Our families and communities have given up on they've cast away. They don't care about anymore. Um, they violated their norms. They violated their relationships, but there's got to be someone that cares about them to help them get back on track. Right? And I love being that guy. I love having the staff that we have that we have in this facility to help people turn their lives around to make them know that they are that they matter. And that we want the best for them.

We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor. How we didn't even talk about this topic. Because we were afraid. A Black

Executive Perspective.

We are live at the new BEP studio. Bringing you another thought provoking episode of a Black Executive Perspective podcast. A safe space where we discuss all matters related to race. Especially race in corporate America. A I'm your host, Tony Tidbitt.

And I'm your co host, Chris P. Reid. Before we get too far into this, we want to definitely remember to have you check out our partners at CodeM Magazine. CodeM Magazine, whose mission is saving the Black family by first saving the Black man. That is CodeM Magazine 2Ms. com. CodeM Magazine. Make sure you check them out.

Yeah, make sure you check them out. And you're gonna check out our guest today. Cause we're joined by a visionary In the world of corrections, Sheriff Peter J. Koutoujian of Middlesex County, Massachusetts. The sheriff has dedicated his career to not just managing, but fundamentally transforming how we think about corrections and rehabilitation. We're going to dive into his innovative programs he has introduced that aim to enhance outcomes for incarcerated individuals. Their families and communities. And he's going to discuss how these initiatives are shaping a fairer justice system.

Let me give you a little bit of background though, before we get too far into this Tony and audience, uh, sheriff, Peter Koutoujian, the 30th sheriff of Middlesex County, Massachusetts, where he, where he brings a wealth of experience as a former. Assistant District Attorney and a member of the Massachusetts State Legislature. Sheriff Koutoujian has created a way to use his experience and position within the criminal justice system to transform the broader landscape with the use of tailored treatment programs that tackle the root causes of the criminal justice involvement. As the head of a comprehensive law enforcement agency, Sheriff Koutoujian manages more than 700 employees and an annual budget of 77 million. His efforts bridge public health, safety, and service. Sheriff Peter Koutoujian. Welcome to a black executive perspective podcast, sir.

Thank you so much, Chris. Great to be with you. And Tony really been excited and looking forward to this day. Yeah, we have as well,

buddy. So listen, you're doing some real cool stuff. So we're excited to hear from you,

but go ahead, Chris. It's a mouthful. That's a mouthful. But, uh, so you know what, let's just start it off real nice and easy. Uh, sheriff, could you, can you tell us more about where you currently reside and, and some of your family dynamics and things of that nature, things that are near and dear to your heart?

Sure. Um, you know, I'm a, I'm a kid from Waltham, Massachusetts, and. No matter where I go in the country, I always say I'm just a kid from Waltham, right? I always feel like if you forget where you came from, um, you get lost, right? So I'm a kid from Waltham, modest blue collar community, about 60, 000 right here in Middlesex County. My, uh, my mother was a teacher, my father was a city clerk for over 30 years, uh, running the municipal elections and marriage licenses and, um, uh, death certificates, all the things that a city clerk does. Uh, and a true public servant, someone, someone that inspired me, um, you know, I, I was lucky enough to get up to go to, um, uh, an undergraduate school at a state school here in Massachusetts, Bridgewater State University. My son goes there now, my mother, who's 86 years old, actually takes classes at the senior college virtually now, which I love. We got. She loves to tell people that she goes to college with her grandson. I don't think he finds it as amusing as she does, but it's really cute. Um, and then I was able to go to New England law to get my law degree. And then I went to the Kennedy school for a master's in public administration. Middle six County is 1. 8 million people, uh, 54 independent in individual cities and towns. Um, and a little bit more about me as. My father was Armenian American. Um, uh, his, his parents, my grandparents actually fled the Armenian genocide, um, uh, fleeing, um, you know, historic Armenia with really nothing but the clothing on their back and ending up in this great country and raising a family here and becoming the truest of patriots, my mother. Um, was Irish American, uh, second generation Irish American. And so I really had this great blend of two cultures of being, uh, both Irish and Armenian. Uh, and then, uh, and then being American at the same time. And having this blend was really special in my life. My mother embraced the Arminianism of my father in a way that, um, uh, many might not have expected, but she pushed me more into my Arminianism than my father really did. Um, and it is, uh, it's been a rich and beautiful, um, you know, life that I've had. And, uh, you know, I'm really lucky to, uh, to be here right now, quite honestly, in a job that I love so much.

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So listen, my friend, thank you for that. That is awesome. Uh, you know, family is very important. It shapes us who we are positively or negatively. So it's great to hear about. You know, you came from a strong family. They had a lot to do in terms of your makeup in terms of where you, what you're doing today. And we definitely want to dive in more to, to learn about them. Cause I, obviously, you know, your, your job is to oversee a department that is really about protecting all citizens, um, regardless of where they come from. So we really want to dive into that. But the question I have for you is, you know, why did you want to come on and talk about this topic on a black executive perspective podcast?

