Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host Dr. G and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today is a really special episode because as many as many of you know, I am the Director of Welfare of a primate group called For the Love of Primates. And one of the big things that, that we want people to know and be educated is on the fact that animals like these, primates, whether they're chimps or whether they're small monkeys, they just do not make good pets. So I have two amazing guests. Uh, I have Angela Scott, who has been, uh, on the program Chimp Crazy that is showing on HBO on the documentary. And I have Brittany Peet, PETA Foundation, General Counsel for Captive Animal Law Enforcement. So welcome both of you. Welcome to the junction.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having us. Yes.

Excellent. So Brittany, do you want to give us your background and what it is that, you know, brought you to working in PETA?

Sure. Um, yeah, so I'm, I'm an animal lawyer and I started with the PETA Foundation right out of law school. They have a wonderful fellowship program for new law school graduates who are interested in Animal Law, so I started 15 years ago and, and I never left. And I was inspired to get into this field by a dog that I had at the time named Wesley. And, um, I was doing some research for a paper about what pigs go through in slaughter and other animals who are used for food. And I was reading about how intelligent pigs are and how they're as smart as, or smarter than, um, than dogs. And so it, um, it really got me thinking about how intelligent my dog, Wesley, was and what, you know, what a big personality he had. And, um, and so I stopped eating meat after that and decided to, to try to pursue a career in animal law. And thankfully it worked out.

Awesome. And you work primarily with captive animal law. So what does that mean?

So, um, my team works on, um, issues relating to animals and entertainment in the United States. So we advocate on behalf of animals who are used in circuses, roadside zoos, traveling shows, and the entertainment industry in the United States.

Excellent. So Angela, how about you let our audience know who you are and why you're here?

Okay, so my name is Angela. Um, I started working with chimpanzees in 1998 and, um, a biomedical research lab. And it was then that I knew that chimpanzees and primates was what I wanted to do with my life. And from there, I was under the impression that Chimp Party and Missouri Primate Foundation was a sanctuary. So I went there with the hopes of getting chimpanzee experience and contributing to chimps, primates being in a sanctuary type setting. Unfortunately, that was not the case, and that was what got me to where I am today, uh, reaching out to PETA in 2015 to try to free the chimps that were enslaved at Missouri Primate Foundation.

So for anybody that that's not familiar with it, Chimps Crazy is this HBO documentary that is following just basically what I would consider crazy chimp people, right? Kind of like we talk about crazy cat people when there's somebody that just has too many cats, uh, to, to the point of almost like hoarding. And Chimp Crazy seems to follow the same thing, just hoarding of these incredibly intelligent animals who are just kept like prisoners. So Angela, how about you tell us the story as far as When you, when you went there, like what drove you to, to join the organization? And actually I do want to bring up, they didn't use to be an nonprofit at first, right? Weren't they like an actual, uh, can you talk about a little bit about that?

So Chimp Party was, um, a company that would, I can almost remember parts of the voicemail, if you called to get, um, to schedule an event, it was, according to Mike, an opportunity for people to get up close and personal with an endangered great ape. However, it was more like a clown at a child's party, but with a chimpanzee and that was sort of the first red flag, um, that I saw. The very first and most traumatic of, of the things that I saw were capuchins, um, and chimpanzees being darted with ketamine and having their babies taken away from them for the purpose of selling them as pets or for commercial work.

And one of the things that they mentioned on the show and it's, it is kind of like ridiculous that they don't, they don't hear it for themselves talk is they discuss about how the bond between the baby and the mom is so important, right? And from my understanding of, of monkeys in general and, and, and chimps is that they're attached to the mom for years after they're born. That's correct. Right? And then yet they're saying the bond between a baby and its mother is so important and here they are just kidnapping these babies as soon as they're born

And what they usually say to prospective buyers is that captive bred chimpanzees and primates are not good mothers, that they somehow, years of evolution is erased and maternal instincts are out the window and they have no desire to mother their infant and it's just simply not true. In the wild, chimpanzee moms carry their infants on their stomach for three to six months, sometimes up to a year, and then they ride on their back and are not weaned until about four or five. So this intimate, close, five year bond, a human being cannot replicate. It's, it, human beings, really can't facilitate the emotional, psychological or physical needs of a chimpanzee. They grow up, they reach sexual maturity. They start the puberty at around six or seven. Um, just like human beings, they have this rollercoaster of emotions and they become frustrated and rebellious and irritable and the females have mood swings just like a girl would when she would, you know, start having her cycle. It's very comparable to what human beings experience during those years. And a lot of people have absolutely no knowledge of what it takes to actually have a chimpanzee or a monkey. and have no desire to learn and it almost always ends in tragedy. I don't think it's a coincidence that both Travis and his mom Susie escaped their enclosures and were shot to death. I don't think that that's a coincidence.

Yeah, I think that it is something that people don't realize that the majority of the chimpanzees that we see on TV, the chimps that people see and say, "Oh, I want one", they're actually really, really young, yet they live a really long life, right?

Up to 50 to 60 years in captivity.

So we're seeing these, so we're seeing these, these chimps that are only like three to five years, so they're still manageable, and they're still basically children, and then once they've become adults, then everything changes, right?

