usually we sit here and

have a chat to each other

about crap and we can go

on a tangent, but maybe we

just go full raw dog and.

See where this leads

think we should.

I think, it's a really

important topic.

an interesting topic too.

And I think probably

divisive in a way,

passionate, inflammatory,

and you can probably draw

a few conclusions to know

that we're talking about

the coalition's proposal

to freeze Any updates

of the NCC for the next

10 years, and then the

apparent support from

HA and master builders.

And if I'm being

honest at that point

on Sunday, I was so

disappointed and so angry.

But what Matt and I

really want to talk

about today is I guess in

chronological order, talk

about how we were pretty

pissed off at the time.

And then maybe as we're

gathering information

and talking to people

and really trying to

understand, particularly

about what HIA Master

Builders do for the

industry, then talk about

where we've actually

landed right now, because

I think the podcast that

we're recording today

is much different to a

podcast if we're going

to record on Monday.

What are your thoughts on

I still haven't

really changed a

lot of my opinion.

now my understanding is

while the coalition came

out, which was Peter

Dutton said, hey we want

to freeze NCC for 10 years.

The Labor government when

asked didn't actually

comment in this either.

So I'd love to know their

stance too, because.

Are they just not

saying anything?

Because genuinely, my

thinking is when you

disagree with something

straight away, you're like,

no, I disagree with that.

And them also keeping tight

lipped might mean that,

hey, we're actually on the

same page here, and we're

just not going to comment

and see what happens.

we're gonna let them

potentially, create chaos

and we're just gonna sit

back and see how people

are reacting to it.

But I think over the

last four days has been

a roller coaster of

emotions from so many

people, including myself.

Like, I was very, very

vocal to call this

out straight away.

And I'm very opinionated

and I'm very straight

to the point and

blunt sometimes.

And I always joke that

you're Switzerland Hamish.

And for you to get upset

means that you've been

frustrated and pissed

off and confused and I

think in the industry at

the moment where there's

a lot of confusion,

and today, or about two

hours ago, we have found

out the VBA have been

stripped of their powers.

It's been leaked.

So there's probably gonna

be more to come over the

next few days and we're

gonna talk about that

later on in this episode.

But been a huge

rollercoaster.

I'm still very staunch

on where I sit with it.

I think it's a

load of shit.

That our industry

does not need it.

thinking?

Like, because I think

we need to talk about

firstly, those two

industry associations being

Master Builders and HIA.

Yes, they do do good

stuff in industry.

All right.

We're not arguing

that at all.

But this decision to

back Essentially, a

freeze on the 10 years

is fucking stupid.

I agree with that.

And I think my reflection

after talking to people

over the last few days

have kind of, led me to

understand that this is

one position on one topic.

That HIA and I feel Master

Builders Association have

an influence on, and I

think what I didn't do

in the beginning and

probably what I haven't

done until the last 24

hours is actually take

a further step back and

really think about What

these two organizations

actually do and have

done for the industry

the last 100 or so years.

with Master Builders

and HIA, what people

need to understand is

they are not there to

represent consumers.

They are there to

represent builders.

Period.

we also need to understand

where they're coming from

because people who pay

them for their memberships

are builders and trades.

They are there to

represent them.

They do not care about

consumers at all because

that's not their job.

I guess, as an entity,

maybe, but I think

there's people within that

organization that actually

do care about the people.

I and probably some of

the things that I've been

enlightened on just with

the discussions that I've

been having with people

over the last 24 hours,

that, there are people

within these organizations

who are trying to

do the right thing.

Now, if I zoom out and

I'm going to call a spade

a spade, I got called

out by a couple of people

about, post that I did.

And, you know, upon

reflection, I don't

necessarily regret.

Saying what I did or

posting what I did,

but I will say that I

probably wasn't giving

it a big broader thought.

So if we think about what

these organizations have

done for me personally

over the years, it's

provided me legal support

when I've had issues.

They've got really

great contracts.

They have provided some

education, particularly

when I've been going for

my builder's license.

