[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. [00:00:15] As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales. I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is the [00:00:30] science of motherhood.

[00:00:30] Dr Renee White: Hello and welcome to episode 202. This is The Science of Motherhood, and I am your host, Dr. Renee White. In today's episode, we are discovering the incredible power of nurturing touch in those early weeks with [00:00:45] your baby. Have you ever wondered if there's something more you could be doing to connect with your bubby beyond feeding and changing nappies?

[00:00:54] Dr Renee White: Or maybe you've heard about baby massage, but dismissed it as just a [00:01:00] nice to have rather than something that could genuinely impact your child's development. Or perhaps you're feeling a little bit disconnected from your baby and desperately wanting to strengthen that bond, but don't really know where to start [00:01:15] now if you are looking for evidence-based ways to support your baby's development, while also protecting your own mental health.

[00:01:22] Dr Renee White: You are in the right place, mama. I'm joined today by Vicky O'Rourke, founder of Connect [00:01:30] Baby, and she's also an occupational therapist with over 14 years of experience in pediatrics. She's also a certified infant massage instructor and mum of three who brings both clinical expertise [00:01:45] and lived experience to her work with families.

[00:01:48] Dr Renee White: And in today's episode, Vicky explains the beautiful. Section between occupational therapy and infant massage and how her clinical background [00:02:00] completely transformed her approach to supporting new parents. You'll discover what the research actually says about the benefits of baby massage for infant development and the parent child bond and how nurturing [00:02:15] touch in those early months impacts your child's long-term relationship with their body, and definitely listen in when Vicky talks about what parents really need during those early postpartum weeks. As a mum of three herself, her insights are [00:02:30] absolute gold. Now. This episode is proudly supported by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doer village.

[00:02:37] Dr Renee White: And if you are pregnant, congratulations or if you've just had a new bubby, again, congrats. [00:02:45] We have some gorgeous doers across Australia ready to nurture and nourish you in. Melbourne, Geelong, Sydney, Newcastle, Brisbane, gold Coast, Hobart, and Perth. Feel free to reach out via the link in the show [00:03:00] notes.

[00:03:00] Dr Renee White: Alright, let's dive into today's episode. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Vicky from Connect Baby. How are you?

[00:03:10] Vicky O'Rourke: Thank you. It's so nice to be here. I am. Oh, I'm quite [00:03:15] tired. So if I'm not very coherent, you'll know why my little two had a party last night.

[00:03:20] Dr Renee White: Uh, look, you know what? It's the science of motherhood and I tell you what, there's lots of people who come on the podcast and they're like, I'm not even sure what my name is today.

[00:03:28] Dr Renee White: So that's okay [00:03:30] with us. Makes it very, very authentic. I think my previous guest had a couple of dogs in the background. My dog's gone upstairs, thank goodness. So. Yeah, that's lovely. This is, this is just, uh, this is just us, so don't, don't worry about it. Vicky, [00:03:45] I would love to kick off the podcast with you talking to us about your journey from an occupational therapist to founding Connect baby.

[00:03:58] Dr Renee White: I love always talking about [00:04:00] people's like passion and I guess where that's a huge pivot as well.

[00:04:05] Vicky O'Rourke: Huge,

[00:04:05] Dr Renee White: right?

[00:04:05] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah.

[00:04:06] Dr Renee White: Like. Talk us through, how did that happen? What sparked your interest to kind of go into infant massage and things like that?

[00:04:14] Vicky O'Rourke: Okay. [00:04:15] Yes. Well, as you said, I'm an OT by background and I have been practicing for, I think, 14 odd years, um, in pediatric disability and sensory disability in, in that sector.

[00:04:29] Vicky O'Rourke: And so, and I still, [00:04:30] I still am an OT. I'm on maternity leave with my youngest at the mument. But certainly something I'm very invested in and will always continue. So I trained in Ireland and then when I graduated, there was an embargo on health recruitment in Ireland at the time. So there were no jobs [00:04:45] in the health sector.

[00:04:45] Vicky O'Rourke: Mm-hmm. So everybody immigrated. So I came to Australia for what I. Presumed would be a year until the embargo lifted. That was my sort of plan at the time. But fast forward many years later and I'm back again. [00:05:00] So plan changed many times. Yes. But yeah, so I guess I. I love, I love all things occupational science, you know, human design, [00:05:15] what makes us tick as human beings.

[00:05:17] Vicky O'Rourke: And also yeah, you know, sort of all, um, infant development. Um, uh. Navigating that early stage of parenting where, you know, there's lots going on with babies, but also with parents [00:05:30] as they're adapting to their new role. Not just in the disability sector, but you know, across the board. Mm-hmm. Obviously there's other factors at play when there might be developmental or medical concerns, but yeah, I just, I love that early parenting support area [00:05:45] and over the years I've seen so much benefit.

[00:05:48] Vicky O'Rourke: You know, when, when we really. Give that space time and attention. Mm-hmm. The benefit in the long term for parents and babies is so long lasting [00:06:00] and so profound. So whether there's developmental or medical issues and you know, potentially grief and trauma and all these things going on at the start, or whether there isn't, it's just still so important.

[00:06:14] Dr Renee White: Hmm.

[00:06:14] Vicky O'Rourke: So [00:06:15] fast forward, um, I. I've been thinking, I had been thinking about infant massage and how it weaves with OT for years. Um, so my oldest, I'm a mum of three and my oldest is nine. So I did an infant massage, [00:06:30] uh, course a group with him when he was a baby. And I just loved it. I loved it from a parent's point of view, and it was a lovely way to meet other mums.

