there's reasons why each of those nine types do what they do.
there's an inner core motivation.
There's I think we need to be aware of the fact that when we're in
conflict, that core part of us, that wound, that fear, that desire, that's
what usually is getting pressed on . That's what's being touched on,
and that's what we're responding to.
So knowing that each enneagram type has a different motivation, a
different fear, different desires.
Super helpful for navigating conflict because we're trying
to get to a different place.
Friends, welcome back to Mending Divides.
I'm Jer Swigart, and today we get to lean into a conversation about two
things that we bump up against every single day, conflict and our own wiring.
If you've been around here for a while, you know that we don't treat conflict
as something to be avoided, but as the very place where relationships are
tested, trust is built and peace is made.
And yet how we naturally show up in the heat of conflict often has as
much to do with our personalities as it does with the situation itself.
That's why I'm thrilled to be joined by my friend and Enneagram coach, Rob Yackley.
Together we're gonna take four journeys around the Enneagram types, not just
so that we can better understand ourselves, but so that we can learn
how to take good care of each other in the inevitability of conflict.
We will explore what the Enneagram is and how it sheds light on our default
responses to tension, what it looks like to bring our most integrated
selves when things get hard, the unique gifts and traps each type
brings to conflict, and even some practical ways to move from reactivity
to resourcefulness in the moment.
So whether You're Brand new to the Enneagram or you've been digging into
it for years, this conversation is gonna give us handles for showing up more
fully, more compassionately, and more peaceably in every corner of our lives.
Let's dive in.
Rob, where I'd love to start honestly, is with you personally as somebody
who has worked with leaders and and faith leaders, corporate leaders.
But one of the things that you do so well is you help leaders grow their
imagination for what it means to bring faith communities to life in
unique ways, in unique neighborhoods, in unique soils across the country.
And in your experience of working with leaders, myself included, I
know that you found this tool called the Enneagram to be really helpful.
So can you just us a little bit more about you and why you work
with leaders the way that you do?
And then when did the Enneagram start to show up in your life as a
tool that you found to be helpful?
Yeah, I've been, I've been working with communities for probably 40 years.
All different kinds of communities, intentional communities, missional
communities, missions teams, neighborhood communities work with some corporations
and use a ton of tools over these years to help people grow in their
self-awareness, their own personal development their awareness of the world,
what's going on around them, how to see the world, how to interact with the world.
And I have not found a tool more effective in 40 years than the Enneagram
and have used it for most of that time.
And I think what makes it so effective, what makes it so
helpful is it's a dynamic tool.
a lot of personality tools, and I've used a lot of them.
they're a bit static.
They show you what you're like, you know, you are an extrovert,
you are an introvert, you are, you know, sensory, you're, you
know, all those different tools.
And the Enneagram also tells you a bit who you are, but it
also tells you how you're doing.
are you growing?
are you evolving?
Are you stepping back?
Are you falling back?
Like, how are you doing?
How are you growing?
and then, it doesn't just tell you how you're doing.
It's not just about self-awareness, but it's also about other awareness.
I think that's something I really appreciate.
that's why I use it so much in team building and community building
is 'cause man, this will help you understand the people around you.
What motivates them, what animates them, what trips them up, how do you interact
with them, you know, when they're speaking, what are you hearing when
you're speaking, what are they hearing?
it's a great way to understand each other.
And I honestly, I, I don't know that a day goes by.
Coaching, leading communities, workshops, leading leaders that I'm not processing
through the filter of the Enneagram.
oh, okay, this probably, this person's probably a four and they're with
this bent and so super helpful tool.
I agree.
And I, you're the one who introduced me to it, and, you know, it was brand new to me.
I didn't know that it's an old tool.
It's something that's been around for a long time that seems to have been gaining
some momentum recently, I think, for the reasons that, that you just mentioned.
I mean, I've been pretty fluent in like the Myers-Briggs and like
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
I
Yep.
those tools.
I do too.
Yeah, because they highlight some realities and they help me
understand yeah, like myself and a
Yeah.
of the why and a little bit of the how, but it's the Enneagram for me
that really began to expose both the beauty and the shadow sides.
Yeah.
what you said, it forces us or maybe invites us to ask
the question, how am I doing?
Mm-hmm.
And how am I doing specifically in relationship to other people?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And so in, you know, now for about a decade, we've been using this
tool throughout Global Immersion.
And it's not just a leadership tool,
Yeah,
for all of us to sort out how to show up and how to be in relationship
with other, with other folk.
with other
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Of course, as it relates to this conversation because, you know,
mending divides is a conversation about conflict and our conviction
is that conflict is inevitable.
And so it suits us all to figure out how to navigate conflict well.
Leverage it as an opportunity for transformation.
One of the challenges that we've run into as an organization is
the idea that there really is no universal way to navigate conflict.
I think there are some universal tools that are really helpful and
like curiosity, as an example,
really
Yeah,
helpful tool, belly breathing, really helpful tool in terms
of navigating conflict.
But what we're finding is that different folk are oriented
toward conflict differently and
yeah,
and their impulse toward conflict while shaped by upbringing and culture is also
shaped by some kind of interior wiring.
That's for sure.
And so the deeper that we go into this work, the more I'm like, I wanna
have a conversation with you about the intersection of Enneagram and conflict.
bet there's some ways in which these nine types interact with it.
