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So what if you're coming out of
shutdown and you find yourself with a

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new Stuck state or a new predicament,
which is having more freeze activation.

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I want to address this as a real
question I got from, or as a

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real person asking a question on
YouTube that I wanted to address.

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Hi, I'm Justin Sunseri.

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I'm a therapist and coach and I want
to teach you how to live with more

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calm, confidence, and connection
without psychobabble or woo woo.

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Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.

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Of course, this is not therapy
and should not replace therapy.

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So here's the question.

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It says, "Thank you, Justin.

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Since I discovered you, I was
able to get out of shutdown mode

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that I've been in for years."

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Super happy for you.

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Congratulations on the progress.

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"I was able to get out of the shutdown
mode that I've been in for years.

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Maybe most of my life.

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But now I'm in freeze.

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And while I understand slightly touching
on a safe state, I'm not sure I understand

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what touching on defense feels like.

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Can you please explain that for me
again, or thanks again, your work

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is so important to all of us."

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I'm really happy to read that the
progress and also I'm glad that what I

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put out there has been helpful for you.

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Let's learn or relearn what
shutdown and freeze are.

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And then I'm going to address in
general, and I don't know about

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this person in particular, but in
general, what could be happening if,

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if, if someone's going through this.

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And then I will lightly touch
upon how to lightly touch upon.

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defensive activation.

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So first off, shutdown and
freeze are different things.

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Shutdown is, in the, in the polyvagal
theory, shutdown is a state of collapse.

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It's a state of limp collapse.

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It is the last resort when we cannot
be safe, run away, be aggressive.

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If none of those strategies work, or if
we're not able to be safe, can't run away

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or fight off a danger, then we collapse.

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We shut down.

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Our body plays dead.

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Uh, the other option would be Freeze.

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Freeze is, uh, just like
Shutdown, it's immobilization,

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but it's a tense immobilization.

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So Shutdown is a limp collapse, it's
immobilized, but Freeze is a tense

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immobilization, more like a statue.

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The body is ready to run away or fight,
but also immobilizing at the same time.

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Freeze is a combination of flight,
fight, flight or fight plus shutdown.

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So freeze is a combination of shutdown
immobilization and flight or fight.

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Both of these polyvagal autonomic
states are occurring at the same time.

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So we have our foot on the gas, but
also on the brake at the same time.

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Shutdown is, is not a
mixed state like that.

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Shutdown is a primary state.

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It's um, it's just the dorsal
vagal pathways are active and,

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or more overly active and, and
someone goes into a limp collapse.

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So they're, they're different.

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I guess just to sum it up, shutdown
is a limp collapsed immobilization

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and freeze is a tense immobilization.

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They are similar, but different.

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And it's going to play into what
could be happening if someone finds

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themselves going through, uh, what
the questioner, uh, put forth.

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Which is, I'm coming out of shutdown.

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So a, a, a prolonged, uh, even maybe
decades worth of living in shutdown,

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which is not playing dead, but
the body's in a state of collapse.

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It's in a state of disconnection.

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It's in a state of numbness and low
energy and unable to fulfill the wants

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that the person has like they want to
do things, but they lack the energy to

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make it happen So even though it's not
playing dead for decades that activate

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that- that shutdown activation is
active in the system for decades, and

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that's what it can look like day to day.

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Really quick, again, a reminder, to get
to shutdown, one has to go, they can't be

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safe, they can't be in their safety state.

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They can't run away, they can't fight,
and so the body collapses in shutdown.

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One can get stuck in
shutdown, and that's trauma.

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One can get stuck in a state of
defense, and one of those states

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of defense would be shutdown.

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So to come out of shutdown, to
come out of that stuck defensive

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state, that traumatized shutdown
state, you have to do the reverse.

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You can't just be done with
shutdown and feel safe and fulfilled

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and how to live a content life.

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It's not exactly how it works.

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You kind of have to go through
for really full healing.

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You have to go from shutdown
through fight, through flight, and

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then back into your safety state.

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Now that's the very one dimensional
cartoon way of looking at it.

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It is more complex than that.

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All of these states are active
within us pretty much at all times.

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Like right now I'm immobile.

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I'm sitting still, but you know, my
hands are moving and I'm talking a lot

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and thinking critically and rapidly.

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And so I'm in my safety state,
but I'm also kind of mobile.

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I'm also immobile.

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So it's all these things are
kind of happening all at once.

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My dominant state or one's dominant
state might be shut down or might

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be flight fight or might be safety.

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So if your dominant state is shut
down, For that to ease up, you

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have to have more access to safety.

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So you have to build up the
strength of your safety state.

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As you do that, the dominance from
shutdown alleviates, but now flight

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and fight come more online because
our body has to go through those

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autonomic shifts in order to get
even deeper into its safety state and

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have more of a dominant safety state.

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So, when you come out of shutdown,
what you'll find is that now there's

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more fight, probably specifically
fight happening, but we'll call

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it, we'll say flight and fight.

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As you come out of shutdown, there's
more sympathetic flight fight activation.

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But again, it's not all at once.

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So it's not like you're in shutdown
today and then 12 hours from now, at the

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end of the day, you're out of shutdown.

