1 00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:06,609 I'm Miko Pawlikowski and this is HockeyStick. 2 00:00:06,700 --> 00:00:09,129 Today we're talking about the role of software engineering 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,609 manager, something close to home for virtually everyone in tech. 4 00:00:13,170 --> 00:00:16,379 Whether you're considering becoming one, trying to get better at being 5 00:00:16,379 --> 00:00:20,229 one, or complaining about one to your significant other, there are 6 00:00:20,229 --> 00:00:22,000 good and bad ways of doing it. 7 00:00:22,405 --> 00:00:23,735 And we'll talk about both. 8 00:00:24,145 --> 00:00:28,305 I'm joined by Akanksha Gupta, the author of "Think Like a Software Engineering 9 00:00:28,325 --> 00:00:34,214 Manager", Manning, Engineering Manager at Amazon AWS, and Amazon Bar Raiser, 10 00:00:34,625 --> 00:00:36,714 and a huge advocate of women in tech. 11 00:00:37,404 --> 00:00:41,225 Akanksha previously worked at Robinhood, Audible, and Microsoft. 12 00:00:41,225 --> 00:00:46,085 Welcome to this episode, and thank you for flying HockeyStick. 13 00:00:46,830 --> 00:00:48,820 Akanksha, how are you doing today? 14 00:00:49,768 --> 00:00:53,320 I'm doing great and thank you Miko for inviting me for this podcast. 15 00:00:53,790 --> 00:00:58,110 I'm very excited to talk about your book and to meet the author behind. 16 00:00:58,330 --> 00:01:01,350 "Think like a software engineering manager" is a catchy title. 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,280 the moment I saw that I knew I needed to read the book. 18 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:06,150 Who came up with the title? 19 00:01:06,290 --> 00:01:08,000 Was that yours or is 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,140 that the editing team? 21 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,970 so I did come up with the title so I am a software engineering manager, 22 00:01:13,980 --> 00:01:16,090 and, I've been a software engineer. 23 00:01:16,210 --> 00:01:18,119 That's where I started my career. 24 00:01:18,769 --> 00:01:21,159 I was always passionate about moving to management. 25 00:01:21,210 --> 00:01:25,210 this is, a few of my learnings and experiences coming out live, 26 00:01:25,350 --> 00:01:28,340 especially from that, transition from a software engineer to a 27 00:01:28,340 --> 00:01:29,590 software engineering manager. 28 00:01:30,775 --> 00:01:31,415 Definitely. 29 00:01:31,875 --> 00:01:33,495 And it's a catchy title for sure. 30 00:01:34,375 --> 00:01:38,045 Would you like to tell us a little bit about why you decided to 31 00:01:38,045 --> 00:01:39,705 write a whole book about that? 32 00:01:39,815 --> 00:01:44,135 Was it traumatic enough of an experience that you figured let's help 33 00:01:44,165 --> 00:01:46,725 others Make it a little bit smoother. 34 00:01:47,135 --> 00:01:48,875 What's the story behind the book? 35 00:01:49,690 --> 00:01:50,040 Yes. 36 00:01:50,190 --> 00:01:50,920 absolutely. 37 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,364 the story behind the book is that, my career started as a software engineer. 38 00:01:54,364 --> 00:01:58,264 anytime I change jobs as a software engineer, there were multiple resources, 39 00:01:58,884 --> 00:02:02,204 out there, that can help you with coding and, things around that, for 40 00:02:02,204 --> 00:02:05,814 example, a few top of my mind are lead code and hacker rank, which are 41 00:02:05,814 --> 00:02:07,595 still, very relevant in today's world. 42 00:02:08,285 --> 00:02:13,035 with few years as a software engineer, when I finally decided that my technical 43 00:02:13,035 --> 00:02:16,685 foundation is strong and I want to, make the move to engineering management. 44 00:02:17,244 --> 00:02:21,034 I struggled to find the right set of resources to help me 45 00:02:21,134 --> 00:02:22,444 with, interview preparation. 46 00:02:22,854 --> 00:02:25,364 And also, once I'm in the role, thrive in that role. 47 00:02:25,844 --> 00:02:30,024 there are books around there, like "the manager's path" and, "extreme ownership". 48 00:02:30,024 --> 00:02:31,994 So I won't deny that, there aren't any. 49 00:02:32,149 --> 00:02:33,529 books or blogs out there. 50 00:02:34,029 --> 00:02:38,419 but I really felt that they still, miss that, practical experience, or, 51 00:02:38,419 --> 00:02:43,329 I would want someone to, tell me, what to really expect if I'm in that role. 52 00:02:43,909 --> 00:02:48,709 so all my, struggles and anxieties, were really the driving force, 53 00:02:48,839 --> 00:02:50,449 behind putting this book together. 54 00:02:50,979 --> 00:02:55,969 so this also, covers some of my interview preparation notes and, how I went about 55 00:02:55,989 --> 00:03:00,709 really using my experience from one job and translating it to, the other 56 00:03:00,709 --> 00:03:05,799 job really, helping others out there, who are in a similar situation like 57 00:03:05,799 --> 00:03:10,599 me, first of all, thinking whether, this is the right move for them. 58 00:03:10,649 --> 00:03:12,489 and, how do you treat it? 59 00:03:12,489 --> 00:03:15,549 you don't want it to be a one way decision, not everybody's 60 00:03:15,579 --> 00:03:16,589 going to be successful. 61 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,029 from a software engineer to a software engineering manager. 62 00:03:19,029 --> 00:03:24,429 So really understanding that differences, doing that introspection: will I be good 63 00:03:24,489 --> 00:03:26,744 at that role if I were to take it, right? 64 00:03:27,294 --> 00:03:30,994 So it's more targeted at people who consider making the jump, rather 65 00:03:30,994 --> 00:03:33,344 than the people who already have? 66 00:03:33,794 --> 00:03:35,414 Is that a correct assessment? 67 00:03:36,159 --> 00:03:40,979 so it covers both aspects of it, but yeah, it definitely, helps people who 68 00:03:40,979 --> 00:03:44,739 are also, thinking about that move and that's exactly, what chapter two is all 69 00:03:44,739 --> 00:03:49,049 about, understanding, that transition and making sure, that's good for you. 70 00:03:49,449 --> 00:03:52,779 Once you are in the role, it also provides, all the experiences 71 00:03:52,779 --> 00:03:55,749 and nuggets of how you should be thriving at that role. 72 00:03:56,219 --> 00:03:59,929 the target audiences, software engineers thinking about that role. 73 00:04:00,319 --> 00:04:04,269 pretty new, engineering managers in the role and, trying to navigate, all 74 00:04:04,279 --> 00:04:09,779 the complexities around it and also the experienced EMS, you know, who want to 75 00:04:09,779 --> 00:04:11,569 learn new and, grow to their next level. 76 00:04:11,879 --> 00:04:17,549 So it covers all the aspects of it. 77 00:04:18,434 --> 00:04:19,774 let's uncover some of that. 78 00:04:19,864 --> 00:04:23,404 I think for a lot of people who listen to this, there's going to be a healthy, 79 00:04:23,464 --> 00:04:28,014 good chunk who are actually software engineers or some kind of related 80 00:04:28,014 --> 00:04:30,604 field, doing as a day job day to day. 81 00:04:31,034 --> 00:04:35,914 So I think what you just described, that decision of whether to make that move 82 00:04:35,934 --> 00:04:42,294 or the perception of that being seen maybe as the only career progression 83 00:04:42,324 --> 00:04:46,114 route, is definitely something that a lot of the audience will be familiar 84 00:04:46,154 --> 00:04:48,434 with and will really hit close to home. 85 00:04:48,944 --> 00:04:50,204 So maybe let's start there. 86 00:04:51,424 --> 00:04:55,954 I was happy to see that you addressed the question of promotion versus 87 00:04:55,954 --> 00:04:58,544 lateral move, for engineering managers. 88 00:04:58,544 --> 00:05:03,494 And I think this is this perennial question of the career progression to 89 00:05:03,524 --> 00:05:07,024 maybe staff versus, engineering manager. 