Michael Conner: [00:00:00] Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to another episode of Voices for Excellence. I am your host, Dr. Michael Conner, CEO, and founder of the Agile Evolutionary Group, and of course, the proud host of VFE and today's guest. We added s at the end to make it plural. Two people that I just absolutely adore in the education field.

Michael Conner: Now, before we started recording this episode, I ask each individual, how many years have they been in education? Dr. Mark King has been in education for 32 years, and Ms. Melinda Cook has been in education for 35 years. So if my mathematics are correct. Simple edition. I think my son could be able to figure this out.

Michael Conner: That is a total of 65 years of impact. Now to my audience, when you think about 65 years of impact, cumulative impact, we're talking about [00:01:00] millions of kids that have been touched by Dr. Mark King and Ms. Melinda Cook, Dr. King. It's currently now the CEO of Arts for Learning, and then also has this book that I absolutely enjoyed, the Middle School Master, just the compelling, compelling text that we're actually gonna be talking about and unpacking today.

Michael Conner: And Ms. Melinda Cook, who I absolutely love, who I consider my second mom, is the head of assessment strategies at Riverside Insights and just the, the depth and breadth. Of the research, the data, her passion, her resilience for kids, and then also a true disruptor of the education model. I had to bring on my second mom to VFE.

Michael Conner: And I want to just be able to bring both of these independent experts and their expertise, their technical domains, subject domain expertise, and bring it into this dynamic form. So without further ado, welcome Dr. King and Ms. Cook. How are you [00:02:00] today?

Melinda Cook: I'm doing well. I'm, I'm happy to be here. Michael, you've been trying to get me on your show for about, I don't know, three and a half, four years.

Melinda Cook: So finally here and, and yeah, 32 years in education, starting off as a, a third grade teacher, so.

Michael Conner: It took three years, but guess what? You're on VFE. So welcome Melinda and Melinda is near and dear to my heart. Everybody knows in the education world that how much I truly appreciate and love Melinda and Dr.

Michael Conner: King. Welcome.

Dr. Mark King: Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure to be here. I did wanna make one small correction. I'm the Vice President of education at Arch for Learned in Maryland, so I'm not the CEO, so don't give me that title. Look, my boss has that one and she can have it. Trust me.

Michael Conner: The vice president, uh, excuse me, my fault, I guess I won't speak it into existence, Dr.

Michael Conner: King, but yes, the vice. Hey, Dr. King. I remember when I was a Chief Academic Officer, I always said that I would never become a [00:03:00] superintendent. And guess what happened? It happened.

Dr. Mark King: Okay. Yeah. Look, and I hear that all the time. So anytime it comes up, I just go home and ask my wife, and she's always like, no.

Dr. Mark King: I'm like, okay, good. I can always tell people the truth. My wife says, no, done. That's it.

Michael Conner: The decision has been made. Well, thank. Well, thank you for coming on VFE, both of you, and again. For my audience, I'm going to surgically unpack your specific expertise thread so we can really get in the depth and breadth of your thinking, practice impact, and more importantly, your influence in the ecosystem.

Michael Conner: So this is a question for both of you, Dr. King and Ms. Cook. For leaders that don't know your work in the education ecosystem, specifically within your individual verticals of leadership. What song describes your long tenured impact on student outcomes?

Dr. Mark King: I would have to go to a [00:04:00] old Big Daddy Kane song, young, gifted and Black, because I've always worked in predominantly urban areas, so the students I've always served in, in the systems, I've always been a majority minority.

Dr. Mark King: So yeah, I think I, I think I would go with that one.

Michael Conner: Ms. Cook, what about you?

Melinda Cook: I just love so many songs and over the years there have been different ones, but most recently I, I really enjoyed the movie The Greatest Showman, and I love the song. This Is Me by Keala Settle. And I think the reason I like that song is it celebrates the uniqueness and the power and the gifts in every person.

Melinda Cook: Not so much the production of it, but. That every child has gifts and that we forget, and we, and we often see people just through a singular lens and make judgements based on that. [00:05:00] And I think there's a lot of complexity in every, every little human. And in the education system, as you know, my mission is to see the whole person, the whole learner, and, and to help those kids see themselves as complex individuals and not.

Melinda Cook: As a score. Score and to celebrate their gifts.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Yeah. Melinda and Dr. King. Very, very stark contrast, right? With the songs that were each chosen but interconnected themes. When we think about Big Daddy Kane Song, young, gifted and Black, and this is me when I think of both, right? And kind of creating that.

Michael Conner: I like to say that that creative interface between each of these songs, Melinda, what resonates with me is the uniqueness. You highlighted it, that we usually see an education or only view students in the singular lens when [00:06:00] there's this multitude of complexity that is embedded within our students that we have to continue to unpack to get to the core.

Michael Conner: And when I. Tie in Dr. King's song, you know, young, gifted and Black by Big Daddy King. I usually associate both, right? When we think about looking at students in the singular lens and our student groups, whether it be our black students or or our brown students, students from various student groups, you know, each of these.

Michael Conner: Students have these uniqueness and have these gifts that we have to be able to unpack that defies the traditional practices in the education IE, that singular lens, that isolated or independent node of where now we classify and categorize students. Based off of that singular lens, which is usually Melinda and Dr.

Michael Conner: King, that we know, which is a metric, an achievement metric, to where we now create those expectations, compromise expectations sometimes with our students [00:07:00] as well. But Dr. King? Yes. Big daddy King. Right? I thought you were gonna, I, I thought you were gonna say warming up. Kay. But.