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It's a gradual process of
coming out of shutdown.

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So, as immobilization softens,
mobilization will increase,

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but it's not one or the other.

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So you might have a ton of shutdown today.

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And then two months from now, that
shutdown has decreased by 50%.

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Let's give it a number.

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And since it's decreased by 50%, now
the mobilization system has increased

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by, I don't know, we'll say 10
percent and safety's increased by 40%.

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I make it up numbers.

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Don't worry about the numbers.

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So even though shutdown's gone down
and safety has come up, well now

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there's more room in your system
to have sympathetic activation.

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But the shutdown's still there.

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So what could be happening is that,
especially if there's not enough safety

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in the system, as shutdown recedes,
well now sympathetic's coming up.

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And so now we have sympathetic
flight fight and shutdown,

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uh, kind of co occurring.

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Uh, they're, so they're there,
and, and this is, this could

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be the process of healing.

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This could be the process, this
could be a sign of progress.

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So it's not like the shutdown's done
and I'm good, it's, well now shutdown's

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less, and now I have to also feel and
utilize my, my newfound sympathetic

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fight activation, plus seek out
safety and, and practice feeling that.

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So there's a lot of things
that kinda happen all at once.

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But that could be What's happening in
a situation like this, so shutdown's

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less cool, but sympathetic's more.

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But now both of those are kind of in the
system, and it could feel like a freeze.

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It could feel like, not a full
on freeze probably, but, um, it

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could feel like there's something
I'm working on, and I'm making

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progress on it, but I keep stalling.

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Or there's something in my mind that
I want to achieve, and I'm just,

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I'm not moving forward with it.

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So there's mobilization.

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It's there.

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I want to create this art project.

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And I started it, but then I just
sit there staring at the canvas.

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So there's mobilization.

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The body wants to do something, but just
kind of stalls or just kind of freezes.

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But it's not an intense freeze
where your muscles are actually

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tense and your eyes are wide.

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It's not a panic attack.

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It's more just, it could look like that.

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Could it look like a panic attack?

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Could it look like a freeze?

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Eh, kinda.

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My client work, at least, and for myself.

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As shutdown recedes, there's definitely
more sympathetic in the system.

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Uh, it can look like a big burst of
it, where like, Oh, this feels great,

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let me just run with this and use it.

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But it's kinda all over the
place, and so it's dysregulated.

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That, that can, it's, there's no
like one way these things can look.

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And, and so it could look more like
stalling, it could look like out

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of control, sympathetic, but not.

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Like you're actually, you know, hurting
someone, but just a lot of aggression in

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my system and now I'm telling people off
or, or I'm getting a ton of work done,

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but I'm not really being that productive.

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I'm just sort of spinning my wheels.

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It could look different ways.

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So, for the question that's put forth,
when we come out of shutdown and we

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notice some freeze or some lingering
or background freeze or, Something

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in that realm that could be what's
happening is that now they're just more

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sympathetic, but it's also shut down.

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And so those two things are in a sense
competing, uh, but really in you and your

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system, in your safety state, there's an
inability to, or the strength is lacking

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to allow both of those activations to
allow yourself to be shut down, but

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also to vacillate over to mobilization.

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The safety state always
needs to be strengthened.

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All of us, I think.

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Every day we should be working on that.

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But as the safety state strengthens,
the shutdown will continue to recede

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and it'll be able, the safety state
will be able to greet and welcome and

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um, point the emerging sympathetic
activation in the appropriate direction.

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that's, that's meaningful.

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I'm actually working on something
right now, a new cohort and course

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called Stillness to Sympathetic.

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And that is going to teach people how to
who people who have access to stillness,

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which is, um, shut down plus safety.

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So people have access to stillness
and are noticing some sympathetic

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activation coming back in their system.

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It teaches that person how to welcome
it, how to feel it, but also how

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to direct it toward a meaningful.

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goals, hobbies, productivity, whatever
they want, exercise to be able to point

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that emerging sympathetic activation
in the right direction or in the

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direction that is right for them.

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The questioner asks, they, or they say
they know how to touch upon safety,

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great, but how do you touch upon defense?

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It, it's the process of it, at
least the way I break it down in

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my coursework is very similar.

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And what I would ask you or ask anyone,
not just the questioner, but I would

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ask us to do is can you mindfully
connect with what you feel in the

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present moment, no matter what it is?

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And that's not easy.

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But when it comes to safety, can
you go for a walk and mindfully

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connect with the experience of
the sensory input around you?

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So that would be like, going
for a walk, and it's a sunny

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day, and I like that feeling.

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Like, yay, this is nice.

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Um, that's safety, and that's
nice, but it's like passive safety.

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You're not really mindfully
connecting with it.

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You're not getting the most out of it.

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So the next step would be, can you
mindfully experience what it's like

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to go out for a walk on a sunny day.

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Can you notice how the sun feels on your
skin and how that affects your breath?

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Can you notice what the chill of the
air might feel like on your face and

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how you feel about that internally?

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What happens inside of you
based on that external input?

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Can you listen to a bird and
notice whether you like it or not?

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And if you like it, how could you tell?

