Welcome to the e-commerce podcast.
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My name is Matt Edmondson and it is great to be with you today.
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I am chatting with Selena Knight all the way from the other side of the world, from the
land down under, as we would say in Britain.
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What, in fact, Selena, let me ask you a question.
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What do you say about Brits?
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Are we the land down up?
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I don't know.
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How do you refer to it?
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Well, my husband's from the UK and I think we just say from the UK or in the UK.
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You know what?
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It's kind of like, oh can we look, I don't know if this is a great start.
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You know how you can edit this out if you're not happy with it, but you know how
Americans, lot of Americans have like, I think it's like 90 % of Americans have never left
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their country.
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it's a really big number,
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And when you ask them, you there's those memes where you ask Americans to point out
different countries and they can't find them.
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I feel like Australians are like that with anything that is remotely UK-ish.
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It's just the UK.
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And it could be, it could be Scotland, it could be England, it could be, it could be
Paris, but you know what?
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It's just the UK.
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the UK.
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Yeah, no, fair enough.
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Fair enough.
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That's brilliant.
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We just call it the UK.
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Why don't we just call it Australia?
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I don't know.
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Why do we have to call it the land down under?
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Who knows?
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Who knows?
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I'm sure there's some history buff somewhere that's going to give me, you know, LinkedIn
message telling me why.
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But that's great.
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It's great to see you on the show.
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Thanks for coming.
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No problems, thank you for having me.
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I have to be honest with you, for those of watching on YouTube, you'll notice that you
actually have a really good microphone.
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So I have slight mic envy.
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Ooh, ooh, I love this microphone.
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Are we allowed to like digress this early in the podcast?
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I may well have many microphones, but I went, okay, we're talking about retail and the
experience.
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Like this is, I'm just side barring and bringing this back in.
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When I first started podcasting, which was 11 years ago, I had some crappy microphone and
I remember somebody giving me a horrible review saying, oh, the audio is terrible.
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Because back then we didn't have video, we just had audio.
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And so I remember thinking, okay, I'm going to do this.
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I'm going to go to like a microphone shop, do they exist?
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And I'm going to see if I can find someone who will let me try microphones.
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Because I remember back in the day listening to people like Pat Flynn and
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I'm just trying to think of who else there was, but they had these like quite smooth
microphones.
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And so I did, I did all this research and I found this store.
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actually wasn't too far away.
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It was a music store.
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Right.
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but they had a sound booth in there.
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And so you would go in and you're like, I would like to try a podcast.
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And I'm still, I still have literally no audio knowledge whatsoever, but they're like, do
you want a bright pod?
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Do you want a bright microphone or a, I don't know, all these other words of microphones.
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I just want to sound, I want my voice to sound like husky and sexy.
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I want the hucky and sexy microphone, that's what I want.
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Yeah, but apparently there are different microphones that can change.
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I mean, you may know more than me.
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And so he put all these microphones through and I listened to this microphone and I was
like, this is the one.
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And it was a brand I'd never heard of.
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It is an SE 2200.
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Yep.
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and never heard of it, didn't care.
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It was reasonably priced, I'm going to say like $600.
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And you know, those Sinehouser microphones go for a ridiculous amount of money.
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This is my third one of the exact same microphone.
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So one I may have dropped.
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um One they did repair under warranty and it just started crackling.
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And so this is my third one and I absolutely love it.
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I'm yet to find somewhere else.
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But here's the thing, if we can bring this back to retail, and I know that the people who
are listening are e-commerce, it's how do you think about that customer experience?
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Like I will continuously go back to that store and I have bought many microphones from
that store just because A, they know what they're talking about.
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And B, they could provide something that no one else could, which was I could go in and
try the thing and find the thing I wanted.
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Now, I appreciate you can't always translate that to online, but I'm gonna guarantee the
people listening probably have a lot of experience in their field.
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And so my question would be, how are you translating that Insta experience to online?
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Because there are ways of doing it.
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So.
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That's my little story about the microphone and I'm sorry I've just wasted about 6 or 7
minutes talking about microphones.
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No, no, no.
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It's fascinating.
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You're right, aren't you?
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Because what they did listening to you talk, it reminds me of the Apple store, right?
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I have done this with folks.
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I've taken them into the Apple store and just like made them stand there and just watch
the salespeople in Apple.
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Because I remember the first time it was made aware to me how well they actually did was I
remember going into the Apple store.
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I was looking at something.
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So, you I can't remember what it was, but I remember this, this old fella coming in the
door and the person greeted him at the door and said, how can we help you?
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And he was like, I need to get one of those eyes thing.
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What are they?
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Saucepans or something?
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I don't know.
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And the guy goes, do mean an iPad?
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He says, I think so.
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I don't know what it is.
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I've just been told to come and get one.
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And he's like, what do you want to do with it?
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He says,
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I do that thing where I call my granddaughter but I see her on the screen and the guy
goes, ah FaceTime.
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Now the granddad here has no idea what FaceTime is.
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He doesn't even know what the iPad is.
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He just knows what he wants, right?
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Like you, I want a microphone with the sexy and the husky settings, please.
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That's what I want.
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What they did in Apple was they got him an iPad.
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And they showed him how to do a FaceTime call.
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They didn't talk to him about screen resolution.
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They didn't talk to him about battery life.
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They didn't talk to him about the app store because I was listening to every single bit of
it.
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All they did was talk to him about how did FaceTime and they even showed him how easy it
was by doing FaceTime calls across the Apple store.
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He was like, the guy was like, do this.
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I'm going go over the other side, hit the button and let's see how it works.
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And of course, Grandad goes out with an iPad.
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I thought it was
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utter genius, the ability to quickly diagnose what it is they, the customer wants in the
language that the customer wants it and deliver that.
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I think you're going to win every day.
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And without overwhelming them.
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so I think what we, what I take away from that is I remember, I've been in retail a really
long time.
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And I remember back when we had our stores, like I was on, I had an e-commerce store in
2007.
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Now that may not seem like a long time ago, but I like to reference it with guys in 2007,
we had to push the number one button three times if we wanted the letter C.
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Okay.
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We did not have data on our phones.
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just to put it into reference.
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we had dial-up as well.
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Oh no, do we have dial-up in 2000?
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Probably.
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Okay.
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were here in Australia.
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So I had an e-commerce store then and Flash was our favoritest thing in the world.
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But besides that, I remember bringing in a, I don't know, a system.
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Because I'm going to say I had a business degree, told me nothing about running a
business.
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This is the kind of stuff they should teach you.
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So I remember people would come into my store and they would say, oh, I'm looking for a
gift.
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So to give you some reference, we sold eco baby products, like eco baby products and
gifts.
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So wooden toys, as well as things like reusable nappies back when eco wasn't even a thing.
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And so a lot of people, exactly what you just said, they would come in and they're like,
oh,
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I'm shopping for my friend and she's like a crunchy hippie person and so I've got to find
like you guys seem like you might have something for them.
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And I was like, cool, okay.
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And so here's, we called it the three questions and gosh, hopefully I don't like crash and
burn here and forget what the three questions were.
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But it was, it was something along, and I give myself the ability to come back and rectify
this if I remember correctly, but it was.
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Are you looking for, so when people would walk in, would be, you know, hi, have you been
to the store before?
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And if they said yes, then we would have a little matrix, which was like, okay, great.
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um
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you know, it was something along the lines of, you shopping for yourself or for a gift?
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So the idea was that you never had yes or no questions.
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And are you shopping for yourself or for a gift?
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I'm shopping for myself.
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And then it would be, okay, what can I help you with today?
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And then if it was a gift, we had the three questions, which were, um
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what type of person are they?
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So are they a sporty person?
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Are they the crunchy hippie person?
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Are they the modern person who just wants to be a little bit eco?
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And then I guess the next question would be like, what sort of pain point do you want to
fix?
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And so we would say something like, are they the kind of person who would like a candle or
are they the kind of person who would like antibacterial soap?
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And so we would start to get an idea of who this person was and what they would want.
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And then the last question was, what's the budget?