Dr. Mark King: Well, you know what's interesting is at at Arts for Learning of Maryland, we start every meeting with a start with the art.

Dr. Mark King: And sometimes a song is like, I always use this one when I do presentations. What song do you want people to hear when you walk into a room? Mm mm So that's something that, that we are accustomed to. So by my old go through when I do presentations is shaft. So the thieves start from shaft. When, when I walk into the room, people are like, oh.

Dr. Mark King: So it gets people thinking about what do you want people to, to hear when you walk into a space?

Michael Conner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Dr. King, somebody asked me the same question, right? What is my song, my, my introduction song I always say is James Brown. Super bad. But we, we, we, you can't go wrong with the Godfather [00:08:00] soul.

Michael Conner: You cannot go wrong, James Boogie Brown. But anyway, Dr. King, this, this question is for you now. Your book, the Middle School Master, a Practical Guide to Improve Student Achievement and Teacher Performance is a text I think. That really systematically unpacks the middle school model. Now we know about the trans adolescent learner, Dr.

Michael Conner: King. They're in that confusion and identity stage. Middle school is, is, and I'm a former middle school principal as well. It, it's, it's, it's unique. As Melinda would say, but the book Unwraps these critical themes that I thought you really touched upon in a very, very strategic, and I like to say concise manner, leadership, instructional programming, professional learning, and the master schedule.

Michael Conner: Wow. And we're gonna unpack that a little bit, but. You know, the, for middle school students, these are all critical, especially leadership and practitioners. We all can get and can engage with our middle school students in a radically different [00:09:00] way because we have to look at them now from this aspect of generation, alpha, generation, beta, and the impact that technology and the novelty that AI brings.

Michael Conner: But first. Can you provide a holistic overview of your book, first floor, second floor overview of the book, and then second, using the concepts and strategies from your book. How should site-based leaders and teachers foster this element of success with today's learners generation alpha and generation beta?

Dr. Mark King: I think what is most important. To understand about that middle, those, those middle ages and those middle grades of the developmental pathways. So I wanted the adults to kind of understand what they're dealing with coming into a middle school, but I also wanted to make sure that I gave them a roadmap on how to be successful when dealing with children from the ages of 12 to 14, depending on the birthdays.

Dr. Mark King: So I wanted [00:10:00] to make sure that. The leadership understands the role that they play as far as leading middle school teachers through these middle school students, because both of them are in a strange place because when you're in the middle, it's almost. It's difficult to kind of catch up from where they, where they came from in elementary school while also trying to prepare them for high school.

Dr. Mark King: So I wanted to make sure that I touched on the leadership aspect as well as that master schedule. Because if you get that master schedule right, that can make your life a lot easier. And, and let me, let me be clear, I hate the master schedule. I mean, I was a master scheduler for six years, and I hate it because it is very difficult to do and to do, right?

Dr. Mark King: So it literally takes those summer months to get that master schedule right. But once you get it right, now you have set up the teachers and the children to be successful in the middle school, for example, when we're talking about research-based strategies such as collaborative [00:11:00] planning and co-teaching.

Dr. Mark King: So those are things that I built into the master schedule. As was taught to me at Highsville Middle School by Gale Golden, in order to give teachers the opportunity not only to collaboratively plan together, but when you're co-teaching. Another evidence and research-based strategy as far as your special education population is concerned.

Dr. Mark King: Now what you're doing is you're doing re, you're using research and evidence to improve teach student performance as well as teaching performance. So that master schedule is the critical part of it. And when you're talking about putting people in a position to be successful. What we were able to do in middle school was create a a, a master schedule that was based on an eight day B day, which means technically you have to schedule every child twice.

Dr. Mark King: So there's an eight day schedule where there's a departmental planning, and then there's a bday schedule where there's a team planning. So these are o other opportunities for that collaborative planning. [00:12:00] Professional development for the adults, while also giving students the opportunity to experience additional extracurricular classes such as Spanish, French.

Dr. Mark King: You have your visual arts, your performing arts, because those are things that are critical. As I said earlier to the developmental pathway, the children, you give them the opportunity to experience the arts, to experience extracurricular activities because everybody's different. As Melinda was saying, the uniqueness in them.

Dr. Mark King: So everybody learns in a different way, and if you give children the opportunity to demonstrate mastery of a standard in a different way, now you have another evidence and research-based strategy of differentiation on top of your collaborative planning and on top of your co-teaching. So using the model, we were able to implement a seventh grade algebra class, which was a high school class, which kind of got me into a little trouble early in my career.

Dr. Mark King: But there was the opportunity for students to be pushed [00:13:00] past that gatekeeper of ninth grade because that retention rate, ninth grade algebra is one of those things that keeps children. From matriculating on the 10th grade. So we were able to implement that, which also meant you gotta have a eighth grade geometry class.

Dr. Mark King: So now we are, we are sending children to high school who have already had the opportunity and have achieved high school credits because we had a 99% pass rate on the high school assessments. And the one child who didn't pass moved mid-year. So there was a lot of attention placed into that master schedule to create the situation for the adults to excel, which creates the situation for the children to excel, which also gives them the opportunity to experience extracurricular classes to where they excel in those as well.

