Foreign.

Galatians 3:24 29 in the Christian Standard Bible say the law then was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith.

But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

For through faith you are all sons of God in Christ Jesus.

For those of you who are baptized into Christ have been clothed with Christ.

There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male and female, since you all are one in Christ Jesus and if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed heirs according to the promise.

Just before this pricope of Scripture, St. Paul was discussing the role of the law before Christ and after, he will go on to discuss the choice we have for freedom in Christ as opposed to the oppression that the law offers us.

Beth Alison Barr how do you think the statement about unity and diversity in this text plays into this larger conversation about freedom and the law?

I think it is such a beautiful verse.

I loved listening to you read it there.

And I think if we actually fully understood what that passage means, that under Christ that all of us, even people from diverse backgrounds and even differing viewpoints, etc.

That we are united through our belief in Christ and that really should bring us and calls us, I think, back to unity.

Yeah.

Amen.

So why I love that verse so much.

Hey guys, welcome to the Whole Church podcast.

Possibly your favorite church unity podcast.

Possibly not.

Which is fine.

We don't hold grudges.

We don't have any expectations for you guys.

It's fine.

I am really excited for today's episode.

I'm Joshua Noel.

You guys only care about that because you know I'm gonna introduce some really cool people today.

Of course, as always, we have the reason for podcast the one and only my co host, TJ Tubby, years one Blackwell.

How's it going tj?

Good, but not, as always, special.

We have a very special guest today.

I'm really excited.

One of my favorite authors speakers I guess technically podcasters now, Dr. Beth Allison Barr.

She is an American historian who is currently the James Vardaman Endowed professor of History at Baylor University in Waco, Texas.

Her specialties include European women, medieval and early Modern England, and church history.

She is the author of the Making of Biblical Womanhood, how the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth and more recently becoming the Pastor's How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Welcome to the podcast.

Oh, I'm so glad.

Thank you for asking me.

Yep, anything.

Anything for the Beth Allison Bar.

If you're listening already.

Then you should probably check out the Onzale podcast network versus other shows like our shows that, you know aren't like.

Our shows that we just like to like and like to be affiliated with.

And, you know, if you're listening, go ahead and leave a review.

Leave a rating.

It helps us a lot.

It's free.

It's simple.

You can do it while you're listening.

Unless you're driving.

Please do not drive recklessly.

We do not condone texting and driving.

Yeah.

Whole church except for, you know, no unity with people who drive reckless.

That's.

That's no unity with reckless drivers.

Yeah.

But of course, we do have one other thing we like to do when we start our podcast off.

It's a holy sacrament around here of silliness, because you can't be divided when you're being a silly.

As I like to be, which is quite silly at times.

Today is a very special one because I happen to find out that one of my favorite authors also likes Doctor who.

So I got to have a fun Doctor who question and TJ Gets to suffer.

Which medieval church figure would you most like to see the doctor from Doctor who interact with and TJ And I'll go first.

Give you time to think about it.

I'm let TJ Go first because my answer might depend on his answer.

Thomas Iguanas.

Mm.

My answer did depend on your answer because that's what I would have said.

Why Thomas Aquinas?

I would like to see the Doctor not like Thomas Aquinas.

Yeah, me too.

Yeah.

And to put it in gentle terms.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Logic versus Thomas Aquinas be a fun episode.

It would.

From that perspective.

I would like to see one with Thomas Aquinas.

When you first said that, I was like, no.

Hey, we have a medieval expert who agrees with us about Thomas Aquinas.

Take that.

Will me to tell you about Thomas Aquinas?

Yeah.

No, Yeah.

I can say a lot of things about Thomas.

We might have to do.

Do a bonus.

A slam episode.

Yeah.

Since you said Thomas Aquinas, I'm going to steal from.

From later in our outline.

This is like a tease.

St. Margaret of Antioch.

And I think.

I think when Dr. Barr tells us later about her, you guys will be like, oh, no, it totally checks out.

Why Josh wants to see that.

Y' all will understand.

Yes.

Yeah.

Beth Elson Barr.

Who are.

Who are we going with here?

I like, you know, so there's so many possibilities here.

I think it would be really fun to see him, like, show up at Julian of Norwich's Anchorage.

That would be really fun.

And, like, people not know who it is and him maybe get advice from her or something.

I think that could be really cool.

I think it'd be really fun to watch him wander around Ireland and maybe run into Bridget of Kildare or.

Well, then run into Saint Winifred.

I think running into some of those.

Or even around Paris, he could run into St. Genevieve, any of those kind of roaming, preaching, female saints, bishops in the early medieval world.

I think that could have a really fun episode.

Yeah, I know.

