1 00:00:37,363 --> 00:00:39,553 W. Curtis Preston: Hi, and welcome to Backup Central's Restore it 2 00:00:39,553 --> 00:00:41,173 All podcast, I'm your host, W. 3 00:00:41,173 --> 00:00:42,913 Curtis president, AKA, Mr. 4 00:00:42,913 --> 00:00:43,353 Backup. 5 00:00:43,723 --> 00:00:48,853 And I have with me as always the guy who's doing a really poor job of talking me out 6 00:00:48,853 --> 00:00:51,573 of buying a Tesla Prasanna Malaiyandi. 7 00:00:51,833 --> 00:00:52,983 it going Prasanna? 8 00:00:53,553 --> 00:00:54,163 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I'm good Curtis. 9 00:00:54,163 --> 00:00:58,213 Now, to be fair, I never tallked you into buying it. 10 00:00:58,218 --> 00:00:58,813 I'm just 11 00:00:58,973 --> 00:01:01,853 W. Curtis Preston: I told you that your job was to talk me out of buying a. 12 00:01:03,653 --> 00:01:04,223 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 13 00:01:04,433 --> 00:01:05,183 Yeah. 14 00:01:05,333 --> 00:01:06,263 Yeah. 15 00:01:06,623 --> 00:01:11,123 Well, I think it's for reasons that you want right where you wanna try some 16 00:01:11,123 --> 00:01:13,463 new technology, it could make sense. 17 00:01:13,468 --> 00:01:16,643 Plus, I know that you've been also a little stressed about your 18 00:01:16,643 --> 00:01:17,873 car that you currently drive. 19 00:01:19,088 --> 00:01:19,898 W. Curtis Preston: yeah, yeah. 20 00:01:19,898 --> 00:01:20,418 There's that? 21 00:01:21,068 --> 00:01:25,628 Um, it's not sure, not sure how long it's gonna be. 22 00:01:25,808 --> 00:01:27,428 Uh, and well, and also I'm. 23 00:01:28,793 --> 00:01:31,853 I'm getting the case of FOMO, cuz I got a new car for my wife. 24 00:01:31,853 --> 00:01:35,594 So, um, you know, maybe it's just, it's not FOMO. 25 00:01:35,594 --> 00:01:36,284 It's just, uh, 26 00:01:36,989 --> 00:01:43,289 Prasanna Malaiyandi: It is a bit of it is well, it's only jealousy and FOMO. 27 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,169 If you never get to steal the car from her, you know, 28 00:01:47,294 --> 00:01:47,774 W. Curtis Preston: yeah. 29 00:01:48,134 --> 00:01:48,614 Yeah. 30 00:01:48,764 --> 00:01:50,834 I'm sure she'll get many more miles on it than I will. 31 00:01:51,344 --> 00:01:54,344 Prasanna Malaiyandi: or you should tell by the way, it's about six weeks delayed. 32 00:01:54,374 --> 00:01:55,724 Um, don't worry about it. 33 00:01:55,724 --> 00:01:56,624 It'll eventually be 34 00:01:59,069 --> 00:02:00,719 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, well, honey, I, yeah, sorry. 35 00:02:00,719 --> 00:02:02,459 The, uh, the car's not gonna be here. 36 00:02:02,519 --> 00:02:05,369 It's um, it's yeah, it's 37 00:02:05,414 --> 00:02:06,674 Prasanna Malaiyandi: they had an issue with shipping. 38 00:02:07,034 --> 00:02:07,414 I'm sorry. 39 00:02:08,034 --> 00:02:10,064 And don't worry about that new car that's in their driveway. 40 00:02:10,064 --> 00:02:10,904 It's totally fine. 41 00:02:10,904 --> 00:02:13,064 It's someone else's car don't know whose that is. 42 00:02:13,949 --> 00:02:14,459 W. Curtis Preston: Uh, yeah. 43 00:02:14,459 --> 00:02:18,499 Why does my new car have 10,000 miles it already? 44 00:02:19,109 --> 00:02:20,294 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Oh, Curtis. 45 00:02:20,399 --> 00:02:23,399 W. Curtis Preston: The Tesla is like a LTO, uh, tape drive. 46 00:02:23,999 --> 00:02:26,999 Like it costs a lot to get into it, but then the media is cheap. 47 00:02:30,134 --> 00:02:31,204 Prasanna Malaiyandi: that is probably true. 48 00:02:31,559 --> 00:02:32,759 W. Curtis Preston: yeah, it's a little bit like that. 49 00:02:32,939 --> 00:02:33,599 Um, 50 00:02:33,719 --> 00:02:36,269 Prasanna Malaiyandi: you, you just made a reference to LTO tape with the Tesla. 51 00:02:36,599 --> 00:02:41,069 I can, I, I can see people like turning over and watch Elon 52 00:02:41,069 --> 00:02:42,719 Musk is now going to tweet you. 53 00:02:43,829 --> 00:02:45,619 being like, I cannot believe you compared. 54 00:02:46,799 --> 00:02:47,309 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 55 00:02:47,339 --> 00:02:51,839 I think, um, Elon paying any attention to me is highly 56 00:02:51,839 --> 00:02:53,519 unlikely, but, you know, we'll see. 57 00:02:54,269 --> 00:02:54,929 Um, 58 00:02:54,959 --> 00:02:58,559 Prasanna Malaiyandi: for our listeners, if you feel like you want to get Elon 59 00:02:58,859 --> 00:03:04,349 to respond to Curtis about this, please tag him on Twitter, along with Curtis. 60 00:03:04,559 --> 00:03:06,269 And let's see if we can get Elon to respond. 61 00:03:06,899 --> 00:03:07,469 W. Curtis Preston: yeah. 62 00:03:07,589 --> 00:03:08,419 Good luck with that. 63 00:03:08,519 --> 00:03:11,189 Uh, that, that wouldn't, you know, it wouldn't hurt the, uh, you know, 64 00:03:11,189 --> 00:03:12,689 the listenership of the podcast. 65 00:03:12,689 --> 00:03:13,109 I'm sure. 66 00:03:13,109 --> 00:03:18,599 But, um, yeah, so I compared a Tesla to an LTO tape drive. 67 00:03:19,259 --> 00:03:24,539 And I think it's a pretty good comparison, but, uh, speaking of inexpensive media, 68 00:03:24,869 --> 00:03:27,149 we have, uh, an exciting guest today. 69 00:03:27,154 --> 00:03:30,269 We, we have talked about, uh, M-Disc before. 70 00:03:30,509 --> 00:03:34,739 Our guest today is a full professor at BYU, having been there since 71 00:03:34,739 --> 00:03:39,419 1992, uh, also having taught at Utah State and Snow College. 72 00:03:39,799 --> 00:03:40,489 Prior to that. 73 00:03:40,489 --> 00:03:43,939 He was a design engineer for IBM in Arizona. 74 00:03:44,149 --> 00:03:48,319 He is one of two co-founders of M-Disc, which we have talked about 75 00:03:48,319 --> 00:03:53,589 on this, uh, podcast a couple times, welcome to the podcast, Barry Lunt. 76 00:03:54,349 --> 00:03:55,249 Barry Lunt: Thank you very much. 77 00:03:55,309 --> 00:03:56,329 Good to be with you guys. 78 00:03:57,859 --> 00:03:59,629 W. Curtis Preston: So, uh, um, 79 00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:03,839 Prasanna Malaiyandi: but before you get into it, Barry, would you say, would 80 00:04:03,844 --> 00:04:06,269 you say Curtis' analogy was accurate? 81 00:04:07,364 --> 00:04:10,484 Barry Lunt: Oh, you want me to opine on that? 82 00:04:11,804 --> 00:04:13,034 Well, actually I quite liked it. 83 00:04:13,034 --> 00:04:14,264 I think there are some similarities. 84 00:04:16,394 --> 00:04:21,404 W. Curtis Preston: And like LTO, uh, Tesla has a lot of haters. 85 00:04:21,929 --> 00:04:22,049 Prasanna Malaiyandi: yeah. 86 00:04:23,264 --> 00:04:25,844 W. Curtis Preston: There's a lot of people that, that like it, you 87 00:04:25,844 --> 00:04:27,884 know, and the people that like tape. 88 00:04:28,904 --> 00:04:29,834 And people are like, you know what? 89 00:04:29,834 --> 00:04:31,154 It's it's like M-Disc, right. 90 00:04:31,364 --> 00:04:34,334 There are people that are big fans of M-Disc, and then there are people 91 00:04:34,339 --> 00:04:37,724 that just, well, they don't, I don't think M-Disc really has any haters. 92 00:04:37,724 --> 00:04:41,444 I think there there's, there's some non-believers and I 93 00:04:41,639 --> 00:04:42,179 Barry Lunt: For sure. 94 00:04:42,289 --> 00:04:46,794 W. Curtis Preston: can talk about that and, um, I want to, 95 00:04:48,834 --> 00:04:50,654 um, so we've covered M-Disc. 96 00:04:50,994 --> 00:04:53,594 Prasanna, do you have episode names and numbers? 97 00:04:53,924 --> 00:04:58,334 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yes, we covered M-Disc in, uh, let's see, episode 98 00:04:58,334 --> 00:05:03,344 160 "Is M-Disc the ultimate archive medium for SMB and home users." 99 00:05:04,424 --> 00:05:05,414 So go take a listen. 100 00:05:05,414 --> 00:05:11,144 That was kind of Curtis's and my take on M-Disc based on information that 101 00:05:11,144 --> 00:05:12,764 Daniel Rose Hill had shared with us. 102 00:05:14,009 --> 00:05:16,829 Barry, uh, like Curtis was saying, you kind of have the people who 103 00:05:16,829 --> 00:05:19,769 love M-Disc and you kind of have the haters who may not be there. 104 00:05:19,949 --> 00:05:22,739 I think there's actually a third group, which is probably a significant group of 105 00:05:22,739 --> 00:05:24,899 people who don't even know M-Disc exists. 106 00:05:25,724 --> 00:05:28,544 W. Curtis Preston: and I think that's a, I think that's, that's the biggest group. 107 00:05:28,694 --> 00:05:31,484 Um, and, and I was in that group 108 00:05:31,619 --> 00:05:32,969 Prasanna Malaiyandi: yeah, both of us work. 109 00:05:33,344 --> 00:05:33,644 W. Curtis Preston: yeah. 110 00:05:33,704 --> 00:05:34,724 Up until Daniel. 111 00:05:34,844 --> 00:05:42,089 Um, you know, I, I, I mean, at this point, My, my day job is one of, of doesn't 112 00:05:42,089 --> 00:05:43,619 have anything to do with optical media. 113 00:05:43,619 --> 00:05:47,009 I should probably throw out our usual disclaimer, Prasanna and I 114 00:05:47,099 --> 00:05:48,389 both work for different companies. 115 00:05:48,389 --> 00:05:49,139 He works for Zoom. 116 00:05:49,144 --> 00:05:49,949 I work for Druva. 117 00:05:50,339 --> 00:05:54,029 This is not a podcast of either company not sponsored by them 118 00:05:54,034 --> 00:05:55,289 or, uh, anything like that. 119 00:05:55,679 --> 00:05:59,009 Uh, and, um, the opinions that you hear are ours. 120 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,969 If you would like to join us on the podcast, please do so. 121 00:06:02,969 --> 00:06:05,519 Just reach out to me @wcpreston on Twitter. 122 00:06:05,854 --> 00:06:08,054 Or WcurtisPreston@gmail 123 00:06:08,444 --> 00:06:12,494 Also please rate us ratethispodcast.com/restore. 124 00:06:13,344 --> 00:06:17,514 So thanks to Daniel, which is, uh, you know, he calls himself a term. 125 00:06:17,519 --> 00:06:19,444 I hadn't even heard before backup anorak. 126 00:06:19,464 --> 00:06:24,774 We had him on the, on the podcast and he turned us on to M-Discs. 127 00:06:25,074 --> 00:06:30,174 So what I'd like to, so, so first let's just do a quick. 128 00:06:30,769 --> 00:06:35,137 You know, summary of what, how you would describe M-Disc today. 