Dr. Mark King: So that's kind of a overview of what the book is is about, because I guess I wanted people to understand what is possible in middle school, [00:14:00] but I also wanted to give them the plan on how to do it because it's easy to say, oh, just do this. Well, it is a little more difficult than that. So that's why I decided to write the book, to give a step by step guide for those who work in middle schools to use in order to implement.

Dr. Mark King: And put systems in place which children can be successful and adults.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Yeah. And, and Dr. King, I had a chance to read it. It was great. Well written book, a lot of great concepts and strategies to be able to employ and within your answer I this resonating theme, right? I always used to say. Within the middle school model, right.

Michael Conner: Or how the, how the education structure construct is, is designed, is always designed as learning was. Learning is the variable, and time was always a constant, but you strategically found a way via the master schedule where time became [00:15:00] the variable. Learning was the constant. Now taking it just from that independent node of time is the variable.

Michael Conner: IE. Through collaborative planning, through co-teaching, creating new academic and developmental pathways, exploring the arts, Dr. King. Access and opportunity. Right. Those are some of the critical themes that I'm hearing. Can you just, this is a sub-question. Can you just elaborate on when you cre, when, when time becomes the variable, the residual is that it creates more access and opportunity for students specifically at the middle school level.

Michael Conner: Can you just kind of expand on that, the type of impact that can happen through this evidence-based practice?

Dr. Mark King: Um, absolutely. The. The access and the opportunity for me is the equity issue. Because children of color are often denied the opportunity and the [00:16:00] access. So as a result, they don't have the same opportunities that others have to excel in those areas.

Dr. Mark King: You were talking about generation alpha and generation beta. Well, now their access is constant. So as as adults, we are going to have to adapt to them is because they're using ai and we have adults who have no idea what AI is, but. As, as the children push us to adapt, we will become more, well, we will put ourselves in a position to teach them more in how to use these tools as opposed to saying, no, you can't do that.

Dr. Mark King: No. How do we use these tools to increase your, increase your performance, because that AI is going to eliminate a lot of the access issue. But it cannot eliminate the real relational shift piece that drives middle school. So while utilizing ai, you also have to be smart to [00:17:00] understand that it's still a relationship based business.

Dr. Mark King: It's still a relationship, and now, and it is business. This is relational business. Because when you're talking to somebody that's 12 years old today, tomorrow they might be 21 and they're still in seventh grade. So the relational piece is as important as the, the access and the, and the opportunity because those things are the equity issues.

Dr. Mark King: For me, that must be eliminated. Children should have the opportunity to experience every art form that, that, that a school system offers. So there's no reason why one zip code should, should not have vocal music in another zip, zip code does not. So that's the act that that's the equity issue for me, the access and opportunity, and that's what this was all about, creating space and organizations to where children have the opportunity to be successful.

Michael Conner: Absolutely. Relationships is so key. You gave a really simplified answer describing Maslow's work psychological needs. So now, [00:18:00] Ms. Ms. Cook, yay, back to you, Ms. Cook. I love this going back and forth, speaking to two experts at once more. Always have my pin writing. Now, Melinda, the head of assessment strategies for Riverside Insights.

Michael Conner: You immerse yourself with a myriad of different research, myriad of different data. You see a myriad of different models. But one thing that I always hear you state, Melinda, is the integration and strategic implementation of multiple measures. It kind of goes back to the outset of your statement that students usually.

Michael Conner: Are judged by a singular lens without really going in depth to the core of the complexity. Now within this true disruptor that you keep talking about around multiple measures, right? Moving outside of specific standardization of academic metrics, this descriptive lens I always hear you stated, you stated so passionately, me, Melinda.

Michael Conner: About, we have to look at the student's ability, [00:19:00] strength, resilience, and life skills, and couple that with the academic outputs and the metrics that we're concurrently underscoring in education. But what has been your approach, right? Because Melinda, when we think about this, this is a mindset. Right, a mindset shift.

Michael Conner: So how have you been changing mindsets? What have been your approach with that through this articulation, this candid articulation of using multiple measures in research to now change the dialogue about students?

Melinda Cook: I've always believed it philosophically, and, and I think we all do as educators, we understand that little humans are like big humans.

Melinda Cook: We're multidimensional, however, and, and our traditional school system, we have always had to function in a, in a very linear or singular perspective of an achievement score. And we use those scores to sort students and [00:20:00] basically to label them. And that's what we see. And, and, and back to the first question, we were talking to Dr.

Melinda Cook: King. I've known by the way, Dr. King for over a dozen years, and I've watched him successfully navigate these systems and, and developed a keen admiration for him, uh, since I met him when he was in Washington, in DC public school system as a regional superintendent. So I have so much respect and admiration for everything I've seen him do successfully, but it's because of his viewpoint and he sees.

Melinda Cook: Students is multidimensional and doesn't look at them as an achievement score. However, our systems are structured around that and, and every, the decisions that we make for placement and instructional pathways and for interventions are all based on achievement scores. When I came to Riverside, it was very eye-opening five years ago when I started looking at.

Melinda Cook: Ability scores and through, [00:21:00] through assessments like the coga, the cognitive Ability Score, which most people view as just a gifted screener, a gifted test, which that's not what it is. Uh, and I realized it's unique and in our K 12 system in that it finds not the gifted, which it will, but it finds the gift in every child.

Melinda Cook: And we all believe that every child, no matter their ZIP code, has gifts. And I think it's our responsibility to help them understand that they bring gifts to the table and, and, and whatever dimension those gifts are. And, and one thing we didn't mention, whether they were black students or brown students, there are also twice exceptional students, students who have learning disabilities, students who have other challenges or additional challenges beyond.