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And those three questions could usually mean that you could pinpoint where to point
somebody, especially if they were like your granddad, not your granddad, the granddad, who
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didn't quite know what they were looking for.
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And so what I've learned is that if you give someone more than three choices, they
probably won't buy anything.
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That's true, yeah.
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because they want a high price thing, a low price thing and a mid price thing.
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And inevitably, I tend to find that they buy the high price thing, which is great.
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And so when we're thinking about like e-commerce, one of the tips I always give people is
you have the ability to structure how customers are going to see your products when they
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come to a category page.
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It doesn't have to be highest to lowest.
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It doesn't have to be alphabetical.
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You get to choose, is canonical the right word?
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I think I feel like it's the right word.
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Yep.
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You get to choose the canonical structure of your page.
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so one of my tips, and I only usually share this with like my really high paying clients
is when somebody comes to a category section, will always have at least, assuming you have
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three across the page, two really high priced products.
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And then I'll have the product that you really want to sell.
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So like the best seller.
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And it's usually, you know, maybe 30 % cheaper.
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But what we're doing now is price anchoring.
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And it's the same reason that when you go into some stores, stores change the way they do
their layout, some will put discount stuff at the front, but some will put premium at the
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front, because the idea is the first number that we see, and this is behaviorally proven,
is where we set our benchmark.
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So let's say we're selling jeans and your average pair of jeans is $200, 200 pounds.
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If we put the first pair that they see at 300 pounds, yes, you may turn some people away.
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But you know what, they probably weren't gonna buy anyway.
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But if they go to the next wall and all of those jeans are 200 pounds, they're a bargain
compared to the first ones that I saw.
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And our brain has benchmarked the 300 pounds.
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So now what we're seeing, in fact, we're not even putting them at 200 pounds, are we?
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We're putting the 199.
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So we've gone from a three to a one and instantly they're more valuable.
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Does that make sense?
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No, totally.
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I think price anchoring is a really interesting strategy and it's a really interesting.
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I've, I noticed this at the Savoy.
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I don't know if you've ever been to the Savoy in London, you don't need to go, but I, we
went to meet a supplier there and the supply was buying me drinks and I opened the menu
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and the first, I just, I just have a gin and tonic.
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I don't need anything fancy.
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Give me a gin and good old fashioned gin and tonic.
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I opened the menu, gin and tonic was £16, Selena.
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I was, I was apoplectic.
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I was like, this is a Gordon's gin and tonic.
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Why are you charging me so much money?
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And then I turned the page and saw the cocktails and the cocktails were three or £400.
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I was like, that's just, not only is that nuts, it's itsy moral to spend 400 bucks on a
cocktail.
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I turned the page and there was one cocktail, their super flagship cocktail for £12,000.
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Right.
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I think I've heard this story actually in marketing.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Why I asked the lady, said to do you actually sell this 12,000 pound cocktail?
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So you'd be amazed how many we sell, right?
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The bankers that come and get their bonuses, they've just got a million pound bonus.
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They want, they're like, yeah, I'm just going to taste 12,000 pound cocktail cause I can.
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But what was happening?
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The reason I tell this story is same thing.
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And I recognize what was going on in my head.
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The first time I'm like gin and tonic 16 pounds is ridiculous.
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At that point I'm having tap water.
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And then I saw a 400 pound cocktail and thought, well, maybe a 16 pound gin and tonic is
not that bad.
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And then I saw a 12,000 pound cocktail and thought, 300 pound cocktails, not that bad.
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And the guy that was buying the drinks, the supplier was like, should we have a couple of
cocktails?
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I'm like, we would never have had that conversation had we not seen the 12,000 pound
cocktail.
220
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And it was all around pricing.
221
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Can I say you're kind of person who I had to hang out with because I would be like you,
I'd be like, you're paying but 16 pound cocktail, just give me some water, I'll be fine.
222
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So can I ask you a question then about how, when it comes to pricing, if we pull this back
to e-commerce.
223
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How do you tell people, or how do you advise people to charge, let's call in air quotes,
ridiculous prices?
224
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What's your suggestion there?
225
00:14:43,546 --> 00:14:44,031
absolutely.
226
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You should do it.
227
00:14:45,246 --> 00:14:45,887
But how?
228
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How do you...
229
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Can we talk about this?
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I've just like railroaded your podcast.
231
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I'm so sorry.
232
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no, no.
233
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Let's take over time.
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00:14:53,714 --> 00:14:59,092
uh You know what, I do the same when I go to the people's podcast.
235
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It's like, well, let me ask you a question.
236
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It's like, no, no, Matt, I'm the podcast host.
237
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m
238
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where I'm going with this is what I saw last year.
239
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Now, I'm sure it's the same in England.
240
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We've got some English customers and I'm sure it's the same there, which was 2025 was a
bit tight.
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was some people saw growth, but we definitely saw a change in consumer spending.
242
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And so where I saw the people who did, who either stayed the same or did well, were people
that were brands that would I, what I would call premium.
243
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So not luxury, not your Louis Vuitton's, but they're
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charging above the average for things.
245
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And some of those are very niche, so they can charge what they want.
246
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But others would just...
247
00:15:46,254 --> 00:15:53,355
And there's a company here in Australia that I always come back to because it is the most
basic ghetto thing, and they charge more.
248
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So there's a company here in Australia called The Party People.
249
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They sell party supplies, paper plates, hats, Dora the Explorer piñatas, all that kind of
stuff.
250
00:16:03,109 --> 00:16:11,228
Now you can buy a set of paper plates for, I'm just gonna say dollars, because we're
dollars here, you can convert, for $3.
251
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Pink paper plates, $3.
252
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However, they charge between $5 and $6 for the exact same plates.
253
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because and I'm talking same brand same everything but their point of difference is that
when you come to get your Dora the Explorer and clearly my kid has long since grown up if
254
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I'm saying Dora the Explorer
255
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You can have everything.
256
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You can have the pinata, you can have the plates, you can have the little paper bag, you
can have everything.
257
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You don't have to go to that store for the bags and that store for the hats.
258
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You can get everything.
259
00:16:47,591 --> 00:16:54,154
And so their whole point of difference was range and that you can shop for everything in
the one place.
260
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And as a result, as the consumer, you're like, well, I'll pay $6 for the plates because if
I go over there, I'm going to have to pay for shipping.
261
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And this is an online store, just FYI.
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If I
263
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to that store, then I'm going to have to pay another $10 shipping and then what if they
don't come?
264
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Like at least this, it all comes together in one thing.
265
00:17:13,019 --> 00:17:19,579
And so they can charge more because they have a different point of difference for
something that is very basic.
266
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But what I found in 2025 was the retailers that did well were people who were charging
above what everybody else was charging.
267
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And so I would love to hear your thoughts on
268
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What do you say to your clients, to your retailers about, you know what, you're selling
the same product as Joe Bloggs over there, but I think you should charge more.
269
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Yeah, absolutely.
270
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I think it's, I mean, I do it.
271
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I have an e-commerce site and we, one of our sites is a supplement site.
272
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We sell vitamin C on that supplement site.
273
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You can get vitamin C for two pounds from the supermarket.
274
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We sell it for I'm never going to clean up selling vitamin C, but I, the people that buy
it are just like, we know the brand, you know, you guys are going to make a good product
275
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and it's convenient.
276
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Right.
277
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And so that in itself has value.
278
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The other thing I like,
279
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I remember talking to a lady who owned a restaurant.
280
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I appreciate this is not e-commerce, but this is just one story that springs to mind.
281
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They were struggling.
282
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They were burger restaurant and they were like, there was three of them on the street.
283
00:18:26,639 --> 00:18:30,520
I walked up and down the street and there was these three burger shops and they're all
selling burgers for 10 pounds.
284
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And she's like, what do we do?
285
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How do we get more people in the shop?
286
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Cause they were just one of three.
287
00:18:35,012 --> 00:18:40,915
And at that point, when you're selling everything for the same price, there has to be a
point of differentiation.
288
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And there has to be, doesn't it?
289
00:18:42,148 --> 00:18:45,993
Like, see, you say that to me and my first thought was, judge 15.