129 00:06:35,285 --> 00:06:36,815 Barry Lunt: Of of how I would describe it. 130 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:37,340 W. Curtis Preston: Yes. 131 00:06:37,390 --> 00:06:40,030 Somebody's never heard, they, they know what a DVD is, right. 132 00:06:40,030 --> 00:06:42,280 Or they know what a Blu-Ray is, but they don't know what 133 00:06:42,340 --> 00:06:43,840 they don't know what M-Disc is. 134 00:06:43,840 --> 00:06:46,000 So how, how would you describe that? 135 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,410 You know, relatively shortly. 136 00:06:48,335 --> 00:06:48,625 Barry Lunt: Yeah. 137 00:06:48,805 --> 00:06:53,050 So, uh, if you die, And a thousand years from now, your great, your, 138 00:06:53,050 --> 00:06:56,290 your descendants want to learn something about you and they find 139 00:06:56,290 --> 00:06:57,910 this something up in the attic. 140 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,380 If it's digital, which everything is today, it will have nothing on it. 141 00:07:02,710 --> 00:07:05,140 All, all digital media degrades with time. 142 00:07:05,140 --> 00:07:08,600 And then a thousand years, it will have nothing on it, except for the M-Disc. 143 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:10,600 The M-Disc will still be readable. 144 00:07:11,170 --> 00:07:15,100 And we suspect that people will have a way to read the disk because it's easy today. 145 00:07:15,100 --> 00:07:16,630 It's cheap in thousand years. 146 00:07:16,630 --> 00:07:18,150 I can't imagine that would be difficult. 147 00:07:18,865 --> 00:07:23,195 So the, the data that was recorded thousand years ago will still be there. 148 00:07:24,745 --> 00:07:30,475 W. Curtis Preston: And so it is an optical medium, but it's dif it's different than 149 00:07:30,475 --> 00:07:32,725 the op than the other optical mediums. 150 00:07:32,725 --> 00:07:33,235 How. 151 00:07:34,150 --> 00:07:36,550 Barry Lunt: It is different in what we call a recording layer. 152 00:07:36,610 --> 00:07:40,420 You know, you have polycarbonate, which is the base material for the optical disc. 153 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,020 And then you put a layer of material that is light sensitive so that you 154 00:07:44,020 --> 00:07:48,220 can use a laser to actually change the nature of that material and record 155 00:07:48,220 --> 00:07:49,852 your ones and zeros. 156 00:07:49,852 --> 00:07:50,260 Most 157 00:07:50,260 --> 00:07:53,290 Barry Lunt: of the, uh, well, all optical discs, except for the M-disc use a 158 00:07:53,290 --> 00:07:58,345 recordable dye and that dye is organic, which means that it degrades with time. 159 00:07:58,495 --> 00:08:00,955 And of course it has to be light sensitive, which means if you put 160 00:08:00,955 --> 00:08:04,405 it in the light, the light's going to erase it relatively quickly. 161 00:08:04,405 --> 00:08:07,835 Within a matter of years, depending on how intense the light, ours is 162 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,765 only light sensitive in that it absorbs light, but it's like stone. 163 00:08:11,765 --> 00:08:14,585 It's like using a laser to etch pictures in stone. 164 00:08:14,585 --> 00:08:17,045 Once they're there, you cannot remove them. 165 00:08:17,045 --> 00:08:20,315 You have to physically destroy the disc in order to remove the data. 166 00:08:20,585 --> 00:08:22,075 It cannot be rerecorded. 167 00:08:22,850 --> 00:08:27,980 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So basically all the CDs DVDs that I have in my closet 168 00:08:27,980 --> 00:08:30,860 from things that I've burned, they're probably useless now because they were 169 00:08:30,860 --> 00:08:32,940 burned probably like 20 years ago. 170 00:08:33,680 --> 00:08:34,070 Barry Lunt: Yes. 171 00:08:34,075 --> 00:08:37,160 If you burn them, it's, uh, highly likely that the data's not there. 172 00:08:37,165 --> 00:08:40,865 Now, if you buy them in the store, they're not recordable 173 00:08:40,865 --> 00:08:44,675 discs, meaning the data has already been recorded and it's recorded on 174 00:08:44,675 --> 00:08:45,875 them by a very different method. 175 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:46,955 It's a stamping method. 176 00:08:47,225 --> 00:08:50,495 And then, uh, we deposit a metal reflective layer on top of 177 00:08:50,500 --> 00:08:52,625 that, and that's very permanent. 178 00:08:52,655 --> 00:08:56,345 The N I S T did some studies and they showed that it has a lifetime 179 00:08:56,345 --> 00:09:01,895 of about 1500 years on these permanently, uh, stamped discs. 180 00:09:01,895 --> 00:09:04,265 So that that's good, but you can't record those. 181 00:09:05,610 --> 00:09:07,620 W. Curtis Preston: We brought you on to talking about the M-Discs, but the 182 00:09:07,620 --> 00:09:12,900 only if I want to call it competing, there, there is something that, 183 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:14,790 that I've, that I've heard about. 184 00:09:15,510 --> 00:09:19,730 People talk about an archive quality DVD. 185 00:09:21,630 --> 00:09:22,980 What do you know about that? 186 00:09:23,735 --> 00:09:24,345 Barry Lunt: Quite a bit. 187 00:09:24,345 --> 00:09:29,205 We did a lot of studies when we had the, when Milleniata was a, a going enterprise. 188 00:09:29,595 --> 00:09:32,145 And we did a whole lot of studies that I've published on 189 00:09:32,145 --> 00:09:33,615 the comparison between those. 190 00:09:34,005 --> 00:09:37,185 And of course the Naval weapons research center did an independent 191 00:09:37,185 --> 00:09:41,025 study for us because they were concerned about storing data for a long time. 192 00:09:41,355 --> 00:09:43,965 And they published their results independent of the company. 193 00:09:44,445 --> 00:09:49,515 And basically they looked at the very top archival quality recordable optical 194 00:09:49,515 --> 00:09:54,945 discs and compared them to the M disc and ours went out by a long, long, long ways. 195 00:09:54,945 --> 00:09:57,795 Our, all of theirs died during the test. 196 00:09:58,095 --> 00:09:59,925 Ours actually slightly improved. 197 00:09:59,925 --> 00:10:03,555 We won't, we don't claim that it improved because we can't see how it could, but 198 00:10:03,555 --> 00:10:06,075 it, it, our disc did not get worse at all. 199 00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:10,020 W. Curtis Preston: how, how do you get, uh, how do 200 00:10:10,140 --> 00:10:11,260 Prasanna Malaiyandi: How would you improve it? 201 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,740 W. Curtis Preston: cause if it, you know, I would assume that it's like a 202 00:10:13,740 --> 00:10:15,690 hundred percent, that's like baseline. 203 00:10:15,690 --> 00:10:18,090 So how do you improve from that? 204 00:10:19,140 --> 00:10:20,340 Barry Lunt: that's a really good question. 205 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:26,340 Um, digital data is, you know, we like to think of it as ones and zeros. 206 00:10:26,340 --> 00:10:29,280 And when you read it back, we turn it into ones and zeros. 207 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:33,180 But in reality, what you do is you change the optical properties of the disc. 208 00:10:33,180 --> 00:10:36,600 So in some places it reflects well in other places, it doesn't. 209 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,430 And we call those ones and zeros. 210 00:10:38,910 --> 00:10:41,550 Well, it turns out that every time you read data back, no matter 211 00:10:41,550 --> 00:10:42,870 what you stored on hard disc. 212 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:49,170 Optical discs, LTO tapes, whatever you or flash drives, whatever you store it on. 213 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:50,910 When you read it back, it doesn't come out. 214 00:10:50,910 --> 00:10:51,420 Perfect. 215 00:10:51,780 --> 00:10:55,560 And so we fix that on the fly, using what we call error correction coding. 216 00:10:56,220 --> 00:10:59,400 Well, we can simply look at those errors as they come in and 217 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:00,840 see them before they're fixed. 218 00:11:01,230 --> 00:11:01,950 So clearly if I have. 219 00:11:02,715 --> 00:11:07,215 20 errors and a competing disc has 50 errors, then mine's better, 220 00:11:07,215 --> 00:11:08,295 but they're both correctable. 221 00:11:08,295 --> 00:11:10,515 And therefore in the end, they wind up with zero errors because 222 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,425 they're all correctable errors, but eventually you reach a point where 223 00:11:13,665 --> 00:11:16,875 there are too many errors and you no longer can correct the model. 224 00:11:16,875 --> 00:11:21,675 And so the disc fails to read correctly, but that's how we assess the quality 225 00:11:21,675 --> 00:11:24,655 of the, the data is looking at the errors before they're corrected. 226 00:11:26,985 --> 00:11:27,685 Prasanna Malaiyandi: That makes sense. 227 00:11:28,215 --> 00:11:31,395 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, that, that does the, uh, that's, that's how you 228 00:11:31,395 --> 00:11:35,295 get better than, than a hundred percent because, because a hundred percent really 229 00:11:35,295 --> 00:11:36,315 isn't a hundred percent, that's the 230 00:11:36,390 --> 00:11:37,050 Barry Lunt: That's right. 231 00:11:37,095 --> 00:11:37,365 W. Curtis Preston: still. 232 00:11:37,455 --> 00:11:41,115 And, and I, I don't think, I think the average, it person understands 233 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,045 that, but which that's generally our audience, but I don't think the 234 00:11:45,045 --> 00:11:47,495 average consumer gets that at all, but. 235 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,315 I look at things like this, especially something new like 236 00:11:50,315 --> 00:11:51,515 this, I mean, it's new to me. 237 00:11:51,515 --> 00:11:52,385 I know it's been around. 238 00:11:52,385 --> 00:11:53,275 How long has it been around. 239 00:11:54,055 --> 00:11:54,775 Barry Lunt: 2008 240 00:11:55,835 --> 00:11:56,215 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 241 00:11:56,330 --> 00:11:58,460 So a a while, right? 