Now, these are all

positive things.

I think for me.

When I get triggered,

it's when I guess my

values are challenged.

And I think what I found

on Sunday was when my

values around performance

construction the health

of our buildings and

putting these things in

play or making our code

a certain way to, to

make our buildings more

comfortable, healthy,

and, energy efficient

is what's causing.

increases in building

costs, I would

actually call bullshit.

Now, I probably don't know

enough about it to really

understand what has led

HIA or master builders

to jump into support.

But I guess I'm also in a

reasonably tricky position

too, because I'm obviously

part of Sustainable

Builders Alliance and I'm

really trying to, moderate

my emotional feelings

and try to bring out my

more rational thoughts.

Now, I think for us to

really make change in the

industry, I personally

feel everybody needs to

work together because

strength in numbers is

what's going to happen.

But I also feel that

the industry needs

to be separated from

custom builders to

volume builders.

Now, I don't know

how To do that.

I'm not smart enough to do

that, but I think that the

custom residential market

is completely different

to the volume built homes.

Now, I'm not saying that

these homes couldn't be

brought up to higher

energy efficient standards,

but I also feel that they

are dragging everybody

back just with the sheer

weight of who they are

within the industry.

I already refer to it

a bit like you go out

for dinner, all right?

So you want to get a

cheeseburger, Macker's,

it's cheap, it's

quick, it's affordable,

it's, cookie cutter,

it's the same thing

every single time.

And obviously, with that

method, they're able

to get the price down.

But if you want to get a

gourmet burger that's like

a little bit more custom

with some brie cheese, and

I don't know what the fuck

you're going to put on

your burger, it's going to

be a lot more expensive.

All right?

Because you've

customized it.

the same thing.

It's just on a

higher scale.

So you should never

compare, essentially,

that type of burger or

that dining experience.

To a McDonald's

cheeseburger.

I want to go back though,

because I don't think

this is the only time the

HIA master builders have

done something that I

personally disagree with.

They were very big

advocates for not

supporting the increase

from a 6 to 7 stars.

Okay.

So I think that along

with this has made

this problem worse.

I know when they talk

about energy efficiency,

they've kind of been shut

down because they've come

out and said that it adds

about 60, 000 to the cost

of a new build, when really

the Australian Glass and

Window Association said

that it only cost an

extra 5, 000 to increase

from six to seven.

So, One of those

people is wrong.

also, love to know where

Comparisons coming from.

So are we talking

about, again, let's talk

about volume builders.

Is this the volume builder

saying if we're going to

increase the seven star,

it's this design that

we're repeating over a

thousand sites throughout

Victoria and not taking

into consideration

orientation, it's going

to cost another 60 grand

to make that seven star.

I would argue that If

you are designing a

new home from scratch,

getting seven star is a

walk in the fucking park.

And I would also argue

that if you wanted to get

passive house as well, or

close to, you can do that

on a moderate budget, most

sites throughout Victoria.

hundred percent.

And I think the issue with

Volume Builders when we

talk about orientation

is they jump on and

you can pick from any

of their selection of

what designs they have.

When you buy a block,

depending on your

orientation, you should be

limited to certain types

of designs because they

then don't help you with

your energy report, okay?

Plain and simple.

That just should be

the standard, okay?

Then, that's how you get

the cost down because

that design doesn't

cost any more whether

it's on a south facing,

north facing, west

facing, eastern facing,

It's still the same.

All right.

So you should

then be limited to

what you can get.

All right.

Now, if we then take

that to increase from

a say, look, we know

on a double glaze to

triple glaze house window

package, you're looking

at maybe between five to 7

percent extra, maybe max.

All right, to

increase that glazing.

So there is no way that,

on a 100, 000 window

package, that's saying,

suggesting maybe an extra

7, let's just say 10 grand.

I don't know where

that extra 50 grand

is coming from,

I'd love to know the

data points that they're

referring to get to

that number, but Yeah.

Yeah.

