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Is bow hunting inhumane?

Is killing an animal with an arrow and inhumane thing to do?

Well, there is a lot of folks who insist the answer is yes, and that is somehow reflected in the regulations.

As hunting with archery tackle is illegal in most of Europe, and I am not surprised if those opinions are expressed

by, let's say, a veterinary professional with particular interest in animal welfare,

who on top of that had very little, if none, experience and exposure to bow hunting.

But when those opinions are expressed by hunters and almost bothered

especially that those hunters had also no exposure, no real world exposure to bow hunting.

And in a second part of this podcast, you will hear a story about a hardcore old European hunter

who changed his mind about bow hunting once he took part and participated in a hunt with archery tackle.

So that's in the second part of this podcast,

but I think it is my role here in this podcast to be bringing you different opinions, different points of view.

And this is, probably third or fourth episode.

Where are we going to talk about bow hunting?

So today we are joined by an expert bow hunter, Jim Clark.

Jim Hunts with archery tackle close to four decades.

He hunts with a compound bow with a recurve bow. He hunted with a crossbow.

And obviously he handled with a rifle.

So his opinions and his views, I think that are very well thought out.

And he has a wealth of experience, and he's sharing that with us today.

And as usual in those episodes, I'll post him a little bit, asking him questions

about hunting with archery, tackle and bow hunting that might be uncomfortable.

And, yeah, you're gonna hear his answers.

In the episode, we also discuss the development and progress in, technology of archery, tackle

and how this might or might not impact the humaneness of an endeavor.

And also, Jim will share some of his hunting stories.

So overall, that was a very enjoyable episode to record,

and I hope you will learn a thing or two about bow hunting and hunting with archery tackle.

And just to be clear, if you are against bow hunting or you think it is an inhumane thing to do,

I'm not expecting you to change your mind after listening to this episode.

But maybe, just maybe, on the surface of your strong opinion, a little crack appears and if that happens, my job is done.

This is what we do.

In this podcast, we discuss issues related to environments and human wildlife interactions that are sometimes controversial,

maybe not clear cut, and the role of the podcast is to present different angles and different opinions on those aspects.

So this is one of those episodes. And as always, before I let you enjoy this episode of the podcast.

Just a reminder that if you're interested in the subjects we're discussing here

and you want to dive deeper in those subjects, you should subscribe to my newsletter, the so-called Conservation and Science Newsletter.

The link is obviously in the description of the show, and that newsletter comes together

with podcast episodes, and it usually contains some other reading and other materials

that will allow you to dive deeper into the subjects we discuss on the podcast.

And also you'll get notifications there about live events, weather, events.

When I'm speaking live. Or maybe I'm just attending participating.

So if it's something that interests you, you can join the event, you can go to the event.

And if you see me there, come up and say hello.

So, that's it for that introduction.

And so now, ladies and gentlemen, Jim Clark and hunting with archery tackle.

And. Jim, welcome to the show.

It's a pleasure to have you in the pleasure. Talk with you.

Thank you. Tammy, I really appreciate it. Been looking forward to our conversation. Yes.

And as, listeners of this podcast know, and as you already know as well, I,

I'm really keen, to talk about bow hunting any time I can, because bow hunting is just not a thing in Europe, and I.

I hope that maybe if there's going to be like 1 or 2 people who starts, you know,

pushing right buttons to get that bow hunting going in Europe in, in the to the greater extent, because there are

some places in France, I think that in Spain there are some provinces where you can bow hunt, but in general you cannot bow hunting.

Where I am in Ireland, it's a no no in the UK as well, where the probably majority of the listeners are.

So, you know, I'm very keen to talk about it and we, we have a lot of talk.

So before we start, Jim, could you give us, like, a, like a brief introduction to,

who you are, what you do, and how you got started, in bow hunting?

Yeah, absolutely. Tommy.

So my name is Jim Clark, and I grew up in Chicago, Illinois, so in a city, fairly good sized city. And,

since a young age, I always love the outdoors.

Just it was just one of those things where I was always taking my fishing rod and going out to the local pond and things of that nature.

And, and once a year, my dad would take us on a, on a pheasant hunting trip.

So I got exposed to hunting a little bit through my father and his business.

But he was not a passionate big game hunter, nor a bow hunter.

But I just fell in love with it.

With the with the whole lifestyle of of pursuing game

and the tremendous challenge and fulfillment that I got out of that, even even though I started small time.

And so as I got older, I started working in a sporting goods store and was introduced.

The sporting goods store sold bows and I was like, wow, that is cool.

And I'd shot the little bows when I was a kid, right? But never a real bow.

And so I started shooting at that store, and I fell in love with archery, and I got introduced

to the concept of bow hunting for deer, which was much easier to get a tag.

Right. So. So the reason I started bow hunting was I had never gun hunted up to that point.

But there was a lot of areas that had public ground that you could bow hunt.

Only where I grew up, outside of Chicago, Illinois, they didn't allow gun hunting, just buying.

So I'm like, well, this is perfect for me.

I can I can learn a new sport that's pursuing big game, which I thought was the sport of kings and still believe that.

And I started and I didn't really know what I was doing.

So I did a lot of reading and I didn't really have any mentors at the time.

So I just started figuring it out with another friend of mine.

So that's how I got started in bow planning, and I've pursued it my whole life from from that kind of from that starting point.

So you're you're never you never started, like, with a rifle and then graduated to the bow.

You just started straight up.

Bow was the first type of hunting you started.

I did, and that's a little unusual mill based on all the friends that I now know, that bow and a lot of them started,

in different ways, mainly started gun hunting, and then wanted more of a challenge and bonding.