Well, honestly, I'm. I'm a lifelong public servant. I've had a blessed professional life in serving others, right? I mean, honestly, that's what public servants do. And I love the profession, and I love doing good work for the profession, and I love bringing honor to the profession. To the profession of public service, right? You know, it's just something I feel really strong about it. And I love the fact that we get to watch out for those that might be a little bit more vulnerable that might need a little help. I mean, that's what our government and that's what our public service is here for is to support people to support our communities, individuals, families and communities. That's what I get to do. And not many people understand what role a sheriff can have in their lives. Or, you know, if you have to be sent to a place of incarceration, what it can be like, you know, if you have to be there, what it can be like. And to allow people the opportunities to turn their lives around while they're serving the sentence dictated by the court, right? Um, and quite honestly, one of the other things I say, you know, and I'll probably close with this again is, you know, whenever I go in public, Tony or Chris and I speak to any group, it can be people of color, it could be white folks, it could be wealthy, poor, it doesn't matter, right? Anywhere in my And I always ask three questions, how many people know someone that has struggled with substance use disorder, raise your hand. It's always two thirds, three quarters, 100 percent of the room raises their hand. How many people know someone that struggled with mental illness? Always the same thing up to 100 percent always three quarters to 100%. And then I ask a final question, which seems like you'd get much lower hand raising. Uh, how many people know someone's been incarcerated? And it's always the same number. We all know someone, right? And I got to get to the point that it's not those people, man. It's us. It's our people. It's our family and our friends and our neighbors and our cousins and our neighbors kids that we're speaking about. And all of these people deserve the opportunity to be treated with dignity, respect, be given the tools to help turn their lives around. and be treated like they're a person, right? Um, so that when they come back out, um, they're a much, they're a more productive member of society. And that's, I never thought about becoming sheriff. It's not something I sought, right? Um, as a matter of fact, when the first, I was, I was initially appointed by Governor Deval Patrick here, a great black executive, by the way, um, um, great man, great governor. And, uh, he actually allowed me this opportunity. But when people first reached out and said, you should ask the governor for this initial appointment. I've now run three times. And I was thinking, man, like, why would I want to be sheriff? Like, I don't really get that. Like, that doesn't like, why would I want to do that? And then I started looking into the job because I never say never to anything, right? I started looking into it. And I, I said, man, what a great opportunity to, to, to serve the least of us, right? This is the way I also think about it, right? It's, it's, it's, it's, uh, serving the least of us, the people that, um, our families and communities have given up on, they've cast away, they don't care about anymore. Right. Um, they violated their norms. They violated their relationships, but there's got to be someone that cares about them to help them get back on track. Right. And I love being that guy. I love having the staff that we have, that we have in this facility to help people turn their lives around to make them know that they are, that they matter and that we want the best for them. People actually say to me, Aren't you afraid when you go out in public because I go inside the facility pretty often Aren't you afraid when you go into public that someone's going to recognize you? And my response is always like I hope they do Because you know, they they know that they they know that i'm there trying to help them And I love being able to see them in the community so they can understand how they're doing and and how what we've done is Helped or maybe didn't help them enough and How maybe we can do a better service while we're at the, while people are at our facility.

Right, right, buddy. I mean, look, we, we, we at the beginning of the show and you, and you, you, my man, I mean, did he, how many cups of coffee did you have? I'm talking about somebody that's very passionate. I love it, man. So, so listen, I'm glad you're on because to your point, and then you said a few things there, you said a lot of stuff. That not only resonated with me, I could see Chris's response. It also resonated with our audience. We all know somebody that's been incarcerated. Right. We, we do sometimes treat them as they, uh, um, have leopard disease. All right. They're leper, right? And that's an old, you know, um, um, um, disease. People used to have them put back in the olden days and put him in the cave and nobody would go near him. Right. And we do treat him that way. And then when they do come out, they don't have a chance, right? They're set up for failure. Right. And then I think the other thing that you said, which is key, uh, Um, also key is that most people don't know what a sheriff does. You know, I, you know, yo Sammy, yo Sammy. I mean, most, I'm Marshall Dillon, you know, most people and I'm dating myself, right? But most people don't. So we're glad you're here. We see you chomping at the bit. All right. The talk about it. So you ready to talk about it? Sheriff?

I'm

ready to go. Let's go. All right, buddy. Let's talk about it.

All right, so you know what, let's, uh, go back because you intrigued me as a historian. You intrigued me with the history, especially your mom and I respect and appreciate that. And trust me, your son will, will change his tune as he gets a little years under him and realize how special this is. But go back to even more earlier influences or memories of the community because you said something about just being a guy from Walham. I think that's how you pronounce it, right? Waltham. Waltham. So, Waltham. Okay, there we go. See, see, I'm learning something today. So, I'm expanding my horizons. But, how did Waltham Contribute to shaping the man that we have before us today.

So, you know, it was, it was a blue collar community. It was a little bit of a tough community. Um, quite honestly, uh, I grew up in the tougher part of the neighborhood and, uh, um, my junior high school years were not easy ones. I'll just say that, right. I was the only kid with braces in my neighborhood in my junior high school. I was the only kid wearing that horrible headgear. You know, the old headgear around the face because my mom made me wear it to school. It was horrifying and basically that was just asking for a beating right there, right? So those years were very difficult for me. Um, and I think that for any executive, right? You always think about the dark times, the difficult times that that, that put you through the ringer that gave you that metal that gave you that grit that you went through those dark times, you became stronger for that. And I, and I think I did with that, but what was also great about wallfam was it was a very ethnic community, but it also took good care of people with disabilities. So, um, you know, so since I was a kid and even today, I still, uh, volunteer with, um, for organizations that support people with intellectual and cognitive disabilities, right. I still volunteer at, you know, at shelters serving on Thanksgiving and in other evenings of the year. These are service lessons that I just learned in my hometown. The kind of nice thing, and I say this because, you know, I would grow up with people with disabilities, intellectual and cognitive disabilities, and they weren't, you know, they weren't those people. They were my friends, right? I kind of grew up with them, uh, and have soft sought my heart for them. And we, and I would still see them at events going, you know, even today. Uh, and that was a special relationship that I realized I was really lucky to have growing up in my community.

Your mom is coming out to be the toughest person in Waltham. Yeah. She's pretty strong. Yeah. You

ain't lying. I don't even want to deal with it.

She was on the right track, but you had mentioned their professions earlier. How did their professions and her toughness and the community all included it? to create your perspecti public service.

