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This is the Conservation and Science Podcast Replay series,
a curated collection of best episodes from last year.

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If you are new to the show, this is an excellent opportunity
to catch up with the most popular episodes from the back catalog.

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And if you are a regular listener,
maybe you miss one of those or want to listen to one of them again.

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Don't worry, the new episodes are being published on their regular
fortnightly schedule, so keep tuning in for the new content

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every other Tuesday.

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Is bow hunting inhumane?

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Is killing an animal with an arrow and inhumane thing to do?

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Well, there is a lot of folks who insist the answer is yes,
and that is somehow reflected in the regulations.

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As hunting with archery tackle is illegal in most of Europe,
and I am not surprised if those opinions are expressed

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by, let's say, a veterinary professional
with particular interest in animal welfare,

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who on top of that had very little,
if none, experience and exposure to bow hunting.

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But when those opinions are expressed by hunters and almost bothered

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especially that those hunters had also no exposure,
no real world exposure to bow hunting.

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And in a second part of this podcast,
you will hear a story about a hardcore old European hunter

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who changed his mind about bow hunting once
he took part and participated in a hunt with archery tackle.

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So that's in the second part of this podcast,

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but I think it is my role here in this podcast
to be bringing you different opinions, different points of view.

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And this is, probably third or fourth episode.

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Where are we going to talk about bow hunting?

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So today we are joined by an expert bow hunter, Jim Clark.

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Jim Hunts with archery tackle close to four decades.

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He hunts with a compound bow with a recurve bow.
He hunted with a crossbow.

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And obviously he handled with a rifle.

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So his opinions and his views, I think that are very well thought out.

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And he has a wealth of experience, and he's sharing that with us today.

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And as usual in those episodes, I'll post him a little bit,
asking him questions

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about hunting with archery, tackle and bow hunting
that might be uncomfortable.

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And, yeah, you're gonna hear his answers.

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In the episode, we also discuss the development and progress
in, technology of archery, tackle

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and how this might or might not impact the humaneness of an endeavor.

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And also, Jim will share some of his hunting stories.

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So overall, that was a very enjoyable episode to record,

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and I hope you will learn a thing or two about bow
hunting and hunting with archery tackle.

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And just to be clear, if you are against bow hunting
or you think it is an inhumane thing to do,

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I'm not expecting you to change your mind
after listening to this episode.

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But maybe, just maybe, on the surface of your strong opinion,
a little crack appears and if that happens, my job is done.

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This is what we do.

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In this podcast, we discuss issues related to environments
and human wildlife interactions that are sometimes controversial,

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maybe not clear cut, and the role of the podcast
is to present different angles and different opinions on those aspects.

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So this is one of those episodes.
And as always, before I let you enjoy this episode of the podcast.

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Just a reminder
that if you're interested in the subjects we're discussing here

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and you want to dive deeper in those subjects, you should subscribe
to my newsletter, the so-called Conservation and Science Newsletter.

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The link is obviously in the description of the show,
and that newsletter comes together

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with podcast episodes,
and it usually contains some other reading and other materials

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that will allow you to dive deeper into the subjects
we discuss on the podcast.

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And also you'll get notifications there
about live events, weather, events.

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When I'm speaking live. Or maybe I'm just attending participating.

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So if it's something that interests you, you can join the event,
you can go to the event.

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And if you see me there, come up and say hello.

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So, that's it for that introduction.

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And so now,
ladies and gentlemen, Jim Clark and hunting with archery tackle.

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And. Jim, welcome to the show.

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It's a pleasure to have you in the pleasure. Talk with you.

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Thank you. Tammy,
I really appreciate it. Been looking forward to our conversation. Yes.

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And as, listeners of this podcast know,
and as you already know as well, I,

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I'm really keen, to talk about bow hunting any time I can,
because bow hunting is just not a thing in Europe, and I.

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I hope that maybe
if there's going to be like 1 or 2 people who starts, you know,

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pushing right buttons to get that bow hunting going in Europe
in, in the to the greater extent, because there are

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some places in France, I think that in Spain there are some provinces
where you can bow hunt, but in general you cannot bow hunting.

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Where I am in Ireland, it's a no no in the UK as well,
where the probably majority of the listeners are.

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So, you know, I'm very keen to talk about it and we,
we have a lot of talk.

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So before we start, Jim, could you give us, like,
a, like a brief introduction to,

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who you are, what you do, and how you got started, in bow hunting?

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Yeah, absolutely. Tommy.

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So my name is Jim Clark, and I grew up in Chicago, Illinois,
so in a city, fairly good sized city. And,

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since a young age, I always love the outdoors.

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Just it was just one of those things where I was always taking my
fishing rod and going out to the local pond and things of that nature.

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And, and once a year,
my dad would take us on a, on a pheasant hunting trip.

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So I got exposed to hunting a little bit
through my father and his business.

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But he was not a passionate big game hunter, nor a bow hunter.

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But I just fell in love with it.

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With the with the whole lifestyle of of pursuing game

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and the tremendous challenge and fulfillment
that I got out of that, even even though I started small time.

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And so as I got older,
I started working in a sporting goods store and was introduced.

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The sporting goods store sold bows and I was like, wow, that is cool.

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And I'd shot the little bows
when I was a kid, right? But never a real bow.

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And so I started shooting at that store,
and I fell in love with archery, and I got introduced

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to the concept of bow hunting for deer,
which was much easier to get a tag.

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Right. So. So the reason I started bow hunting was
I had never gun hunted up to that point.

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But there was a lot of areas that had public ground
that you could bow hunt.

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Only where I grew up, outside of Chicago, Illinois,
they didn't allow gun hunting, just buying.

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So I'm like, well, this is perfect for me.

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I can I can learn a new sport that's pursuing big game,
which I thought was the sport of kings and still believe that.

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And I started and I didn't really know what I was doing.

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So I did a lot of reading
and I didn't really have any mentors at the time.

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So I just started figuring it out with another friend of mine.

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So that's how I got started in bow planning, and I've pursued it
my whole life from from that kind of from that starting point.

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So you're you're never
you never started, like, with a rifle and then graduated to the bow.

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You just started straight up.

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Bow was the first type of hunting you started.

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I did, and that's a little unusual mill based on all the friends
that I now know, that bow and a lot of them started,

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in different ways, mainly started gun hunting,
and then wanted more of a challenge and bonding.

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But I started bonding because it was the
it was the only opportunity that I had.

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And, and, and it was very accessible, right.

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In many state, in many areas in the United States,
both seasons starts way earlier than rifle season.

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It's three and some cases four months long,
whereas rifle season or even, primitive weapon season is very short.

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So it opened up a lot of opportunity over with longer seasons

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and created a great challenge.

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Right. Because bow hunting is certainly very challenging,
particularly with the, the,

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the equipment that we had 35 years ago when I started up.

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But I, but I, but I fell in love with it
and since then I've done more gun hunting and so on.

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But I've shot and harvested many more animals with a bow than a gun.

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What is for you
the main difference between bow hunting and hunting with a rifle?

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If I was to boil it down to 2 or 2 a word, it was it's intimacy,

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meaning the ability to be very intimate with the animal
because they're very close.