But I started bonding because it was the it was the only opportunity that I had.

And, and, and it was very accessible, right.

In many state, in many areas in the United States, both seasons starts way earlier than rifle season.

It's three and some cases four months long, whereas rifle season or even, primitive weapon season is very short.

So it opened up a lot of opportunity over with longer seasons

and created a great challenge.

Right. Because bow hunting is certainly very challenging, particularly with the, the,

the equipment that we had 35 years ago when I started up.

But I, but I, but I fell in love with it and since then I've done more gun hunting and so on.

But I've shot and harvested many more animals with a bow than a gun.

What is for you the main difference between bow hunting and hunting with a rifle?

If I was to boil it down to 2 or 2 a word, it was it's intimacy,

meaning the ability to be very intimate with the animal because they're very close.

The requirement to get very intimate about your knowledge of their movements, where they bed, where they feed.

You know, you have to really study the movements of the animals to put yourself in position between where they are and where they're going.

Whereas with a rifle, you can sit on an opposite hillside and know a general area that's good for for deer or elk or whatever it may be.

And see animals in a distance and today shoot them at 600 yards.

So that has its own challenge and own fulfillment.

I'm not knocking that, but I love the intimacy of bow on.

It is there is there going like a, a little bit of a rivalry between the bow hunters and and rifle hunters?

It's a it's an interesting question. I would say,

there is a bit, but,

rifle hunters know they have a tremendous advantage, right?

But their seasons are typically late in the season.

After the rut in most states is when you can gun hunt.

So the rifle hunters are sometimes they're a little bit,

miffed that the archery guys get to hunt during the peak of of the mating season of the rut, which is when the animals are most vulnerable.

So there's a little bit of that, but bow hunters have the added challenge. So.

So in my years of exercise, I've never run into, like, a real rift between gun and bow.

The at least in the circles I travel, I know it exists, but I haven't haven't really run into that.

I respect rifle hunters.

And I feel like they they respect what what I do as a bow hunter.

But I have heard stories of of of friction there, for sure, but I don't really see a need for it.

We're all there to enjoy the same thing. We just do it in our own way.

Yeah.

And I and I think that also kind of like, is, separation of seasons is,

you know, helping that deer because I presume it wouldn't work if the season like, is it, maybe that's a question.

Is there situations that you can hunt the animals both with the rifle or with the bow?

There is in most in most states in the US,

you can legally hut deer during gun season with the bow.

Okay. Provided you're following all the regulations of a gun hunter.

So if they require blaze orange, you have to be wearing blaze orange.

If they require an extra tag, you have to have that extra tag.

But you can legally Beaumont during gun season.

Now that has has its obvious disadvantages however.

But if you're on private ground that you have exclusive rights to hunt and there's guys gun hunting all around

and you want to have it harvest an animal with a bow,

that's actually not a bad time, because there are a lot of times moving those animals onto your property.

Hahaha. Not that's true, that's true.

So yeah, I've done, I've done, I've done some of that and it can be effective.

Okay, okay. Yeah.

I was just thinking about, you know, the safety measures because you need to get so much closer to the animal.

And, you know, I can I can almost imagine you're just, you know, trying, to take a shot at the animal and then someone 200 yards, boom.

Just happens.

It's it's sits the other. Well, it can happen. And you mentioned safety.

That's paramount. Like when you're bow hunting during gun season, you have to, be very aware.

And yet in most states, you're.

I would always wear blaze orange during gun season. Full stop, whether it's required or not. Absolutely.

Because of that safety reason. Yeah, yeah.

Before we, jump into it a little bit further into the details of bow hunting,

I got to ask you also about crossbow so that it that counts as a archery equipment.

Yes. And yeah, the probably you can elaborate now whether there's a separate season for

for, crossbow probably depends on the state.

Or is it, like archery equipment is all encompassing?

You know, so if you if you could give us a little bit of the, insight on this,

keeping in mind that, you know, most of the listeners of this podcast never hunted with a bow and never hunted with a crossbow

and might not even be fully aware of what are the differences, in effectiveness and so on.

Okay, great. Well, it's a really interesting question. And that is a hot button in many, in many circles.

But just to boil it down, when you're shooting a bow, whether it's your traditional recurve or long bow

where you don't have a sight on it and a release, or you're shooting a compound bow, which often has a sight and a release.

So it's a little bit easier to be accurate at a distance.

You still have limitations relative to the you still have to draw the bow back, hold it back,

keep it on target, and make a clean release, with an on magnified, sight pin.

If you're cutting with a compound bow.

So there are limits to, you know, the range and accuracy and so on.

With a crossbow, the primary distinction is it's more like a rifle, in that once you pocket and put the bolt in, it stays cocked.

And the arrow, which is called a bolt, the bolt in a crossbow is much smaller.

It's shorter and heavy, so it travels extremely fast and flies extremely, flat.

So you can you're much more accurate out to 70, 80 yards with a crossbow than you would ever be with a compound.

And when you get the animal in close, you don't have to draw back the crossbow.

It's already cocked like a rifle. So you just point and shoot.

Then you can put a scope on a crossbow.

So it's a crossbow.

Is has, I think, more similarities to a rifle than it does a bow,

relative to the advantages you obtain by always having it cocked and ready to shoot.

It has a safety on it, and you can put a scope on it.

The similarities are they both use a a banded, you know, abandoned bow limb to propel the arrow.

That's about the only similarities.

So I'll just stop there from a just the different standpoint. Does that make sense.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

And and obviously because of that also the range you can shoot an animal is way

longer or higher or you can, you can should an animal for the greater distance or the crossbow I presume

you, you can I mean, obviously there's people out there that can shoot a compound bow very accurately, particularly out west where you're.