Yeah. So my mom's. Yeah, absolutely servants, right? That's w I grew up, I didn't know that. You know, um, and m a teacher. Then she, then a period of time that you as my sister and I grew u dad stayed in municipal g town of Waltham became th As one of the finest clerks and civil servants in the in the state. So this is how I grew up. And I think they just gave me an appreciation of the value of that. Now, what I really appreciate is the fact that I kind of entered public service and now am I glad I did right? You know, like, like, like, had I gone someplace else, maybe I would have come back, but. For many people, what I try to instill upon them is the value of public service, the joy of public service. You don't, you know, I don't get paid as well as some of my counterparts or my contemporaries or people with the same number of degrees or whatever it might be, right? I don't get, I don't get paid as much as them, but man, if I love my jobs. You know, like, like, once I figured it out and part of the reason I actually started a unit for young adult offenders, right? Um, because I was that young adult that I wasn't an offender, but I had didn't have my act together. You know, that age to about 26 year old that. the fuller maturation. I was that guy. I didn't have my act together. And I, and I, and I really struggled, um, in those years because I didn't know the direction I wanted to go to. And then one gentleman, Judge Jim Lawton allowed me to attend my law school, right? And I never looked back. I never made that mistake of messing around. I worked, you know, my, my, my, my, My mantra my whole life has been the harder I work, the luckier I get right. And I worked really hard in my life in public services, a series of blessings because I worked hard and then things opened up and I started as a, you know, private practitioner, but a public defender, um, uh, for court appointed work for, uh, indigent, um, people charged with crimes. And then I, then because I saw the value. Of justice in their lives. I, I applied and was lucky enough to be chosen to become a prosecutor in the Middlesex District attorney's office. Not because I wanted to put people in jail, but because I wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing by people. You know? Um, you, you can see you can do justice in that role and I really found that a beautiful thing that I was able to do. protecting our communities at the same time. And then, um, you know, however it was, I worked hard and then I got lucky. There was an opportunity to run for state representative and I, I ran, I defeated incumbent. Um, I served in the legislature for 14 years and I was the chairman of the committee on health care. for about six or eight of those years, which informed me about how to be a sheriff more than being, you know, going through a sheriff's office in some ways from an outside perspective, you know, taught me about, you know, substance use disorder and mental illness and medication assisted treatment and trauma and self harm, suicide issues, all the things that we deal with with our population. And then Miraculously, this job opened up. So I have, I've not been as paid well as some of my contemporaries, but the fact is, I've loved my jobs, every single one of them. And I can't imagine being more fulfilled in my professional life or my personal life because of that as well.

That is, I mean, look, that is awesome, my friend. And, you know, starting with a foundation of your, your father being public service, you had something to look up to. You talked a little bit how you navigated, you know, from law school, public defender, prosecutor, um, now sheriff, right? And then obviously as you go through the system and being on all three sides, public defender, prosecutor, and then the sheriff, you've seen a lot of the, you've seen how people of color, you know, Get caught up in the system. Okay. And, and look, at the end of the day, we all got to hope we have to hold everyone accountable for right and wrong. So that's not even the issue, but you've seen all three sides of that. Right. So talk, tell us a little bit in terms of what some of the things that you learned because you've been on, you were the former, uh, the former house chair of commissions to end Racial and ethnic, ethnic health disparities, right? So talk a little bit about some of the things through that journey within the system that you've learned about, you know, what happens to people of color when they're in and how tough it is for not just to get out, but to be successful as they come up.

Yeah, so thank you for that question, Tony. Um, some of the proudest work I did is something that not many people, um, noticed at the time necessarily or, or even remember, quite honestly. Listen, I had a good, good friend in my legislative aide, uh, Dan Delaney, who was a man of color. You know, I still consider him one of my closest friends, right? And it was through Dan that I got to see the world through the eyes of a black man, honestly, right? And to understand this, you know, uh, driving while black was a real thing and all these things that you hear about. I was educated. I was lucky enough to be educated by a man. with some experience, some knowledge and a lot of intellect. Great man. And so as we began to explore, um, the world of healthcare when I was chairman of that committee, we came to realize something that was really obvious that, uh, people of color, um, uh, they died earlier, they suffered more disease, premature mortality from births or like, you know, five, 10, 15 times higher than the white community. You know cancers heart conditions all these things that were that communities of color and poor communities struggled with And no one seemed to care. You know, this is what that doesn't really bother me, right? If it was happening to the Irish community of the Armenian community of the Italian community of the Jewish community, there'd be there'd be a human cry, right? This is the injustice of this is wrong, and we need to fix this. But because it was happening in the black and brown community, no one, you know, not that they didn't care, but there was no one doing something. What was even worse was there was no one calling for a real study of it. Right. You had academic studies here and there. So I remember speaking with Dan and we had the idea that, uh, I should ask the speaker of the house, uh, to consider, uh, establishing a commission to study racial and, uh, uh, the, the, um, racial and uh, ethnic minority health disparities. Right. Um, and it was a conservative speaker, right? Um, democrat, conservative speaker, and he wasn't interested. Now. I don't think it was because it was a racist. You I think it was because he's thinking it's going to cost a lot of money. We're going to open up a Pandora's box. It's going to cost a lot of money. So. You know, the motivations may not have been perfect, but they weren't the wrong motivations, right?

Right.

Can you

stop right there for a second? Because I want you to finish, but you make a good point here. And I want to dive into that, right? Because at the end of the day, and, and, and don't lose your train of thought because I want to go there, right? However, we, we got to also be, we got to be honest because a lot of times, even though people running for public service, or they're in public service, right? And. They also, they get their job by getting elected. All right. So if there are certain, uh, um, issues that they don't feel is going to help them, or they don't feel they have a whole wave of support behind them to jump on it, that's going to help them. Get that wave of that reelection. It doesn't mean that they, I don't believe in it. It's like, I'm trying to keep my job too. So talk a little and then finish your story.