Everything changes, and they have the cognitive ability of a toddler. Their IQs are between 20 and 25, but it can be as high as 50, and just like individuals, you have smarter people, you have smarter chimps. It just depends. Um, the problem is, is that you have a toddler that can lift 500 pounds and throw a refrigerator at you if they get upset, and a lot of people aren't prepared for that and part of that is because that's not a sales pitch that you would give to somebody when you're trying to sell a chimp. A baby chimp, the going rate, the last I recall was 60, 000 for a male and 65, 000 for a female. And it's important to note that Connie, uh, and Mike, we're the most prolific pet exotic chimpanzee breeders in, in this country and are responsible for more than three quarters of the population of pet chimpanzees. Put that into perspective. That's, that's, I mean, easily over a hundred. And the thing is, is that for me, the only way that I could compare it is. These chimp moms, it would be like putting a woman in a jail cell for not committing a crime, forcing her to have children every other year, tranquilizing her, taking her child from her over and over and over again. What would your psychological profile look like if that, something that traumatic had happened to you? And this is what happens to them over and over and over. And it's completely preventable. And it's very unfortunate that people don't really know the psychological impact that it has on the animal. It's, it's, they go through depression, they scream, they look for their children, they actually try to hide their babies so that they won't get darted down and have their baby removed. They don't eat, they pull out their hair, um, self injurious behaviors. And the other thing is almost every captive pet chimpanzee that I've seen, and I'm sure there are exceptions, have these atypical behaviors. Um, that wild chimpanzees don't have and it's the incessant rocking or making noises with their mouth or self harm. They injure themselves out of boredom, frustration, stress, sadness, depression, all of these things that, that we experienced, they experience too. It's just that they're not considered people. They're disposable. Like you said, it's It's very, very, very sad.

Yeah, you always hear about people that say that they want a monkey. They'll say, "no, I'm going to get it when it's really, really young so that then that way it can attach to me". And they're not taking into consideration the harm that they're causing to that baby, to the mom. The fact that, you know, It doesn't matter how much sign language we can teach them, we can not communicate with them the way that they communicate with each other. So when they start having those problems, when they go into maturity, they don't have, uh, somebody of the same species to kind of guide them and lead them through those changes that they're going and realistically they get into a fight. It's a lot different than if we were to get into a fight with them, as we have seen some serious injuries.

And a lot of people aren't thinking, you know, they think chimps are vicious and it's in the wild, chimpanzee attacks, I mean, they, they go for areas that are highly vulnerable where they can inflict the most damage and that are highly, um, accessible. So usually fingers and hands and face and, but this is something that happens in the wild. And it's important to note that the vocalizations that they have, the communication that they have is, a lot of people don't understand. I mean, we're human beings. We don't know. For example, most people smile at chimpanzees. You're never supposed to show your teeth that's considered intimidation. It's, um, it's a threat. It's actually a threat and people think that chimpanzees who are forced to smile, that they're smiling. I mean, in human behavior, a smile is welcoming. It's a sign of happiness. In chimps, it's a fear grimace, and it's a sign of stress and, and fear. Uh, it's, it's just very different, and a lot of people, they don't even want to learn. They just want to raise it like it's a human child, and, and, and that's what they do.

During the parties that they were having, from what I understand from watching the documentary, it looks like everything went okay until it didn't, right? Like what, what stopped these parties from happening?

Well, I think part of it was the law, um, and the increase, the influx of attacks on humans from chimpanzees. Susie, Travis's mom, uh, escaped with two other chimpanzees. She was an alpha female, and they got onto a neighbor's property, and unfortunately, uh, they were tranquilized. Coco and Gabby were able to get back on the truck. Unfortunately, Susie just didn't go down, um, quickly. And she was, had her back turned. She was on the edge of the road. She was playing with grass. And, there was the guy that owned the house, shot her in the back with a shotgun and then she turned around and looked at him. She was, had this confused look because she wasn't afraid of people and he shot her in the face. And, um, I mean, it was absolutely horrible. And those are the things that happen. And I think that's part of the reason that, that it stopped. And, um, You know, chimpanzees didn't have such a great reputation, um, after that, and the infamous attack with Travis, of course, was viral, and I think, um, unfortunately, I think it had to take something so tragic, um, for everyone involved to sort of get the attention that it needed, and Mike also left, um, Connie and Mike got a divorce and things changed a lot for Connie. So I think that was part of it too. And, um, she decided to go nonprofit and get a 501c3, and so chimp party was just no longer.

So on the on the documentary, when we're looking at pictures or video of Mike Casey, right, who is was the husband and part owner, his face is somewhat distorted. And that was caused by one of the chimps. Is that right?

That's correct. Bo was the first infant born, um, at Connie's facility. The father was Coco and the mother was Bridget. And Connie raised Bo like a child, just like Travis was. Um, he slept in her bed. She had a babysitter for him for when she went to work. And when Mike came onto the scene, the closest thing that I can, um, compare it to would be like having a stepfather. And Everything changed for him. He was in a cage. He didn't have access to Connie. Um, he wasn't out anymore, and I think that, um, all that frustration sort of mounted, and he was very abusive to Connie and very abusive to Bo, and it culminated in a, an attack, and Mike went into his cage, which he admittedly said he shouldn't have done, um, with an ice cream cone, and chimpanzees are opportunistic and they don't forget. They don't forget trauma as much as we'd like to think they do and he had an opportunity to do what he, I feel like he had wanted to do for a long time and so he bit Mike's nose off and then just went back to doing whatever he was doing and Mike had to have several surgeries and skin grafts and skin taken from his forehead onto his nose. I mean, um, his face was disfigured after that.