[00:06:38] Vicky O'Rourke: But also these light bulbs were going off around how this is such a beautiful synchrony with OT and [00:06:45] all of the physiology of touch that is such a huge part of the way I practice professionally. Mm-hmm. So that was always in my mind, but I was invested in many other things in the OT world at the time.

[00:06:57] Vicky O'Rourke: So it took me a few years [00:07:00] to then go and do infant massage training. So I did that when my middle child, while I was on maternity leave with my middle child, who's now two and a half. So yeah, I did a couple of courses and I guess through that extra [00:07:15] learning, there were bits that I. Picked and thought, yes, this aligns and there were things that I felt were a bit outdated or that perhaps I had a different slant on coming from an OT perspective.

[00:07:25] Vicky O'Rourke: So that's where Connect Baby was born. When I did the, the course, initially it was, it was [00:07:30] professional interest really. I didn't have a kind of an idea of what I was gonna do with it as such. I just thought it would, it would supplement my practice as an OT. But yeah, I, I, I just, yeah, it sort of became a bit of a snowball effect because.

[00:07:43] Vicky O'Rourke: There was so much [00:07:45] going on in my mind as I was doing all this sort of added professional learning, and it was all adding together in my mind. And yet that's where Connect Baby came out of. So I only launched this year, early this year. Mm-hmm. But it's been, it's been manifesting for a [00:08:00] while.

[00:08:00] Dr Renee White: It's it, it's so funny, like, you know, I, I talk to a lot of people and I, I always ask this question, you know, like, how did you get into this industry?

[00:08:09] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Or like, where did this passion come from? And there is this general theme of like, [00:08:15] I've always had this interest, but I, it, it's almost like. Like the timing just wasn't right.

[00:08:21] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah.

[00:08:21] Dr Renee White: But you know it's coming, right?

[00:08:23] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah.

[00:08:23] Dr Renee White: It's ruminating.

[00:08:24] Vicky O'Rourke: It's ruminating

[00:08:24] Dr Renee White: the entire time and you're just like, yep. It, it's on there. It's, it's on the to-do [00:08:30] list, but I just haven't got to that yet.

[00:08:32] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah.

[00:08:32] Dr Renee White: And like, you know, having three children is, you know, that's a big to-do list right's.

[00:08:38] Vicky O'Rourke: But also I think. Being back again in the depths of early postpartum with my second baby.

[00:08:44] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:08:44] Vicky O'Rourke: That was [00:08:45] the incentive because I felt there is a need for this and I'm in it. Mm-hmm. I'm living and breathing it and so yeah, the professional and the lived experience came together there, and it's probably not a great time to start a business, is it when you're, you know, [00:09:00] navigating early parenting yourself, but at the same time, it felt like. There's never a better time because it's, it's so fresh in my mind and I just mm-hmm.

[00:09:08] Vicky O'Rourke: I want to share this with other parents. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, my youngest is nearly 10 months old, so I'm [00:09:15] freshly navigating postpartum again. Yeah. And yeah, just, yeah, really in tune with that early parenting stage myself. But yeah, so that's where. That's where Connect Baby came from. So Connect Baby, everything that I do in Connect Baby professionally is rooted in lived [00:09:30] experience and clinical practice.

[00:09:31] Vicky O'Rourke: And the two, the two blend together. That's amazing and so

[00:09:36] Dr Renee White: can you explain to people like, I guess, uh, maybe some tangible examples of what that connection is like [00:09:45] how, how does your OT training like really enhance, like your approach to baby massage? Yeah, because I know we've spoken offline before about uh, baby massage is obviously, you know, it, it, it's a [00:10:00] course that you do very similar to like a doula course or something like that. But, you know, what are some of the, I think, you know, uh, like those connections and enhancements that you kind of can draw on from your OT experience?

[00:10:14] Vicky O'Rourke: [00:10:15] Yeah. Well, I think if we go back a bit. Infant massage, even though it's become a bit trendy in the last few years, I would say. Or baby massage. It's the same thing, interchanged, but it really, it's an ancient art that's been around for thousands of years and it's been practiced as an essential [00:10:30] part of caring for babies in many cultures, four thousands of years, and is still a huge part of the way that babies are cared for around the world.

[00:10:39] Vicky O'Rourke: So typically each family unit has their own variation of techniques and, and strokes that are [00:10:45] passed down through the women of the family, from grandmother to mother to baby. Yeah and, and I suppose there is, there is a huge wealth of knowledge and wisdom that comes that feeds infant massage techniques and [00:11:00] approaches that's coming from ancient cultures all around the world.

[00:11:04] Vicky O'Rourke: Some, you know, with some variation, I guess. So at Connect Baby, we blend the learnings from ancient wisdoms with modern parenting approaches, so, mm-hmm the techniques [00:11:15] that we teach are evidence-based and science backed, and they align with how we parent today. Because we, we talk about this, it's sort of a, it's a, it's a well discussed topic, you know, about how parenting has changed so much and we don't parent in the [00:11:30] village and all of those sort of things.

[00:11:32] Vicky O'Rourke: And so the way that we also care for our babies has changed rapidly in the last several hundred years. And so while there's really important learning, I think to have from how things [00:11:45] have been done for you know, so long. We also need to top up that knowledge with how we actually parent now. So the techniques that I, that I teach are informed by research areas, really the evidence-based behind touch, movement, [00:12:00] parent infant interaction, and how that supports development, regulation, and bonding.