Yeah. So, I mean, listen, he cared about people, right? That wasn't the issue, right? Right. Um, and so I went at him the first time and he wasn't particularly interested. I went at him a second time. He wasn't particularly interested. I, I went at him a third time and he said, well, I'm concerned about this. I said, Amen. Hallelujah. I got an opening here. Right. And so it changed some of the language. Um, and, and we worked it. Now understand this was not a powerful community that was demanding this, this was just Peter Ian is thing. Right. This is one man. Yeah.

One man one, exactly.

That. Believed in it, understood it, and knew it was important. Exactly. Right. Exactly. That's all it was, was one person that cared enough, um, you know, to, to fight for a community that. being, I don't know, um, considered valued or paid attention to, I guess. And we're suffering for that, right? So I went out, I mean, and by the way, this is a lesson for anyone that's advocating, advocate, go at it. And if you said no, that doesn't, that's not the end of it, man. You got to go back again and you go back again. If you believe in it, go back. Now you don't have to cause trouble. You don't have to cause terror. You don't have to be a jerk, right? But go and advocate again. Don't take no for an answer. If it's the right thing to do, you should go back again. And if they say no after 10 times, maybe you got, you know, maybe there's only so much you can do. But the fact is, don't stop. And I went back three or four times. And the speaker said, okay, let's do it. And we created this study that we had. I'm telling you, man, we had hearings across the state. We probably about 50 people on the commission. We heard from experts around the state and around the country. We issued a report in 2007, which was remarkable. And it's establishment of the data of what's happening in communities of color and ethnic communities and the barriers. And the insurance issues and so many and their living conditions and where they live. Do they live, you know, do they live in parts of town that are closer to the highways? And you've got particular matter that are affecting their, you know, all these things, you know, the, the, the issue of healthy eating. I mean, we went into all that stuff. That was amazing. We did it. You know, the sad thing though, Tony and Chris is no one really cared. The study was published. I was really proud and no one did much about it because quite honestly, a lot needed to be done about it. Now, the saddest part of this is that what, you know, 25 years later or what almost, you know, um, now, um, there's a new commission to study racial and ethnic minority health disparities. My gosh. Just look, my report, my report, it's as valuable and important today as it was back then. You don't need to go restudy it, just do something about it. And that's what I feel frustrated about is that people aren't stepping up and doing something about it in a way that would matter to communities.

Right. Right. You know, my friend, so, and again, that's, that, that's pretty much in every industry. I hate to say it right. That, you know, you get a champion that's really pushing something that they believe in. Um, it's, they see certain inequities, things that could be fixed. Um, we finally convinced the powers to be, to jump into it and let's do it. And then they finally say, okay, you know what, let's do it. And then when you get there and you get all the information, It ends up sitting and nobody never does anything in 20 years later. You still got the same problem, right? Same thing. Same thing. So, so when, so based on that, my friend, um, knowing that you cared about your community. Right. And knowing that this was an issue that you, you champion and push and yes, you got them to do it, but not, not a lot of things came out of it, but you didn't stop. So talk a little bit more about the things that you went on that you could control that you could do to make a difference.

Yep. So, I mean, listen, we did things that impact the community. We do things that impact. population. We do things that impact the law enforcement profession. So, you know, like one of the things that I really love about this job is you get to be innovative. You get to try new things, you get to collect data. And by the way, if the data shows the program wasn't efficacious, it didn't work. Then you can get rid of the program and or revamp it and find a new program, which we've done many times on this. So we started with, um, probably our very first specialty unit because it was a culture in my facility. Um, That was, um, uh, probably not as open about new progressive or specialty units, right? It was sort of a, it was just a traditional corrections mentality. And so we started with a veterans unit. Um, I, I felt like our officers would buy into this because it was about veterans. It was very supportive of veterans. Uh, the only, the only kind of daring part I'd say where it pushed the envelope a little bit was that I insisted that we accept veterans that have been discharged, uh, uh, dishonorably or other than honorably, because quite honestly, if you raise your hand in defense of our country, I don't care why you're in there or how you were discharged. I'm going to, I'm going to serve you, right? And I just think that was really important that we honor those that served our country and raise their hand to protect us with their lives. And then it's, then it moved on to, uh, uh, medic medication assisted treatment for the treatment of opioids. We've got a terrible problem in Massachusetts and greater, um, a New England area. Uh, and so we started a medication assisted treatment program about 11 or 12 years ago. That was really cutting edge at the time. I brought this from my state house experience. Uh, we became one of the 1st in the country to use medication assisted treatment in a carceral facility. And that has worked out to be, it's become a nation leading model. Actually, we're still used as a model as to how to, um, to create in these, these systems. And then 1 of the things that I was really proud of was from I mentioned from my own experience as a young adult. I created a young adult offender program, the first of its kind in a jail. So treating those from 18 through 26 years old, um, uh, in a different way, a whole remaking of this, uh, of the way that we deal with corrections with this age group, you know, these, these young men are, you know, all the science has shown us that they're later in maturation than we believe, right? We think that they're all adults by the time they're 18 or 21. Right. That ain't true. Right. Um, we, that they, that they, uh, engage in riskier behaviors, especially the young men. It's just kind of a natural thing to do. Um, that they, um, they don't understand the consequences of their actions. Something that I didn't understand, even though I wasn't justice involved. So that you're doing things you don't realize how it's going to mess up the rest of your life. Uh, and the fact that they have higher rates of recidivism and, uh, and problematic behavior. They also have higher rates of, for those that are incarcerated, much higher rates of trauma in their households. Right? So this is something that makes them different. So we started this unit using cognitive behavioral therapies, a whole different way to look at it, um, and address them. It's a unit where, uh, Um, you know, a lot of the gang affiliated folks come in, they leave their colors at the door, they make it work. It's a unit, uh, that the officers are much more available. Um, they're around speaking to individuals one on one place. You wouldn't really see that in the rest of the facility. Uh, and the recidivism rate is remarkably low for this age group. I think it's around 15%. So 85 percent don't recidivate and that and that just has led to more and more, you know, Whether it's our women's pre release or family support services program, which was really, um, I'm really proud of because one of the things is we think about we're so focused on the person that's incarcerated, right? Getting them better. We think about them a lot. We forget about the victim of the crime, right? We just don't even think about them very much. But the one group that we never think about at all is the family members of the incarcerated individual. So we actually support the family members. For more information, visit www. FEMA. gov through educational opportunities and, uh, and, and, and, um, instructional opportunities, um, and even Thanksgiving meals and like, um, uh, book bag drives and all this sort of stuff to show that we care about the family and support that family because, you know, that family is the most important part when these, you know, men and women come back out, um, and that family is going to be the one that supports them. Um, and, and that's, that's crucially important that we save that family. Also, it shows. One of the things that people should understand is, uh, I call it trickle down corrections. Those, um, those that have, uh, those children of incarcerated individuals are much more likely to have failures in education, truancy in education, sociopathic behavior, and higher rates of incarceration. So if we can actually help support the family and stem that, that next trend in that generation, then we've done a lot for a lot of generations thereafter.