And yet knowing personally the trauma that they can cause, even when you raise them, then they still continue to have them reproduce and sell them to other people and just not inform them about the dangers of them.

That's correct. Sandra wasn't informed about what Travis was capable of, what all chimpanzees are capable of. They do not belong as pets. They don't belong raised in human families. They, uh, you can take a chimpanzee out of the wild, but you can't take the wild out of a chimpanzee. This is, I mean, it's innate. It's, it's their instincts. I mean, they become sexually frustrated, emotionally frustrated, psychologically frustrated. They're deprived of so many things that are natural to them and that humans just can't facilitate. There's just no other way to say it. And as a result, I mean, Almost any chimpanzee that is a pet is, is gonna, their life is going to end in some sort of tragedy, whether it's in a cage for the rest of their lives or, um, they end up attacking somebody. It's, it's almost inevitable. They're so strong. The average chimpanzee has the combined strength of five adult men. Five adult men. Um, the chimps at Missouri Primate Foundation were actually, um, housed with actual jail bars that were donated to the facility.

So we have been discussing mentioning the network named Travis, and I think that many, many of our audience may kind of know about the story, but I don't think that they would know the actual what actually happened. So do you want to discuss about that? The, you know, who Travis was and kind of what led to the final incident that ended up with Travis's death.

The moment in 2009, when the attack occurred was not the first time that Travis escaped from the Herold's home. He first escaped a few years before Out of the truck where he was often driven around. Um, he got out, he approached a number of people, tried to get into other cars. The police had the whole area where this was occurring surrounded. Um, and, and Travis did eventually get back into the vehicle. He buckled himself back in, and authorities for the most part treated it like it was a joke, like it was something funny that happened instead of it being a major red flag. Um, that said the law did change in, in Connecticut after that incident occurred and there was a requirement that you needed to have a permit, um, if you owned a primate who was, I think, 45 pounds or, or higher, which Travis, of course, would have been, but then they didn't enforce that law against the Herolds. And that's one of the things that we see over and over in these, situations, um, with chimpanzees who are held as pets or even in situations like what occurred at Missouri Primate Foundation. Even though the laws that we have on the books in the United States for animals are archaic and they desperately need to be updated, Even the laws that we have on the books now aren't being enforced against animal abusers, neglecters, and exploiters, and if they were, it would be a really different world for animals in the United States today. Travis wouldn't have died, um, and the chimpanzees at the Missouri Primate Foundation wouldn't have been tormented and exploited for as long as they were.

Can you tell us what it was that, that happened that day, the day that Travis got killed?

So what happened the day that, that Travis was killed, um, Sandra Herold was preparing to go out and she was trying to get Travis situated and he was agitated, um, and she apparently put, um, I think it was, uh, Xanax. into a drink and and gave that to Travis. Um, and people underestimate just how intelligent these animals are. He was able to to grab Sandra Herold's keys and unlock the door and go outside. So at that point, um, Sandra called her friend, um, Chandra Nash and asked if she could come over and help her to corral Travis. Um, Chandra had been a person, um, who, um, had known Travis for a long time. She'd baby, babysat for him before. Um, and so she came over and people make a, a lot out of this Elmo doll that, that she apparently had. Um, she apparently got out of her car and put this Elmo stuffed animal that she had brought over for Travis in front of her face. Um, and you know, whether that triggered anything or not, we will never know. Um, but at that point, Travis rushed at her and attacked her. Sandra attempted to, or she did stab Travis a number of times in the back. She struck him with a snow shovel multiple times. Um, but none of that deterred him. He, attacked her hands. and tore them off. He tore off her face, and apparently started eating it as well. Sandra called 911. Um, and first responders showed up. At that point, it seems that Travis had, had stopped the attack. Um, and he went to approach a police car. Uh, he shook the car He opened the car door and that's when he was shot by police. He didn't die instantly. He ran back inside, um, into his room, which was, the cage where he was held for, for most of the, the end of his life. Um, and that's where he died. And there are crime scene photos that show the details of the attack. There's the knife, there's the snow shovel. You can see chunks of hair and scalp that he ripped from Chandran Nash's head, And you can also see Travis's body slumped over and, and dead in that, in that room where he was caged for so long. And there was the, the police officer who, who shot him, um, suffered a lot because of what he went through also. Um, he had to go through a lot of counseling, um, and, and had a really hard time with, with what happened, and it's understandable. And that's one of the reasons that that PETA is pushing for the Captive Primate Safety Act to pass, and that's bipartisan federal legislation that would prohibit the private ownership of primates and the private breeding and commercial trade in primates. And in addition to the obvious welfare issues that this bill would accomplish, keeping primates in private homes is also a massive public safety issue. Um, and, and it's a huge issue for first responders. I mean, think about being a first responder and being called out to an emergency, not knowing what you're walking into opening a door and finding a 200 pound chimpanzee staring back at you. And that's the reality for first responders. Um, and that was one of the reasons that the big cat public safety act passed because there were a number of incidents where first responders went into homes and found lions and tigers there and and that's not something that that these people should have to face when when they're just trying to confront emergencies.

So outside of the captive primate safety act is there are there any other laws that prohibit uh primates are there like more like state regulations or is there really nothing significant right now?