90 00:05:07,774 --> 00:05:11,784 Can you talk a little bit about how you thought about this when 91 00:05:11,894 --> 00:05:16,544 you were writing the book and what advice you were given around that? 92 00:05:17,072 --> 00:05:20,112 So I think this is, like moving from software engineer to a software 93 00:05:20,112 --> 00:05:24,332 engineer manager, this being treated as a promotion is like a very common 94 00:05:24,342 --> 00:05:28,632 misconception, fortunately in all the, big firms and even the, medium sized 95 00:05:28,892 --> 00:05:32,542 tech firms that I have worked with, there are always two career ladders. 96 00:05:32,672 --> 00:05:36,172 One where as an individual contributor slash software 97 00:05:36,282 --> 00:05:38,942 engineer, you can grow in that role. 98 00:05:39,257 --> 00:05:43,672 focus on technology without worrying about, managing people, and taking care 99 00:05:43,672 --> 00:05:48,522 of the people aspect and, if you really want a combination of both, which is 100 00:05:48,592 --> 00:05:51,892 technology and people, you can, move to an engineering management role. 101 00:05:52,422 --> 00:05:55,302 obviously you start your career as a, initial entry level or 102 00:05:55,302 --> 00:05:56,642 a junior software engineer. 103 00:05:57,012 --> 00:06:01,132 And as you grow up on the role, there's always a chance to, laterally move 104 00:06:01,722 --> 00:06:06,392 to a subsequent, position where you can start managing people for those, 105 00:06:06,602 --> 00:06:10,432 who, would like to continue as a software engineer and, continue on 106 00:06:10,432 --> 00:06:14,522 that individual contributor track as you, definitely said there's positions 107 00:06:14,542 --> 00:06:19,002 like, software engineer or principal engineer, that we commonly have in Amazon. 108 00:06:19,582 --> 00:06:21,452 So you definitely have a track for it. 109 00:06:22,047 --> 00:06:25,917 And, if someone feels like, Hey, I want to move to the people aspect, 110 00:06:25,937 --> 00:06:29,847 then you have the engineering manager, a senior director, VP, like 111 00:06:29,847 --> 00:06:31,687 that sort of a career trajectory. 112 00:06:32,187 --> 00:06:33,587 So in my opinion, 113 00:06:33,612 --> 00:06:37,512 doing that lateral move is not at all a promotion. 114 00:06:37,512 --> 00:06:41,282 And that's what I have seen in, the tech firms, It's more of 115 00:06:41,312 --> 00:06:45,242 what motivates you and, what will make you successful and happy? 116 00:06:45,702 --> 00:06:49,932 another thing I'll call out is that again, it's not a one way door. 117 00:06:50,312 --> 00:06:54,362 I have personally seen in my friend circle, people who moved from an engineer 118 00:06:54,362 --> 00:06:59,472 to a engineering manager, did not like the role or maybe did not thrive and then 119 00:06:59,482 --> 00:07:02,142 moved back as a individual contributor. 120 00:07:02,152 --> 00:07:04,702 So I've definitely seen that happen. 121 00:07:05,172 --> 00:07:09,542 it's easy to do at a level which is closer to where you do the lateral move 122 00:07:10,592 --> 00:07:15,222 versus, someone like very senior VP trying to, move as an individual contributor. 123 00:07:15,222 --> 00:07:20,842 those can also happen, but rare situations, it's mostly, closer to a 124 00:07:20,882 --> 00:07:25,182 senior software engineer moving to a, senior software engineering manager role. 125 00:07:25,282 --> 00:07:28,462 I think it's interesting what you just mentioned about being able to go back 126 00:07:28,462 --> 00:07:32,357 and I'm trying to scan my memory how many times I've actually seen this 127 00:07:32,367 --> 00:07:38,787 in action and I can count it on one hand only, people who, stayed at the 128 00:07:38,787 --> 00:07:43,907 same time, made, an impact as a people person as a manager and also kept 129 00:07:43,907 --> 00:07:48,887 themselves, sharp enough and up to date enough for long enough period that 130 00:07:48,887 --> 00:07:53,692 they could go and do something without feeling a bit too embarrassed about it. 131 00:07:54,092 --> 00:07:58,262 but I think like you said, it's possible, but it's definitely not easy. 132 00:07:58,302 --> 00:08:02,662 And, I think it's more of an exception than a rule, to be honest with you. 133 00:08:02,912 --> 00:08:08,882 So you mentioned that in the ideal world, and from your experience in AWS, this are 134 00:08:08,942 --> 00:08:15,092 two paths that are more or less equivalent in terms of prestige, and I guess money 135 00:08:15,102 --> 00:08:17,592 really is the quiet part set out loud. 136 00:08:17,672 --> 00:08:22,602 which is, a motivation for a lot of people understandably, but is it 137 00:08:22,642 --> 00:08:25,482 really true for the majority of time? 138 00:08:25,542 --> 00:08:30,622 Or is it more of an idea world situation and a few places get it right. 139 00:08:30,652 --> 00:08:34,842 But on average, it's probably not a hundred percent true. 140 00:08:34,932 --> 00:08:35,902 What would you say to that? 141 00:08:36,309 --> 00:08:38,409 it's not a universal rule for sure. 142 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,019 the tech firms are definitely following it, right? 143 00:08:41,019 --> 00:08:46,229 If you talk about, Fangmula, there are still, few, I would say, government 144 00:08:46,229 --> 00:08:49,409 agencies and things around that, that definitely don't follow this 145 00:08:49,409 --> 00:08:53,269 universal rule, where, having that manager in your title can be more 146 00:08:53,279 --> 00:08:55,099 of a prestige, as you said, right? 147 00:08:55,149 --> 00:08:56,939 even though, the pay might be similar. 148 00:08:57,459 --> 00:09:01,389 but yeah, In the software tech sector, I'm definitely seeing these to be, pretty 149 00:09:01,389 --> 00:09:06,369 much at par in terms of, the prestige and obviously the money aspect of it. 150 00:09:07,404 --> 00:09:09,064 That's great to hear. 151 00:09:09,334 --> 00:09:14,984 So let's move to what happens once you take the plunge, right? 152 00:09:15,064 --> 00:09:20,114 You've succeeded so far as an individual contributor. 153 00:09:20,574 --> 00:09:21,544 You were selected. 154 00:09:21,874 --> 00:09:23,814 you were the junior person. 155 00:09:23,844 --> 00:09:25,554 Eventually became senior person. 156 00:09:25,984 --> 00:09:31,764 And at some point you decide to take the dive and become a manager. 157 00:09:32,544 --> 00:09:33,544 And that's a big change. 158 00:09:33,544 --> 00:09:34,864 Why is it such a big change? 159 00:09:34,987 --> 00:09:38,587 So the biggest change, the moment you take that role, obviously 160 00:09:38,647 --> 00:09:40,297 technology will continue, right? 161 00:09:40,297 --> 00:09:44,587 You have to be, very close to, the code itself and the product. 162 00:09:45,037 --> 00:09:48,737 what changes, overnight is the people aspect of it, right? 163 00:09:49,247 --> 00:09:51,357 You are now managing people. 164 00:09:51,447 --> 00:09:56,297 your success is the success of your team and your team members, right? 165 00:09:56,797 --> 00:10:01,867 you have to be very much, vested in not just your career growth, but the career 166 00:10:01,867 --> 00:10:03,467 growth of people reporting to you. 167 00:10:03,477 --> 00:10:07,582 You will be, on day to day Basis or weekly basis would be, doing 168 00:10:07,582 --> 00:10:11,402 one on one conversations, career discussions, helping a junior engineer 169 00:10:11,442 --> 00:10:13,122 grow to a senior software engineer. 170 00:10:13,122 --> 00:10:18,912 that entire people aspect that, comes with the engineering manager role is something, 171 00:10:18,922 --> 00:10:23,832 that, any new engineering manager has to learn, grow and really hone that skill. 172 00:10:25,087 --> 00:10:29,397 Yeah, and on top of that, you have the added problem that yesterday 173 00:10:29,397 --> 00:10:32,737 you were all peers on the same team and all of a sudden now people are 174 00:10:32,737 --> 00:10:34,367 supposed to report to you, right? 175 00:10:34,387 --> 00:10:35,807 Which is also not easy. 176 00:10:36,427 --> 00:10:40,237 what does your book offer in terms of advice for dealing 177 00:10:40,237 --> 00:10:48,302 with that particular problem? 