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Podcast is brought to you by Head Start Basketball.

It's all habits.

It's all mindsets of work, work, work and take anything and don't set boundaries and never say no.

And once I realized like okay, this was all me, it wasn't the game, it shifted everything for me and realized like okay, it's your habits and I need to help coaches realize that their habits are what's getting in the way.

Cooper Nieman is a performance coach for college basketball coaches.

Niemann helps college coaches gain control, prioritize themselves, and build championship habits and cultures.

Cooper was previously a men's basketball assistant coach at D2 Lincoln Memorial University in Tennessee, where he began his tenure in 2019.

Prior to that, he was an assistant at D2 Lander University in South Carolina for two seasons.

Neiman also spent four years on the coaching staff at Wesleyan Christian Academy in High Point, North Carolina under head coach and ACC legend Keith Gatlin.

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Be prepared with a notebook and pen as you listen to this episode with Cooper Niemann, performance coach for college basketball coaches.

Hello and welcome to the Hoopets Podcast.

It's Mike Cleansing here without my co host Jason Sunkel tonight, but I am pleased to be joined from coach Coop Cooper.

Neiman Cooper.

Welcome to the Hoop Heads pod man.

Mike, thanks for having me.

Big fan of what you guys do and how much you guys have a passion for growing the game.

Absolutely.

We are thrilled to be able to have you on.

I always say that I can never possibly give back to the game of basketball anything close to what it's given me.

So whatever small piece of that this podcast represents, that's what it's all about for me, is giving back to a game that I can, I can never repay for what it's given me in my life.

But for you, your journey has gone through a couple of different transitions and going from coaching to now consulting with college coaches.

So we're going to get there and work through your timeline, but let's start sort of at the end.

Give us an idea of what it is today that you're doing and then as we go through your story, we're going to dive into it much deeper, but just kind of off the top, let people know out there what it is that you do day to day.

Yeah, I'm a performance coach for college coaches.

I work one on one with coaches to help them gain control, prioritize themselves and build championship habits and culture.

Coaches are expected to do it all, lead, develop players, manage a team and win.

But there's nowhere to turn for their own growth and well being.

And they're expected to figure out everything on their own while they're being pulled in so many different directions.

And when a, when a coach is struggling, their team struggles.

And that's where I come in.

I provide a safe space for coaches to sharpen their leadership abilities, refine their coaching and improve their overall well being so they can thrive in the role, but most importantly, give their team a competitive advantage.

We are going to get into all the details of how you do that, why you do that, how you got started doing that as we go through the podcast.

But first, let's go back to when you were a kid.

Tell me about how you got introduced to the game of basketball and what made you fall in love with it.

I don't know what introduced me to basketball.

I know there was always one in the house.

Um, my dad wasn't a basketball player, my mom definitely was not a basketball player.

But I was a kid who grew up in the park.

All the older kids were playing basketball and I would just go to the park, it was in the center of our neighborhood, and just watch the older guys play, hoping somebody got hurt so I could jump in there or hope Someone got called home, so I could jump in there and play.

Absolutely.

And just kind of fell in love with it ever since.

When you think about just coming to the game without.

Because so often, Cooper, we hear about people who.

It was their family's influence, right?

So my dad was a coach or my mom was a player, or we were just a huge sports family, and my older brother was playing, and so I tagged along with him.

So for you to kind of come to the game on your own without that family influence is kind of a unique story.

So when you think about yourself playing the game and developing as a player without a family there to.

And I don't want to say not support, but a family that didn't push you into it, because that was the family business, what was it like for you getting out and trying to find ways to improve and play and just give yourself opportunities?

I think it was a blessing.

You know, I think too many kids today, their parents think they know way too much.

And so my parents didn't know anything.

They just knew how to support.

My dad was a huge Lakers and Knicks fan, so I was, you know, pushed towards Latrell Speed Row and Kobe Bryant growing up.

But other than that, it was.

It was.

It was cool, you know, I didn't get any extra pressure.

My.

My dad thought I was the greatest thing walking, you know, but he didn't.

He didn't know enough to.

To yell at refs or coaches.

He was just there to support.

And my mom had no clue what was going on in games, so she was just happy to see me with my friends playing.

And, yeah, I would say it was a blessing.

As a young kid, were you at all thinking about basketball from a coaching perspective, or were you strictly thinking about yourself as a basketball player?

Because what I've found here on the podcast is that coaches usually come from one of those two schools where you have the kid who's playing, but when they're in third grade, they've got napkins spread out around them and they're drawing plays up, or they're telling their friends, hey, this is what we got to do, and this and that, and that's one path.

And then the other path is the kid who plays and plays and plays and goes to whatever level they end up playing at, whether that's.

They finish as a high school player, they finish as a college player, they play professionally, but at some point, the ball stops bouncing.

And then they look around and they're like, oh, man, I.

I gotta stay in the game of basketball somehow.

Maybe What I need to do, maybe what I need to do is coach.

I don't know.

When you're a kid, are you thinking at all about coaching or is that something that you're not thinking about at that time?

I didn't find out I wanted to be a coach until a lot later.

I thought I was going to the league.

You know, I was, I was a delusional kid.

I, I, I thought I was going to the league.

When I would go to the park and practice by myself as a young kid, I was picturing like, or imagining like the Wizards GM would see me shooting and putting in these reps and sign me to like a like mic, 10 day contract.

You know, I was, I didn't know, I didn't realize I was going to not play in the NBA until late, you know, till like freshman year of college.

That's when I realized like, oh, you're, you're not going to make it.

You know, I was always smarter than everybody else on the court.

I was slower, but I was, I did have a knack for coaching.

I was like a players coach.

Like my coaches would let me call plays or, you know, I, I did have that, but I, I thought I was going to the NBA.

We all did, right?

I mean, I think that's something that any kid who grows up with the ball in your hand, especially if you don't have somebody there, it's saying, well, you may want to think twice about that.

Nobody wants to crush your dream, right?

They're just like, right?

Yeah, you keep, you keep, you keep, you keep going after it.

Cooper.

You keep going after it.

Mike.

You're gonna, you're, you're going to get there eventually.

But yeah, and I was, it's, it's the best kid.

Yeah, I was the best kid in the neighborhood.

So I thought, you know, I was like, oh, I'm, I'm special.

I'm the chosen one.

Exactly.

My parents, we didn't know too much about aau.

What I didn't take into fact about the neighborhood was the best kids in the area were going to private schools and I was at public school, you know, so.

But yeah, I grew up in a very rich basketball area.

I shouldn't knew a little earlier than I did, but I got there eventually.

Tell me about your favorite experience as a high school player.

My favorite experience was actually with my rec team.

You know, we, we grew up in rec centers as well, as well as the park.

And my rec center coach was my same coach from 6th to 12th grade and he created A family out of every coach I've worked with and been a part of, he probably knew the least about basketball, but he knew the most about how to get a group to believe in each other.

And that is still my family to this day.

Every single one of those guys that were on the team we went through, we were able to.

We were a rec team.

We were all from the same area, but we were able to play in some AAU tournaments and held our own for a bunch of neighborhood kids.

When you think about his influence, obviously one of those things is right to get people to buy in.

But when you think about what you learned during your time as a coach, the things that you share with your clients now, what's one other thing that you've taken from him that you feel like is still ingrained and is a part of you that's made you a good coach and something that you can share and pass on his legacy to some of the clients that you work with today?

Yeah, I mean, showing kids that you're there for them more than basketball.

His house was always open when like we would go there Thursday nights for our practice.

We catch the bus, go to his house before practice.

He took us to every games.

I mean it was just.