290
00:18:46,063 --> 00:18:48,143
Well, I told her to double the price of the burgers.
291
00:18:48,143 --> 00:18:51,023
I said, don't sell a 10 pound burger, sell a 20 pound burger.
292
00:18:51,143 --> 00:18:55,063
Don't just double the prices, but find a reason to sell it for 20 pounds.
293
00:18:55,063 --> 00:18:57,943
And she's like, well, no one will buy because there's 10 pounds down the road.
294
00:18:57,943 --> 00:19:01,383
I said, they'll buy if you have a burger on your menu for 150 pounds.
295
00:19:01,763 --> 00:19:02,170
Right.
296
00:19:02,170 --> 00:19:03,116
look, it's like Kizmo.
297
00:19:03,116 --> 00:19:04,675
We're back to the same conversation.
298
00:19:04,675 --> 00:19:05,645
oh
299
00:19:05,645 --> 00:19:05,935
Right?
300
00:19:05,935 --> 00:19:09,257
So this is how I think you do price anchoring.
301
00:19:09,257 --> 00:19:15,759
like you say, if you online go and find some, we had a guy called Norm come on the show.
302
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:17,860
Norm was great.
303
00:19:17,860 --> 00:19:22,372
His whole philosophy in life was you take something from Amazon, like a knife.
304
00:19:22,372 --> 00:19:24,843
I think he used the example of a butcher's knife.
305
00:19:24,843 --> 00:19:27,945
Norm, Norm Ferroir, think, I can't remember, it's really bad.
306
00:19:27,945 --> 00:19:29,805
Sorry, Norm.
307
00:19:30,026 --> 00:19:33,165
But he took a butcher's knife, took it out of the...
308
00:19:33,165 --> 00:19:43,339
the cardboard box and put it in a wooden box, charge four times the price for it because
his photos now had a wooden box and sold gazillions of them at much higher profit margins.
309
00:19:43,399 --> 00:19:46,901
And I'm like, for me, that's how you figure it out.
310
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You sell, you figure out a reason as to why you become the most expensive.
311
00:19:51,683 --> 00:19:56,945
And I always think that's better than being the cheapest because then you're just selling
commodities and you have to try and differentiate.
312
00:19:56,945 --> 00:20:00,786
And the way you differentiate is you just differentiate on price, which is rubbish.
313
00:20:01,307 --> 00:20:02,627
So I think
314
00:20:03,873 --> 00:20:08,087
like you, I'm a fan of how do I put the prices up?
315
00:20:08,448 --> 00:20:13,933
How do I do that in a way that demonstrates value to the client where they feel like we're
getting something here?
316
00:20:14,245 --> 00:20:17,186
All right, I love this conversation.
317
00:20:19,047 --> 00:20:33,313
If we tie it back to as the business owner, if you are stuck, and I don't know about you,
but I know that most of the people that we work with, the owners or the founders are...
318
00:20:33,925 --> 00:20:35,486
freaking amazing people.
319
00:20:35,486 --> 00:20:49,456
They will work themselves to the bone and they've built this business because of like a
hard work tenacity, this sheer doggedness of, I was thinking this morning, why would
320
00:20:49,456 --> 00:20:51,597
anybody get into retail?
321
00:20:51,597 --> 00:21:02,544
Like, when you think about it, and I'm just side barring here and I hope you're okay with
that, is that most retailers I know are very adverse to risk.
322
00:21:02,703 --> 00:21:03,257
Mm.
323
00:21:03,257 --> 00:21:08,227
They, you don't know if I want to go into that new range or open another location,
whatever.
324
00:21:08,227 --> 00:21:11,893
But then I sit back and think, I was doing my hair this morning, I was like.
325
00:21:12,355 --> 00:21:22,630
How does it work that you, if you're that adverse to risk, that you decide to open a
business where literally every decision you make is a gamble.
326
00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:25,801
It's a gamble that when you order the product, it's going to turn up.
327
00:21:25,801 --> 00:21:27,942
It's a gamble that anyone's going to buy it.
328
00:21:27,942 --> 00:21:37,097
And you are investing tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in inventory on this
hope that someone is going to buy it you will make some money.
329
00:21:37,097 --> 00:21:40,578
And that is one of the biggest gambles when it comes to business.
330
00:21:40,578 --> 00:21:42,302
It's not even like a service business where you
331
00:21:42,302 --> 00:21:43,432
go out and do the work.
332
00:21:43,432 --> 00:21:44,953
That's pretty reliable.
333
00:21:44,953 --> 00:21:47,524
But retail, I'm like, how do you get into this?
334
00:21:47,524 --> 00:21:50,795
And so sometimes I do think, why don't we start retail businesses?
335
00:21:50,795 --> 00:22:03,259
um And so with that, my question to you, if the conversation we could have would be around
when retailers are so, and e-comment, I'm just going to use the generic word retailers.
336
00:22:03,259 --> 00:22:10,981
When we're so used to buying everything at wholesale price, how do we combat
337
00:22:11,265 --> 00:22:19,208
that idea of being affordable is the best place to hang out.
338
00:22:19,208 --> 00:22:30,013
And that we should be okay with telling our team that, you know, I'm going to go back to
Norm.
339
00:22:30,013 --> 00:22:38,777
Like, imagine he has a team of people who take knives out and put them in the wooden boxes
and the team potentially are saying, Norm, this is unethical.
340
00:22:40,547 --> 00:22:41,983
How do we deal with that?
341
00:22:44,655 --> 00:22:45,935
That's a great question.
342
00:22:46,056 --> 00:22:48,316
This is why I take people to the Apple store.
343
00:22:49,057 --> 00:22:53,329
Simply because they're the most successful retailer out there per square foot.
344
00:22:53,329 --> 00:22:55,340
No one sells as much as Apple per square foot.
345
00:22:55,340 --> 00:22:56,761
At least they didn't.
346
00:22:57,041 --> 00:23:00,222
They have the fewest products you would expect to have in a store.
347
00:23:00,343 --> 00:23:02,884
And it's just like go and look, right?
348
00:23:02,884 --> 00:23:08,046
Go and see what is going on there and figure out how you do that online.
349
00:23:08,587 --> 00:23:09,535
Because it's...
350
00:23:09,535 --> 00:23:11,011
Well, they do it online.
351
00:23:11,011 --> 00:23:14,818
Yeah, And they're magical with it in many ways, right?
352
00:23:16,001 --> 00:23:18,766
I think it's a really interesting success story.
353
00:23:19,749 --> 00:23:21,271
How do you do it?
354
00:23:23,365 --> 00:23:32,085
uh I think there's a lot of things, if we draw back to, um if we draw back to what, let's
go with Apple.
355
00:23:32,085 --> 00:23:33,696
What did they do well?
356
00:23:34,237 --> 00:23:37,460
Do you know what their product from what I hear.
357
00:23:37,706 --> 00:23:45,691
the Google products and Android products can actually supersede Apple, but they've built
that the cult status.
358
00:23:45,692 --> 00:23:52,867
to be fair, once I change and I can copy and paste between phones and iPads and things,
that was my saving grace.
359
00:23:52,867 --> 00:23:54,378
I will never go back.
360
00:23:55,018 --> 00:23:57,720
And it's amazing how many people don't know how to do that.
361
00:23:58,281 --> 00:24:04,124
But if we take away, so one, think they have the cult status and they've done that through
362
00:24:04,655 --> 00:24:09,246
things like pre-selling and like really building up the hype.
363
00:24:09,287 --> 00:24:11,627
But the reality is it's sexy.
364
00:24:11,627 --> 00:24:15,488
Like they made something very boring, very sexy.
365
00:24:15,488 --> 00:24:20,810
Whereas if I go to Google, they've made their phones fun.
366
00:24:21,710 --> 00:24:28,472
And I think that if we look at them, they're very different brands and they attract very
different people.
367
00:24:28,793 --> 00:24:29,713
But...
368
00:24:29,753 --> 00:24:41,822
there is an exclusivity that comes with Apple products and the people who buy them want
other people to think that they're cool and I have the good stuff.