[00:12:05] Vicky O'Rourke: Some of the different backgrounds that I draw on are occupational science. That's the science behind occupational therapy. So human design, what makes us tick as humans, child [00:12:15] development, sensory processing, holistic infant care and wellbeing. Neuroscience and early brain development are shared topic of interest, psychophysiology and regulation and public health and preventative care.[00:12:30]

[00:12:30] Vicky O'Rourke: And then some of the ancient practices that inform what we do alongside those science backed areas are a Ayurvedic principles, Indian massage, Swedish massage, some reflexology, and also our understanding of how energy [00:12:45] flows in the body and how touch can impact that. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of things feeding how we use touch therapeutically and how I teach techniques, some of which have a very robust research base and some of which [00:13:00] are based on sort of tacit knowledge that's been handed down and both are so valuable.

[00:13:05] Vicky O'Rourke: But yeah, it's the blend together that I feel is what. Is what I do, if that's a bit unique. It's interesting because when I went into this, there isn't a blueprint. You [00:13:15] know, really this is quite an emerging area in OT, so there aren't other. You know, there aren't a lot of other businesses to go okay, well that's a really good blueprint.

[00:13:25] Dr Renee White: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:13:26] Vicky O'Rourke: So it is quite new, even though none of what I've [00:13:30] just mentioned is new as such. Yes. But blending of it together is quite new, so it's both. Both exciting and Yeah, a bit daunting. I, I guess when you're starting a business that's,

[00:13:40] Dr Renee White: yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But I find. I [00:13:45] find some of the best things are the product of multidisciplinary kind of subjects that collide together.

[00:13:53] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And you go, Ooh, hold on a minute. This is like a beautiful synergy and some serious [00:14:00] magic is gonna happen. I mean, I say this all the time when I do like our check-in Tuesday episodes and I'm talking about a research paper. You know, when we are looking at a science paper or a nature paper or something like that, they are big impact journal articles.

[00:14:11] Dr Renee White: Mm. And you have effectively an, like a [00:14:15] cricket team or soccer team worth of people on the publication. Like beautiful things come from, you know, people with all different thoughts and mind processes. So I, I, I, I'm really keen to like, see this actually [00:14:30] flourish, which I think it is it's a really interesting concept to me.

[00:14:34] Dr Renee White: I would love for you to walk through, like for someone who maybe is listening to this episode and they're like, I've never heard of baby massage. Like, what are you actually doing? Because [00:14:45] I mean, we go to the massage therapist and sometimes if it's remedial, like I'm screaming sometimes if I've had a big workout at the gym.

[00:14:55] Dr Renee White: Um, what, what is, what, like what's the setup? Like, walk us [00:15:00] through like, I guess a session, uh, from a mum and maybe a baby's perspective of what that looks like.

[00:15:06] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah. Okay. So I think the first thing to note is that baby massage is all cue based. So we spend a lot of time in classes talking about. [00:15:15] How to respond, how to read your baby's cues, and how to respond to what their nonverbal communication is telling us.

[00:15:22] Vicky O'Rourke: So creating space to tune in and get to know how your baby responds, and that really helps with early bonding [00:15:30] and helping parents feel really confident in their parenting role. But that is the key foundation of infant massage. So it's not something that we do to the baby, it's something that we do with the baby.

[00:15:41] Vicky O'Rourke: So we are always reading their cues and then responding [00:15:45] with touch in, in response to what they have shown us. So it's a very symbiotic kind of relationship. Not like going to remedial massage with the sort of, you know, with knot in your muscles and getting them worked out.

[00:15:58] Dr Renee White: Put the music on lather me in oil [00:16:00] let's do this.

[00:16:00] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah, exactly. It's a very reciprocal relationship when you massage your baby. So that's the first thing that I teach in classes and, and online. Then we get into the nitty gritty of different techniques for different things. So I [00:16:15] teach, I teach a standard massage sequence, which is like, it's a full body massage.

[00:16:20] Vicky O'Rourke: So we go through techniques and strokes for all the different body parts. But what I spend a lot of time doing is talking about why. So, this technique is for [00:16:30] this, and this is why it's beneficial, so that by the end of the block, whether it's two weeks or four weeks, or if you're self-paced, learning online, hopefully the parents come away with a real understanding of how different touch works on the body.

[00:16:43] Vicky O'Rourke: Mm-hmm. And how they can pick and [00:16:45] choose different techniques to meet different needs. So sometimes we're using massage for relaxation, or for bonding, or for settling for sleep. You know, lots of robust evidence around how beneficial massage is for those kind of things. There's also lots of really [00:17:00] robust evidence around massage for different.

[00:17:03] Vicky O'Rourke: Discomforts, ailments, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. So whether that weight gain for premature babies, whether it's colic, wind, constipation, immunity, so we can use massage [00:17:15] therapeutically for other things as well as just bonding and relaxation. You know, and, and all touch, all touch that you give to your baby as a parent boosts their development in terms of, you know, their, their brain [00:17:30] development, their emotional development.

[00:17:32] Vicky O'Rourke: So there's all good things to be had from spending time touching your baby in any shape or form.

[00:17:38] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:39] Vicky O'Rourke: I, I really try to instill in all my classes, I'm like a broken record saying that it's not about the [00:17:45] perfect massage technique or about doing things by the book, but it's about Atuned connection.

[00:17:50] Vicky O'Rourke: That's where the magic happens. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:53] Dr Renee White: I did not know that. Like I, I think I, in my head, I'm so glad I asked that question, thinking in my head, like it was like, okay, we just [00:18:00] turn up and we do like a sequence and then, and then we're done. But no, I really, really like that. Okay. So it's cued based and I love the fact that there's research that's showing some amazing kind of results out of that, because [00:18:15] I think, you know.