Melinda Cook: Economic, socioeconomic, everything those children bring to the table that they're having to cope with outside of school or within [00:22:00] the walls of the school. So what I learned at Riverside is if you will look at all of the things and the strengths and the gifts that those children have, their resilience, the grit.

Melinda Cook: Uh, life skills, self-management skills, things where they are strong and areas that we like to refer to as growth areas, not deficits, but growth areas. And so when I deal with district leaders, policymakers, influencers, I like to start with language and trust. Which I have been trying to do for about four years and more recently, working with the the brilliant minds and partners that we have in education and the actual researchers and psychometricians the data.

Melinda Cook: We finally have that strong data that shows that there can be huge disparities between an achievement score and what a student may know today or be [00:23:00] able to articulate in a test score. Can can be very different than what their potential is, where their gifts are, what their capacities could be in the right instructional environment, such as what Dr.

Melinda Cook: King is trying to do, and show them how they can think differently, express their talents and skills uniquely be inspired. Do better and to see themselves through a different lens. And so that's what I'm trying to instill through data, data, the king, but also through language and trust and help shift that paradigm, help shift that mindset.

Melinda Cook: And, and, and this is kind of a indelicate way to say it, but when I'm talking to superintendents, I say, kids know, come to school. Every day, especially in middle school and high school, they don't show up to suck. You know, they school to be seen. They come to [00:24:00] school because they want to do well. They want to have to somebody to see the value in them.

Melinda Cook: And when you can use multiple measures that prove, that show without a doubt, with evidence-based Johns Hopkins research, you know. Millions of, of, of points of data for decades of vetting and, and norms that are national norms, local norms that prove that they have skills and abilities and huge potential in spite of what they may, how they may see themselves or what they've been told.

Melinda Cook: Then you sit at the table with that student. You sit at the table with their family. You sit at the table with their teacher and say, here's your potential. Yes, I see this score. We're not gonna worry about that score. We're worried we're gonna worry about what you can do, what you could be, where do you see yourself?

Melinda Cook: Because you can do this. And then through programs [00:25:00] like Dr. King's, through, through people who believe in these things and who see, as you were talking about, through the adaptability of these kids, and I think this is something we'll talk about later, the exposure, the opportunities through ai. The first thing I want to do is instill hope and help them see themselves and let them see that other people see the value in them.

Melinda Cook: And when you instill hope, my, my very next favorite word is agency. They start seeing themselves that way, and then they take on agency and they start seeking out ways to be successful. So that's how I talk to leaders and policy influencers and experts such as yourselves to try to help them think about our structures and systems and how we can shift from a deficit-based environment and [00:26:00] mindset to a strengths-based.

Michael Conner: Absolutely. And to my audience, Dr. King, Melinda, we use this as an asynchronous professional learning tool where that is really rooted in pedagogy, self-directed learning. And to my audience, Melinda gave a a very captivating answer on how we shift intentionally dimensions of culture. Right, and one of the resonating themes I kept hearing is that we're moving away from this deficit language, this deficit mindset to asset strength-based mindset.

Michael Conner: Melinda, it was so, so compelling. One of the quotes that you just stated, and I think that we need to underscore this, really concretize it in education, which is we are not going to worry about your score. We're gonna worry about you and you reaching your potential. Just imagine, Melinda, [00:27:00] the 17,000 districts that we have across this country, if we were able to have that perspective, that mindset, consistently, consistently across the ecosystem, I guarantee you the narrative about some of our students, student groups, twice exceptional learners, as you stated as well.

Michael Conner: The narrative would change the perspective expectations would change holistically. You said it multidimensional, right? Because usually you're absolutely correct. Our students are placed in these specific pathway specific interventions, specific course trajectories because of one singular metric. But I really love it that we're looking at the student's potential.

Michael Conner: Every child has gifts. I always say that we have to unlock the genius. Within all of our students, and Melinda, that is your answer, provides this really captivating context of how we look at culture. Unpack [00:28:00] culture and make intentional shifts around the strength-based asset-based model. With that, but for the both of you, this question is for this next question is for the both of you.

Michael Conner: Now, throughout your individual careers, IE combined 65 years of impact, right? Each of you have seen students, whether they were misidentified. Inaccurately placed in core sequence based on exactly what you were talking about, Melinda, that singular metric or that cluster percentile, that bench benchmark that students have to reach an example.

Michael Conner: Right. And Dr. King, you kind of stated it from the outset, African American males being identified for special education because of academic. Or behavioral data. Now, the first part of this question is for Dr. King and then Melinda, I'll follow up with you immediately after that. But Dr. King, how do we dismantle this insidious cycle within the education model and the middle school sector where we see it [00:29:00] become prevalent?

Michael Conner: We know that is prevalent.

Dr. Mark King: There's a lot to unpack there, but I think first is the professional development for the teachers, understanding that some behaviors are age appropriate. Because I think there's a disconnect between what the teacher's expectations are of students in the classroom. When you're talking about generation alpha and beta and you're talking about students who we taught 10 to 15 years ago, it was entirely different generations.

Dr. Mark King: So there's entirely different needs that each one has, but it also goes back to the relationship piece that is going to be a constant from K through 12. Like Melinda said, nobody comes to school to fail. Not the adults and not the children. They come to school consistently because there is a relationship with someone in that building that is bringing them to that building consistently.