So Rob, for those of us who are newer to the Enneagram what is it and how
can it help us understand the ways we naturally show up in conflict?
it's a window into our personality.
It's a window into our soul.
It's a window into our motivation.
And I think one of the important things to understand about the Enneagram is
it gets typecast as a personality tool.
this is who you are and your, this is your collection of behaviors
and that defines who you are.
And yeah, there are nine types of personalities.
There's the type one, the reformer, the person who wants things to be
right and wants to fix the world.
There's the type two, the helper or the giver that just wants to help people and
come along people and improve their lives.
There's the three, the achiever, the performer that creates
and speaks and produces.
And then there's the four, the romantic, that's artistic and introspective
and cultivates an inner beauty.
There's the five, the investigator that's just taking information and
synthesizing is trying to understand the world and, and then there's the
six, the loyalist or the team player.
The person that just wants to be a part of something and belong
to something and contribute to something and hold things together.
There's the seven like me.
It's the adventurer, the explorer, the let's take new ground.
Let's explore, let's see what's out there.
Let's have fun.
let's bring some something to life.
There's the eight.
Like you you know, the challenger sometimes called the boss, the one
who like wants to take ground and wants to build something and wants
to make the world a better place.
And then there's the nine, the peacemaker or the reconciler.
the person that gets in that space between people and listens and mediates and
creates an atmosphere for reconciliation.
So that's really in a nutshell, those are the nine types.
But I think and again, there's healthy behaviors at each of those nine types.
There's unhealthy behaviors, there's growth, there's,
you know, what are we doing?
We're doing well, what do we look like when we're not doing well?
But I think really key, especially as it relates to conflict, I
think is understanding that it's, again, it's not just a personality
tool, it's a motivational tool.
there's reasons why each of those nine types do what they do.
there's an inner core motivation.
There's a desire that's propelling them to those kinds of behaviors.
and there's a corresponding fear.
there's kind of initial wound in our lives that created this fear and we're working
through that fear and we're trying to turn that fear into something healthy
and frame it around a virtuous desire.
But as it relates to conflict , I think we need to be aware of the fact that
when we're in conflict, that core part of us, that wound, that, that fear, that
desire, that's what usually is getting pressed on . That's what's being touched
on, and that's what we're responding to.
Hmm.
So knowing that each enneagram type has a different motivation, a
different fear, different desires.
Super helpful for navigating conflict because we're trying
to get to a different place.
Yeah.
I was just in a conversation yesterday with a couple of friends
about interpersonal conflict and wh when do I find myself triggered?
And when I find myself triggered, it's usually connected to, what feels
like an accusation toward inadequacy or failure, or I'm not good enough.
Mm-hmm.
you know, and rarely is a person saying that, but it's amazing to
me how that I have this big radar for being perceived as inadequate
Mm-hmm.
good enough.
And when that happens, I find myself triggered and ready
to move toward conflict,
Yeah.
Yeah,
of what you're talking about?
it is.
and the reality is so there is, there's conflict, right?
There's an issue out there.
There's this is good, this is bad, or this is trouble.
This needs to be leaned into, we need to find a way forward.
But when we're triggered, we're not really dealing with the conflict initially.
Right.
with that sense of inadequacy, or I'm not feeling loved, or I'm not seeing, or I
feel insecure, or this feels dangerous.
And so it's that emotional response below the conflict that
we're initially responding to.
Mm-hmm.
So real quick, just for those who are a little bit newer to the
Enneagram, here are like the core desires for each of those nine types.
So for that one, that reformer, that activist, I mean, they have
the desire deep down to be good.
they want to be good.
So their behavior, their response to conflict is like,
what would goodness look like?
'cause I want to be good and my fear is that I'm not good
. My fear is that I'm somehow corrupted, that I'm a little less
than, and maybe that'll be exposed.
and so they enter into conflict with I want to be good.
I want to fix this, and I don't want to be bad.
And so that's my, some of that deep motivation, entering the conflict
Yeah.
for the two, that helper giver type person that's, you know, generous and always
present and always lending a helping hand.
Well, they wanna be loved, you know what I mean?
They just, they wanna be unconditionally loved, not just loved for the things
they do for you, but love for who they are and they fear not being loved . So
they're gonna enter conflict with this with love, kind of on the surface.
Like, how does this affect me being loved me, you know, being
welcomed which is different than me being right in that first one.
It's like me being good.
It's like me being loved for the Enneagram three, that achiever, that
performer, well, they wanna be valued.
do you value me?
do you see my worth?
And not just I'm valued because I created something wonderful, or, you know, I spoke
well, or I preached an amazing sermon, but I'm valued for who I am as a person.
So they're gonna enter conflict with value as a kind of a
primary kinda umbrella dynamic.
Mm-hmm.
The Enneagram four, that romantic artistic type person, their deepest
desire is to be their truest self, to be unique, to be oneself.
You know, one out of 8 billion people that's, you know, seen as
that one out, one out 8 billion.
Which is why a lot of fours don't like the Enneagram.
'cause it puts them in a category.
They don't wanna be in a category.
Right.
And the worst thing for a four is like not having an identity,
just being one of the crowd.
And so they're gonna enter conflict with that era of uniqueness . Five
competency, the five that investigator, analyst type person, they wanna
make sure they've got all the information, that they're competent,
that they're capable of achieving.
And their worst fear is like not being capable , not having the information
they need to make a good decision and not being exposed in the midst of
Mm.
the interaction with another person.