[00:18:17] Dr Renee White: We've like supported families through Fill Your Cup. And even myself, to be honest with you, like I, I, I didn't have that see your child for the first time and instantly fall in love thing [00:18:30] like that just wasn't, that just wasn't a thing for me. And so I think perhaps, you know, a baby kind of massage course would have been really helpful because yeah, it's, it's, it is, it's kind of like you've been [00:18:45] introduced to this person that you have grown, but you have don't really know yet.

[00:18:49] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Um, and it's kind of like, oh hey, how you going? Like, let's be friends. Yeah. Like type of thing

[00:18:56] Vicky O'Rourke: on top of all the other things like your breath [00:19:00] recovery and you know, your. You're probably sleep deprived and there's all these hormones going on, and it's an awful lot to navigate.

[00:19:08] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah, so I think infant massage, baby massage is a lovely way for parents to slow down [00:19:15] to tune in and connect. I use the word connect all the time, and that's why I chose it for the name of Connect Baby, because that is essentially what it's all about, and all those other benefits grow from that connection.

[00:19:26] Vicky O'Rourke: So if we can give space for parents to [00:19:30] find that together with their baby, it's the foundation for, you know, huge benefits down the line for both of them. There's actually also really interesting evidence around infant massage and maternal mental health, and I say maternal because the [00:19:45] research hasn't really caught up with the diverse blends of families that we see today.

[00:19:49] Vicky O'Rourke: But, it doesn't just apply to mum. So I, I use the word mum a lot, but I'm talking about parents really. So when a parent massages their baby, the effect of that touch exchanging between [00:20:00] both of them triggers oxytocin, release the love hormone for both of them. Mm-hmm. And that plays a huge role in bonding and mood regulation.

[00:20:08] Vicky O'Rourke: And it has, infant massage has been shown across the board to be a protective factor for mothers experiencing [00:20:15] postnatal anxiety and depression. But beyond that, research also tells us that other significant caregivers who massage the baby, so it could be the non birthing parent, or it could be a close grandparent or a person who's very involved in the day-to-day of that baby's life, also [00:20:30] experiences lower cortisol levels and improved mood.

[00:20:33] Vicky O'Rourke: So there's, there's so much, there's so much benefit to using touch. Yes. And the best thing about it is it's free. All we need is our hands. Yeah. And our time. Yeah. And it could be five minutes or it could be 15 minutes. [00:20:45] It could be two minutes.

[00:20:45] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:20:46] Vicky O'Rourke: It doesn't have to be, you know, something that ha something else that has to get done in the day and a whole thing that we need to set up.

[00:20:52] Vicky O'Rourke: And you know, it literally is as simple and primal as touching your baby. Mm-hmm. It's incredible, incredible.

[00:20:58] Dr Renee White: I, I know here [00:21:00] in, in Hobart, in Tassie, I know that one of the mums that I was supporting, she actually used it as almost like a mother's group. Yeah. Like she loved it. Cause she was like, I turn up every week for like four to six [00:21:15] weeks and it's the same mums and we have a chat and we connect with our babies and like it's just beautiful. Like it is. Yeah. And to me that'd be like another layer of oxytocin and another layer of like chatting and normalizing experiences and maybe [00:21:30] like, oh, let's go get a coffee afterwards. Or, you know, that beautiful kind of again, another point of connection

[00:21:36] Vicky O'Rourke: Yes.

[00:21:36] Dr Renee White: For mums to have. Yes. Which is just amazing.

[00:21:38] Vicky O'Rourke: That's a huge focus of my classes too. So in the in-person classes, there is. We hold [00:21:45] space for real conversations every time, so we always stop in the middle and have a nourishing snack and a cup of tea and a chance to chat because the babies need a little break as well.

[00:21:55] Vicky O'Rourke: Usually they all want to feed and we just sort of call it when they, when [00:22:00] they've had their fill. Because, yeah, it's not just about instruction. It's about community and support, and that's just as important as the massage itself. Let's, if you want to say the modern village in action, but that the heart of infant massage is connection.

[00:22:13] Vicky O'Rourke: So when we prioritize [00:22:15] that, we support the whole family. It's not just about the baby thriving from the therapeutic benefits of the massage we're giving to them, but it's about parents feeling seen and supported as well. Yeah. And there is, I can tell you that every single class I run, you can [00:22:30] feel the oxytocin level rise in the room as the massage starts and parents and babies are really starting to tune into each other and they've got a beautiful flow going.

[00:22:40] Vicky O'Rourke: And then, you know, the chatting starts happening and it, every single time [00:22:45] it's, you know, coffee's after class or walks to the car, which turn into a longer pram walk afterwards, a walk in a chat, that kind of thing. Yeah. And we set up a WhatsApp group so that you know, they can keep in contact afterwards.

[00:22:57] Dr Renee White: Oh, beautiful.

[00:22:57] Vicky O'Rourke: Which is lovely or find the number of someone [00:23:00] that you really clicked with. Mm-hmm. And yeah, I can, the oxytocin boost is palpable. I feel it myself, being around all of that lovely. Yeah. Those lovely hormones are flowing. So.

[00:23:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah. That's so good.

[00:23:13] Vicky O'Rourke: I can't believe that it's work really. [00:23:15]

[00:23:15] Dr Renee White: I know, right? Yeah. It's kind of like doula work. Yeah. Like I turn up and I'm like, I get to cook your meals and hold your baby. It's like, and people like you do that for a job. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, it's awesome. It's the best job ever.

[00:23:27] Vicky O'Rourke: Truly.

[00:23:28] Dr Renee White: Vicky, so you've obviously mentioned [00:23:30] that you know, you're a mum of three yourself.