We're hunting big country longer distances.

They'll shoot maybe even out to 40, 50, even 60 yards, which is really long with a bow, but with a crossbow.

But that takes a high degree of skill. Yeah. Someone. Someone who has never shot a crossbow.

I've ever shot a crossbow in your life. You know I did not.

If you've picked if you picked up a crossbow today.

If I handed you, handed you one that was sighted

and you went to shoot it, you could shoot it very accurately out to 70, 80 yards and your very first try.

So imagine that it takes away more practice and expertise to accurately shoot a bow out to say, 60 yards than with a crossbow.

Who you could just pick it up and shoot it, which gives a lot of people confidence to take a lot longer shots.

Maybe then they're capable, different, different story.

But that's the that's the difference primarily, is it?

Then causing the again, tension between the like a classical, let's call them bow hunters and and crossbow

because it's like okay, we have this season for bow hunting and it requires skill and all those things and all that.

Then, you know, someone shows up, like I said, with a crossbow, first time in their hands, and they have all that,

you know, advantages, let's say, of the early archery season and so on, that, that you're absolutely right.

There is there is tension and friction there. And it really gets down to

the, the advantages of the equipment that you, that you reference.

In other words,

people who bohot at least speaking for myself, I chose to bow because I love the challenge and the intimacy of getting closer to the deer.

And part of the challenge is the requirement to really practice shooting your bow and really get good at.

And I shot traditional.

I shot recurve for the first 25, 30 years of of my hunting.

So so so I really,

actually I started with a compound bow shot, a few deer with it, and I'm like, I want something else.

And then I went to recurve and hunted with a recurve traditional bow for about 30 years.

I think. And, it was by choice.

But it's because I enjoyed the challenge and the intimacy and the the requirement to practice and so on.

And so most folks that bow hunt feel like bow hunting with the longer seasons should be limited to, more, you know, Archer traditional archery

equipment, because you're giving a lot, you know, a longer opportunity to hunt because you have a more a bigger challenge with the equipment.

Once you enter crossbows into that equation, right?

There is some friction because it's like, look,

we're having someone who's hunting with a crossbow has the advantage of a rifle hunting in a, a traditional equipment season.

And that's really where the friction is.

What I can say is in the United States and I don't know the exact numbers, I haven't studied the numbers, but there are a lot of states

where archery in in archery season, you can only hunt with a compound,

or a traditional bow, like a longbow or recurve crossbows are not allowed.

The only time they would be allowed is if you had a disability and you applied for a permit, and you got granted a permit

based on some kind of a doctor's, you know, disability note, and it has to be approved by the state.

So, so they're, they're they're not allowed in Boces.

They are allowed in what's called I think it's called, there's a primitive weapon season in a lot of states,

which is primarily, muzzle loaders and oftentimes crossbows are allowed in muzzleloader season.

Oh, because they're actually more akin to that if you think about the effective range of a muzzleloader being, let's say,

I should say a traditional muzzleloader, out to about 100 yards.

Well, the, you know, that's kind of with a crossbow. You're, you're good out to nearly there.

So in other states, for example, Ohio or Kansas, crossbows are allowed in bow season as a traditional weapon.

And there is some friction there because of what I mentioned earlier.

It's like, hey, you're you're coming in and you're not having it.

You're not being held at the same standard of scouting and getting close to the animal and practicing and so on and so forth.

You can come in and shoot a deer at 50, 60 yards with a crossbow, fairly easily.

And so that's the distinction. And there is some friction there.

And it's state by state.

It's been a battle between the traditional archers and the guys that oftentimes the manufacturers that want it

legalized in the state, because they're going to sell a lot more crossbows if it's legal during bow season.

You know, the economics of that.

So of course, that's where the tension that's where the tension is. Yeah.

Oh okay. Thanks for for laying that out for us, Jim.

And you mentioned like an interesting thing that I, that I want one more and that is kind of like a equipment, front.

And this is something we mentioned briefly before we started recording this podcast, is that there is a traditional equipment,

scale required, traditional bow, compound bow.

But then when you look at the compound bow, well, it's nothing but traditional.

You have, you know, space age materials and you have a proceed precision machining and 3D printing and all that technology.

I would argue that even if I go and buy a new rifle, like a tick, or whatever, new rifle, decent rifle, it's actually technologically

very old and obsolete compared to when I go and buy a new compound bow, which is all the latest it is.

So I'm curious, like what's your what's your view? What's your comments?

Maybe on this because this is, this is one of the things that I often hear like, oh, this is like traditional, like, not traditional at all.

Yes. It's having shot both compounds and,

traditional recurve and shot animals with both.

I have mixed feelings on it with respect to a, a traditional bow recurve longbow.

When you pull a 65 pound bow back, you're holding 65 pounds, so you can't hold it for long, right?

You got to pull back and shoot, and you're shooting instinctively, meaning no sights,

when you are with a compound. Of course.

We talked about the advantage of being you pull it back and there's a release.

So if you're pulling back 65, maybe you're only holding 3035 at full draw so you can hold for longer.

Let the animal get close and then you have a oftentimes a trigger release so you can hold it.

And when you release you're not, you know, relying on your fingers doing the work.

You're just pulling a trigger. So you get a good clean release more frequently.

So those advances are normal and have, you know, evolved.

And yet on the one hand,

you know, I'm in favor of anything that helps people make a clean, humane kill shot.

Like, to me, that's the most important thing, respecting the animal and making a good, clean, humane shot.

And so things like sight pins and releases on a compound bow

enable the average hunter to more accurately place a shot on an animal and have a humane kill.

So there.

