Episode 329 of the pilot, the Pilot podcast takes off now in aviation, as everyone knows now, American airlines, operated by PSA Flight 5342, which had the midair with the Blackhawk crashed in the Potomac River.

I just want to go ahead and say it's just awful, right?

Like, it is completely awful.

Sharing it online, just everything that goes with it.

It's just.

It is extreme, sad situation.

Just thinking of the families that are going to bed without their loved ones waking up the next day and experiencing that loss and just realizing that it wasn't a bad dream and it was real life.

My heart just goes out to him.

This could have been any one of us.

This could have been any airplane.

This could have been you as a passenger, it could have been you as the pilot.

And it really kind of puts in and it reminds you of what we do and that this is always something that can happen.

This is why we're professionals.

This is why we try to do the best that we can every single flight and make sure we get ourselves home safe and our passengers home safe.

And when stuff like this happens, I just urge you not to be the one to share it right away on social media.

I think in these situations it is best to sit back, give your condolences and prayers if that's what you're into, and just kind of be there for your friends and just grieve and just love and just understand what people are going through.

And they don't necessarily need to see the video over and over, over again.

They just need friends and they need support.

So if anyone needs to talk, you know, you can always reach out to me, reach out to your friends, whatever it is.

But I just want to say my condolences to everyone that has been affected by this crash.

And if you see me not posting anything or much about it, it's not because of a lack of care.

It's just because I'm trying to respect the people that have lost their lives and the families that are involved, and it's just an awful situation.

So this is more long winded than I thought.

We have a great episode coming up and I don't want it to take anything away from Mike and what we got now, but it's just something that needed to be addressed and I just feel for everyone that's involved and reach out if you need to.

So here's the episode with Mike Bardillo, and I hope you enjoy it.

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Name is Mike Pardillo.

I was a former EA 18G Growler pilot in the Navy.

I did that for 11 and a half years, separated in May and then made my transition over to the major.

Airlines in 121 world AV nation.

What is going on?

And welcome back to the Pilot the Pilot Podcast.

My name is Justin Seams and I am your host.

Today's episode is with a good buddy of mine, Mike Pardillo.

Mike was in my initial class and we did training together.

We weren't actually training partners, but we were kind of in the group of three or four people that we just had a group chat, we had breakfast, we had dinner.

We were always talking about struggles and training, so we always call each other trauma buddies for going through that, surviving that together.

But Mike comes on and he talks about his military experience.

He talks about flying, he talks about in depth about carrier landings, which was so fun to listen to and just pick his brain because it's something that's just so foreign to me.

And as a civilian pilot, just hearing these stories is awesome.

And it was also great to have Mike and all my other military buddies in there.

And this is the first time I feel like I had stories where they weren't talking about Sear school.

I think I said that right.

Talking about survivor skills and surviving this and how they got beat up.

So it was great to have that conversation with Mike without hearing those stories again for the time.

But anyways, Mike, I appreciate you coming on, man.

I hope you all enjoy this podcast.

So, any further ado, here's my buddy, Mike Pardillo.

Mike, what's going on, man?

Welcome to the Pilot, the Pilot podcast.

Hey, thanks for having me, dude.

It's been a while.

I missed you.

Right.

For those of you who don't know, Mike and I were in the same hiring class and we kind of, we call each other trauma buddies because, you know, we went through.

We weren't initial partners, but we were in the same kind of group.

We ate breakfast, lunch, dinner with each other every single day and just told stories about how terrible pilots we were.

Yeah, yeah, we don't know how we're going to pass.

We cried at dinner every night.

Yeah, but shout out to the campus food because the Tavern is sick.

If you, if you know, you know.

That's all I'm going to say that place was.

I was blown away because I didn't know about it right prior to.

And then that facility is amazing.

So, yeah, it was really cool.

Kind of helped out until they raised the price was we were there for our initial two week class.

Everything was like super cheap.

We're all looking at each other like, this is awesome.

Like, we're living like kings out here.

And then we come in for initial and all the prices have been like doubled.

It's like, what the heck.

Yeah, they gotta change that, man.

Yeah, dude.

Well, we're not here to gloat and to talk about our campus or the airline we work at.

They can pay me more for that later.

No, I'm just kidding.

But we're here to talk about you.

We're here to talk about you in aviation particularly, and how you even got in aviation.

So obviously you mentioned that you flew in the Navy and you got to do some pretty cool stuff with that.

But was flying kind of always on your horizon or was there a specific moment that you remember where you're like, ah, being a pilot's kind of cool, dude.

I tell you what, I, I didn't make my decision until my senior year of college to pursue aviation at all.