He was definition of a servant leader.

And he really was so good at telling us how good we were as well as telling us how much harder we had to work at the same time.

And that was all through relationships and just if you could show people how much you care about them, they will play so hard for you.

And he also, another, he.

He taught me a lot, just competing, you know, we.

The curtain would go down at 7:30 and ping pong would come in on the other side.

And that's when we knew it was time for war.

It was, it was five on five half court, no outs, no fouls.

And he let us go after it, you know, and, and foul each other and fight.

But that made us so much stronger, you know, and so just, I think it really showed me not to be afraid of iron, sharpening iron and letting the, the sparks fly.

So once you come to the realization that coaching is maybe something that you want to do, was it a light bulb moment or was it more of a gradual realization?

No, man, I was.

I got my first job out of.

In college.

I came home and I was doing outdoor painting.

And then my old.

One of my old coaches was like, I got a second grade team.

Why don't you come help out with that?

And so I would paint all day in the heat.

And then I would go work with the second graders, and I loved it.

And then eventually with that program, I ended up working all the camps and, and doing, running the whole program, pretty much having my own workouts, my own second grade team.

And then I just did that over the summers.

And then in college, I still didn't know what I wanted to be.

I didn't think you could go to college to be a college coach.

You know, I had no clue.

So I, I, I love people.

And so I got a human relations degree, and then I got an athletic coaching minor, which really set up the rest of my coaching career.

Those second graders, what did you love about coaching right from the very minute that you started doing it?

What was it about those kids and stand it up in front of them as their coach that you took to immediately that you knew, this is, this is where I want to be?

How fast they learned, how smart they were, how, how much they just needed a positive influence.

And honestly, I think the biggest thing I learned from that group was how to deal with emotion.

You know, they're second graders, so they were literally crying, you know, and like having tender tantrums.

And just learning that early and how to work around that was huge for my career.

Yeah.

I think that one of the things that I've learned, Cooper, on this podcast, and I've also experienced it in my own life with the camps that I've been doing for.

I don't even know.

I think I'm at, like, 33 years or something.

But all the camps that I've run, the majority of them have been for elementary school kids.

And so when I see somebody who is good working with kids at that level, there's a unique skill set that you have to be able to, have to engage those kids to be able to teach the game at a level that they can grab onto and then be able to have fun with, which ultimately is the most important thing.

When you start talking about elementary school kids and there, there's people out there that are great working at all different age groups.

And I think sometimes there's a misnomer that great coaches are at the highest levels.

And that's not to say there aren't great coaches at the highest levels, because there are.

But you can look at all levels of college basketball, you can look at high school basketball, you can look at middle school basketball, you can look at AAU basketball, you can look at rec basketball, and you can find coaches who are great at what they do in the environment where they are.

And it sounds like you were able to quickly adapt to, hey, I got some second graders in front of me.

I got to figure out how to make this work and make it fun and learn as a coach.

And then obviously for you, you then eventually, and we'll get to this, have an opportunity to coach at the college level.

So you're coaching players who are different age, obviously a lot different size and skill and all those kinds of things.

But just I think to be able to know what to do in front of a group of second graders and to be able to connect and as you said, watch them learn, that's really has to be something that I'm sure for your first job found.

You found it to be inspiring that, as you said, it kind of catapulted you into to doing more with that particular organization.

Yeah, I mean, I.

It teaches you how to be creative, you know, in teaching.

And then I also think your practice, like, I was going.

I was doing the real thing, like I was having practice plans.

And, you know, you have to be good in practice.

You have to be able to adjust when they have no clue what's going on and scrap that drill or, you know, and you have.

Their attention span is.

Is super short and just being able to adapt, but then mostly just relate to people, you know, it's.

They're.

They're.

You know, you gotta coach them like anybody else.

You know, what's the universal through line for connecting with people in your mind?

You said earlier that you're a people person.

When you think about what that means, what's the.

What's the connection?

A way that you can relate and connect with second graders, that works with college students, that works with adults.

What have you found in your life that's enabled you to be able to connect with players at all these different levels that you've coached at, and then obviously now connecting and emotionally with coaches as well?

Yeah, I think you have to, one, be yourself, because if you're not yourself, people will be afraid to be themselves around you.

I think humor is a part of it.

And then really curious about people and where they're from and how they operate and what motivates them, what you know, I love different cultures, so in recruiting, I was always asking so many questions about where they're from, what's it like there?

You know, I grew up in a very diverse area.

I think that helped me a ton.

I was exposed to all different types of people from racial backgrounds to socioeconomic backgrounds.

So I was very comfortable with all types of stories.

And that, I think, helped Me a lot as well.

I love that concept of making sure that you are authentic and being yourself, because so often I think this happens.

I know it happened to me as a young coach, and I think it happens a lot of times to young coaches that we tend to try to emulate either the coaches that we played for or maybe the coaches that we worked for or with initially.

And I could speak to my own experience that when I coach, I don't want to say I'm necessarily quiet guy, but I'm not a guy who's going to yell and scream and get in somebody's face.

But I have worked for, with, played under coaches who would do that.

And in a lot of cases, I saw those types of coaches having a lot of success.

And so there's a part of me that said, well, I have to do that.

And I find that whenever.

As.

As a young guy, whenever I tried to do that, it completely like, I couldn't even take myself seriously.

Yeah, when I was.

When I was yelling, I'm like, this is so.

There's.

There's no way.

When.

When I'm yelling and I've kind of got this, like, goofy grin on my face as I'm doing it.

There's no way any kid is gonna.

There's no way any kid is gonna.

There's no way any kid is gonna take me seriously.

So I have to go back to being who I am, which is I.

I'm gonna put expectations on you.

I'm gonna still have demands.

I'm gonna still hold you accountable, but I have to do it than somebody who's going to yell.

It sounds like you maybe had a similar experience at some point.

Yeah, I coached when I got out the game, and we'll get to it later.

But I needed to get back in the gym for a sense of community.

And I coached a freshman team and then actually was able to move up with them to jv.

It was our last game of the year, and we're going for our JV title of the city.

And we were playing awful.

And I.

I was talking to my assistants before going in there, and I was like, man, I think I'm about to just go off.

Go off on them.

It's time.

And then as soon as I walked in the locker room, I just stayed calm, and I was like, I was gonna go off on you guys, but, you know, that's not me.

And it's.

It's.

You have to stay true to yourself.

So tell me about the first job that you get following graduation and what that looks like and where you thought your career path was going at the time you graduated from High Point.

Yeah, so in High Point, I had to get a, in my athletic coaching minor.

I had to work with a high school team and I was lucky enough that Wesleyan Christian Academy was pretty much on campus and they had the number one player in the country at the time.

They had the number six ranked senior in the country and a boatload of talent.

And so I had to just get some hours and follow a coach.

And I was.

Fell into coach Keith's lap.

Coach Keith Gatlin, he was played at Maryland, he was ACC legend, played with Len Bias, went overseas, played for a long time, and I got, I got to follow him everywhere.

We were going to top 100 camps, we were traveling the country seeing the best players play, competing against the best players, NBA players in high school.

And I learned so much from him.

And after my senior year, I asked him if I could come back and he said sure.

And I was a volunteer assistant pretty much there.

I mean, I got a little check and then helped with JV and worked at a car dealership.

But I wanted to be a coach.

I was all in.

Now.

I was young and I, I thought I knew a lot more than I did, but I was just, I was, you know, just so excited to be around this, this type of level of basketball.

So that was my first stop out of graduation.

And because I had everybody coming to the gym, I thought I was going to the league again.

You know, I thought I was.

I thought my next stop was a high major just because everybody was coming to me.

