Ann Evanston. Welcome to the art of imperfect adulting. I'm happy

you're here today. Are you ready for a fun chat?

I am so ready. Thank you, Amy, for having me. I'm super

excited about what we're going to talk about today. That's good. I'm

excited, too. I start all of my interviews by

asking my guests what part of the world they call home. So where is your

home these days? I live in

the San Francisco Bay area, just about 22 miles outside of

San Francisco. I've been here. I chased a boy to California. He's part of

the story today. And I've been here ever

since. About 25 years. Beautiful. I love

San Francisco. I have finally conceded to myself

that the weather in San Francisco proper, I

do not know how to pack for that and that I am probably better.

I just have to consider, I mean, I moved for the warmth and I just

have to remember it that that's that I don't even know how to pack for

the San Francisco cold and wet. I don't do well with it. I

love it. I love it. I love it. So the next I have one more

warmup question before we get to the topic of the day. We

say laughter is the best medicine. Share with me something

that you can count on to be smile

and joy in your life.

Oh, I, you know, that's almost a hard question because I

believe in happiness and joy and laughter in everything I do and

be. And if it's not happening, get rid of it fast.

Okay. That doesn't mean that there aren't hard things in life. That doesn't mean that

there aren't difficult challenges that I go through personally, professionally, in my

life, without a doubt. Yet day to day life should be filled

with joy and laughter. People who make you laugh and smile smile,

you know, especially people who remind you not to take yourself too seriously

and laugh at yourself. That's probably one of my favorite things every day.

All right. So just general laughter and not taking yourself too

seriously. I love that answer. I do. So the topic of the

day, we're going to talk about one of those serious things. We're going to talk

about a time when you were faced with a decision in your

marriage, in your relationship, and you shared with me the

start of this story, which is very, very compelling.

Going to share it. You shared that you got an email asking

you if this was your husband. So that

came in an email. You say your heart sank because he was

exploring meeting other women online. My first

question for you is how long Ago. Are

we talking about when was this happened? Oh,

yeah. You think I would know an exact date? I'm going

to say over 12 years ago. So quite a. Quite a long time.

Yeah, 12, 13 years ago. Yeah. And we'll come back to it in

present day. But I don't like to be the person who holding out big dramatic

things. Part of the story is that this relationship is still in existence. You

guys are still in a relationship. This is not. This is not a story.

There are plenty of those stories that I share, but this is not a story

of an end to the relationship. So before I go too

deep on the actual story of this, I want to just ask a

couple of questions to give some concept. Concept and some background so that we're all

talking about the same thing. How do. I'm looking

forward to this one because you gave us a little bit of a preview for

this. How did you meet your husband?

We met in a bar. I love it.

You know, when everybody was telling me, you need to go to church to find

a good man. We met in a bar in

Seattle. At the time he was going to grad school at University of Washington and

I was employed up in. In there. And

that very night we just had a connection right from the get go.

So it started right away. We were with each other every chance we could be.

He's originally here from the Bay Area. His mother

got a call. He was trying to get work up there because we were so

attached. But his mother's

cancer had come back and he felt like he needed to come home. So

he came back here to get work and I followed about six

months later. So that's how we originally met.

Very nice. So and how long had you guys been together?

When you don't have to be super precise, but roughly how long had you

been together when you got the email? When this happened in the relationship?

Yeah. So, you know, we did about even moving down here. We did

about eight years of dating. Right. And

all those kind of things happened before we got serious and moved in together.

So, you know, I met him in 1997, just to give you

a sense. And then it was about seven

years before this email came that we moved in

together and said, we're a couple, we're serious about each other.

We're in commitment. It wasn't marriage at

that point. We were big believers that commitment isn't a piece of paper.

Commitment is a choice. Yet we were

living together every day. Right. Grocery shopping, paying bills,

sharing bank accounts. All the things that a committed couple

would Do. Okay, so. And that. That was the

sort of. The next thing was just a little more information about the construct of

your family. Like, are you. Are you married? Do you have kids?

Pets, favorite plants? Like, what's. What's the house look like?

Yeah, as much or as little as. You want to tell. You don't have to.

Just to give us an idea, it is. He and I, when we met,

he had children from another relationship. Okay. So they're

very grown. Right. In terms of that. He also

had two German shepherds from the Seeing eye dog school up

here in the Bay Area, or rejects, as they would call them.

So very well trained, but just not good enough for the job, if you will.

Had some quirky habits. And we ended up importing two more German

shepherds. Those were our babies. Okay. In terms of choice of

children, the biggest thing probably interesting about our

home situation is we actually live in the home he grew up in.