I do want to go back and

talk about this toffee

because me personally, I

think that when you're an

industry association that

come out and say there

needs to be a pause on the

unnecessary code changes,

and I'm actually quoting

the CEO here, the Master

Builders Association, a

pause on unnecessary code

changes that increase

the cost and complexity

without meaningful

improvements in standard

is a positive step.

Now, that is just a dumber

statement, personally,

because the code that

we have at the moment

isn't necessarily bad

from what it includes,

the problem is what it

doesn't include, all right?

there is a clause in

that code that now holds

builders and architects

and building designers

liable for mold problems.

It's in there, it's

written in there, it's

been in there since 2019.

But there's no

direction or advice on

how to prevent that.

Okay, there's

nothing in that code.

If you build to that

minimum code, you are

going to get mold and

condensation problems

and then you're liable.

All right, so I think

personally is lacking in

there for the information

to help builders and

designers and architects

to get to the point to

where they need to get

to so we can reduce the

risk of our building and

increase the durability

of our buildings.

Now, going to probably

throw something out there

that Master Builders

and HIA have been openly

aligned with the CFMEU.

They have been for years

and now that has been

removed from them, are

they just playing the

political game and trying

to support both sides?

If you have a look

at the back end, they

both released their

annual reports, which

I got bored and started

reading during the week.

They both donated

to both parties.

Typically, I would say

they only used to donate

to the Labor Party.

They've now also put

in a ton of money to

the Liberal Party.

There's more going on that

we understand as well.

I would also argue, and

again, I'm trying to put

on my sort of Switzerland's

hat here because I, I

also don't want to be,

personally, I guess

branded as someone who's

sitting here poo-pooing

on an organization.

'cause I reckon there is

also things that maybe

we're not seeing too,

and maybe that there are

some really passionate

people within inside.

Master builders.

And, arguably even within

the coalition party who

are wanting to see better

buildings be built.

And this isn't a

sustainability

thing or energy

efficiency, by the way.

I mean, because I

think seven stars

is potentially okay.

It's everything else

that needs to come with

it is important about

building durability and

water and moisture and

all these other things.

Ventilation.

That's more important,

the next step is,

hypothetically 7.

5 stars, okay with 7 stars

being minimum, I think

that's okay, but if you

start to look at everything

else within that code that

you can improve it, that's

when you're going to get

better performance from.

I also just want to

reinforce, some sentiment

that I've expressed before

is that code is, it sets

out the minimum, right?

We actually have a choice.

As a builder and

as consumers and

designers, et cetera,

to build above that.

Now, I've been giving us

a lot of thought and, you

know, even discussions

with the other directors

of sustainable bills

alliance over the last

24 and 48 hours, we feel

that there's a really

amazing opportunity

now for education.

Now, necessarily saying

let's just forget

about what they're

saying and forget

about their position.

I'm saying.

And we can also, one, build

better, but also, is there

an opportunity for us,

and I'm saying you, me,

Matt other builders, the

guests that we bring on

this podcast, Sustainable

Builders Alliance, is there

an opportunity for us to

help educate the industry?

And maybe that'll sort

of start leaking into,

you know, some of these

organizations, and then

they'll realize that there

is a market, and there

are people out there who

want to see these changes.

Thanks.

we need to break this down

into two parts as well

though, Hamish, and I think

we're sort of semi alluded

to this, but we both build

for clients with money.

The issues we have is that

people who can't afford

it, that have to go get the

minimum buy, the minimum

product, that minimum

standard, is how do we

support them and how do we

make sure their building

is going to be durable

and last because they

are the most vulnerable.

They're the ones that

are going to get hurt

the most out of this.

My client's going to fix,

they can afford to add

on another room if they

wanted to or buy and sell

and move and do whatever.

Some of these people, like,

they are putting everything

into that building and

they are then stuck.

So I think we need to

look at a way that we

can support that minimum

standard build because

they are the ones that

can't afford to fix

things in the problem.