369
00:24:41,882 --> 00:24:55,793
And when it comes back to translating that online and the unethicalness, uh I would say
that what Apple have done well,
370
00:24:56,333 --> 00:24:59,254
is have their team buy into the vision.
371
00:24:59,254 --> 00:25:04,096
I don't even know what Apple's vision is, but what they've bought into is the brand.
372
00:25:04,717 --> 00:25:13,701
And if you can build that, you won't ever lose employees and they won't question.
373
00:25:13,893 --> 00:25:21,605
I think the problem becomes when the, you hire people for the sake of hiring people.
374
00:25:22,659 --> 00:25:24,660
And you can fix this in the hiring process.
375
00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:27,293
And this is something I accidentally did very, very well.
376
00:25:27,293 --> 00:25:29,015
Like I didn't know it at the time.
377
00:25:29,015 --> 00:25:31,377
I've been doing it for 20 years and I still do it.
378
00:25:31,377 --> 00:25:41,826
I still tell my people to do it now, which is when I write a job description, I very
rarely write it for the job.
379
00:25:41,826 --> 00:25:44,067
I write it for the culture.
380
00:25:44,488 --> 00:25:50,112
And I think there is a point in business where you can...
381
00:25:50,816 --> 00:25:56,530
train someone to do anything versus when you have to have the expertise.
382
00:25:56,530 --> 00:26:02,234
And you will hit that usually around seven figures where you have to, you know, you can
just train Sarah.
383
00:26:02,234 --> 00:26:08,218
She's gone from, you know, uploading products to now she's the e-commerce manager because
she's just got the experience.
384
00:26:08,218 --> 00:26:13,381
But that gets a point where you need expertise.
385
00:26:14,305 --> 00:26:27,279
regardless of which one of those stages you're at, if you're not really clear about where
your business is heading and how customers value you and how you're going to turn up, it
386
00:26:27,279 --> 00:26:29,970
is really difficult to get people to buy into that.
387
00:26:29,970 --> 00:26:40,973
So I know that even to this day, I start my, I do a group interview to begin with, and
even in store and online, I do a group interview and I start that with,
388
00:26:41,157 --> 00:26:44,097
talking about the business, but not talking about the business.
389
00:26:44,097 --> 00:26:51,677
So what I'll do is I'll be like, our customers are these kinds of people and what we love
about them is this.
390
00:26:51,677 --> 00:26:59,097
we're on a mission, you know, our, our, our mission in our company is we create solutions
that make money for your store.
391
00:26:59,097 --> 00:27:03,977
And so if you're not okay with that, this is not the place for you.
392
00:27:03,977 --> 00:27:11,237
Like if you're not okay with helping people make money and become rich in whatever way
that looks like for them.
393
00:27:11,287 --> 00:27:12,998
this is not the place for you.
394
00:27:12,998 --> 00:27:27,364
And I have run into this problem before where as the business grew, our business manager
hit that point where she could not think to the next level.
395
00:27:28,365 --> 00:27:36,688
And she was just stuck in the, like, I can't fathom what this business would look like at
20 million, 30 million, $40 million.
396
00:27:36,688 --> 00:27:38,586
And that's okay.
397
00:27:38,586 --> 00:27:42,989
because who got you here won't get you there and what got you here won't get you there.
398
00:27:42,989 --> 00:27:49,673
And so coming back to that conversation of how do you make sure that your team are on
board?
399
00:27:50,214 --> 00:27:51,535
This is a leadership thing.
400
00:27:51,535 --> 00:27:53,206
It's not even a hiring decision.
401
00:27:53,206 --> 00:27:56,718
is you as the founder, as the owner.
402
00:27:56,758 --> 00:28:02,822
If you don't even know where you're going, then how the heck do you get someone else to
buy into that?
403
00:28:02,922 --> 00:28:07,095
If you are so busy working in your business and
404
00:28:07,095 --> 00:28:17,368
Micro-managing, I always say that, you you could always tell the businesses that are stuck
because the owner needs to know everything, everything about everything.
405
00:28:17,748 --> 00:28:22,009
But if you need to be that person, you won't get to $20 million.
406
00:28:22,009 --> 00:28:31,732
You might get to 10, but you won't get past that because your business cannot be capped at
how smart you are.
407
00:28:32,172 --> 00:28:36,133
And I will always say, I've literally just hired a new marketing manager.
408
00:28:36,425 --> 00:28:42,998
And I said, you're saying things I don't know, which is great because you can't be as
smart as me.
409
00:28:42,998 --> 00:28:49,170
You have to be smarter than me because if this whole business is only as smart as me,
we're screwed.
410
00:28:50,491 --> 00:28:54,073
I can't be smart in every single area of the business.
411
00:28:54,073 --> 00:28:56,204
I just need to be smart in this part of the business.
412
00:28:56,204 --> 00:29:01,296
You guys all need to be smarter than me and you need to come back and tell me what we need
to do and I will make a decision.
413
00:29:01,356 --> 00:29:04,377
And so all of that comes back to
414
00:29:05,667 --> 00:29:08,258
Sometimes I'm just again, sidebarring.
415
00:29:08,278 --> 00:29:12,039
My brain goes in like 700 different circles.
416
00:29:13,199 --> 00:29:21,681
But there is a point when you grow where what you wanted has now changed and that is okay.
417
00:29:22,042 --> 00:29:31,124
And when you start making good money, I think it can become a difficult thing to go, but
why do I need to make more money?
418
00:29:31,124 --> 00:29:33,164
And here's my answer to that.
419
00:29:33,865 --> 00:29:35,095
If you make
420
00:29:35,269 --> 00:29:37,669
$100 million this year.
421
00:29:38,309 --> 00:29:41,669
One, on a personal level, you have choices.
422
00:29:41,669 --> 00:29:45,869
You don't have to decide, do I get medicine or not?
423
00:29:45,869 --> 00:29:47,129
Do I get surgery or not?
424
00:29:47,129 --> 00:29:49,089
Do my kids go to the best school or not?
425
00:29:49,089 --> 00:29:50,949
So one, money gives us choices.
426
00:29:51,549 --> 00:29:54,949
Two, you get to choose what to do with that money.
427
00:29:55,209 --> 00:30:04,349
And every time you buy something, whether that is a Lamborghini or that is a bottle of
Coke or that is a $12,000 cocktail,
428
00:30:04,869 --> 00:30:09,929
Think about all those people that you're supporting by doing that.
429
00:30:10,029 --> 00:30:12,988
So you've got, you know, let's go with the $12,000 cocktail.
430
00:30:12,988 --> 00:30:18,769
You've got the waitress, you've got all of the bar staff, you've got the supplier who
brought in the cocktails.
431
00:30:18,769 --> 00:30:25,289
Yes, you've got the massive conglomerate who owned the Savoy, but all of those people work
as well and all those people get paid.
432
00:30:25,289 --> 00:30:30,129
And so I came from a very, very, very poor background.
433
00:30:30,129 --> 00:30:34,431
And this is how I have resolved that is okay making money is that
434
00:30:34,431 --> 00:30:36,322
every time I spend money.
435
00:30:36,322 --> 00:30:44,205
And you know what, even if I don't spend it, if it sits in the bank and makes money, then
all those banking, well, there's not many banking employees anymore, but there are a few
436
00:30:44,205 --> 00:30:48,026
banking employees who have jobs as a result of that.
437
00:30:48,667 --> 00:30:55,180
And so that is how I've resolved, because I grew up with money, rich people are horrible
and rich people are greedy.
438
00:30:55,180 --> 00:31:00,452
And I think the media portrays that as well, which is especially for women, maybe it's
different for men.
439
00:31:00,452 --> 00:31:03,683
But when you think about any movie you've ever watched,
440
00:31:03,683 --> 00:31:17,028
the female CEO or executive, she's either a bitch, sorry if I can't beep, she's not very
nice person, or she's doing this at the expense of her family, or she's doing this at the
441
00:31:17,028 --> 00:31:18,559
expense of herself.
442
00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:22,571
And it's funny that men are not always portrayed like that.
443
00:31:22,571 --> 00:31:24,091
So I'm just taking from my bias.