I. Yeah.

One of my favorite 4th Dr. Tom Bakers, when he.

They went to Paris, it was great episode.

And also, I just like seeing Ireland on tv, so that would be cool, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ireland's just pretty.

Yeah.

And.

And Wells, too.

Wells is gorgeous on tv.

So true.

Yeah.

Only on tv.

No.

Los Angeles actually is only pretty on tv, though.

Like, I went in person and I was so let down.

I was like, man, way prettier on tv.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I went in, like, August.

Everything's, like, dead.

Everything's dead.

Yeah.

Depressing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I. I can't.

I'm not going to California when it's hot.

It wasn't hot.

I'll go in December when it's less hot.

Well, it might have been hot to you.

It wasn't hot to me.

I was still wearing a coat and it was August.

Yeah.

And, well, with the fires, it's.

Because it's so dry, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So to continue to the real episode, for context, this episode is about complementarianism, and that is the teaching that women were created to complement men as equals with different roles, where women are never called to leadership.

Egalitarianism refers to the belief that men and women are equal with equal ability to possess the same roles as.

And women are just as likely to be leaders as men.

The sbc, which is the Southern Baptist Convention, which is technically not a denomination, but functionally it is, is a collection of churches associated with one another through convention while maintaining church autonomy.

They're the biggest Protestant group in the United States.

If you know Baptists, they're probably sbc.

Statistically.

Yeah.

For anyone who may be unaware of your legacy, our audience is extremely diverse.

There are some SBC leaders and a lot of much more progressive Christians.

Dr. Park, could you give us your background on your history with the church and the faith community that you're a part of now?

Yeah.

So I did grow up mostly Southern Baptist when I.

My parents were.

My mom was Baptist, my dad was Methodist.

But when they got married, we were in a small town in Texas and we went to the Baptist church there.

So it was Southern Baptist because it was more rural Texas.

And I married a Southern Baptist minister.

He went to a Southern Baptist seminary and we were mostly Southern Baptist until we actually moved back to.

To Waco, and we were in a non denominational church for a while.

And now we are back in a Baptist church, but it is not a Southern Baptist church.

We are in a Texas Baptist Baptist General Convention of Texas Church, so.

So.

And I still teach Sunday school in that church, so.

Nice, nice.

Yeah, I. I do.

Like, I don't know if you guys have ever heard the.

Or seen the skit where it's like, oh, you're part of the church.

What church?

And then it's like, oh, convention.

It's a million different things.

That's the Baptist.

That's about the Baptist.

Narrower and narrower and narrower.

Yeah.

Oh, convention 1812 or convention of 19.

Yeah, that's hilarious.

I wish I could remember that in full.

I just.

It's not possible for me.

No, but it's a funny one.

It's like my favorite comic book jokes when people say, I love America, and they're like, oh, yeah, God bless the usa.

And you're like, no, Chavez.

What are you talking about?

America Chavez.

Yeah.

Geez.

But I mean, yeah, I'm getting sidetracked.

I'm sorry, guys.

No, it's okay.

So in your most recent book, Becoming the Pastor's Wife.

Phenomenal book, by the way.

Everyone needs to pick it up.

Anyway, that's just my quick plug.

You describe how women's ordination has changed from a time where women held the same offices in the church as men to, like, currently, where in many complementarian churches like the sbc, the woman's role is defined by her relationship to a man for the most part.

Right?

Yeah.

Two of the most interesting turning points you discuss are, like, when the church becomes more sacramentally focused during, like, the medieval times, and then also when pastors began to marry during the Protestant Reformation.

Could you explain maybe some of the significance of those two events to, like, how we got to where we are now?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, I find that many people in the modern church have a very sort of monolithic view of the church, really up until the very recent past.

And one of the things they view very monolithically is ideas about ordination.

And they often believe that ordination has been pretty much unchanged from the beginning and that it has always been associated with things like the sacrament at the altar.

And that only ordained people are the ones who are able to perform the sacrament at the altar.

And while.

And what I always like to tell people is that everything has a history.

And even this definition of ordination, and especially it's tying to this exclusive tying to an ordained person, mostly an ordained priest, or what we would consider now to be an ordained pastor, more so can officiate at the altar.

And when this came about, you know, was in the Western church is around the central Middle Ages, between the year 1000 and 1300, a lot of sacramental ideas begin to be ironed out within the church as well as you know, it's in 1215 that we have a big council called Fourth Lateran Council.

And that is the very first time that it says in Western church history that only an ordained priest can perform the sacrament at the altar.

And there has been a whole lot of Christianity before 1215.

And I think that's always something that comes as a surprise to people.