They're the ones that

when shit goes wrong,

that the disputes that

they need to deal with are

with the big players in

the game who have large

amounts of money that

can drain them illegally.

and I think that's

where this building

reform will really help

that type of person.

this will lead him very,

very well, like, so today

the VBA pretty much, as

we understand it at this

time, are being stripped of

their power is in Victoria.

Okay, so they will no

longer be the regulatory

body for the builders

and building work.

Okay.

Personally, I think this

is a great thing because

shit needs to change.

Okay.

So VBA has already come

out and acknowledged

that they haven't been

meeting expectations

of the governments of

the broader community.

All right.

And they've taken

responsibility,

which is great.

They've acknowledged that

they've done something

wrong, And where this

has come from that,

essentially, they were

given a warning about a

year ago that they had

to fix what they would

be doing and complaints.

There'd be number of

complaints from people

across the board

about their homes.

And these complaints have

actually been duplicated,

delayed, or they've

actually been ignored

by the VBA for months.

They claimed that they

were doing all this

technical inspections.

Which they

actually weren't.

The VBA staff were telling

people the complaints

that they should just do

their own export reviews

and we're not going to

really worry about it.

They were not looking

at the right areas.

Now, that's been

completely removed.

Okay.

We've also had the whole

issue with the domestic

building insurance with

Porter Davis and that going

under, that's exposed a

massive loophole in the

industry around insurance.

So what it seems to be

doing, and this is my

understanding very, very

early on, and by the time

everyone's listening to

this, this might change

is that they're going to

bring the disputes board,

the VBA, the VMIA, which

is insurance under one

banner, which is a little

bit concerning to me,

too, as well, because if

hypothetically something

goes a little bit wrong

where, Hamish, you might

get investigated, someone

might dob you in because

you didn't do something

right, what if they say,

we're going to suspend your

license for the next two

weeks while we investigate?

Okay.

You have no one to complain

to when you could be

completely in the right,

but they suspend your

license because we're going

to do this investigation.

All right.

I don't like it when

you start combining

everything together.

I think that gets

a little bit scary.

I don't know.

There's been some insurance

issues with the New South

Wales when they've done

this, but New South Wales

have just gone through

a building reform too.

And it seems

to be positive.

who knows what the fuck

happens over the next

few weeks with this.

I haven't read the report

yet, because obviously

it's just come out towards

the end link today,

but I would like to think

that this has been done

for the right reasons and,

hopefully, we're going to

see some positive outcomes

from this, but, also

in the same breath say,

there's probably going

to be some changes that

we're going to see that all

not going to agree with.

everything you just said

before sitting in the

same banner that does

worry me a little bit.

this study they've done

for the last years with

the watchdog to go over it

all it found poor building

standards and unethical

conduct had flourished

in an ineffective

regulatory environment

overseen by the BBA.

Now, this study is also

saying that we have

poor building standards,

which also loops back

to before what we just

spoke about with the

NCC being at a minimum.

So is evident that the

poor building standards

aren't allowing people

to build better.

It comes down to access,

that these things are,

these standards are very

expensive to access and

we don't really have

great access to them.

And I personally think

it's going to be something

that's going to be

great for the industry.

It's definitely

going to clear out a

lot of the cowboys.

But they need a road

path now if you want to

read more on this, you

can go to Google type in

building reform paper to

expert panel on building

reform it's a 75 page

document, which I've

started to get myself

through again, get a little

bit bored and I'd just

like to read up on these

things, but essentially

what they've come out was

about 14 recommendations

on what needs to happen.

Okay, now there is a paper

one that they've done

and I've actually read

through parts of paper

one, which they've ignored.

Thank you.

Bits of advice from that.

The concern I have

about this paper is

they haven't actually

consulted any builders.

All right.

I think that's quite scary

because there's some things

that I personally think

that needs to change.

And I've got them

listed here and we'll

chat about in a second.

But do you want me

to go through some of

the recommendations

that have been made

to the government?

one of the things,

this is a great one.

They need to define

the word developer

in the Building Act.

Okay.