242 00:11:58,525 --> 00:11:58,845 Barry Lunt: a while. 243 00:11:59,150 --> 00:12:02,960 W. Curtis Preston: I can't believe that I it's literally half of my 244 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,310 backup career it's been out and I hadn't heard of it until Daniel. 245 00:12:08,180 --> 00:12:14,060 Um, But again, I, I spent most of my time in tape and then went into disk and in 246 00:12:14,060 --> 00:12:19,550 the world where I live in the idea of a device, that can only hold, um, you 247 00:12:19,550 --> 00:12:23,780 know, a certain number of gigabytes, uh, you know, not very exciting. 248 00:12:24,020 --> 00:12:29,060 The other problem, historically, with, with the areas where I typically 249 00:12:29,060 --> 00:12:33,320 did backup in recovery, what, well, there's a couple, one, one 250 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:34,940 of the big one was, is throughput. 251 00:12:35,525 --> 00:12:35,660 right. 252 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,430 And optical has never been very sexy when it comes to throughput. 253 00:12:40,805 --> 00:12:42,305 Barry Lunt: No, it has not. 254 00:12:42,770 --> 00:12:43,130 W. Curtis Preston: yeah. 255 00:12:43,130 --> 00:12:47,240 Great on long term archiving, but, but not so much in, uh, throughput. 256 00:12:48,830 --> 00:12:51,620 Prasanna Malaiyandi: What made you want to create M-Disc Barry. 257 00:12:51,620 --> 00:12:54,470 Like what was sort of the reason behind it? 258 00:12:55,870 --> 00:12:56,810 Barry Lunt: I love telling this story. 259 00:12:56,810 --> 00:13:03,440 Um, 2005, I was thinking about my pictures and of course we, uh, If you 260 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,520 back up about 30 years, people thought pictures were very, very valuable because 261 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,050 you'd, you'd pay for the roll of film. 262 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,210 You'd print 'em off and you'd put 'em in a photo book. 263 00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:13,910 And people always said, if my house is on fire, the first thing I'm 264 00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:15,050 gonna do is get my children out. 265 00:13:15,260 --> 00:13:18,500 And then number two, my, my photo albums, because they were very valuable. 266 00:13:18,500 --> 00:13:21,385 Well, that's how I felt about digital pictures when I first started 267 00:13:21,385 --> 00:13:23,095 getting 'em and that was about 2005. 268 00:13:23,605 --> 00:13:26,545 And so I had a hard drive full of them, and I knew the hard drives 269 00:13:26,545 --> 00:13:28,165 are prone to catastrophic failure. 270 00:13:28,165 --> 00:13:30,235 And so I thought, okay, what should I back it up onto? 271 00:13:30,625 --> 00:13:31,915 I thought about optical discs. 272 00:13:31,915 --> 00:13:33,535 I knew that they didn't last a long time. 273 00:13:33,805 --> 00:13:34,945 I thought about flash drives. 274 00:13:34,945 --> 00:13:35,995 I knew they weren't permanent. 275 00:13:36,355 --> 00:13:37,045 And I thought about. 276 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:41,250 Uh, magnetic tape and I didn't have really a good option there because getting into 277 00:13:41,250 --> 00:13:45,090 it, it's a bit on the expensive side and I knew that there was nothing permanent. 278 00:13:45,090 --> 00:13:49,530 I thought, gee, if I care about storing my pictures for a long time, I'm sure I'm 279 00:13:49,530 --> 00:13:51,360 not the only person in the world who does. 280 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,290 Wouldn't it be nice if we had a permanent digital data storage medium. 281 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,170 So that's when I remembered, well, you know, I've seen petroglyphs. 282 00:13:59,195 --> 00:14:03,545 I had taken my son and a bunch of other 16, 17 year old Scouts down to a place 283 00:14:03,545 --> 00:14:08,975 called nine mile path, about an hour and a half from where I live to do some camping. 284 00:14:09,035 --> 00:14:12,905 And while there we looked at some petroglyphs made by the Fremont Indians. 285 00:14:13,355 --> 00:14:16,925 Hundreds, perhaps thousands of years ago, still visible today. 286 00:14:17,405 --> 00:14:20,135 And I realized that they were made by a process different than what 287 00:14:20,135 --> 00:14:22,235 I understood that is their etched. 288 00:14:22,265 --> 00:14:25,595 The, the outside layer of the rock is dark from the exposure to the 289 00:14:25,835 --> 00:14:27,665 weather for centuries and millennia. 290 00:14:28,235 --> 00:14:31,085 And then they just took, uh, some sharp object and etched away that 291 00:14:31,090 --> 00:14:32,675 top layer and exposed a light layer. 292 00:14:33,070 --> 00:14:34,270 That's optical contrast. 293 00:14:34,270 --> 00:14:36,060 And I thought, well, that's how optical discs are made. 294 00:14:36,060 --> 00:14:37,870 You have light spots and dark spots. 295 00:14:37,870 --> 00:14:41,590 And then I thought, well, we could use an optical disc and put a rocklike 296 00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:46,150 media on it, dark and then ablate it with the laser and have dark spots and 297 00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:47,980 light spots and record data permanently. 298 00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:49,480 And so I thought, wow, that's cool. 299 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,140 So that's when I started visiting with my chemistry friend, Matt Linford, 300 00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:56,680 and he, and I said, uh, yeah, we think this is worth researching. 301 00:14:56,685 --> 00:14:57,280 Let's do it. 302 00:14:57,670 --> 00:15:00,190 And then a couple of years later, we found a couple of the guys that 303 00:15:00,190 --> 00:15:01,570 were interested starting a company. 304 00:15:02,125 --> 00:15:04,405 Uh, Henry O'Connell and Doug Hanson. 305 00:15:04,405 --> 00:15:05,925 And that's when we started Milleniata. 306 00:15:06,325 --> 00:15:10,755 So that, that was about 2005, 2006 that we started the enterprise. 307 00:15:12,305 --> 00:15:14,765 W. Curtis Preston: I'm coming into this, like from the back end, like 308 00:15:14,765 --> 00:15:20,055 by the time I find about M-Disc, the M in M-Disc isn't around anymore. 309 00:15:20,055 --> 00:15:25,305 So I was like, so I was confused and you know, how is this, you 310 00:15:25,305 --> 00:15:28,245 know, I mean, I've since learned the answers to that question. 311 00:15:28,455 --> 00:15:32,685 So, so the company, as I understand it, the company itself didn't 312 00:15:32,685 --> 00:15:36,945 succeed, but the, but the medium did, is that, is that a fair summary? 313 00:15:37,445 --> 00:15:38,555 Barry Lunt: That is yes. 314 00:15:38,555 --> 00:15:41,945 In the process of, uh, the many different things that the company 315 00:15:41,945 --> 00:15:43,535 tried in order to stay afloat. 316 00:15:43,925 --> 00:15:48,185 They licensed the production of the media to Verbatim, and Verbatim has 317 00:15:48,190 --> 00:15:49,815 continued to produce the M-Disc. 318 00:15:49,835 --> 00:15:54,370 And so as far as I'm aware, they're the only company that produces it today under 319 00:15:54,370 --> 00:15:56,870 licensed from the company millennia. 320 00:15:57,965 --> 00:15:58,475 W. Curtis Preston: Gotcha. 321 00:15:58,835 --> 00:16:00,965 How is that different than. 322 00:16:01,790 --> 00:16:08,270 Um, cuz that, cuz my understanding is that the original company isn't around anymore. 323 00:16:08,270 --> 00:16:09,825 Is that not a correct understanding. 324 00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:11,040 Barry Lunt: that is correct. 325 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,510 The company's not around anymore. 326 00:16:12,690 --> 00:16:16,170 Uh, we went into receivership a few years ago and so we don't have 327 00:16:16,170 --> 00:16:19,560 any proceeds, but, but at the time we were making the discs ourselves 328 00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:21,540 and Verbatim was also making them 329 00:16:22,635 --> 00:16:23,085 W. Curtis Preston: okay. 330 00:16:23,085 --> 00:16:23,505 Gotcha. 331 00:16:23,535 --> 00:16:24,015 Okay. 332 00:16:24,210 --> 00:16:27,330 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So basically they have the IP to make the technology right. 333 00:16:28,260 --> 00:16:29,700 Barry Lunt: because we licensed it to them. 334 00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:29,940 Right. 335 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,170 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So we talk about the media, right? 336 00:16:32,170 --> 00:16:32,680 Barry. 337 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,110 That's like only half the equation. 338 00:16:35,110 --> 00:16:35,290 Right? 339 00:16:35,290 --> 00:16:37,510 How do you get things onto that media? 340 00:16:37,780 --> 00:16:38,050 Right. 341 00:16:38,050 --> 00:16:40,000 I guess is like a critical aspect. 342 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,690 And I know we were talking or joking earlier about Tesla comparing 343 00:16:43,690 --> 00:16:45,280 it to LTO tape drive, right. 344 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,810 And the cost being so high upfront, what does M-Disc require in order to 345 00:16:49,810 --> 00:16:51,190 actually be able to use the media? 346 00:16:53,715 --> 00:16:54,045 Barry Lunt: Wow. 347 00:16:54,585 --> 00:16:54,645 Huh? 348 00:16:54,675 --> 00:16:57,615 That's a pretty deep question, but I, I suppose our technical audience 349 00:16:57,615 --> 00:16:58,785 is ready for something like that. 350 00:16:59,405 --> 00:17:03,300 Uh, in order to record a one and a zero on the disc. 351 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,230 You have to turn on the laser at a certain intensity, leave it on for a 352 00:17:07,230 --> 00:17:09,420 certain amount of time and then finish. 353 00:17:09,540 --> 00:17:12,150 And it's not a question of just turning it on and off. 354 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,270 You have to do a, a start and then an end. 355 00:17:15,715 --> 00:17:16,765 What we call a castle. 