I was running the workouts while coach Keith Talked to all 50 of the coaches and everybody, you know, and I was rubbing elbows with pros who were coming back to our gym, big time college coaches.

And so that's, that's where I started.

What sets those guys apart who eventually made it to the NBA that were a part of that program at Wesleyan Christian?

What set those guys apart?

Obviously, physical tools and skill level.

But maybe what are some of the intangibles that those NBA, eventual NBA guys had while you were around them that just makes them different?

Because I've had lots of coaches on that just talk about the fact that so many of us, we see guys in the NBA.

You see whether it's their physical skills or they're, they're just their size.

And we're like, yeah, you know this guy, look, yeah, of course he's 610 with a 74 wingspan.

So of course he's going to make the NBA.

And everybody that works with NBA players just tells me that you have no idea the work ethic and the attention to detail and all those things.

So I'm just curious as to what.

Your experience was like, uh, for the ones that went to the NBA.

And pretty much everybody that kind of came through the program was just be a sponge.

You know, Coach Keith was a pro and he, he brought a bunch of pros around and so just learn game.

From the older guys.

You could tell from an early age the younger guys who would come in and, and get beat up and would stay extra or, or really hate it to, to lose to the pros or to the older upperclassmen, you could tell early like, okay, he got something under him.

But the guys that were like, I'm coming to yoga with you guys, I'm going to the steam room, you know, let's hit the pool.

Like all bought into the weights.

Like just wanted to, to get there and then honestly, just good people.

I had Theo Penson who played at unc, unbelievable person.

Aaron Wiggins who plays for okc, unbelievable person.

Harry Giles was the number one player in the country.

Unbelievable person.

You know, they all kind of had that it factor and that's, that's going on top of a bunch of high major guys and a few other NBA guys.

But I think the, the sponge mentality as well as the like, okay, big brother's beating me up, but that's not okay.

You know, I don't care that I have to wait my turn.

Like that's not okay.

How did you build your confidence when it comes to working with these guys who are playing the game at such a high level?

I know that's something when we'll talk to young coaches and sometimes I'll feel it's right that imposter syndrome of man.

Who am I to be sharing with these guys who are NBA caliber players?

Why, why are they going to listen to me?

Why, why should they listen to me and why should they take what I'm saying seriously?

Why should they be a part of my workouts?

How did you develop the confidence to be able to go through those workouts and to be able to put guys through and have all these coaches in the gym and, and watching you.

What was your preparation process and, and you're learning, you're learning mentality that allowed you to go out there and do the things that you did?

Because I think sometimes that a lack of confidence sometimes can kill that.

And so you have to I think go through your prep and do that.

So just tell me about your process for feeling like, hey, I'm confident in what I'm doing here.

Yeah, no, it's definitely different when your players are over the summer playing for Team usa, you know, and then they come back to you.

But I, I just learned a lot watching Coach Keith and I was very good at just picking up stuff quickly.

And then also I was with the guys, I wasn't that much older than them.

You know, I think I was four years older than them.

And so I was in the weights with them, I was sweating with them.

I would play pickup with them.

And then I just, I think I just built trust through just being around.

I would open the gym for them, I would, whatever they needed.

The trust came from being around and being present and also being there for the right reasons.

You know, these guys are getting pulled by sneaker companies and, and AU teams and colleges and handlers and just to be a relief of someone there purely for them.

I guess that helped my confidence.

I was just there for the right reasons.

You know, I put in the work, I would, I would watch YouTube stuff, but most of it was just feel, you know, I learned from Coach Keith how to have a quick, intense workout, get right to it and keep the guys moving and then end with some competition.

And you know, at the end of the day, they were 15 to 18 year olds and they, they just would look up to anybody.

I think that what you just said there in terms of putting the time in and making sure that those players understood that you were there to help them.

And I think that ability to be authentic with your players and to have them know that you care about them, and you talked about it earlier, not just care about them as basketball players, but care about them as people.

And if a player knows that you have their best interest at heart, that's the best way to be able to sell yourself right now.

There has to be some technical knowledge behind that, but certainly when a player knows that you have their back and that you're there to support them and to be able to try to help them to reach their goals, it's a lot easier to get buy in from somebody than when a player thinks that you're just there because, hey, I'm using this workout to try to be able to get that next job or to just be able to.

Nowadays, posted on social media or whatever, people can see through, players can see through that, that facade very, very quickly.

And it sounds like you were able to get in there.

And again, as you said, build trust with the players, because you were there for the right reasons.

And obviously in Coach Gatlin, you had a really good mentor in terms of, in terms of doing those things.

Yeah, and I also, you know, I started from the bottom.

I, I didn't step out of place.

I just rebounded for a while until I was like, can I get on the bus?

Then after I got on the bus, it was like, let me do a workout.

You know, they saw me work and yeah, I was always confident in, in the basketball piece for sure.

So, as you said, you're getting a lot of high level coaches that are coming in to watch these guys.

You're getting an opportunity, I'm assuming, to occasionally have conversations with those coaches.

What's the mindset in terms of where you see your career path?

I know you said at the beginning, you're like, hey, I'm going next stop NBA.

Right.

I'm seeing all these guys coming in and so I'm, I'm moving on to coaching the NBA.

As you started to talk to people and look at it and just like you did as a player, sort of come to the realization of that's not necessarily the career path that I'm going to get the opportunity to take, what did you start to look at in terms of how you were going to manage your career from that point going forward?

Were you thinking, hey, high school coaching?

Were you still thinking college coaching?

Were you thinking, maybe I can go and volunteer and work my way into maybe the NBA G League?

Or just what was the thought process?

No, I was set on college.

Um, and I, I started shifting towards the end at Wesleyan, towards, okay, I need to go get a ga.

A ga job.

And I started practicing for the gre, which was terrible.

Never even ended up taking it.

Reached out to a bunch of people and I, I really was like, it's hard to get in.

Like, this is hard.

Like, my coach knows everybody.

Like, it's not a handout.

You know, I just got to keep plugging away, keep being in the right places.

And it just happened to fall in my lap where a former pro who was rehabbing was working with our bigs during the year.

And he asked me, would you ever do D2?

And I was like, I'll do, I'll do anything.

You know, I'll go anywhere.

And it was late.

It was like October.

And I interviewed and got on campus at Lander University the first day of practice.

And that's where I started my got into college level at the D2 level in Greenwood, S.C.

and kind of Took off from there.

What do you remember about the first couple weeks on the job as a college assistant?

What struck you as being something that maybe you hadn't thought about?

Maybe something that was surprising to you, maybe something that you love.

Just what stood out in those first two or three weeks of having that job.

First two or three weeks, was how much extra stuff besides basketball there is, I think.

And then as far as game planning, like just how much goes into coaching, like it was a lot, you know, and also being, you know, going to the D2 level, I had no clue.

Maryland, we didn't have any D2 schools, so I didn't really.

I wasn't familiar with the level at all.

And we were, we had grown men, you know, a lot of D1 bounce backs.

Our whole league was D1 bounce backs at the time, or guys who weren't eligible for D1.

And you know, we had grown men, we had guys who were just as old as me there.

And I mean, I.

At that level you have to do everything.

And so I, I did, you know, and yeah, just the first two weeks, I just remember how, how long the list is of, of things I need to do.

I think that's something that, for former players, for people who haven't been around a college coaching staff, I always hear that same surprise that you just expressed of, man, there is a lot of things to do that aren't necessarily directly related to coaching basketball on the practice floor or during games.

And I know I can speak to my time a long time ago as a player that I just figured Practice starts at 3:00, it ends at 6, coaches show up at 2:45, get there a little bit before the players, and practice ends at 6.