The six that loyalist team player kind of person.
Their deep desire is to be secure, you know, to be with people,
not to be cut off, to be without support, which is their fear.
I, I'm alone, I'm cut off some from support.
They wanna be part of something that feels right, feels consistent with
who they are and that they belong.
Mm-hmm.
the seven, they, that adventurer explorer type person.
Well, they kind of wanna be happy.
I mean, I want, I wanna be happy.
I, I wanna enjoy life.
I want life to be full and rich and full of great experiences.
And my greatest fear is I don't want to get trapped in messiness
and ugliness and pain, and I don't wanna lose out on opportunities
because I feel denied or trapped.
For the eights that, that challenger boss, big personality person, like you, Jer,
one of the core motivations for an aid is actually to protect, to
protect the people they care about, to protect the things that God has
been building, to protect justice, to protect people, to protect nations.
And which is why you get involved in heroic, you know,
incredibly important tasks.
'cause you want to protect.
And your greatest fear is you don't wanna be controlled.
You don't want other people to rein you in, control you or manipulate you, right?
And then finally,
I hate being micromanaged.
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then that last person, that peacemaker that the reconciler
person, they want to be at peace.
Mm-hmm.
That's their deepest motivation.
I want to be at peace internally.
And externally.
I want, I wanna be at peace.
I want the world to be at peace.
And their greatest fear is being disconnected from everything,
just being alone, unseen, not part of not contributing.
So, so those are some of those fears and motivations that we
bring to the table in conflict.
And at a subconscious level, if not a conscious level, we're
processing in the midst of conflict.
And is it, we're being triggered, we're being challenged.
Yeah.
I'll pause there.
I feel like for those of us listening in now would be the
moment you just press pause
Yeah.
scroll back about
Yeah.
minutes and listen to that
Yeah.
And for those of you who are familiar with the Enneagram no
doubt deepens your understanding.
For those of us who are less familiar, that what just happened there might help
you understand something about yourself that you didn't know before and could
help you maybe even move in the direction of this tool that was remarkable.
Rob.
Now I'm,
Mm.
recognizing with nine different ways you know, generally speaking, nine
different ways motivations and fears.
That helps me understand why conflict is so complicated.
Mm-hmm.
Interpersonally.
You even started by saying, oftentimes when we're triggered, we're not dealing
with the actual conflict, we're actually dealing with the motivations and fears.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
How do we become more aware of our own motivation and fear?
And what value do you think that brings when we're dealing
with another human being,
Mm. Mm-hmm.
as conflict is beginning to emerge?
Yeah, great question.
Maybe one imagery that I find helpful for kind of understanding what's going
on at that deep level, especially in interaction with others, is to kind of
think of it like each of those nine types we're all on a journey and what comes
into play in conflict is when our journey gets like hijacked or blocked or denied,
and that's when it really gets messy.
But yeah, we're each on this journey and really that journey has two parts.
When we were born, we had this innate truth.
The assumption that we would be provided for.
We'd be cared for.
There'd be some human being out there, our mother initially, but
there would be some human being that would like, protect us and care for
us and feed us and change our diapers.
we would be safe, cared for and then that we would be unconditionally
loved.
Those are the two realities that every of the 8 billion people in the world, we
all were born with this expectation to be cared for and loved unconditionally.
Real early on in life, we learned the hard way that's
doesn't always work out that way.
In fact, it never works out that way.
It's like, actually my behavior changes people's response to me.
Mm-hmm.
I scream and throw fits and do things like people respond differently and it
doesn't feel like unconditional anymore.
And maybe I even feel a bit looked away from him or neglected.
So anyway, that, that dynamic, which is again, called that
original wound something happens in us that's like breaks.
It's huh, that sure thing of being loved and taken care of is not so sure.
Yeah.
So what I need to do is I need to put on my game face, I need to develop a
persona that makes sure I get that.
'cause I just learned at age three or four or whatever, that's not a sure
thing, but I can go back and get that.
So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna develop this personality that gets that
care and gets that unconditional love.
Is that bad?
It just is.
You know, it's, you know, it's just, it's life.
it's just, it's a dynamic.
So that's like sometimes called the first task of life is like developing the
personality that gets you what got lost.
What's amazing to me is like the most fundamental decisions that shape so
much of the rest of our lives and the way that we understand it happened
when we were like two and a half,
Yeah.
it,
we made these decisions
Yeah,
we even had the ability to think carefully about them.
yeah.
it's buried so deep.
And yeah, and I'm not a psychologist.
I won't dive deep into the wounds, but we did, we know, we all know that
something broke and now I'm trying to earn that thing that I thought was a given.
And so, so that's not bad.
It's just the first task of life, you know, figuring that out.
Where it gets bad is when it doesn't evolve and that kind, our strategy becomes
a caricature, it becomes an exaggeration.
And we can all think of like drawings or paintings of caricatures of people, right.
And they look obnoxious and kind of gross and out of proportion, and.
and that's what our life starts to look at.
if we just stick with this, I'm gonna create a personality
that gets me what I want.
Hmm.
Hmm,
Healthy people come to a point where they realize that's not gonna work.
I've become a caricature.
I've become embarrassing.
I've becoming something that's unhelpful for society, for my
family, for my spouse, for my kids.
And so they turn to the second task in life, which is becoming
the person they were created to be.
So, first task, becoming the person that'll get what was broken or lost.