You said something earlier that's, that's resonated with me and you kind of reinforced it throughout the different things that you're talking about, programs and such. Um, how difficult is it? And this is me as a, as a citizen, and I'm sure plenty of our audience, how difficult is it for you as a servant to not accept the uncomplicated? No. So let me, let me frame that up for you. You went in and you said, I presented it. And he said, no, and then you said something that threw me off, which is I represented it. And he said, no, and I represent it. So because the no was just a simple no. And it wasn't no, because of this reason, that reason, this reason, that you were like, okay, I'm not just going to give up and go away quietly. First of all, I salute you for that destitutiveness, but also how difficult is that? And how common is that? So, oh, you got

some, you got some noise there. Tony, you're going to play.

I was giving you a round of applause, but

we'll

go ahead

and do your thing,

buddy.

Listen, I just, if people don't advocate for others, then who's going to advocate for them? Right? I've just seen too many people that are. That are supposed to be leading on an issue and then they're told no and they just quietly go away And there's nothing more offensive to me than that If it's a good idea, then you've got to go fight for it and you don't have to be a jerk about it You don't have to be antagonistic or get into fights with people but at least go back a few more times and and I was able to show him that You know, it was important It would serve our communities, including his community. Um, and that, and there was not going to be a money, you know, a money component to this. And if he was worried like, oh, we're going to have to find this and going to cost this much more in our system, not to worry about that. And I knew he was a good man, right? I just needed to kind of get through him a couple of times and, and, I've seen many, um, um, elected people that will go like in front of the cameras to go advocate for something. But once the cameras light shut off, they just kind of go home. They don't, they don't, you know, they, they drop the issue. There's nothing more offensive to me in policy leadership than, you know, uh, lifting something up when the camera's around and they're just dropping it when they disappear. Many of my things that I got done took me, you know, 10, 11, 12 years to do in the legislature, which is a long, brutal period of time to stay on something. But I'm really proud that I stayed on them because I was getting frustrated. Like, it makes common sense. Let's just do it. Why, why is this not getting done? So I, I just think it's a, people have to be strong and passionate and, and caring. Don't be afraid. Listen, We shouldn't be afraid of being told no, right? Right. Opportunity to re engage.

Right, right. You know, my friend, you, let's, let's, because you've done a lot of great things. in Middlesex County in Massachusetts. Um, and maybe a lot of people are not aware of. So let's talk, let's dive into some of the programs and stuff that you came up with that helped change the lives of not only the, the incarcerated, but their families. Um, even the people that, you know, actually are in the system, um, that, you know, actually hold them accountable, put them behind bars. You've done a lot of stuff. So you've come up with. the family support service unit, right? Talk a little bit about that. Um, and then I want to dive into the, the, the Frederick Douglass project that you guys put together. I think it's fascinating. I think it's awesome, but it speaks to the whole of everything that you're bringing together.

Yeah. So, um, as I said, part of the reason I like, I was really pleased to be invited on your podcast is because I think it's important that people know what goes on behind the bars, so to speak, right? On the other side of the wall, on the other side of the wall, people don't really know. They don't understand. Um, and so the family support services, again, what we did was created a, an entity where we were able to connect with the loved ones, usually their wives, girlfriends, partners, whomever, and their children, right? Because mostly we've got men up here. Um, and, and, and these are the people that love these guys, right? So all the people that they were running, ripping and running with on the outside, you know, they're not visiting him up in my jail. They're not throwing any money in their canteen. They're not throwing any money in their phone fund. Right. You know, they'll be welcoming them like open arms when they get back on the outside, cause they want to rip and run with them again. Right. Yeah. I mean, Hey, um, you know, um, my boy, right. But, but so all the people that are actually visiting are generally, you know, not all of these, but you know, they're generally grandmothers, mothers, sisters. Girlfriends, you know, um, wives, it's all the women that care about these people. Um, and they're the ones that are struggling, you know, emotionally, socioeconomically, right. And all these ways that. No one remembers that they're stuck on the outside raising a family while their partner is on the inside You know, I just realized like, you know, you know how I realized this actually as i'm thinking about this I would have people call me up say hey sheriff or they know me, right? So they were someone of a I don't want to say that i'm on a higher status But some of the status that would know a high level elected official or an elected official, right? And they so they'd call me because they knew You that their kid was in trouble in my jail, or they had someone that they knew whose kid was in my jail. Um, so it was only people that knew me or knew someone that knew me. So meaning, you know, I get these calls all year long. Now, I love these calls because I get to engage with the family, tell them what's going on. You know, it's okay. Things are good. They're being treated well. Find out if they had any needs, like, You know, they needed glasses or hearing aids or they were struggling with mental health issues that we should know about. That was always really good to know. But I realized that there were thousands of other people that didn't know me or knew someone that knew me to be able to get a call from me. So I said, we should. That's not right. That's not equitable. So. That's when we created this, this position. And it's, we've had thousands of calls with families, dozens of training opportunities with families. We've done family reconciliation programs with a community college in the area to help kind of to fix the frayed relationships in many ways, right? We can find out if the, if the, if the loved one is like. Having trouble emotionally because the family member will tell us. So, you know, one of the things you worry about in a carceral facility is suicide or self harm, right? Some of you always worry about. Now, we've got someone to say, I'm speaking with my husband. I'm speaking with my boyfriend, whatever it is. He seems to be in a bad place or, you know, his mom died or his dad died or someone like that. You know, please just make sure you watch. So we get to care for them better that way, too. It's a remarkable opportunity. Now we're also having family contact visits with minor children in a room that we created to be like, very children friendly. We had an artist, you know, paint, you know, characters on the walls. It's really a beautiful thing when you see a family in there. And the whole thing about that unit, by the way, is not that you get to visit your, your partner and the kids are running around watching TV or playing with crayons. The fact is, is if we see that we go and we tap on the shoulder, hey, No, no, the idea is to engage with the Children. It's not for the contact visit with your partner and the kids are there. This is about the Children. We've also had many the Department of Children's Services visits court visits overseen in here too. So that's really one of the most rewarding, like really one of the most rewarding things that I found that we do up here.