356 00:17:17,005 --> 00:17:19,975 So you have to get the, have to get the, uh, media to ablate. 357 00:17:20,125 --> 00:17:21,635 The recording layer has to be ablated. 358 00:17:21,635 --> 00:17:24,895 You have to start it and then you have to continue ablating it, but then 359 00:17:24,895 --> 00:17:28,795 you have to stop it so that you get a mark that is consistent in length. 360 00:17:28,945 --> 00:17:30,445 Let's say they want three ones. 361 00:17:30,805 --> 00:17:33,145 Well, if my four ones needs to be exactly. 362 00:17:33,515 --> 00:17:35,615 33% longer than my three ones. 363 00:17:35,615 --> 00:17:36,395 Exactly. 364 00:17:36,905 --> 00:17:40,505 The same is true for my two ones needs to be 33% smaller. 365 00:17:40,925 --> 00:17:45,125 And to get those marks to be there consistently is extremely difficult. 366 00:17:45,125 --> 00:17:46,025 And then we don't do it. 367 00:17:46,025 --> 00:17:49,805 Well, we get what we call jitter, which is variation in the time domain, 368 00:17:50,345 --> 00:17:52,355 which means we get errors bit errors. 369 00:17:52,355 --> 00:17:53,765 It increases our bit error rate. 370 00:17:54,265 --> 00:17:55,615 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Which is the last thing really you want 371 00:17:55,615 --> 00:17:56,725 for like a disc you're gonna 372 00:17:56,725 --> 00:17:57,985 keep for a thousand years, right? 373 00:17:58,615 --> 00:18:01,285 Barry Lunt: Clearly you want extremely low bit errors. 374 00:18:01,705 --> 00:18:04,955 So we just had to work with developing what we call a right strategy. 375 00:18:05,385 --> 00:18:07,075 Well, the write strategy, it turns out. 376 00:18:07,555 --> 00:18:10,285 For the DVD had to be unique. 377 00:18:10,375 --> 00:18:14,165 And so we had to develop it and then we had to, uh, include that write 378 00:18:14,185 --> 00:18:19,045 strategy in the drives that, that recorded and read back the DVD. 379 00:18:19,735 --> 00:18:23,995 Well, when we developed the Blu-Ray version of the M-Disc, it turns out 380 00:18:23,995 --> 00:18:27,835 that one of the write strategies for one of the various types of media for the 381 00:18:28,315 --> 00:18:30,865 Blu-Ray version already worked for ours. 382 00:18:30,865 --> 00:18:33,025 So we didn't have to have a different kind of drive. 383 00:18:33,875 --> 00:18:37,415 So originally you had to have special drive for the DVD, but for 384 00:18:37,415 --> 00:18:38,795 the Blu-Ray you didn't have to. 385 00:18:38,795 --> 00:18:43,415 And so now you can record on any M-Disc with the right DVD 386 00:18:43,415 --> 00:18:47,615 drive, but you can record on any Blu-Ray M-Disc with any drive. 387 00:18:47,975 --> 00:18:50,885 And then of course the good news is once they're recorded, you can 388 00:18:50,885 --> 00:18:55,095 read them on any DVD player or any Blu-Ray player in the world. 389 00:18:55,625 --> 00:18:55,845 Prasanna Malaiyandi: wow. 390 00:18:55,845 --> 00:18:58,285 So that, because unlike LTO tape drives, right. 391 00:18:58,285 --> 00:19:00,735 Where you have to, I know Curtis you've talked about, yes, you need a certain 392 00:19:00,735 --> 00:19:04,145 type and make sure it's compatible and all the rest it looks like with M-Discs. 393 00:19:04,335 --> 00:19:08,025 It's pretty much anything as long as it can read a Blu-Ray should be 394 00:19:08,025 --> 00:19:10,545 able to at least read that disc, 395 00:19:11,505 --> 00:19:18,655 W. Curtis Preston: Typically not even all writeable DVD and Blu-Ray media 396 00:19:18,655 --> 00:19:21,535 were always readable in all drives. 397 00:19:22,105 --> 00:19:25,540 Um, So, but, but you're saying this one is, 398 00:19:26,155 --> 00:19:26,785 Barry Lunt: This one is 399 00:19:26,890 --> 00:19:29,320 W. Curtis Preston: information on that is little outta date, but, 400 00:19:29,740 --> 00:19:32,500 um, you're saying no problem here. 401 00:19:33,085 --> 00:19:33,715 Barry Lunt: no problem. 402 00:19:33,715 --> 00:19:37,015 There are plenty of read strategies and the read strategies all work 403 00:19:37,015 --> 00:19:38,645 with the M-Disc, thankfully. 404 00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:39,130 W. Curtis Preston: Okay. 405 00:19:39,250 --> 00:19:39,730 Okay. 406 00:19:40,510 --> 00:19:46,660 So, um, and, and this does bring up a related question though. 407 00:19:47,050 --> 00:19:49,360 Cuz when I was, when I was researching this, I. 408 00:19:50,755 --> 00:19:52,495 Again, you know, go big or go home. 409 00:19:52,495 --> 00:19:54,385 I was looking at the hundred gigabyte discs. 410 00:19:54,385 --> 00:19:54,715 Right. 411 00:19:55,195 --> 00:20:02,035 And, um, I was like, uh, just interesting, based on the application, I might use it. 412 00:20:02,035 --> 00:20:03,885 I might not need the hundred gigabyte disc. 413 00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:04,045 Right. 414 00:20:04,045 --> 00:20:08,295 Because it is a write once, by the way, I can keep appending. 415 00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:08,605 Right. 416 00:20:08,685 --> 00:20:11,145 Barry Lunt: You, you can keep appending until the disc is full. 417 00:20:11,145 --> 00:20:12,075 You can keep append. 418 00:20:12,460 --> 00:20:12,850 W. Curtis Preston: Okay. 419 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:22,705 So, I found an incredibly inconsistent, um, Verbiage on various 420 00:20:22,925 --> 00:20:28,975 Blu-Ray drives as to whether or not they supported the larger medium. 421 00:20:29,725 --> 00:20:35,235 Do, do you think, like would all Blu-Ray drives support the larger medium, 422 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,615 or does that, do I have to find a specific one that would support that? 423 00:20:40,410 --> 00:20:42,870 Barry Lunt: You would have to have a specific one that supports that. 424 00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:48,150 My understanding is that the Blu-Ray standard is 25 gigabytes per layer. 425 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,410 You can get two layers per side of the disc, and you can get a two sided disc, 426 00:20:52,410 --> 00:20:54,150 which gives you four layers total. 427 00:20:54,540 --> 00:20:57,690 But that means you have to have a drive that supports the two layers. 428 00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:59,970 And then of course you have to turn the media over in order 429 00:20:59,970 --> 00:21:01,050 to access the other side. 430 00:21:01,055 --> 00:21:05,230 I, I don't believe there's a Blu-Ray derived that has, uh, right and write 431 00:21:05,250 --> 00:21:06,840 heads on both sides of the disc. 432 00:21:07,690 --> 00:21:10,275 W. Curtis Preston: So a hundred gigabyte disc is really. 433 00:21:10,875 --> 00:21:13,905 Two 50 gigabyte disc is what I'm is what I'm hearing. 434 00:21:14,025 --> 00:21:14,475 Okay. 435 00:21:15,215 --> 00:21:16,775 Barry Lunt: Yeah, basically layers 436 00:21:16,825 --> 00:21:19,465 W. Curtis Preston: So, so I guess it makes it a little less cool. 437 00:21:19,465 --> 00:21:21,110 I thought it was a hundred gigabyte disc. 438 00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:23,720 What it really is, is a two-sided 50 gigabyte disc, 439 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:24,660 Barry Lunt: Yes. 440 00:21:25,340 --> 00:21:25,700 Yes. 441 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:25,940 W. Curtis Preston: or 442 00:21:25,985 --> 00:21:27,155 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And my guess is that's no different 443 00:21:27,155 --> 00:21:28,295 than like Blu-Rays itself, 444 00:21:28,445 --> 00:21:30,185 W. Curtis Preston: It probably isn't probably isn't. 445 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:31,010 Barry Lunt: Not at all. 446 00:21:31,010 --> 00:21:32,090 That's the Blu-Ray standard. 447 00:21:32,645 --> 00:21:34,775 W. Curtis Preston: yeah, it wasn't immediately obvious to me. 448 00:21:35,465 --> 00:21:38,945 Um, I'm I'm sure one or two of the listeners are like rolling their eyes 449 00:21:38,945 --> 00:21:40,715 right now, like Curtis, you're so stupid. 450 00:21:40,715 --> 00:21:41,015 You should 451 00:21:41,215 --> 00:21:42,095 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I remember I was having. 452 00:21:42,935 --> 00:21:45,995 Twitter chat message thread with Daniel about this. 453 00:21:45,995 --> 00:21:48,695 And he was saying, because he lives in Israel, right. 454 00:21:48,695 --> 00:21:53,285 That getting the higher density disc is actually a lot more expensive. 455 00:21:53,290 --> 00:22:00,005 And so he is like, yeah, I basically ended up, I think goes what, 5 25 and a hundred, 456 00:22:00,005 --> 00:22:03,485 I think terms of the size of those. 457 00:22:03,485 --> 00:22:06,185 He's like, yeah, I got like the middle one, because that was just the cheapest 458 00:22:06,190 --> 00:22:09,065 per gigabyte cost for right now. 459 00:22:09,715 --> 00:22:13,115 W. Curtis Preston: what I, what I found for me acquiring it via, you 460 00:22:13,115 --> 00:22:19,565 know, my favorite South american themed, uh, internet retailer. 461 00:22:19,925 --> 00:22:24,785 Um, is that they were, it was generally about the same, like 462 00:22:24,785 --> 00:22:26,555 in terms of dollars per gigabyte. 463 00:22:26,855 --> 00:22:31,085 So it was just buy what you thought worked for you, and obviously depending 464 00:22:31,090 --> 00:22:32,465 on which supplier you go with. 465 00:22:32,465 --> 00:22:32,765 Right. 466 00:22:33,395 --> 00:22:38,705 But, um, the, uh, but I was frustrated on the whole support 467 00:22:38,705 --> 00:22:40,665 for the, for the hundred gigabyte. 468 00:22:41,030 --> 00:22:41,510 Thing. 469 00:22:42,050 --> 00:22:46,190 Um, so really what it is, what you're saying, Barry is it's support for the 470 00:22:46,190 --> 00:22:52,910 50 gigabyte, um, is the thing that makes it, um, because the, like you 471 00:22:52,910 --> 00:22:55,190 said, the, the BluRay standard is 25, 472 00:22:55,905 --> 00:22:56,355 Barry Lunt: That's right. 473 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:57,200 W. Curtis Preston: right? 