Second task.
Now I'm gonna become who I am , who I'm really meant to be.
So that's what I call that journey home.
So that second part is okay, we're all on this journey home.
I'm trying to become this person.
And in the midst of conflict, sometimes we feel like, wow, that got blocked.
I'm trying to get home and you got in my way,
Hmm.
and that's what I'm responding to, so, yeah.
Oh, that's really insightful.
I love the first task, second task, you know?
And you know, I find that in my work I spend a lot of time with people who are
really making significant decisions,
Mm-hmm.
around that second task.
Yeah.
and I feel like we live in a moment in time where significant
leadership is being exercised by people who are still stuck achieving
Yeah.
which they didn't get when they were when they were young.
this journey home, this journey of evolving, doesn't happen accidentally.
Yeah.
And I wonder, you know, how has the Enneagram.
Yeah.
How has it informed your journey home?
I,
mm-hmm.
feel as I've even observed you and as you've invited me into this journey in
different ways, that the tool itself has actually created some guardrails
for me around who I am becoming
Mm-hmm.
understand what that journey looks like and how the Enneagram can help us.
Yeah.
Enneagram is sometimes called the Nine Faces of the Soul.
and I like that.
'cause it's kind of nine perspectives, or nine angles, or nine reflections
of what I believe is a divine image.
And we see humanity in its most glorious beauty and fullness.
When we see all nine faces of the soul.
In Enneagram language, they call those the virtues, the virtues that
each Enneagram type brings to the table, that brings to the world.
And when those nine virtues are all like shining and working in unison and
working together, it's like, wow, this is what it's supposed to look like.
This is what people are supposed to be like.
This is what humanity is supposed to look like.
So that becomes a really helpful idea.
Like for each type, it's like, so what is my virtue?
yeah.
what is the thing that I can bring into this world that like,
that shines that's remarkable.
That's healing, that's inspiring.
and they're not the same.
I mean, each of the nine types has a different virtue that they bringing
into the world in an interesting way.
it's a virtue that you only arrive at by working through your vice.
It's almost like our virtue is like after we work through our darkest stuff called
our vice, and we grow through that and we become healthy, integrated individuals,
Yeah.
then we see this virtue.
So
Oh, let's go.
Let's go.
do it, do
and virtues, then
should we do it?
Okay.
So, so for the Enneagram one and that reformer that let's make
the world a better place person.
Their virtue is serenity.
Huh?
Serenity.
Like they're at home now.
Their vice is anger because they see how broken things are.
They see the, a messed up world.
they get mad at people, understandably.
Mm-hmm.
they see what's happening in the Middle East.
They see what's happening in Ukraine.
They see what's happening in our own country and they, it makes them mad.
And they, and they can get caught.
they can get stuck.
We can get stuck in our vices.
Yeah.
But if we can acknowledge that, we can, that's really the first step.
I acknowledge my anger, I see my anger, and we work through our
anger, which is a whole nother conversation, all the growth processes.
But
Mm-hmm.
if I can work through my anger and get to the place where I am serene, where
I'm at peace in a world that's ugly
Yeah.
and the world sees wow, there's that reformer activist person who
can get pissed off really easy and get really worked up easy.
But right now, man, they are serene.
And that is, whew.
That's gorgeous, right?
that's,
contagious and deeply influential.
yeah, exactly.
And.
So then there's the two that, that helper, that giver, that generous,
always lending a helping hand.
Well, their vice is pride, which is like pride, huh?
They're just the helper.
they're the, you know, good teammate.
Well, it's pride because they know how much they help, you know, they know all
the good things they do, and that can, you know, on a bad day seep into their head.
and it can also lead them like to do things to be loved.
I'll help you because really, I wanna be loved.
I mean, that's my deep motivation we talked about earlier.
So they can get into a people pleasing mode, but when they break free of
that, I'm not doing this to please you.
I don't feel like I have to earn love.
I just, I feel loved.
I feel like I'm loved and I'm labeled the love back.
And they bring unconditional love.
that's their virtue.
Unconditional love.
no more earning, just.
I'm
Mm-hmm.
and I feel loved, and we see that it's inspiring.
I'm gonna keep going, but you can jump in at any time.
I'm loving this.
Yeah.
Okay.
Then there's the three, that performer you know, the person
who gets just a ton of stuff done.
The achiever, the type three the gift that they bring, the virtue that they
bring into the world's authenticity.
Mm-hmm.
Now, the dark side is deceit.
Mm-hmm.
can just imagine someone who's used to achieving, used to accomplishing
things, used to being upfront.
It's easy for them to kind of spin life and experiences in
a way that hides failure, that hides, you know, inadequacies.
And so everything is like shiny.
Mm-hmm.
And so that can lead to a sense of well, yeah, I'll make everything
look good even when it's not good.
When they can become honest with themselves, honest with the
world, and just stand before us with a sense of authenticity, the
world goes, that's attractive.
Yeah, that's fascinating because I, the, one of the ways I describe it three is
that they're experts at hiding in plain
Mm-hmm.
because they, because of the eloquence of spin
Yeah.
when they are authentic the influence that, that, it just invites the rest of us
Yeah.
to
Absolutely.
a
Mm.
their hair down and says, I can be imperfectly, incomplete, and in process,
Mm-hmm
of us can say, oh
hmm.
because so are we.
Yeah.
yeah.
just such a superpower.