Let me let me. Educate you on the nature of criminal justice because you obviously missed something in your law degrees and your times on the job when people commit crimes, they are dehumanized and the people that are affected by the mistake that that person may deserve to suffer as much as that person does. And for whatever reason, you've decided. That you understand the shrapnel that occurs when somebody makes a mistake and you shouldn't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, and have created programs that allow for these people to re humanize and understand and actually rehabilitate due to the fact that everybody hasn't given up on them and they don't have to live this out. In a perpetual punishment, but they'll find the best, most motivated, um, mature way of being encouraged to come out on the other side of this because they realize people still give a damn about me. People are still going to show up. And these are the people that I'm going one day at a time for to be a good, a good civil, uh, inmate. You're going, you're creating behavioral dynamics, you're creating a sense of pride and, and, and, and you're not institutionalizing these folks. Um, why hasn't somebody stopped you, sir?

Cause

that's not what this thing was

designed

to

do. You said, Chris is so true though. Right. You know, if you treat people like human beings, they'll behave like human beings. And, um, and this is the other thing that's really interesting about corrections is We've prepared the incarcerated individual. For re entry into the community and family. We give them anger management, family dynamics, educational opportunities, but we never prepare the family For the entrance of the incarcerated individual who by the way has been locked up for a period of time Is probably frustrated and anxious and trying to get back out in the world and scared and not prepared as fully as anyone wants for re entry And so we we prepare that person But we don't prepare the family to say, hey, this is what they're going to be like. This is how it's going to be. This is how to help them, uh, almost creating a support service volunteer on the outside. And by the way, the other thing I think is really good about this program is that it reminds the people that are incarcerated, like, look at you, man, you're in jail because you, you did crimes. But the damn sheriff's office is helping you with your family right now, right? So I just think that kind of makes them mindful of what they've done how it's impacted their loved ones And who we are as an organization that wants to support them In a deeper way than just giving them programs on the inside,

right? And then and that's from the family dynamic, but then you also Help the inmates Prepare for reentry and and that's your Frederick Frederick project, right? And which I was enamored by. I read the article. I'm going to read an excerpt out of the Boston Globe about this, but I thought that, you know, this, this 316, You know, um, uh, angle that you're taking from the inmate, the family, and then also the community as well, getting them prepared for the inmate to come back. Right. But I love what you, what you stated here. Right. And I'm going to, this is a quote out of the, uh, uh, Boston Globe. This goes back to December of 2023. And this is what you said. Frederick Douglas was the most photographic man of his era. He had his photo taken over 160 times. He was the Because he felt it was important for people to see a free black man and to see his success. All right, and that's some of the things that you told this group behind the inspiration of this project. And then you said, these people are not monsters. They're not mugshots you saw on the news. They're human beings who make mistakes and are paying a steep price. But who are almost certainly coming home and we want them to succeed. Okay. So, buddy, I mean, to Chris's point, I don't know. No, and that that ain't in criminal justice. 1 on 1 from a prosecuting standpoint is lock the key up and go away. And then if they're breathing, when it's time for them to come out, then we'll do something. So speak to this program that you're doing how you're having the inmates. Get together, they're communicating with people from the outside, talk, tell our audience about it and the effect that it's having with the inmate, the family, and the community.