Dr. Mark King: So when we're talking about the over-identification [00:30:00] of African American males or students of color or or boys into these special education classrooms, you're looking at one of them. I was in elementary school. I was identified in third grade as a special education student. Now understand, I went to five different elementary schools by the time I was in sixth grade.

Dr. Mark King: So when I left the school where I was identified as a special education student, the next school I went to, I was identified as talented and gifted. Now for somebody nine, 10 years old, I realize like, oh, the adults really don't know what they're doing. Because that does not, it was the same school system, so that did not even make sense to a nine to 10-year-old.

Dr. Mark King: But as millennial was saying, the expectations were different when I went to that new environment. So they focused on what I could do well and not what I did not do well. And as a result of that, I excelled at what I did well and I learned. To [00:31:00] do better at what I did not do well. So it's the expectations that we have for children is understanding some things are age appropriate, some things are developmentally appropriate, and sometime the adults could actually be wrong.

Dr. Mark King: If you, if, if you could just imagine an adult saying to a group of 10 year olds, I was wrong. It is the most powerful thing in the world for a child to hear an adult admit they were wrong because it never happens. So now as the adult, you have created a relationship where children trust you because when you're wrong, you will say that you're wrong.

Dr. Mark King: But when you're right and you're teaching that two plus two is actually four, they believe you and they trust you. So it's all relational, but there's a lot of professional development that goes on with the adults to understand this generation that you're teaching is not that generation. 10 years ago, the scariest thing I ever heard a teacher say to me was, I've been teaching this for 20 years, [00:32:00] and before I knew that, I said, I've been teaching it wrong for 15.

Dr. Mark King: Because if you think about it, 20 years ago, there was no ai. So now you have been teaching this same way for 20 years and you wanna know what's wrong with the children? No. The adults are sending the best children they have to the building. It is our job to reach them where they are and move them further.

Dr. Mark King: And if you cannot get out of 2006, you can't teach in 2026 because you are stuck. The children are progressing. So it's, it's, it's an adult problem that needs to be addressed at a leadership level, understanding that there needs to be professional development because these adults are not coming to school to do a bad job either.

Dr. Mark King: They need help in understanding this generation and how this generation learns and functions and what works best for them, but they also need to understand it's gonna go back to relationships. [00:33:00] It's all gonna go bad relationships.

Michael Conner: Absolutely. Absolutely. And Dr. King, well stated, because relationships, I don't care what generation it is.

Michael Conner: Generation alpha, generation beta, generation Z, trust. Right. And when you say trust, you know, I, I always reference a oppressor from Colin Powell and he said, you know, and I quote, and I'm paraphrasing as well, he said that. You are a leader if people just follow you out of pure curiosity. When you think about people following leaders, following teachers, or that influential person, they're following 'em outta curiosity because it's underscored with that trust.

Michael Conner: And Dr. King, you said it correctly, generation alpha are known as the generative natives generation beta known as the quantum native. So when we have quantum and generative natives in front of us, the old fossilized practices. Are gonna create that [00:34:00] tension specifically when we're talking about 12 to 14-year-old generation alpha students.

Michael Conner: Absolutely. Um, uh, Ms. Cook from a, a, a return on investment perspective. Right. An RRI perspective, I hear you talk about this all the time. Really, really compelling, profound when you present this in front of policy makers, board of education members, superintendents, executive central level leaders. What are the academic and fiscal implications based on the research that you have engaged with, and you have read about if multiple measures are utilized from the outset?

Melinda Cook: Well, as we've kind of driven home so far, the academic are, you know, it's, it's off the charts because we're just looking at profiles. We slice and dice achievement data. 12 ways to Sunday probably get a better outcome and it, and it doesn't change.

Michael Conner: So true. So true.

Melinda Cook: So, so if [00:35:00] we could, if we could take, I don't care what assessment districts use, there's, there's several very good achievement assessments that are out there that districts are using.

Melinda Cook: But if we cross-reference those with their potential, with their ability assessment, and we show the opportunities and we show the disparities and where we see the profile, especially now when we're having to close schools and merge schools together. And it's hard to accept if we're, we're pairing a high performing school potentially with a low performing school, and what if we say, look at the potential that all the kids are bringing to the school versus look at what their GPAs are.

Melinda Cook: We start saying if we, if we put the best educators with all this potential, look at how we're gonna lift up our entire community and we start helping the community see and look through this lens of opportunity and potential and growth versus. [00:36:00] All of the negative that anybody ever wants to see. I think it's a whole, the whole mindset shift can, can become contagious and everybody wants to get engaged and support it.

Melinda Cook: So that's kind of the potential That and, and the hope that I try massive return on investment, it's return on investment in the future of that community academically for the student. Potentially. It changes the whole trajectory of their life for more. On a test, it costs under 20 bucks. You know, it's not like it's, it's, it's this significant thing and it's one score.

Melinda Cook: Maybe they take that test two times in there, three times or four in their entire K 12 education. It's not gonna, it's not turning anything upside down. It's something that changes the trajectory of their entire lives and potentially of that whole, the culture of that school and district. And it lifts up the whole community.

Melinda Cook: And so that's a return on investment. It, if you [00:37:00] look at the, at financially, it improves attendance. As Dr. King was saying, it, it helps teachers become more engaged. Students become more engaged, they wanna come to school. You have those meetings with families and you show them, oh, your son scored 85% and quantitative.