I think that's

really important.

That that needs

to be defined.

And that's a very easy one.

So I'm not going to

create too much change.

I don't think They need

to increase in oversight

and protection for

residential apartments

of high risk projects.

Great.

So essentially what

will happen there is my

understanding is that The

developers will also have

to require some insurance

for like, domestic building

insurance, because I

think at the moment

there's no insurance.

So pretty much when

they move out, that's

on body corporate,

not their problem.

I think that's right.

my very loose understanding

is, is somewhere there,

but, please jump in and

correct us if that's

yeah, yeah that needs to be

fact checked from our end.

recommendation 3 was

to extend existing

accountability mechanisms

to developers, builders,

and other parties.

So they need to extend the

warranties and understand

what happens there.

So extend the warranties

to developers, but

also strengthen the

building's owner's

ability to seek recourse

for negligent claims.

Okay, so again, we go

back to this NCC that

where it currently stands.

That it's very loose

without further direction.

There could be issues

for a lot of builders.

All right.

So you can make all these

changes throughout this

paper saying, but if

we don't clean up the

code, there's going to

be a lot of shit fights.

All right now

recommendation 4 was to

expand regulatory tools

and powers to address

identified compliance

and enforce gaps in

the building system,

including post occupancy.

I think what they're

talking about there is

there needs to be a clear

path on how a handover is

directed and the handover

file and all those things,

which is really important.

I know both you

and I do that.

Already Hamish and one

of the clients for the

house, but I don't know

if that's made on a gen

like a generic building.

I understand.

So, recommendation 5 is

to make changes on how

the regulators communicate

and report on their

enforcement activity.

So, I think that is

something that's going

to hold essentially

this new, we'll call it

the new VBA, whatever

they call themselves.

it's essentially holding

them accountable for

what they're doing.

recommendation six,

and this is where it

starts, we start to talk

about insurance now.

So establish a framework

to implement a mandatory,

liability insurance

scheme for certain

residential buildings

that meet the needs of

consumers in the industry.

So I think what is going

to change more than

anything for you and I,

Hamish and any builder out

there, Is our insurance.

I think what might

potentially happen

is they just do it as

a per dollar figure,

and it's all depending

on where you build.

I think that's

what Sydney did.

So if you're in Toorak

and you build a 2 million

building, that's going to

cost more than a 2 million

building in Sunshine.

To me, buildings building,

no matter where you go,

because I think the theory

is they can afford it.

I don't know

more about that.

There's definitely

people that understand

that greater.

And I will ever will,

and we'll get clarity

over that on the next few

weeks, then we have seven

recommendations on dispute

prevention and resolution.

Now, that is where

if things go wrong.

How it's dealt with,

because at the moment,

I think everyone just

ends up in the DBDRV or

Domestic

Building Dispute

Revolution, whatever

it's called.

And I think everything ends

up in there, which holds up

the system in VCAT, which

makes it very hard for

people to get in and the

VBA weren't doing anything

about these disputes.

And I don't understand this

whole side of things in the

relationship Hamish, too.

We don't have disputes.

We get along

very, very well.

Oh, correct that.

I've had a dispute

back in the day.

And I did go to mediation.

I'm not saying that I

was right or they were

wrong or whatever.

I think it was definitely

from both sides.

But yeah, I'm not a,

am familiar with that

process and I've had, had

it once out of all the

clients that I've had.

But yes, I'm

familiar with it.

So yeah, so something

might need to change there.

Okay, that, that

will come out.

Okay, and then I think that

then there's got a whole

bit on building maintenance

products and technologies.

Now strengthen the

compliance, monitoring

and enforcement of

existing maintenance

schedule requirements.

I don't really know what

that means, to be honest.

Introduce regular, such

as 5 year inspection

periods to assess

whether the building

remains fit for purpose.

Is that maybe pointing

at after 5 years, they

do another inspection?

I'm not sure.

Could be interesting.

just as a bit of a

digression from this,

but is relevant.