474 00:22:57,230 --> 00:22:57,290 Okay. 475 00:22:59,180 --> 00:22:59,660 Gotcha. 476 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:05,210 Um, so I, I, my, my, my research will continue, you know, it's interesting, 477 00:23:05,540 --> 00:23:10,130 you know, I heard your story, the origin story, if you will, of, of, of M-disc, 478 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:18,825 I, you know, I know what happens when you assume, but I assumed that, you know, 479 00:23:18,855 --> 00:23:23,115 you're, you know, I'm guessing you're LDS, you're, you know, you work for BYU. 480 00:23:23,625 --> 00:23:28,605 I figured there was an LDS angle to this, um, the, that, because 481 00:23:28,605 --> 00:23:31,575 I know that, um, the church. 482 00:23:32,190 --> 00:23:37,260 Uh, is, is big on preservation and all of that sort of stuff. 483 00:23:37,260 --> 00:23:41,370 So I, I, I concocted in my head a completely different origin story. 484 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,710 Um, does it, does it have, is there any connection to your university? 485 00:23:47,970 --> 00:23:51,810 Barry Lunt: Not really the, there there's an abtuse connection in 486 00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:55,680 that we felt that the church might be one of our early customers. 487 00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:59,060 Uh, as you mentioned, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints 488 00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:03,170 really does care a great deal about storing things permanently with their, 489 00:24:03,350 --> 00:24:07,190 their granite vaults in the little Cottonwood canyon, up in salt lake 490 00:24:07,190 --> 00:24:09,420 and so forth, but they don't use. 491 00:24:10,085 --> 00:24:11,375 Unproven technology. 492 00:24:11,375 --> 00:24:15,335 They only use something that has been proven and been around for a long time. 493 00:24:15,815 --> 00:24:20,045 And the course, uh, the M-disc, of course was not proven at the time. 494 00:24:20,435 --> 00:24:23,375 We don't know if it's been adopted, at least to our knowledge. 495 00:24:23,380 --> 00:24:25,175 It has not been adopted by the church. 496 00:24:25,775 --> 00:24:28,295 Uh, but no, that it wasn't initiated by the church. 497 00:24:28,355 --> 00:24:30,395 We just knew that they might be an early customer. 498 00:24:31,265 --> 00:24:32,135 W. Curtis Preston: It was kind of hopes. 499 00:24:32,705 --> 00:24:32,975 Barry Lunt: We were 500 00:24:33,020 --> 00:24:34,460 W. Curtis Preston: Uh, yeah. 501 00:24:34,550 --> 00:24:35,000 Yeah. 502 00:24:35,060 --> 00:24:40,520 Um, the, yeah, so that's an interesting aspect by the way, cuz 503 00:24:40,525 --> 00:24:45,560 you know, the conversations that I've had on Reddit with what I'll call 504 00:24:45,565 --> 00:24:51,500 randos, um, to borrow a name from, uh, or, or word from the younger 505 00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:53,840 generation, random people on Reddit. 506 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:59,750 Um, it's the, there are those that. 507 00:25:00,725 --> 00:25:04,895 When they hear about in this case, M-disc being rated for a thousand 508 00:25:04,895 --> 00:25:08,255 years, when they hear about tape being rated for 30 years, when they hear 509 00:25:08,255 --> 00:25:10,785 about Blu-Ray being rated for whatever. 510 00:25:12,205 --> 00:25:17,285 all understand that that that's via, you know, advanced aging technology, 511 00:25:17,285 --> 00:25:20,825 obviously M-Disc wasn't invented a thousand years ago and it hasn't 512 00:25:20,825 --> 00:25:22,415 been tested for a thousand years. 513 00:25:22,885 --> 00:25:26,905 Since, since most people haven't participated in advanced aging 514 00:25:26,905 --> 00:25:32,880 techniques, um, you know, maybe help us understand that part of it a little bit. 515 00:25:33,230 --> 00:25:34,885 Barry Lunt: Yeah, I, I love to talk about that. 516 00:25:35,365 --> 00:25:39,085 My chemistry friend, Matt Linford, uh, is one that's even stronger in this 517 00:25:39,085 --> 00:25:42,865 area, but, uh, he has helped me make sure I understand relatively well. 518 00:25:43,135 --> 00:25:46,225 So let's back up, uh, a few decades to where paint. 519 00:25:46,930 --> 00:25:51,460 Is being, uh, used nationwide primarily here in this country and 520 00:25:51,460 --> 00:25:54,070 various companies are saying, well, our paint is better than your paint. 521 00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:55,750 Well, how do you know that it's better? 522 00:25:56,110 --> 00:25:56,800 Well, okay. 523 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,000 Let's, let's take a surface. 524 00:25:58,705 --> 00:26:02,365 Let's paint it with our paint and your paint and then let's abuse it. 525 00:26:02,365 --> 00:26:03,685 Well, how is paint abused? 526 00:26:03,685 --> 00:26:05,845 What causes paint to degrade? 527 00:26:05,845 --> 00:26:09,445 Well, we know that sunshine and rain and temperature variation, all of 528 00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:11,515 those are pretty tough on paint. 529 00:26:11,755 --> 00:26:14,905 So let's put it in a chamber where we put bright lights on it. 530 00:26:14,910 --> 00:26:16,995 We raise temperature and lower the temperature and. 531 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,510 Put rain on it and then let's test it. 532 00:26:19,930 --> 00:26:21,160 Well, that's fun. 533 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,070 And that's cool, but how do we tie a science to it? 534 00:26:24,580 --> 00:26:28,720 Well, the really good thing is this guy named arinias and another guy named iring. 535 00:26:29,140 --> 00:26:33,640 Both came up with equations that tell us exactly what the degree of degradation 536 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,470 is as a function of the materials being used and how that relates to real time. 537 00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:43,960 So let's say that I degrade something in a, in 20 hours of this abusive testing. 538 00:26:44,410 --> 00:26:46,720 What does 20 hours of abusive testing mean? 539 00:26:46,990 --> 00:26:51,400 So, all we have to do really is identify what kinds of factors cause the 540 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,830 recording layer of the M disc to degrade. 541 00:26:54,220 --> 00:26:56,890 We already knew enough about polycarbonate and we know what 542 00:26:56,890 --> 00:26:58,570 causes polycarbonate to degrade. 543 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,370 So that means that if we put ultraviolet light on the, and, and regular light 544 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,000 on the, uh, disc and the recording layer, if we put it in temperature, 545 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,980 high temperature and high humidity, we know exactly how much degradation will 546 00:27:11,980 --> 00:27:14,250 cause thousand years of degradation. 547 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:16,465 That's accelerated aging. 548 00:27:16,465 --> 00:27:19,195 It's a science that was developed by the paint industry. 549 00:27:19,675 --> 00:27:21,805 And now we it's been extended of course, to all sorts of 550 00:27:21,805 --> 00:27:23,845 industries, including optical discs. 551 00:27:25,695 --> 00:27:25,975 W. Curtis Preston: Interesting. 552 00:27:26,475 --> 00:27:31,585 So you're basically just sort of borrowing it, it, by the way, I had no idea that 553 00:27:31,585 --> 00:27:33,115 it started with the paint industry. 554 00:27:34,660 --> 00:27:34,870 Had 555 00:27:34,915 --> 00:27:35,395 Barry Lunt: That's fine. 556 00:27:35,635 --> 00:27:38,605 So, so that's what the Naval weapons research center did 557 00:27:38,605 --> 00:27:40,015 down in China Lake, california. 558 00:27:40,225 --> 00:27:43,405 They had this chamber and the chamber had a lot of bright lights and it 559 00:27:43,405 --> 00:27:45,685 had temperature control and humidity. 560 00:27:45,985 --> 00:27:49,405 So they put all the discs in there, including ours, including the very best 561 00:27:49,405 --> 00:27:53,965 optical discs and just tortured them under very carefully controlled conditions. 562 00:27:53,965 --> 00:27:55,645 And then tested them, put 'em on a reader. 563 00:27:55,885 --> 00:27:58,195 See what the error rate, what happened to the error rate. 564 00:27:58,645 --> 00:28:00,895 And of course you watch those error rates climb and climb and climb 565 00:28:01,165 --> 00:28:04,615 on all the other discs until they completely failed when no, they were 566 00:28:04,615 --> 00:28:08,125 no longer correctable where our disc was just going, Hey, this is nice. 567 00:28:08,125 --> 00:28:09,385 This is like a walk on the beach, 568 00:28:10,780 --> 00:28:11,320 W. Curtis Preston: Interesting. 569 00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:13,090 I walk on a very hot beach, but yeah, 570 00:28:13,225 --> 00:28:17,635 Barry Lunt: a very hot, very intensely lit beach, but nevertheless, not a problem. 571 00:28:17,890 --> 00:28:20,890 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So after they did all this testing, do you know if 572 00:28:20,890 --> 00:28:25,030 there are other government agencies or other groups who are using 573 00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:28,150 M-Disc for their archival media? 574 00:28:29,620 --> 00:28:30,220 Barry Lunt: At one time. 575 00:28:30,225 --> 00:28:33,250 I know the library of Congress was, uh, looking at it. 576 00:28:33,250 --> 00:28:37,990 And I also know that all senators and all congressmen were given an M disc drive 577 00:28:37,990 --> 00:28:39,910 so that they could record things on them. 578 00:28:41,425 --> 00:28:42,725 W. Curtis Preston: I'll give the good and the bad, right? 579 00:28:42,725 --> 00:28:45,455 So the good is this all sounds great. 580 00:28:45,665 --> 00:28:46,085 Right? 581 00:28:46,535 --> 00:28:48,245 And, and I'll give the bad, and then I'm gonna go back 582 00:28:48,245 --> 00:28:50,435 to the good, the bad is that. 583 00:28:51,545 --> 00:28:54,335 This combination of things that we said earlier of like the 584 00:28:54,335 --> 00:28:55,925 business aspect of it, right? 