Melinda Cook: So they're performing at this point compared to 85% of every other child at this age in the whole United States. They're gonna make that child get out of bed and go to school and saying, Hey man, you got things to do. Here's the career that you could, you know, pursue with that kind of talent. And it reduces behavior.

Melinda Cook: Girls because kids become more engaged. There's fiscal and, and especially if you don't misidentify those students for special education, it's two and three x the cost. Put a student on a special ed track versus keeping 'em in Gen ed. Even. Even, you're not saving it. You're repurposing those [00:38:00] dollars. To support those students on instructional paths that are more appropriate.

Melinda Cook: You're investing in things like arts for Maryland. You're, you're providing opportunities for those students to find success in store and become more engaged and to get excited about learning and understand all the various ways they can, they can be creative and successful and find joy and build a culture.

Melinda Cook: Of health and happiness that teachers enjoy. So you're helping with burnout and retention of staff, but ultimately we've done the math ad nauseum with across states and districts as examples. And just to mitigate 5%, let's say, of over identification in a large German district could save that district 10 to $12 million a year that they can repurpose into.

Melinda Cook: Into more effective and impactive instructional resources to more ed [00:39:00] helping educators, you know, engaging and providing resources and systems that better support their teachers. Um, it's just across the board, it lifts everything up. So that's my ROI.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And Melinda , great. Thank you for that, Dr.

Michael Conner: King. Thank you for that. Because looking at this as an interdependent answer, uh. You know, Melinda, you, you, you hit upon a point that I think is, is critical. It's essential, it's a, I always like to say it's an educational imperative, and what that is, is that we have to change the vernacular in education.

Michael Conner: Right where now we're looking at students differently where this over-identification, this inaccuracy of putting students in special education that has such a, a cost burden to a student when in reality, uh. That student might not need special education. Right. And [00:40:00] when we look at it just from this one independent singular lens, you talked about it earlier, Melinda is called this linear evolution, meaning it's just like this, right?

Michael Conner: This is where now we're seeing cost, cost, impact, and special education, other specific programs where going back to Dr. King's statement. Is that now, if we truly invest in teachers, truly invest in leaders IE through a true, professional, meaningful, purposeful, professional development, professional learning continuum, guess what?

Michael Conner: These students will not be identified or placed in special education because we're using multiple measures to talk about students, not just from the linear evolution of academics, academic achievement, percentiles. Cut scores, everything that we use to identify students in special [00:41:00] education, but now we're building the capabilities and capacity of our leaders and our teachers to truly be classroom practitioners.

Michael Conner: Using multiple evidence-based practices, instructional strategies that now we're reaching all of our students and not just looking at them from this lens of achievement. Yes. I always say this, and Dr. King, you know, you and I being middle school principals, when the kids are engaged, they, they have no time to behave, I mean, to, to act up.

Michael Conner: I always used to say that and people used to get mad at me, Melinda, and Dr. King when I said, if they're engaged. If we move beyond direct instruction where we're talking for about 38, 39 minutes out of a 42 minute period, if we keep 'em engaged, guess what we're gonna have? We're gonna minimize and reduce our level one, level two, level three infractions.

Dr. Mark King: It ta it takes care of itself because as you said, they're engaged. There's no, there's not time to do [00:42:00] anything else. And again, it is not age appropriate for anybody to sit and listen to somebody talk for 40 minutes. I don't care what grade. I mean, I'm an adult. I cannot sit down and listen to somebody talk to me for 40 minutes.

Dr. Mark King: Come on that. But see, those are the type things. To get students identify. He can't be still, he can't sit still. Well, me either. So, so, so I, I'm, I'm 57 now. You gonna label me as special education too? Because, but like you said, it's the engagement piece and that's, that's what's so. Especially about Arts for Learning Maryland.

Dr. Mark King: Why I came on board, it gives me the opportunity to take research and evidence-based strategies, co-teaching, collaborative planning, add differentiation and engagement on top of those with arts integration. So that's something that I could never do in a school or in a school system because there are restrictions.

Dr. Mark King: Oh, you only have 38 minutes of time to do this, and 40, [00:43:00] listen, do you want the children to learn or you want 'em to move every 48 minutes? Because what's most important for me is mastery, and if students are engaged, you differentiate instruction, you add research and evidence-based strategies. And that's why the data that we get in our afterschool program and summer program blows everybody else outta the water because, like you said, it's engaging.

Dr. Mark King: They, they, they want to be there. Attendance in summertime is over 75% in summer. They don't have that during the school year.

Michael Conner: I, I, Dr. Dr. King, I agree with you. Once we achieve reaching our students' zone proximal development in an engaging and intentional way, they're gonna come. They're gonna, they, they, they, they want to come to school.

Michael Conner: So now I want to, and I, I, I wanna focus on professional development. Professional learning plans, right? Because I think that this is really. The core, right? The core of any system, any new [00:44:00] structure, any new, any new tenant within the operating model, specifically when we talk about engagement and agency and now artificial intelligence being embedded within the model in itself.

Michael Conner: Ms. Cook, this is for you. What are the steps, right from, from, from your, from your tenure? What are the steps? To building a robust professional learning plan for leaders in classroom and classroom practitioners around the effective use and analysis of diverse data sets.

Melinda Cook: Well, the one thing I hear consistently over and over and over is we have all the data we need.