And just like I'm taking a shower and going back to the dining hall to eat and then going back to my dorm or my apartment, coaches are doing the same thing.

And really as a player had no idea of all the things that go into being a college coach.

And it sounds like for you, you stepped into it and probably had some idea, but certainly probably not the complete picture of what it was going to be like as you step into that role.

And not only that, but at the Division 2 level, as you said, you got your hand and everything, which I'm sure looking back, you appreciate because it gave you the, a wide breadth of experience in doing all these different things.

Yeah, no, for sure, it was, it was a, a wonderful experience.

You know, we were right at.500 team, you know, so we got great games, bad games, you Know, I was a guidance counselor, I was an Uber driver, I was a therapist, I was a bus driver.

I was everything, you know, and, and learned so much, really learned there about recruiting.

It's, it's changed a lot, the landscape of, of it.

But understanding how to recruit and kind of how much goes into it and just the so many different levels.

How long did it take you to get a feel for the level of player that you needed to recruit there at Lander in order to win games?

Because I think when you step into a school, right, you have to understand a, what's the level of player that we need to be able to compete.

But then you also have to understand what's the type of player that my head coach wants to coach and feels comfortable with and is going to fit our system.

And I'm always kind of amazed at how quickly guys are able to sort of adapt and figure out like, okay, this is the type of player we need to recruit.

Because for me, as somebody who has never recruited at the college level, I can walk into a gym and I can watch a game and I'm sure you can do the same thing where you can identify like, okay, most fans walk into a gym and they see this kid scored 10 points, that kid's the best player.

But you and I can walk into a gym and watch a kid score 10 points and tell you, no, this kid over here is the best player because that kid just knows how to play.

But yet I'm not so sure that I could be confident in, yeah, that kid can play, but does that mean that kid can play at the mid major Division one?

Is that kid at division two players in division three?

So how did you get comfortable and how long did it take you to get comfortable with being able to understand the type of player that you needed to recruit at that level?

Yeah, that, that took a time.

That took some time.

For me.

Honestly, I don't think I got the craft of recruiting and knowing level until I left there.

I was only at Lander for two years.

It was at LMU where I really started getting an eye for all of that.

I think at Lander I really figured out like you have to recruit one, who your coach can coach and, and two, who, who could take your coaches coaching?

You know, that's, that's, that's something that I learned.

I, it was, I, Coach Roberts was a special guy at Lander, but he was, he was a little different and his players had to be able to adapt to him as well, you know, and his leadership styles and and what he likes more old school type of guy.

So you know that limits some stuff when you're out there recruiting.

And so really knowing your head coach is super important.

What are some things that you look for and you can talk to either one of your stops from an intangible standpoint.

Clearly there's a basketball skill level that a player has to have.

But what were some of the things that your two head coaches liked or that you personally liked in a player that you felt would lead to them having success at the college level beyond their skill?

Yeah, how much they impact winning, how many winning plays they're making, how, how they move as far as, just as a person at lmu, we love size and in skill.

We liked everybody to be able to do everything.

So like kind of like the unicorns.

So.

But you want guys that are super competitive and, and know how to play, you know, just know how to work a ref, know how to, how to talk on the court, know how to, to lose, know how to win.

Just really like guys who know hoops and, and then you gotta do your background information of like, okay, how much does hoops mean to them and where are they trying to go with this?

And we always went after guys who wanted the best competition, who wanted to go somewhere with basketball.

School mattered.

But these guys were, were super competitive in hungry.

And you can, you can tell that.

And it wasn't always scoring.

You know, a lot of people like athletes and people who would dump the ball.

We, we liked people who knew how to hoop and really impacted winning and infected winning like that.

And I like that that is something that right Is to some degree it's in the eye of the beholder.

I think somebody who's a basketball person knows exactly what you're talking about.

I think someone who maybe is not a basketball person might nod their head and say, oh yeah, you want somebody who can play the game.

Right.

I get that.

But they don't really necessarily understand exactly what that means.

But, but I know exactly what you mean.

And then from a competitive standpoint, I think that oftentimes I'll hear coaches talk about wanting players who are competitive.

And then my follow up question is always, well, how do you evaluate that when you're watching a player?

How do you know whether a player is competitive?

And your answer that you shared there is one that I hadn't heard before which is, does that player want to do something with basketball beyond college?

Right.

If I'm having a conversation, I say, hey, I want to be able to play professionally when I'm done.

Well, that guy better be getting after it.

Right.

In order to be able to compete, first of all, at the college level.

And then secondly, if you're going to play professionally, you better be putting in a lot of time and effort and work at your game over the course of your college career, however long that may be.

And that's a way of evaluating competitiveness that I hadn't heard before, but it's one that makes a lot of sense to me.

Right.

If I want to continue my career beyond college, I better be ready to compete now, today, tomorrow, and certainly in the future when I go and try to compete against other fellow players who may want to play professionally.

I thought that was a really interesting answer.

Yeah.

When, you know, at lmu, we were really good.

We had a ton of pros and we wanted guys who wanted to be pros.

One, because it helps us, you know, if, if everybody in there will work every day and go after it because they want to be a pro, that helps us in the long run.

You know, a lot of people are afraid of individual goals, but they help you if you can teach people and motivate them that their individual goal could be met, you know, with team goals.

What are some characteristics of a head coach that you appreciate now, looking back as an assistant coach, so maybe even when you talk to guys that you're working with in the coaching profession today, what are some characteristics of a head coach that you feel are assistant friendly?

Maybe for lack of a better way of saying it, what do assistant coaches appreciate about a head coach?

Oh, head coaches that share camp money, you know, because assistants are keeping tabs there.

They're working hard.

No, but one, coaches that allow you to be yourself, you know, and, and give you freedom because they know that you want this as bad as they do.

A coach that puts you on their team and it feels like you're coaching with them and not for them.

A coach that holds you to a high standard and isn't afraid to let you know how you're doing, but at the same time isn't afraid to let you know you're doing a good job.

A coach that been there before and, and can.

Understands it and will leave a helping hand.

You know what I mean?

And honestly, just a coach who, who is a good person, you know, it's, it's.

At the end of the day, that's really what it comes down to.

Someone as an assistant, if you feel like your head coach cares for you, and if a job was on the table, he would say Go take it.

You know, that's a better position for you.

That's somebody you want to work for, somebody who will be at your wedding, you know, somebody who you can call at any, any time.

And when I, when I kind of left Lander in a weird situation, my coach resigned halfway through the year and new coach came in.

And when I went to coach shirts at lmu, I.

I just said, look, I'm going to look up to you as, as a role model, you know, and, and if, if a good opportunity comes, I just want you to steer me in the right direction.

And he said one thing I'll never forget.

He's like, my job is, is not only to develop players, but is to develop my coaching staff.

And that just, like, was true.

He.

He gave me stuff to, to grow as a coach.

He always put me out there to get better as a coach.

And that's something I'll never forget.

I think that's one of the most underrated aspects of a great head coach, is that ability to develop assistant coaches.

Develop your coaching tree and give your assistance room to grow.

When I think about the best head coaches that have an impact on their staffs, I think about somebody who is willing to delegate, which isn't always easy to do because many head coaches, especially, I think the younger you are, the more you want to have your hand in every little thing and every decision and kind of oversee what's going on.

But what I found with coaches who have gained more experience over the course of their career and talking to them on the podcast, those coaches almost universally say that as I got older and I gained more experience, what I was able to do.

If Cooper is my assistant coach when I was young, I might tell Cooper, well, hey, you go ahead and do the scout.