There's, there's a patchwork of laws and regulations across the United States, um, that really varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. And that's another reason why we need this uniform prohibition against the private ownership of primates across the country. Um, because it is so different from place to place. And a lot of states don't have any restrictions on what you can and can't do with primates. In Missouri, for example, um, it's perfectly legal to own a chimpanzee or a bear and a tiger and to keep them in your backyard or in your basement. And I think that's one of the real utilities of these popular shows like Tiger King and Chimp Crazy is showing people just how dangerous these animals are, but maybe even more how dangerous these exotic animal hobbyists are. Um, because they don't care about public safety. They don't care about animal welfare. All that they care about is bumping up their ego by owning these magnificent animals who should never be in cages in the first place.

Yeah, because after Travis's attack, nobody really faced any liability for it, right?

They, they didn't. Nobody faced liability after, after Travis's attack. And, and we see in Chimp Crazy, uh, a press conference where officials say that, that no charges will be pursued because Sandra Herold didn't know about the danger that, that Travis posed. And of course that's, that isn't true. Um, we, we heard in that series that, um, that Sandra herself was covered in bruises. Um, and obviously we know that there was the, the previous incident. And we know from public records that there were, um, that there were folks in local law enforcement who had raised red flags and, and blown the whistle and tried to convince Sandra, um, to surrender Travis to a sanctuary. Um, but she just wouldn't do it, and there's, there's speculation that one of the reasons that authorities chose not to pursue charges against Sandra is because they were worried about their own liability because of what they had let happen, um, as a result of failing to enforce the law and letting the situation get completely out of hand to the extent that it did.

So going back to Connie's facility, so she had, she was breeding them for sale and then she became a non profit. When is it that she, that the, that she became a non profit, that it became the Missouri Primate Foundation?

Based on USDA reports, it looks like, um, the shift from Chimp Party to Missouri Primate Foundation occurred between 2007 and 2008.

It's important to note though that nothing changed after she went non profit. Um,

how many chimps did she have in captivity there?

So when the first time, when I first went there, um, in 2001, I believe it was, there were 32 chimpanzees. But according to Tonia, um, I heard her say that, that at one time she had over 40. And by my, uh, guesstimation, uh, they're responsible for breeding more than a hundred babies. I mean, a hundred, a hundred. That's a, that's a whole social group, um, in Africa. That's one of the largest groups, um, in the wild. And that's considered very, very big. And again, like Brittany said, Mike was very arrogant, very egotistical, and, um, You know, I said, you know, to the degree that Connie could love, I believe that she thought that she loved them. But, you know, the money that she was getting for selling that, that, there's no way that that wasn't a part of it. It's, it's just not. And the reason I said she and I have a different definition of love is because I don't know how you love something and then dart it and take its baby and, and then hold the baby and cradle the baby and feed the baby while the mother is downstairs screaming. Mike actually thought there was something wrong with me because I didn't don't, I, I didn't like to hold the infants and it wasn't because I, um, didn't think they were adorable or, um, you know, want to, it was because I felt guilty because I was the one going downstairs and taking care of them after their baby had been taken and I was the one who saw the psychological stress and the emotional bankruptcy, you know, in their eyes, it was, you know, chimps don't have vocal cords, but emotion, um, sadness transcends language. You know, you could see just the emptiness and the sadness. And, um, I don't know if you were going to bring this up or not, but Connor, um, was used for Hallmark cards and Mike took him out when he was eight on his last shoot, which is very old to take a chimpanzee out because of the risks that they impose to the public and to their handler. And, after eight hours of changing into tuxedos or whatever clothes, different costumes they wanted to put on him. He started to exhibit signs of irritability. He stopped listening to cues and, uh, was just downright refusing to change into more clothes. And Mike tried to force him and, um, he had a meltdown. Um, it was just, um, luck that he didn't do to anybody what Travis did to Miss Nash, because he did bite Mike. And people had to hide under tables and desks, and he had to use a light, um, pole to sort of get him back into his cage and, um, and calm him down. And I, I also think that chimpanzees, when they're in this display is what it's called, um, at least for males, when they're, um, attacking or, um, It's almost like they black out. I mean, all the adrenaline that's going through their body. They just, um, they actually lose control. I mean, it's, um, watching a male chimpanzee display is very intimidating. I mean, they throw things, they kick, they punch, they make, you know, noises. And, and that's the whole idea is to intimidate and that's what they do. And, um, and it's just very fortunate that Mike was able to get him back into his cage before he did anything that was more, any more damage than what he did. But Mike did suffer, um, a pretty bad bite to the leg as a result.

So, Brittany, you brought up the USDA. And from what I understand, that was kind of like the initial argument against the facility was USDA violations, right? So can you explain to the audience how the USDA regulates these facilities? And then what was it that led you guys to to require that they make changes?