585 00:28:55,925 --> 00:28:59,675 Like what, what would happen tomorrow if Verbatim's like, you know what? 586 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,305 We've been making this for, you know, X number of years now, and there's 587 00:29:03,305 --> 00:29:05,045 only three guys that are buying it. 588 00:29:05,045 --> 00:29:09,665 It's some guy named Daniel out in Israel, keeps buying a bunch of copies and then 589 00:29:09,670 --> 00:29:11,855 nobody, nobody else is buying this thing. 590 00:29:12,275 --> 00:29:13,985 Uh, we're just gonna stop making it. 591 00:29:14,195 --> 00:29:18,185 So that, that, that's the worry I do understand the good is that. 592 00:29:18,650 --> 00:29:22,700 That doesn't mean that because of, because of, you know, how it was 593 00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:28,520 designed, that doesn't mean that what you've done is in any way degraded. 594 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:28,760 Right? 595 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,070 You can still, you will continue to be able to read 596 00:29:31,075 --> 00:29:32,990 an M-Disc that you've written. 597 00:29:33,170 --> 00:29:36,830 I I'd say that the only worry would be that you would get enthused 598 00:29:36,830 --> 00:29:41,660 about something that then might be suddenly, um, you know, snatched away. 599 00:29:42,110 --> 00:29:42,620 But 600 00:29:42,940 --> 00:29:43,690 Prasanna Malaiyandi: stockpile. 601 00:29:43,940 --> 00:29:44,240 W. Curtis Preston: yeah. 602 00:29:44,850 --> 00:29:45,630 but, but. 603 00:29:46,535 --> 00:29:53,045 If there are large governmental or, or, you know, commercial concerns that are 604 00:29:53,105 --> 00:29:57,785 in any way using M-Disc, I would think that that would, and none of that was 605 00:29:57,785 --> 00:29:59,345 really a question, Barry, I don't know. 606 00:29:59,345 --> 00:30:00,185 I don't know how you want. 607 00:30:00,815 --> 00:30:02,165 how you want to comment on that. 608 00:30:02,705 --> 00:30:05,705 Barry Lunt: We would love to have had large customers using 609 00:30:05,705 --> 00:30:07,265 large quantities of discs. 610 00:30:07,265 --> 00:30:11,825 And I know at one time, uh, one company was developing an optical 611 00:30:11,825 --> 00:30:16,205 disc, uh, cabinet that would store thousands of optical discs. 612 00:30:16,535 --> 00:30:19,715 And they would be, uh, what we call cold storage. 613 00:30:19,715 --> 00:30:23,135 So, you know, you store it on them and then just keep it there for a long time. 614 00:30:23,495 --> 00:30:26,135 So, uh, but that apparently didn't catch on. 615 00:30:26,135 --> 00:30:28,315 And so we've never found a. 616 00:30:29,150 --> 00:30:32,350 Single entity that purchased large quantities of the M-Disc. 617 00:30:32,810 --> 00:30:35,930 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I was thinking just about like Daniel's use case, right? 618 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:41,000 He had a very specific use case where he's like, Hey, I'm creating all these videos. 619 00:30:41,060 --> 00:30:43,070 I need to store them somewhere. 620 00:30:43,460 --> 00:30:47,630 I can't upload it to the cloud because it, my internet sucks and it's too expensive. 621 00:30:49,070 --> 00:30:51,950 And M-Disc is one of those things that he sort of latched 622 00:30:51,950 --> 00:30:53,630 onto and sort of educated us on. 623 00:30:54,050 --> 00:30:57,080 I'm just wondering, are there other people who just don't know 624 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,360 it exists going back to the initial thing we were talking about, right. 625 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,310 Those three groups, right? 626 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,170 It just seems, there are a lot of people who don't know it exists and 627 00:31:06,175 --> 00:31:10,070 the fact that it's not really that expensive to start using it either. 628 00:31:11,615 --> 00:31:13,355 Barry Lunt: Yeah, that's a great question too. 629 00:31:13,385 --> 00:31:17,795 And I attended a number of conferences that were related to archival. 630 00:31:18,515 --> 00:31:19,445 So the archival. 631 00:31:20,885 --> 00:31:22,625 For like eight it's eight years. 632 00:31:22,625 --> 00:31:26,225 I believe I presented papers at the archival conferences, two different ones. 633 00:31:26,885 --> 00:31:31,475 And you meet people there who care a great deal about storing things for a long time. 634 00:31:31,895 --> 00:31:34,535 And all of them are concerned about the fact that digital 635 00:31:34,535 --> 00:31:36,435 data is not something that. 636 00:31:36,985 --> 00:31:38,555 They can store it permanently. 637 00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:40,670 They all have what they call cycles. 638 00:31:41,030 --> 00:31:43,340 So they'll take it and copy it onto something new. 639 00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:48,680 And so they're always refreshing it, putting on a new media type, just because 640 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,110 that's the only way to keep it persistent. 641 00:31:51,620 --> 00:31:53,750 And a number of the times that I went there. 642 00:31:54,395 --> 00:31:57,315 They would say, well, there's one exception and that's the M-Disc, 643 00:31:57,335 --> 00:31:58,565 but we don't know much about it. 644 00:31:58,805 --> 00:32:01,775 And their studies they're being millennials. 645 00:32:01,775 --> 00:32:05,045 And of course we have a vested interest in bragging about ourselves. 646 00:32:05,050 --> 00:32:07,895 And so you can't, you can't, you have to doubt our validity. 647 00:32:08,225 --> 00:32:09,095 That's the perspective. 648 00:32:09,095 --> 00:32:12,695 Anyway, uh, they say, well, they themselves say that it lasts a 649 00:32:12,695 --> 00:32:15,875 thousand years plus, and they do cite this one study by an 650 00:32:15,875 --> 00:32:19,925 independent agency, the naval weapons research center, uh, but who knows. 651 00:32:20,105 --> 00:32:22,745 And so the most of the response that I got. 652 00:32:23,310 --> 00:32:25,390 Well, we don't know enough about the M-Disc. 653 00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:27,180 We haven't seen a proven track record. 654 00:32:27,540 --> 00:32:31,260 And in the meantime, we know we have processes, allow us to preserve 655 00:32:31,260 --> 00:32:33,000 our data for the next five years. 656 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:33,720 And so we're okay. 657 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:35,570 W. Curtis Preston: Mmm. 658 00:32:37,025 --> 00:32:38,855 Prasanna Malaiyandi: But as your data keeps growing, though, 659 00:32:38,855 --> 00:32:42,395 it's like at some point copying forward that data, every time. 660 00:32:42,905 --> 00:32:46,205 You're gonna spend all your time with your tape drive, just moving 661 00:32:46,205 --> 00:32:49,805 data from one to another, rather than actually backing up anything new. 662 00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:51,990 Barry Lunt: Then you're exactly right. 663 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:53,630 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 664 00:32:53,630 --> 00:33:00,150 I mean, I, I think, I think you might be being a little hard on the tape 665 00:33:00,150 --> 00:33:02,300 and optical folks that aren't M-Disc. 666 00:33:03,170 --> 00:33:08,700 When I hear you talking about like optical dying after 10 years, you 667 00:33:08,705 --> 00:33:12,600 know, you talk about, you say your, the M-Disc is good for a thousand years. 668 00:33:12,750 --> 00:33:15,150 Well, they say that optical is good for a whole lot longer 669 00:33:15,150 --> 00:33:16,110 than you're talking about. 670 00:33:17,130 --> 00:33:20,210 And, and LTO tape, for example, rated for 30 years. 671 00:33:20,570 --> 00:33:20,930 Right. 672 00:33:21,260 --> 00:33:23,960 Um, not, not dis right. 673 00:33:23,965 --> 00:33:31,400 Disk is a different problem and certainly not solid state, but, um, you know, 674 00:33:31,845 --> 00:33:33,405 Barry Lunt: I wanna say something about those numbers. 675 00:33:33,765 --> 00:33:37,485 When they rate life expectancy, they almost always are giving you the 676 00:33:37,665 --> 00:33:39,915 maximum, the best life expectancy. 677 00:33:40,245 --> 00:33:42,675 They're not giving you the mean, and they're not giving you the minimum. 678 00:33:43,335 --> 00:33:46,725 And so what you hear is them bragging about their media. 679 00:33:46,725 --> 00:33:50,445 Well, of course they would do that, but we're, we're saying that our shortest 680 00:33:50,535 --> 00:33:52,665 life expectancy is a thousand years. 681 00:33:53,175 --> 00:33:55,485 In other words, you won't have problems until a thousand years. 682 00:33:55,755 --> 00:34:02,280 Let me cite a study that I did back in 2012 published at the conference. 683 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,990 So these are, this is a published, uh, optical disk life expectancy a field 684 00:34:06,990 --> 00:34:12,030 report from the, uh, is ISM/ODS 2011. 685 00:34:12,030 --> 00:34:15,180 That's the international symposium of optical media and optical data storage. 686 00:34:15,690 --> 00:34:22,785 And what we did was we studied the total of 26,500 optical discs 687 00:34:22,785 --> 00:34:24,495 stored by two different libraries. 688 00:34:24,915 --> 00:34:28,365 And these were recorded professionally by these libraries and then stored in 689 00:34:28,425 --> 00:34:33,105 optical storage boxes in a temperature and humidity controlled environment. 690 00:34:33,105 --> 00:34:34,725 So these are non circulating discs. 691 00:34:34,725 --> 00:34:37,515 You can't check them out they're backup purposes only. 692 00:34:38,255 --> 00:34:41,955 And what we did is we checked and looked at what is the percent of 693 00:34:41,955 --> 00:34:47,400 files that can't be read on these discs brand new versus five years and 694 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:48,930 three to seven years out and so forth. 