And as this idea, this identification of the sacramental roles of the priest were was becoming more defined, one of the things that they began to argue was that a priest could only be a celibate man.

And again is something that is new.

Most priests throughout most of the Christian world were married.

They were like any other people.

And so this move, unless they were monastics.

From the beginning, we have had this strain of celibacy within monasticism.

But monastics were not identical with priests.

They were not the same thing.

And so this is where we see this monastic ideal begins to graft onto all orders of ordination that celibacy is important for those who are going to perform the sacrament at the altar.

And this is at this time is when we begin to see women clearly written out of ordination or sort of, or being able to be a priest or being able to perform at the altar completely.

And so, yeah, it's an evolution.

Quick question before we get to the Prospero information stuff.

I think it was you I read this from that wasn't some of this also tied to the fact that like a lot of times the church was basically being passed down to pastors, kids.

So they were trying to put a stop to that too.

Yeah, yeah.

There's lots of factors behind this.

And what we have between the year 1000 and 1300 is we see a series of reforms in the church.

And a big impetus behind this reform was to get the church wrested from lay control, from the control of ordinary people.

So they didn't want kings and aristocrats to be be able to control who was running the churches and who was performing the sacraments and all of that sort of thing.

And so one of the reasons, one of the ways they could do that, if they enforce celibacy, then that means that the selection of priests now comes through the clergy instead of through, you know, through family networks.

And so it was definitely part of that.

Was part of this.

Yeah, yeah.

Which isn't a terrible motive compared to some of what we see now.

No, it's not.

That part of it is very reasonable.

I think the part that comes with it, though, is this fear of women's bodies.

If we're trying to keep priests from having children, then that means that we've got to separate priests from women.

Women are dangerous.

Women can't even come near the altar because women are too dangerous.

And so that thread gets better pulled into it, and that's when we begin to see this very clear separation of women from the sacramental or most sacramental orders.

Although women continue to be ordained throughout the medieval period.

And then the Protestant Reformation, I know, like, priest started to marry again, almost like part of the reform again.

You're not a terrible motivation.

You kind of describe that as like a large part of how we get to the pastor's wife now, too, right?

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

No, I love.

Actually, I loved learning about the beginning of the pastor's wife role with the Reformation because I found out, you know, this is something I hadn't really thought about before, that pastor's wives, those very early pastors, wives, were symbols of resistance.

The way that you knew a pastor was separating itself from Catholic and becoming Protestant, or as they called it at the time, evangelical.

But it's a different evangelical than what we have today.

But the way you knew your pastor was evangelical or that.

That some people were evangelical was if they were married, if their pastor was married.

And so literally, women became symbols of the Protestant resistance, and it was dangerous for them to get married.

A lot of them actually got killed for it.

They were martyred for it.

And so this was, you know, this is women very much as heroes here.

But at the same time, what we see happening is that for the very first time in Christian history, ministry becomes identified by marriage.

And marriage becomes.

To be a minister means to be married.

And this is the first time that has happened.

Yeah.

So check out my hot wife.

Used to be like a great battle cry.

Like, look at us.

We're resisting the church.

Yeah.

Catholic hierarchy.

And now it's just cringe, please.

Now it's, yeah, everybody, please stop doing.

Yeah, it's you know, I mean, it just shows how much of what we take as ordinary and traditional practices are just born in.

In historic changes and over time.

And so this is our understanding of ordination.

And who is a minister is not really dictated by the Bible.

It is dictated by our historical circumstances.

All right, so before we get into the meat of the episode, we are going to do what we call the speed round.

Sort of.

Normally it's a lot more personal, but we're doing a special one just for Dr. Beth Alison Barr.

Did people used to call you Babs?

Is that a thing?

So some people.

It's not part of the speed round.

People don't call me that.

I mean, I use that as initials, like, for things.

Just DC Comic fans, I think.

Call me that.

It's okay.

All right.

I just thought of it.

I don't know.

Maybe I'm just as bad as Josh.

So we're going to go through the following list of names of women from the Bible and church history to see if you can tell us a little bit about each of them in a single sentence.

One sentence.

So are you ready?

I'll ready as I can be.

All right, so we're going to start with Hagar.

Okay.

Hagar is the first person to name God in the Bible.

She names him the God who.

And she is the enslaved woman who is raped by Abram.

All right.

Deborah.

Deborah is the judge in the Old Testament, the female judge in the Old Testament, who also is a seated judge.

She's the only other seated judge alongside Moses in the Old Testament.

Mary Magdalene.

Oh, Mary Magdalene.

Mary Magdalene is one of the close followers of Jesus, and she is the first one who sees Jesus at the resurrection and who he entrusts in carrying the message of the Gospel.