We've just gone through a

whole post construction,

maintenance, automation

thing where we're

encouraging clients to

change their filters

and check their HRVs

and clean their gutters

and clean their panels.

to remind them that houses

do require maintenance.

it's good.

I think that kind of puts

a bit of ownership back

on the owner though too.

like, if they don't clean

the gutters, all of a

sudden there's a roof leak.

It's like, well, didn't

clean your gutters.

it works both ways.

Okay.

Now that's a

really good one.

I've also got here

strengthening the

regulatory requirements

relating to complex

plumbing work.

I'm gonna say that's around

a lot of roofs maybe.

And introduce

certification of designs.

So maybe we're gonna have

to have designs within

our plans and our roofing

that are signed off say,

a hydraulic engineer

or something like that.

I think when we talk

about box gutters, that

is one of the best things

that could possibly

happen to our industry.

let's be honest, there's

a whole table and graph

that you've got to follow.

And a lot of the

architects and builders

probably listening will

be like, what graph?

So it's in HB39.

There's a whole table

that you've got to follow.

It's not your

minimum 300 by 100.

That's just minimum

box gutter you

can actually have.

It is all depending on

your roof area and flow

of water and stuff.

So that's something that I

would love to see come in.

Yes, it's going to cost an

extra 3, 000 in consulting

from your consulting fees,

but there's two options.

One, don't design

with box gutters.

Or two, it's going to limit

the amount of problems

that happen because box

gutters are what leaks

and don't get installed

correctly and they fail

to meet compliance.

So therefore, we're

going to reduce

potential issues with

insurance in the future.

So has flow on effects.

Maybe your insurance is

I'd I'd even argue that

it's probably not gonna

be that much, but yeah,

I think there will be an

Yeah, yeah.

So recommendation 14.

This is the one that

I would, I love.

So enable the adoption

of new technologies,

practices and products.

I think that's a good

one because I think we

do need new technologies

to advance our

industry, to get better.

Yep.

I think that comes

back to increasing our

standards around maybe

pre fab we've spoken

about in the past aim.

Mechanical ventilation,

all these things, products

from overseas, maybe

loosening up on what, to

me, if it's been ticked

off in, say, Europe, where

they've got pretty hard

standards on what can be

and can't be used, maybe

we just accept if they've

ticked it off there, we

can tick it off there.

I don't know if

someone smarter than

me can maybe argue the

opposite point of that.

But they're the 14

recommendations that

have been actually

recommended, but it comes

down, it's all about

extending accountability.

All right.

I think it's

really important.

That's the one thing

that they want to reduce

the amount of defects

they want, when there

are defects, they're

fixed in a timely manner.

Again, I think if you

have an architect or a

good building designer

in your project, you're

probably already having

these conversations and

there's people to hold

each other accountable.

Again, it comes down to the

lowest common denominator

where the builders do

the design and build.

And you are stuck

with no sort of help.

All right, so they're the

recommendations, Hamish.

I don't know, do you

have any thoughts?

as I said, I haven't read

it and it, it is all new

information for me to

digest and, and think about

over the coming weeks as

it kind of all folds out.

what a interesting.

Last few days, it's been

in our industry, but

being the glass half full

kind of person that I am.

That I'm surrounded by

all these really positive

influences around building

better and being better.

I still a huge amount

of confidence that our

industry will be okay

and turn out okay,

we in a bubble,

Hamish, though?

you know what, we are

in a bubble, but let's

make the bubble bigger.

let's bring more

people into the bubble.

Because I feel like

it is happening.

If you go back six years

to when, we probably first

started our journey on high

performance, passive house,

the bubble was very small

and now it's getting a

lot bigger and I genuinely

know that just the feedback

that we have across various

social media platforms

over the last 48 hours,

there is a hunger and a

thirst to build better.

And I think there

just needs to be.

Someone, whether that's

HIA, Master Builders,

Australian Passive House

Association or Sustainable

Builders Alliance to

come in and provide the

education to the community.

Or how about they

just work together?