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So thank you very much for bringing that program up. I'm really proud of it. And by the way, the thing about Frederick Douglass, when he was photographed so many times, People should not misunderstand the fact this was not ego that made him do this, right? As I said, he did it because he wanted people to see an image of a free black man, right? And it wasn't easy to do. Today, you go in front of a camera, you take a picture. Back then, there's a reason people didn't smile in those photos because those exposures sometimes took 15 and 20 minutes. So you had to sit still for 15 to 20 minutes. Tony and Chris, you guys got beautiful smiles, but I don't think you can hold that thing for 15 straight minutes, man, right? So exactly so that's why like he had this stern face, but it's kind of interesting So it was not it was a labor of love that he did these photos He wanted people to see who he was and that's why we want us people on the inside to see Who these people are now, something that I've always said since I became sheriff is that a jail is not just a fortress on a hill. It's part of a community. And if you don't, if you don't treat it as part of the community and have the community's involvement and understanding of its mission, then it will fail. Right? So this is a great way to do this. Now, I take tours, you know, we bring in legislators and people as much as I can, because I want them to see a well run, um, Correctional facility, you know, you see so many on on on the TV. Those are not well run facilities. Right? I mean, you know, the camera crews would come up to my place and they'd like, just go home and say, if there's nothing to see here, there's nothing interesting going on here, which is the beauty of good corrections. Right? Um, and so, so, so if so, this is a way that. It started with Professor Mark Howard from Georgetown, and he had this idea about bringing people from the public inside a carceral facility in a systematic way. And so what we do is we have about 15 or so people from the outside community is the way we call it. And they'll come to our facility, we'll give them a quick tour of our facility, some of the programs that we've spoken about. Then we'll bring them down into a larger area where they'll connect with 10, maybe 15 people. Inside participants, we sit around in a large circle, usually facilitated by Mark Howard or someone else. We start to do some icebreaker. We do in quick introductions, some icebreaker questions, just to start a little bit of discussion, the purpose of this, and then break into we break them into small groups, 4 or 5 or 6, maybe, and we serve some food. We actually allow them to break bread with each other. Right? And then they have these very intimate conversations about what life is like on the inside, Um, what, what, you know, what troubles people on the outside, the inside, how they ended up there, what are they looking forward to do? Tell me about their families. Right? And then you come back into the larger group, and now you share those experiences in the larger group, and then the outside participants gather and go home. The inside participants go back to their units. This is a remarkable, um, Program and it has brought so much humanity to what we do So for the people on the outside, it gives them an understanding that the people on the inside are really not that much different They had a really bad problem with drugs Or a really significant mental health issue, or it was a really bad day, right? Um, or, or it was just, or sometimes honestly, there's a people with a history of criminal behaviors too, right? Um, and for the people on the inside, it's really important because they get to understand that the public, the people on the outside actually care about them. Like, I didn't realize the impact it had on them as much until we started the program. They say, Oh, someone cares about me. I feel like I matter again. And this brought an understanding like we had people come to our facility that had looks on their faces like, like they smelled something bad. Like they were, they were immediately knew that they were going to be under pressed. They were going to be angry at the way that Incarcerated people were being treated or the programming or the facility. They had this look on their face Like they were not they were they were preparing to be mad And maybe that's why they want to come in so they could just see how mad they should be about what's going on inside And then as they left coming out with big smiles on their faces writing an email to me the very next day And then we've done work with these some of these organizations to better the lives of the people inside to a miraculous program that was brought to us by Mark Howard, making a difference in a significant way. Um, and it's really good for community, but it's good for that inside community as well

with such a significant philosophical and psychological shift. As we talked about, people have Uh, thoughts about the system and, and how people are when they're in there and who's in there, and things of that nature. How have you been able to retract, to attract recruits or, or build up that staff of individuals, particularly people of color, women, you know, people that may be vulnerable to some of these crimes. How have you gotten them to participate and being able to keep up that momentum?

Yeah, so, um, so as far as the participation and the engagement. I mean, the first unit was different. I think people were not sure what to expect, but it used to be a culture that exists in many other carceral facilities of people just walking up and down a tier or walking around a pod, you know, just making sure, you know, there's no fighting. There's no open drug use. There's no self harm, right? You know, the basic stuff of what what you'd see in many carceral facilities and now because the specialty units. It took the first one with the veterans that was accepted and then it went into the medication assisted treatment Which was a big change for them and then it went into the young adult offenders, which was a huger change then we brought in pre release women Um, it was another huge change What we found was that with each new program we brought in because people started seeing oh, there's something to there's something that's Something more rewarding, maybe more interesting about doing this work more engaging. And so they started actually signing up for more and more of the training to do the newer units. And as far as the representation, yeah, you want the, the, the. The community, the inside community in the outside community and our staff to be basically representative of each other, right? You can't have, you know, 1 race inside and 1 race outside or vice versa. You got to have it. So it's reflective. So, you know, in our most current basic training academy, we had. Um, 43 percent were white, 22 percent were black, 22 percent were hispanic, and that basically mimics what's going on in our communities at the same time. Uh, and by the way, it's really important that you have women inside, um, in these, in these roles too, because they're, you know, they're, they're, they're in many ways better or at least as good as some of the best men in managing the population. Not physically necessarily, but using their brains. Using communication skills, um, and they're an important part of making a unit successful. When I started, the women were really in, um, the mail room. They were watching the monitors. They were on the outside stuff. And, um, and because of that, too, by the way, they couldn't get, Promotions to sergeants or lieutenants because they weren't experienced in the operational side. So when you're looking for operational sergeant, they had no experience in that. And you couldn't do anything to judge and say, I think they'd be good in here because it would be brand new step. So now we've got more women stepping up. Our latest classes have been more diverse than ever before. You know, what I really love is we've got more people from outside of the country. The language is being spoken from Africa and South America and Central America are, are, that's stunningly varied right now. So, you know, it's, it's the, the variance and now they're getting a little bit older too, which brings in a lot of maturation and a lot of better behavior as well.

Buddy, I got to give it to you. Um, you've put together something that's special. I would imagine, um, that you're touching and affecting. Positively, a lot of lives on all sides of the triangle. Um, and so we're so happy that you came on to share because more people need to know this back to Chris's point. You know, at the end of the day, words paint pictures, um, and when you think of criminal justice and you think of a sheriff, or you think of, you know, prosecutors and, or, you know, convicts, you think of all the negative things, right? And let's be fair, you know, rightfully so in some areas, but to be honest, right, for you to have vision, and that's where we kick this episode off, you, for you to be a visionary, To, you know, play chess, not checkers and recognize by doing this, because I would imagine there's a backlash as well while we spend the money on these people, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but you're seeing it as an opportunity to not only affect the, the inmate, but affect the community, because these people are going to come home and then more importantly, yeah, I think you said it earlier, the, the return rate, So now they're going to become, you know, productive citizens. And even when I read the article about the, um, Frederick Douglass project and the, um, the group of individuals that you talked about, how the community people from the community and the inmates all sat together. I believe 1 of the people from the community said, hey, I'm open to giving this guy a job.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, right. Because they were able to break bread and build those relationships. So, final thoughts, my friend, what do you want to leave with the audience in terms of what you're doing and what you want them to know? And more importantly, what action they can take?