[00:23:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah. I'd love to know like how has being a mum influenced, I guess, your understanding of what parents really need during those early postpartum [00:23:45] weeks, apart from, you know, infant massage and things like that, like the OT stuff, like what are some other things that you would recommend for new parents along the way?

[00:23:57] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah, I mean. I [00:24:00] think for me this is, this is based on I, I think it's very difficult. I find it very difficult to unpick what, what's coming from a professional learning point of view and what's coming from parenting because I was an OT before I was a parent, so a lot of these, [00:24:15] yeah, these concepts were ingrained in me.

[00:24:18] Vicky O'Rourke: And I mean, what a great start as a parent, as a new parent to have some of that background, I will say.

[00:24:24] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:24:25] Vicky O'Rourke: But I think, um, supporting parents to, to build [00:24:30] confidence in the early weeks and months through hands-on practices like infant massage that nurture both the baby and the baby's development and the parents' mental health is such an important foundation.

[00:24:42] Vicky O'Rourke: Like I said before, for whatever life's twists [00:24:45] and turns. Maybe later down the line, if you've got that strong connection together, you're both bolstered. Um, and building that attunement with each other in the very beginning is the start of, of [00:25:00] navigating challenges that come up through life. So I think I just, I feel that there is so much noise in the parenting space and particularly in the younger years.

[00:25:12] Vicky O'Rourke: We, it's become so complicated from [00:25:15] all the things that you need for a newborn to, you know, how you respond to your toddler and all of this. There's just, it's so, it's such a busy space at the moment, and I think ultimately we could do with stepping back and just [00:25:30] reading our own baby, forgetting about what all the noise says online in the community.

[00:25:35] Vicky O'Rourke: You know what you're. What helpful or unhelpful advice is coming your way? Just stepping away from it all now and again or often and [00:25:45] tuning into your baby or your child and how they tick. How you tick and how that synergy feels, how the balance feels in your family. And I think you know, if you can start tuning into them on that level from when they're really [00:26:00] tiny, you've started the platform for how you're going to read them for their whole life.

[00:26:06] Vicky O'Rourke: So, yeah, I guess that might sound waffly, but I'm trying to get across that. It's not complicated. No, I, I, with complicated parenting quite a [00:26:15] lot,

[00:26:15] Dr Renee White: I, I, I think so. I, I totally agree. Like, I have this conversation with my daughter all the time, like, you know, and it's basic stuff. Like I'll kind of walk in, I'll be like, did you brush your teeth?

[00:26:27] Dr Renee White: And she'll just look at me. She goes, mm-hmm. [00:26:30] And I'm like, you didn't. She goes, I just said yes. And I was like, hun. I've known you for 8 years. Yeah. Like, I can read your face. How mum, how do you know? And I'm like, hun. Yeah, we are [00:26:45] hardwired. Like I've, uh, now, you know, she's nearly eight. I, I, I have these conversations with her and I'm like, you need to understand that as a mother, our brains are completely remodeled because we are very good at [00:27:00] facial recognition and reading things.

[00:27:04] Dr Renee White: With body language, even when you don't say the words. So I know when you are lying and telling me that you've brushed your teeth when you haven't. And she's like, oh. And [00:27:15] I'm like, okay, well one day when you have kids, if you want kids, you'll be able to have that superhero strength as well. So until then, please go brush your teeth.

[00:27:22] Dr Renee White: Yeah. But like that's just how it is. Right? Because we just, we just know our children.

[00:27:27] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah. But trying to, I guess if you were coming [00:27:30] at that as a brand new parent who maybe hasn't been around that many,

[00:27:34] Dr Renee White: oh God, yeah.

[00:27:34] Vicky O'Rourke: That many children. How do you start to read your baby? As you said, they arrive, they're quite new.

[00:27:40] Vicky O'Rourke: They, they may or may not be what you expected. They may not respond how you thought they might, you [00:27:45] know? Yeah. And I can honestly say hand on heart. All three of my baby's, children have are completely different. So, mm-hmm. What worked for one doesn't work for the for the next. And I found myself relearning everything with that baby.

[00:27:59] Vicky O'Rourke: [00:28:00] And I don't know why, because professionally and, and you know, from experience as a parent, I know this, but it took me by surprise each time just how different they were and how the way I responded to them. Needed to change and adapt every time. So literally [00:28:15] from the way that they wanted to be held to the way they like to feed, to the way that they like to fall asleep, you know, to the way that they, yes, have fun and you know where the tickles are, and just literally everything is completely different.

[00:28:28] Vicky O'Rourke: So no matter if [00:28:30] this is your first baby or your fifth baby, this process happens every time where you're tuning into your baby. And learning about how your cues or how you impact on their cues and that sort of synergy between the two of you. Yeah and then I guess it's [00:28:45] an interesting thing when you've got more than one child how that synergy is be, uh, between you as a parent and your children together.

[00:28:52] Vicky O'Rourke: Like the whole family dynamic. Yes. And your partner, if your partnered, how the energy flows between the whole family.

[00:28:59] Dr Renee White: [00:29:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:00] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah. Really, really interesting. Between siblings, all that.

[00:29:02] Dr Renee White: Good, good advice. And and also thank you for raising that as well because I do think, um, as a really basic, you know, example, the amount of times that [00:29:15] you know, mamas who are like, oh, like, you know, breastfeeding was a breeze the first time. Like everything will be kosher, you know, this second or third time. And then, you know, bubby arrives and they're like, why is this so hard? [00:29:30] Yeah. And it's like, because your body's changed and it's a new baby and they're two different pieces of the puzzle and they connect differently and that's okay.

[00:29:40] Dr Renee White: But it can be like really frustrating for them.

[00:29:43] Vicky O'Rourke: Shocking.