So having said that, when you start getting to advancements like,

both sites that have, magnification or bow sites that have lighted pins and magnify,

and the ability to turn a dial to adjust to, you know, 27 yards or 36 yards or both sites that have integrated rangefinders in them.

Yeah, I heard that.

That's the that's the latest, right, with the bow bow site with the range finder. Okay.

So there you go.

So so then then you say, well wow, those really make it much easier for someone

to effectively range an animal, dial in their sight and make a clean shot at further distances.

Jim, how do you feel about that?

Well, again, I just said anything that helps an archer make a clean, humane shot more consistently is a good thing.

But and those elements I just discuss those advancements certainly do that.

Right? Yeah.

But at what point does the advancement in technology start to reduce the level of challenge that's required to Beaumont,

and bring in a lot of folks into the sport that just want to have it.

They just want to hunt deer more frequently and make it easy. You bet.

And by the way, you can make the same argument about the crossbow, right?

It's absolutely it makes you, you know, more more proficient, and it makes you, you know, more likely to have a quick

and humane kill in the animal. So it's a it's interesting.

Let me just a quick story on that because I have some experience with that.

I had never shot a crossbow until last year.

And last spring I was involved in a, in a hunting accident where I got, I got, shot during Turkey season in my right side of my face,

and it put my right I am. Yeah. Oh, geez.

Yeah. Yeah.

Happens.

It's a really unfortunate, but but the point is,

they were able to restore some vision to my right eye, but not to the point where I had any level of acuity.

You know, out of. It's more like looking through a bottom of a Coke bottle.

So, I'm coming up to both season, and I don't have the time to learn how to shoot left handed.

Right. And I don't want to miss both seasons. One of my greatest passions in life.

And I'm really conflicted.

I'm like lawmakers. And we were going to Kansas. I'm like, am I just going to go to Kansas?

And help with my brother in law? Just hang out with him? Or am I going to hunt? But I can't both.

I can't shoot righty.

But I can't learn the left handed and be accurate enough in the next six weeks.

So I'm in that conundrum.

How do I get accurate and make a good, humane, clean kill?

And so I ended up borrowing a crossbow.

Now, borrowing a weapon goes against my grain, but generally for hunting, right?

Like you got to get a, you know, you got to get a weapon, you got to get proficient at it.

But I felt like if I could be proficient at it and limit my range, I could still enjoy the, you know, enjoy my Beaumont.

Right.

So I went to Kansas, had had a had a barrel bow.

I shot it a couple of days beforehand.

And when I shot at righty, it was iffy because of my vision.

So I had to shoot it lefty because my left eye is was is better.

And I got to where I could just nail a target at 30 yards with a crossbow.

Like I'm talking like this in two days.

I maybe shot 30 arrows, 30 bolts, and I am just absolutely knocking the, you know, the center out of the target.

So I'm like, I'm comfortable.

You know, Archer and I shot it out to 50.

I'm like, I'm comfortable out to 50.

But I'm I've never shot a deer with my bow in all the years over 25 yards

in all the deer I shot, probably 45, 50 deer never shot one over 25 years because I like to get them in close.

So the moral of the story is I go out hunting and, we're three days into the hunt and I have an opportunity to shoot a really nice buck,

and I can't get many closer than 50 yards,

and he's out in the middle of a field and it's in the wide open.

He's with a doe. He's very. He's distracted. It's the perfect situation. I can't get him any closer.

I've tried. I've rattled.

He's not getting any closer. He's going to move off.

And I ranged him and he was 50

and I shot him left handed off and at no rest. Just left handed, 50 yards.

Shot him right in the heart. He went 50 yards and died.

And and I was shot.

But I felt so confident making that shot because when I put that that weapon on him

and it was a scoped crossbow for I think it was a two power scope, maybe, I put it right on his breadbasket.

I pulled the trigger. I just knew I was going to make a clean shot.

So I didn't violate any any of my, you know, ethos, if you will, that way.

But after that hunt, I was reflecting on the fact that.

How easy was that for me to have never shot a crossbow and then just picked it up a few days before, and I went out

during both season, and I shot a deer that I would not have shot with my with my normal equipment, and I shot him at 50 yards.

Yes, I made a good clean kill,

but it it what it did was it it actually emphasized the primary beef I have with allowing crossbows during both season.

And I did it and I did it legally and it enabled me to hunt. And because I had this disability. Right.

And I and I enjoyed it for all that it was, but it really highlights the advantage of a crossbow.

That's a great story, Jim. That's a that's a great story. Congratulations on the book.

Yeah, it was interesting.

I never in my life thought I'd shoot a deer with a crossbow ever.

Yeah, and I did, and I, I took nothing away from the animal.

I love the experience. I enjoyed it, but it really gave me a lot to reflect on, honestly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure, for sure. And that's a, that's a that's a great story.

And you know, like sometimes things are happening in life that made you try things that you would,

you will never try and then you enjoy it or at least have it like a, you know, some thoughts about it, like you did.

Jim. So I think you it's a great moment now to kind of like a transition to another part of this conversation.

You mentioned the word humane there quite a few times.

Yes. And obviously, well, obvious to me, maybe to other people as well.

This is one of the biggest,

arguments of the opponents of bow hunting.

And, you know, even on this podcast, I spoke with, few bow hunters, but I also spoke with veterinarians and,

even accomplished hunters, rifle hunters who were expressing their,

you know, various level of disapproval for bow hunting based on the,

how humane that their shot is.

And it seems to me like the the most common argument is that the,

arrow is lacking the concussive power that they can concussive, affect on the, on the animal where you have the, the,

effect where the water in the eye, it says a name that is eluding me right now, which, which has a,

the basically is the all the water in the body of the animal is disturbed and creates like a wave.