Oh, interesting. Okay. Yes. So, you know, with

his mom passing, unfortunately, at a very young age

through probate and all of that, the probationary period and all of that, we

were gifted the house. It had a fire,

and we completely gutted the house. We completely remodeled it to make it our

own. And we have a huge yard. We

actually have a 9,000 square foot space that we have converted completely

to food. Wow. Yeah. And this is our

17th year in. We grow food all year, high density year

round. So we grow food in the winter, we grow food in the spring

and summer. We harvest it. We tell

people all the time, I haven't bought a hot sauce, a salsa, a barbecue

sauce, an enchilada sauce. You name a sauce. If I can make it from the

garden, we make it. We can it. We use that here. So that's

our big passion together, is growing the food and

sharing. Would you call that, like. Would you call

that like an urban homestead? Yeah, urban garden, urban homestead,

absolutely. Even our front yard. So it's fun to watch people walk by and

realize there's food growing in the front yard. That's amazing. One of the.

I have. I love plants, but very sadly,

am not very good at growing them. It's actually. It's a joke in my

house. I'm good at keeping people and pets alive,

thankfully. But I. And I, Every few years

I try it again and I buy plants and I lean into it and

have not yet cracked this nugget.

My mom is a longtime gardener, and

when I was first living on my own, she would come over and

resuscitate my, like, spider plants and aloe I mean, I

like the basics. And one day she said to me, she

said, you know, am. Some people just buy flowers

and when they die, they throw them out. I was

horribly insulted, but I currently have a, like a dead

lemon tree down, like outside that I trying to.

Trying to not be offended that I've yet again had this happen. It's not my

strength, but I do. I am very, very big fan of

it. But for the moment, I continue to buy my food

at the market. Okay. So. All right. So

you shared with me before we had this conversation

on the intake form that you feel like the choice you

made as a part of this situation, as a part of this

scenario in your relationship was unpopular and maybe not even

normal. Share with us a little bit more about how

you decided to do what you did and,

and, and what it was. So,

you know, when it happened. Of course I'm going to confront

it. There's nothing else you can do but confront it. I

guess there's other choices yet. To me, that was the choice to say

what's going on? Because when I got the email, it was pretty

easy to ask her a couple questions and then figure out where it was happening.

And then digging around could find that. Yeah, I

know my husband's handwriting or prose, how he

writes. Right. I. I can see his pictures in

there. I know that's him. So it was obvious.

There was no lie. There was nothing to lie about. It was very true that

it was happening. And to me, the only thing to do

was to confront it

and not confront it because I needed

him to tell me the truth. Confront it because

I wanted to know were we done or not?

Yeah, that's what I really wanted to know is

what? Is he done done? Is he gone? Is he

looking to leave, period? Right. Like he's over me. Because

in my mind, we had such a strong bond and such

great love. You know, if he's gone, I

need to know that because I gotta put my big girl pants on and figure

out what I'm gonna do. Yeah.

So that was really the reason for

approaching him right away that evening. I didn't wait,

I didn't hem. And ha. I didn't feel like I needed to talk to my

girlfriends to hear their opinions. I felt like I needed to

ask the question. And, and I said, you know,

so are you wanting to end it? And he said, I'm. I'm

one foot out the door. That was exactly his response to me. I'm

one foot out the door. And I said, well,

does that mean that you're willing to work on it to get it

back in the door, you know, do you want to fix

us for it to, you know, for you to want to

be here and. And be loyal and committed to

us again? And he paused for a

millisecond and said, yes, I want to do that. All

right. All right, very good. So we're going to talk more about that

in a second, but I just want to quickly talk directly to the people who

are listening and watching and invite them into the conversation. So when this

episode goes live, I encourage you to join us on

social media, where I will post a discussion question and you can interact with me

and other members of the community and maybe even Anne, if.

If she is in there interacting. So if you're not already following us on social

media, those links are in the show notes and all those places, but you can

join us in the conversation, which is super fun. And now

let's pick back up. Okay, so what I want to talk

now because I'm curious about it. I think that I

can imagine, and maybe other people can imagine what we would feel like

to sort of relive your experience of getting this email.

But one of the things I'm curious about is transitioning and

moving from that moment of discovery and then

into the work and the intentional work and decision

of what do we do next and how are we going to do that? So

share with us. You shared a little bit about that moment

when you got the email. You say your heart sank, but share with us

a little bit more about, like, how. How it felt to

experience that, because you. It's. It's a

surprise. You were not looking for this.

No, I. I thought we were good. Right.

And honestly, the. The word I now use in hindsight,

which is kind of, for me now,

it's a deadly word in a relationship with a partner.