[00:29:43] Dr Renee White: And just be like, I nailed this [00:29:45] last time. How is this not happening again? Yeah. And that's when you have to ask for help right. And go, okay, hold on a minute. Like maybe I need some external, like assistance with that.

[00:29:55] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah, I see that End. For me as a [00:30:00] parent, infant massage, baby massage, I've used since my oldest, so, you know, I've, I've adapted and changed and I use massage in all different ways and touch in all different ways with each of my children and have done through their different stages.

[00:30:14] Vicky O'Rourke: But [00:30:15] I always say to parents that I'm working with that it's, it's my go-to rest and reset. And I think because as I said, it's free. All you need are your hands and yourself and your baby. You don't need any, any fancy things. If you want to add an oil or a lotion, you know, that's lovely, but you don't have to, [00:30:30] all you need is you and them.

[00:30:31] Vicky O'Rourke: Mm-hmm. So when things feel outta control or, you know, you're, you're in a sort of a spiral where you're not quite sure what's going on anymore and your baby's unsettled and there's all these, you know, all the, the stress is building, building, building, and you've tried all the things and nothing's [00:30:45] working.

[00:30:45] Vicky O'Rourke: You've that a goal, you know, you've nothing to lose. Yes. It's a great rest and reset when things are awry, whether that's because there's something going on like a, a pain or a teething or lack of sleep or whatever, or whether it's just that things are chaotic and the family and everybody [00:31:00] needs to just simmer down.

[00:31:01] Vicky O'Rourke: That is a great way to, to reset and start again or to sort of reset together and then have the clarity to think, okay, this is what we're gonna do, or this is what you need. So I think, yeah, if it's a wonderful tool [00:31:15] to have in your kit as a parent, and if you can learn it early on, it's going to stand to you for years and years to come.

[00:31:21] Dr Renee White: Do your kids still like, do, do they like to be, you know, massaged or touched? Yeah. Like, is that their, do they kind of [00:31:30] lean into that and I would, yeah. I don't know. I kind of, I kind of, as you were talking about that regulation kind of point, I would imagine that children who had infant massage early on, like, you know, if you [00:31:45] see them spiraling a little bit, they might just kind of wander over and be like mum, can you massage my back or my tummy, or whatever it is.

[00:31:52] Dr Renee White: Do you see that from a personal perspective,

[00:31:54] Vicky O'Rourke: yes. I think it's less explicit, I would say, but I think because they have [00:32:00] learned how touch feels and how, how responsive touch helps them feel better for whatever is going on. They'll seek that out as they get older, but maybe they don't.

[00:32:10] Vicky O'Rourke: I don't think my 9-year-old would come to me and say, can you give me a tummy massage? But he [00:32:15] will 100% seek, touch and contact or like deep pressure from a hug, that kind of thing. Yeah. So I think they probably don't have the language that we have around. Yeah, around massage techniques, but they know how their body [00:32:30] feels and they know what helps.

[00:32:31] Vicky O'Rourke: Mm-hmm. So they will seek that out. Mm-hmm. And that's, I mean, what a gift, really, to give children. Yeah. I guess, yeah. It changes a bit with older kids. He will love to lie there and throw his feet up on me when we're lying on the lounge and have a little foot [00:32:45] massage. He doesn't ask for it, but he just knows that I know what he needs.

[00:32:48] Dr Renee White: That's his cue for you.

[00:32:50] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah.

[00:32:50] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:32:50] Vicky O'Rourke: Or that he, when he needs to feel, you know, a little bit grounded, he's gonna come in for some deep pressure and that's going to look like the form of a, a deep cuddle or like [00:33:00] wrapping up in a blanket or, you know, those sort of things. And he knows without, we don't have to exchange words.

[00:33:05] Vicky O'Rourke: We both know what, what's going on there, you know. And yeah, I think when children are little, maybe it's a bit more like my daughter will throw herself on the ground and say, sash, [00:33:15] you know, she's two. So it looks different for her and, and she's less aware.

[00:33:21] Dr Renee White: I love that.

[00:33:22] Vicky O'Rourke: And tune with her body as my 9-year-old is, you know, it's all a, a maturity kind of, uh, thing comes with age.

[00:33:29] Dr Renee White: How [00:33:30] beautiful is that for children to be in tune with their own needs and wants? Because I feel like, you know, that again is a huge, uh, piece that lots of society is talking about. Mm-hmm. [00:33:45] And I think, you know, generations before we've had a lot of, you know. Your very minimal understanding of connecting with self.

[00:33:55] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah. Emotional connection and

[00:33:57] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And that's kind of cast aside and [00:34:00] things like that. So what a beautiful, I think opportunity for our children to be like, you know what, I'm not feeling, I'm not feeling my best. I need massage. Gimme a massage, mum. I love that. Yeah, so much.

[00:34:12] Vicky O'Rourke: And even just using the language around. [00:34:15] Around with your children. Not necessarily talking about massage techniques, but about like you look out a balance in your body. You know, what do you think you need? Let them, let them do a body scan. Find what they need, you know? [00:34:30]

[00:34:30] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:34:30] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah. That's, that's just going to be such a useful life tool for them as they get older to be able to self-reflect.

[00:34:36] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah. Do a bit of a body scan and then look for what they need.

[00:34:40] Dr Renee White: Yeah. My daughter's go-to is um, she has to have her feet. Yeah, [00:34:45] I do tell her I have a tiny torso. I've got long legs and tiny torso. And I did say to her, you know, when I was cooking you in my belly, the only issue I had was that my ribs felt like the burning gates of [00:35:00] hell.