It's, it's it's called hydro electric shock or something like that.

So it doesn't have a concussive barrier. Therefore it is less humane.

And I, you know, I think and this that was also confirmed by many people who said like, well, why?

Why, you know, why is

causing that concussion to the animal.

How can you come to the conclusion that this is somehow more humane?

If you can shoot an animal that and we know those stars.

You shoot an animal, an animal.

Just look what happened and then comes back to grazing and then falls over.

They didn't even know what hit him.

But then the argument is like, yeah, but how many shots like that really happens?

It's one every now and then and then again, fundamentally it's an issue, mate. So

once again, I would ask you to once again on this podcast, unpack this argument and how, how you feel about it.

How does that, said in your opinion, it's a great question.

It has some complexities and nuance to it, but it's a great question. And so

I'm no,

doctor or surgeon. Right.

But what I do know is that, having studied it is that,

an arrow kills through hemorrhage,

right?

Like blood loss or lungs, you know, for blood,

you know, it's just killed by hammered, whereas a bullet kills by shock, concussive power and damage to the material.

Whatever it hits, right.

And so I can only speak through that.

I'll only speak through experience here.

And that is to say, I've shot, you know, quite a few deer with my bow,

and I've shot a fair number of deer with both a rifle and black powder and a shotgun slug.

And I will say that,

during all the years of bow hunting, I may have lost 2 or 3 deer that I hit, that I didn't recover

in all the years of bow hunting.

Right? 35 years.

So. Well, why?

Hey, wait a minute.

That seems like.

Well, it is low, but it's because,

of the commitment to practice and be proficient

and make sure the animal is close enough to make a clean shot.

And having the discipline to pass up anything that doesn't pass that litmus test of, I'm going to make a clean shot on this animal, right?

So I've had to pass up some really nice animals at 35, 40 yards with my recurve.

I just not going to shoot them. Right.

Because I thought I probably would have voted them and I probably would have at that distance with a recurve.

So the animals that I've shot with my bow, I would say ballpark 80% of them after I hit them in some cases.

Well, they died within a hundred yards there. Went through them all the way, all the way through them.

And then they ran off. And I typically would see them fall or hear them fall within 100 yards, in some cases less,

because when you double lung

an animal with a arrow and it goes all the way through them like you said, they just they flinch,

especially if you don't hit a rib.

And I've had them go back to grazing and tip over in eight seconds.

If you hit a rib with your arrow and they feel that, you know, they'll they'll run for a while,

but they'll often stop after 30 or 40 yards and then that blood flow to their brain ceases

because you let the air out of their lungs and they die in less than 10s, like literally 7 or 8 seconds.

And if you look at them on film, that's about how long it takes

with a rifle, unless you shoot them right in the head or in the, you know, or in the, you know, even in the spine.

Right?

The animals I've shot with a rifle have, some of them that have tipped over right where I shot them.

But oftentimes you hit them and they run even if they're hit.

Well, because what kills them is that shock and ultimately that blood loss. But,

I would say that

I don't have any evidence, personal evidence that would suggest that that killing with a rifle

is more humane than taking an animal with a bow, because that just hasn't been my experience.

And when an animal is shot with a bow, oftentimes it's not that concussive bang,

you know, that hits them and that bullet expands and explodes inside them.

It just goes through it must it feels like a, you know, fly prick sometimes, right?

Because they don't get spooked and all wild eyed and run off.

They'll run off 30, 40, 50 yards and stop and then fall over. So

any I know that it's a big topic out there, but in my experience that just hasn't been the case.

If you apply the discipline to make a clean shot and don't take those marginal shots.

And that's where the problem is, guys pushing that envelope and they wound a lot more deer and that is a problem.

I'm just calling that out.

Yeah.

No. And and the and you're right because this is like a the next argument that follows closely by right.

And just to finish off on the on the concussive power versus versus just, just, you know, sharp arrows cutting through the animal eye,

you know, like, I feel like if I, if I were a deer and I had to choose, I would, I would always choose to be shot by the bow

and by the arrow because they, I don't I just I don't see the argument of the concussive power making it more humane.

If the time it takes is roughly the same, you're actually saving the animal

this extra concussive power and the, you know, sound of the gunshot and all these things.

So but that's that's just my my comment on it.

So let's talk about the difficulty because like you said, this is another argument that comes next that,

oh the guys are pushing the envelope.

They're they're taking the shots that they have no business taking.

My view on this is that, well, there are people who are taking shots with the rifle that they have no business taking.

Yes. So,

that argument actually doesn't cut to me too much about, you know, who am I?

I live in a country that prohibits bow hunting. I never bow hunt.

So that's what I have you on the podcast to talk about these, these things.

But the argument then is that because of such a high degree of skill required,

bow hunters are putting a lot of effort into training, into honing their skill, into shooting arrows.

Then, compared to the rifle hunters who I know, people who are just, you know,

they they they never own the range, they just shooting on the animals because it's so easy, you just putting in a crosshair and bang.

And then when they miss they go on the range, do zero of the skull because, oh, I'm just I just missed just missed this dog.

And so then the level of training, you know, there's so in my head is like,

you are equally likely to take a shot that you shouldn't be able to you shouldn't be taking if you're, you know, this kind of person.

But the bow hunter, by definition, at least, should be way more skilled and trained because of a difficulty of it.

Now, this is my, you know, borrowed opinions and what I think.

I want to hear your opinion is, is there any truth to that?

Is there are there any caveats to that?

What I said, I think it's a it's a fair

it's a fair observation from, from your perspective in that,

knowing, you know, over the years, hundreds of bow hunters and many, many gun hunters,

most of the bow hunters I know, Tommy, are, are very committed to the sport, right?