The word I would use is that we were comfortable. Oh,

yeah? Yeah. And I think comfortable leads to

kind of assumptions in a romantic relationship. Like, you

know, if I wear the same sweatpants and

underwear and don't wash my hair for a week, we're comfortable with each other,

you know, and that might be an extreme example, but I think some women

can relate to that. We just. I don't know any women who

cannot relate to the occasional time in our life where we're like,

these are. These are the pants this week. Yeah.

Right. Or the. My body changing and

I'm a critic of myself all the time. Right. Or things that

just. He's going to be comfortable with because I'M dealing with

it and we're not talking about it. We're not having conversations about it.

We're not necessarily talking about how it's impacting both

of us and us together. We're just comfortable in making

assumptions about what that means. And so, you know, in

the. I was shocked, I thought we were good.

And he's saying we're not good, we're not good. I

mean that's ultimately what that one foot out the door was.

He was, he was looking for romance and love

again. And that wasn't happening in the comfort. I get

it. Well, there is, I mean, there's all kinds of

discussions as not something that I would call myself an expert in, but

there's all kinds of articles and headlines about, you

know, long relationships and the difference between that

beginning, like sort of romance phase and then what to

expect. And then there's many, many people who have all kinds of opinions and

thoughts and ideas about what a long relationship might look like. And it's really

different, it's really different from house to house, from culture to

culture, all of those things. But I think that one of the common things that

we. This is not just true of romantic relationships, I don't think. But like first

few days in a new job is very exciting and

unpredictable and when you stick around for a while, you're in the rout.

And I don't want comfort to feel like a routine. I

don't know that that's how I would describe it.

You know, even he would say, when we first

met, he would say to men, he goes to a barbershop every week. I say,

spends more hair money on his hair than I do in a month. But he

shakes all the guys hands, he says hello and you know, relationships with

a partner will come up and he says,

he says to them, you have to remember that you're still dating

somebody even if you're committed. And he says, I forgot

that. So not only did I, we both had our

own part in it. Please don't get it wrong. I'm not saying I was

to blame. I'm not saying he was to blame. I think we both had our

own part in what was happening, in keeping us in

this space. And he's, he admits he stopped

dating me. He stopped showing up to say,

I need her to know I choose her every day too. Which,

that cycle, that circle can be scary in a relationship,

whatever it is. And again, if you, to your point, no, no

judgment to me. If you are fine in a relationship where you're kind of

Separate, but hold a household together. And that works for you. Great.

Yeah. I find with a lot of women that I work with, though, in some

way, they. They still want a romantic partnership.

They still want to feel loved

with that person they chose to make that commitment to. Yeah.

Once upon a time, many, many years ago, I was in a wedding, so

bridesmaid in a wedding and young kids,

and definitely in a season of life that was very

busy. Not a lot of pre. Planning or

things in my relationship. And in the homily, the.

The pastor and during the wedding, the presentation he was

giving the homily, he. He said he's like, you know, never

forget what you did today. You know, you got up, you

got dressed, you thought about how you'd look for your bride and groom, you

put on your rings and you showed up with your best foot forward. And it

was one of those things. I remember looking across the room at. At my

husband and the kids, and he was looking back at me like, we both heard

it. I thought, okay, that was an unexpected message.

This is not what I was expecting to hear today. But it's always, we

need the reminders. It's always a helpful reminder for anybody.

And I think you can extend that for people who are not in romantic

relationships. I think you can extend it to friendships. It's like to not forget

how you show up and to pay attention to it.

So one of the things. So let's see if this is a good question.

There's always a chance that I'll ask a question that's maybe not great, but

one of the sort of discussion questions that I

have had come up over the years with my girlfriends and my friends. I would

put this in the context of late night in the dorm

room kind of thing, or maybe with girlfriends, I was trying to figure out where

it was. But one of those questions with both relationships and then also

sometimes with kids is that question of. It's like, hey, if I knew

something that was happening in your life, would you want me to

tell you? Like, as your friend? Like, is it. Would you want me to tell

you? Because there are people like, oh, no, I don't want to know. Don't tell

me. And this was a discussion. So that had me thinking, and

I was wondering, did you happen to know this

person that sent you this? And then did that impact your friendship with the person

who sent you the message? Yeah, so. Well, I.

I did a lot of speaking early in my career,

and I. Part of the way I got the word out is I

actually started a networking Group here in the Bay Area.