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The requirement to get very intimate about your knowledge
of their movements, where they bed, where they feed.

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You know, you have to really study the movements of the animals to put
yourself in position between where they are and where they're going.

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Whereas with a rifle, you can sit on an opposite hillside and know
a general area that's good for for deer or elk or whatever it may be.

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And see animals in a distance and today shoot them at 600 yards.

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So that has its own challenge and own fulfillment.

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I'm not knocking that, but I love the intimacy of bow on.

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It is there is there going like a, a little bit of a rivalry between
the bow hunters and and rifle hunters?

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It's a it's an interesting question. I would say,

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there is a bit, but,

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rifle hunters know they have a tremendous advantage, right?

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But their seasons are typically late in the season.

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After the rut in most states is when you can gun hunt.

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So the rifle hunters are sometimes they're a little bit,

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miffed that the archery guys get to hunt during the peak of of the
mating season of the rut, which is when the animals are most vulnerable.

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So there's a little bit of that,
but bow hunters have the added challenge. So.

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So in my years of exercise,
I've never run into, like, a real rift between gun and bow.

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The at least in the circles I travel,
I know it exists, but I haven't haven't really run into that.

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I respect rifle hunters.

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And I feel like they they respect what what I do as a bow hunter.

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But I have heard stories of of of friction there, for sure,
but I don't really see a need for it.

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We're all there to enjoy the same thing. We just do it in our own way.

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Yeah.

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And I and I think that also kind of like, is, separation of seasons is,

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you know, helping that deer because I presume it wouldn't work
if the season like, is it, maybe that's a question.

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Is there situations that you can hunt the animals
both with the rifle or with the bow?

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There is in most in most states in the US,

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you can legally hut deer during gun season with the bow.

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Okay. Provided you're following all the regulations of a gun hunter.

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So if they require blaze orange, you have to be wearing blaze orange.

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If they require an extra tag, you have to have that extra tag.

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But you can legally Beaumont during gun season.

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Now that has has its obvious disadvantages however.

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But if you're on private ground that you have exclusive rights to hunt
and there's guys gun hunting all around

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and you want to have it harvest an animal with a bow,

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that's actually not a bad time, because there are a lot of times
moving those animals onto your property.

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Hahaha. Not that's true, that's true.

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So yeah, I've done, I've done,
I've done some of that and it can be effective.

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Okay, okay. Yeah.

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I was just thinking about, you know, the safety measures
because you need to get so much closer to the animal.

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And, you know, I can I can almost imagine you're just, you know, trying,
to take a shot at the animal and then someone 200 yards, boom.

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Just happens.

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It's it's sits the other. Well, it can happen. And you mentioned safety.

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That's paramount. Like when you're bow hunting during gun season,
you have to, be very aware.

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And yet in most states, you're.

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I would always wear blaze orange during gun season. Full stop,
whether it's required or not. Absolutely.

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Because of that safety reason. Yeah, yeah.

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Before we, jump into it
a little bit further into the details of bow hunting,

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I got to ask
you also about crossbow so that it that counts as a archery equipment.

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Yes. And yeah, the probably you can elaborate
now whether there's a separate season for

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for, crossbow probably depends on the state.

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Or is it, like archery equipment is all encompassing?

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You know, so if you
if you could give us a little bit of the, insight on this,

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keeping in mind that, you know, most of the listeners of this podcast
never hunted with a bow and never hunted with a crossbow

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and might not even be fully aware of
what are the differences, in effectiveness and so on.

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Okay, great. Well, it's a really interesting question.
And that is a hot button in many, in many circles.

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But just to boil it down, when you're shooting a bow,
whether it's your traditional recurve or long bow

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where you don't have a sight on it and a release, or you're shooting
a compound bow, which often has a sight and a release.

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So it's a little bit easier to be accurate at a distance.

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You still have limitations relative to the
you still have to draw the bow back, hold it back,

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keep it on target, and make a clean release,
with an on magnified, sight pin.

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If you're cutting with a compound bow.

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So there are limits to, you know, the range and accuracy and so on.

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With a crossbow, the primary distinction is it's more like a rifle,
in that once you pocket and put the bolt in, it stays cocked.

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And the arrow, which is called a bolt,
the bolt in a crossbow is much smaller.

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It's shorter and heavy,
so it travels extremely fast and flies extremely, flat.

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So you can you're much more accurate out to 70, 80 yards with a crossbow
than you would ever be with a compound.

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And when you get the animal in close,
you don't have to draw back the crossbow.

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It's already cocked like a rifle. So you just point and shoot.

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Then you can put a scope on a crossbow.

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So it's a crossbow.

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Is has, I think, more similarities to a rifle than it does a bow,

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relative to the advantages
you obtain by always having it cocked and ready to shoot.

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It has a safety on it, and you can put a scope on it.

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The similarities are they both use a a banded,
you know, abandoned bow limb to propel the arrow.

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That's about the only similarities.

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So I'll just stop there from a just the different standpoint.
Does that make sense.

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Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

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And and obviously because of that
also the range you can shoot an animal is way

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longer or higher or you can, you can should an animal
for the greater distance or the crossbow I presume

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you, you can I mean, obviously there's people out there that can shoot
a compound bow very accurately, particularly out west where you're.

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We're hunting big country longer distances.

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They'll shoot maybe even out to 40, 50, even 60 yards,
which is really long with a bow, but with a crossbow.

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But that takes a high degree of skill. Yeah. Someone.
Someone who has never shot a crossbow.

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I've ever shot a crossbow in your life. You know I did not.

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If you've picked if you picked up a crossbow today.

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If I handed you, handed you one that was sighted

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and you went to shoot it, you could shoot it
very accurately out to 70, 80 yards and your very first try.

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So imagine that it takes away more practice and expertise
to accurately shoot a bow out to say, 60 yards than with a crossbow.

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Who you could just pick it up and shoot it,
which gives a lot of people confidence to take a lot longer shots.

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Maybe then they're capable, different, different story.

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But that's the that's the difference primarily, is it?

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Then causing the again, tension between the like a classical,
let's call them bow hunters and and crossbow

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because it's like okay, we have this season for bow hunting
and it requires skill and all those things and all that.

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Then, you know, someone shows up, like I said, with a crossbow,
first time in their hands, and they have all that,

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you know, advantages, let's say, of the early archery season
and so on, that, that you're absolutely right.

201
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:16,520
There is there is tension and friction there. And it really gets down to

202
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,160
the, the advantages of the equipment that you, that you reference.

203
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:22,920
In other words,

204
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:30,320
people who bohot at least speaking for myself, I chose to bow because
I love the challenge and the intimacy of getting closer to the deer.

205
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:36,080
And part of the challenge is the requirement to really practice
shooting your bow and really get good at.

206
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:37,320
And I shot traditional.

207
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,000
I shot recurve for the first 25, 30 years of of my hunting.

208
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,680
So so so I really,

209
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,520
actually I started with a compound bow
shot, a few deer with it, and I'm like, I want something else.

210
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,800
And then I went to recurve and hunted with a recurve traditional bow
for about 30 years.