But while Cooper's doing the scout, guess who's also doing the scout?

Me.

Because I don't necessarily trust Cooper, but as I get older, I realize the reason why I hired Cooper is because he knows what he's doing.

And maybe he brings a different perspective than what I bring.

And I'm still going to have oversight over what he's doing, but I'm going to allow him to do his job, which is a going to help me, but it's also going to help that assistant coach to be able to grow and learn and all those things.

And I think that sometimes outside of the coaching profession, people don't always understand just how important that assistant coach coach relationship is, both in terms of the development of the assistant coach, but also the head coach.

Helping the assistant to get a job through the networking and through recommendations and all those kinds of things and helping that assistant coach to grow.

I think it's super overrated, Cooper.

Underrated.

Sorry.

Yeah.

No, and I agree.

And I think another thing that another great trait in a head coach and I in coach shirts and coach Jeremiah who I worked for, they didn't care where a good idea came from.

You know, gas were in, in our, in our pre, pre game meetings, everybody you know, if, if it didn't matter who said, if it was our manager who said or a player who said I think this player should guard him or I think we should do this to a ball screen when this guy's comes off, it didn't matter as long as we thought it would help.

It didn't matter where it came from.

And that that is huge too.

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Is this for you to find out more?

Tell me about the decision to step away from coaching and get into the consulting business that you have now.

Let's start with just the decision, the thought process and how difficult it was to step away from coaching and maybe the why behind it.

Yeah, it was, it was really hard.

I knew early in the year, I think right before the season started that this was going to be my last year.

I was burnt out.

You know, I, I coach shirts left we unbelievable job and then coach Jeremiah took over and me and him were in the office all day and I didn't realize it at the time, I thought it was the game and the extra pressure, but I was, I was setting myself up for failure with my own mindset of, we got to keep this going.

You know, it's on us.

Everybody thinks we're going to fail, which was good, but then it was also unhealthy.

And I super successful career as far as wins and losses and growing young men.

But I was tapped out and the wins weren't as exciting.

And going up the ranks wasn't exciting to me anymore.

I like, just to put in perspective, I never lost a home game in four years at lmu.

Like, we were special.

People would die to be in my spot.

I was the highest paid assistant in the region.

I had it made there, but it didn't feel like it, you know, And I was living in a Dorm Pretty much 30.

My fiance moved.

She.

I met her at LMU.

She moved.

And I was like, you know, I just can't see myself doing this, you know, and that scared me because this is all I know.

I worked, I poured my heart and my, My dreams changed on me overnight.

And so I owed it to the kids to give them everything I got.

I didn't really have anywhere to go.

I couldn't tell coach Jeremiah because he's like my best friend and I, I didn't want him to worry about me.

I couldn't tell Coach Shirts because he's in coaching tree with Jeremiah.

I couldn't tell coach with Todd Omar, who's at Lander, who worked with Jeremiah as well.

You know, I didn't want my family to worry about me, so I didn't have anywhere to go.

Just told my parents and then we had an unbelievable year.

Went to the elite eight.

I'll never forget my birthday was sweet 16.

Cutting down the nets.

I'm the only one who knows that I'm leaving, and I'm just like devastated.

Go to Elite 8.

Our best player tour is ACL in the Sweet 16.

And go to the Elite 8 and get smacked.

It was a bad way to, to leave on national television just getting a 30 ball.

But, you know, I told coach Jeremiah as soon as we got back, I told him I had no clue what I wanted to do.

I didn't have a resume, you know, I wanted to end the season for the guys the right way.

Told the team, just was hurt, you know, and.

And had no clue what was coming next.

Got out, thought I was like, I just need time to breathe.

I breathed for about two weeks and then was like, okay, I got to do something.

And had no clue what to do.

Interviewed a bunch of life coaches to figure out like, what my next steps were.

And all of them were like, have you considered coaching?

I had no clue what it was.

I thought it was a money grabber, to be honest.

And then I learned more about it.

And coach Jeremiah, when I, in my exit meeting with him, he's like, if you want to be our, our, our guy to talk to the players, individual players, like a sports psychologist or, you know, mental performance coach for coaches, I would hire you.

So I called him right back and was like, what.

What were you thinking about that?

And got a first contract before I even knew what I was doing.

And then I learned about the art of coaching and asking powerful questions and bringing out the answers within people and kind of took off from there.

How do you think that.

What you thought it was going to be those first, that first opportunity when you start looking at what it means to, to be a coach, to be a consultant in the role that you're in now, how does it look different today than maybe when what you thought it would look like as you were first getting started?

You know, after talking to you, I realized I'm a big dreamer.

Like, I thought I knew everybody, everybody likes me.

It's just going to take off.

It was a lot harder than that.

But I learned more about myself than anything.

You know, one, I learned how much coaches need this and how much a space for coaches to, to breathe and to think about themselves and work on themselves is huge.

I realized how much I needed it, but then I found out so much about myself from going being a part of a team to working remote, you know, and realizing how much what I missed as well as realizing the habits that I needed to reprogram and, and to have let me have a successful life.

You know, I, in the two weeks I, when I got out, I started walking dogs on Rover and I ended up burning myself out.

Just the same thing.

Like it was.

I just.

That's where I realized it's habits.

It's all habits.

It's all mindsets of work, work, work and take anything and don't set boundaries and never say no.

And, and once I realized like, okay, this is, this was all me.

It wasn't the game.

It shifted everything for me and realized like, okay, it's your habits and I need to help coaches realize that their habits are, are what's getting in the way.

What are some habits that you had or that you've seen coaches have that you feel are destructive to both their well being?

As a person, but also I'm assuming that if those habits are destructive to them as a person, that's obviously impacting their coaching in a negative way.

So what are one or two of the habits that you've seen or that you personally had that you feel like are a negative for coaching?

Yeah, I think overworking for a sense of control and just non stop working.

Work in extra film and you know, so many clips on, on synergy or just when you're prepared enough.

And, and it's not, it's not that.

It's just you need to believe in yourself.

I think another one is something I work with a lot of coaches with is just the ability to set boundaries.

A lot of people think it's confrontational.

You know, like I gotta sit my team down and say, you can't text me between seven and nine.

It's, that's my me time, you know, that's not what boundaries is.

It's just deciding when you're gonna respond and being okay with not responding to a text message.

You know, a recruit or somebody on your team who texts you at 11:45 about a shooting machine or the ice, you know, you don't need to answer that.

You know, and honestly, I think the biggest thing was, and what coaches need to learn is, is to put themselves first.

Because as a coach, you wake up and you think about 30 other people before yourself and you're pouring into everybody else before you pour into yourself.

And that's something I had to, to realize as well.

And then I think just understanding the inner critic and the anxiety and where it's coming from and not to, to turn to it out of comfort and, and really create who you want to become and, and practice it.

Well said.

I mean, I think I can picture myself in all of those habits to some degree.

I can certainly think about coaches that I've worked with, that I've played for, that I've spoken to on the podcast that fit some of those criteria.

The overwork one, I think is one that every coach has to be really, really careful of.

I laugh all the time when I talk to coaches here in 2025 about watching film and their ability to see through synergy, or whether it's high school and looking at huddle, or you can, you can watch video forever and ever and ever and ever and it never stops.

Versus back 35 years ago, when I was a player, you had to go and pick up the VHS tape at the FedEx store.

So gas were driving around to trade trade video.

It was a Lot harder to watch a lot of tape or you were a lot.

You were just a lot less efficient watching tape than coaches are today.

But the danger is, okay, if I've watched four games of my opponent, I've probably gotten 98% of the things that I need, and I could spend another 20 hours and pick up that final 2%.