I had the largest nighttime one in the city, 200 women every month,

and the largest lunchtime one here in the East Bay, about

150 women a month. I'd lead those. I'd speak on

occasion, I'd invite speakers, but that would get me speaking gigs. Right. It would get

me out on platforms in terms of that. So I was

pretty well known, I would say, all the way down to San Diego. As a

matter of fact, somebody connected with me when I was. Did a keynote in 2012

back in San Diego. So these women knew me, they

followed me. Many of them had done work with me, that kind of thing. And

this was one of those women who fell into that circle

with her, choosing to tell me

again. I placed no judgment in her heart. She felt it was the right thing

to do. Yeah. You know, what do I

believe somewhere, though, in my heart, especially as I was

evolving as a woman and learning what intuition

really is and that. And now I

talk about accept versus understand. A lot of times our

intuition as women is already telling us something's off, something's

wrong, and we have to accept our intuition as the

truth versus understand. Which means now I need

proof. Yeah. Do I need proof if my gut's already telling me

probably not right. If I have a healthy self, love, I'm

going to be able to say, I'm going to trust my intuition and I'm going

to say to a friend, a partner, something's off

in our relationship. And I'm not asking you what

you know you're doing. I'm saying, do you feel it too?

And do we want to work on it so it doesn't feel off? Do we

want to improve it in terms of that? So

were we close to begin with? No. Okay.

In terms of that. But did it

end the relationship? No. Okay. Right. I was. I was just curious as it came

up, because it's. It's one of those things. My experience with this has

more to do with kids and step kids when, like, other adults will call and

be like, hey, by the way, I saw something. Do you want me to tell

you? Yeah. And that can be a tough call to make for the person who's

making the call for sure. Because, you know, you just never know how the other

person. Yeah. With grown people, is it really your business or not?

The debate. Yeah. And, you know, we. We

tend to. We sometimes put pressure on ourselves that we're going to be

judged based on how, you know, other people see our things. So it feels like

judgment of ourselves when it can also just be, hey, I saw this,

you know, here's a piece of information, do with it what you want. And that's

pretty what she said. You know, she said I was, I was online, right, looking

and I was just like, I think this is your husband. It wasn't. There was

no judgment, you know, there was no, he's a shitty human being and is cheating

on you. There was nothing, you know, bad about what she said. I, you know,

and for all she knew, again, to your point, we could be in an open

relationship. Well, that's the other thing. You don't know

out there, as you said, right. 100. Or,

or it could be like, you know, 100. Absolutely. You could

misunderstand the situation. People can have a very, I think of all

the hilarious situation where we misjudge what's happening. We think that

somebody's a girlfriend and they're a cousin or a best friend or whatever,

or a coworker. You just. And also

it's more public now probably than it has been at other times in at least

my lifetime, and more knowledgeable. But really we just

never know what's happening at other people's houses. You just never,

ever, ever know. And so. Absolutely. Okay,

so we touched on this at the beginning, but now we're going to come back

to it. Your story is that you decided

to stay together and be in the relationship

and notably, you guys were able to make that happen

together. So let's talk about. Because that's

not an assumption either. You could have gone to him and said, do you want

to do the workout? And he could have been like, no.

So let's talk about what the work was like.

What do you think? Looking back, it's been some time. What are some of the

things that you worked on and why do you think they made a difference?

Yeah. So at that point, we

both agreed to putting very clear

intention into the work and deciding

what that would look like as a couple and reach

agreement on it. So first thing was

forgiveness. Okay. Because.

And, and forgiveness comes with the caveat

that trust will be rebuilt. I think people want to reverse

that. I'm not going to trust you. Right. You got to prove your trust, then

I'll forgive you. And I, I believe in

forgiveness, which means I release right this

and you know, and that gives me the right

though still to ask questions if I need to with a non defensive

reaction, that kind of thing.

So the forgiveness, the apology, all of that right at the beginning. And then

we made decisions about what it looked like for us Therapy was not a

choice for us. Okay. Obvious for

him he had had a very negative experience

with therapy. Be fair enough with the baby.

Baby mama just kind of feeling like the therapist kind of sided with the woman.

Wasn't kind of equal play in therapy. So

fair enough. Right. Didn't want to do that. So. And you know, I have a

master's degree in psychology and do I've been doing this self love work for all

these years. So we kind of came up with our own thoughts. So first thing

we did is we created a weekly date night.

Okay. And the date night was very important

in the sense that we did go out in public and we would sit out

in public. Obviously, that's actually a

pretty big deal. You clearly defined what it meant to have a date

because. Yeah, yeah, very nice. Because. And that can change. That can

change during a relationship. Yeah. And it. And it. Yes. And not dating

can happen too. Right? Yeah. So. And

part of date night, the part of the reason for going out in public was

that our fear was if we were having the discussion

at home, the fight would start. And,

you know, because you feel safe to get emotional and to release,

and that's when you say things you don't want to say. And you go three

steps backwards right after you went five steps forward. And

there's hurt in what can come out when you're fighting. So

we knew if we were in public, we wouldn't fight with each

other. That's like. That's like breaking up with someone in a public place. It's like,

I'm gonna invite you out because you're not gonna make a scene. It's gonna be

polite. You know, it's gonna be polite. Right. And.