444
00:31:24,091 --> 00:31:33,487
And what I have discovered is it doesn't need to be like that, but the more money you
make, the more you have the ability to make the world the way that you might want it.
445
00:31:33,487 --> 00:31:34,379
to be.
446
00:31:34,385 --> 00:31:35,811
And that's your choice.
447
00:31:36,459 --> 00:31:37,660
really interesting point, isn't it?
448
00:31:37,660 --> 00:31:46,785
Because I think uh people want to make a fewer if you're in business, you want to make
money, even if it's to fund your mission.
449
00:31:46,785 --> 00:31:50,627
And I think, I think conversations about wealth are quite fascinating.
450
00:31:50,627 --> 00:31:55,069
You know, we were talking about wealth earlier on, like how you build wealth with us with
a group of guys.
451
00:31:55,069 --> 00:31:59,181
um Stay talking about building wealth and you kind of like
452
00:32:02,975 --> 00:32:05,756
Money without mission, I think is a waste of time.
453
00:32:06,256 --> 00:32:12,079
I think the people that struggle the most with wealth have no mission for their money,
whatever that mission is.
454
00:32:13,199 --> 00:32:22,873
And, you know, I've, I've, I've been fortunate enough to know some of the wealthiest
people on the planet, you know, and I've been on their private jets.
455
00:32:22,873 --> 00:32:31,647
So I could tell you all kinds of stories, which I won't bore you with right now, but most
of them are like, I wish.
456
00:32:32,352 --> 00:32:34,102
Most of them are unhappy.
457
00:32:35,103 --> 00:32:38,573
And they get their self-esteem from work, right?
458
00:32:38,573 --> 00:32:40,984
So they're not getting it at home from their family.
459
00:32:40,984 --> 00:32:43,634
So they pour themselves into work because they've made more money at work.
460
00:32:43,634 --> 00:32:45,043
So therefore they can feel better about themselves.
461
00:32:45,043 --> 00:32:47,005
At least they're successful here.
462
00:32:47,285 --> 00:32:50,375
And so I think you're right.
463
00:32:50,375 --> 00:32:51,606
I think you have to wrestle with this.
464
00:32:51,606 --> 00:32:52,386
What's the mission?
465
00:32:52,386 --> 00:32:54,146
What is success to me?
466
00:32:55,006 --> 00:32:56,806
What does that look like?
467
00:32:57,147 --> 00:32:59,617
Because hopefully you're going to get there.
468
00:33:00,291 --> 00:33:17,355
Yeah, and if you know, and if you, sorry to cut in, but if you know that, how much easier
is it to get people on board and get them to buy in rather than this is a job and you get
469
00:33:17,355 --> 00:33:20,377
paid and they're just waiting for somebody else to pay them more.
470
00:33:21,258 --> 00:33:25,061
And I think that that is what I accidentally did well.
471
00:33:25,070 --> 00:33:25,621
Yeah.
472
00:33:25,621 --> 00:33:31,723
I was so invested in what we were doing to change.
473
00:33:31,763 --> 00:33:34,484
As I said, this was before eco was a thing.
474
00:33:34,644 --> 00:33:39,166
I came from a background, well, I came from a job in sustainability.
475
00:33:39,166 --> 00:33:40,556
I was passionate about the planet.
476
00:33:40,556 --> 00:33:47,328
I was passionate about my kid's skin and what she was going to grow up like and where the
world was going to be.
477
00:33:49,623 --> 00:33:56,196
If you know that and you can express it, you will bring the people in who want to be part
of that.
478
00:33:56,797 --> 00:34:05,102
And I think that if we bring it all back full circle, think that Apple does that well,
whether it's the mission or whether it is the cult status, what they've done is put a
479
00:34:05,102 --> 00:34:10,484
group of people together who love the product so much.
480
00:34:10,485 --> 00:34:18,191
And you know that, like you said, every time you go into an Apple store, they know the
product inside out, that they're going to fix.
481
00:34:18,191 --> 00:34:22,111
granddad's problem and then they're going to fix my problem completely differently.
482
00:34:24,141 --> 00:34:32,569
It's so much easier to get people to stay and to help and to over deliver.
483
00:34:32,569 --> 00:34:34,951
And if someone over delivers, you can charge more.
484
00:34:35,732 --> 00:34:37,072
If they're bought in.
485
00:34:38,144 --> 00:34:39,024
That's so true.
486
00:34:39,024 --> 00:34:51,546
And I think they buy into, if you're the leader, if it's your company, my experience is
they, I've never had a member of staff sit down and interview with me, know, potential
487
00:34:51,546 --> 00:34:55,490
member of staff sit down and interview with me, Selena and go, how do I make you more
money, Matt?
488
00:34:55,490 --> 00:34:58,943
I'm really, my whole life's goal is to make you richer, right?
489
00:34:58,943 --> 00:35:01,605
It just, that's never ever happened.
490
00:35:02,466 --> 00:35:04,067
And I understand why.
491
00:35:04,459 --> 00:35:08,255
And because I don't think anybody that works for me, ultimately, I don't think their goal
is to make me richer.
492
00:35:08,255 --> 00:35:14,316
I think they'd like the consequence of my wealth growing because they do better, right?
493
00:35:14,316 --> 00:35:19,403
It's always better to be involved in a company that's growing, that's dynamic and good
things are going on.
494
00:35:21,359 --> 00:35:31,556
So they have got to buy into it and it's got to be, I think what they buy into, like,
don't think many people at Apple buy into making Tim Cook richer.
495
00:35:31,556 --> 00:35:38,591
I don't buy an iPhone to think, there you go, Tim, have that one on, that pints on me,
right?
496
00:35:38,591 --> 00:35:39,382
Doesn't happen.
497
00:35:39,382 --> 00:35:41,633
I could care less in many ways.
498
00:35:43,875 --> 00:35:45,947
But like you say, they're bought into the brand.
499
00:35:45,947 --> 00:35:49,519
They're bought into the story and they're bought into the mission of the company.
500
00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:53,439
And if the company makes a shed load of money, well, that's a consequence of the mission.
501
00:35:53,759 --> 00:35:56,519
That's a consequence of the vision being fulfilled.
502
00:35:56,939 --> 00:36:05,578
And so you hear of companies like Patagonia doing really well because they just people
just love their story and it's so unusual.
503
00:36:05,578 --> 00:36:08,179
The whole guy just gives his company back to the planet.
504
00:36:08,179 --> 00:36:09,079
I mean, how does that work?
505
00:36:09,079 --> 00:36:12,093
I don't know, but everyone loves it.
506
00:36:12,093 --> 00:36:14,076
Patagonia Patagucci.
507
00:36:15,623 --> 00:36:17,464
That's a good name.
508
00:36:17,464 --> 00:36:20,205
Yeah, they should trademark that.
509
00:36:20,205 --> 00:36:21,666
They should definitely trademark that.
510
00:36:21,666 --> 00:36:22,646
But no, I think you're right.
511
00:36:22,646 --> 00:36:24,887
think, I think money has to have a mission.
512
00:36:24,887 --> 00:36:30,189
People like to be involved in something which is bigger than themselves.
513
00:36:30,243 --> 00:36:37,722
Um, that has a mission, whether that's helping the planet, whether that's helping their
kids, whether that's whatever it is, there has to be a reason for them to be involved.
514
00:36:37,722 --> 00:36:40,384
They got to feel like a member of a tribe, a community.
515
00:36:40,384 --> 00:36:44,135
Um, and I think if you can do those things.
516
00:36:45,871 --> 00:36:48,531
you'll ultimately do well.
517
00:36:48,711 --> 00:37:01,651
The people that lose I think in the end are the people that are just no no no I'm not
gonna I'm not gonna have that on over there because it will save ten bucks and that ten
518
00:37:01,651 --> 00:37:03,571
bucks I want in my pocket.
519
00:37:03,571 --> 00:37:03,951
Do know what mean?
520
00:37:03,951 --> 00:37:07,677
It's like I think people feel things like that.
521
00:37:07,677 --> 00:37:09,118
I think they do too.