[00:35:00] Dr Renee White: Because she was engaged from a very early stage. She was a long baby, so it's no surprise. But her feet would just like kick up into my ribs and it was like, it gives me the eeb gies just thinking about it now. I [00:35:15] think it's really interesting how when she needs comfort or like she's feeling a bit unsure about something, like she will, she will like pop her feet up, like, you know, we'll be sitting on the couch or she'll come in [00:35:30] for a snuggle in the bed and she'll curl up and she'll like put her feet like right on me, like really dig in.

[00:35:36] Dr Renee White: And I'm just like, I have got bruising now like from my child. I was like, okay, you are out of utero and you're still bruising me. Excellent. Um, [00:35:45] but it's funny how there's that, that like the consistent, like they need that connection with the same thing as you're saying, like, you know, heavy pressure and cuddles and things like that.

[00:35:54] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah. We all have different goodness, different sensory preferences and that's a whole area of OT in itself. [00:36:00] Sensory processing, how those senses interact with each other, how our brains make sense of sensory input around us, all of that. Mm-hmm. And massage is a lovely, a lovely blend with sensory processing I think.

[00:36:12] Vicky O'Rourke: So it's a really great way for us [00:36:15] to tangibly read what our babies need and then respond to using touch. But we're not just using touch either. You know, we're, we're using our voice, we're using all this other nonverbal communication, we're using movement. So [00:36:30] it's, it's not just about. Using certain strokes for certain things or like how we massage a leg, for example.

[00:36:37] Vicky O'Rourke: Yeah. It's about looking at how the whole body, your whole baby or your whole child is, is looking or reading right now in this [00:36:45] moment, and then how we can respond to their needs. So it's, yeah, it's very hard to put into words when I, you know, tell people about baby massage glasses. I just, yeah, it's, it's hard to articulate.

[00:36:57] Dr Renee White: It's very beautiful. I love, I love the sentiment and [00:37:00] obviously, you know, there's an amazing amount of positive outcomes from it. So yeah, I absolutely love it. Hey Vicky, we're gonna jump into our rapid fire cause we are right rapidly running out of time, so I knew this would be the case. [00:37:15] I'm like, you and I could chat forever about this.

[00:37:17] Dr Renee White: I find this a really fascinating topic as well. So, alright, so our first question in our rapid fire is, what is your top tip for mums?

[00:37:26] Vicky O'Rourke: Oh, my top tip for mums, [00:37:30] um, oh, I think, I hope this doesn't sound cliche, but you don't need all the stuff. Mm-hmm. Look after yourself first. If you are a new mum and you're thinking about how you're going to.

[00:37:43] Vicky O'Rourke: How you're going to be as a [00:37:45] parent, think about what you need to fill your cup. That very relevant that we're talking about. Yeah to fill your cup.

[00:37:50] Dr Renee White: I did not pay her for that everyone, just for the record, you're the second person in like two weeks that's like made, made a reference to like [00:38:00] preparing or get yourself a doula or something like that.

[00:38:01] Dr Renee White: I'm like, I swear to God I, there was no payment made for these types of things

[00:38:05] Vicky O'Rourke: and this is, this was unrehearsed completely. Um. I think think about what you need to fill your own cup first, and then you will be able to meet everybody's needs [00:38:15] in a much better way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So reduce stuff. Add support if you need it.

[00:38:21] Vicky O'Rourke: I, I don't just mean financially and from a material thing point of view, but the less clutter in our lives mentally and physically, the better I think. Yes.

[00:38:29] Dr Renee White: Yeah, [00:38:30] absolutely. Absolutely. What did you have, like a go-to resource or like a book or a workshop for like new mums? Like, and it can be. Like some people have [00:38:45] referenced like a poem or a quote or something, or maybe it was something that someone gave you and you were like, this really kind of was a game changer for me.

[00:38:53] Vicky O'Rourke: Hmm. Interesting. I don't know. I've read a lot of, i've read a lot of books. There was one [00:39:00] my middle, my middle child mm-hmm. Was I hand on heart, adore her, but she was a really challenging baby. Mm-hmm. And brought me to the, the edge of what I thought I could cope with in every possible way. [00:39:15] And yeah, really made me reevaluate everything about myself as a parent.

[00:39:20] Vicky O'Rourke: Mm-hmm. Probably because I was so tired. She just doesn't like to sleep with that little one. Yeah. But there was a book that I read that was really helpful called The Discontent of Little [00:39:30] Baby, and Yes, I loved, I loved how reassuring it was about you know, just, I guess all the things that aligned with how I normally view babies and baby infant behavior and things like that.

[00:39:44] Vicky O'Rourke: But when [00:39:45] you're in the fog of it, in the thick of things yourself, it's very difficult to pull yourself out and to see things for how often typical they are.

[00:39:53] Vicky O'Rourke: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I thought that was a really great resource as something really practical to go to. But

[00:39:58] Dr Renee White: yeah. [00:40:00] Perfect. Amazing. Thank you. Um, last question, which is a little bit left field and we borrow this one off Brene Brown. What do you keep on your bedside table?

[00:40:10] Vicky O'Rourke: Oh, my bedside table. Okay. Right. Well, I, [00:40:15] I like to set up for the night shift, so my youngest wakes a lot through the night still. So I still have the sort of, um, the planning in mind like you do with often with a newborn baby where you're setting up for the night before.

[00:40:26] Vicky O'Rourke: So my, my bedside table looks like carnage the [00:40:30] night, the morning after. Um, but the night before, I set up my AirPods, Kindle. Mm-hmm. Water. Yeah. Sometimes a hot drink if I know we're going be in on it in force, so I've got something ready to go to sip as we're waking [00:40:45] through the night. What else is there?