And the next thing that we added to that, though,

was intentionally so we would talk about stuff, we

added what we called a date night question. And

he had to come up with one, and I had to come up with one.

It could be any question you wanted to ask. It could be about the

situation. It could be how you feel about our communication. It

could be. Right. What's one thing you think you could do better in the.

Really? There was no holds barred on the question you

wanted to ask. But the rule was, is if you ask the question, you

also had to answer your own question. Oh, interesting. Okay.

All right, I can see it. So when you came up with that, just based

on your experience and what you guys wanted, that's actually, we got at

one point in my. That was a stepmom before I was a mom. So I

also had. Was Dealing with the step kids

and things. And at one point we were given an assignment similar

to that from a therapist that was like a scheduled time. And the

entire purpose of that was for me to ask questions and clear

the schedule. So it was a little bit different because it was like, Amy gets

to show up and ask anything. And the rule was you have to answer.

But I didn't have to answer my own questions. But it was. A lot of

this was real calendar type stuff. It's like, what is happening on Thursday? What

is happening on Saturday? So. Yeah, but I love that

you guys did that. That's a. That's a really, really strong

talking point. And to have to be willing to answer the

question yourself means you're going to think about it. Yeah,

yeah. So you have to be able to say, yeah, I really want

this question from him, or I want this question from Anne.

Am I willing to answer it right? Yes. Am

I willing to be open and vulnerable and give the answer honestly?

And there, there were some tough ones, trust me. There were times when

both of us left that date night feeling hurt,

you know, yet that vulnerability,

that realness made us closer again.

Right. Yeah. And I think the questions might have started out

safe. Then they got harder. Yeah.

Right. Because we felt safe. Then they got harder, and that's where that

discomfort came. But then they moved more into

the joy and the things we want to do with each other and the, the

recreation of the relationship and the, the reason we're staying.

And, you know, the bigger questions that really mattered

in rebuilding love with each other. And I don't think we didn't

love each other when that happened. We just forgot to share

it with each other more openly. Yeah. And

there are several points, I think in long relationships,

they don't have to be intimate relationships where there's a. There's a

choice to be made whether or not you're going to continue to focus on

the previous version of the relationship. You're just going to continue what was,

or if you're going to be intentional about creating something new. And so

there are some of those that we walk through pretty well.

It's a. It's one of the things that I teach people who are step parents

and who are coming into blended families, I say, if you can make the shift,

don't try and fit yourself into that family that existed before you got there, but

create the new one that includes you. But where I got

that sort of method was looking at things like retirement

and graduation where it's like, okay, well, this is over.

That's done. What are you going to do next? And

redefine giving yourself permission to intelligent. That intelligently,

intentionally design and talk about the next thing. But I. I

think if nobody tells you and gives you a framework for that or

suggests it, it's less likely you'll come up with it on your own. So. And

that's what it sounds like you guys were doing is like, what are we doing?

What do we want to do? Yeah. And it's really evolved in our

relationship. You know, I. As you were talking, one of those major

things women go through, which I'm way past it

now. I'm super menopausal woman. A

sign of success. It does. It ends. The

perimenopause end. We live on. It does. It does. And

yet I went. I was very excited

for menopause, honestly. I was like, get out. Flow out

of here. I want freedom in my sex life again. I don't want to

have to plan a vacation around it. You know, all these things,

oh, sorry, honey. New Year's isn't happening. You know, whatever those things

are. I was ready for that freedom, you know,

and watching all the crazy, fun TV shows of older people in their

70s, you know, getting a freak on. I was ready for that life. And

I'll tell you the day that shut off, everything sexually in my

body turned off. Oh, so you really went through, like a hormone

rock and roll hormone. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't want

to be touched. I didn't have any bit of

drive in me whatsoever. Yeah. And I think,

honestly, because we had done so much of this work together learning

how to communicate. Earl now calls it the practice. So Earl's my husband. We

don't keep that a secret. We're online. We don't hide. We.