522
00:37:09,118 --> 00:37:26,197
I, what I would say there is when it comes to, if it, when it comes to you as the owner,
as the founder, you said many, many rich people are not happy and coming out of 2025, I
523
00:37:26,197 --> 00:37:30,369
can tell you that many retailers aren't happy now either.
524
00:37:30,659 --> 00:37:38,997
And I think that happens when we fall back into all of the doing and we lose sight of that
bigger picture.
525
00:37:38,997 --> 00:37:43,560
And so maybe this conversation is you just thinking, why do I do this?
526
00:37:43,621 --> 00:37:51,628
And if the answer is so that I can have a million dollars in the bank and I feel secure
and I can send my kids to a good school, well, that's fine.
527
00:37:52,009 --> 00:37:56,072
But know that that may not be the same thing that your team buy into.
528
00:37:57,153 --> 00:38:00,833
And if that's where you want to go, that's where you want to go.
529
00:38:00,833 --> 00:38:06,943
But I'm guessing that even if you want those things, the reason you did this was something
else.
530
00:38:06,943 --> 00:38:13,189
I just know that most of the people that I work with love their product or they love their
customer or they love their niche.
531
00:38:13,189 --> 00:38:14,891
I would love to know about Norm though.
532
00:38:14,891 --> 00:38:16,692
Like, why does he do it?
533
00:38:17,763 --> 00:38:20,135
He, that would be a question for him.
534
00:38:20,135 --> 00:38:22,367
mean, from what I know of Norm, he's a great guy.
535
00:38:22,367 --> 00:38:23,788
I've been on his show a couple of times.
536
00:38:23,788 --> 00:38:25,989
He's been on this one a couple of times.
537
00:38:26,150 --> 00:38:32,345
I think he loves the hustle of it and, the people around him are like, yeah, you know,
this is, this is kind of cool.
538
00:38:32,345 --> 00:38:41,063
It's got that kind of hustle vibe about it and it's dynamic and they're growing and
they're, making stuff work over here and they can experiment and they can do all these
539
00:38:41,063 --> 00:38:42,584
kinds of different things.
540
00:38:42,744 --> 00:38:44,986
And they've got the capacity to do that.
541
00:38:46,691 --> 00:38:52,781
Whereas I think if Norm just sold the same knives in the cardboard box, they wouldn't have
the capacity to do that because then it's just a volume game, isn't it?
542
00:38:52,781 --> 00:38:58,539
It's just like, I've just got to sell the same thing 10,000 times to, you know, buy a Mars
bar or something.
543
00:38:58,539 --> 00:38:59,639
And so...
544
00:39:01,825 --> 00:39:03,657
I think people like that.
545
00:39:03,657 --> 00:39:06,915
think I'm curious to know why he is in it though.
546
00:39:06,915 --> 00:39:08,922
I mean, Norm must love people.
547
00:39:08,922 --> 00:39:11,503
I hope there'll be something in that.
548
00:39:11,503 --> 00:39:22,240
But what I think you have highlighted there is what I took away from that conversation,
whether you meant it or not, was your dream doesn't have to be this great big thing.
549
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:26,923
Your vision could just be, I like wanna find better ways to do stuff.
550
00:39:26,923 --> 00:39:35,853
And if we're talking about that example, it's kind of like their culture from what you're
telling me would be like.
551
00:39:36,229 --> 00:39:38,409
almost like testing and measuring.
552
00:39:38,709 --> 00:39:40,409
So, you know, it's this constant test.
553
00:39:40,409 --> 00:39:41,669
It's constant A-B test.
554
00:39:41,669 --> 00:39:42,909
What's this knife worth?
555
00:39:42,909 --> 00:39:46,569
What if we stick it in an aluminium box?
556
00:39:46,569 --> 00:39:52,249
What would happen versus a wooden box versus a, I don't know, a stainless steel box?
557
00:39:52,409 --> 00:39:56,269
And that curiosity, so what they're fostering there is curiosity.
558
00:39:56,269 --> 00:40:06,209
Curiosity and, you you said hustle, but I'm thinking it's, you curiosity and innovation
and the success that comes with testing.
559
00:40:06,344 --> 00:40:08,307
yeah, experimentation is that
560
00:40:08,307 --> 00:40:08,991
That's a good word.
561
00:40:08,991 --> 00:40:10,134
Thank you very much.
562
00:40:10,479 --> 00:40:14,607
Yeah, and there are some people that are just thriving that they just learn.
563
00:40:14,607 --> 00:40:23,111
And those people are probably not going to be great people at the Apple Store, because the
Apple Store is, I'm going to say it's formulaic in the sense that this is our product and
564
00:40:23,111 --> 00:40:24,312
we solve this problem.
565
00:40:24,312 --> 00:40:36,398
Whereas that is a completely different environment to where you get to, you you get to
take risks and you get to think about things that it's outside of the box or inside of the
566
00:40:36,398 --> 00:40:37,768
box, whichever way you want to put it.
567
00:40:37,768 --> 00:40:39,785
um
568
00:40:39,785 --> 00:40:41,957
And you're going to attract different people.
569
00:40:41,957 --> 00:40:50,852
And so I can imagine without knowing Norm, something along those lines is when he's
hiring, it's kind of like, hey, if you're the kind of person who, you know, used to stick
570
00:40:50,852 --> 00:40:54,855
forks in electrical outlets to see if you would get electrocuted, this is the job for you.
571
00:40:56,856 --> 00:40:58,044
Please don't do that.
572
00:40:58,044 --> 00:41:01,816
every, every young boy goes and applies for the job because we've all done it.
573
00:41:01,816 --> 00:41:05,909
That's great.
574
00:41:05,909 --> 00:41:06,670
Great.
575
00:41:06,670 --> 00:41:07,980
It's no, it's fascinating.
576
00:41:07,980 --> 00:41:11,363
Um, what you say, Selena and I, and I love it.
577
00:41:11,363 --> 00:41:16,426
think it's, it's, I don't know where you are listener in terms of your e-comm journey,
right?
578
00:41:16,426 --> 00:41:17,577
I don't know you're just starting out.
579
00:41:17,577 --> 00:41:19,638
I don't know why you're doing what you're doing.
580
00:41:19,638 --> 00:41:21,419
I don't know if you're years into it.
581
00:41:23,267 --> 00:41:30,450
But I think it's good to tap into the reason why you're doing it and to articulate that
and to remind yourself of why you're doing it.
582
00:41:31,651 --> 00:41:34,371
To remind yourself of what it is you're trying to build.
583
00:41:35,132 --> 00:41:38,193
And to also remember why your team are doing this.
584
00:41:38,333 --> 00:41:44,196
Because like you say, Celine, don't, those two aren't always the same thing.
585
00:41:44,196 --> 00:41:48,477
But there has to be some congruency if you're to keep people long term.
586
00:41:50,438 --> 00:41:52,439
And to think about that.
587
00:41:52,845 --> 00:42:02,404
And I was always told in leadership school that how do you know when you've talked about
the vision enough in your company?
588
00:42:03,375 --> 00:42:12,074
I think the answer was well, when you're absolutely sick and tired of talking about it,
because you feel like you've done nothing but talk about it all the time, then you're
589
00:42:12,074 --> 00:42:14,757
probably just about starting to talk about it enough.
590
00:42:17,380 --> 00:42:28,432
My answer to that, I agree with that, but my answer would always be if you have the kind
of people who come in early and stay late and don't expect to get paid for it, I'm not
591
00:42:28,432 --> 00:42:35,917
advocating don't pay your team, but if they are, if they want to go the extra mile, I
think you've done a really good job.
592
00:42:35,917 --> 00:42:36,588
Yeah.
593
00:42:36,588 --> 00:42:39,329
Finding those people is like finding unicorns teeth.
594
00:42:40,830 --> 00:42:42,167
Really is.
595
00:42:43,732 --> 00:42:44,232
Yeah.
596
00:42:44,232 --> 00:42:46,014
It's it's remarkable.
597
00:42:46,014 --> 00:42:53,679
I think one of the biggest frustrations a lot of people have when it comes to hiring
people, and maybe you've seen this as well, Selina, but it's certainly the people that I
598
00:42:53,679 --> 00:42:57,280
talk to is the people that they hire don't think like them.