All right, Junia.

Junia is the.

Is a female apostle who's named in Acts that the.

I'm sorry.

In Romans 16.

Right.

Phoebe.

Phoebe is a deacon.

She is also named in Romans 6, in Romans 16.

Theodora.

Oh, go ahead.

Oh, Theodora.

Which Theodora?

Theodora the wife of Justinian.

Yes, Theodora, the wife of Justinian.

She was the wife of Justinian, the emperor of Constantinople in the East.

She is also very associated with reforms for women as well as in helping to push reforms for the church.

All right.

Julia of Norwich.

Oh, she was an anchoress, a mystic and ordained woman in the late 14th century.

And she had a conversation with another of my favorite mystics, Marjorie kemp.

All right.

St. Margaret of Antioch.

Oh, St. Margaret of Antioch is an early Christian martyr who slayed A dragon.

Super cool.

Katharina Luther.

Katherine Luther.

Luther she was.

Or Katie Luther.

She was the wife of Martin Luther, who we know a whole lot about.

People try to make her the quintessential pastor's wife, but I don't think modern pastors wives would recognize what she did today.

Dorothy Patterson is the wife of Paige.

Patterson, who was one of the architects of the Southern Baptist Convention.

And she also is the architect, in many ways, of the biblical womanhood movement.

All right.

And Kathy Hoppe.

Hoppy.

Kathy Hoppy.

Kathy Hoppe is one of the women that I talk about in becoming the pastor's wife, who as well as in our podcast, all the Buried Women.

And she was a woman ordained by the Southern Baptist convention in 1982, who they then kicked out of a church because she was ordained.

Interesting.

What a detailed history you mentioned earlier.

I'm gonna do a quick derailment and TJ will fix it.

I believe in him.

Or maybe I'll fix it.

We'll see you.

In general, how a lot of people kind of misconstrue or even misstate that ordination has always been just men.

Specifically, in your book, you mentioned Al Mohler making a statement about this, which was great for me because we talk about church unity.

I always try to show grace to everybody.

And I feel like my two exceptions really are just Al Mohler and Thomas Aquinas, because I'm just like, I just can't find it.

I can't find the good there.

But.

Can you talk some about, like, what he said and why do you think he just doesn't know the history, or is he, like, blatantly ignoring it?

So Al Muller is one of the people that I struggle with showing Christian grace to as well.

And I think it's because I think he knows it.

I don't know how he couldn't know it.

We know he knew it at one point because he supported women in ministry at one point.

And so I think he knows, but is become so convinced, mesmerized by his own interpretation, that he now.

I mean, essentially he's.

It's gaslighting.

This is like gaslighting at its most in a.

In a very large arena, as he is convicting, you know, 12 million Southern Baptists that women have never served in pastoral roles throughout all of history.

Yeah, yeah.

A lot of times when I have to talk about logical fallacies, I pull up his podcast and, like, listen to one.

I'm like, here's a few examples.

I think he intentionally is manipulative with how he Words, things.

And this is why I have a hard time showing no grace, because I'm like, I know as someone who's over a university, you know better than to straw me and other people's argument to do this, like, argument from authority, like all the stuff that he does all the time.

And I'm like, yeah, he.

I'm convinced he knows better.

This is a terrible segment for a church unity podcast.

But, you know, I mean, I think for church unity, though, we've got to call out people who are intentionally.

I mean, this sort of.

He has intentionally created division for somebody who claims to not.

He has intentionally created division.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Sorry, I meant to say that earlier and I was just like, I just needed to pick your brain while you were here.

And I was like, I'm just going to derail us.

It's fine.

But no, in your book, getting back to some of the unity stuff, the reason we do the show, I guess one thing you write a lot about is how redemptive language is used to allow men to.

Who have been found guilty of sexual sins, even assault, a lot of the times to keep working in the church, while women are often.

Who were victimized, are often told to be quiet for the sake of the church's reputation.

And we know Deidre and I also know the language of unity.

It's been used really frequently to silence voices who try to speak out against wrongdoings in the church.

You know, that's why we talk a lot about how unity and uniformity not the same thing.

Yes.

Do you think there's a way that we can keep redemptive language and language of unity from being co opted from those who hide behind words like this, like Al Mohler.

There we go.

I found a way to tie it in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think.

Well, I think we need to start being intentional about how we use that.

We need to reclaim that language and order for somebody, you know, because I do believe that people can be redeemed.

I wish people had intervened with a lot of these abusers much earlier in their lives because maybe it could have helped them to stop, to change their behavior early on.

And so I think we've got to be, you know, in order to be redemptive, we need to be transparent about what they did.