We call it. He calls it now the practice, which is this opportunity

to really talk and listen to each other and ask questions and

figure out how do we be supportive of each other so that we can stay

on a path together, supporting each other as a couple versus

separate. And his ability to do

that helped us figure out what new

romance and sex looks like now than

it did when we met, when we were 28. Because it's not same. It's not

the same for him either. I'm going to tell you, ladies, men go through their

own too in that department. Okay? It's not just

us. I love it. I love it. I love that you guys call

it the Practice. It reminds me of the way

there's an author and speaker, Byron, Katie, and she calls her

stuff that the work. And I think those are good names for those

because it's like this. It's not a one time thing. This is not a,

this is not a quick switch. It's not a flip of the switch and

you should expect to keep at it.

And I think that really touches on, Amy, what you were

saying earlier when we were talking about comfort and routine, and I was like, I

don't know if I'd say routine yet. I think,

and I joke with women now. I'm like, Disney screwed us there. I was

going to bring happily ever after. Right. That's not how

it works. And it is work. Anybody that

wants to be in a committed, loving relationship,

it is the practice of getting up every day and

doing the work. Right. And that's

what we learned through that experience, is

we both have to put in the work. We both have to put

in that effort. So, yeah, so you said in your intake interview, this is one

of the things I was absolutely going to ask you because I was. So you

said Disney was wrong. And like wrong is in all caps with an

exclamation point. And I thought I probably understood what you were talking

about. But this is the, this is the way the princess

movies tend to end with the idea and then, you

know, ta da marriage, happily, sunset,

all the work is done. Glory, you know, and

rainbows and unicorns forever. And, you know, and anybody

who's been through the process, even if you have a

very, very happy marriage long, I've never met anybody

who's like, no, that's not, that's not how it goes. That's the party

is a party, Yay. And then the marriage begins.

Right. You may think we're this perfect couple, but you

don't know what we go through every day to be that couple. Yeah. You know

what I mean? I do think that's the, you know, like you said, we can't

know what goes on in anybody's home. Yet these couples that we often

admire, we don't realize how much work they

really are doing and have, I don't know

anybody that can be together. You know, we're, we're together almost

30 years to 20, 27,

almost 30 years of being with each other. I don't know anybody that can

get 30, 40, 50 years into a relationship and say, oh, no, we've never

had one fight. We've never had one distrust. We've

never had one moment where we're like, I'm out of here, it's over. I

think any couple that you really admire will Say, yeah, we work

on it. Yeah, I agree. I mean, there are people who will tell you

those things. There are people you will meet in your life. They will say,

oh, yeah, I've never raised a voice. I just don't

what their tools are for doing that or if they're actually, they have the same

standard of what would make them happy. So. Because

there's, you know, there is, there is one version of

not fighting in a relationship which is just like, if you just decide you're not

ever going to fight and you, you're like, I'm fine, just

never speaking up, then, you know, it does take two people to have a fight.

So if you just never engage. Yeah, but will you be happy that way?

That's right. If you keep your report. If you shut your voice down. Right. Yeah.

And Earl will tell people now, he's like, don't, don't get me wrong. We

have disagreements. We have times when we're not in sync.

We've. We don't fight a lot anymore, but we, there's times

when we're just out of sync. Right, right. Well,

I've never met anybody who agrees about

absolutely everything. There's going to be even a, like a tiny

bit of difference and conflict in any relationship, even if all

that is, is you have a different flavor of ice cream you like for dessert,

you know, and so there's, you know, we're not the same people

in our family. That's what makes living with other people not always

super easy. You know, in I,

we're. I'm getting very close to being an empty nester. But in my house,

I have a different goal for the thermostat than everybody else. I'm

related to every. Like, I, when they leave, I

change the thermostat, and that is. And they think I'm,

you know, like, that's the way. That's the way that it is. So you

guys put in the, you guys put in the practice. You built this

practice together of coming together, and you did that. You did.

You said. And I'll give you a chance to talk about this. You say that

you feel like this is the unconventional choice and not normal. I'd love to give

you a chance to talk a little bit more about where that

perception comes from it. And why. It's worth mentioning that it feels like

that's not, that's not the easy point.

Yeah. So here I am in my career. You

know, I, I have a master's degree in psychology.

I chose to go to a college where there was no grades and no exams.

So I had to actually do an internship and build a program

and I went to school up and. Sounds delightful.

Where did you, like, where did. No exams? No, I went to Antioch

University. Oh, is Antioch still around? I believe

so. I still get stuff in the mail, so that makes me believe, you know,

I still get the fundraising and you. Know, the, I think I know

somebody, I think I know somebody else that went there. Okay. And,

and I thought, I thought that maybe a decade or so ago they had like

a fundraising challenge, but I, I could be mixing it up with something. Well, they

had satellites, so they might have closed some of their satellites. Oh, maybe they're originally

in the Midwest and they had a satellite, I believe in la, but I went

to the satellite in Seattle. So maybe that's what happened is they took

some of those down. But yeah, so that's where my

work on self esteem and self love for women started.