599
00:42:57,481 --> 00:43:00,983
Now they're not going to do that because they're not the founder.
600
00:43:01,359 --> 00:43:05,239
But founders and entrepreneurs think everybody should think like a founder and an
entrepreneur.
601
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:05,699
What do you mean?
602
00:43:05,699 --> 00:43:08,479
We're just going to work a 12 hour day here to solve this problem.
603
00:43:08,479 --> 00:43:09,059
What's wrong with you?
604
00:43:09,059 --> 00:43:10,039
Just get on it.
605
00:43:10,099 --> 00:43:12,339
I don't care if you've got a family.
606
00:43:12,339 --> 00:43:14,039
What's wrong with where's your commitment?
607
00:43:14,039 --> 00:43:22,479
And there's a frustration which builds inside everybody when people don't think about the
business the same way that you or I maybe would think.
608
00:43:24,592 --> 00:43:27,923
Can I, are you saying more or can I talk to that?
609
00:43:28,304 --> 00:43:28,654
Okay.
610
00:43:28,654 --> 00:43:38,149
I'm just, terrible at cutting people off because you know, let's be honest, most business
owners have ADHD of some, or are on the spectrum of some, which is why we're doing exactly
611
00:43:38,149 --> 00:43:39,370
what you just said.
612
00:43:39,730 --> 00:43:44,973
We're thinking about a million things where we can process a million different things.
613
00:43:44,973 --> 00:43:53,417
And I think we forget that neurotypical people don't work like that.
614
00:43:54,632 --> 00:43:56,373
And we need those people.
615
00:43:56,373 --> 00:44:00,015
We need those people to be focused on one thing and get that thing done.
616
00:44:00,015 --> 00:44:02,496
And yes, it's annoying and yes, it's frustrating.
617
00:44:02,496 --> 00:44:10,740
But I've been through quite a bit of hiring through 2025 and I worked with Gary V's
organizational psychologist.
618
00:44:10,872 --> 00:44:12,381
It's a of a name drop.
619
00:44:12,661 --> 00:44:24,027
And one of the things that she said to me was that even though I thought I had written
these position descriptions quite well,
620
00:44:24,985 --> 00:44:26,235
that I hadn't.
621
00:44:26,536 --> 00:44:32,897
And so one of the things she made me do was write down everything that annoys me.
622
00:44:33,518 --> 00:44:34,698
Everything.
623
00:44:35,238 --> 00:44:36,939
It's a really long list.
624
00:44:36,939 --> 00:44:44,521
It started off with people who talk slow, people who walk slow, people who send me very
long emails instead of dot points.
625
00:44:44,521 --> 00:44:49,262
And I just, I just kept adding to that list, adding to that list.
626
00:44:50,022 --> 00:44:51,783
It was, and then...
627
00:44:52,537 --> 00:44:57,328
When you ask people what they want, they can't usually tell you, but they can tell you
what they don't want.
628
00:44:57,909 --> 00:45:07,592
And so what I will say is if you have a direct report, you need to be honest with yourself
about what frustrates you.
629
00:45:07,832 --> 00:45:13,194
And of those things, which one is the one that your business actually needs?
630
00:45:13,194 --> 00:45:16,595
And even if it frustrates you, you're just going to have to put up with it.
631
00:45:16,741 --> 00:45:26,176
Because there were some things that I wrote down that I realized that like an operations
manager, an operations manager, if you ever do Enneagram, it's going to be a one.
632
00:45:26,176 --> 00:45:30,118
Like they are process driven, that everything has to be data.
633
00:45:30,378 --> 00:45:32,139
And you need that.
634
00:45:32,964 --> 00:45:40,773
Any business owner needs one of those people and they will frustrate the hell out of you
because they want all the information.
635
00:45:40,773 --> 00:45:43,495
like, told you, I told this to you.
636
00:45:43,504 --> 00:45:47,240
At least I thought I mentioned it in my brain and you couldn't read that.
637
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:50,303
And so there are a few things there.
638
00:45:50,464 --> 00:45:54,758
If we break that down, which is one, I think a direct report.
639
00:45:55,304 --> 00:46:05,944
you need to understand how you communicate and the things that frustrate you, but also the
things that you need to make a concession on and just deal with.
640
00:46:06,304 --> 00:46:11,624
The second one would be for your, I mentioned before, have donkeys and unicorns.
641
00:46:11,624 --> 00:46:13,964
So unicorns are the thinking people.
642
00:46:14,604 --> 00:46:16,204
Donkeys are doers.
643
00:46:16,544 --> 00:46:18,724
You need donkeys in your business.
644
00:46:18,724 --> 00:46:20,224
Like your bookkeeper.
645
00:46:20,473 --> 00:46:22,304
These are just do the job, right?
646
00:46:22,304 --> 00:46:24,144
The job is not to think of great ideas.
647
00:46:24,144 --> 00:46:25,804
It's just to get the numbers done.
648
00:46:25,945 --> 00:46:35,707
And so understanding that as well, that when you're breaking down these roles, what do you
realistically need this person to do?
649
00:46:35,707 --> 00:46:38,668
Not necessarily want, but I'm with you.
650
00:46:38,668 --> 00:46:45,810
Like my operations manager was so frustrated because we tried to hire for four months in a
CRM role.
651
00:46:45,810 --> 00:46:48,043
And she's like, can we not just hire somebody?
652
00:46:48,043 --> 00:46:48,927
I'm like,
653
00:46:48,927 --> 00:46:57,271
No, because we need someone who will think I need someone who goes, Oh, this doesn't work
like, like you want it to do this, it doesn't do that.
654
00:46:57,271 --> 00:46:59,032
So here's the solution.
655
00:46:59,032 --> 00:47:02,113
It's not my job to know how the CRM works.
656
00:47:02,854 --> 00:47:10,827
And she would get we go through round after six into six people on an interview, six
people on an interview six people and she's like, you have to hire someone soon.
657
00:47:10,827 --> 00:47:14,063
And I'm like, what and what you just get frustrated.
658
00:47:14,063 --> 00:47:15,975
because that person can't think for themselves.
659
00:47:15,975 --> 00:47:23,130
And then we've spent all this time building something that doesn't work because that
person just wants to tick tasks off an Asana project.
660
00:47:23,743 --> 00:47:25,232
And we finally found somebody.
661
00:47:25,232 --> 00:47:26,083
It takes time.
662
00:47:26,083 --> 00:47:32,318
And again, this is where it comes back to, you've got to have the patience, but you've got
to be really clear about who it is you want.
663
00:47:32,919 --> 00:47:43,058
But sometimes you just need people, like sometimes you do just need a body, but you the
guy who's packing your pallets, maybe he doesn't need to be thinking outside the box.
664
00:47:43,058 --> 00:47:55,461
But I will put, will hands down, hand on heart say that your sales associates or the
person who is answering the chat on your e-commerce site needs to know what they're
665
00:47:55,461 --> 00:47:56,531
talking about.
666
00:47:57,111 --> 00:48:04,553
Because you and I both know that you get on that chat and it's in some offshore agency and
they go, please call back, please call the store between nine and four.
667
00:48:04,553 --> 00:48:07,214
And you're like, well, you just wasted my time.
668
00:48:07,874 --> 00:48:09,514
Now I'm angry.
669
00:48:09,654 --> 00:48:12,495
What was this live chat even, what were you even here for?
670
00:48:14,927 --> 00:48:17,107
So this is where I AI.
671
00:48:20,084 --> 00:48:22,434
I'm with you.
672
00:48:22,434 --> 00:48:24,144
The worst thing you can do is make customer angry.
673
00:48:24,144 --> 00:48:25,785
It's like, why would you want to do that?
674
00:48:25,785 --> 00:48:28,366
Why would you provoke that?
675
00:48:28,366 --> 00:48:30,947
It makes no sense to me at all.
676
00:48:30,947 --> 00:48:35,528
Selena, listen, I'm engrossed in the conversation.