Wouldn't that make

Well, and, you know,

without giving too much

away that these are

actually conversations

that, I've been having

with various people.

Um, I think if we

hadn't recorded this

podcast on Monday, I

probably wouldn't even be

entertaining this idea.

But, you know, I've

come to the realization

that these organizations

do do great things.

They really do do

great things, don't

necessarily think it's

fair to poo poo anyone on

Oh, we can poo poo

people, come on.

I'm trying to be

positive here because

I feel, genuinely feel

that most people want

to do good things.

you don't have any

builder going out, you

know, I'm going to build

a fucking shit home.

I want to build

the shittest home I

possibly can, all right?

And this probably

leads into where I

think the biggest

change needs to happen.

And this is a failure on

our Victorian government

about this because in

2018, they were going to

make an amendment to the

Building Act about the

registration of license

for trades people, which

means every single trade

needs to be licensed.

And I couldn't agree more.

I'm not talking, that

means that if you want

to go paint your own

house or whatever.

That you can't do that.

What I'm talking about,

anyone that wants to do

paid work for someone

else needs a license.

Okay?

Period.

That's it.

All right?

Because that is how we

clean up the industry.

Because once we have

everyone licensed, it

means we can make everyone

upskill and learn.

And education is the

key to getting better.

So I think that is

the biggest thing

that needs to happen.

Now they've claimed

that COVID has pushed

this away and they can

no longer do it due to

demands in building.

I think that's just

a cop out bullshit

excuse, personally.

But we need to have every

single person that works

in this industry licensed.

Now, there's two

ways to do this.

So I would say that if

you want to work for

other people in a sense

of like clients and

you want to hire staff

that you may have an

apprentice, you should

not be able to do so.

And we'll just talk

carpentry here unless you

have a carpentry license.

Because what's happening

if you don't know the

standards and skills of

how to build a house, And

then you're teaching this

future person, you're

only doing an injustice

to them, and we need

the future generations

to be taught properly.

Okay?

Now, there's always going

to be people that flaunt

the system and don't

do things correctly.

But we need to be looking

at the next generation,

how we make sure every

young kid coming up

doing an apprenticeship

is learning correctly.

that's the starting point.

And you start with

carpenters, concreters,

bricklayers, waterproofers.

That is where

I would start.

Alright?

Make those trades licensed.

you know what, a license

in itself creates

responsibility for the

person holding a license.

Done.

Because they're now liable.

, so the part two to that

is, I think that if you,

Hamish, want to come work

for me as a carpenter, and

you want to work under me,

You don't need a license.

Simple.

You can just work under

my license because I'm

the one doing it for you.

that means you can't go

do work for anyone else

in a sense of a client.

You can only work under my

banner and that's how you

control the whole system.

People are going to argue

it's going to make it

more expensive because

they're going to have to

pay insurances and blah,

blah, blah, whatever.

But you know what?

Those insurances are

there should they

need to be claimed.

It's also keeping people

up to date with standards

and it will make it more

competitive in the long run

because there's more people

out there who are licensed.

So, I think that that's

the biggest change that

needs to be made in our

industry at the moment.

I would love to understand

what you think on that.

I broadly agree.

there's been a lot of

things that we've discussed

today, which I don't

necessarily think we've

closed off any of them.

Um, We've probably more

just been talking about

them, from a broad point

of view, but if we're

talking specifically

about licensing, like I

100 percent agree that

licensing and also, um, CPD

points have to be something

that is considered

well, that all of us

as builders have to do.

We are like one of the

only industries that don't

have to have CPD points

to maintain our licenses,

I don't know if I'm

allowed to say this and

I probably shouldn't,

but I'll say it anyway.

So, I sat in a meeting

with the Victorian

government about CBD

points earlier this year.

It's coming.

All right, it's happening.

They were just, we

were just working out

some framework about

cleaning up the system.

And I think that's awesome.

I think we need to do it.