Does that final 2% make the difference and is it worth it, or am I in danger of overworking?

And then, depending upon what level of the game you're talking about, the danger of overworking is almost built into the rules of the game.

Like, I always think about now at the Division 1 level, how much access coaching staffs have to players in the summertime.

And almost every one of those guys is on campus all summer long with the same coaching staff that's coaching them all year.

And I know that if that had been the case when I was a player, that would have been really, really tough for me to spend 12 months out of the year hearing the same voices chirping at me over and over and over again.

I wanted to be able to get away, go work on my game, go play pickup, go do some things that were going to help me to become a better player.

It wasn't that I wasn't going to work at the game, but it was a break for both the coaching staff and the players.

And now, because those rules are in place, I think there are a lot of coaches at that level that I've talked to that are like, yeah, we gotta be really careful not to do too much.

But yet you can't really walk away from it, because if you do walk away from it and then you don't win, people are like, well, why didn't you do.

Because we, we could do all this, but is it really helping us?

And I think that's the point that you're getting at when it comes to talking about overworking.

Yeah, and, and, and when I work with my clients, we really just figure out why, you know, why are we overworking?

And a lot of the time is for control, you know?

You know, we want to somehow control, and we realize we can't.

No matter how much film you watch, you can't control if you're five remembers to show on a ball screen, you know?

You know, and, you know, so you really have no control.

And then another.

A lot of people that I work with work to prove themselves, and this started at a overwork, to prove and to prove they belong not so much for their head coach, but to themselves.

And that's that's the game that I was battling mentally like while I was coaching.

And like, you know, basketball is funny because you, you have actual opponents.

You know, you actually have people who are working and so you're working against actual people but then you're in your mind, you're, you're going against yourself as at the same time.

And so really teaching people how to win the game within and, and you know, be on their own team is huge.

So how did you take this coaching idea and actually turn it into a business?

What was the process of going from, hey, this is an interesting idea.

I think I could work with coaches, I think I could be helpful.

I think I could learn from this.

I think they can learn from me.

That's great.

That's an idea.

How do you take that from?

I'm going to walk away from coaching and do this and then turn it into an actual business.

What did that look like?

Yeah, it was a lot.

You know, it was.

I was like a first time head coach in my, in my business.

So I had to figure myself out, I had to figure out what I was good at in, in different areas of marketing.

But I reached out to a ton of ton of coaches to see, you know, do you see the importance of this?

And I got really good feedback.

I hired a coach to help me get all my messaging correcting and build my program to that would really help coaches and serve them the way I, I want to and really get my thoughts out on the paper.

And then I just reached out to everybody I know, started getting clients.

You know, it's just like when you're a trainer growing up or if you're a coach at a small level, do as well as you can where you're at and the rest will take care of itself, you know.

So I poured everything I had into my clients.

They started winning, people started asking them, you know, what's the key to success or and referrals started coming and.

But I think a thing that helped me the most is I was a coach.

I lived the life.

I know the fears.

I know what it's like to get on the bus after a loss, you know, and wherever you're getting meals that doesn't didn't start cooking yet.

You know, I know how hard hard that is.

I know what it's like to win.

I know what it's like to every year you have a decision to make whether you're going to move across the country and, and just uproot yourself.

You know, I know what it's like To.

To work for someone that's not easy to work for.

I know what it's like to have other assistants that aren't working as hard and you take all the slack or take up.

Take up everything.

I know what it's like to pour into kids and.

And then get cursed out and while you're reffing and try to not take it personal, you know, and so that.

That helps me a lot.

That gives me advantage over, you know, therapists.

You know, I tried to be.

I tried to go to therapy while I was coaching.

It was just hard because the first 45 minutes, you're explaining what a recruiting period is or why you have.

Why you have to pick up the phone for a recruit on a Friday night or.

Or a coach.

So coaches love strategies.

I think that's what helps me as well.

I.

I think like a coach.

And so all their problems or areas they want to grow, we really strategize and sit down and create a game plan to help them win, you know, and be better and enjoy sport.

You know.

What'S the process like for a coach that you're working with?

Yeah.

In other words, how are you doing it?

Mostly by phone.

Are you doing it in person or what.

What does it look.

What does the process look like?

Yeah, the process is people come to me with an issue or something they really want to improve on, and we create a roadmap on how to get there, and we do everything over the phone or zoom.

And for example, I had a softball coach who came to me in the middle of the season.

Her team was below 500, like 14 and 16, and she was like, I am panicking in games.

I get super tight at the end of games.

Like, I know I need to chill.

And we figured out how for her to do that.

You know, we figured out where this was coming from.

We figured out what she wanted.

I think that's really important is to.

To know what you want and.

And then work towards that.

You know, a lot of people think they want to win player of the year, to be coach of the year, and that will bring them confidence.

It's like, no, you got to work on confidence that whole time to.

To get confidence, you know, so figure out where they want to go and then create a roadmap to get there.

And then the process that I do is, is.

Is all through questions and asking deep questions and holding a space for them to process.

You know, we are all processors, internal or external, and giving them a.

A chance to hear their own self and just give them A space.

Coaches have nowhere to turn.

You know, give them a space to, to focus on themselves.

And so we do that.

We, we have about two sessions a month where we, how to go, you know, how, how was those techniques that we, we came up with, how was that plan?

Fill me in on the discussion you led your team through or you know, how, how was that player, after the player meeting, how are you doing?

Where, where do you need to improve on?

Tell me about your wins.

And then we just keep going.

And the great thing about this is that I, I meet them where they're at.

You know, I had a, I had a coach who got fired and really struggled.

Like, was it my fault?

What, like really embarrassed and in a bad place about it.

And we were working through that and then he got a, a call to be a head coach, you know, for an interview.

And then we had a process, like a bunch of fears like how do I make sure this never happens to me again?

And going into the interview and so really meeting people where they're at and just having a mini huddle.

You have a favorite question or two that in your first session with somebody that you asked that you help, do you feel like, helps gives you some general insights into the coaches.

Obviously you get into specifics as you get to know the person better and you can dive deeper into their psyche.

But just off the gate or off the, you know, off the jump, first, first, first session that you have with somebody, do you have a go to question or two that you feel like kind of gives you some insight into where they're coming from?

Yeah.

And this is something that I think all coaches can use and I would do, I would do with my, in individual meetings before season.

But at the end of the day, the best players coach themselves.

The best teams are.

People coach themselves.

So really ask them, they know themselves better than anybody and just ask, ask them right up, like right up front, what do you want?

You know, how can you sabotage that?

Like, how can you get in the way of that?

What is the biggest block?

And then if I notice you sabotaging your success, what do you want me to do?

Or how do you want me to handle that?

And so I get super clear on because people are really good at knowing what's getting in the way, you know, where their blocks are, you know, and, and what's getting in the way?

And people are very self aware of.

It's, it's a lack of confidence.

It's.

It comes from this thought process and then I get the answer from them.

If I notice this happening.

What do you want?

And you'll be shocked, you know, with that.

You know, I had a JV player this year.

I asked him what he wanted and, and how would he, how could he sabotage himself?

And he was like, you know, I could be lazy or, you know, he, he was actually very, a lot smarter than I thought he was.

And then I asked him, if I notice this, you know, how do you want me to solve it?

And he said, just be patient.

He's like, I'm, I'm trying, you know, but sometimes I, I, I, I don't do well with people snapping at me.

He's like, just be patient with me.

And that was coming from a 13 year old, you know, and so asking coaches that, it takes the pressure off of the coach and it's, it really creates a collaborative opportunity in relationship.