211
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,880
I think. And, it was by choice.

212
00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:01,880
But it's because I enjoyed the challenge and the intimacy
and the the requirement to practice and so on.

213
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:11,880
And so most folks that bow hunt feel like bow hunting with the longer
seasons should be limited to, more, you know, Archer traditional archery

214
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:18,440
equipment, because you're giving a lot, you know, a longer opportunity
to hunt because you have a more a bigger challenge with the equipment.

215
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,160
Once you enter crossbows into that equation, right?

216
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,560
There is some friction because it's like, look,

217
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:32,720
we're having someone who's hunting with a crossbow has the advantage
of a rifle hunting in a, a traditional equipment season.

218
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,680
And that's really where the friction is.

219
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:42,080
What I can say is in the United States and I don't know the exact
numbers, I haven't studied the numbers, but there are a lot of states

220
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:48,720
where archery in in archery season, you can only hunt with a compound,

221
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,960
or a traditional bow, like a longbow or recurve
crossbows are not allowed.

222
00:18:53,960 --> 00:19:00,040
The only time they would be allowed is if you had a disability
and you applied for a permit, and you got granted a permit

223
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:05,280
based on some kind of a doctor's, you know, disability note,
and it has to be approved by the state.

224
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:09,480
So, so they're, they're they're not allowed in Boces.

225
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:14,640
They are allowed in what's called I think it's called,
there's a primitive weapon season in a lot of states,

226
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:20,800
which is primarily, muzzle loaders and oftentimes
crossbows are allowed in muzzleloader season.

227
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:27,080
Oh, because they're actually more akin to that if you think
about the effective range of a muzzleloader being, let's say,

228
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,840
I should say a traditional muzzleloader, out to about 100 yards.

229
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,520
Well, the, you know, that's kind of with a crossbow. You're,
you're good out to nearly there.

230
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:45,960
So in other states, for example, Ohio or Kansas,
crossbows are allowed in bow season as a traditional weapon.

231
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,880
And there is some friction there because of what I mentioned earlier.

232
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,240
It's like, hey, you're you're coming in and you're not having it.

233
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:59,240
You're not being held at the same standard of scouting
and getting close to the animal and practicing and so on and so forth.

234
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,840
You can come in and shoot a deer at 50, 60 yards
with a crossbow, fairly easily.

235
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,680
And so that's the distinction. And there is some friction there.

236
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,120
And it's state by state.

237
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:16,320
It's been a battle between the traditional archers
and the guys that oftentimes the manufacturers that want it

238
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,640
legalized in the state, because they're going to sell
a lot more crossbows if it's legal during bow season.

239
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:21,760
You know, the economics of that.

240
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,160
So of course, that's where the tension
that's where the tension is. Yeah.

241
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,440
Oh okay. Thanks for for laying that out for us, Jim.

242
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:34,080
And you mentioned like an interesting thing that I, that I want one more
and that is kind of like a equipment, front.

243
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:41,760
And this is something we mentioned briefly before we started recording
this podcast, is that there is a traditional equipment,

244
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,840
scale required, traditional bow, compound bow.

245
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:51,920
But then when you look at the compound
bow, well, it's nothing but traditional.

246
00:20:51,920 --> 00:21:01,600
You have, you know, space age materials and you have a proceed precision
machining and 3D printing and all that technology.

247
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:12,080
I would argue that even if I go and buy a new rifle, like a tick,
or whatever, new rifle, decent rifle, it's actually technologically

248
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:20,440
very old and obsolete compared to when I go and buy a new compound bow,
which is all the latest it is.

249
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,120
So I'm curious, like what's your what's your view? What's your comments?

250
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:31,800
Maybe on this because this is, this is one of the things that I often
hear like, oh, this is like traditional, like, not traditional at all.

251
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,240
Yes. It's having shot both compounds and,

252
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,880
traditional recurve and shot animals with both.

253
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:47,520
I have mixed feelings on it
with respect to a, a traditional bow recurve longbow.

254
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:53,040
When you pull a 65 pound bow back, you're holding 65 pounds,
so you can't hold it for long, right?

255
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:58,840
You got to pull back and shoot, and you're shooting instinctively,
meaning no sights,

256
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,160
when you are with a compound. Of course.

257
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,280
We talked about the advantage of being you
pull it back and there's a release.

258
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,920
So if you're pulling back 65,
maybe you're only holding 3035 at full draw so you can hold for longer.

259
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:14,760
Let the animal get close
and then you have a oftentimes a trigger release so you can hold it.

260
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,000
And when you release you're not,
you know, relying on your fingers doing the work.

261
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,000
You're just pulling a trigger.
So you get a good clean release more frequently.

262
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,840
So those advances are normal and have, you know, evolved.

263
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,320
And yet on the one hand,

264
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,880
you know, I'm in favor of anything that helps
people make a clean, humane kill shot.

265
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:39,280
Like, to me, that's the most important thing, respecting the animal
and making a good, clean, humane shot.

266
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:45,280
And so things like sight pins and releases on a compound bow

267
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:51,280
enable the average hunter to more accurately place
a shot on an animal and have a humane kill.

268
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:52,800
So there.

269
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:58,480
So having said that, when you start getting to advancements like,

270
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:04,480
both sites that have, magnification or bow sites
that have lighted pins and magnify,

271
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:13,960
and the ability to turn a dial to adjust to, you know, 27 yards
or 36 yards or both sites that have integrated rangefinders in them.

272
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:15,360
Yeah, I heard that.

273
00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:20,680
That's the that's the latest, right,
with the bow bow site with the range finder. Okay.

274
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:21,600
So there you go.

275
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:27,600
So so then then you say, well wow,
those really make it much easier for someone

276
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:35,160
to effectively range an animal, dial in their sight
and make a clean shot at further distances.

277
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,480
Jim, how do you feel about that?

278
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:44,360
Well, again, I just said anything that helps an archer
make a clean, humane shot more consistently is a good thing.

279
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,280
But and those elements
I just discuss those advancements certainly do that.

280
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:50,560
Right? Yeah.

281
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:57,600
But at what point does the advancement in technology
start to reduce the level of challenge that's required to Beaumont,

282
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,280
and bring in a lot of folks into the sport that just want to have it.

283
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,520
They just want to hunt deer more frequently and make it easy. You bet.

284
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,240
And by the way,
you can make the same argument about the crossbow, right?

285
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:17,000
It's absolutely it makes you, you know, more more proficient,
and it makes you, you know, more likely to have a quick

286
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,720
and humane kill in the animal. So it's a it's interesting.

287
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,040
Let me just a quick story on that
because I have some experience with that.

288
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,400
I had never shot a crossbow until last year.

289
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:36,400
And last spring I was involved in a, in a hunting accident where I got,
I got, shot during Turkey season in my right side of my face,

290
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,600
and it put my right I am. Yeah. Oh, geez.

291
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:40,080
Yeah. Yeah.

292
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:40,400
Happens.

293
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,040
It's a really unfortunate, but but the point is,

294
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:49,040
they were able to restore some vision to my right eye,
but not to the point where I had any level of acuity.

295
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,440
You know, out of. It's
more like looking through a bottom of a Coke bottle.