I'd always been interested.

Right.

Like, my dad worked right next to Miami International and we live right by Fort Lauderdale International and there's a little viewing area there and we'd go and watch planes or take off and Land and stuff.

But it was always a pipe dream for me.

I had Microsoft flight simulator.

I did all that stuff.

It was always very interesting, you know, But I didn't have the, like, the precedent.

Like, my dad wasn't a pilot.

Right.

There's nobody in my family.

I didn't know anybody who was a pilot.

So it was never on my radar.

Bad pun.

Sorry.

It was never a.

I never thought it was a possibility.

So I went through college in Orlando, and I was supposed to, while studying to be an attorney.

No way.

Really?

Yeah, it wasn't working out.

And I did an internship at a firm one summer.

And at the end of the summer, I was like, there's no way I can do this.

I can't do this for the rest of my life.

So I was kind of stuck.

And like I said, senior year of college, I didn't have a plan.

And I talked to my dad and he's like, well, you know, you've always been interested in aviation, which is true, but I'd never really looked into it at all.

So he's like, look into it.

The military will pay for all that stuff.

So give it a shot.

So that's how I got my start.

I kind of had a terrible.

My plan was all my eggs in one basket, like plan A.

No plan B or C, and just kind of.

Kind of go for it and see what happens and set my expectations kind of at the bottom.

So I applied to the Navy.

Well, first I applied to the Air Force, and they were like, no, you're not qualified.

Yeah, they're like, you're not qualified.

I was like, yeah, that's fair enough.

Like, I didn't have a.

Like a technical background, right?

Like, I was a pre law in quotations major.

I didn't have like an engineering background or anything like that.

And the Navy said they take me, which I was grateful for.

So I took the entrance exam.

I went to their officer candidate program, got a pilot slot, you know, got lucky along the way, and, you know, it worked out from there.

So as someone that was.

There was a military in your family before, like, was military a crazy idea to be brought up to you in the first place, or was it kind of not for me personally?

Like, if someone said, go to the military, like, no, I'm good.

Hard pass.

Yeah, yeah.

Nobody in my family had ever served before.

So it was a brand new concepts for everybody.

So there was some learning.

There's a learning curve within the family element, right, of like, joining the military, being gone, doing all that kind of Stuff, but I kind of, I was the first person to go and it came with its difficulties.

Right.

You know, a lot of families that don't have that history, it's, it's difficult for them to understand, hey, why are you moving to this part of the country?

You know, why are you going on this deployment?

When are you going to be back?

And all those questions are hard to answer.

But I was the first one.

So, um, yeah, it was tough initially.

Did the military, obviously when you go into something like that, you're selected by the Navy your dreams to be a pilot, it's up to you to work hard.

Right?

Like they're not going to give you a pilot side.

You got to earn it.

But before all that, like you're doing basic training, you're going to officer school, pretty much just like the noob in the military and probably getting yelled at and forced to do stuff that you necessarily didn't want to do.

When you are, what you were just a senior in undergrad, in college and just living your best life.

Was it hard to transition to like military mike versus civilian mic or were you kind of like, hey, this is like, I don't know what else I'm going to do.

So I got to make this work.

It was definitely, I got to make this work because I didn't have another plan, you know what I mean?

And I went into the school with, or officer candidate school and the military in general with like, I'm going to be a pilot, I'm not doing anything else.

Right.

So like, it was like a make or break type of scenario.

So I had to go all in on the whole thing, you know, to make sure, you know, I was performing well and I was passing the tests and I was, you know, I was doing the physical training well, you know, I had to go all in and all that stuff.

But yeah, it was tough.

I mean, I went from, like you said, public college in Florida on my own schedule to a regimented thing, getting up every day at 5am it was, it was a shock for sure, you know, but what's interesting and cool about the military is like, you adjust to that new lifestyle because you have to.

Right?

Because you're getting yelled at and you're getting, you got to do push ups and run and stuff like that.

So it's kind of like, well, I have to do all this stuff.

But it was a big change.

You get used to it quick.

Yeah.

And it was only, it only took a couple weeks until you kind of, you dive into that routine.

It becomes A part of your life, and that's your life now.

You know, you kind of just do it day by day.

There was definitely the light of the end of the tunnel thing though.

It's like, you know, I only got to do this for a month or so, six weeks, I think it was, before I can move on and start flying, which is what I really wanted to do.

So there's like means to an end type deal if you catch them in drift.

Yeah.

What was the, what was the best part of basic training or kind of your initial six weeks and the worst part, if there was the best part?

Man, I don't know.

That's a difficult question.