And so part of our saying, yes, we are, we are praying for redemption here.

This is our brother or sister in Christ.

We want them to come back.

And therefore this is what happens.

And this is what the crime, you know, this is what they have been alleged with doing These are credible allegations.

They have apologized for it, and we're going to put that out publicly because people need to know this and because in order for this person to really be redeemed, they also need to be held accountable for it.

I think by.

By just bringing in that transparency, we can still use that language and reclaim it, who are really bringing restoration.

Yeah, it's difficult.

It is.

I want to be cautious here.

I don't want to use any names because I don't want to get in legal trouble.

And I know you have plenty of good examples yourself, but one example I go to that's been really poignant for me.

And when I talk to people, they seem to understand this one a little bit better.

I know a church where one of the guys working in their youth has gone to court, lied, and had other people lie about what he did with a young woman that, you know, he kind of helped be one of her pastors.

A little bit of, kind of grooming situation.

Knowing the details, I don't think it's as bad as it sounds.

What really makes me the most angry, though, the church doesn't tell anyone.

And to me, even as someone who's not a parent, I'm like, imagine, you know, that lack of transparency.

Your kid is in this youth group, and you don't know that because the church felt like you didn't need to know.

Yeah, that I don't know.

That's the kind of stuff that I'm like, yeah, church unity.

But are we really being the church at this point?

You know?

Right, Absolutely.

And I think that, you know, I think we've hidden behind things like gossip.

We say this is gossip.

You know, gossip is saying something that's not true about person intentionally to slander them or spreading things.

It's not, you know, saying something that's true in order to protect people.

That's not gossip.

And we have.

We have reframed something that is good.

I mean, you know, Jesus didn't tell us to keep secrets, you know, and been told over and over again that when things are in the dark, you know, that.

That we are to bring light to darkness.

And that that's what the gospel does, is it brings light to darkness.

And so I'm not sure why churches keep hiding these things in the dark.

They certainly don't help anything.

And, you know, and really, once they come out, they'll tear churches apart.

And you've allowed those Abus to harm even more people.

Yeah.

And even when the.

The gossiper, you know, is proven correct, they switch and start calling them a whistleblower.

There's still the negative connotations.

Yeah, it is.

It does.

We, people who tell the truth are not looked upon kindly.

I mean, without saying specific names.

The Southern Baptist Convention is a really good example of this.

We can see how the survivors who have come forward with very credible allegations, many of which are backed up by documentation, and yet they have still been treated as pariahs and called, you know, the women called things like whores.

And it's just.

It's just horrific the way that those survivors have been treated.

And even with these credible allegations.

And I think that says something.

You know, we are more quick to protect the pastors than we are to protect the potential victims.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's.

It's like.

I know just a few other examples I know we use.

A lot of times they'll say, and this isn't even outside of the church.

You know, people say, oh, you're just being dramatic when someone's literally just saying what happened.

And it's just like we use different words to just kind of try to belittle when someone tells the truth.

That happens a lot.

Another one, church specific.

I don't know if you've ever heard people avoid the very appearance of evil and it gets mistranslated and applied in weird ways.

I'm like, that's just not what that's about.

Meanwhile, we ignore stuff like Ephesians where it's confess your sins to one another.

Right?

Yeah.

I think people are worried about the shame that comes and.

Which is partly because of what, you know, the way that we have made sexual sin or things that we deem a sexual sin, we've sort of put them beyond the pill, put them out of the church and said that, you know, these are like, the worst things that can happen.

Anybody who's out here, it's like the worst things that can happen.

And so then it makes us more likely to cover those up and to try to.

Anyway, it's just.

I think we have created more problems for the church than we have solved.

Yep.

So you speak a lot about how complementarian ideas can be harmful and how the SBC has harmed many women through both inaction and action.

How do you think the rest of the church should interact with these groups?

Should we refuse to participate in their service?

Should we not go to their events?

Nail 99 PCs to their door?

What do we do?

That is such a good question.

And it's one that, you know, people ask me all the time there, and it's one that I've also had to grapple with.

And I think I kind of have two responses to it.

On the one hand, if we do believe, you know the verse you read at the beginning, if we believe in Jesus Christ, then we are all one in Christ.

And so they are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Even if we disagree on an issue that I would say is very harmful.

Women and to men also.

But I.

So, but yet even with me strongly disagreeing on that, they are still my brothers and sisters in Christ.

And so I think, yeah, there is still.

And we don't want to push them out where there's not any sort of communication, because that doesn't do any good, because then we're not able to have any sort of good influence whatsoever.

And so really what we need to be able to do is to communicate well.