296
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:58,000
So, I'm coming up to both season,
and I don't have the time to learn how to shoot left handed.

297
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,800
Right. And I don't want to miss both seasons.
One of my greatest passions in life.

298
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,080
And I'm really conflicted.

299
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,520
I'm like lawmakers. And we were going to Kansas. I'm like,
am I just going to go to Kansas?

300
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,320
And help with my brother in law?
Just hang out with him? Or am I going to hunt? But I can't both.

301
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:14,680
I can't shoot righty.

302
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,800
But I can't learn the left handed
and be accurate enough in the next six weeks.

303
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:20,880
So I'm in that conundrum.

304
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,680
How do I get accurate and make a good, humane, clean kill?

305
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,480
And so I ended up borrowing a crossbow.

306
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,200
Now, borrowing a weapon goes against my grain,
but generally for hunting, right?

307
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,400
Like you got to get a, you know, you got to get a weapon,
you got to get proficient at it.

308
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:46,080
But I felt like if I could be proficient at it and limit my range,
I could still enjoy the, you know, enjoy my Beaumont.

309
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:46,760
Right.

310
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,960
So I went to Kansas, had had a had a barrel bow.

311
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,320
I shot it a couple of days beforehand.

312
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,720
And when I shot at righty, it was iffy because of my vision.

313
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,840
So I had to shoot it lefty because my left eye is was is better.

314
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,800
And I got to where I could just nail
a target at 30 yards with a crossbow.

315
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,240
Like I'm talking like this in two days.

316
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:15,560
I maybe shot 30 arrows, 30 bolts, and I am just absolutely knocking the,
you know, the center out of the target.

317
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:17,920
So I'm like, I'm comfortable.

318
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,640
You know, Archer and I shot it out to 50.

319
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,160
I'm like, I'm comfortable out to 50.

320
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:26,760
But I'm I've never shot a deer with my bow
in all the years over 25 yards

321
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:32,680
in all the deer I shot, probably 45, 50 deer
never shot one over 25 years because I like to get them in close.

322
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:40,880
So the moral of the story is I go out hunting and, we're three days
into the hunt and I have an opportunity to shoot a really nice buck,

323
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,800
and I can't get many closer than 50 yards,

324
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,200
and he's out in the middle of a field and it's in the wide open.

325
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,160
He's with a doe. He's very. He's distracted. It's the perfect situation.
I can't get him any closer.

326
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:54,960
I've tried. I've rattled.

327
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,080
He's not getting any closer. He's going to move off.

328
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,960
And I ranged him and he was 50

329
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,880
and I shot him left handed off
and at no rest. Just left handed, 50 yards.

330
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,760
Shot him right in the heart. He went 50 yards and died.

331
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,160
And and I was shot.

332
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:17,000
But I felt so confident making that shot
because when I put that that weapon on him

333
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:23,240
and it was a scoped crossbow for I think it was a two power scope,
maybe, I put it right on his breadbasket.

334
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,080
I pulled the trigger. I just knew I was going to make a clean shot.

335
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,640
So I didn't violate any any of my, you know, ethos,
if you will, that way.

336
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,640
But after that hunt, I was reflecting on the fact that.

337
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:42,280
How easy was that for me to have never shot a crossbow
and then just picked it up a few days before, and I went out

338
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:49,200
during both season, and I shot a deer that I would not have shot with my
with my normal equipment, and I shot him at 50 yards.

339
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:50,800
Yes, I made a good clean kill,

340
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:58,760
but it it what it did was it it actually emphasized the primary beef
I have with allowing crossbows during both season.

341
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:04,600
And I did it and I did it legally and it enabled me to hunt.
And because I had this disability. Right.

342
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:10,600
And I and I enjoyed it for all that it was,
but it really highlights the advantage of a crossbow.

343
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:16,160
That's a great story, Jim. That's a
that's a great story. Congratulations on the book.

344
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,240
Yeah, it was interesting.

345
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,480
I never in my life thought I'd shoot a deer with a crossbow ever.

346
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:26,040
Yeah, and I did, and I, I took nothing away from the animal.

347
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:31,560
I love the experience. I enjoyed it,
but it really gave me a lot to reflect on, honestly.

348
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure, for sure. And that's a, that's a
that's a great story.

349
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:42,760
And you know, like sometimes things are happening in life
that made you try things that you would,

350
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:50,200
you will never try and then you enjoy it or at least have it like a,
you know, some thoughts about it, like you did.

351
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:58,080
Jim. So I think you it's a great moment now to kind of like a transition
to another part of this conversation.

352
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,120
You mentioned the word humane there quite a few times.

353
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:07,560
Yes. And obviously, well, obvious to me, maybe to other people as well.

354
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,120
This is one of the biggest,

355
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,360
arguments of the opponents of bow hunting.

356
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:20,960
And, you know, even on this podcast,
I spoke with, few bow hunters, but I also spoke with veterinarians and,

357
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:27,800
even accomplished hunters, rifle hunters who were expressing their,

358
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:34,320
you know, various level of disapproval for bow hunting based on the,

359
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,160
how humane that their shot is.

360
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:45,360
And it seems to me like the the most common argument is that the,

361
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:54,120
arrow is lacking the concussive power that they can concussive,
affect on the, on the animal where you have the, the,

362
00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:01,400
effect where the water in the eye,
it says a name that is eluding me right now, which, which has a,

363
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:07,800
the basically is the all the water in the body of
the animal is disturbed and creates like a wave.

364
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:12,360
It's, it's it's called hydro electric shock or something like that.

365
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,120
So it doesn't have a concussive barrier. Therefore it is less humane.

366
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:23,880
And I, you know, I think and this
that was also confirmed by many people who said like, well, why?

367
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,520
Why, you know, why is

368
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,800
causing that concussion to the animal.

369
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,200
How can you come to the conclusion that this is somehow more humane?

370
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,400
If you can shoot an animal that and we know those stars.

371
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,760
You shoot an animal, an animal.

372
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,640
Just look what happened
and then comes back to grazing and then falls over.

373
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,800
They didn't even know what hit him.

374
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,360
But then the argument is like, yeah,
but how many shots like that really happens?

375
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:57,360
It's one every now and then
and then again, fundamentally it's an issue, mate. So

376
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:08,120
once again, I would ask you to once again on this podcast,
unpack this argument and how, how you feel about it.

377
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:13,960
How does that, said in your opinion, it's a great question.

378
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,960
It has some complexities and nuance to it,
but it's a great question. And so

379
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,360
I'm no,

380
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:23,880
doctor or surgeon. Right.

381
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,360
But what I do know is that, having studied it is that,

382
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,280
an arrow kills through hemorrhage,

383
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:31,480
right?

384
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,200
Like blood loss or lungs, you know, for blood,

385
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:40,520
you know, it's just killed by hammered, whereas a bullet kills by shock,
concussive power and damage to the material.

386
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:41,960
Whatever it hits, right.

387
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,240
And so I can only speak through that.

388
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,360
I'll only speak through experience here.

389
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,760
And that is to say, I've shot, you know, quite a few deer with my bow,

390
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:56,760
and I've shot a fair number of deer
with both a rifle and black powder and a shotgun slug.