Because, you know, they enjoy archery, they shoot 3D shoots, you know, that that they,

around the area that they live in, the three dimensional targets where they're set up at different ranges to test their skill,

you know, estimate ranges and shoot and score.

And they're out here out west where I live in Oregon.

Now, there's they they train physically cardio because there's big hills, right? Big mountains out here.

And so they know they're going to have to be physically fit and to be able to execute a shot.

So they're very committed, to the sport.

And therefore they really work on their proficiency with their weapon.

I know many gun hunters that are also very committed to shooting

accurately and go to the range and would never go hunting with a rifle without shooting in before setting in beforehand.

But I know probably an equal or greater number that fall into the category you describe, which is like, oh, it's,

you know, you've been to the range this year. Oh no, my, my, my rifle was cited in last year.

I killed a nice bike with it. I'm good to go.

Well, really, you know what I mean. Yeah. You've pointed that out.

And so they go out in a mess and I've had guys go, oh go to the range.

And it's, you know, up, up a foot off and they miss or worse wound an animal

because they didn't feel they needed to take the time because of the proficiency of a firearm.

So I think what you characterized is reasonably true.

But but with any sport, especially blood sports that we're talking about here, just to be, you know, candid,

there are folks that

that endeavor to do it correctly and are really respectful about the animal and the sport and so on.

And there are some smaller proportion that want to take the easy route, are willing to chance a long shot at an animal

even if they wounded in the event that they might take it, you know, doing things that they shouldn't do.

And I think that that exists in any sport.

But when you're talking about shooting animals, I think it's, it's really unfortunate that that can be the case.

And the easier you make it, the in my opinion, the more it invites casual, less committed folks.

And that gets right back to the conversation we had on crossbows.

And anything that makes it easy

invites more people not willing to necessarily put the time in to say, oh, if it's that easy, I'll give it a try.

And that to me is is it?

That rubs me the wrong way.

Yeah. They're more focus on the outcome rather than on the process. Nailed it.

You just nailed it. That's right. What about the wounding rates? Wounding rates are higher with a bolt.

I think there is no no questions about it. Or are they.

Well, it's all about shot placement right. And so

the opportunity to wound an animal with a bow is definitely there because just the angle of the animal.

Right.

Like if it's dead broadside and you shoot it right in the, you know, right behind the front, like you'll take out both lungs.

But if that animal's quartering to you even slightly 15 degrees, same shot, you might hit one lung and miss the second one, right?

That animal or one lung hit animal can run hundreds of yards. Right.

And so you can run them

and but but most are fatally wounded, right.

Like most are fatally wounded.

So that's where skills of tracking, understanding animal behavior, where they where they typically go

and their behavior after they're mortally wounded is really important.

And, you know, I take tremendous pride on my ability to track animals.

And I don't give up. I've tracked them for days,

and hours on my hands and knees and have a very, very high recovery rate.

As a consequence, I don't give up if I don't see specks of blood like I'm following tracks turned over leaves.

I'm following directionally where I believe they're going to go. I understand my property.

I know where they would likely to go if they were one London. They were hit and they're going to go downhill.

They're going to go toward water and they're going to go and take cover. And I look there.

So if you really work at it, you you can recover a high, high percentage of any wounded animals.

And when they're not fatally wounded with a bow.

Right. It's just like a clean slice. They often recover

like they often do.

I've killed many, not many.

I've killed a handful of of deer that had a broad head in their hip, and they were fine, right.

Or they had a scar, but they were fine. So,

there is a, an opportunity to own an animal no matter the weapon you use.

But as a bow hunter, I'm very committed to because they die by hemorrhage.

You follow blood, right?

And, you can recover most animals if they're fatally hit, without doubt.

So I'll just. I'll just leave it there.

That's one of the reasons we talked about advancements in technology earlier,

you know, where do they make sense and where where do they maybe go against the rules of fair chase, lighted knocks,

you know that as it's lighted, knock on the back of an arrow, it lights up when you shoot it.

Yeah, I know, but you can explain to to the listeners.

But yeah, the knock is the is the end of the arrow that attaches to your string, and it's made out of plastic.

And today they offer those that that light up when you shoot them.

They light up like with a little LED light, like light green or light pink.

So when you release the arrow you can see it fly and see it hit.

And and I

believe that's a good advancement in technology because the greater knowledge you have on where the arrow hit

hit the animal, the better odds are you're going to recover it because you're going to know where you hit.

That's a good thing.

When you have I for years shot broad heads that were traditional broad heads, like the old bear broadhead

where you were, you actually, it was like a razor, but you had to sharpen it yourself.

So I'd sit there in front of the TV and sharpen it myself for hours so I could cut air off.

My whole arm would be bald because I use that as a test. My left arm would be just completely bald.

Get it?

Going into Boston because I was testing it, right? And like, yeah, if I can shave hair off my arm, it's it's good.

It's it's it's right.

But what I found

is I tried one year the new mechanical broadhead, which fundamentally I was against.

Right. It's like, you know, it's another technological gimmick. Right.

But I tried and tested the mechanical broadhead,

with a 1.5in cutting radius.

And the very first year I shot with one, I shot him, you know, through both lungs.

And the blood trail was amazing. I mean it because of the cutting radius.

If you kill by hemorrhage, the more cutting, the better.

So my point is I'm in, I believe mechanical broadhead

are beneficial to the animal because of the larger cut radius.

Quicker kills, easier recovery because the blood trail is much more substantial for people who are listening to this.

The mechanical broadhead is the brow side.

Like the the blades of the broadhead opens on the contact with the animal. Yes.