Yet at the same time, I think there are certain places, certain people, certain churches that have proved themselves so untrustworthy and so damaging and so dangerous that we can still say, hey, if you believe in Jesus, you're still my brother and sister in Christ, but we're not going to have anything to do with you right now because of what you have done is so dangerous.

And the theology you're espousing is so dangerous that we're just gonna have to make a statement.

And if you want to come back to us, you can come, but we can't keep coming to you.

And so I think.

I think there's nuance.

I'll use a good holy post word.

Yeah, I think there's nuance in this.

It's neither one way or the other way.

But I think it is important to remember that even people we disagree with are still created in the image of God.

And that people who claim Christ, it's not for us to say that they're not real Christians.

That's not our business.

That's not our thing to do.

Our thing is to love them and show them how and show them the qualities of Christ through the way we interact with them.

Yeah.

And it is challenging.

I'll just speak for myself and just kind of get your thought on this.

We do another podcast, Systematic Ecology, and one of the other hosts on that show is Southern Baptist, a good friend of ours.

We have professors who come on this show occasionally who I went to school with them, who are Southern Baptists, who.

I really respect them.

And I don't know.

For me, it's a weird spot where I'm like, I love working with them on certain projects where I feel more in control, just to be honest.

And I love talking to them.

They're good people, from what I know, and I think they really do love God and Christ.

Yet at the same time, I think if one of them were to ask me to speak at one of their churches or to, you know, endorse something specifically, I'm like, I don't know, like, I could endorse something maybe that you wrote specifically, but something that was written through, you know, SBC Publishing company or something.

Maybe not, you know, and that's.

That's where I find difficulty, because I do know there are good people, even in the sbc, who I think genuinely love God, and I just disagree with them.

That's exactly right.

There are a lot of good people in the sbc.

They have been.

The reason they believe these things is because they have been taught to believe these things, and they have been taught that this is the best way to move forward and that this is the most biblical understanding.

And so the way to counter that is to help them unpack what they have been taught, which means we have to be in conversation with them and we want.

You know, frankly, it would be great if the SBC publishing house would actually publish more diverse voices.

It just doesn't, which is one of the problems with it.

But if it did publish more diverse voices, I think that would go a long way in helping the SBC to become more.

More Big tent Christian if our big tent Baptist, if I can use that phrase.

So I.

But it.

But it is hard, I think.

You know, I always tell people it comes down to your own personal comfort, what you feel is right or wrong on that issue.

And if you are very uncomfortable going into a situation or working with a certain people, then just.

Then just don't do it.

And, you know, I mean, I've struggled with that.

So, too, with some invitations, I've gotten to do certain things.

And it's.

It's.

Sometimes it's a quandary.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A lot of prayer and discernment.

Yes.

Which.

Yeah, sounds like very Southern Baptist language sometimes.

But it's fine.

That stuff.

I still believe.

Yes.

No, I think so, too.

I think it does.

It does require prayer, discernment, and really listening to God about.

About what?

You know, Is it helpful to walk into this area where people who might not otherwise hear your voice might hear you.

That, you know, that would be a good thing.

And the challenging thing is to realize a lot of them are probably asking the same thing when they come on my show and do stuff with me.

So I'm like, You know, there's a little bit of.

Both of us are like, is it worth it?

That's exactly right.

Yeah.

You know, if it's for unity, then we do have to have some of that.

Stepping across the lines.

Yep.

Yes.

So you get interviewed pretty frequently on podcasts and videos and episodes and stuff.

You know, all kinds of stuff.

Super famous.

So are there any questions that you don't get asked very often that you wish you were asked about more often?

Oh, gosh.

You know, I don't people, because I think people are much more attuned to recent history.

I get asked a lot more about the recent history in my books, which, you know, is totally fair.

And especially like the pastor's wife.

I cover such a huge swath of history and it, you know, so.

But sometimes I miss getting to talk about some of those medieval figures, some of those early church figures or things that are really in my wheelhouse, research wise.

But anyway.

But I also totally understand it because I'm the medievalist who started talking about complementarianism and Baptist.

So, you know, that's my fault too.

Can you read like 150 books on pastors wives for your most recent project?

Yeah, it's crazy.

That's so mad.

Most of them are a century from, you know, the early 20th century to the early 21st century, so.

Yeah, so they're very recent.

Yeah.

So.

So do you have a favorite medieval church woman?

Oh, absolutely.

Marjorie Kemp.

Hands down.

Hands down.

Although St Winifred is a close second.

Probably Margaret Beaufort, who was Henry the seventh mom.

She was the beginning of the Tudor dynasty.

She's one of my favorite church women.

She was also very fond of Saint Winifred.

So there.

There's a lot.