391
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,480
And I will say that,

392
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:06,360
during all the years of bow hunting,
I may have lost 2 or 3 deer that I hit, that I didn't recover

393
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:08,880
in all the years of bow hunting.

394
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,320
Right? 35 years.

395
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:11,960
So. Well, why?

396
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:12,720
Hey, wait a minute.

397
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:13,200
That seems like.

398
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,720
Well, it is low, but it's because,

399
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:22,600
of the commitment to practice and be proficient

400
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,240
and make sure the animal is close enough to make a clean shot.

401
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:34,440
And having the discipline to pass up anything that doesn't pass that
litmus test of, I'm going to make a clean shot on this animal, right?

402
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,440
So I've had to pass up
some really nice animals at 35, 40 yards with my recurve.

403
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,800
I just not going to shoot them. Right.

404
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,880
Because I thought I probably would have voted them
and I probably would have at that distance with a recurve.

405
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:56,760
So the animals that I've shot with my bow,
I would say ballpark 80% of them after I hit them in some cases.

406
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:02,520
Well, they died within a hundred yards
there. Went through them all the way, all the way through them.

407
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:07,840
And then they ran off. And I typically would see them fall
or hear them fall within 100 yards, in some cases less,

408
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:09,760
because when you double lung

409
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:15,760
an animal with a arrow and it goes all the way through them like you
said, they just they flinch,

410
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,480
especially if you don't hit a rib.

411
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,800
And I've had them go back to grazing and tip over in eight seconds.

412
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,600
If you hit a rib with your arrow
and they feel that, you know, they'll they'll run for a while,

413
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:33,720
but they'll often stop after 30 or 40 yards
and then that blood flow to their brain ceases

414
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:39,720
because you let the air out of their lungs
and they die in less than 10s, like literally 7 or 8 seconds.

415
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,320
And if you look at them on film, that's about how long it takes

416
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:50,480
with a rifle, unless you shoot them right in the head or in the,
you know, or in the, you know, even in the spine.

417
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:51,560
Right?

418
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,760
The animals I've shot with a rifle have,
some of them that have tipped over right where I shot them.

419
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,360
But oftentimes you hit them and they run even if they're hit.

420
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,800
Well, because what kills them is that shock
and ultimately that blood loss. But,

421
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,360
I would say that

422
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:13,000
I don't have any evidence, personal evidence
that would suggest that that killing with a rifle

423
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:19,600
is more humane than taking an animal with a bow,
because that just hasn't been my experience.

424
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,800
And when an animal is shot with a bow, oftentimes
it's not that concussive bang,

425
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,360
you know, that hits them
and that bullet expands and explodes inside them.

426
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,720
It just goes through
it must it feels like a, you know, fly prick sometimes, right?

427
00:34:32,720 --> 00:34:35,600
Because they don't get spooked and all wild eyed and run off.

428
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:41,040
They'll run off 30, 40, 50 yards and stop and then fall over. So

429
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:46,320
any I know that it's a big topic out there,
but in my experience that just hasn't been the case.

430
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,840
If you apply the discipline to make a clean shot
and don't take those marginal shots.

431
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:56,840
And that's where the problem is, guys pushing that envelope
and they wound a lot more deer and that is a problem.

432
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,480
I'm just calling that out.

433
00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:59,120
Yeah.

434
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:05,120
No. And and the and you're right because this is like a
the next argument that follows closely by right.

435
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:14,240
And just to finish off on the on the concussive power versus versus
just, just, you know, sharp arrows cutting through the animal eye,

436
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:21,160
you know, like, I feel like if I, if I were a deer and I had to choose,
I would, I would always choose to be shot by the bow

437
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:28,800
and by the arrow because they, I don't I just
I don't see the argument of the concussive power making it more humane.

438
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:35,640
If the time it takes is roughly
the same, you're actually saving the animal

439
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:42,080
this extra concussive power and the, you know, sound of the gunshot
and all these things.

440
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,760
So but that's that's just my my comment on it.

441
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:52,920
So let's talk about the difficulty because like you said,
this is another argument that comes next that,

442
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,600
oh the guys are pushing the envelope.

443
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,120
They're they're taking the shots that they have no business taking.

444
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:05,120
My view on this is that, well, there are people who are taking shots
with the rifle that they have no business taking.

445
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:06,640
Yes. So,

446
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,960
that argument actually doesn't cut to me too much about,
you know, who am I?

447
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,040
I live in a country that prohibits bow hunting. I never bow hunt.

448
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,760
So that's what
I have you on the podcast to talk about these, these things.

449
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:27,800
But the argument then is that because of such a high degree of skill
required,

450
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:34,120
bow hunters are putting a lot of effort into training,
into honing their skill, into shooting arrows.

451
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:41,880
Then, compared to the rifle hunters
who I know, people who are just, you know,

452
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:48,520
they they they never own the range, they just shooting on the animals
because it's so easy, you just putting in a crosshair and bang.

453
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:56,040
And then when they miss they go on the range, do zero of the skull
because, oh, I'm just I just missed just missed this dog.

454
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:03,080
And so then the level of training, you know, there's so in
my head is like,

455
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:12,960
you are equally likely to take a shot that you shouldn't be able to
you shouldn't be taking if you're, you know, this kind of person.

456
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:21,120
But the bow hunter, by definition, at least,
should be way more skilled and trained because of a difficulty of it.

457
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,040
Now, this is my, you know, borrowed opinions and what I think.

458
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,240
I want to hear your opinion is, is there any truth to that?

459
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:32,360
Is there are there any caveats to that?

460
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,720
What I said, I think it's a it's a fair

461
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:41,880
it's a fair observation from, from your perspective in that,

462
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,560
knowing, you know, over the years, hundreds of bow
hunters and many, many gun hunters,

463
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:54,560
most of the bow hunters I know, Tommy,
are, are very committed to the sport, right?

464
00:37:54,560 --> 00:38:00,480
Because, you know, they enjoy archery, they shoot 3D shoots,
you know, that that they,

465
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:06,480
around the area that they live in, the three dimensional targets
where they're set up at different ranges to test their skill,

466
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,640
you know, estimate ranges and shoot and score.

467
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,000
And they're out here out west where I live in Oregon.

468
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,880
Now, there's they they train physically cardio
because there's big hills, right? Big mountains out here.

469
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,320
And so they know they're going to have to be physically fit
and to be able to execute a shot.

470
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,560
So they're very committed, to the sport.

471
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:31,440
And therefore they really work on their proficiency with their weapon.

472
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:37,080
I know many gun hunters that are also very committed to shooting

473
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:43,400
accurately and go to the range and would never go hunting with a rifle
without shooting in before setting in beforehand.

474
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:49,520
But I know probably an equal or greater number
that fall into the category you describe, which is like, oh, it's,

475
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,120
you know, you've been to the range this year.
Oh no, my, my, my rifle was cited in last year.

476
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,720
I killed a nice bike with it. I'm good to go.

477
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:58,440
Well, really, you know what I mean. Yeah. You've pointed that out.