Melinda Cook: Don't give me any more data. The thing is, it's, it's not purposeful, applicable data.

Melinda Cook: So

Melinda Cook: I think the first thing our responsibility is, is when we provide teachers with data, it has to be purposeful and meaningful and present it in such a way that it's actionable, [00:45:00] that we provide them opportunities to, to get into their PLCs, and that that data is.

Melinda Cook: Easy to understand. It is tied to strategies. It is tied to resources and that they have guidance and support and opportunities to build out plans and solutions and instructional paths for each student, especially with AI and help those students help themselves. I'm a strong believer in agency and. Help students understand how to take some ownership, help teachers empower their classes on how to be independent thinkers and independent learners, and discerning about, here's the resources we're gonna provide.

Melinda Cook: Here's your options as a learner. This most fits your learning style, your interests, your strengths. This is what's gonna help you shore up your growth [00:46:00] areas and, and just allow that. I think allowing more flexibility for educators and for learners to find the path that's gonna keep them engaged and and to help them, help themselves the best.

Melinda Cook: And teachers, in my mind of the future, are gonna be very imperative and critical to the learning process. They're never gonna not be necessary, but I think their mentors and guides and coaches and. Inspires young learners. I just hope that, that the people who are making these decisions understand that just getting the data is step one.

Melinda Cook: It's got to be a systemic, top down, sustainable system that is bigger than my little brain. I can't solve for that. I just hope [00:47:00] that someone, such as the two of you could figure that out and put it into a system that the regular classroom teacher can use in a time manageable way that is adaptive and engaging and meets well.

Melinda Cook: You know, today's learners that are not gonna sit still, they're connected and they're complex. And to keep them engaged, it has to be relative and it has to be fast-paced, and it has to be something that is aligned with their strengths. And I think a strengths-based future, it has to be our future because nobody's gonna sit there and listen to a 40 minute lecture anymore.

Michael Conner: You're absolutely right, Melinda and Melinda, you know, that is so true. Right? Continuous inquiry and, and I think we need more of that in education where we're continuously testing, scaling, [00:48:00] looking at this strength-based model and finding strategic ways to interface those specific elements into the existing model and how we now change mindsets and practices purposeful.

Michael Conner: Purposeful, meaningful, and actionable. Dr. King now Melinda's sentiments, especially around those three critical themes that we have to make it purposeful, meaningful, and actionable. Right? There's that word that comes out of that triangulation. Accountability. A lot of people get scared of that word, accountability and education.

Michael Conner: But when I think of accountability specifically, now, how do we now take the purposeful, meaningful, and actionable content and strategies and putting it or realizing this into our classrooms so that now we have the output is students student impact, right from the strength based lens, but. [00:49:00] Creating accountability with leaders and teachers, that professional development, the content moves beyond this great or the great discussions that we have, right?

Michael Conner: How do we realize this in our classrooms so that there is a level of accountability for student outcomes?

Dr. Mark King: I think, um, Melinda has said a lot of things that, that are, that are on point. Um, and when she said, uh, about the, don't show me any more da, no more data. No more data. The first thing went through my mind was people ask for more data when they don't know what, know what to do with the data that they have.

Dr. Mark King: I said, oh, I just need one more piece. And if I had this, it would be no. Um, and it goes back to it being purposeful licensing up in 12 different, in 12 different pieces. Oh, yeah. Oh, I just need one more data point. No, you don't. Linda Melinda has hit the nail on the head. If you have a conversation back to relationship piece and you tell a child what they [00:50:00] are good at.

Dr. Mark King: Now as the adult in the classroom, you can hold a child accountable for because we know and agree at what you're good at. As the school leader, I can hold you accountable because we know what the student is good at and we've had this conversation. So now we are going to work from a strength-based place to address the areas of need.

Dr. Mark King: So when you talked about accountability, everybody loves accountability when it's somebody else. Yeah. You need to hold them accountable. You need to hold them. It's, it's accountability is great for everybody else. But now when you're talking about real conversations with students. That drive real change in teacher A practice.

Dr. Mark King: You're talking about something that's purposeful, that's meaningful, and I can hold you accountable to do that. For that through coming in and doing non-punitive, informal observations. And I say non-punitive because every time [00:51:00] the administrator goes into a classroom, there's something wrong. That is what that, that, that is how we were trained.

Dr. Mark King: We are going, we going to write it up. You need to do A, B, and C. Not what you did Well. Like you were taught when you were teaching, the first thing you do in a parent teacher comes and say something good about the child. When you become administrators, all of a sudden you are looking for something wrong.

Dr. Mark King: So, but when you're doing non-punitive, informal observations and you're saying, well, you know what, Melinda, I saw you had that conversation with Mark about his areas of strength. Bingo, have a good day. It only takes 15 minutes. I've been doing this a long time. I could tell you if somebody's teaching in 15 minutes by standing outside the door.

Dr. Mark King: If it's too quiet in a classroom, there's no learning going on, so I can hold you accountable. Because when I come in, I'm looking for the positives. [00:52:00] Continue to do this. Maybe you should think about this instead of that, not, why did you do this? That was the wrong move. You're scaffolding too. But listen, nobody comes to work to do a bad job.

Dr. Mark King: When you go in and you do informal observations, non punitively. You give them actionable feedback. It's just like, Hey, this research, this feedback is one of the top 10, top 10 things that makes people improve better. So when you're talking about actionable steps, tell people what they're doing, right?