695 00:34:48,930 --> 00:34:52,680 We had some that were three years old and some that were up to 14 years old. 696 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:54,930 And here's the bottom line. 697 00:34:55,860 --> 00:34:59,880 2% of the files per year are starting to fail. 698 00:34:59,885 --> 00:35:02,580 So every year you lose 2% more of your files. 699 00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:07,770 So that's with the very best optical quality archival quality 700 00:35:08,610 --> 00:35:12,150 stored in pristine, absolute best controlled conditions. 701 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,360 We're losing 2% per year of our files. 702 00:35:16,625 --> 00:35:19,175 W. Curtis Preston: Just to make sure I understand this is not 703 00:35:19,175 --> 00:35:22,595 something that would be caught or fixed by error correction. 704 00:35:23,390 --> 00:35:26,490 Barry Lunt: No these files that were unreadable had so many 705 00:35:26,490 --> 00:35:27,840 errors that they couldn't be read. 706 00:35:29,715 --> 00:35:31,425 W. Curtis Preston: that, that is shocking. 707 00:35:31,525 --> 00:35:33,085 But I'd love to take a look at that study. 708 00:35:33,505 --> 00:35:37,345 Um, you know, maybe we could do another episode on cuz that's, that 709 00:35:37,345 --> 00:35:43,135 is certainly does not match what the optical and I can, I assume that you've 710 00:35:43,135 --> 00:35:45,695 done a similar study with M-Disc. 711 00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:49,360 Barry Lunt: Um, we've not had a library that has used 712 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,790 the M-Disc for, uh, 14 years. 713 00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:54,730 no, we've not done a similar study with the M. 714 00:35:55,495 --> 00:35:55,885 W. Curtis Preston: Okay. 715 00:35:56,515 --> 00:35:58,675 It would, it would be a very interesting 716 00:35:58,885 --> 00:35:59,215 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Do you, 717 00:35:59,375 --> 00:36:00,085 W. Curtis Preston: to, to do. 718 00:36:00,265 --> 00:36:03,805 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I know it's probably not a good sample size, but given that 719 00:36:03,895 --> 00:36:08,395 M-Disc has been around for a while now, have you actually gone back and looked at 720 00:36:08,395 --> 00:36:12,235 those very first M-Discs that were burned? 721 00:36:12,385 --> 00:36:14,455 If you will, to look at the. 722 00:36:15,225 --> 00:36:17,095 to see what the error rates look like. 723 00:36:17,735 --> 00:36:18,215 Barry Lunt: Wow. 724 00:36:18,275 --> 00:36:19,205 What a good question. 725 00:36:19,535 --> 00:36:20,945 Yeah, we would love to do that. 726 00:36:21,065 --> 00:36:24,665 I'd no longer have the funds to do that kind of research because the company 727 00:36:24,665 --> 00:36:28,475 was funding my research I don't have the company anymore, so no, I have, 728 00:36:28,655 --> 00:36:30,155 I've not done that, but I would love to. 729 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:32,380 W. Curtis Preston: Gotcha. 730 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,690 Um, yeah, it's interesting. 731 00:36:34,690 --> 00:36:40,690 I, I, the verbiage that you said that the conferences that they go to, 732 00:36:40,750 --> 00:36:44,320 that you went to, and, and they said, there's this one company, you know, 733 00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:48,310 millennia that, but we don't know much about that, but we know what we 734 00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:49,630 have and we know what we need to do. 735 00:36:49,630 --> 00:36:51,190 And we have a process built around that. 736 00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:51,610 Right. 737 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,855 Um, And cuz that matches a lot. 738 00:36:55,855 --> 00:37:01,355 So a, another guy that's been on the podcast, uh, the, uh, Jeff Rochlin. 739 00:37:01,585 --> 00:37:05,725 So we had him on here about how Hollywood archives data. 740 00:37:06,145 --> 00:37:13,495 And I happened to be in his, uh, he, at the time he was, um, head 741 00:37:13,495 --> 00:37:15,535 of it for Disney Feature Animation. 742 00:37:16,105 --> 00:37:24,715 And I was in the, um, Um, I was in his data center when they were archiving. 743 00:37:24,775 --> 00:37:30,845 Um, Dinosaur, I believe was the, the movie and they chose to archive 744 00:37:30,850 --> 00:37:36,125 onto DVD, but not Blu-Ray, which was available at the time, because 745 00:37:36,130 --> 00:37:38,285 it was a new unproven technology. 746 00:37:38,585 --> 00:37:38,915 Right. 747 00:37:39,485 --> 00:37:44,590 Um, And, uh, and by the way, that's a lot of DVDs 748 00:37:45,350 --> 00:37:45,710 Barry Lunt: oh yeah. 749 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,320 W. Curtis Preston: cause those are 4.7 gigabytes, right? 750 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,720 That is a lot of DVDs. 751 00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:56,630 He had this, he had this, like, it was a robotic DVD, uh, you know, machine 752 00:37:56,870 --> 00:38:02,480 that, uh, he could basically somebody's job was to put in all these DVDs and 753 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,910 then wait for the export to, to finish. 754 00:38:04,910 --> 00:38:07,070 And then they would take all those DVDs and put 'em out. 755 00:38:07,340 --> 00:38:09,110 And now what I'm hearing you say is. 756 00:38:09,570 --> 00:38:11,490 That was only like 15 years ago. 757 00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:15,090 And that, that stuff's, that, you know, probably degraded 758 00:38:15,270 --> 00:38:16,290 to the point that, you know 759 00:38:16,855 --> 00:38:17,815 Barry Lunt: 2% per year. 760 00:38:18,015 --> 00:38:18,235 Yep. 761 00:38:18,300 --> 00:38:19,440 W. Curtis Preston: 2% per year. 762 00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:22,590 Um, well, you know, to be honest, did we need to save a hundred 763 00:38:22,590 --> 00:38:23,970 percent of Dinosaur anyway? 764 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:24,780 Um, 765 00:38:25,780 --> 00:38:26,380 Prasanna Malaiyandi: not at all. 766 00:38:26,380 --> 00:38:26,860 Curtis. 767 00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:35,520 I guess for people who want to get access to M-Discs and the drives, right, is 768 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:41,340 it just a matter of looking up where verbatim sells their M-Disc purchasing, 769 00:38:41,490 --> 00:38:44,670 uh, in whatever the appropriate size they're looking for and just making 770 00:38:44,670 --> 00:38:46,950 sure they have a compatible Blu-Ray. 771 00:38:48,180 --> 00:38:48,660 Barry Lunt: Yes. 772 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,380 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, it seems pretty straightforward. 773 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,920 Uh, and I did quite a bit of research on, on Amazon. 774 00:38:59,010 --> 00:39:04,830 There was no shortage of vendors that were selling M-Disc capable Blu-Ray drives. 775 00:39:04,835 --> 00:39:07,770 The only challenge I found was in. 776 00:39:08,385 --> 00:39:13,875 Um, finding ones that had the, the 100 gigabyte or the 50 gigabyte stamp on them. 777 00:39:14,445 --> 00:39:17,565 Um, so now, now that I understand that 100 gigabyte is really 778 00:39:17,570 --> 00:39:19,185 just 50 gigabyte flipped over. 779 00:39:19,905 --> 00:39:24,075 I don't know how that , I don't know how much that will affect my, my research. 780 00:39:24,495 --> 00:39:27,945 Uh, cuz there were a lot, there were a lot that said 50 gigabyte, I thought. 781 00:39:30,255 --> 00:39:36,475 Um, I'm sure your, your answer to this will probably. 782 00:39:37,155 --> 00:39:41,565 I have no idea how to answer that question, but I'm asking anyway, um, 783 00:39:42,435 --> 00:39:48,975 there, there are some people out there that have, that are using the M-Disc and 784 00:39:49,035 --> 00:39:59,085 that they, they were critical of some of the Blu-Ray drives that write to. 785 00:39:59,985 --> 00:40:07,395 Um, and it's like, well, what would make a good drive versus a 786 00:40:07,395 --> 00:40:09,265 bad drive when writing to M-Disc? 787 00:40:09,285 --> 00:40:10,945 Do you have any idea what that might be. 788 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:12,420 Barry Lunt: Oh, yes. 789 00:40:12,570 --> 00:40:15,810 Unfortunately, there's quite a bit of variation in how the write strategy 790 00:40:15,810 --> 00:40:20,800 works on the laser, the, the interface between the laser and the media itself. 791 00:40:21,450 --> 00:40:24,420 Can cause quite a bit of variation because there's movement of the 792 00:40:24,420 --> 00:40:26,760 head, both laterally and vertically. 793 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,240 And then of course the media is not always a hundred percent consistent 794 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:31,440 across the surface of the disc. 795 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,540 So you're going to have areas where the laser works more 796 00:40:33,540 --> 00:40:35,070 effectively or less effectively. 797 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,120 And so you wind up with, uh, what we call headroom. 798 00:40:39,570 --> 00:40:45,870 Uh, headroom is the distance between how good, how well a disc operates uh, 799 00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:50,520 without failing and how perfect it could be if everything worked perfectly, that's 800 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:51,870 the headroom that you have to work with. 801 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,910 So you always want a disc that works yet has room for improvement, fewer errors, 802 00:40:56,910 --> 00:41:01,380 in other words, and that is all a function of the physics of the recording process. 803 00:41:01,890 --> 00:41:04,020 But as soon as you get below that headroom, you're suddenly 804 00:41:04,020 --> 00:41:05,640 starting to run out of room. 805 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,850 And now you're, you're recording with so many errors that you will 806 00:41:08,850 --> 00:41:12,240 not be able to read it back, uh, with a hundred percent corrected error. 