That's a great question.

I think you're.

When you sign the dotted line and you show up to training and the officer candidate school program is nothing like the basic training in Chicago for the Navy.

So, like, basic training for the Navy's in Chicago, officer candidate schools in like Rhode Island.

So they're kind of separated a little bit.

And it's nothing like that.

This is like a six, six week, like quick and dirty.

Here's the military.

This is how you military customs and courtesies, right?

Like, and then you're out the door.

So being a part of that big machine of the Navy, you're in the uniform, you know, you're seeing other people in uniform.

That was kind of inspiring, I guess, in a way to be a part of something like that.

Right?

Because I went from 0 to 100, like, like that, you know, I didn't know what to expect.

So that was definitely cool.

And then the worst part, I mean, no phones.

You made a phone.

You made a phone call on a payphone.

You don't even have payphones anymore.

Like when you showed up, like, hey, to let your family know that you were there and you made it.

I don't know how to work this thing.

Yeah, right.

So, you know, you are removed from, I guess, like your normal day to day life and like society in a sense, right?

Like, you're like taken.

You're like sucked out of it, right?

And you're immersed in this world.

It was hard to get used to at first.

And the worst part was just being away, right?

Like, we take bus rides to go to different training exercises.

They're like a school bus.

And just like looking outside, like, as you go by, like a Dunkin Donuts or like a, you know, or whatever, you know, a restaurant, like a McDonald's, you're like, Man, I would kill for like Dunkin Donuts or McDonald's Big Mac right now.

But it's quick, right?

Six weeks and it was done at the time.

It felt like forever, but.

But you look back on it, you know, 2020 hindsight, right?

You're like, oh, that wasn't, that wasn't too bad.

As someone who's done officer training school, I'm talking about you, not me.

Obviously done officer training school, has done the public school, went to the big university.

Looking back on kind of your career, do you think it would have been more beneficial for you to go the academy route and get in earlier or do you prefer the way you did it?

I'm gonna get yelled at by all the academy guys for sure because they, they, they love the Naval Academy.

And I don't have anything against the Naval Academy, Right.

Like, I've never been to Annapolis, so I don't know.

Never been?

No, no, I've never been.

I've been to.

Now.

You need to step your game up, bro.

I mean, I've heard it's cool, but you know, I've got a lot of friends that have gone, but I've just never, you know, I've never been around that.

I will say I thought it was way more fun to go to a four year university and kind of have my own life and figure out who I was and have my own schedule and do what I wanted to do.

Again, I don't know anything about the Naval Academy and how they run things, but you're in the military from like day one, you know what I'm saying?

So.

And you.

I've met, you know, college guys, Naval academy guys.

I've met ROTC guys and they all say that their way was, was the best way to do it.

I'm biased.

I wanted my, I mean, you know, I just wanted my college experience to be open and I could kind of do what I wanted.

Whereas NROTC was similar.

Right.

Like you're still going to a university that has that program and then the Naval academy side is like, it's this prestigious university, right?

And like, there's, you know, a lot of history there.

I still stick to my guns though, in my, my public university, my public college there, but that's just me.

Yeah.

Well, I recommend you go to one where they win the national championship football.

So, you know, go Ohio State.

Oh, yeah.

Well, hey, we hung our banner, right, that everybody gets mad at for.

Was it 2017 undefeated season, dude?

Yeah, I think it was 2017 National Champs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Second Alabama.

But it's cool, you can claim whatever you want.

Yeah, Whatever.

Yeah.

So you are kind of done with officer training school.

What's the plan?

Like, you want to be a pilot, right?

But obviously you're just trained to be an officer.

What comes next?

What are your actionable steps to kind of achieve your goal?

So you get assigned a pilot slot before you even get to officer candidate school.

So you're assigned your job before you get there.

So you kind of know where you're going to go pending a medical evaluation that you do like want to say the first week you're there.

So as long as medically you're like, you're good to go and there's no issues, you can kind of continue on that path.

You don't do anything pilot oriented at officer candidate school whatsoever.

So as long as the medical thing goes well, you get out and then you get sent down to Pensacola for, I think they still call it API, aviation, Pre flight indoctrination, which is just like Brown school.

So that's.

Everybody goes there.

Everybody goes to Pensacola.

Marines and, and Navy guys.

You do like a month or two.

It's been a while.

I did this in like 2013 of just like classroom work.

And they used to do.

You go like fly a Cessna around.

I don't think they do that anymore.

But you do classroom work, you take courses like navigation, like a whiz wheel, you break a whiz wheel out, you're doing stuff like that.

You're doing weather, hard pass, you're doing.