Yeah.
That's a great insight too, Jer.
'cause that's true of all these virtues.
There's one, there's one type that kinda radiates it in this surprising grace way.
It almost has that wow, I did not expect that,
Hmm.
doesn't mean the rest of us can't be serene.
Doesn't mean the rest of us can't feel or experience unconditional love.
right.
means when that particular person exhibits it, it has that,
like, did not expect that and
it has a transcendent
yeah.
I
Yeah.
when a two does unconditional love,
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
does serenity, it impacts the entire community
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
For the four that artistic romantic person their vice is envy because they
want to be unique, they wanna be special, it's easy to look around all the other
unique special people around them and oh man, he's better at that than I am, and
she's more artistic than I am, and that's a way better website than my website.
Yeah.
they kind of.
That, that vintage wardrobe is better than
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
their candles are better than my candles and, yeah.
But when they work through that kind of comparing and envy and like
fighting to, you know, to be unique and they become their truest self.
We see in the four, like this transformation, this beauty evolving.
And we see the growth in the four.
we almost see the process of the growth in the four where other types we see
like the end product with the four.
We, we watch this transformation and it like that is inspiring.
Now I want to be transformed.
I, you know, I want to grow, I want to be more,
Got
more myself.
So their virtue is transformation.
Transformation.
Yeah.
They, I mean, they show us what the beauty of growth looks like.
Yeah.
The five that investigator.
Figure out the world kind of person.
The gift , the virtue they bring to the world is clarity.
They just, they help us see how things work.
They help us see how the universe works.
They're like people that put together the puzzles of life and they're
just here's how this piece goes and here's how this piece goes.
Now they can be a bit like, they can almost hoard that knowledge because
they want to, they wanna be competent.
They wanna be maybe the smartest person in the room.
And so they, their vice actually is avarice.
So this kind of, I'm gonna keep all the information to myself.
I'm going to, because I want to be the one to deliver the goods.
I wanna be the one that presents the paper.
I don't wanna be the one that does the research that gets the Nobel Prize so they
can kind of like hoard that information.
But when they, when they share it,
Hmm.
generous with
Yeah.
they've learned and they bring clarity to the world, it's like, wow.
Huh?
stuff.
Good stuff.
the, where are we at the six?
Yeah, that's, that team player, that loyalist that again, that
person who doesn't wanna be without support, that's, that, that fear
they, that they wanna belong.
They wanna be part of something.
the vice that the six struggles with is fear.
people might go away,
Mm-hmm.
lose community, I might lose my team, I might lose my church.
You know, I, it's that, something could be taken away.
Something could leave and I'll be alone.
Yeah.
But when they work through that, when they face that, they face those fears,
they face those yeah, those things that, that scare them and they rise above it.
They bring courage.
And so their virtue is courage.
So in a six, you know, a person that you maybe wouldn't expect
to be all that courageous, when they're courageous, the rest of us
feel like we can be courageous too.
they did it, I can do it.
The seven the adventurer explorer type person you know, they can
get in that pursuit of happiness.
They can kind of.
They could kind of be a little flighty or, you know, kinda bounce around
a little bit, shift directions.
Happiness becomes very much a product of the immediate
experience, the immediate moment.
Their vice is gluttony.
and really, not necessarily of food, but of, could be food,
Mm-hmm.
it just gluttony of experiences.
I just want, just wanna keep having experiences.
and since my happiness is contingent on the value or success of those
experiences, but when they realize that life is bigger than just experiences
and happiness is not so fleeting.
And they experience joy, that kind of settled sense of contentment and like
a deep sense of, I, I'm happy with me, I'm happy with the world, the way I am.
Not that it's perfect, but I have joy in this.
So I'm no longer running off to the next thing.
I'm okay right here.
and I think I, just to break in real quick, Rob, again, thinking about
the virtue sides of these as the unique superpowers of these people,
as I'm listening to you unfold, I'm thinking about a person who
identifies as a seven in this case, and I'm like, yeah, that's right.
When they are content,
Mm-hmm.
it, it's, it settles the RPMs of all of
Mm-hmm.
We are collectively, content.
Things might not be as they could be,
Yeah.
but we are collectively content
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Let's move on to the eights.
I happen to know one.
You're looking at one.
I love eights.
I've, my whole life I've been surrounded by eights.
Eights, you know, as you know, they kind of get a bad rep 'cause they are like the
boss and that challenger, and they're.
can really bulldoze, you
Bull.
Those people knock the
healthy
knock things down, you know, all those eight things.
But yeah, but they also get stuff done and they fight for things that really matter.
And the, the, the vice of the eight is lust.
Again, not necessarily sexual lust, but just the lust for more
control, the more power, lust for more ground, for more growth.
Just to,
Yeah.
I want more.
We could be better.
And I mean, you could see how that's a good thing.
Like we can be better, we can take more, we can grow.
Or it could be really just a example of a corrupted kind of lust.
Yeah.
The eights, I like that superpower.
I'm gonna use that language you used, use the superpower of the eight,
the virtue of an eight is innocence.
And again, it's when that strong, bold person that's kind of used to like shaking
things up and being like indomitable and almost being bigger than life.
when that eight says, you know, I'm human.
Mm-hmm.
I'm, I'm, I'm just a guy.
I'm just a woman doing my best
Yeah.
and I need to, you know, I need to lay my head down too.
And that vulnerability.