And so here I am, this woman who people come to

my weekend retreats and my masterminds in

this work with me and do one on one work with me.

And my experience has been that women, when they

have what they feel is a betrayal, that the MO

is you leave a bad man. Once a cheater, always a cheater.

Fear, that is the thing some people say. Yes, yes, that is a thing that

people will say. And I,

so I think I built some fear around it in making the choice

to say. And you know, the universe will provide you proof

if you keep looking for it. And I decided at one of

my retreats with VIPs who

honestly I would say had been working with me for years. I knew their families,

they knew mine. All of this stuff happened and I decided to tell this

story. Okay. And one woman actually quit working with me

and ended the friendship. And I was, you

know, hurt by that and felt that

shame for staying and was told later through the

gossip mill that that's why she felt that I wasn't a good role model or

example to women. And I, I've been

able to take that full circle of I, I,

I want women to be in a place where they will never feel

judged on the choice that they make. I think that's a good goal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so

choosing to stay and make it work, choosing to leave. Right.

Whatever that choice is. Choosing to marry someone who already had kids

with somebody else, any of those things. Yeah. We weren't from generation where that wasn't

cool either. Right, right, right. As if it was a new thing

in this generation. As if you haven't been step parents since, you know, the beginning

of relationship. Yeah. Choosing not to get married and. Right.

Choosing not to get married as if that's some sort of non. Or

choosing not to have kids, which is like almost half of the world and yet

we treat them like they've done some sort of crazy thing. Yeah.

You're going to regret it. I used to. You're going to regret it. And

I said no. I don't even have a tic, let alone a talk. I think

it's probably a good idea. I don't have kids. Okay. So, you

know, I think I'm okay. I'm okay with that one. So. Yeah, that,

that it's the uncommon story. But as I've.

As I. I think. And that's why when, you know,

I reached. I wanted Earl's permission, of course to tell this story because

it's his too. And chose with you to do that.

I realized that if some woman is feeling that

way, shamed because she's staying, I. That it's okay.

You don't have to be feel shame because of that.

You made the choice that was right for you. That was right for you.

And one of the things I say just about my stepparent journey, which is very

similar, is that, that I'll add on to it is that

I don't minimize the pressure that you feel from what you think

people are going to. Because people. It's the reality of the human experience

in my. People will make assumptions about you. Some of them will be right, some

of them are wrong. And some people will make the judgment to tell

you what they think about the choices they think you've made, even if they're. Even

if they're wrong. And you will have to deal with it.

So the fear is justified. Right.

That's a real experience. Some people will do that. But I think it's so important

to say that and to bring it out. The more that

we talk about it and the more stories we share, the more

people can hear it and know that they're not alone or that it

exists. It's one of the really, really, really great things

about being alive in 2025 is that really

small marginalized groups and really just

special. If you are a collector of purple

playing cards, you can probably find a group somewhere to identify. And

that's really nice. But it comes with all the other stuff that modern time comes

with too. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Secrets are harder to keep. You know, there's sure.

As the old saying used to be, only two can keep a secret. If one

of them is dead. Oh, right. Yeah, we haven't. But

now, you know, now it's what happens in Vegas stays in

Vegas and on Facebook and on. Okay, there we go.

That's been a very good update. I love that update because it is a

very real challenge. Now, I was talking. I was talking to somebody earlier today, and

I was saying, you know, you can't even walk down the street,

you know, without somebody's door cam filming you, whether you know it

or want it or not. All right, so in the. In a minute,

we're going to do the final fun questions, but I want you to give.

I want to give you a chance to. You've talked a lot about the work

that you do with clients, but to directly tell people what you do, how you

want people to reach out and find you after this interview

if they want to you. I love that. So I love people reaching out and

finding me. I mentioned already, I'm not much of a secret in my life.

I'm pretty open book. I. In terms of social, my

number one place and I just chose to be at the place that I like

to be is Facebook. Okay. And my name is the

fastest way to find me, whether it's a group or just

following me from my profile. So I'm perfectly okay

that I'm okay with people private messaging me.

I know there's the great debate about that. Yet sometimes you need a

private conversation with somebody. So I have no problem with that whatsoever.

And Evanston, my name as well.com will get you to my website.

Okay. I am a. Well, a

master's degree in psychology, and I'm a certified

master performance coach, which is really about how are you getting

past your own gunk to live the life you want? Find your voice, your

purpose, your passion. I run Self Love

Evolution retreats for women, which is my biggest passion.