There's a lot of.

A lot of women in the medieval world that I could talk about.

In fact, that's my next book.

That I'm excited for.

I love, because, I don't know, it's like, it's hard to find medieval church stuff that's written well, that's what I'm gonna say, because.

No, totally.

And that's accessible.

And that is.

That is accessible.

That is still academically sound.

That is still.

And that is appealing.

It's.

It's challenging.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a way better question than I was going to ask.

I was going to ask who your favorite modern fantasy writer is.

That's.

Oh, that's actually a good question, too.

So modern fantasy writer, you just say Patrick Rothfuss.

I do like Patrick Rothfuss.

He's on myself here behind me.

I'm very afraid of his third book, though, because right now.

Well, the first book was really good.

In the Name of the Name of the Wind.

The second book was.

It wasn't quite.

I don't know.

I was really.

Yeah.

And so I'm a little wondering about the third book.

I'm not sure.

Have you read the short.

The novella?

Yep.

Absolutely.

And I really like that.

It's so good.

They were.

They were the books I had on your bookshelf for a long time, Josh.

Yeah, on the bookshelf right here behind me.

So I also.

Yeah, no, I do a lot.

I do a lot of detective fiction, fantasy, sci fi.

So, anyway, speaking of detective, I think.

The weirdest thing I've been reading lately, Kamagua Food Detectives.

I finished the first book.

It took me forever to realize that there's two more.

It was like a Japanese bestseller.

It was translated to English.

I found it in Colorado.

I have a really weird tendency where I like to go into local bookstores and just ask whoever's working there what I should read, and then I just read whatever they say.

That's a great idea.

Yeah.

No, man.

And I really appreciate.

Because, you know, you're talking about the medieval stuff.

I just really appreciate how you really are one of the few people who's really great at, like, staying academic and still, like, I can read this and feel like I know what's happening.

So I'm really excited for that next book.

Yeah, I'm glad.

Yeah.

But so one other thing we do for everyone, every guest we have on, we like to ask for practical action.

So something that would help better engender church unity today.

What do you think?

Something that our listeners could stop and go do right now to help with Christian unity.

Yeah.

So one of the best things that my family did when we were sort of in between churches is that we went and visited a lot of churches that we would never consider attending just to see how they did things, just to talk with people who were there.

And it was a really good thing for my soul because it helped me see how big the Christian world is, how diverse Christian practices are, and that even people that I would not want to worship in the style that they do, that they are still part of the body of Christ.

And I.

You know, I think a lot of the problem we've had is we've become so siloed, and we only know one type of church experience, and the Christian world is much deeper and broader than that.

And I think if we would just look a little Bigger than ourselves.

We would be much quicker to reach out to people instead of closing them off.

What do you think the world would look like if we all just start doing that?

Wow.

I mean, it would be amazing.

I think.

I think it would certainly broaden our understanding of who God is and what church is.

It would be break down misconceptions.

You know, a lot of the things we read about other churches, a lot of them just aren't true.

And so it's like, well, why don't you go see?

Why don't you go to that church and go visit it?

Go talk to people?

I mean, some of your fears are going to be confirmed.

Like, I remember going to this church.

I'll never forget who had the drive by communion table, which I was just like, oh, my gosh.

Theologically, it's like that.

Just really.

But they were still very Christian.

They weren't still Christian.

And so I think it breaks down those misconceptions.

And also we get to see the people who we thought we were so against.

And even I was at the Southern Baptist Convention just was that last week, I think last week.

And as disturbing as a lot of the things I heard were, it also helped me humanize that these are really people who are seeking the will of God.

And I think what.

I think what they think is the will of God has been distorted.

But nonetheless, there are so many of them.

They are really just trying to seek.

The will of God.

And so it helped me to humanize them.

All right, so before we wrap up, we do like to ask everyone to share a moment where they saw God recently.

Whether it be a blessing, a challenge mode of worship, whatever it may be.

I always make Josh go first, so we have plenty of time to think.

So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

I have plenty.

Finding one is always difficult.

This is the one I'm gonna use this week.

I'll go with the lamest thing I could think of because it's just stuck in my brain.

I have a tendency to overblow things that I have to do in my head where I'm like, I have 5 million things to do.

A lot of the times it's true, sometimes it's not.

This week I was like, oh, man, I have, like, six hours of homework to do.

So I got on to start my homework and I was done in like 15 minutes.

I just did not have that much homework.

And then I was like, ah, well, that's all I had planned for the rest of my day.

My wife was Reading the book.

So I guess we're not watching tv.

I just sat there and played Planet Zoo for a while.

Shocking.

And turned the volume off and listened to outdoors while I was doing it.