So the U. S. Department of Agriculture enforces a federal law called the Animal Welfare Act, and the, the Animal Welfare Act, um, regulates, among other animal facilities, um, facilities that sell or exhibit Exotic animals. So a facility like Missouri Primate Foundation, their activities, taking chimpanzees to parties, using them in movies and ads and greeting cards, and selling them to the public, that's activity that requires an Animal Welfare Act license. And so PETA was able to, to document a number of Animal Welfare Act violations at the facility through eyewitness investigations. And we were, we submitted complaints to the USDA based on those eyewitness investigations. And the USDA did end up citing the Missouri Primate Foundation for a number of deficiencies, including excessive feces and urine buildup in enclosures. One of the inspection reports noted that the, the buildup and stench of urine in one area of the facility was so severe that it irritated the inspectors nasal passages, um, and she was just in there for a few moments. And, you know, so you have to think about the fact that the chimpanzees are living in that environment 24 seven, having to suffer in that those disgusting, horrific conditions. Um, there were cockroach infestations, animals were documented having sparse hair coats and pulling out their own fur as a result of profound psychological frustration. Unfortunately, The U. S. Department of Agriculture is notorious for failing to adequately enforce the Animal Welfare Act, so while those citations documenting violations are helpful, there are actually no penalties that go along with just violations listed on an inspection report. You don't, your license isn't suspended, you're not subject to a fine. Nothing. Um, and the USDA, other than, um, issuing an official warning and what's called a letter of information to the Missouri Primate Foundation, again, which is an escalation, but that doesn't have any penalty attached to it. You know, so if you're not penalizing these facilities that don't care about animal welfare, then you're not doing anything to incentivize them to comply. And so that's where the Endangered Species Act comes in. And up until 2015, captive chimpanzees in the United States were not subject to the protections of the Endangered Species Act. So even though chimpanzees were listed as endangered, it was only chimpanzees in the wild who were subject to those protections. But thanks to work by organizations, including the Jane Goodall Institute, um, in 25, in 2015, that changed. And captive chimpanzees were then, um, subject to the ESA's protections. And so those include, um, restrictions on commercial activity. Um, so you can't buy or sell a chimpanzee unless you have a permit from the federal government. Um, and people like Connie Casey or Sandra Herold, um, who are. just buying and selling these animals for profit or as pets wouldn't be eligible for those permits. And then there's also something called a take under the Endangered Species Act and that prohibits doing things to chimpanzees like killing them, maiming them, or subjecting them to physical, psychological, or social injuries. And So as soon as that the captive chimpanzee, um, split listing loophole was closed, PETA started working on filing ESA cases on behalf of chimpanzees. And the first case that we filed was actually on behalf of Tonka's brother. A chimpanzee named Joe, who was held in solitary confinement in a roadside zoo in Mobile, Alabama. Um, and we were able to win his, uh, his transfer to sanctuary. He lives at Save the Chimps today. Um, and And then we worked on Missouri Primate Foundation, and this isn't mentioned in the show, but PETA worked for years to try to come to a resolution with Connie Casey before we resorted to filing this federal action. We actually tried to buy her out before the captive chimpanzee split listing closed. I'm not going to give the figure, but we offered her a massive amount of money that would have allowed her to retire comfortably. If she would agree to allow the animals to be retired to sanctuaries and agreed to never own or possess exotic animals again. She refused, and so we had no choice but to file a lawsuit against her under the Endangered Species Act.

And at the beginning, it wasn't about taking them away, right? Like you just wanted her to make things right for them.

Well, we were, we were willing to give her that opportunity. Um, I don't think any of us had any confidence that she had any intention of, of changing or improving conditions. I think to her, what she was doing was just fine. I don't think that she thought that the chimpanzees needed anything other than to be locked up behind prison bars because that's how she'd always done it. And that's an attitude that we see from a lot of exotic, exotic animal owners. "This is how we've always done it, so it's fine". Ignoring the fact that that animal welfare science has advanced tremendously in the past decade alone. What we know about captive wild animals and what they need for even minimal welfare when they're held in captivity in the United States and, um, yeah. And it, and it, and it turned out that, that she didn't improve conditions for the animals. She just turned over ownership of them to, uh, a shady exotic animal broker named Tonia Haddix.

It, it feels a lot like a puppy mill, right? Like where there are regulations that are supposed to manage them and tell them how to run things. But then there are all these violations that happen over and over and over. And ultimately things don't really change because it's about the money. It's not necessarily about the animals. And there's a little bit of that of that rescue hoarding going on as well, because it's that I'm the only one that can take care of these animals, which it sounds like that's the Tonia Haddix mentality. Like, I feel, I feel about Connie as more of an exploiter hoarder because of the business of it, but this Tonia lady just seems like she, she truly is in that mental state that she is so blinded to what she's doing that she thinks that she's doing something right.

And I mean, the definition of broker is using an animal as a commodity, right? I mean, that's, that's exactly what they're doing. And, um, I, I completely agree. And, you know, I was one person taking care of 32 chimpanzees and I was a volunteer. I worked at Walmart. I didn't get paid for my work there. And there were dead flies in their water buckets. Um, there was no fail safe. If, you know, no secondary plan. If a chimp did escape, you know, no chimps did escape on my watch, but, um, they did on Connie's and it happened more than one time. And there were other incidents before Susie's death. Um, and that's the thing. It's not like they're kept in these um, wonderful, wonderful places. I mean, these are deplorable conditions, not fit for, for any, for anyone. The food was moldy. It was donated. Um, I used to drive and pick it up from, from bread shops. Then Connie was using her social security to provide for them. And you're exactly right. She did not think that she was doing anything wrong. And Tonia even said, um, you know, PETA didn't come see the quality of life that these animals have, or the bond that they have with their, with their owners. And, um, it's, it's, it's just not true. It's not true. And, you know, PETA worked for years. I mean, it was time consuming. It was expensive and I will forever be in debt for, for what they did, but it was, it was, and it was not easy and. Um, I'm just so grateful that we were able to, to get the chimps out that we could.

So how did you become part of the investigation? Like what, what drove you to, to join PETA and help them collect the evidence that they needed to, to be able to move forward?