When the A gets, when the A gets vulnerable and we see that tender softer
side of the eight, we see that innocence inspires all of us to be more innocent,
to be more vulnerable, to be more real.
Yeah.
I resonate.
That feels similar to the three,
Mm-hmm.
There are a lot of similarities.
right 'cause an eight, like we can hide in plain sight as well
and we love to project strength.
But like that my learning curve over these years has been around
vulnerability and how humanizing that is and what a relief that is for others,
Mm-hmm.
that people don't need us to be perfect.
They want us to be human,
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And that's the transcendent impact right
Exactly.
Yep.
Yeah.
So good.
And then finally, the nine, that peacemaker, the mediator, the
reconciler their vice is sloth.
It doesn't, it's not, it doesn't mean they're lazy.
I mean, nines can be very productive and they can actually be very busy.
What it really means is they can be slothful with bringing their presence.
You know, they can be in the room and they can be participating.
They can be answering the questions and they, you know, whatever, they seem like
they're engaged, but they're not, their deepest self is not really engaged.
That they're more playing a role.
they're helping other people connect.
they're doing that.
some people describe the nine as the frame of a picture, you know, and where
the other people are, like the artwork.
Other people are the character and they're just the frame, and they
kind of disappear in the background.
They're there, but they're, nobody's looking at them, and they're not
really bringing them their full self, but when they do, they bring
their virtue, which is presence.
I'm here in the room.
I'm not just here for you.
I am here for you, but not just for you.
I'm here for me too.
I count,
Mm-hmm.
matter.
My opinions matter.
My needs matter as well.
Yeah.
So that presence, so serenity, unconditional love, authenticity,
transformation, clarity, courage, joy, innocence, and presence.
Nine faces of the soul.
When those nine virtues are shining, we shine.
yeah.
it makes me wanna build a friend group around, you know what I'm saying?
Just I just wanna build a friend group around the
Yeah.
and out how to get better together.
yeah.
sound, but it does, to your point.
and too, in a world where I think we, we wanna keep surrounding ourselves
with people who are just like us, how desperately we need one another,
Mm-hmm.
in in relationship.
And I think in the movement the mu movement toward justice in
particular, I and friends, as you're listening in, you can s there,
there are books and books and books.
all of this.
The beauty of this, Rob, is you've done the work over these
years to distill this for us.
And I want to get to conflict even a little bit more in
a more granular way here
Okay.
just listening to you right now, growing my competency around the
ones through nines in my life, that knowledge alone carries significant
impact as it relates to conflict.
Absolutely.
Because if I understand and fear of whether it's my partner or it's
somebody who's on my team, if I understand their motivation and their
fear, if I'm aware of their vice and believe with them in their virtue,
Mm-hmm.
then that radically transforms the way that I show up with that
Mm-hmm.
person.
Yeah.
and when we trip into conflict, because we will, because we're human.
If I have knowledge of motivation, fear, virtue, vice, I can use that knowledge.
and if I know the same things about myself, I can use this
knowledge to transcend the moment, to transform in the moment.
Yeah.
I can also see where the knowledge I can weaponize that
person's knowledge against them.
Yeah.
which is an act of violence to have the knowledge of the fear and the vice in
particular, and weaponize those things.
I suppose you could also do with the motivation and the virtue,
Yeah.
You know, I can see how that can accelerate conflict.
Mm-hmm.
the understanding itself is really helpful,
Mm-hmm.
as we're becoming conflict competent Everyday Peacemakers in this world.
Mm-hmm.
I do think though, and I'm gonna put you on on the spot a little bit.
I mean, you're, your command of this is to me.
Think with us if you can.
and if we can go through the types one more time as each type is moving
toward conflict or finds themself in conflict, what is a question what is a
tool that maybe each type could hold to would help them become resourceful in
the conflict rather than reactionary?
Mm-hmm.
I
Mm-hmm.
us each a little toehold into that.
And I think that would be really insightful for us.
Yeah.
The,
Wow.
We might all have the same question.
I mean, the que the question might be the same, but then the practice
associated with the question or the response to the question
probably is different for each type.
but I think the questions that we should all ask ourselves is, and I
alluded to this earlier, is one is like, where's this person trying to get?
they're trying to get home.
And it may look really un photogenic the way they're doing it.
Yeah,
And it may even be hurtful the way that they're doing it, but they're
actually trying to get home, which changes the calculus of the whole thing.
It's now, it's not just, I mean, conflict transformation is beautiful and powerful.
I know Jer and the Global Immersion team, you have incredible models for conflict
transformation and processes to do that.
But I think this Enneagram kind even helps reshape some of the motivation
for conflict transformation.
Transformation.
Can.
Yeah.
Go.
So, so, so now we can look at it in the light of I'm not
trying to just fix this issue.
I'm trying to help you get home.
yes.
Like my mission now is you know, I'm, I helped, I'm helping you get home.
I'm coaching this guy right now professional businessman, and he
is just, he wanted some coaching.
man, how do I. How do I relate better to my wife and understand her
better and my kids, and you know, they're teenagers and how do I just
Yeah.
communicate better with them?
and so as we're talking, it's well help them get home.
Hmm.
that, that's your role.
Help them find their way home.
And really,
could I even, I, what even occurs to me and what is I think equal,
equally helpful for me is the thought of, in this moment we're sojourners
sojourners together , toward home.
Yeah, yeah.