478
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,240
And so they go out in a mess and I've had guys go, oh go to the range.

479
00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:06,920
And it's, you know, up, up a foot off
and they miss or worse wound an animal

480
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:12,920
because they didn't feel
they needed to take the time because of the proficiency of a firearm.

481
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,160
So I think what you characterized is reasonably true.

482
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:20,200
But but with any sport, especially blood sports
that we're talking about here, just to be, you know, candid,

483
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:22,320
there are folks that

484
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:28,320
that endeavor to do it correctly
and are really respectful about the animal and the sport and so on.

485
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:35,880
And there are some smaller proportion that want to take the easy
route, are willing to chance a long shot at an animal

486
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:41,880
even if they wounded in the event that they might take it,
you know, doing things that they shouldn't do.

487
00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:44,040
And I think that that exists in any sport.

488
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:50,040
But when you're talking about shooting animals,
I think it's, it's really unfortunate that that can be the case.

489
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:57,880
And the easier you make it, the in my opinion,
the more it invites casual, less committed folks.

490
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:00,760
And that gets right back to the conversation we had on crossbows.

491
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,600
And anything that makes it easy

492
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:08,600
invites more people not willing to necessarily
put the time in to say, oh, if it's that easy, I'll give it a try.

493
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,160
And that to me is is it?

494
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:12,480
That rubs me the wrong way.

495
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,960
Yeah. They're more focus on the outcome
rather than on the process. Nailed it.

496
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:22,680
You just nailed it. That's right.
What about the wounding rates? Wounding rates are higher with a bolt.

497
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,600
I think there is no no questions about it. Or are they.

498
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,680
Well, it's all about shot placement right. And so

499
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:38,880
the opportunity to wound an animal with a bow is definitely there
because just the angle of the animal.

500
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:39,240
Right.

501
00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:45,360
Like if it's dead broadside and you shoot it right in the,
you know, right behind the front, like you'll take out both lungs.

502
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:54,000
But if that animal's quartering to you even slightly 15 degrees,
same shot, you might hit one lung and miss the second one, right?

503
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:59,880
That animal or one lung hit animal can run hundreds of yards. Right.

504
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,680
And so you can run them

505
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,560
and but but most are fatally wounded, right.

506
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,280
Like most are fatally wounded.

507
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:16,280
So that's where skills of tracking, understanding animal behavior,
where they where they typically go

508
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,320
and their behavior after they're mortally wounded is really important.

509
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,920
And, you know, I take tremendous pride on my ability to track animals.

510
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,920
And I don't give up. I've tracked them for days,

511
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,880
and hours on my hands and knees
and have a very, very high recovery rate.

512
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:38,360
As a consequence, I don't give up if I don't see specks of blood
like I'm following tracks turned over leaves.

513
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,440
I'm following directionally where I believe they're going to go.
I understand my property.

514
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,160
I know where they would likely to go
if they were one London. They were hit and they're going to go downhill.

515
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,000
They're going to go toward water
and they're going to go and take cover. And I look there.

516
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:56,000
So if you really work at it, you
you can recover a high, high percentage of any wounded animals.

517
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,800
And when they're not fatally wounded with a bow.

518
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,160
Right. It's just like a clean slice. They often recover

519
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:06,200
like they often do.

520
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,080
I've killed many, not many.

521
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:14,280
I've killed a handful of of deer that had a broad head in their hip,
and they were fine, right.

522
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,360
Or they had a scar, but they were fine. So,

523
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:25,000
there is a, an opportunity to own an animal
no matter the weapon you use.

524
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:30,520
But as a bow hunter, I'm
very committed to because they die by hemorrhage.

525
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,640
You follow blood, right?

526
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:38,200
And, you can recover most animals if they're fatally hit, without doubt.

527
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:39,640
So I'll just. I'll just leave it there.

528
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,600
That's one of the reasons we talked about advancements in technology
earlier,

529
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:48,600
you know, where do they make sense and where
where do they maybe go against the rules of fair chase, lighted knocks,

530
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,720
you know that as it's lighted, knock on the back of an arrow,
it lights up when you shoot it.

531
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:55,680
Yeah, I know, but you can explain to to the listeners.

532
00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:01,560
But yeah, the knock is the is the end of the arrow
that attaches to your string, and it's made out of plastic.

533
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,400
And today they offer those that that light up when you shoot them.

534
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,480
They light up like with a little LED light,
like light green or light pink.

535
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,040
So when you release the arrow you can see it fly and see it hit.

536
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:15,000
And and I

537
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:21,000
believe that's a good advancement in technology
because the greater knowledge you have on where the arrow hit

538
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:26,800
hit the animal, the better odds are you're going to recover it
because you're going to know where you hit.

539
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,520
That's a good thing.

540
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:35,960
When you have I for years shot broad heads
that were traditional broad heads, like the old bear broadhead

541
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,920
where you were, you actually,
it was like a razor, but you had to sharpen it yourself.

542
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:43,440
So I'd sit there in front of the TV and sharpen it myself for hours
so I could cut air off.

543
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:48,720
My whole arm would be bald because I use that as a test.
My left arm would be just completely bald.

544
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:49,000
Get it?

545
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,840
Going into Boston because I was testing it, right? And like, yeah,
if I can shave hair off my arm, it's it's good.

546
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,440
It's it's it's right.

547
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,120
But what I found

548
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:04,720
is I tried one year the new mechanical broadhead,
which fundamentally I was against.

549
00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:09,720
Right. It's like, you know, it's another technological gimmick. Right.

550
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:13,840
But I tried and tested the mechanical broadhead,

551
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:15,960
with a 1.5in cutting radius.

552
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,400
And the very first year I shot with one,
I shot him, you know, through both lungs.

553
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,360
And the blood trail was amazing.
I mean it because of the cutting radius.

554
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,680
If you kill by hemorrhage, the more cutting, the better.

555
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:33,120
So my point is I'm in, I believe mechanical broadhead

556
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,120
are beneficial to the animal because of the larger cut radius.

557
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:43,400
Quicker kills, easier recovery because the blood trail
is much more substantial for people who are listening to this.

558
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,240
The mechanical broadhead is the brow side.

559
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:51,360
Like the
the blades of the broadhead opens on the contact with the animal. Yes.

560
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:58,240
So that that improves the flight of the arrow,
I guess because it's, it's it doesn't have the broadhead

561
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,520
with the, with the blades on it cracked open.

562
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:09,480
And then because of that it can open too much, like I said,
larger extend larger blades basically, which makes a bigger cuts.

563
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:11,240
So so exactly.

564
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:12,120
You explain it perfectly.

565
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:17,320
So the arrow is much more likely to hit where you're aiming it,
meaning a good clean kill.

566
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:26,280
And when it hits and those blades open up, it makes a very large
cutting radius, which then leads to a very, very good blood trail.

567
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,720
And that's what you want.
You want to recover the animals you you hit, right. That's the key.

568
00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:39,720
So those advancements in technology help recovery of animals,
which I'm in favor of absolutely makes sense to me.

569
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:40,680
Makes sense.

570
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:49,600
And and look, we, we people who are more interested in their, you know,
details of technical leaders of all the elements of the bow and arrow.