What I wanted from the day that I walked in there and that was for them to have some semblance of a natural life. And my mom's been a member of PETA for a long time and I will never forget the phone call that I got from her. And it was. Um, Angela, um, I got, there was a newsletter, uh, and Peetr was talking about how they're going after Connie or chimps. And the very first thought I had was I want to help. So I reached out and I contacted Brittany and we had a meeting. And, um, they said that they had been trying for a long time to get somebody in there so that they could get the evidence that they needed to prove that the conditions were deplorable and what was happening in there was, was wrong. Um, and I knew that I could go in and I called Connie and I asked if I could come visit the chimps and, I went in there and I recorded my visit and I got as much evidence as I possibly could to support the lawsuit, um, and I, I became, um, I think a co plaintiff on PETA's behalf to, against Connie to get the chimps out and, uh, and that was, that was my goal was, uh, Um, and always was my goal. I mean, I said it on the show. There were so many times when I, when I told those chimps, you know, one day I'm going to get you out of here one day, I'm going to get you out of here. And I said that for a long time and I meant it with my heart, but, um, I was well aware when I went in, um, to record that, once the footage broke and Connie knew what I had done, that if Peeta and I didn't win, that I would never see those chimpanzees again, but it was worth it to me. And I think that there's a stigma attached to whistleblowers, you know, it's, you're a snitch, you're this, you're that. I stand by what I did and I would do it again and watching them suffer, and the memories that I have of the traumatic events that took place there. It was, um, such a relief when they called me and they said, you know, we're here to seize the chimps, Angela, you know, we did it. We got them. That was an amazing feeling.

I think a lot of people don't understand that, you know, because clearly the animals cannot sue on behalf of themselves because they, they have no, no statute in law. But organizations like PETA can do it. So, Brittany, can you explain how, how that process works?

Yes, so one of the unique things about the Endangered Species Act that isn't a part of, of other laws that, that are supposed to protect animals, like the Animal Welfare Act, for example, is that there's what's called a citizen suit provision that does allow individuals and entities to sue on behalf of, of animals. Um, there is still a legal standing requirement, and so you, you have to be able to prove, um, that you were subject to a unique injury as a result of the defendant. So in this case, Connie Casey, their conduct, and, you have to show that the harm that you're alleging will be redressed by a lawsuit. Um, you know, and so obviously in our case, the, the redress of that harm would be improvement in the conditions for the chimpanzees or their removal to a facility that, that was able to provide them with, with those conditions. And so that's ultimately, um, the relief that we were granted as a result. of the lawsuit. Um, unfortunately, some recent decisions by the United States Supreme Court make that standing those types of standing arguments a little bit more difficult. Um, and so it may be more challenging for us to bring these lawsuits in the future. Uh, and so that's another reason why the Captive Primate Safety Act is so important and why it's so important for federal agencies like the U. S. Department of Agriculture and the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service, which has jurisdiction to enforce the Endangered Species Act, um, but almost never does on behalf of captive wildlife. It's critically important for them to step up and to finally do their jobs so that PETA doesn't have to do it for them.

So once they did not do what they needed to do and then you decided to follow through, then finally you were granted Well, actually, let me, let me back up because part of the, of what complicated things was that then Connie decided to grant ownership of the chimps to this other person, Tonia Haddix. So can you explain who she was and. and basically why, why they made that move.

Tonia Haddix is an exotic animal broker, which is essentially just a person who sells exotic animals to whoever is willing to pay for them. Um, she specializes in infant primates of all species, but also sells animals like sloths and otters and foxes and kangaroos. So she and Connie cooked up a scheme, um, to try to moot the lawsuit by Connie transferring ownership of the chimpanzees to Tonia Haddix. Um, the thought was, since Tonia Haddix, isn't a party to the lawsuit, um, if Connie Casey no longer owned the Chimpanzees, then PETA would have no claim against her. But that scheme didn't work out. Um, it was very short sighted because all we really had to do and what we did do was add Tonia Haddix as a defendant to the lawsuit, um, and, and she didn't like that. And, and she was obstructionist from the beginning, being argumentative and not wanting to, to comply with the, the court, the court's orders in the case.

And Tonia was the original owner of the famous chimp Tonka, right?

No, she wasn't. No. Tonka was one of the chimpanzees that, um, that she was, that, that Connie Casey conveyed to her, um, at the end of 2017.

Okay. That's interesting because looking at everything, it almost makes it sound like she raised him from a baby and that she was his, and that was her attachment to him.

She's only known Tonka for a few years. Um, what also is just mind boggling is that PETA was actually negotiated a way for her to keep Tonka and two other chimps. She just simply had to, uh, agree to build a habitat and, um, you know, make conditions better. And she says in, in the series that she spent $500,000 on, uh, repairs to that facility, but she couldn't, um, you make the adjustments she needed to, to satisfy, um, PETA, which was significantly less than that. And, of course, then she faked his death and put him through the stress of, um, the horrible things that she had to do. I don't want to, you know, ruin it for everybody. So, you know, just, it's, it's just unbelievable that, that she really thought that what she was doing was right for Tonka.

People can definitely watch the documentary and see the horrible conditions in which these animals were kept. And, and one of the things that you see is how she's crying and saying about how, how she's so attached to them and how she loves them. So, but all the interaction is just through cage bars. Like, these animals are not really allowed to express any kind of physical care, and you can understand why. I mean, I would not want to, I would not feel comfortable giving one of them a hug because I know the, how powerful they are, but they're not allowed to express themselves in any, in any way, shape or form.