807 00:41:14,025 --> 00:41:15,675 W. Curtis Preston: But I'm, I'm not sure. 808 00:41:15,675 --> 00:41:17,685 Maybe, maybe you heard a different question than the 809 00:41:17,685 --> 00:41:19,185 one I thought I asked, but. 810 00:41:20,265 --> 00:41:23,475 Because I don't think that's an answer to the question I thought I was asking. 811 00:41:23,850 --> 00:41:24,510 Barry Lunt: Sorry about that. 812 00:41:24,945 --> 00:41:25,665 W. Curtis Preston: that's fine. 813 00:41:26,025 --> 00:41:28,485 I'm talking about the drives themselves. 814 00:41:29,085 --> 00:41:36,555 Like what would make a good Blu-Ray drive versus a, not as good Blu-Ray drive. 815 00:41:36,555 --> 00:41:36,945 And I. 816 00:41:37,050 --> 00:41:37,590 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 817 00:41:37,740 --> 00:41:39,390 For someone looking to purchase a drive. 818 00:41:39,390 --> 00:41:39,630 Yeah. 819 00:41:39,630 --> 00:41:41,430 How can they figure out which one 820 00:41:41,475 --> 00:41:44,685 W. Curtis Preston: because the, the price difference is like there 821 00:41:44,685 --> 00:41:47,345 are $40 drives that do M-Disc. 822 00:41:47,625 --> 00:41:50,415 There are $150 drives that do M-Disc. 823 00:41:51,705 --> 00:41:55,525 What's difference between a $40 Blu-Ray drive and $150. 824 00:41:55,525 --> 00:41:56,205 Blu-Ray drive. 825 00:41:56,205 --> 00:41:56,835 Marketing. 826 00:41:57,420 --> 00:42:00,480 Barry Lunt: I clearly did not answer the question you asked and I apologize. 827 00:42:00,870 --> 00:42:04,470 So the, the answer to that is I would have to test the drives myself. 828 00:42:04,830 --> 00:42:09,900 I would have to take a bunch of standard media and record on each of the, the 829 00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:13,860 drives and then see what my error rate is in the read back, because you're right. 830 00:42:14,190 --> 00:42:18,270 Uh, I can't tell when I look at the brand, I can say, well, that's a reputable brand. 831 00:42:18,510 --> 00:42:20,820 Is this brand $150 versus. 832 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:22,000 $60. 833 00:42:22,210 --> 00:42:23,380 Is it worth that much more? 834 00:42:23,620 --> 00:42:24,340 I don't know. 835 00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:28,600 And until I do an analysis of the discs that it writes and, and look at how 836 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,430 many errors there are on that disc. 837 00:42:30,435 --> 00:42:34,510 When I read it back, I won't know the difference, but is it possible that 838 00:42:34,510 --> 00:42:40,660 a $160 drive will have fewer errors when I read it back than a $40 drive? 839 00:42:40,660 --> 00:42:41,770 Yes, it's possible. 840 00:42:41,890 --> 00:42:42,820 But can I say that? 841 00:42:42,910 --> 00:42:44,080 No, not without testing. 842 00:42:44,250 --> 00:42:45,750 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And then I think the other challenge will 843 00:42:45,750 --> 00:42:47,460 be quality control too, right? 844 00:42:47,460 --> 00:42:49,530 Because that $160 drive, right? 845 00:42:49,535 --> 00:42:52,530 You might have a batch that looks amazing and someone else buys the exact same 846 00:42:52,530 --> 00:42:54,630 one and they just got a crummy batch. 847 00:42:54,630 --> 00:42:58,590 And so now you get more error rate or bit errors than before. 848 00:42:59,040 --> 00:42:59,460 Barry Lunt: Bit errors. 849 00:42:59,610 --> 00:43:00,240 Exactly. 850 00:43:01,875 --> 00:43:02,145 W. Curtis Preston: All right. 851 00:43:02,145 --> 00:43:04,815 Well, my research continues well. 852 00:43:04,875 --> 00:43:06,495 Uh, yeah. 853 00:43:06,555 --> 00:43:09,075 Um, it's been fascinating, Barry. 854 00:43:09,175 --> 00:43:11,505 I am encouraged and excited about this medium. 855 00:43:11,505 --> 00:43:12,825 It's new to me. 856 00:43:12,825 --> 00:43:15,045 So I, I want call it new medium. 857 00:43:15,135 --> 00:43:16,245 It's not that new. 858 00:43:16,695 --> 00:43:24,015 Um, and you know, I, I have the same concern that you do, right? 859 00:43:24,225 --> 00:43:28,215 The same concern that started the creation of M-disc. 860 00:43:28,695 --> 00:43:30,255 I, I think about it all the time. 861 00:43:30,255 --> 00:43:38,310 I think about how that, um, you know, We, we, we used to get a box of letters, 862 00:43:38,340 --> 00:43:39,840 you know, from an attic somewhere. 863 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:44,340 And you learn stuff from somebody from a hundred years ago, there 864 00:43:44,340 --> 00:43:46,140 are no boxes of letters anymore. 865 00:43:46,380 --> 00:43:47,340 That's gone. 866 00:43:47,610 --> 00:43:47,820 Barry Lunt: that's. 867 00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:49,050 W. Curtis Preston: right. 868 00:43:49,050 --> 00:43:51,450 That that's, that's just, that's just not gonna happen unless 869 00:43:51,455 --> 00:43:54,450 somebody hands over the password of my Gmail account or something. 870 00:43:54,450 --> 00:43:54,750 Right. 871 00:43:55,110 --> 00:43:58,320 But, uh, and assuming my Gmail account is around. 872 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,820 10 years, but, but the photos, the photos are a real thing. 873 00:44:03,090 --> 00:44:04,560 We, we really don't. 874 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:12,030 We really don't as a, the current society is so we're, we're so 875 00:44:12,030 --> 00:44:16,950 used to very reliable pieces of technology until I drop it. 876 00:44:17,010 --> 00:44:17,610 Of course. 877 00:44:17,855 --> 00:44:18,455 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Or wash it. 878 00:44:19,350 --> 00:44:21,850 W. Curtis Preston: and yeah, or wash it, shut up Prasanna. 879 00:44:21,870 --> 00:44:22,890 You don't know what you're talking about. 880 00:44:23,370 --> 00:44:25,710 Um, I'm on my second set of. 881 00:44:26,670 --> 00:44:30,120 AirPods here, by the way, due to a little trip in the wash. 882 00:44:30,550 --> 00:44:38,350 We don't as a, as a society just, we don't do a good job of preserving the stuff that 883 00:44:38,350 --> 00:44:40,750 used to automatically be preserved for us. 884 00:44:41,380 --> 00:44:41,740 Right. 885 00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:47,250 I think if you want to start going down the route of properly 886 00:44:47,255 --> 00:44:52,980 preserving, even just for yourself properly preserving important. 887 00:44:53,415 --> 00:44:58,815 Photos and videos that you think you would like to have in 20 years? 888 00:45:00,065 --> 00:45:02,575 I can't think of a better way to do that than M-Disc. 889 00:45:03,555 --> 00:45:06,075 Barry Lunt: Yeah, they, they will be there. 890 00:45:06,315 --> 00:45:07,875 The disc will have the data. 891 00:45:08,745 --> 00:45:11,685 I, I like to tell other people that say, well, the cloud's a solution. 892 00:45:11,685 --> 00:45:13,395 Well, the cloud is a very nice solution. 893 00:45:13,665 --> 00:45:16,335 As long as you continue to pay your annual subscription fee. 894 00:45:16,905 --> 00:45:19,515 But when you die, they don't preserve it because they love you. 895 00:45:20,025 --> 00:45:21,465 They preserve it because you pay them. 896 00:45:21,975 --> 00:45:24,675 So once you stop paying them, they will not preserve your data. 897 00:45:24,675 --> 00:45:25,995 It's not going to be there. 898 00:45:26,385 --> 00:45:28,335 W. Curtis Preston: No, it's not gonna happen. 899 00:45:28,725 --> 00:45:29,775 Well, Barry, thanks. 900 00:45:29,775 --> 00:45:31,215 Thanks so much for coming on. 901 00:45:32,205 --> 00:45:32,805 Barry Lunt: Thank you, Curtis. 902 00:45:32,805 --> 00:45:33,135 Thank you. 903 00:45:33,135 --> 00:45:33,805 Thank you, Prasanna. 904 00:45:33,805 --> 00:45:35,055 It's been great to visit with you both. 905 00:45:36,330 --> 00:45:37,380 W. Curtis Preston: Thanks Prasanna. 906 00:45:37,710 --> 00:45:41,610 Um, I, you know, do you think, do you think we covered this? 907 00:45:41,670 --> 00:45:42,030 Alright. 908 00:45:42,030 --> 00:45:42,540 This week? 909 00:45:42,570 --> 00:45:43,830 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I think we did a good job. 910 00:45:43,835 --> 00:45:45,720 And thank you, Barry, for answering our questions. 911 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,560 Honestly, at this point, I'm like I have a bunch of things, pictures 912 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,160 and other important stuff, sitting on disks and other things I'm like, 913 00:45:53,460 --> 00:45:58,290 maybe I should go pick up an M-Disc drive and some media Curtis, when you 914 00:45:58,290 --> 00:46:01,350 finish your research, just tell me what you buy so I can buy the same thing. 915 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:02,610 It makes it easier. 916 00:46:03,345 --> 00:46:04,665 W. Curtis Preston: Well, I'm gonna buy 10. 917 00:46:04,815 --> 00:46:05,355 Apparently. 918 00:46:05,355 --> 00:46:05,955 That's what I need to do. 919 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,805 I'm gonna buy 10 Blu-Ray drives. 920 00:46:08,895 --> 00:46:10,455 Um, and then I, you 921 00:46:10,635 --> 00:46:12,345 Prasanna Malaiyandi: You don't, you know, an easier solution for this. 922 00:46:13,155 --> 00:46:13,575 W. Curtis Preston: what 923 00:46:13,695 --> 00:46:15,255 Prasanna Malaiyandi: We should just ask Daniel what he bought, because 924 00:46:15,255 --> 00:46:16,815 I bet you, he did the research and. 925 00:46:17,025 --> 00:46:17,815 W. Curtis Preston: I hate it. 926 00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:19,200 I bet. 927 00:46:19,530 --> 00:46:20,820 I bet you, you are right. 928 00:46:20,910 --> 00:46:24,660 Uh, Daniel, but if I know Daniel, he probably bought the $150 drive. 929 00:46:25,260 --> 00:46:26,370 Um, yeah. 930 00:46:26,670 --> 00:46:27,150 Anyway. 931 00:46:27,450 --> 00:46:29,730 All right, well, thank you very much to the listeners. 932 00:46:29,940 --> 00:46:33,780 We'd be nothing without you be sure to subscribe, uh, so 933 00:46:33,780 --> 00:46:35,580 that you can restore it all.