571
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:50,520
We have an episode,

572
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:53,800
on the podcast also, it's called,

573
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:59,800
I think, Sizzling Arrows, where we go into great
depth on all the types of arrows and things like that.

574
00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:01,200
So I'm just not one.

575
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,960
I don't want to go into technicals on it.

576
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,360
Because we have way more interesting things here to cover.

577
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:16,000
Oh, one other things that you mentioned that I also heard earlier
is that the wounded animals, the animals wounded with a with a

578
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:26,440
as a result of the, of a inaccurate bow shot are more likely to recover
while the animals that are, that are, wounded by a gunshot

579
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:33,080
that's usually dead animal only it can take weeks or,
you know, long time.

580
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:39,480
So that's that's you're you kind of confirmed that, as Mark.

581
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:40,320
Okay.

582
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:46,080
So I just want to switch gears
here, a little bit and talking about how long

583
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,640
in, on average, how long it

584
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:56,080
takes a person to practice with a bow before they get proficient.

585
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:06,720
In enough to be able to go and execute a shot at the animal,
having in mind that

586
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:13,080
executing shot at the animal is quite a different deal
than executing, show that the range,

587
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,280
because of the emotions and the buck fever and all those things.

588
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:27,240
So I'm going with this thing here, you know, like
if anyone wants to try and, you know, maybe even the question is like,

589
00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:35,560
if people like myself or other who live in Ireland, in the UK,
they want to go hunting, they want to go bow hunting,

590
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:44,760
and they, they can go to Spain or to France or to Hungary,
whatever that place in Europe, or maybe even fly to the US

591
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,640
to do this, you know, bow hunting experience.

592
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:51,800
But they need to prepare.

593
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:56,680
They cannot just, you know, how long it takes to become proficient.

594
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,680
And what would be your advice to person,

595
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:06,680
you know, like, again, who lives in Europe
and wants to prepare themselves for that sort of experience?

596
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,800
It starts with what equipment we're using.

597
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,640
So I'm going to start with the most common, which is a compound bow.

598
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,520
And when I say a compound bow, I'm going to assume that there's a
a sight,

599
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:23,600
a set of sight pins on the, on the bow bow side and a release,
because that's the most common setup you see today.

600
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:25,080
Okay.

601
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:30,720
So my son is a good example because he just took up archery this year.

602
00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:31,640
We got him a bow,

603
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,800
set up the way I just described.

604
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,920
And he became

605
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:43,920
pretty proficient at the range in a matter of, let's say four weeks,

606
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,720
five weeks. Now he's going three, four times a week.

607
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:51,640
You know, he goes to the range, he's shooting a 20 yards
and he's extending out to 30.

608
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,360
But he's really focused on just focus on your form.

609
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,280
You know meaning you release nice and smooth, no jerky.

610
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,080
You know, just nice and smooth. Focus on the fundamentals.

611
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,120
And, you know, in in 4 to 6 weeks.

612
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:08,040
And when he last he came up here,
he was shooting a very tight group at 30 yards.

613
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:13,320
Meaning I take when I see a tiger,
I'm talking about less than three inches. Okay. Like that bit.

614
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,480
So that's good. That's pretty impressive.

615
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,600
And now the question is becomes, well, is he proficient enough to hunt?

616
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,000
And at that point, no.

617
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:27,120
And however he's proficient enough to shoot accurately at a range then.

618
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,920
So that's let's call that six weeks. I think that's reasonable.

619
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,000
You know, a couple days a week, three days a week for six weeks.

620
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:38,560
You can be pretty proficient with it,
should be expressive with the hours on the range. Right.

621
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:42,480
Because like six weeks ago.
Yeah. About three times a week for six weeks.

622
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:42,840
Yeah.

623
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:49,080
I mean literally I mean if you shoot 2 or 3 times a week,
but you're shooting about, you know, 75 arrows at a time, right.

624
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,920
And you do that over a period of six weeks. The equipment is so good
these days.

625
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,520
You can get proficient at the range. Okay.

626
00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:01,680
So in terms of elapsed time, I don't know how many hours that is,
but it's not an inordinate amount of hours.

627
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:02,840
Right. It's reasonable.

628
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,240
The next step before you would ever go

629
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:12,560
hunting is you need to go out and shoot
3D targets, different angles at unknown distances.

630
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,640
That's the next step.

631
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:15,840
So. Right.

632
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:16,840
Because when you know I'm shooting

633
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:22,840
20 yards, 30 yards, 40 yards, even if you're shooting deer targets
at an archery range, everything is controlled.

634
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:23,280
Everything.

635
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,000
You know, the distance,
the next step is to go shoot a 3D range where you're shooting

636
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:33,000
at three dimensional targets of of deer or wild boar or elk or whatever
they have as the targets.

637
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,200
And you're shooting at different distances.

638
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:41,200
So you might be shooting at 18 yards, 27 yards, 36 yards,
whatever it is. And,

639
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:48,480
you have to determine, do you want to use a rangefinder
or do you want to estimate sight without a range fighter?

640
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,680
For all my years of hunting, I just
I was able to estimate yardages without that.

641
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:58,440
But, but I would recommend having a range finder to know
if there's nothing wrong with that, because, again, good clean kill.

642
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:05,440
So if you spend another, let's say 4 to 6 weeks elapsed time
or whatever time you can spend,

643
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:07,560
shooting three

644
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:13,560
dimensional targets, unknown ranges at more realistic angles
like you would in the field.

645
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,520
That's the next step.

646
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,520
So let's call that another four weeks or so.

647
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:22,360
Transfer
how much time you can at most of us work, so you can't do it every day.

648
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,360
And then the last step

649
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:32,040
would be to make sure that those last few practice sessions, shooting
three dimensional targets, either in your yard or at a range,

650
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:39,680
you're wearing the clothes you're going to hunt with, you're
wearing gloves, everything, face mask or whatever you're going to wear

651
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:46,840
hunting you're wearing on the range and you're shooting
your actual broadhead, and you do that for a couple of weeks.

652
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:52,080
Those are the phases.
So if you think about that, you say, you know what?

653
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:59,000
In, you know, in 4 or 5 months over the period of a spring summer,
could you be starting from zero?

654
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,720
Could you pre-prepared and equipped, if you put that time in

655
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:08,880
to go hunting confidently and make a humane kill on a big game
animal with a bow, I would say that's reasonable.

656
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,560
Oh, and then might I might say that that was,

657
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,000
that was shorter period of time that I thought.

658
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:22,840
But again, it's very compressed effort
because it's like a concert stunt going, going, going.

659
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:28,560
But so in other words, like if you're if someone would like to go,

660
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:35,040
for, you know, bow hunting experience trip, next year
if they start today,

661
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:41,840
then by that time next year, they should be more than able to go
and execute humane shot at the animal.

662
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:43,320
That's correct.

663
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:49,680
And, and, you know, as a nonresident,
I believe you can apply for, deer permits in the United States.

664
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:54,360
Yeah. I mean, like,
you know, it's it's one of those things if you want, you can do it.