I don't have the correct sized table to sit outside and play and it's too hot to run around outside.

So.

Yeah, I just designed a really killer panda exhibit.

And at a nice, refreshing time, I rested in the Lord while playing Steam Duck.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a good moment.

It was great.

Yeah.

So for me, since we've last recorded, I have driven to and from Virginia in the same day to help move one of my best friends back to our city.

And, you know, 615 miles later, it was worth it.

I would do anything for.

Honestly, most people, I just like to get the opportunity to be able to do something like that.

And it feels so good to see the fruits of your labor come true because now one of my best friends lives not five hours away anymore.

Yeah, that's great.

Also named Josh, by the way, with the best opinions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm gonna cheat because I just remembered the God moment I wanted to say that I forgot.

Oh, you're gonna do another one?

Yeah, he wants to.

I'm sorry.

This one, though, I think T.J. will appreciate.

I found out that it was possible for me to request more money for my school if I was like, hey, I need equipment and I needed a computer.

So just got approved today, actually.

And I'm gonna get to get a new computer and support a good friend of mine's business who also sponsors this show.

Check out TJ Tech.

That's what it's called.

It's not what it's called, but yeah.

Yeah.

So that was exciting.

Sweet.

Yeah.

I thought you would like to know that.

And this was a fun time to say it.

So, yeah, that's pretty exciting for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, Dr. Barr, do you have a God moment for us?

Oh, gosh, yes.

I try to look, especially as I've gotten older, in stopping and seeing and looking and seeing where God is working.

An easy one for us this week is that our very tiny, very economically challenged church has had VBS this week.

And we had two new families who we'd never known before, who came and brought their.

And brought their kids.

And just my job, I don't teach small kids.

My job is I do registration.

And then I walk around with my camera and my phone and take pictures of things during.

During the events and listening to those kids learn about Jesus and come and show me their crafts And I just always think I'm like, you know, God, God, you are here and this is what it's all about.

And I'm just thankful I can see that, that I got to see that.

Four nights this week.

Yeah.

Vacation Bible school rocks.

Yeah.

So if you're listening, thank you so much.

Thank you for your time, Dr. Barr.

And please consider sharing the episode with a friend.

Share with your enemies.

Share with a cousin, especially cousins.

We can definitely guilt a cousin into listening to the show, and especially cousins.

Sorry, I. Yeah.

If you're looking for a way to support the show, you can always wear the merch.

Today is one of the only times, just in general, that I've seen Josh without some of it on.

It is really comfy, but it's super comfy.

It looks good, it's understated, and it'll take start a conversation.

So check it out.

Support us.

Support yourself.

Yeah.

Also, I'm going to break format for a second.

Dr. Barr, do you have a couple minutes after the show to do a bonus thing for our patrons?

Sure, if you have time.

Sweet.

In that case, also consider supporting us on Patreon.

For a fun bonus question, I want to pick Dr. Barr's brain a little bit more about Thomas Aquinas.

I want to hear more about why we don't like him.

So if you want just to hear us bash Thomas Aquinas, it'll be on Patreon.

I might even make it a free one because I think everyone needs to hear this.

So don't support us on Patreon.

You're gonna get it for free anyway.

Well, yeah, you could still, like, you could still subscribe.

There's a free tier.

You can subscribe.

So anytime that I'm like, something should be free.

We still get the free stuff, but we also appreciate if you do like a dollar or two, it's fine.

But other things you should do is check out other shows in the network on Azale Podcast network, something we're supposed to support because we're a part of it.

And I think we started it.

We sure did.

Yeah.

Like Brandon Knights, my seminary life.

Great stuff.

You know, we mentioned our SBC friend, let nothing move you.

That's a Bible podcast.

He does.

If you want.

If you want to hear that take or if you want here, a more progressive take on the Bible.

So do both.

This is what I always think is good to hear both sides.

Check out the Bible after hours with the foul mouth preacher.

I'm not as progressive as that side and nowhere near as conservative as a Christian side.

So if you hear both and you find the middle, that might be where I'm at.

Yeah.

All right.

Yeah.

We hope you enjoyed it.

Next week we're going to be talking with Josh Patterson about some backlash he received about a podcast he shared in a Christian group and how we hope our own groups might handle similar situations.

After that, we'll be speaking with Jonathan Mackin, an Anglican autism researcher, about his work with faith and those on the spectrum.

They were going to be speaking with Brian Wrecker about his book Hell Bent and how doctrines about hell may be harmful.

Finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show.

But he doesn't maybe so someone does have to tell him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or it will never happen and you'll have like five more years of season one.

Yep.

Which, which you will.

Which you will.