'cause I can even feel in myself if my job in the conflict is to help this person
journey, that invites me into a hierarchy, even or gives me a task that maybe what I
actually need is to recognize, hey, we're now in this together, journeying together
Yeah.
in this moment toward our collective home,
Yeah.
Yep.
base.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we probably don't have time to go down this path, but really
the gateway home is the virtue.
So that you're having that virtue in mind.
if I can, you know, if I can help the three become his or her most authentic
self, I'm helping that person get home.
oh, that's so good,
if I can help the five focus in and get clarity, I'm helping that five get home.
I'm not just helping them be a better person.
I'm helping them be their truest self and get home.
Mm-hmm.
when we operate out of a home base, we just get along better
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
the world is a better place.
So, so yeah.
I think for conflict dynamics, and I mean, I think that's one thing
I do is okay, this, just remember this person's trying to get home.
Where are they?
Where are they trying to get?
And how can I help them get there?
Mm-hmm.
maybe a related question is.
what's triggering me?
which is another way of saying, am I feeling blocked from getting home?
You know, so this Enneagram seven, right?
I want Joy is my home, my way home.
I'm trying to get the joy and, you know, maybe this conflict is oh man, I'm getting
thrown back in the mire in the mud of
Yeah.
ugliness and dysfunction.
I want out, well, I need the world to help me lift out of that and get
back on the pathway towards joy again.
That's a long path and it's, it takes us down the developmental path.
So we don't have time for in this call...
Rob, I am just struck right now by what I'm calling a fuse-less society.
Hmm.
And what I mean by that is we don't have long fuses or short fuses.
Too many of us don't have fuses anymore.
And the process that you just even invited us to consider is like a fuse
growing or a fuse regrowing process.
I, what I mean is when conflict approaches us, too, many of us
immediately lose our executive function and move into reptilian thinking,
Yeah.
we're fighting or we're flying away.
Mm-hmm.
The question or the consideration, what is their home?
or how is this moment blocking me from my journey home?
That feels like a fuse growing invitation.
Mm-hmm.
And so for we, we who are listening in, again, like I, I teach
regularly that the most important tool for Peacemaking or conflict
transformation is belly breathing.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I wonder how, and that's literally just the stimulating the
vagus nerve through big, huge breaths
Mm-hmm.
push our genes way out,
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And it's like the belly breathing itself gives us the
capacity to wonder those things.
Yeah.
and I'm just even wondering how like the process of belly breathing and
considering those two questions is enough to help us engage the conflict
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So that alone is enough for me to be
Yeah,
let me just practice that.
Yeah.
that's the big step.
that's the big
step.
that is.
gi now give us like, there are some actual practical tools that you would
recommend, but I think the universal
Mm-hmm.
Let's breathe deeper
Mm-hmm.
the bigger picture
Yeah.
to companion one another in this moment.
Yeah.
Perfect.
so here are just some smaller, more micro, tips, if you will, for each type.
So for the one in conflict or in a difficult situation.
and after you've kind of asked yourself that question, like,
where am I feeling triggered?
Where am I feeling blocked from getting home?
Where's this person trying to get to?
what's their virtue that I could help bring back into the reality?
And that takes time, that's not, you're not gonna have
an immediate answer to that.
You're gonna have to sit with that.
You might have to come back to that a week later.
You might have to come back, but two weeks later.
But then for the one I would tell the one in the space of
conflict is give yourself grace.
Hmm.
You know, the ones need to hear that.
Just give yourself grace.
'Cause they, the ones will beat themselves up faster and harder than
any other Enneagram type 'cause.
They want things to be right, and they know they're not totally right.
And so, in the midst of conflict, give yourself grace.
You're gonna feel some anger, you're gonna feel threatened,
you're gonna feel these things.
That's okay.
just feel it and don't beat yourself up with it.
For the twos I encourage 'em to prioritize authenticity.
In other words, be direct and ask people for what you need and for what you want.
'cause two often feel like I can't really be direct 'cause
that I need the more please.
I need to like, let you lead and I respond.
And so for the two is they gotta really consciously think about, okay, I need to
tell you what I need in the situation.
That's really good.
For the three.
Check in with your emotions.
The threes are really good at understanding everybody else's emotions.
They're very attuned to the emotions in the room where everybody's at.
They can respond to that really well, but they're, of all the Enneagram
types, they're typically the least attuned to their own feelings.
So I mean, they're the ones that gotta check in with your emotions.
Your emotions, not the emotions of the room, your emotions.
on.
Fours, I encourage fours to focus on the facts, not just the feelings.
So they'll instantly like.
Yeah.
Be consumed with the feelings in the space of conflict, the relationships,
the dynamics, and they're just, they're feeling everything on,
you know, on at a hyper level.
And so the fours need to be reminded, there, there are facts, there is like
data points, like focus on those and it's not, don't feel, but just don't
just feel, lean into the actual facts.
For fives, the Enneagram five, the investigator type,
pay attention to your body.
So fives classically live between the ear lobes.
I mean, fives are just here all the time.
And not attuned to the fact that Their body's breaking down that
their stress is, you know, taking over some portion of their body.
So for the five, they're like, man, how do I, how does my body actually feel?
what is a somatic result of this conflict on me?
For the Enneagram six, that loyalist trust yourself.
Trust yourself.
Sixes are great at trusting others.
They're great at trusting the room.
They're great at trusting leaders.