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What do you feel internally?

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Are you more or less likely to
smile when you listen to that bird?

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So all of these pieces.

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When we mindfully attune to them one
by one and notice how we feel inside

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of it, that to me, that's mindfulness.

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To me, that is mindfully putting
the reps in and feeling your

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safety state when it's there.

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So same thing when it comes
to defensive activation.

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Can we notice it when it's there
and mindfully connect with it?

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That would be what I would encourage
people to do in my coursework, what

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I encourage people to do is have-
or at least starting out, have an

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environment in their home where it is
giving them consistent cues of safety.

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We call it the Passive Safety Environment.

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It's also in book number two that
I, that I wrote, uh, Stuck Not

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Broken: Book Two -Building Safety.

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If you have a Passive Safety
Environment that has the right

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sound, the right lighting, the
right sense, you know, whatever.

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If you have the right seating.

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If, for you as an individual, if you
have that and you can feel your safety

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state and mindfully connect with it,
well, what else is inside of you?

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Once you're grounded in safety, then
you can lightly touch upon, or deeply

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if you want to, you can lightly
touch upon defensive activation.

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And that would be, "well, I know
I have a chronic shutdown" or

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"I know I have this lingering
freeze stuff happening within me.

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I'm in my safety state.

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I'm connected to my
passive safety environment.

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I can feel present.

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I feel connected.

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I'm curious and I'm interested in
what the world is like inside of me.

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And so, what does this
shutdown stuff feel like?

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What does it truly feel like
to be, to experience numbness?

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What does frustration feel like?"

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And so how do you feel those
feelings inside of yourself?

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Well, you would, well first
off, permit them to be.

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They're given permission to be.

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And then ask yourself, where do
those feelings live in my body?

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Where do I feel shutdown?

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Where do I feel frustration?

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And then if you can identify
where it lives in your body, spend

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some time with it, notice it.

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Um, ask yourself, what does it look like?

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What does it, if I touched
it, what does it feel like?

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What shape is it?

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What size is it?

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What color is it?

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I know these are weird questions,
but this is how we connect with our

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internal world through description.

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And it gets easier over time, but
initially you might have to be

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very objective and ask yourself
those questions, but over time it

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becomes, you don't have to do that.

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But that would be a way to
touch upon how you feel.

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And actually, if you just stuck with,
"It's okay for me to feel shut down,"

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or "it's okay for me to feel a little
bit of frustration" and notice where it

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live in your body while staying anchored
in your safety state, to me, that's,

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I would call that a light practice
as you go deeper and you actually

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feel into and notice the experience
of whatever emotion you're allowing

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or whatever state you're allowing.

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And that's where.

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Well, that's where we get deeper into it.

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And that's where real change
and unstucking can happen.

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That's where we can allow something like
frustration or, or, uh, that emerging

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sympathetic activation, anxiety, maybe.

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We can allow frustration or anxiety
to be present, connect with it

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mindfully, and then pendulate over to
our safety state and reconnect with

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that and then pendulate back and forth.

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That.

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is what truly allows that
next level of unstucking.

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But, lightly?

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If you're touching upon defense lightly,
be anchored in your safety state, uh,

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in the, in the, in your Passive Safety
Environment, and then, be mindful, be

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curious about what else is inside of you.

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What, what that defensive
activation, that lingering defensive

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activation, what it feels like.

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That's what I would say.

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That's how you lightly touch upon it.

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That's a great question.

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Thank you, uh, YouTube, commenter,
watcher, listener, questioner,

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. Thank you for putting that forth.

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I really like responding to questions.

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So if you have questions,
put 'em in the comments.

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On YouTube, email me if you, um, are a
podcast listener, justinlmft at gmail.

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com.

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Just email me.

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That's fine too.

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But I would love to
respond to more of these.

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Um, I get a lot of it personally.

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I want to make sure that, you know,
you're getting the answers that

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you're searching for as much as I can.

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I can't get obviously super
detailed and I can't tailor

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anything specifically for someone.

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That's more for like coaching
and therapy, obviously.

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If the Polyvagal Theory and building
your safety state appeal to you, I would

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encourage you to check out my books,
Stuck Not Broken Book One and Book Two.

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Book One teaches you the Pauli Vigil
theory, helps you write a new, really

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00:16:23,054 --> 00:16:27,514
brief narrative of yourself with more
compassion, uh, and, uh, less judgment.

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And Book Two teaches you deeply about
safety, Polyvagal safety- how to notice

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it, how to feel it, how to build it,
how to do it again and again and again.

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And book three's not out yet, but that'll
teach you how to get, uh, unstuck.

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So check those books out.

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I'll have a link in the
description for you.

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Otherwise, thanks for
hanging out with me and bye.

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This podcast is not therapy,
not intended to be therapy or

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be a replacement for therapy.

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Nothing in this creates or indicates
a therapeutic relationship.

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Please consult with your therapist or
seek for one in your area if you are

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experiencing mental health symptoms.

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00:17:02,324 --> 00:17:05,174
Nothing in this podcast should
be construed to be specific life

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00:17:05,174 --> 00:17:08,694
advice, it is for educational
and entertainment purposes only.