So that that improves the flight of the arrow, I guess because it's, it's it doesn't have the broadhead

with the, with the blades on it cracked open.

And then because of that it can open too much, like I said, larger extend larger blades basically, which makes a bigger cuts.

So so exactly.

You explain it perfectly.

So the arrow is much more likely to hit where you're aiming it, meaning a good clean kill.

And when it hits and those blades open up, it makes a very large cutting radius, which then leads to a very, very good blood trail.

And that's what you want. You want to recover the animals you you hit, right. That's the key.

So those advancements in technology help recovery of animals, which I'm in favor of absolutely makes sense to me.

Makes sense.

And and look, we, we people who are more interested in their, you know, details of technical leaders of all the elements of the bow and arrow.

We have an episode,

on the podcast also, it's called,

I think, Sizzling Arrows, where we go into great depth on all the types of arrows and things like that.

So I'm just not one.

I don't want to go into technicals on it.

Because we have way more interesting things here to cover.

Oh, one other things that you mentioned that I also heard earlier is that the wounded animals, the animals wounded with a with a

as a result of the, of a inaccurate bow shot are more likely to recover while the animals that are, that are, wounded by a gunshot

that's usually dead animal only it can take weeks or, you know, long time.

So that's that's you're you kind of confirmed that, as Mark.

Okay.

So I just want to switch gears here, a little bit and talking about how long

in, on average, how long it

takes a person to practice with a bow before they get proficient.

In enough to be able to go and execute a shot at the animal, having in mind that

executing shot at the animal is quite a different deal than executing, show that the range,

because of the emotions and the buck fever and all those things.

So I'm going with this thing here, you know, like if anyone wants to try and, you know, maybe even the question is like,

if people like myself or other who live in Ireland, in the UK, they want to go hunting, they want to go bow hunting,

and they, they can go to Spain or to France or to Hungary, whatever that place in Europe, or maybe even fly to the US

to do this, you know, bow hunting experience.

But they need to prepare.

They cannot just, you know, how long it takes to become proficient.

And what would be your advice to person,

you know, like, again, who lives in Europe and wants to prepare themselves for that sort of experience?

It starts with what equipment we're using.

So I'm going to start with the most common, which is a compound bow.

And when I say a compound bow, I'm going to assume that there's a a sight,

a set of sight pins on the, on the bow bow side and a release, because that's the most common setup you see today.

Okay.

So my son is a good example because he just took up archery this year.

We got him a bow,

set up the way I just described.

And he became

pretty proficient at the range in a matter of, let's say four weeks,

five weeks. Now he's going three, four times a week.

You know, he goes to the range, he's shooting a 20 yards and he's extending out to 30.

But he's really focused on just focus on your form.

You know meaning you release nice and smooth, no jerky.

You know, just nice and smooth. Focus on the fundamentals.

And, you know, in in 4 to 6 weeks.

And when he last he came up here, he was shooting a very tight group at 30 yards.

Meaning I take when I see a tiger, I'm talking about less than three inches. Okay. Like that bit.

So that's good. That's pretty impressive.

And now the question is becomes, well, is he proficient enough to hunt?

And at that point, no.

And however he's proficient enough to shoot accurately at a range then.

So that's let's call that six weeks. I think that's reasonable.

You know, a couple days a week, three days a week for six weeks.

You can be pretty proficient with it, should be expressive with the hours on the range. Right.

Because like six weeks ago. Yeah. About three times a week for six weeks.

Yeah.

I mean literally I mean if you shoot 2 or 3 times a week, but you're shooting about, you know, 75 arrows at a time, right.

And you do that over a period of six weeks. The equipment is so good these days.

You can get proficient at the range. Okay.

So in terms of elapsed time, I don't know how many hours that is, but it's not an inordinate amount of hours.

Right. It's reasonable.

The next step before you would ever go

hunting is you need to go out and shoot 3D targets, different angles at unknown distances.

That's the next step.

So. Right.

Because when you know I'm shooting

20 yards, 30 yards, 40 yards, even if you're shooting deer targets at an archery range, everything is controlled.

Everything.

You know, the distance, the next step is to go shoot a 3D range where you're shooting

at three dimensional targets of of deer or wild boar or elk or whatever they have as the targets.

And you're shooting at different distances.

So you might be shooting at 18 yards, 27 yards, 36 yards, whatever it is. And,

you have to determine, do you want to use a rangefinder or do you want to estimate sight without a range fighter?

For all my years of hunting, I just I was able to estimate yardages without that.

But, but I would recommend having a range finder to know if there's nothing wrong with that, because, again, good clean kill.

So if you spend another, let's say 4 to 6 weeks elapsed time or whatever time you can spend,

shooting three

dimensional targets, unknown ranges at more realistic angles like you would in the field.

That's the next step.

So let's call that another four weeks or so.

Transfer how much time you can at most of us work, so you can't do it every day.

And then the last step

would be to make sure that those last few practice sessions, shooting three dimensional targets, either in your yard or at a range,

you're wearing the clothes you're going to hunt with, you're wearing gloves, everything, face mask or whatever you're going to wear

hunting you're wearing on the range and you're shooting your actual broadhead, and you do that for a couple of weeks.

Those are the phases. So if you think about that, you say, you know what?

In, you know, in 4 or 5 months over the period of a spring summer, could you be starting from zero?

Could you pre-prepared and equipped, if you put that time in

to go hunting confidently and make a humane kill on a big game animal with a bow, I would say that's reasonable.

Oh, and then might I might say that that was,

that was shorter period of time that I thought.

But again, it's very compressed effort because it's like a concert stunt going, going, going.