Do you feel like most coaches right out of the gate when they first talk to you?

Because they're coming to you, right?

It's, it, they're coming to you because they want help.

So do you find that most coaches right off the bat are honest and able to answer those questions truthfully?

As you said, being self aware?

I feel like sometimes when you think about like a survey or you think about something that's maybe less personal or something that you didn't bring that, that you're not actively seeking out, that you might not be as honest because that truth might not reflect as well on you, but because they're coming to you, I'm guessing that they probably come to the truth maybe much quicker than they would in some other circumstances because they're coming to you looking for help.

Is that kind of how you found it to work?

Yeah, I mean, they're usually, once people find out what I do, they're, they're pretty open to just let everything out.

Um, and I, I do, I think I do a good job of.

If we don't start off the gate like that, we learn about each other, you know, it, we, it's, it's just like coaching basketball.

You, you got to learn somebody before you can help them and, and, and make them comfortable and make them feel seen.

And so I, I don't have a problem with people opening up.

There are blind spots, but I just tell them what I notice and see what they think about it.

And a lot of the times just reflection in a mirror and the processing that goes on just helps them remove.

Those blind spots without divulging too much detail or names.

Yeah.

Can you give us an example of an issue that A coach or coaches have come to you with and what the process has looked like for you, working through that problem or that challenge with them, and then the action they took and then ultimately what was the outcome.

So kind of walk us through a challenge that a coach might be facing that you've dealt with before and kind of how you help the coach work through that and then what the results were for that coach.

Yeah, I mean, that softball coach that I was talking about was panicking in games, was really good in fall ball.

But as soon as it was, the lights were on.

Just.

Just struggled.

It just the huge weight on her shoulders, did not eat on game days, really just was only worried about what was wrong or what could go wrong.

And so we sh.

We moved the spotlight to where it needed to be, which was win the pitch and control what you can control, focus on what you need to focus on.

She started going to yoga every once a week.

She realized that she was working at a place of fear and was best when she was working at a place of joy and dancing on the third baseline, talking to players.

I think another thing that was hard for her was just the weight of being a coach.

And so together we figured out how to empower her players and her coaching staff.

And she ended up winning 30 games that year, making the NCAA tournament.

And then all 15 of her players who were able to return returned.

So nobody hit the portal.

And her big thing was I really want to create an environment of that people want to be a part of and are proud of.

And then this year, her team is 29 and one right now, and she's continuing to go to yoga.

She still has fears and anxiety and different things that come up, but she's not afraid of it.

She's composed late games.

She realizes that her team is a reflection of her.

I had another coach who, a young head coach, really afraid to set boundaries, did not want his players not to like him and did not enjoy breaks at all.

You know, struggled a lot over breaks, as most coaches do.

You know, you look forward to getting a break and when you finally get it, you feel guilty for not working.

And that's something that we had to really get over.

And so we set like little respond times throughout his break.

We left the phone at home.

We never used the phone in bed.

And we really just came to the mindset shift.

Like if you don't respond to.

To this player, it's okay.

Like they're not thinking about you that much, and it helped them.

And then he.

He's another coach who just felt like he felt lost his physical and mental health throughout the season.

And so we set goals to, to keep on track for both of those.

You know, he, he doesn't have time to work out throughout the day, but I mean like a set of time for a two hour weight room session, but he can, he can do 10 pushups every hour or set a challenge.

He likes challenges.

So he has a challenge of the day, whether it's 200 squats, air squats, and he can do it throughout the time.

So it's being very creative with what the problem is.

And then he had two all Americans who were clashing and one was a kid who earned everything he had, and another one was just a straight talent guy who could show up and they were clashing and he didn't know how to talk to them or, you know, he was afraid to.

Conflict of conflict.

And we ended up devising a plan of him sitting down with both of these guys, asking them what, what they want this year and what could get in the way.

And those two questions opened up a very powerful discussion.

It took so much weight off of his shoulder to manage people, and it shifted to empowering people.

And then there's just so much.

I deal with a lot of or work with a lot of coaches who are struggling with this portal and causing a lot of anxiety.

And leaving a coaches meeting after or a recruiting meeting is hard.

You know, you're walking back to your desk and it's like, I just put in so much work, but we're not going.

We haven't gone anywhere.

And so creating routines for post recruiting meetings and yeah, so it's, it's.

I know that's a lot.

I gave you a bunch of different ones, but those are great.

That's.

That's exactly what I was looking for.

Because I think it's important for coaches to be able to hear you say what it is that you're actually doing.

What are some of the issues that you're working through?

What are the actions that you're asking those coaches to take and then what are the outcomes that you're trying to get?

I have one for you.

Yeah.

This is in my own personal situation, so.

And I've been someone that over the course of my coaching career, I've been an assistant coach.

I was an assistant varsity basketball coach for a long time, and then I was the coach of my son's AAU teams, my daughter's AAU teams, where I was the head coach.

And then I've also been where I am now where I'm an assistant coach on my daughter's team and then I've also been a parent sitting in the stands.

And so what I have found is that as an assistant coach and as a parent, I'm invested in the outcome of the games.

I want my teams to win, I want my teams to be successful.

But if they're not successful on the scoreboard, I'm not talking about the other things, the, the process, the, the culture, all that.

I'm just talking about strictly on the scoreboard.

If things don't go well on the scoreboard and I'm an assistant coach or I'm a parent, I can put those things, I can put that loss aside after a game very, very, very quickly.

On the other hand, when I'm a head coach, I cannot put those games aside in any way, shape or form until the next game.

It doesn't matter if I was coaching my daughter's third grade basketball team, where anyone like yourself who has experience coaching second or third graders, you know that your decisions as a coach during a game have very little to do with the outcome of that game.

But yet I would find myself not able to put those losses aside.

And I'd be thinking about them at night while I'm trying to go to sleep.

I'd be thinking about them when I'm at work teaching school.

And I just couldn't, I couldn't put them aside as a head coach.

And so what advice would you have for me?

And again, I know this is a.

Yeah, a very small, not detail, but just, just give me some thoughts of why, why do I feel that way or what questions would you ask me to kind of elicit why, why I feel that way?

Yeah, I would, I would just be curious what is the difference between you being an assistant and you being a head coach?

So for me, I, I think that when I am the head coach, I feel that everything that goes on with the teams is reflective of me and who I am and sort of my self image of who I am.

As I'm going to go back to what we talked about a little as a, quote, basketball guy, right?

That if I'm coaching a team of third graders, my team of third graders should be able to beat Parent X because I have more experience.

And so if Parent X, who doesn't know anything about basketball, if his team is beating my team, I feel like that's a reflection on me, which is a blow to my ego.

And I'm guessing that that's why I feel that way as a Head coach.

Whereas an assistant coach.

Yeah, over here.

But, you know, it's not.

You know, that's not.

You know, yeah, I'm help.

I'm helping out, but it's not my.

It's not my team.

So I'm thinking that that's probably what it is.

And just by you asking that one question, I've probably come to a realization of something that I probably.

I probably knew that deep down.

But I guess what I see is that by you asking me a good question, you've gotten me to think about something or you've gotten me to bring something that was maybe deep in the recesses of my brain, and now I've been able to bring it out.

So that's just.

Again, that's why I see the value in what you do.

I could totally see it, because sometimes we just don't want to get to the truth ourselves.

We need someone to ask us those kinds of questions.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, it's.

I can't figure stuff out on myself by myself.

You know, I need to talk to somebody.

It's just.

That's what it is.

Like, I need to go to therapy.

I need to call one of my best friends.

I.

I have to write it out, get it out.

Or if it's just me, I go back and forth for too long.