And she kept Tonka alone. He was alone, alone. So separated from his family, you know, his, his family went to a sanctuary and he went to her basement. That's literally what happened. It was very unfortunate for Tonka.

But then thankfully, eventually, you guys did find out where Tonka was at, and then were able to recover him, right? How did that whole thing go down?

So, um, folks will see this in the series, and, and, spoiler alert, I don't know when this is, is coming out, but, um, if you haven't seen episodes three and four of the series yet, um, you may want to forward a little bit, um, but We, um, PETA launched a nationwide search for, for Tonka. We visited a number of facilities where he, where we thought he could be. Um, we issued a $10,000 reward for information, um, leading to his recovery. We did Facebook ads and newspaper ads and we blasted the news about that reward everywhere. Alan Cumming, who had previously starred with Tonka in a movie called Buddy in the 90s, matched that reward offer. And so ultimately there was a $20,000 reward. Oh, and then, um, there was also, of course, the psychic. Um, PETA got a call from a psychic, and one of her clients, it turned out, was friends with Tonia Haddix. And Tonia Haddix had confessed to her that Tonka was still alive. And so the psychic came to us and said, Hey, I, you know, I've heard about this situation and I just want you to know Tonka is alive. You know, you all are on the right track and you're doing the right thing. And ultimately we got a call from the Chimp Crazy producers and they had recorded a phone call between Tonia Haddix and the proxy director, Dwayne Cunningham, in which Tonia claimed that Tonka was in severe congestive heart failure, that he was in terrible condition, he was ailing, and that she was planning to have him euthanized at the time that we heard the recording, in two days. This was Memorial Day weekend. So it was, it was, uh, uh, a holiday weekend. So the courts weren't open. Um, but my colleague, Jared went to meet with the producers in California to get a copy of the recording. We filed a temporary restraining order the next day. We filed it under seal so Tonia didn't have any advanced notice of it. And we asked the court, um, to enjoin tonia and her veterinarian, Dr. Casey Talbot, from euthanizing Tonka or from removing him from her home until PETA was able to get there with a qualified chimpanzee veterinarian to assess his condition and determine whether he was fit for transport. Um, the federal marshals served that warrant on Tonka and we found out later that morning that he was in fact alive in her basement and we saw the first photos of him, uh, that day.

And then you had him checked out and all of her claims of him being sick were just not true, right?

Yes, so we had a highly experienced chimpanzee veterinarian, um, do a comprehensive exam of him and they were accompanied by Save the Chimps veterinarian, and what that exam found was that he was obese, likely because of the fact that he wasn't able to exercise in that tiny cage or because of all the garbage that Tonia fed him. Um, and he had some dental issues and those are issues that had been previously found when Casey Talbot did a dental exam a couple of years earlier but nothing was ever done about it. So he was, he had been suffering with dental pain for years as well. But no, he wasn't in congestive heart failure at all. Um, you know, and, and there is a suggestion of, of something like Munchausen by proxy here, because we also got a long list of drugs that, that Tonia was giving to Tonka during this time. And, and he was being given massive doses of drugs that he didn't need. Um, and so, so yes, he probably was, um, acting as if he wasn't well because he was being drugged.

So thankfully now, Tonka and the rest of the animals are at Safe the Chimps, right? Uh, can, can you tell us about that organization and, and what makes them a true sanctuary compared to what Connie was trying to run?

So, so far we've been able to rescue, we rescued nine chimpanzees as a result of the Missouri Primate Foundation case. Seven of them are, uh, are at a sanctuary in Florida called the Center for Great Apes. Um, the six that we rescued in, um, that folks saw in that scene in the first episode, of Chimp Crazy, um, and then another chimpanzee named Chloe, who we were able to get her to the Center for Great Apes earlier in the litigation as a result of a settlement agreement between her owner and PETA. She was being boarded at Missouri Primate Foundation, so Connie Casey didn't have control over where she went. Um, and then Tonka and another chimpanzee named Allie, um, and she was the same situation as Chloe. We settled with her owner separately, they're both at Save the Chimps. Unfortunately, um, when we found Tonka in the summer of 2022, the Center for Great Apes no longer had space. And so he wasn't able to be placed at the sanctuary where the rest of his. the chimpanzee family that he'd known at Missouri Primate Foundation was. If Tonia hadn't have taken him, he would be there with them today. But thankfully he's doing amazingly well at Save the Chimps. Um, and what's unique about Save the Chimps and the Center for Great Apes, they're accredited by an organization called the Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries, which is the gold standard, um, for animal care facilities across the world. They have extremely high standards of Of care and save the chimps and the center for great apes both have experienced veterinarians, behavior staff, massive, beautiful facilities, big staffs, and the ability to provide chimpanzees with the extremely high amount of care that they need, to be able to have next to normal lives in in captivity and just to kind of contrast between what Missouri primate foundation, the level of care that Missouri primate foundation provided versus what a true sanctuary provides. As you heard Angela say, Connie was running Missouri primate foundation on her social security check and donated, um, outdated food, but at a true sanctuary, um, it costs $25,000 per year per chimpanzee, um, for care.