677
00:48:35,528 --> 00:48:39,229
I feel like we're just scratching the tip of the iceberg, but I'm also aware of time.
678
00:48:39,229 --> 00:48:45,141
uh And so if people want to reach you, if they want to find out more about you, get in
touch.
679
00:48:45,141 --> 00:48:46,761
What's the best way to do that?
680
00:48:47,533 --> 00:48:52,245
you can find me on the bringing business to retail podcast or on all of the socials.
681
00:48:52,245 --> 00:48:55,646
am the Selena night and selenonight.com.
682
00:48:55,646 --> 00:49:00,137
You can find me there and come and hang out with me and listen to me on my soap box.
683
00:49:00,137 --> 00:49:01,457
I do tend to get on my soap box.
684
00:49:01,457 --> 00:49:03,588
Thank you for allowing me to do that.
685
00:49:03,588 --> 00:49:10,170
And I feel like I, I, I, I took the conversation away for you to do your little like
sidebar.
686
00:49:10,170 --> 00:49:14,111
Remember to do that after we've recorded of go and sign up.
687
00:49:14,319 --> 00:49:14,440
yeah.
688
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,021
Yeah, no problem.
689
00:49:17,864 --> 00:49:18,844
That's great.
690
00:49:18,844 --> 00:49:27,712
Now, we will of course put all the links to Selena in the show notes, which you can get
along for free with the transcript at the website, ecommercepodcast.net.
691
00:49:27,712 --> 00:49:35,118
And of course, if you haven't subscribed to the newsletter, make sure you do you can do
that at the same website, ecommercepodcast.net and all of these things will wang their way
692
00:49:35,118 --> 00:49:38,550
straight to your inbox every week without any drama.
693
00:49:38,550 --> 00:49:41,827
So you'll just get them all automatically, which is a beautiful thing.
694
00:49:41,827 --> 00:49:44,501
Selina, thank you so much for coming on the show.
695
00:49:44,501 --> 00:49:50,580
Genuinely loved the conversation and getting carried away with it and going down all these
little side streets.
696
00:49:50,742 --> 00:49:52,685
Love those kinds of conversations.
697
00:49:52,726 --> 00:49:56,391
It's been an absolute joy and privilege to just chat and hang out with you.
698
00:49:56,828 --> 00:49:58,349
Thank you, thank you.
699
00:49:58,588 --> 00:50:01,470
I have one last question for you if that's okay.
700
00:50:03,752 --> 00:50:05,893
We finished up, but I had a conversation that I wrote down.
701
00:50:05,893 --> 00:50:13,718
We kind of talked about it, but not, I would love really um answers that you can put into
action.
702
00:50:13,718 --> 00:50:18,521
So, and answers that you can put into action in a reasonably short period of time, if
that's okay.
703
00:50:19,442 --> 00:50:21,242
So how do you...
704
00:50:22,247 --> 00:50:29,391
I'm going to say deal, but I don't mean, how do you manage a key leadership person on your
team?
705
00:50:29,391 --> 00:50:38,695
So maybe that's a store manager or e-commerce manager who struggles with pricing.
706
00:50:38,799 --> 00:50:40,280
when you are a premium brand.
707
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:46,062
So we kind of talked about this in terms of vision and whatnot, but I would love some real
life advice.
708
00:50:46,062 --> 00:50:50,744
So yes, go back and understand what your vision is and communicate that to the team.
709
00:50:50,744 --> 00:51:01,738
But if you are a premium store with your average order value is $250 and your e-comm
manager or whoever is managing your inventory, every time a shipment comes in, they're
710
00:51:01,738 --> 00:51:08,671
like, look, cost of goods have gone up and like, I think we should just keep the price the
same though.
711
00:51:09,189 --> 00:51:19,312
because they come from, like me, a background where money was tight and they don't
understand that people will pay for those things.
712
00:51:19,312 --> 00:51:22,363
And clearly they do because the business is in business and doing really well.
713
00:51:22,363 --> 00:51:33,006
But I would love to know some really actionable tips of how the founder could, this is
obviously a real life scenario, how the founder can address this.
714
00:51:33,766 --> 00:51:35,487
Is that okay for me to ask?
715
00:51:35,833 --> 00:51:37,344
That's entirely fine.
716
00:51:37,444 --> 00:51:39,385
I think it's a very good question.
717
00:51:39,486 --> 00:51:46,521
And I'll tell you what I'm going to do uh is we have this section called question format,
where I go and answer the questions on social media.
718
00:51:46,521 --> 00:51:49,533
So I'm going to answer that question on social media.
719
00:51:49,533 --> 00:51:54,637
I'll give you all my practical knowledge that I can possibly think of it take about 20
seconds.
720
00:51:57,539 --> 00:51:58,890
But no, will do that on social media.
721
00:51:58,890 --> 00:51:59,521
So thank you for that.
722
00:51:59,521 --> 00:52:00,111
That's good.
723
00:52:00,111 --> 00:52:01,969
Save to me the question format.
724
00:52:01,969 --> 00:52:09,754
Well, I wanted to ask it and I realized we're out of time, but if you could do that and
you could share it with your people and please tag me, I would love to hear the answers
725
00:52:09,754 --> 00:52:18,971
because I've just shared what I think, but I think like tomorrow when the founder turns up
at work, what does the conversation look like?
726
00:52:18,971 --> 00:52:23,394
Because redoing your, you know, your vision and whatnot, that's not something we do
overnight.
727
00:52:23,394 --> 00:52:31,539
But what are some real life things that this person could implement to help with that
obstacle?
728
00:52:31,673 --> 00:52:32,843
Fantastic.
729
00:52:33,104 --> 00:52:33,794
Fantastic.
730
00:52:33,794 --> 00:52:36,515
That is going to be answered shortly.
731
00:52:36,515 --> 00:52:37,475
So watch this space.
732
00:52:37,475 --> 00:52:40,526
Come follow me on LinkedIn if you want to find out how I'm going to answer that question.
733
00:52:40,526 --> 00:52:45,008
But Selena, genuinely, I feel like it's going to keep going.
734
00:52:45,008 --> 00:52:45,919
Four hours later we'll be going.
735
00:52:45,919 --> 00:52:47,529
This was a great conversation.
736
00:52:47,609 --> 00:52:48,866
But it was lovely.
737
00:52:48,866 --> 00:52:49,540
It great to meet you.
738
00:52:49,540 --> 00:52:51,311
Thank you so much for coming on.
739
00:52:51,311 --> 00:52:52,841
I really appreciate it.
740
00:52:52,977 --> 00:52:53,911
Thank you.
741
00:52:54,627 --> 00:52:55,278
Well, there you go.
742
00:52:55,278 --> 00:52:59,501
Another great conversation all wrapped up on the e-commerce podcast.
743
00:52:59,501 --> 00:53:01,432
Thank you so much for joining us this week.
744
00:53:01,432 --> 00:53:08,298
Make sure you like, follow and subscribe and do all that good stuff because we've got yet
more great conversations lined up and I don't want you to miss any of them.
745
00:53:08,298 --> 00:53:11,730
And of course, if no one's told you yet today, let me be the first.
746
00:53:11,730 --> 00:53:13,241
You are awesome.
747
00:53:13,241 --> 00:53:14,142
Yes, you are.
748
00:53:14,142 --> 00:53:15,063
Created awesome.
749
00:53:15,063 --> 00:53:17,104
It's just a burden you've got to bear.
750
00:53:17,104 --> 00:53:18,145
Selena's got to bear it.
751
00:53:18,145 --> 00:53:19,426
I've got to bear it.
752
00:53:19,426 --> 00:53:20,917
You've got to bear it as well.
753
00:53:20,975 --> 00:53:21,976
But that's it from me.
754
00:53:21,976 --> 00:53:22,917
That's it from Selena.
755
00:53:22,917 --> 00:53:24,318
Thank you so much for joining us.
756
00:53:24,318 --> 00:53:26,980
Have a great time wherever you are in the world.
757
00:53:26,980 --> 00:53:27,881
I'll see you next time.
758
00:53:27,881 --> 00:53:28,901
Bye for now.