[00:40:46] Vicky O'Rourke: Moisturizer. I always like to like moisturize my hands. It's a bit of a sensory ritual for me. Yeah. lip balm. Yeah. Which is actually nipple balm repurposed. Yeah. What else is there? And a white noise machine with a nightlight. Okay. [00:41:00] That's my,

[00:41:01] Dr Renee White: do you sleep with white noise?

[00:41:02] Vicky O'Rourke: Yes, we do. I use, not the, not the standard white noise, but it's womb sounds I think.

[00:41:09] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Okay.

[00:41:09] Vicky O'Rourke: Yes. It's a bit of a watery white noise. Yeah.

[00:41:12] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah, I know the one. Yeah, [00:41:15] well versed on that one.

[00:41:16] Vicky O'Rourke: We have one in all, all the kids' rooms actually. And yeah, I actually love it as well. I find it really relaxing. Yeah. But it does help. So my, my younger two often bed share with me and my husband.

[00:41:29] Vicky O'Rourke: Mm-hmm. [00:41:30] So a bit of a party in our house, yeah. I find that

[00:41:33] Dr Renee White: you know what majority people do it. We just don't talk about it

[00:41:35] Vicky O'Rourke: a hundred percent. I love it actually. It's a great tool for everyone to get some good sleep. Yes. I find that if one is waking, it's also a good way to drown out any murmuring and noise that [00:41:45] might potentially wake the other.

[00:41:46] Vicky O'Rourke: So yeah, it's good from that point of view, but yeah, it's something from the newborn days early on that stuck.

[00:41:51] Dr Renee White: Perfect. No, my daughter still has like her little red light Yeah. Thing on every night. Yeah. Absolutely loves it. It's her [00:42:00] thing now. Yeah. I think we've graduated from White Noise to We now. We've subscribed to this new thing on, I think it's on, well it's on Spotify and the Apple Podcast, but Coco, Coco Moon, I think it's

[00:42:12] Vicky O'Rourke: Oh, yes.

[00:42:14] Dr Renee White: [00:42:15] Gorgeous older lady and she sounds like your nana and she reads you a story. Yeah, my daughter loves it. Like every night. Okay. What's on Cocoa Moon tonight?

[00:42:24] Vicky O'Rourke: Oh, that's lovely.

[00:42:24] Dr Renee White: And they recently, um. Started a new kind of series [00:42:30] on, it's got, uh, capybara. Oh. Which my daughter is absolutely obsessed with as an animal.

[00:42:37] Dr Renee White: And so she was like over the moon that capybara have ma now made a little appearance, um, on her favorite [00:42:45] podcast.

[00:42:45] Vicky O'Rourke: It's sort of a meditation, isn't it? It's, yeah.

[00:42:47] Dr Renee White: Yeah. She kind of, I mean, she starts, she's, it, it's her reading a story, but like, yeah. The, the tone and the intonation of the music starts to progressively get [00:43:00] slower and, you know, a bit more dreamy and whimsical as she moves on.

[00:43:04] Dr Renee White: And so it starts off like, as perhaps as maybe a little adventure and then. Just, you know, beautiful talking and like, you know, it sounds like your nana's reading it too, which is awesome. [00:43:15] So yeah, so, so good. Vicky, it's been so wonderful to have you on the podcast and thank you so much for enlightening me about infant massage.

[00:43:23] Dr Renee White: I've learned so much. Cause yeah, I just thought it was kind of like, yeah, okay, we turn up and we [00:43:30] massage our babies and then, you know, all is kosher. But I love the fact that there is that real intent on connection and, and cue readings. So, yeah, that's been really, really good to understand.

[00:43:42] Vicky O'Rourke: Thank you. It's been so lovely chatting as [00:43:45] always.

[00:43:45] Dr Renee White: My pleasure. My pleasure. Alright, and so where can we find you? You've already said that you can, you're doing online and also in person.

[00:43:54] Vicky O'Rourke: Yes. So I run in-person classes in Sydney in a few different locations, so you can check out [00:44:00] where there's a class near you if you're in Sydney on my website. Mm-hmm.

[00:44:03] Vicky O'Rourke: Which is connect baby.com au. Um, or over on Instagram you'll find me popping up quite a lot with tips and techniques and all things sort of early parenting, postpartum, [00:44:15] baby massage, a little bit of business, and behind the scenes of our own family life as well. And that's at Connect Baby underscore. Yeah,

[00:44:24] Dr Renee White: amazing.

[00:44:24] Vicky O'Rourke: I'll be there. I've got an online course as well that's on the website, so if you're not in Sydney and you're keen to learn, [00:44:30] you can learn online. So that's an on-demand self-paced course that covers all the basics that I teach in classes. So you can, um, log on there and that's lifetime access, so you can.

[00:44:40] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:44:40] Vicky O'Rourke: Keep using it as you, if things fade in your memory and you need to refresh, yeah, you can log back [00:44:45] into refresh or as you have more babies and grow your family, you can log back in anytime. Yeah,

[00:44:49] Dr Renee White: that's amazing. I love that. We're gonna have all of those links and everything in our show notes so people can just have a look on the episode show links. Thank you again. It's been absolutely amazing. So [00:45:00] good to have you.

[00:45:00] Vicky O'Rourke: Thank you.

[00:45:01] Dr Renee White: Alright everyone, until next week, we'll see you.

[00:45:05] Dr Renee White: If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to [00:45:15] listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well.

[00:45:20] Dr Renee White: You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. [00:45:30] Head to our website, I fill your cup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings, where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself, ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and [00:45:45] empowered, so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence.

[00:45:49] Dr Renee White: Until next time. Bye.