Now, they originally were

thinking of only a few

hours a year, and I made

a very strong point, and

I actually had everyone in

there agree, if you can't

find 16 hours a year to

do some form of training,

not all of it needs to be

formal, you Some of it may

be listening to podcasts

where you can log it or

reading a book or reading

a, a magazine that updates

you on the industry or

or

going to a

s

Builders Alliance

event.

no, that, that would come

under formal because you

would then have the CPD

points log that when you're

there, you, they get a

certificate so that would

be considered formal.

if you can't find 16 hours

a year, you shouldn't

be in this industry.

And you should

probably think of

doing something else.

And if you want to complain

about that and have a sook

about it, well, I'm going

to be pretty blunt and say,

this industry doesn't need

you or wants you and that

might frustrate you, but

if you want our industry

to be treated with respect

and for people to respect

builders and tradies

and start changing this

narrative, if you can't

respect what you do first,

then how can you expect

anyone else to respect you?

And then we need to

start treating ourselves

like professionals.

So the rest of the

community can start

treating ourselves

as professionals.

And it starts with that.

think that's a

really great point.

Point to leave on that.

look, I was kind of

excited just coming

here and s can everyone.

Opening my mouth and

creating chaos because

I think chaos sometimes

creates conversation,

I think it does.

And I actually think this

is the reason why you

and I uh, good co hosts

for this podcast, because

immediately my gut wants

to say something, but I

think it's also important

to listen to everybody

else around and, full

disclosure, like I love.

Your candor, I think

it's very refreshing.

And I do agree that it

can be divisive sometimes,

it's our world though.

I'm a hundred percent

open with the way

that I'll mark it.

Sometimes it is

clickbait to get you

talking straight out.

It is designed to

turn heads and make

people comment.

Because if I write a

blog on this, people

go, Oh, that's a lot of

words to read, but I can

make a 30 second video.

And get people being

asking, questioning

their decision.

All right.

Now, not necessarily I

agree with the way that

this should work and I

should be doing that.

But that is our generation

that people these days

have a short attention

span like myself that

want that information.

In 30 seconds, it's going

to be controversial.

That is how you then get

the conversation started.

And whatever happens from

that goes from there.

Now, you just need to be

educated that sometimes

There's an ulterior motive

or we're trying to be

creative with the way we,

like, put something out

there, but the whole idea

and the reasoning behind it

is to get the conversation

started because sometimes

that is how you get the

conversation started.

And look where we got to.

I had something like

500 people vote on

whether we should

increase the, uh, NCC

standards or reject them.

And freeze them.

And I had 97 percent

across 500 people and I

accidentally clicked my

own company as the wrong

one, which lifted the

percent by the way, and

I couldn't change it.

so we have a huge amount of

people that actually don't

want this to be frozen.

All right.

So I think that

stands for something.

If it was close to maybe

60, 40, then you might be

able to have a conversation

that maybe it's something

more meaningful that

we don't need to.

But when you have 90

plus percent of people

wanting something.

That's a huge percentage.

can kind of echo this

sentiment, but like, I

did a post on Sustainable

Builders Alliance last

night to see, whether

people were excited

about SBA going to a

membership model, and

it was 100 percent

people were excited.

Yeah, 100%.

So I guess slightly

different, you know, I

wasn't specifically talking

about the NCC changes or

HIA or master builders.

I was specifically saying,

are people excited about,

you know, an organization

like SBA becoming a

membership model, which

I guess in a way shows

to me that there are.

According to that poll,

a hundred percent of

people who want to

see really positive

change in the industry.

It wasn't just me

and you that voted.

It wasn't just me.

No, no, no, no.

That was a significant

amount of people

that voted.

Hey man, I reckon

we leave it there.

we actually have another

guest coming up today,

who's, going to be

incredible now, you know,

definitely, uh, stay

tuned over the coming

weeks for this episode.

And that's all I'm going

to say, but I think

this one's going to

be super interesting.

Anyway, Matt, it's

Happy days.

Thank you.

Have a good one.

Ciao, ciao.

Cheers, man.

Bye.