178 00:10:48,372 --> 00:10:52,472 going back in my time at Audible, I was a senior software engineer and 179 00:10:52,542 --> 00:10:55,912 that's where I made the transition to a software engineering manager. 180 00:10:56,412 --> 00:11:01,332 And, I became the manager for a team where I was myself a software engineer. 181 00:11:01,332 --> 00:11:05,092 So obviously, as you said, my peers were someone who were asked to 182 00:11:05,112 --> 00:11:06,782 report to me in the coming few days. 183 00:11:07,352 --> 00:11:11,892 so one strategy, that worked was, Taking it slow, it wasn't like a 184 00:11:12,002 --> 00:11:14,132 cold turkey change immediately. 185 00:11:14,572 --> 00:11:19,002 so I worked with my manager to have a good transition period where, 186 00:11:19,125 --> 00:11:22,325 Instead of they directly reporting to me on the first day. 187 00:11:22,705 --> 00:11:27,315 I tried to build relationships, obviously I had relationships as peers 188 00:11:27,335 --> 00:11:28,970 working with them together in a team. 189 00:11:28,970 --> 00:11:32,460 I started spending more time doing one on one conversations with them, 190 00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:36,340 trying to understand, what works for them, what doesn't work for them. 191 00:11:36,690 --> 00:11:39,990 any type of things we can change in the team just to make sure, that 192 00:11:40,050 --> 00:11:41,460 we are more productive as a team. 193 00:11:41,490 --> 00:11:44,800 So just, building that relationship one on one, with the team 194 00:11:44,810 --> 00:11:47,050 members, was very helpful. 195 00:11:47,580 --> 00:11:51,510 and again, you're not taking that transition slow, right? 196 00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:58,050 So I think I definitely use good 3 months or so before my actual transition 197 00:11:58,050 --> 00:12:02,820 to, use that time to just understand, people's motivations, how I can help them. 198 00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:07,550 another, thing that I kept in mind was being a patient listener, right? 199 00:12:08,020 --> 00:12:11,350 this is also something that I learned that, as a software engineer, you can be 200 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,820 absolutely vocal and, share your opinions. 201 00:12:14,380 --> 00:12:17,810 But as an engineering manager, you want to hear others, right? 202 00:12:17,810 --> 00:12:22,280 You want to understand where is it that you can go and help them, right? 203 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,770 that sort of a skill set was something that took time to, get used to, 204 00:12:26,170 --> 00:12:30,060 but, observing from the side and, making sure you're not jumping on 205 00:12:30,530 --> 00:12:31,960 anything and everything, right? 206 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,040 so that's what, that's the strategy. 207 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:38,420 And that's, on similar lines is what I cover in the book that, small nuggets 208 00:12:38,540 --> 00:12:43,810 that you need to change that can really help, others believe in you, trust you 209 00:12:43,810 --> 00:12:46,075 as a leader will take you a long way. 210 00:12:46,975 --> 00:12:49,965 Yeah, I think that definitely helps with that discomfort. 211 00:12:50,605 --> 00:12:56,265 Another thing that I think I've seen in basically everybody I know that made this 212 00:12:56,285 --> 00:13:01,675 transition is that Until then, you had a very concrete way of demonstrating, 213 00:13:01,845 --> 00:13:06,775 that you've delivered what you said you would, of criteria of success, and 214 00:13:06,775 --> 00:13:11,625 you deliver your tests, they all pass, it's all, checklist, and then all of 215 00:13:11,625 --> 00:13:16,695 a sudden, you got much more fluffy goals, oh, is the team doing okay? 216 00:13:16,725 --> 00:13:18,385 Is the morality nice? 217 00:13:18,385 --> 00:13:23,255 And it's much harder to have automated unit tests to verify your team morality. 218 00:13:23,255 --> 00:13:23,269 Okay. 219 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:24,360 absolutely right. 220 00:13:24,892 --> 00:13:27,662 is that also something that you cover in the book? 221 00:13:27,842 --> 00:13:30,612 Are there any hints that you can give to people on that? 222 00:13:30,612 --> 00:13:30,964 If 223 00:13:31,257 --> 00:13:35,467 Yes, your entire success metrics change, right? 224 00:13:35,497 --> 00:13:39,647 As an individual contributor, your success metrics could be, you leading 225 00:13:39,647 --> 00:13:43,817 the projects, making sure, that we are hitting the deadlines, obviously the 226 00:13:43,817 --> 00:13:48,087 code quality for which, we have a lot of automated tools to, kind of test that. 227 00:13:48,677 --> 00:13:50,917 The moment you become a software engineering manager, 228 00:13:50,917 --> 00:13:52,087 your success metrics change. 229 00:13:52,307 --> 00:13:54,867 As I said earlier, your success is literally your team success. 230 00:13:55,847 --> 00:13:59,487 so not only are you responsible for making sure the projects, hit 231 00:13:59,487 --> 00:14:00,927 the timeline in the right way. 232 00:14:01,397 --> 00:14:03,227 the teams were all should be high. 233 00:14:04,212 --> 00:14:09,012 One thing I can say is that, it's not completely fluff, right? 234 00:14:09,052 --> 00:14:12,522 at least I've seen that a lot of it can, be clearly objectified. 235 00:14:13,137 --> 00:14:15,347 so few forums could be, doing. 236 00:14:16,047 --> 00:14:19,607 frequent, surveys to just check off, how the people are doing. 237 00:14:20,047 --> 00:14:23,127 And this is pretty much a practice that I'm seeing, majority of 238 00:14:23,127 --> 00:14:24,687 the tech firms that follow. 239 00:14:25,237 --> 00:14:28,477 so yeah, making sure that, how's the work in general? 240 00:14:28,477 --> 00:14:29,427 Are they happy? 241 00:14:29,657 --> 00:14:33,232 This also helps, not just an immediate engineering manager to 242 00:14:33,232 --> 00:14:36,762 know how the team is doing, but also like the HR to understand, how 243 00:14:37,042 --> 00:14:40,942 are the benefits and compensation, everything is, at the industry bar. 244 00:14:40,942 --> 00:14:43,352 So I think, it helps in multiple ways. 245 00:14:43,932 --> 00:14:48,402 all those factors are very difficult but there are ways 246 00:14:48,402 --> 00:14:50,332 where, you can objectify, all that. 247 00:14:50,862 --> 00:14:54,572 so I also covered the aspect of, as an engineering manager, it's also important 248 00:14:54,622 --> 00:14:57,792 to focus on engineering and operational excellence in your team, right? 249 00:14:58,192 --> 00:15:01,372 your team members cannot just be like, pushing code like it has 250 00:15:01,372 --> 00:15:05,237 to be good quality code that is, logical, maintainable for the future. 251 00:15:05,587 --> 00:15:09,617 people are making sure that there is stress on documentation so that, tomorrow 252 00:15:09,617 --> 00:15:14,037 if you have a new hire in the team, it's not spending, months and months just 253 00:15:14,037 --> 00:15:15,507 to train them and bring them on board. 254 00:15:15,727 --> 00:15:17,587 yeah, definitely, covering all that aspects. 255 00:15:18,587 --> 00:15:19,007 Okay. 256 00:15:19,787 --> 00:15:24,557 So let's spend a few minutes now to try to paint the picture of what a 257 00:15:24,557 --> 00:15:28,027 good software engineering manager actually looks like in practice. 258 00:15:28,027 --> 00:15:33,367 we already gave some hints and we talked about the early, transition details. 259 00:15:34,257 --> 00:15:40,677 But if we go back to first principles, what are the most crucial things that 260 00:15:40,677 --> 00:15:42,817 make a good software engineering manager? 