665
00:52:55,640 --> 00:53:00,600
It's it's just, I think very unfortunate that that we can't do it
where we live.

666
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:05,040
You know, like,
I came into hunt and regular listeners of this podcast know this story.

667
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,640
I said it many times that, you know,
I came to hunting very late in my life.

668
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:13,560
I was in that early 40s, late, late 30s, for sure, less than a decade.

669
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,440
And I was an angler.

670
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:21,720
And I wanted bow hunting,
you know, obviously American church shows and the TV's like, oh, I gonna

671
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,920
I feel like I'm ready to graduate to hunting from fishing.

672
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:32,280
And I want to go bow hunting because it was like,
so natural and like, more like a fishing rod.

673
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:41,440
You know, you have a good bendy and, element and then you have a line
and all these things and they're like, no illegal.

674
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:46,440
And I didn't even want to go into the whole effort of getting, like,
a firearm permit and all those things.

675
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,360
And it turns out like, no, I have no choice. I had to do this.

676
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:55,400
But this bow hunting thing other than, you know, talking about it
and educating people through the podcast,

677
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,240
it is in the back of my head.

678
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:02,280
I would definitely like to, like to try it,

679
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:10,320
to wrap this up, Jim,
what would be like a foolproof advice for you, arguments

680
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:17,400
for people who are looking favorably at bow hunting
and they find themselves,

681
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:28,480
any in the, companion of other hunters, rifle hunters
who are, you know, usually don't have any experience with bow hunting.

682
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:33,360
And discussion starts about like, oh, you know, this is inhumane.

683
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,560
And should they what would be your like, a foolproof advice

684
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:45,080
how to conduct that conversation and,
and give the give the fair representation of bow hunting.

685
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,640
It's an interesting question. I've never been asked that question.

686
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,360
And I would say that

687
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:54,680
Isabel Hunter, if I was in the company of, of
of of a lot of gun hunters and they were, they were,

688
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,200
you know, challenging the humaneness of my sport.

689
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:03,520
Right. Is that what you're suggesting? Right. Yeah.

690
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:10,440
My response would be that no matter the weapon you choose to use,
there are certain standards

691
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:16,920
that that you have to and certain level of of skills and commitment
you have to put forth to ensure a humane kill,

692
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:26,160
whether it's a rifle or a bow or a crossbow or a muzzleloader,
there is a certain level of of of commitment

693
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:32,240
you have to make to become proficient and then discipline,
you have to apply on what shot you will and will take.

694
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:41,360
And what I can say for myself and other bow hunters that I know
that are as committed as I am, is that we make quick, humane kills

695
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:47,160
at a high, high rate 95 plus percent of the time.

696
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:48,360
Right?

697
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:54,440
And another state I would say is
I've only missed 2 or 3 deer in my entire life.

698
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,960
Missed it completely because I just don't take long shots.

699
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:01,880
It's only 25 yards. I'm not going to miss a deer at 25 yards.

700
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,200
The ones that I did miss went down a hill and went shot over the back.

701
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:09,120
So I don't miss many.
I know a lot of rifle hunters that have missed a lot of deer. Why?

702
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:14,880
Because they're taking shots that they shouldn't
take, running animals, distances that they shouldn't.

703
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:16,960
They're just taking a pot shot. Right.

704
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:23,280
So my sport is any not any more, more or less humane than your method.

705
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:31,360
If we apply the same level of commitment to knowing our weapon and
understanding its limits and being disciplined about what shot we take.

706
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:33,720
So let's let's go grab a beer.

707
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:34,720
That would be my response.

708
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:35,840
It's a great response.

709
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:42,080
And, you know, like this is like so many things that for example,
some hunters in Europe, like in Germany and France,

710
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:47,040
they they think like, oh, bow hunting is inhumane.
But then they, they should go running animals.

711
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,000
It's like a how that is humane.

712
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:54,080
Like if bow running is inhumane
and you're just shooting like a running deer and they're running right.

713
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,680
But that's, that's a, completely separate, conversation.

714
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:03,480
And I just want to, end up with, with a story this year
in, in, in May was

715
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:09,480
it was in an April
I was on the, on the symposium and the like a CIC event

716
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:19,520
and I was talking with the, with the old hunter from Liechtenstein
and we started and there was also people from the US and the and the,

717
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:22,920
not a hunter, but the guy who

718
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:29,680
is, really involved in conservation from the US was sitting at the table
with us and the topic, got into the bow hunting.

719
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:36,600
And, you know, we started talk about hunting, and I look at the guy
from the Liechtenstein and I said, oh, there we go.

720
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:41,160
Right. And then finally I goes like,
so tell me what you think about bow hunting.

721
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:43,280
You're you're against this. You don't like it.

722
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:47,640
And this is like a hardcore old school European hunter.

723
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:52,440
And he goes like, you know what? I was somewhere
I don't remember a square.

724
00:57:52,440 --> 00:58:01,520
And there was a bow hunter, and he shook the deer,
and I was shocked, in shock how quickly that animal went down.

725
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,440
So I am not against bow hunting. I'm I'm fine with bow hunting.

726
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:13,080
And I was like, yes, this probably the first time I hear like
an old school European rifle hunter who actually says like it's great.

727
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:13,880
Like the animal.

728
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:19,440
Like because he saw that, you know, animals hit by an arrow,
it'll be running with you. Whatever happens.

729
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:21,160
And he was he was shocked.

730
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:25,560
He couldn't believe how quickly that animal just just expired.
And that was it.

731
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:28,800
So that's, kind of like a confirmation.

732
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:38,080
And maybe that is that once you see something and once you try it, once
you experience that firsthand, then you are in a much better position

733
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:45,480
to, you know, offer opinions rather than just borrow an opinion
and just repeat it without even, you know, experiencing,

734
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:48,560
editing yourself.

735
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,800
Jim, it's been great pleasure talking with you.

736
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:57,800
Just wondering, do you have any any words of wisdom to all the hunters
and otherwise who are listening to this podcast?

737
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:03,840
I do, I do as I was thinking about where you started in your listeners,
most of them don't have an opportunity

738
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,200
to hunt because of where they live in the restrictions.

739
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:12,000
And, I was thinking that what I wish and hope for all of your listeners

740
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:19,080
who truly love the sport of hunting, I wish and hope that they all
have an opportunity to bow out in their in their hunting lifetimes.

741
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:25,280
And and they make the commitment to do so
because the level of intimacy and adrenaline

742
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:31,600
and the feeling that you get
when you get that close to an animal and harvest it on its terms,

743
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:39,120
and you had to fool it and make a good, clean
shot, is a level of adrenaline and intimacy that I've never got in

744
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:45,160
all the years that I've gone, had, and I've certainly had, you know,
I've certainly taken many animals with my rifle, which I enjoy as well.

745
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,200
It's just a completely different feel.

746
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:55,560
And I hope you and your listeners who are have the interest,
have that make that opportunity for themselves happen.

747
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,160
Absolutely.
Thanks very much, Jim. Okay. My pleasure. Good talking to you.

748
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:03,720
Thank you for listening.

749
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:09,240
If you enjoy the podcast,
please leave me five star rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

750
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,120
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751
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:17,720
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