But so in other words, like if you're if someone would like to go,

for, you know, bow hunting experience trip, next year if they start today,

then by that time next year, they should be more than able to go and execute humane shot at the animal.

That's correct.

And, and, you know, as a nonresident, I believe you can apply for, deer permits in the United States.

Yeah. I mean, like, you know, it's it's one of those things if you want, you can do it.

It's it's just, I think very unfortunate that that we can't do it where we live.

You know, like, I came into hunt and regular listeners of this podcast know this story.

I said it many times that, you know, I came to hunting very late in my life.

I was in that early 40s, late, late 30s, for sure, less than a decade.

And I was an angler.

And I wanted bow hunting, you know, obviously American church shows and the TV's like, oh, I gonna

I feel like I'm ready to graduate to hunting from fishing.

And I want to go bow hunting because it was like, so natural and like, more like a fishing rod.

You know, you have a good bendy and, element and then you have a line and all these things and they're like, no illegal.

And I didn't even want to go into the whole effort of getting, like, a firearm permit and all those things.

And it turns out like, no, I have no choice. I had to do this.

But this bow hunting thing other than, you know, talking about it and educating people through the podcast,

it is in the back of my head.

I would definitely like to, like to try it,

to wrap this up, Jim, what would be like a foolproof advice for you, arguments

for people who are looking favorably at bow hunting and they find themselves,

any in the, companion of other hunters, rifle hunters who are, you know, usually don't have any experience with bow hunting.

And discussion starts about like, oh, you know, this is inhumane.

And should they what would be your like, a foolproof advice

how to conduct that conversation and, and give the give the fair representation of bow hunting.

It's an interesting question. I've never been asked that question.

And I would say that

Isabel Hunter, if I was in the company of, of of of a lot of gun hunters and they were, they were,

you know, challenging the humaneness of my sport.

Right. Is that what you're suggesting? Right. Yeah.

My response would be that no matter the weapon you choose to use, there are certain standards

that that you have to and certain level of of skills and commitment you have to put forth to ensure a humane kill,

whether it's a rifle or a bow or a crossbow or a muzzleloader, there is a certain level of of of commitment

you have to make to become proficient and then discipline, you have to apply on what shot you will and will take.

And what I can say for myself and other bow hunters that I know that are as committed as I am, is that we make quick, humane kills

at a high, high rate 95 plus percent of the time.

Right?

And another state I would say is I've only missed 2 or 3 deer in my entire life.

Missed it completely because I just don't take long shots.

It's only 25 yards. I'm not going to miss a deer at 25 yards.

The ones that I did miss went down a hill and went shot over the back.

So I don't miss many. I know a lot of rifle hunters that have missed a lot of deer. Why?

Because they're taking shots that they shouldn't take, running animals, distances that they shouldn't.

They're just taking a pot shot. Right.

So my sport is any not any more, more or less humane than your method.

If we apply the same level of commitment to knowing our weapon and understanding its limits and being disciplined about what shot we take.

So let's let's go grab a beer.

That would be my response.

It's a great response.

And, you know, like this is like so many things that for example, some hunters in Europe, like in Germany and France,

they they think like, oh, bow hunting is inhumane. But then they, they should go running animals.

It's like a how that is humane.

Like if bow running is inhumane and you're just shooting like a running deer and they're running right.

But that's, that's a, completely separate, conversation.

And I just want to, end up with, with a story this year in, in, in May was

it was in an April I was on the, on the symposium and the like a CIC event

and I was talking with the, with the old hunter from Liechtenstein and we started and there was also people from the US and the and the,

not a hunter, but the guy who

is, really involved in conservation from the US was sitting at the table with us and the topic, got into the bow hunting.

And, you know, we started talk about hunting, and I look at the guy from the Liechtenstein and I said, oh, there we go.

Right. And then finally I goes like, so tell me what you think about bow hunting.

You're you're against this. You don't like it.

And this is like a hardcore old school European hunter.

And he goes like, you know what? I was somewhere I don't remember a square.

And there was a bow hunter, and he shook the deer, and I was shocked, in shock how quickly that animal went down.

So I am not against bow hunting. I'm I'm fine with bow hunting.

And I was like, yes, this probably the first time I hear like an old school European rifle hunter who actually says like it's great.

Like the animal.

Like because he saw that, you know, animals hit by an arrow, it'll be running with you. Whatever happens.

And he was he was shocked.

He couldn't believe how quickly that animal just just expired. And that was it.

So that's, kind of like a confirmation.

And maybe that is that once you see something and once you try it, once you experience that firsthand, then you are in a much better position

to, you know, offer opinions rather than just borrow an opinion and just repeat it without even, you know, experiencing,

editing yourself.

Jim, it's been great pleasure talking with you.

Just wondering, do you have any any words of wisdom to all the hunters and otherwise who are listening to this podcast?

I do, I do as I was thinking about where you started in your listeners, most of them don't have an opportunity

to hunt because of where they live in the restrictions.

And, I was thinking that what I wish and hope for all of your listeners

who truly love the sport of hunting, I wish and hope that they all have an opportunity to bow out in their in their hunting lifetimes.

And and they make the commitment to do so because the level of intimacy and adrenaline

and the feeling that you get when you get that close to an animal and harvest it on its terms,

and you had to fool it and make a good, clean shot, is a level of adrenaline and intimacy that I've never got in

all the years that I've gone, had, and I've certainly had, you know, I've certainly taken many animals with my rifle, which I enjoy as well.

It's just a completely different feel.

And I hope you and your listeners who are have the interest, have that make that opportunity for themselves happen.

Absolutely. Thanks very much, Jim. Okay. My pleasure. Good talking to you.

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