261 00:15:43,127 --> 00:15:47,127 And what are the bad ones that make a terrible one? 262 00:15:47,730 --> 00:15:51,550 as a good engineering manager, of course, you have to be a people person, 263 00:15:51,610 --> 00:15:53,720 You have to put others, before you. 264 00:15:54,260 --> 00:15:58,590 so any good engineering manager in my head would be, Driving career 265 00:15:58,590 --> 00:16:00,890 discussions, doing frequent one on ones. 266 00:16:01,050 --> 00:16:05,100 And when I say frequent, obviously, weekly or bi weekly, depending on the team size, 267 00:16:05,810 --> 00:16:07,910 mentoring and coaching people, right? 268 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,970 so this would be really, important for me and, having that, emotional, intelligence, 269 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,290 the empathy towards, the team members. 270 00:16:15,610 --> 00:16:16,580 So I think that's one. 271 00:16:16,580 --> 00:16:21,375 the second would be you walk the talk as an engineering manager. 272 00:16:21,375 --> 00:16:24,525 I personally would not ask anyone in my team to do something 273 00:16:24,535 --> 00:16:25,625 that, I wouldn't do myself. 274 00:16:26,365 --> 00:16:31,843 So really leading by example, there was a point, at Amazon where, there was a 275 00:16:31,843 --> 00:16:36,653 lot of focus on using AWS technologies in our day to day, work and, focusing 276 00:16:36,663 --> 00:16:38,433 on, what's the latest and the greatest. 277 00:16:39,163 --> 00:16:42,743 So I knew, and I could see that, in the technical roadmap coming six 278 00:16:42,863 --> 00:16:47,233 months, we would be using some new AWS technologies, which obviously 279 00:16:47,233 --> 00:16:50,533 my team doesn't have expertise and even I don't have expertise on. 280 00:16:51,023 --> 00:16:56,143 So my goal was to get my team members, AWS certified, to make sure we are, 281 00:16:56,183 --> 00:17:00,283 geared ahead of time, before we get into the real practical projects. 282 00:17:00,943 --> 00:17:04,253 what I did was I went ahead, started exploring about the various 283 00:17:04,283 --> 00:17:10,043 certifications, myself took the time to study, get AWS certified, and then 284 00:17:10,053 --> 00:17:14,143 use that example in one of my team meeting to really motivate the team to, 285 00:17:14,153 --> 00:17:16,883 learn and get to, get AWS certified. 286 00:17:17,053 --> 00:17:21,943 leading by example, really help my team members to understand, the importance. 287 00:17:21,943 --> 00:17:25,023 I could share my learnings and what new, knowledge that I gained 288 00:17:25,293 --> 00:17:26,403 as part of the entire process. 289 00:17:27,123 --> 00:17:29,623 I could also, point them to a lot of learning resources. 290 00:17:29,713 --> 00:17:32,893 And then, out of the eight engineers, like five of them, really Did 291 00:17:32,893 --> 00:17:35,483 pursue the AWS certification. 292 00:17:35,533 --> 00:17:39,213 a good software engineering manager should definitely, lead by example. 293 00:17:40,123 --> 00:17:42,603 I think that these are the main things that I think from the people 294 00:17:42,603 --> 00:17:46,043 aspect of it, and then, Jumping to the project aspect, right? 295 00:17:46,043 --> 00:17:50,473 they should be, organized and should definitely understand the value of time. 296 00:17:50,893 --> 00:17:55,413 because once they are in the role, they will be like the main point of contact to, 297 00:17:55,413 --> 00:17:57,513 ensure a successful delivery of a project. 298 00:17:57,563 --> 00:18:00,943 taking care of like things like resourcing, making sure, you are, 299 00:18:01,023 --> 00:18:04,583 connecting the right dots, someone who's understanding the motivations 300 00:18:04,583 --> 00:18:07,563 of their engineers and, tagging them to the right set of projects. 301 00:18:07,623 --> 00:18:10,803 that comes as part of, the whole project delivery execution. 302 00:18:11,323 --> 00:18:15,193 and in this process, you're building relationships, not just with 303 00:18:15,193 --> 00:18:18,983 your team members, but also your cross functional partners, right? 304 00:18:18,983 --> 00:18:21,813 You would be working with product managers, technical program 305 00:18:21,813 --> 00:18:24,183 managers, QA, UX resources. 306 00:18:24,283 --> 00:18:28,593 thinking holistically about that team, is something, that a good engineering 307 00:18:28,593 --> 00:18:34,653 manager will always keep in mind, keep people on track, recognize everyone, 308 00:18:34,913 --> 00:18:38,183 of the work that they are doing, and it doesn't have to be always, 309 00:18:38,183 --> 00:18:42,333 a compensation based, recognition, which is not, always, possible. 310 00:18:42,903 --> 00:18:45,873 So just, thanking people for all their work and acknowledging 311 00:18:45,893 --> 00:18:47,483 that, we value them as an asset. 312 00:18:47,483 --> 00:18:48,773 So that's really important. 313 00:18:49,553 --> 00:18:53,123 and I think, the next aspect would be the whole process, right? 314 00:18:53,483 --> 00:18:54,773 doing it the right way. 315 00:18:54,803 --> 00:18:57,523 As I said, you are thinking about engineering excellence. 316 00:18:57,523 --> 00:19:01,698 You're thinking operationally that the code is of high quality and maintainable. 317 00:19:02,268 --> 00:19:05,778 tomorrow, if you know a particular service that you own has to 318 00:19:05,778 --> 00:19:07,518 be transitioned to a new team. 319 00:19:07,568 --> 00:19:09,888 That transition should be as seamless as possible. 320 00:19:11,058 --> 00:19:14,518 So I think, these would be the main skill sets, or things that a good 321 00:19:14,518 --> 00:19:16,318 engineering manager would keep in mind. 322 00:19:16,908 --> 00:19:21,398 yeah, I definitely missed, the whole hiring and attrition piece in the people 323 00:19:21,398 --> 00:19:26,758 aspect where, you have to make sure you're hiring, the greatest people, 324 00:19:26,758 --> 00:19:30,218 you're maintaining a hiring bar, you're not always thinking about, Oh, 325 00:19:30,218 --> 00:19:31,888 I'm hiring this person for my team. 326 00:19:31,898 --> 00:19:33,358 You're hiring it for the company. 327 00:19:33,398 --> 00:19:36,268 So it should be a skill set match for your team, but also 328 00:19:36,268 --> 00:19:37,938 a culture fit for your company. 329 00:19:38,208 --> 00:19:38,528 what else? 330 00:19:38,618 --> 00:19:38,808 Yeah. 331 00:19:38,998 --> 00:19:41,438 Attrition, that is something that will happen. 332 00:19:41,488 --> 00:19:45,768 gearing up and being proactive about it, are the important things, or, 333 00:19:45,818 --> 00:19:49,538 Definitely that distinguishes a good engineering manager from a bad. 334 00:19:50,638 --> 00:19:50,948 Okay. 335 00:19:51,318 --> 00:19:55,758 I think we can go back to basically hiring attrition and performance 336 00:19:55,758 --> 00:19:57,688 management, maybe in a little bit. 337 00:19:58,588 --> 00:20:02,778 I'm curious as you are researching the book and preparing, what were some of 338 00:20:02,778 --> 00:20:07,808 the worst examples of what you've seen people do as engineering managers? 339 00:20:08,428 --> 00:20:14,068 What's the most, important to avoid things and mistakes that people do? 340 00:20:14,448 --> 00:20:19,718 the biggest mistake I saw was people using, the career discussions to be 341 00:20:19,728 --> 00:20:25,843 more of project check-in, those 30 minutes or so are for, you to connect 342 00:20:25,843 --> 00:20:31,063 with your team member, focus on their, motivations, opportunities and, have an 343 00:20:31,073 --> 00:20:33,083 actionable item for their career growth. 344 00:20:33,663 --> 00:20:37,223 I myself have, sometimes, given the project timeline. 345 00:20:37,528 --> 00:20:40,228 brought like project discussions as part of one on ones. 346 00:20:40,228 --> 00:20:42,888 But, obviously taking a step back from that. 347 00:20:43,178 --> 00:20:46,348 So I think, the worst mistake and engineering manager could do is use, 348 00:20:46,378 --> 00:20:49,458 career discussions or the one on one meetings to make it more of a 349 00:20:49,458 --> 00:20:54,608 project check in and, use the entire time for that sort of a discussion 350 00:20:54,658 --> 00:20:58,658 versus, focusing on the real piece of it, which is helping someone grow. 351 00:21:00,298 --> 00:21:02,228 Okay, I'll take that. 352 00:21:02,588 --> 00:21:06,458 I've seen a fair share of that being done and I agree. 