So, um, two things. One, I want them to remember the humanity of the people about whom we speak. As we said, Some of them are trouble. Some of this, some, some of them are, you know, not great people, right? We have to acknowledge that there's a lot of great people there, right? I mean, I speak about them in this way because I should speak about them in the way that I do, but there's a lot of tough people out there, um, that really struggle, right? But they deserve the opportunity to be treated with dignity. I mean, it's not my job to punish them. I'm just supposed to hold them and hopefully prepare them to be better, right? And that's my job. And then secondly, the corrections, uh, professionals, right? You know, you got corrections officers and case managers and nurses, uh, and mental health professionals that care for these people on the inside. And that's a really tough job, right? Um, so one thing I always say, I always call the corrections professionals the silent guardians of public safety. No one really knows who they are, what they do. They know how to say thank you to a police officer. Maybe if they want to or a firefighter or things like that But they don't know what a co does. They don't know who they are So if people get to either if they know a corrections officer Or a professional or they meet one just to say thank you for their service because I think it's a really tough job But it's a really noble profession at the same time,

man. Well, that's, you know, it's been a lot today. I think it's been very beneficial for myself personally, definitely my audience or our audience. 1 of the things that I want to congratulate and thank you for joining us today. Thank you for imparting that wisdom and thank you for as a civil servant. Understanding that these people are your people. And so, you know, you really do embody that and exemplify that. And that's a great way to do your job and make this a better situation for everyone going forward. I'm sure you'll never know the families that you've impacted positively. It's just numerous at this point in time, but that you're doing it for the right reasons, not for the numbers, right? It's not for a spreadsheet. That's right. And, uh, I appreciate that. And I want to thank you, uh, sheriff Peter Koutoujian for coming on and sharing that with our audience.

Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Tony.

He killed it. You're awesome. And I, you know what the other lesson don't take no for an answer. keep moving forward, believe in it, make it happen. So I want you to stay right there because you're going to help us with our call to action. I think it's now time for what Tony's tidbit. So now it's time for Tony's tidbit and the tidbit today. Reform goes beyond changing systems. It's about transforming lives by shifting our perspective on justice. We begin the real work of correction, empowering individual through understanding and redefining corrections to foster community growth. And you heard that today from our brother, Sheriff Peter Koutoujian. I mean, look, this brother, man, I love you a lot. And if anything, a black executive perspective podcast can do for you, you don't hesitate. Okay. You don't all you do is just let us know. We got your back because we need more sheriffs like you in this system. I could imagine there's other people doing stuff as well. But my point is. The hells are the things that make a difference. And back to Chris's point, you probably have no clue. Yes, you probably get calls and emails, but you probably have no clue of the lives that you're affecting, not just today, but those kids lives in the future. It's going to grow up in a more fostered, more loving family because of the programs you put them in. So you stay right there, my friend, because we're going to call you right back.

We want to make sure that we take this time to remind you to tune in to the weekly segment. Need to know with DrNsenga Burton, a black is yet to perspective podcast is where Dr. Burton dives into timely and crucial topics that shape our community and the world. In fact, she's multi hyphenated so deep, so broad, so talented and so full of energy. You have to tune into this. You don't want to miss it. She'll explore so many things that matter. And I guarantee you, you'll love it. Absolutely.

And listen, she's, she kills it. But more importantly, I hope you enjoyed today's episode, Beyond Bars, A New Vision for Corrections, with Sheriff Peter Koutoujian.

We definitely want to make sure we, as usual, we take this time to remind you of our call to action, LESS, L E S S. The L stands for learn, educate yourself as I have today on racial and cultural nuances and the ability to be visionary in these areas and make sure that you impact your community positively. Absolutely.

Because our goal

is

to decrease all forms of racism. So that's why this call to action is very important. So after you learn, you have the letter E since you now learned and become more enlightened. Now you should have more. Be more empathy, have more empathy for your fellow colleague and friend. Going back to what Peter talked about. Understanding once you get to meet individuals, now you can see their point of view.

And S, S is to share your insights and to enlighten others. Uh, something that we've done today, something that I find really interesting. I love learning about this stuff. I love being enlightened. So share your insights to enlighten others.

Absolutely. And the final S is stop. We want to stop all forms of discrimination as it comes up in our path. So if grandpa says something that's inappropriate at the Thanksgiving table, you say, grandpa, we don't believe in that. And you stop it right there. And if everyone, and this is something that Chris and I, we know for a fact, this is the incorporating less is in everyone's control. So if everyone incorporates less L E S S we'll build a more fair. More understanding world, and we'll be able to see the change that we want to see because less will become more.

And can I say what I was going to say? Less is more, Tony. Less is more, right? Let's all do less to do more.

Buddy, that's why you want a black executive perspective, right? Right, because you fall right within less.

You know, you know, once again, Thank you, sir. We, we were, we were blessed with your presence. We want to make sure that everyone in earshot goes to the website, signs up for the newsletter, keep reaching out to us to review, subscribe, listen to us, uh, wherever you get your podcasts, make sure. That you're giving us information that we can take back and grow as a community.

Absolutely. And you can follow a black executive perspective podcast on all our socials, X, TikTok, YouTube, LinkedIn, and Facebook at a black exec for our fabulous guests, Sheriff Peter Koutoujian from the Middlesex County, Massachusetts. We want to thank him. For the co host with the most Chris P. Reed, I'm Tony Tidbit. We talked about it. We learned about it. We love you. And guess what? We're out.

A black executive perspective.