I always, I always get concerned when I hear the word sanctuary, right, because I just see so many alleged sanctuaries that are just either basically petting zoos or places like hoarding facilities. So really important for people listening to, if you're going to visit or donate to one of these organizations, you need to make sure that they are accredited, that they are legit places. Realistically, a true sanctuary is not going to let you come in contact with the animals. They're not going to let you touch them. They're not gonna, you know, bring them out and have, um, have them have play dates and that kind of stuff. I recently visited a sanctuary, it was my first real visit to a sanctuary, in Kentucky, and that was one of the things is we were able to see them from afar. Um, and then the second, there were some, some monkeys that started getting really upset about our presence there, even though we were really far, and the, and the person in charge said, okay, let's just keep moving because they're not happy about us being here. Like a true sanctuary cares about the animals, not about, you know, not about people coming in and seeing them like a zoo.

Also, a lot of people don't know this, during the course of our lawsuit, uh, Connie transferred, I think it's six, Kobe, Kirby, Daisy, KK, Carrie to, she wasn't allowed to, but she did it anyway, she transferred them to a roadside zoo so that we wouldn't be able to rescue them, which was very unfortunate. And they're still there, unfortunately.

Yeah. And the way to stop these things is for people to stop patronizing them. Right? Like if we stop attending these. roadside zoos, these petting zoos and that kind of stuff. If, if there's no, if there's nobody paying to see them, then they're not going to make any money and they're going to be forced to shut down. But hopefully with, with laws like this, we're going to be able to make it so that, that that's not even, and that's not even something that needs to be done. Um, how can people, how can anybody in our audience. help promote this captive primate safety act.

So, um, everyone can go to PETA. org and there you'll find an easy form that will take you to your federal legislators and you can call on your federal legislators to co sponsor the Captive Primate Safety Act. Um, there's also an opportunity for folks to advocate on behalf of some of the chimpanzees in the United States who still need our help at peta.org. Um, and we also encourage people, as you said, Dr. G, don't buy tickets to these places. We can shut down this industry tomorrow if we just stop buying the tickets. Um, and let's also work together to make it as, um, passe on social media as it is to wear fur, to post a photo of yourself at a roadside zoo or posing with a wild animal. Say something when you see your friends or family post those things on social media. And if you need tips on what to say, um, you can find a ton of information at peta.org.

I went to Mexico and there was a HSI, Humane Society International, from Costa Rica, and they were running this responsible safety. Uh, responsible selfie type, uh, promotion. Basically, if you see a wild animal, don't go touching it. Don't get close to it or anything. You can take a selfie from afar. You're in the picture. They're in the picture. You're leaving them alone. Like there are ways to be present and to let people know, Hey, I'm here and here's this really cool animal without affecting their their well being in general.

You know, it's also I just saw somebody posted a video with a chimp with a puppy and, uh, it's amazing how we humanize them when they're cute and little and dress them up, um, and then demonize them when they act like the wild animal that they are. And I still see people saying, Oh, how cute, how cute, a chimp and a puppy, how cute. Had something gone wrong, you know, those wouldn't be the comments that you see. So I, I completely agree with everything that you guys are saying.

And Angela makes a really good point. A trend that we're seeing in this industry right now, the roadside zoo industry is dying. We're not seeing an expansion in that industry. What we're seeing is an expansion of exotic animal influencers on social media. Um, you can make a lot more money posting videos of yourself interacting with a tiger cub or a baby chimpanzee on TikTok than you can operating a roadside zoo. Um, so I encourage people, um, to go through your follows on all of your social media accounts and unfollow any of these exotic animal influencers, um, because you don't want to be supporting, um, the, the cruelty that they're inflicting on these animals.

This has been a really eye opening experience as far as to everything that was happening behind the scenes, like everything that was happening to these chimps that people don't understand and the reasons, the true reasons not to have these animals. Is there anything that we have not mentioned that you feel that is important for our audience to know?

I think that it's important for people to know that, that they have an important role to play in this too, as we talked about, they don't just have to sit back, um, and hope that, that PETA will continue to step in and that more Angelas will step in and step up. Um, but if you know something, reach out to, to PETA. If you have a friend or you work at one of these facilities, or if you have information or evidence, we want to hear from you, um, and, and I think that, you know, Angela's experience can speak to what an amazing outcome you can have if, if you just speak up. It was an incredibly brave thing that, that Angela did. Um, but she saved nine lives and, um, there's nothing better than that.

Yeah, there really isn't. And I just too, I, I want to say that if you see something, say something, because there was a long time where I thought, you know, there wouldn't be anything that I could do, but really. It takes you. I mean, we have to become part of the solution and not part of the problem. And if you just look away, um, and you don't actively do something, then, then nothing changes. Nothing changes. Nothing changes. I mean, it really does take people to step up and speak up. And sometimes, you know, you think that you stand alone, but there really are people out there who will support you. Um, and PETA was, was great. Um, and it's a wonderful organization. And like I said, you know, you and Jared are absolute legends and you guys were amazing. And I'm so grateful to you guys. I'm so grateful on behalf of the chimpanzees. I really am. And thank you, Dr. G. I really appreciate you having me on.

Thank you both very much for being here. I am hoping that, you know, again, that we have maybe made people think twice or reinforced people that knew that this was not okay. Reinforce why it's not that maybe more individuals are going to step up and do something. We've given them resources, so visit PETA. org so that you can find out what can be done, what, how you can help. Um, you can help by sharing, rating, uh, spreading the word with this episode so that more people are aware. And check out the documentary, Chimp Crazy, that's on HBO. I mean, it, it gives you, uh, A really impressive look at everything that, that went on. So, um, thank you again, both for being here. Thank you for your time. Thank you for everything that you have done for the chimps and to everybody listening, thank you for listening. And thank you for caring.

Thank you so much. Bye.