353 00:21:06,498 --> 00:21:11,998 That's probably a pretty bad newbie mistake. 354 00:21:12,798 --> 00:21:15,388 What about some good examples. 355 00:21:15,438 --> 00:21:21,558 Can you think of anybody who inspired you and from whom you learned a lot, that 356 00:21:21,718 --> 00:21:25,598 ended up being the foundation for what you think about software engineering manager? 357 00:21:25,598 --> 00:21:26,748 These 358 00:21:26,898 --> 00:21:27,148 yes. 359 00:21:27,248 --> 00:21:31,908 So I think, in my years, I've always observed, my managers and my leaders, 360 00:21:32,388 --> 00:21:36,788 with different, leadership styles, to see, like what, what would make a 361 00:21:36,798 --> 00:21:38,798 good engineering manager versus bad. 362 00:21:38,798 --> 00:21:43,818 the way someone executes, that also helped me, make my set of, principles, right? 363 00:21:43,818 --> 00:21:44,118 Okay. 364 00:21:44,118 --> 00:21:45,818 these are the things I should be doing. 365 00:21:45,818 --> 00:21:47,528 And these are the things I shouldn't be doing. 366 00:21:48,068 --> 00:21:53,098 no particular person in mind, but, Having observed multiple leaders, and it's 367 00:21:53,158 --> 00:21:56,728 not just, people up in the hierarchy, like also some of my peers, there have 368 00:21:56,728 --> 00:21:59,598 been instances where I have learned from, my peer software engineering 369 00:21:59,608 --> 00:22:04,888 managers, personally, delegation is one thing that comes, top of mind, right? 370 00:22:04,928 --> 00:22:08,643 that's another unique skill set that you as an engineering 371 00:22:08,643 --> 00:22:10,263 manager have to, learn and hone. 372 00:22:10,743 --> 00:22:14,243 and I can, definitely, I feel comfortable saying that every new software engineering 373 00:22:14,253 --> 00:22:18,193 manager, like that's one thing that majority of them struggle with. 374 00:22:18,273 --> 00:22:23,223 At least, from my experiences as I mentor other, engineering managers. 375 00:22:23,273 --> 00:22:28,023 So delegation is something, where people struggle with and in my head is 376 00:22:28,023 --> 00:22:29,723 a very important skill set to learn. 377 00:22:31,023 --> 00:22:34,513 Why do you think people struggle so much with delegation? 378 00:22:35,103 --> 00:22:37,093 it's just a human psychology, right? 379 00:22:37,483 --> 00:22:41,623 you have that, 'I would do everything myself' mindset, right? 380 00:22:41,963 --> 00:22:44,553 Especially for folks, who were a software engineer, they might 381 00:22:44,553 --> 00:22:48,593 think, 'Oh, if I do this task, I can definitely do this faster', right? 382 00:22:49,143 --> 00:22:53,213 Versus, trying to teach someone, spending that, knowledge transfer 383 00:22:53,293 --> 00:22:54,953 time and getting them up to speed. 384 00:22:55,353 --> 00:22:59,808 What people, definitely, miss in that is that as you are teaching someone 385 00:22:59,808 --> 00:23:03,588 else, you are definitely removing yourself as a bottleneck and also 386 00:23:03,588 --> 00:23:05,398 having that multiplier effect, right? 387 00:23:05,918 --> 00:23:08,788 Going back to your question, having that mindset of, I want 388 00:23:08,788 --> 00:23:12,938 to do everything myself, and be like that sole knowledge bearer. 389 00:23:13,328 --> 00:23:17,588 And the other aspect that I've also seen, which is very interesting is, people who 390 00:23:17,588 --> 00:23:19,658 are super hardworking, they can sometimes. 391 00:23:20,123 --> 00:23:23,923 Feel guilty about, offloading work to others, and that's 392 00:23:23,923 --> 00:23:27,463 also another aspect where, they might struggle with delegation. 393 00:23:27,603 --> 00:23:30,013 Have you seen this scenario? 394 00:23:30,633 --> 00:23:32,303 Imagine, you're an IC. 395 00:23:32,303 --> 00:23:34,343 You are very good at what you're doing. 396 00:23:34,343 --> 00:23:35,693 You continue doing some work. 397 00:23:35,693 --> 00:23:40,663 And then one day, You're told,' okay, now you're supposed to delegate that' 398 00:23:40,723 --> 00:23:45,003 and you delegate that and all of a sudden you realize, okay, I'm not that special. 399 00:23:45,003 --> 00:23:48,943 Someone else just can learn this and can also do that. 400 00:23:48,993 --> 00:23:55,003 Is that also part of the equation that I guess selfish, 'I want 401 00:23:55,013 --> 00:23:56,953 that recognition from doing that'. 402 00:23:57,033 --> 00:24:01,953 And now how do I justify me being here if someone else is doing that? 403 00:24:02,293 --> 00:24:03,963 that's exactly what I covered in the first one. 404 00:24:03,983 --> 00:24:08,333 you want to be the sole knowledge bearer, to, continue to keep your 405 00:24:08,363 --> 00:24:10,753 prestige and, like that special aspect. 406 00:24:11,283 --> 00:24:16,093 but in my opinion, as you are growing in the role, a junior engineer having 407 00:24:16,113 --> 00:24:21,393 that mindset might be okay, but, anyone who's senior in the role, should 408 00:24:21,463 --> 00:24:25,313 definitely, use the power of delegation and stay away from that mindset. 409 00:24:25,833 --> 00:24:28,393 You can be good at doing a particular job. 410 00:24:28,393 --> 00:24:30,223 you would be, till six months, one year. 411 00:24:30,233 --> 00:24:31,323 You can be a rock star. 412 00:24:31,323 --> 00:24:35,248 you're absolutely good at it, but there would be a point where you also need to 413 00:24:35,338 --> 00:24:37,908 start growing to the next level, right? 414 00:24:37,978 --> 00:24:40,788 And what got you here will not take you further. 415 00:24:41,228 --> 00:24:43,023 So that's exactly where. 416 00:24:43,323 --> 00:24:48,113 you need to prepare someone else in your role so that you can step up and, 417 00:24:48,123 --> 00:24:52,313 pick bigger challenges, Maybe you were thinking about like a team wide problem 418 00:24:52,313 --> 00:24:56,243 all this while and now you want to, scale yourself, think about something 419 00:24:56,513 --> 00:24:58,653 across team or across organization. 420 00:24:58,733 --> 00:25:02,743 until you free yourself up from the usual tasks that you've done, and 421 00:25:02,743 --> 00:25:06,503 you've been good at you cannot scale and have that, multiplier effect. 422 00:25:06,736 --> 00:25:08,786 What else is crucial? 423 00:25:08,866 --> 00:25:14,616 I think you hinted previously at shaping the team by hiring and 424 00:25:14,686 --> 00:25:20,186 managing attrition and delivering performance management and all of that. 425 00:25:20,186 --> 00:25:22,423 So maybe let's jump into that now. 426 00:25:22,473 --> 00:25:26,293 What's the most important in all of that? 427 00:25:26,323 --> 00:25:30,503 where do you usually start, when you mentor some new, 428 00:25:30,603 --> 00:25:32,233 software engineering managers? 429 00:25:32,433 --> 00:25:37,853 I think in the hiring aspect of it, the first, principle in my head is to start 430 00:25:37,853 --> 00:25:39,703 with, why do you need to hire, right? 431 00:25:40,163 --> 00:25:43,343 You need to understand, what is the motivation, Why can't the 432 00:25:43,343 --> 00:25:47,243 individual, workforce continue to, deliver, what you're expecting? 433 00:25:48,003 --> 00:25:51,653 is it like new set of work or, someone left the team and you 434 00:25:51,663 --> 00:25:53,113 want to, fill that position? 435 00:25:53,673 --> 00:25:56,753 is there a shortage of a particular skill set in your team? 436 00:25:56,753 --> 00:26:01,503 So really understanding the why behind hiring, is step one. 437 00:26:01,723 --> 00:26:04,893 and something, I ask every, software engineer to think 438 00:26:04,913 --> 00:26:06,133 about, as the first step. 439 00:26:06,693 --> 00:26:11,893 Once you know the why, you can absolutely decide how do you want to go about hiring? 440 00:26:11,943 --> 00:26:15,353 and that can also help you understand, what are the forums 441 00:26:15,353 --> 00:26:18,663 or the portals that you should be, reaching out, to, do that hiding. 