So easy to find and look up and

happy to talk with anybody. All right, fantastic. And you actually, you have a book,

the Self Love Evolution for Women, which is the same title as the retreats.

I think I did. So I've been running the retreat 10 years, and I've had

people for a long time encouraging the book.

And I always say, I'm not a writer, I'm not an author. Well, technology

has made that a lot easier these days. Again, if you move into technology,

even this year, you can transcribe why we're talking. Right. And get a

transcription anymore. So I turned the

basically retreat and these levels of the Self Love evolution

that are in there into a book. And a journal.

And there's five level layers to self love that I talk about with my

work from Antioch. And the expert gives you those. Those excerpt

gives you those five layers. Free gift to anybody who wants to get it on

your page there, just to kind of get you started thinking about that

and where you're at in your evolution and the things

that you want to work on. Yes. Very good. So I will recap the special

offer which you mentioned so that everybody's got it. It's an excerpt of the book,

and it gives you the opportunity to look at the five layers of self love

with some questions to start the journey. So there's a link, and the link is

in the show notes. It's on YouTube. The easiest way to redeem the link and

to get all the links for any episode, including this one, is to be a

subscriber to my email community@imperfectadulting.com and the reason

it's easy is just because then it comes straight to your email box and you

can click on the link, which is just great. So I always say

that. All right, Ann, are you ready for the final questions? I am.

All right. Very, very good. Okay.

What was the last thing that you bought or

purchased? Can be big, can be small, and was it for you or was

it for somebody else? Else? And so I guess you have to be willing to

share it publicly. So if you bought something you don't want to share, then

the thing before that. Okay, well, it's crazy. Thing is, just as we

were starting today, Amy, they walked up with a package. It's at my door.

Okay. And I'm not quite sure what's in it.

So that could tell you something about the kind of shopper that I am.

That is so funny. That's such a modern. That's such a modern situation.

And we get. I don't know, we. We get the previews now of what

we order. And we've got all these kids and they're ordering things. And so

sometimes you. Some. Sometimes you'll see a picture of it, and you're like, what is

that? And where is that? And then you realize that's not here. And I didn't

order it. I just get to pay the bill, so. Very good. And the previous

one that just came, which is kind of fun, it's a charcoal face mask. It

just came yesterday in the mail. Earl and I do facials together

twice a week, so it's kind of one of those couple things. Fantastic. So

I love that. All right, so today, in 2020,

5. If you are looking what used to be called local news,

things like local events, information about your community, you know,

restaurants, sales, things like that, where are you these days going to find

that information? Are you a subscriber to a newspaper? Do you have an email

newsletter that you follow? Do you look it up in Google? Do you call a

friend? Do you watch tv? How do you find that information?

My husband. You ask your husband. He's the information source.

He runs our Instagram, which is

Temple Terroir Organics. We named our garden Temple

Terroir and. But he follows

everything local that we love, so he follows music,

event places, restaurants, distilleries,

wineries, you name it. Right. All the different things that might be going on in

the bay. And he just keeps up with that that way. And then says, oh,

hey, it's first Friday. Do you want to go? Or it's, you know,

SF Beer week. Which ones are we hitting? He just. He keeps up with

that, and then we talk about them. That's a beautiful arrangement. I love that

you. And you don't have to worry about it. Exactly. All right. Very. I don't

have to hold the calendar. Well, I. Eventually. I do hold the calendar. I'm the

master of the calendar yet. Yeah, he's looking at what's coming up. And then you

put it on the calendar. You keep track of things. Okay, That's a. That's a

good divide of. Good division of household responsibility. All

right, so what is something that other people, just other human beings

do that sometimes bugs you and you're

not afraid to claim it out loud?

Can I have more than one? You can. I mean, you don't have to even

share as many. You can. Yeah. So, you know, I really

get irritated with people that use their blinker all the time.

Okay. Or. Or don't. And technically,

people. It's called a signal. It's supposed to signal what you're doing in

your car. So if you never turn it off,

it's not signaling anything to anybody around you.

Right. And if you never turn it on, you're not signaling to

people that you're doing something. So that's one. That's a real pet peeve.

There's a joke we use it in Miami, but I think other cities also use

it, too, that, like, you know, people do not use their single signal

or their indicator here in Miami because it's showing a sign of weakness as a

driver. Got to keep your edge. Be surprised if you. We're famous for our

terrible drivers down here, and it's deserved. It's a well deserved criticism of my

community. All right, all right. That's it. And Evanston, thank you so much for

being an amazing guest today on the show. Thank you, Amy. I appreciate it. It

was great.