I ruminate, I hold on.

But what you were going through, I think is very common.

I did it.

I was a college coach, and now I'm coaching freshman basketball.

I was like, I shouldn't lose ever.

You know, for me, it was.

I realized.

And I'm not saying you are, but I realized I was making it about myself.

And, you know, it's.

It is hard.

You want to win.

You know, I'm.

I'm.

And I'm in this profession to help people continue to win, you know, is.

This isn't just all relief.

It's.

It's competitive, too, you know, I think.

Right.

For sure.

A coach who.

Who doesn't take as much home and who's able to not take it personally and who's able to let it go, can be better for his team the next day.

And so that is a very valid thing.

I think the next question I would.

I would ask, you know, would just be kind of, what.

What do you want?

Instead of.

Of, you know, you.

You.

You sound, like, not embarrassed, but kind of like you're.

People are questioning.

Yeah.

I think embarrassed is probably the right word in a sense of probably not to the.

The full degree or meaning.

Yeah.

Of the word.

But I Think that there.

I think that there's definitely truth in that.

And so then when you ask me, well, what do, what do I want?

What I want is to feel proud of the process that I went through with my team.

Was I doing the right things on the practice floor?

Was I doing the right things in what I was talking to them about?

Was I being the best teacher of whatever it is that I was trying to teach on the practice floor?

And that's what I want to be reflective of me as a coach.

But yet when I'm out there as the head coach and I'm coaching a game and my team loses people who are sitting around watching the game, parents from both teams, people who may be just strolling through the gym, whatever they see, they don't see my process in practice.

They don't see my pregame talk.

They don't see my post game talk.

They don't see how much conversations that I'm having with my team.

Yeah, right, correct.

They only see the score.

And so then the score is the only thing that is reflective of my performance.

And I know that that is not true, but it is sometimes hard to remember that that's the case.

And so again, there's another good question that you asked me that got me to another truth of I want it to be about all the things that I'm trying to do, to be the best coach that I can possibly be.

But sometimes that doesn't end up being reflected on the scoreboard.

And the only thing that's public, that somebody who's not part of what I'm doing with my team, the only thing they can judge me on is that score, which is public.

And so that does, I think, create somewhat of a situation where, man, I'm doing all the right things.

And I know that I'm helping my team and I know I'm helping my players to get better as people and as players.

But other people outside that can't see that because we lost this game 52 to 26, because the other team had eight better third graders than what, you.

Know, would you say that you're worried about the score?

I would say yes.

I mean, I would say, I would say yes.

Because to me, the.

The score is something that the score is something that reflects upon, for me, the process.

I know my process is a good one.

I know I'm putting my best into what I'm trying to do.

But yet when the results don't come, sometimes that leads me to question, well, is my process right?

Maybe I should play that Zone that's going to allow me to win more games here at third grade, even though I know it's not the best for my players development in the long term.

So you have all these things.

Again, it's.

To me, it's almost like the, the what the public sees versus what everybody else sees.

And even though I know the one way is the right way, there's still a small part of you that feels like, yeah, but what would you tell.

A player who, who takes losses really hard and, and is embarrassed by losing or shameful?

I think what you would tell them or what I would say to them is you have to learn from the loss and then you have to put it behind you and take the lessons that you learned and move forward and try to improve as a result of that.

It's not a loss, it's an opportunity to learn.

And I think again, that's advice that I should take, right, as a coach, that I gotta learn from that and I gotta figure out what can I do?

Maybe I don't, maybe I can't do, maybe I don't do anything differently.

Maybe what I'm doing is 100% right and the other team is just more talented.

And that's just, that's, that's the way.

That's the way it is.

If you were able to do that, how would that help you in the future and help your team?

It would allow me to create a more positive environment because I would not find myself judging our success by the scoreboard.

I would find myself judging our success based on all the things that we've done in practice, all the things that we've talked about, all the things that are important to our program beyond just the scoreboard.

Are we good teammates?

Are we sharing the ball?

Do we play the game the right way?

Sometimes we can do everything right, and still you may not end up winning a game.

And then from a personal standpoint, right, if I can do that, then what I'm able to do is I'm able to take the advice that I just gave to a player two minutes ago, right?

I'm able to learn.

I'm able to put it behind me now I can go home and I can eat dinner and still have a smile on my face and not be laying awake in bed at 11:30 trying to figure out, well, what could I have done differently against the third grade press to try to try to win that, to try to win that game?

And so I think.

So my whole point in bringing that particular scenario up is that it's Something that, that was real for me and it's, it's not necessary right now.

I'm an assistant, so I'm not, I'm putting, I'm putting those, I'm putting those.

I'm putting those losses behind me.

No, you know, no, no prob.

No problem at all.

But that's something that I have definitely felt over the course of time that I've been involved in the game of basketball.

And so I can see just by this, whatever 10 minute conversation that we just had how you're helping somebody to work through those issues by asking them questions and getting them to think about what it is that they're doing and how they're processing it.

And sometimes just by articulating it and thinking about the question, you're able to come to that answer because.

Right.

You never gave me any answers.

Right.

You gave me the questions and caused me to reflect, which I think is, again, that's where somebody who's good at what they do is able to elicit that the answer, the answer is within me because I think I know what the truth is.

But I needed, I might need somebody to help me to bring that out.

Yeah.

And that's, and that's the most important thing because change comes from within.

You know, if, if it was just, you know, if it was just knowledge or just.

We would all be solved through social media.

You know, there's so many great quotes, there's so much information out there, but it, change has to come from within.

Noticing your blocks, understanding where you want to go and working towards that.

All right, we are coming up to an hour and a half here, Cooper, so I want to ask you one final two part question, part one, when you think about the next year or two, what do you see as being your biggest challenge?

And then number two, when you think about what you get to do day to day, what brings you the most joy?

So first, your biggest challenge.

Second, your biggest joy.

Biggest challenge.

I'm doing a lot at once.

I am moving at the end of this month.

First time buying a house.

Okay.

I am getting married next year.

I'm moving to a whole new chapter in my life as well as growing a business.

And all of that is, is a challenge.

You know, I'm going to be in a new location, I'm going to be in a new environment.

I'm a big systems or a routine guy.

So I've got to find my.

A new routine and what works for me in that area.

I got comfortable here.

And as soon as I did, it's time to leave.

So that's going to be a challenge.

And then, you know, continuing through all of that change and which is great, change is great.

But through all that just continue to be myself and continue to be true to who I want to become at the same time is a challenge.

And continuing to pour into a business where you, you don't see results right away is hard, but it's, it's all part of it.

And so just staying the course and staying true and, and programming who I want to become, I think is, is the challenge as far as the joy really helping the heroes.

You know, I like help the helpers.

You know, coaches have nowhere to turn and nothing brings me more joy than helping, helping somebody who has so much impact on so many other people.

And I love helping people grow, helping people realize how much the answers are within them and you know, show these heroes their superpowers and, and help them tap into their superpowers and then pour into more people and help help them.

So that's where I get most of my joy is, is, is serving my people and in helping.

All right, before we get out, Cooper, I want to give you a chance to share how people can connect with you.

Find out more about what you're doing, share, social media, email, website, whatever you feel comfortable with.

And then after you do that, I'll jump back in and wrap things up.

Cool.

You can find me on Twitter at Coach Coop, LinkedIn at Cooper Neiman.

My website is coopernieman.com you could email me at coach cooperneeman.com and anybody can reach out about anything.

I'm a helping hand and if I can't help you, I'll try to find someone who can.

Cannot thank you enough Cooper for taking the time out of your schedule tonight to join us.

Really appreciate it and to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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