442 00:26:18,993 --> 00:26:21,883 So that's like the first, principle in my head, like understanding 443 00:26:21,883 --> 00:26:22,993 the reasoning behind it. 444 00:26:23,563 --> 00:26:27,683 and that also helps you justify to the leadership in case you're asking for, 445 00:26:27,713 --> 00:26:30,053 more, open head count rules, right? 446 00:26:30,053 --> 00:26:31,983 what's the justification behind that role? 447 00:26:32,653 --> 00:26:37,183 once you have that, the second step is to figure out, are you always going to 448 00:26:37,183 --> 00:26:42,383 focus on, the external hiring, which is hiring folks from inside, or, you want to 449 00:26:42,383 --> 00:26:44,503 grow someone internally into that role? 450 00:26:44,983 --> 00:26:47,763 just throwing out an example, let's say you have an engineer in 451 00:26:47,793 --> 00:26:50,933 the team who's, Always been very interested in the product side of it. 452 00:26:50,933 --> 00:26:53,953 And, focusing on the product success metrics. 453 00:26:54,543 --> 00:26:59,523 and you don't have a product manager think about can you help this person grow 454 00:26:59,813 --> 00:27:04,723 knowing their long term, motivations to be in a product manager role, into that role. 455 00:27:04,783 --> 00:27:07,953 these sort of things to keep in mind where, it's not always like 456 00:27:07,953 --> 00:27:11,983 the de facto, external hiring, but also keeping in mind the internal, 457 00:27:11,983 --> 00:27:13,793 career motivations of internal folks. 458 00:27:13,823 --> 00:27:16,583 so that's another, key skill set and something that, people 459 00:27:16,603 --> 00:27:18,593 miss as they think about hiring. 460 00:27:19,513 --> 00:27:21,233 then, as you are hiring. 461 00:27:21,415 --> 00:27:25,065 Also understanding, are you hiring, for an existing team, which can 462 00:27:25,065 --> 00:27:28,945 be, obviously your team, or are you trying to set up a team from scratch? 463 00:27:28,995 --> 00:27:32,045 Because these two scenarios will completely be different, right? 464 00:27:32,485 --> 00:27:37,425 If you're trying to, hire someone for your existing team, you need to keep, the 465 00:27:37,635 --> 00:27:42,480 existing skill set of the team members in mind, the team culture, because this 466 00:27:42,540 --> 00:27:45,830 new person is going to join and, they need to gel up with the existing set of 467 00:27:45,870 --> 00:27:51,215 employees, on the contrary, if you're trying to, hire for a team that you're 468 00:27:51,255 --> 00:27:55,355 building from scratch, you need to be very clear with the tenets or mission of 469 00:27:55,355 --> 00:27:59,155 this new team, because that's what you're going to use to, sell to the new set 470 00:27:59,195 --> 00:28:00,825 of, members that you're going to hire. 471 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,000 and also understand, that you want to hire a mix of junior and software engineer. 472 00:28:05,030 --> 00:28:09,100 balancing all that skill set, and then these are the new set of people who 473 00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:10,910 are going to define the team culture. 474 00:28:11,010 --> 00:28:15,480 I think, in both ways, there's like a, Pros and cons, so you have to, keep 475 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,920 all these factors proactively in mind, as you are thinking about hiring. 476 00:28:20,070 --> 00:28:23,750 So these are the fundamentals that I also cover as part of my book. 477 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,340 And there's an entire chapter that talks about hiring, that 478 00:28:27,340 --> 00:28:28,880 goes into these level of details. 479 00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:34,650 another common thing is that, you want to be focused on the diversity and inclusion 480 00:28:34,690 --> 00:28:38,420 piece, At least something that, I have learned in my recent years is make sure 481 00:28:38,420 --> 00:28:42,730 that, the job description you're having should use gender neutral language, right? 482 00:28:42,740 --> 00:28:46,390 the job description should be inviting, you're trying to make 483 00:28:46,390 --> 00:28:47,820 it as inclusive as possible. 484 00:28:48,210 --> 00:28:52,300 So yeah, these are some, good tips that I have learned in my, recent years 485 00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:56,360 and something that, I apply and, I'm sharing with everyone through my book. 486 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,610 What advice do you give for those situations 487 00:28:59,610 --> 00:29:04,040 as important as hiring, attrition is also something that any engineering 488 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,440 manager should, proactively think about. 489 00:29:06,590 --> 00:29:08,790 I feel it's totally inevitable. 490 00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:12,980 especially in given times where, we have, with the whole pandemic, people 491 00:29:12,980 --> 00:29:16,660 started working from home and now the companies are asking members to come 492 00:29:16,670 --> 00:29:18,160 back with the whole return to office. 493 00:29:19,220 --> 00:29:23,550 so when I think about attrition, It, it can be driven by, two motivations, right? 494 00:29:23,550 --> 00:29:25,484 One could be voluntary, one could be involuntary. 495 00:29:25,484 --> 00:29:28,816 voluntary reasons would be, yes, you have family reasons, one of your 496 00:29:28,816 --> 00:29:32,496 family member is moving or you want to pursue some, higher education. 497 00:29:32,566 --> 00:29:34,616 or you're just not happy with the role, right? 498 00:29:34,936 --> 00:29:39,061 Your company's mission is to do something and you're totally opposite. 499 00:29:39,061 --> 00:29:40,071 you don't have any beliefs. 500 00:29:40,161 --> 00:29:44,381 So there can be a lot of, voluntary reasons, that can, cause attrition. 501 00:29:45,191 --> 00:29:46,571 Compensation is not good. 502 00:29:46,571 --> 00:29:50,211 and then there can be involuntary reasons, Which we've all seen in the 503 00:29:50,211 --> 00:29:55,371 recent times, there can be layoffs or, there's more of a merger and acquisition. 504 00:29:55,371 --> 00:29:58,731 And that also, causes, some of the positions to be, removed. 505 00:29:58,881 --> 00:30:00,951 there's always a combination of these two. 506 00:30:01,041 --> 00:30:06,621 when we think about attrition now, as a software engineering manager, you can be. 507 00:30:06,871 --> 00:30:09,311 proactive about it, or you can be reactive about it. 508 00:30:09,881 --> 00:30:14,711 in terms of being proactive, you can always, maintain a hiring pipeline. 509 00:30:14,941 --> 00:30:18,041 one thing that I usually do is, I'm trying to, continue to, 510 00:30:18,091 --> 00:30:20,401 invest in my professional network. 511 00:30:20,511 --> 00:30:23,051 Let's say you, you are attending conferences, right? 512 00:30:23,061 --> 00:30:27,561 Definitely, advertise about your company, share more about, what exactly you do. 513 00:30:28,011 --> 00:30:31,191 So you are, generating that awareness about that. 514 00:30:31,201 --> 00:30:34,321 And then, there might be in future people interested in the role. 515 00:30:34,411 --> 00:30:37,371 so this is more of a proactive measure where you are thinking about the 516 00:30:37,371 --> 00:30:39,791 hiring pipeline, keeping that word out. 517 00:30:40,551 --> 00:30:43,031 Another key aspect that I would call out is, thinking 518 00:30:43,031 --> 00:30:45,231 about internal mobility, right? 519 00:30:45,271 --> 00:30:49,451 You have a set of people you are managing, using those one on ones, 520 00:30:49,451 --> 00:30:52,701 which I brought up earlier to, understand their career motivations. 521 00:30:53,311 --> 00:30:57,651 And if you think that, someone is at a risk of, moving away, because, maybe 522 00:30:57,651 --> 00:31:01,901 their career aspirations are not being met, try to be proactive about it. 523 00:31:01,951 --> 00:31:06,371 If someone wants to move to a particular role, see if you can, provide that 524 00:31:06,381 --> 00:31:10,151 internal mobility and support that move, so that, you're not losing the 525 00:31:10,151 --> 00:31:14,131 person, because obviously there's a very high, backfill and hiring cost 526 00:31:14,131 --> 00:31:15,811 involved every time you lose an employee. 