They're great teammates, but God is guiding them as well.
And we need to hear God's voice through them as well.
So trust yourself because you matter.
And how the Spirit is working through you.
we need that.
Yeah.
For the Enneagram seven I encourage the seven.
I encourage myself.
Sit with negative emotions.
we just, we want to blow by 'em.
Just boom.
Okay.
That was bad.
Yeah, that was that, that's that sucked.
Boom, I'm off.
And I don't learn.
I don't grow.
I don't even heal if I don't sit with it.
Now I say sit, I say that metaphorically sometimes the seven
actually needs to walk with negative emotions or run with negative
emotions or surfboard with negative.
I mean, they, something physical, something active, something this
movement, but consciously allow the negative emotions to be observed
Hmm.
and understood, confessed and
healed
Hmm.
rather than just blowing by them.
For the eight in the midst of conflict.
Encouragement would be to speak out vulnerability,
Hmm.
to, to not just be vulnerable, which is an amazing thing, but to
actually speak it out, which is like counterintuitive to everything at
eight is going on in their mind.
'cause they,
Mm-hmm.
aid, especially in the midst of conflict, to admit any
weakness, is like giving ground.
it's giving the enemy, a, a window in a doorway in.
But that's that upside down wisdom that the eight says, you know,
I feel this way in this moment.
And I, you know, and that's vulnerable, that's honest and real.
Let that change the dynamic, which
is gonna require the eight to trust God,
Mm-hmm.
to trust God with the outcome.
And not just to power through it and will it into being.
Yeah.
And then finally for the nine, that mediator person that can
maybe have that tendency to kind of fade into the background.
The encouragement for the nine is do the hard thing.
do the hard thing.
'Cause the nine, they want harmony.
they want everybody to be at peace.
And the temptation is let's make this as easy as possible.
As, as little, you know, we don't, let's not, yeah, let's not do the
hard thing, which might be being very honest or even confrontational.
Mm-hmm.
the nine needs to kind of break out of that safe space and do the hard thing.
Hmm.
So anyway, those are some little tips for each of the nine types.
I, this I'll be listening to this with my wife Jackie.
I'll be listening to this with my team.
You know, like this, I, I. You just took us around the horn
four times, in this conversation.
And I know that it's just the tip of the iceberg of this tool, but there are some
real contours that you just helped us with Rob and I'm so grateful that you have
found this tool that it has so shaped your life and that you've done the work for us
to be able to articulate it in this way to grow our collective conflict competency.
'cause we need it.
Hmm.
I think that one of the most hopeful alternative ways to show up on the
planet right now is centered and anchored in this case living into
virtue rather than vice when it
Mm-hmm.
Amen.
And I think too many have given up the hope that we can actually live that way.
Hmm.
And I think you just grew our hope a little bit that we
can, so I'm really grateful
Hmm.
Yeah, I, this maybe a final thought.
When I first got steeped into the Enneagram, and I've read more books
than I could count, but it was like 30 years ago and it was a long time back
when it was really kind of trendy.
I mean, it's still very popular,
Yeah.
deservedly so, it's powerful.
One of the trends though, I've seen Jer that I'm super encouraged by,
like in the early years, my early years, at least 30 years, you know,
it was really pretty self-focused.
It was like, I want to know me.
I, you know, which again good.
I, I'm not saying this is a bad thing.
I wanna understand me, I wanna understand my wiring, how I tick, but
it kind of didn't often go beyond that.
Now I see a real trend towards an otherness
Mm-hmm.
Good.
Yeah.
and I love that.
it's almost everybody that approaches me now.
It's can you help me with my company?
Can you help me with my team?
Can you help me with my elder board?
Can you can, it's it's othering.
It's I wanna understand the other person and what makes them tick
and how I can interact with them.
And so that's that.
As you started, that's that intersection of Enneagram and
conflict and team building and Yeah.
Yeah.
So any in any way right now for us to understand us and
how we relate to one another
Yeah,
and more constructively ah, let it happen.
yeah.
Amen.
Rob, you're you're a guide for my journey and now for so many
of us, we're super grateful.
I feel like there's another couple conversations coming all of
Yeah.
We were scratching the surface here.
we
Yeah.
the surface and I think in this time though, we got a really robust view how
understanding this tool and integrating this tool in our own lives and in
the lives of our teams and families
Hmm.
can help us transform conflict.
So thanks for this gift.
Wow.
Thanks.
soon.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
I've enjoyed it.
What a gift.
I hope you caught the steady thread of encouragement running
through this conversation.
Conflict doesn't have to divide us.
we understand ourselves and one another with honesty and compassion, conflict
truly becomes an opportunity for deeper connection, trust, and belonging.
Maybe today you heard something about your type or about someone
you love that gave you language for what happens when we get tense.
My encouragement is don't just file it away.
Try the practice Rob offered for your number the next time you feel your
shoulders tighten or your voice rise or your instinct to retreat, kick in.
Because here's the truth, goal isn't to avoid conflict.
It's to show up in conflict as our fullest, healthiest selves.
People who can name what's true, honor one another's humanity, and
imagine a way forward together.
Thanks for joining us for this episode of Mending Divides.
If you found it meaningful, share it with someone you love.
Subscribe wherever you listen and keep coming back as we continue to
learn how to be Everyday Peacemakers in a world divided by pain.
Until next time, keep showing up.
Stay curious and make peace right where you are.