Dr. Mark King: Continue to do that. But also think about this. This is not your midyear observation. This is not your formal observation. This is me trying to help you improve in real time. That's what the, that's, that is the professional development that teachers need that we don't teach administrators to provide. So there's the disconnect because the same way the administrator goes there, look at something wrong [00:53:00] now the teacher look at something wrong in the student.

Dr. Mark King: So it's, it, it's, it's, it's an ugly game that we play, but we're playing with people's lives. That is what is really scary. So as the administrator, what are you doing to help your teacher improve? As the teacher, what are you doing to help the students improve? That's the game that we should be playing because we are setting them up for failure.

Dr. Mark King: Do you know how many times I've heard a child say, man, I don't never do nothing? Right? They didn't make that. They didn't make that up. They have heard that for so long. Now they've internalized it and they believe it, and it's our fault. The, the problem with schools or the people over 18, that's the problem.

Dr. Mark King: We, we, we do, we do so much negative stuff to students that we don't even realize it.

Michael Conner: Dr. Dr. King, I'm, I'm going to [00:54:00] take that snippet and I'm just gonna play it across the, the world. Right. The problems are truly 18 and above. I love the non-punitive observations I kept on referencing Dr. King, the, uh, what I call the instructional triangle of instructional coaching, analytical, many observations.

Michael Conner: That is rooted in evidence-based feedback, but highlighting, I always like to say the PROMIS and practices of our practitioners, so that now is not just from this negative lens or this negative connotation of. The evaluation process. I, I loved both answers and, and how it was intentionally aligned or intentionally interfaced with one another.

Michael Conner: But this is gonna be very hard to do on this last question, Dr. King and Ms. Cook, but I'm gonna try to limit you to three words. Only three words. Now that's, it's tough. I, I mean, I'm gonna try to [00:55:00] do it. 65 years of combined educational experience to three words. I, I, I say this to everybody that comes onto this podcast.

Michael Conner: Take it as it is, what three words, Dr. King and Ms. Cook, do you want today's audience to leave our episode regarding the potential, the strength? Collective strengths of generation, alpha and generation beta, and this paradigm of what I call the AC stage of education after COVID-19,

Dr. Mark King: you expect

Dr. Mark King: a former principal to use three words.

Dr. Mark King: You know, what happens when you give a principle of microphone duty? Okay. Um, no seriously, um, engagement.

Dr. Mark King: Differentiation,

Dr. Mark King: arts integration.

Michael Conner: You're, you're, you're, you're a [00:56:00] rule follower. Usually people don't listen to me, so

Dr. Mark King: I'm trying, I'm trying, but I'm just, because when you say, I was just like, oh my. But through the conversation, those are things that stood out to me as game changers, uh, differentiation, engagements, arts integration.

Dr. Mark King: Yeah. But those, those three.

Michael Conner: Ms. Cook y your three words. Now I've known you Ms. Cook for a long time now, and I was waiting to ask this question to see you limited the three words.

Melinda Cook: Well, I've seen your podcast, so I may or may not have known this question was coming. So I, and I have eight grandchildren that are in that, in that zone.

Melinda Cook: So I would say complex, have a lot of complexity. Connected there. Technology is constant, so connected to the world, to one another, to [00:57:00] everything. So connected. That's my relevance. And then adaptive adaptability. We have to be evolving all the time. So complex, connected and adaptive is how I'd describe it.

Michael Conner: Absolutely.

Melinda Cook: And as adults we have to be the same way. If we're gonna keep up as di. That was one of the first things Dr. King said when he started talking today. And I was like, well, I think we're on the same page.

Dr. Mark King: We have been for over 15 years, Melinda, for over.

Melinda Cook: Yeah, we have. So, and I'm so happy to be on this show with you and Michael too, and my favorite people.

Melinda Cook: So,

Michael Conner: oh, Melinda, I love you to death and to my audience. We got a two for one, we got six instead of three. Dr. King, engagement, differentiation. Arts integration and Ms. Cook, complex, connected and adaptive. Dr. King, Ms. Cook, thank you for coming on VFE and I know that today. Resonated with [00:58:00] many, many, many people that will be watching this podcast episode, but Melinda, Dr.

Michael Conner: King, if anybody wanted to get in contact with you, Ms. Cook first, what is your email? How would they be able to contact you to further expand on the ideas and strategies that you talked about?

Melinda Cook: Oh, my email at Riverside would is very simple. Melinda.Cook@Riversideinsights.

Michael Conner: And Dr. King, if anybody, let's say in the Baltimore area Northeast, want to come down to see you, really learn about Arts for Learning, or even just pick your brain as being a former principal, regional superintendent, how would they be able to get in touch with you?

Dr. Mark King: Um, Dr. Mark E. King at Gmail. D-R-M-A-R-K-E-K-I-N-G at Gmail.

Michael Conner: Dr. King and Ms. Cook, it was an absolute honor to have you on VFE. I [00:59:00] remember our, our last meeting that we had, it was such, it was such an invigorating conversation, discussion, meeting that I couldn't even wait. To actually record this episode, but taking time out of your busy days.

Michael Conner: Thank you again. I know that this is gonna be a really, really, really, really good episode where a lot of people are gonna have their notebook in handy taking notes, especially learning from each of you, Dr. King and Ms. Cook. So thank you for coming on VFE.

Dr. Mark King: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Michael Conner: Absolutely. And on that note, onward and upward. Everybody have a great evening.