527 00:31:16,701 --> 00:31:19,881 So I think, that these are some of the proactive measures you can take. 528 00:31:20,461 --> 00:31:25,531 Now, on the flip side, let's say, your employee has taken the decision, then, 529 00:31:25,531 --> 00:31:29,031 you get into the mode where you're trying to take any reactive measures, right? 530 00:31:29,411 --> 00:31:31,191 So the first and foremost should be. 531 00:31:31,631 --> 00:31:35,581 trying to see, how you can save that situation if it's like a compensation 532 00:31:35,621 --> 00:31:39,251 thing, then, maybe engage with HR and, your manager just to see if there's 533 00:31:39,251 --> 00:31:43,111 anything you can, do to still keep the employee, obviously making sure 534 00:31:43,111 --> 00:31:47,221 that, looking at their, how big of an asset, then that way you can pull some 535 00:31:47,271 --> 00:31:49,841 levers and, try to, save the situation. 536 00:31:50,481 --> 00:31:54,501 or if it's more of an, again, internal motivation to move to a different role 537 00:31:54,701 --> 00:31:58,821 or, a different technology, then you can try to find a fit within the company. 538 00:31:58,871 --> 00:32:01,211 So this is again, a reactive measure. 539 00:32:02,126 --> 00:32:03,656 Now, this is not always true. 540 00:32:03,676 --> 00:32:07,026 Sometimes people have already made up their mind, and it's like, a situation 541 00:32:07,076 --> 00:32:08,986 from where there's no going back, right? 542 00:32:09,476 --> 00:32:14,016 So in that situation, it's important to, just acknowledge what is in front of you, 543 00:32:14,716 --> 00:32:19,596 and then making sure that transition, of this employee out is as seamless as 544 00:32:19,596 --> 00:32:23,956 possible, so in such situations, you can focus on making sure that there's a 545 00:32:23,956 --> 00:32:25,786 proper, off boarding checklist, right? 546 00:32:25,786 --> 00:32:30,246 Where This person does no knowledge that is lost in this transition. 547 00:32:30,296 --> 00:32:33,996 So making sure you have all the knowledge transfer sessions 548 00:32:34,096 --> 00:32:35,616 with the existing team members. 549 00:32:36,076 --> 00:32:37,956 there's good set of documentation. 550 00:32:38,076 --> 00:32:42,516 Once this person leaves, thanking this person for whatever they've done, till the 551 00:32:42,516 --> 00:32:47,136 time they were in the team, they've been an asset and you never know when, they 552 00:32:47,136 --> 00:32:49,606 might come back and join back your team. 553 00:32:49,676 --> 00:32:53,096 And I'll tell you, I've seen that multiple times, especially in my 554 00:32:53,096 --> 00:32:57,176 Amazon culture, where people have, left a particular team and, tried a 555 00:32:57,176 --> 00:33:00,106 different gig in an internal team and have come back to the previous team. 556 00:33:00,426 --> 00:33:01,826 Never think that door is shut. 557 00:33:01,926 --> 00:33:07,886 So always, that whole, transition should be seamless, because anyone leaving, 558 00:33:08,166 --> 00:33:11,606 also impacts the morale of your team, just making sure that, that morale is 559 00:33:11,606 --> 00:33:15,046 high is also something that you have to keep in mind as part of attrition. 560 00:33:17,841 --> 00:33:22,911 this is basically the ultimate test of how well you've done as a manager. 561 00:33:22,951 --> 00:33:27,561 If a person is leaving, and let's say that this is a situation when they have 562 00:33:27,561 --> 00:33:35,151 a good reason to leave and you stop supporting them, then at that stage you 563 00:33:35,151 --> 00:33:41,571 don't act anymore in their best interest and don't support them to go and get 564 00:33:41,581 --> 00:33:44,371 that better for their situation job. 565 00:33:44,901 --> 00:33:49,091 It's okay, so you've, made me feel that you cared for me and you were 566 00:33:49,091 --> 00:33:50,761 in my corner this entire time. 567 00:33:50,801 --> 00:33:53,621 And now that I'm leaving, all of a sudden that changes, right? 568 00:33:54,161 --> 00:33:54,861 But it's hard. 569 00:33:54,901 --> 00:33:59,251 I remember the first person who quit on me, the initial 570 00:33:59,461 --> 00:34:01,001 reaction was like, Oh, wow. 571 00:34:01,041 --> 00:34:03,981 I invested so much in you and I thought we were doing great. 572 00:34:04,011 --> 00:34:05,021 Why are you going? 573 00:34:05,691 --> 00:34:06,551 this is awful. 574 00:34:06,671 --> 00:34:09,411 But then when you think about it for a little bit, then you 575 00:34:09,411 --> 00:34:13,571 understand, okay, this genuinely is a better opportunity for them. 576 00:34:13,671 --> 00:34:18,326 And it allows them to do X and Y, that's when you show them the 577 00:34:18,326 --> 00:34:21,916 support and you help them because this is the right thing to do. 578 00:34:22,976 --> 00:34:29,326 So yeah, I can definitely relate to what you just described and I feel like this 579 00:34:29,326 --> 00:34:34,816 is this, weird test at the end of that, that dynamic that's waiting for you. 580 00:34:35,471 --> 00:34:38,441 as you gain more experience, you accept that and you'll be 581 00:34:38,441 --> 00:34:40,161 more, mature in your approach. 582 00:34:40,541 --> 00:34:44,601 your first experience of someone quitting on you, definitely take the learnings, 583 00:34:44,691 --> 00:34:48,646 and then when it happens again, and as I said, attrition is inevitable, right? 584 00:34:48,926 --> 00:34:51,946 you can do a better and better job and learn from those experiences. 585 00:34:52,844 --> 00:35:00,174 So I think we've covered a lot of good stuff now, and what comes to mind is 586 00:35:00,884 --> 00:35:06,254 In this new position, you've taken the plunge, you focused on all this 587 00:35:06,284 --> 00:35:12,304 other things, and you spent most of the day now resolving people's problems 588 00:35:12,354 --> 00:35:17,514 and listening to them and trying to get the project to go in the right 589 00:35:17,524 --> 00:35:20,264 direction and for everybody to grow. 590 00:35:20,264 --> 00:35:23,064 And the question then becomes: how do you. 591 00:35:23,189 --> 00:35:27,479 Make sure that you don't get left behind in terms of growing 592 00:35:27,479 --> 00:35:29,699 yourself in the entire process. 593 00:35:30,379 --> 00:35:33,009 What advice do you offer, in that respect? 594 00:35:33,564 --> 00:35:36,894 you have to invest in your team members and you have to invest in yourself. 595 00:35:37,004 --> 00:35:40,754 as an engineering manager, and even, perhaps any role, growing and 596 00:35:40,754 --> 00:35:44,434 investing in yourself is a continuous, you know, iterative process, right? 597 00:35:44,464 --> 00:35:45,824 There's never enough. 598 00:35:45,834 --> 00:35:49,364 with engineering manager, any manager, it's an important aspect because it's 599 00:35:49,364 --> 00:35:52,964 not a coding language where you can go, debug the code straight away. 600 00:35:52,964 --> 00:35:56,874 understanding people is, always a difficult task. 601 00:35:57,234 --> 00:36:00,164 what may work for one person might not work for the other person. 602 00:36:00,224 --> 00:36:03,364 I definitely feel that, it's a continuous learning and, growing process. 603 00:36:04,354 --> 00:36:10,284 You have to invest in, growing yourself, in terms of, okay, technology people, 604 00:36:10,484 --> 00:36:12,294 but you also have to, spend time. 605 00:36:12,634 --> 00:36:18,124 I feel like just to, regulate your mental temperament, just because, sometimes 606 00:36:18,204 --> 00:36:22,249 as a software engineering managers, you can be in really tough situation. 607 00:36:22,299 --> 00:36:25,029 So I think, like balancing that is really important. 608 00:36:25,829 --> 00:36:30,089 something that has worked well for me as well as, the first one being, having 609 00:36:30,099 --> 00:36:32,769 like mentors or, sponsors in your life. 610 00:36:33,269 --> 00:36:37,629 having people who you look up to, who can be your sounding board, who can, 611 00:36:37,629 --> 00:36:41,129 definitely guide you toward, when you are facing any difficult situations. 612 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,709 having them is really important. 613 00:36:44,199 --> 00:36:47,579 obviously your manager, in the organization can also be a really 614 00:36:47,579 --> 00:36:51,854 good mentor, but I strongly believe in having someone, who's outside your 615 00:36:52,004 --> 00:36:55,474 immediate leadership chain, that way you can be as transparent to them. 616 00:36:55,474 --> 00:36:57,824 And, also get that outsider perspective. 617 00:36:57,844 --> 00:37:00,654 Sometimes you're pretty bogged into, what you're working on. 618 00:37:01,254 --> 00:37:06,399 there are, definitely several platforms out there, within an organization, I've 619 00:37:06,399 --> 00:37:10,514 seen a lot of, mentoring circles that these companies have, outside, LinkedIn 620 00:37:10,514 --> 00:37:12,624 is a huge community and something that, 621 00:37:12,674 --> 00:37:17,594 I'm very active at, there are also platforms like Plato HQ, growth, mentor, 622 00:37:17,634 --> 00:37:21,254 mentor crews that I've seen, and, I've also been part of, so definitely, 623 00:37:21,254 --> 00:37:24,484 would recommend people to check out if they've not heard about them. 624 00:37:25,224 --> 00:37:26,764 mentorship is one big thing. 625 00:37:27,164 --> 00:37:31,264 second would be, as an engineering manager, as I said, you have to be close 626 00:37:31,274 --> 00:37:35,724 to the technology, engineers should feel that their manager is sound and, they 627 00:37:35,724 --> 00:37:39,384 can go to approach them whether it's a technical problem or a people problem. 628 00:37:39,484 --> 00:37:44,349 one thing that I definitely recommend engineering managers to do is 629 00:37:44,349 --> 00:37:45,829 to, be in touch with technology. 630 00:37:45,829 --> 00:37:49,469 This can be through basic, pet projects that they can do on their side. 631 00:37:49,489 --> 00:37:53,283 For example, I myself was trying to, with this whole Jenny, I like 632 00:37:53,303 --> 00:37:57,948 trying to do like a quick chatbot one of the week and just, get, get 633 00:37:57,948 --> 00:37:59,778 understanding of, what it's all about. 634 00:38:00,448 --> 00:38:02,988 also, reactively reading code reviews for the team. 635 00:38:02,988 --> 00:38:07,058 I think that also helps, you exactly know what people are working on and 636 00:38:07,058 --> 00:38:10,038 don't have to, waste your one on ones asking that, plus at the same time, 637 00:38:10,088 --> 00:38:11,808 it keeps you closer to the code. 638 00:38:12,038 --> 00:38:15,258 that's another, way to keep, continuously invest and grow 639 00:38:15,258 --> 00:38:16,888 yourself, especially technically. 640 00:38:17,158 --> 00:38:21,658 Apart from reading, technical blogs or the books, that are, there are, 641 00:38:21,708 --> 00:38:23,218 plethora of resources out there for that. 642 00:38:23,968 --> 00:38:24,418 what else? 643 00:38:24,968 --> 00:38:28,668 there are some really good books, of course, and there's "think like a software 644 00:38:28,668 --> 00:38:32,618 engineering manager", but then there are also, other good books that one can learn. 645 00:38:33,188 --> 00:38:37,068 I especially find the Harvard Business Review, articles and books 646 00:38:37,068 --> 00:38:40,238 to be very useful when I think about, engineering management. 647 00:38:40,678 --> 00:38:41,878 that's, another thing. 648 00:38:42,528 --> 00:38:44,378 and, 1 thing that. 649 00:38:44,753 --> 00:38:48,083 The, is also important just to focus on the soft skills, right? 650 00:38:48,523 --> 00:38:52,523 you have to be a good, communicator and a facilitator when it 651 00:38:52,553 --> 00:38:53,963 comes to discussions, right? 652 00:38:54,083 --> 00:38:58,103 you have to get your points across to the team and, be able to, comprehend others. 653 00:38:58,253 --> 00:39:01,773 So I think the communication and then, if you're managing a team, 654 00:39:01,793 --> 00:39:03,433 conflicts are also inevitable. 655 00:39:03,463 --> 00:39:08,123 being a good facilitator when it comes to that, is also something that's important. 656 00:39:08,653 --> 00:39:12,283 So for that, there are some good, LinkedIn learning resources 657 00:39:12,733 --> 00:39:13,823 can really help to grow. 658 00:39:14,308 --> 00:39:19,225 in my book, I cover, another concept where I've spoken to many people and 659 00:39:19,235 --> 00:39:23,655 find it a little controversial so I suggest people to also interview 660 00:39:23,735 --> 00:39:28,325 frequently, and then, it's not a very embracable idea, I would say. 661 00:39:28,785 --> 00:39:33,215 in my opinion, if you interview frequently, you know what exactly, is 662 00:39:33,265 --> 00:39:36,755 the industry standard, what's going on, what do you need to be, continuously 663 00:39:36,795 --> 00:39:40,605 prepped up for if you were to, change the role at any point in time. 664 00:39:41,355 --> 00:39:41,655 yeah. 665 00:39:41,765 --> 00:39:45,525 So that's another interesting concept, for people to think about. 666 00:39:46,525 --> 00:39:47,115 Awesome. 667 00:39:47,185 --> 00:39:51,475 So yes, in case you missed it, the book is called "think like 668 00:39:51,475 --> 00:39:52,885 a software engineering manager". 669 00:39:53,325 --> 00:39:54,425 It's available at manning. 670 00:39:54,665 --> 00:39:55,115 com. 671 00:39:55,735 --> 00:39:59,635 and, we're going to put a link in at the show descriptions. 672 00:40:00,635 --> 00:40:07,005 Words for anybody who's now listened to this and is wondering, maybe is in a 673 00:40:07,005 --> 00:40:11,795 situation when they have to decide which way to go, whether to go into engineering 674 00:40:11,795 --> 00:40:18,335 management or try to stay, I see any last advice to leave our listeners with. 675 00:40:19,545 --> 00:40:19,965 Yep. 676 00:40:20,075 --> 00:40:21,035 be patient. 677 00:40:21,095 --> 00:40:24,465 a lot of people that I know are, trying to make that move. 678 00:40:24,985 --> 00:40:28,015 one of the question I usually get when I'm, mentoring them is 679 00:40:28,035 --> 00:40:29,385 okay, when is the right time? 680 00:40:29,475 --> 00:40:30,525 How soon can I move? 681 00:40:30,915 --> 00:40:34,295 it's a typical example of, grass looks greener on the other side, right? 682 00:40:34,345 --> 00:40:39,595 be patient, take your time to, research about the role, really gauge 683 00:40:39,595 --> 00:40:43,035 your interest in terms of, what's your motivation to move to the role, 684 00:40:43,595 --> 00:40:47,565 assess your skillset, talk to people who have, done the, walk the talk. 685 00:40:48,155 --> 00:40:52,285 also try to, find people who have thrived in the role as a, senior stuff, 686 00:40:52,345 --> 00:40:56,465 staff engineer, principal engineer, you want to know both aspects of the 687 00:40:56,485 --> 00:40:58,615 role, before you take the decision. 688 00:40:58,715 --> 00:41:01,935 This is not the defacto or, promotion route. 689 00:41:02,465 --> 00:41:06,455 make sure that you're very clear with your motivation of moving and whether, 690 00:41:06,455 --> 00:41:09,205 that's the right skill set because you don't want to survive in the role. 691 00:41:09,205 --> 00:41:10,365 You want to thrive in the role. 692 00:41:10,415 --> 00:41:12,385 be very, careful about your move. 693 00:41:13,185 --> 00:41:15,375 take your time, assess the situation. 694 00:41:15,855 --> 00:41:18,175 And then when the time is right, obviously, take the plunge. 695 00:41:18,535 --> 00:41:19,055 Awesome. 696 00:41:19,795 --> 00:41:20,665 Thank you very much. 697 00:41:20,715 --> 00:41:21,895 That is good advice. 698 00:41:22,195 --> 00:41:25,085 And hopefully it will help some of our listeners. 699 00:41:25,645 --> 00:41:26,155 Thank you. 700 00:41:26,385 --> 00:41:27,565 And I'll see you next time. 701 00:41:28,205 --> 00:41:29,025 Thank you for having me.