I know, dude.

So it's brutal, you know, like you're doing like a mechanical engineering class, you're doing an aero class where you're learning about like basic aerodynamics.

And then you do a little bit of water survival training as well.

And then when you leave there, you show up for primary flight training.

So that's kind of like just like a intro to I guess naval aviation.

It's just classroom work, you know, for, for a couple of weeks.

And you go there before you know what kind of aircraft you're going to fly, right?

Oh yeah.

What aircraft you're eventually going to fly as a ground school and kind of the API or.

No, no, that's just kind of like a welcome to how we do things in the Navy type deal as far as aviation is concerned.

Got it.

You know, and then you show up for your primary flight training, which is in the T6 Texan.

That's where you figure out what you're gonna go fly based on your performance.

And that was the first plane you ever flew was a T6.

Or did you Fly the Cessna.

I flew a.

Dude, I'd have to look at my logbook.

I'm so bad with civilian aircraft.

Like a Piper Cherokee or something like that.

Okay.

But I don't think that's required anymore.

That was required when I went through.

And you get, like, 10 hours in it.

I think that was the first airplane I ever flew.

And then the second airplane I flew was the T6.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

Which is nuts, man.

Yeah.

Like.

And you don't even know at the time because you're so naive.

At least I was, because I didn't have any experience.

I'm like, okay, this is how airplanes, you know, and other guys that have ga experience are like, this thing is a beast.

Like, it's.

You know, I don't know.

This thing's gonna get you, man.

You better know what you're doing.

Yeah, yeah.

So.

So you do that.

I think it's like, six months.

I want to say, I'm so bad, dude.

With the timelines.

I'm so sorry.

This is probably terrible.

Interview.

And then at the completion of that, after you're done flying the T6, is when you branch off.

So either go the jet pipeline, the helicopter pipeline, or the big wing pipeline.

So, like, the P8 and the E6 and the helicopters, we fly the 60s.

And then the jet pipeline will take you Navy and Marine Corps both.

So it's changed recently because I don't think they select for the Harriers anymore, But the Marine guys are flying Hornets or F35.

But you don't select that yet because you got to go flying the T45, which is what I instructed in.

But anyway, you branch off jet pipeline helos, and then.

And then the big wing is kind of where you split at the end of flying the T6.

What was your goal, like, going into there, like, your dream?

Was it to fly fighters?

Was it fly helicopters?

Was it five big airplanes?

What was your goal?

Dude, I joined the Navy to land on aircraft carriers.

And, like, that's what I wanted to do.

And that was goal number one.

I knew that that that goal was going to be, like, extremely difficult to get.

Like, I understood that, but I was going to try and put my best foot forward and do as best as I could and get there.

Like, I didn't join the Navy to land on runways like, I wanted to be, you know, and carrier aviation.

That's what I wanted to do.

That being said, like, you know, you could.

You could perform the bet.

You could be the top of your class, and they just don't have those slots available for that cycle.

And you know, you get sent to something else to go fly something else.

So that was also in the cards as well.

So you could be number one.

Usually it doesn't happen, but if there's some, they need helicopter pilots or they need PA pilots, like, that's where you're going.

So there's that in the back of your mind too, you know, like if you had your heart set, that's why you always had to be.

You had to have plan B.

Right.

Like in plan C.

Hey, you know, I really want to go fly F18s, but this is what my backup plan is.

Like, because of duty stations or the type of flying or like whatever.

No, but that was my goal 100% was, was to go carrier aviation for sure.

And there's big wing planes that fly, that do carrier aviation.

Right.

Like the COD and the E2C2.

But that was the goal from the get go.

And was there any time where you thought that wasn't going to happen?

You're like, holy smokes, there is no chance I'm going to be able to do this.

I mean, the learning curve was insane.

Yeah.

You'd get back from every flight.

Like, I don't know if I made the right choice.

Like, that was like, just like in, you know, when we're flying together in Dallas, you're like, whoa, that was difficult.

Right?

So, yes.

Every single day you're like, I don't know if this is gonna work out.

You know, like that flight didn't go so well.

Like, it was just constant because it's so new and it's so fast.

But as long as you have a good group of guys.

We had like a study group, right.

That we'd study with.

Everybody ended up doing okay.

Like, there weren't a lot of people washing out of flight school, but still, like every single day you walk into the squadron spaces and you're like, man, I hope this goes well today.

You know, so, yeah, it was really hard.

You know, when we were in training, you know, they always preach like, we don't want you to fail.

Like, you have all the resources in the world for you to pass.

We want you to pass.

We're investing in you.

Did you feel the same way at the military where they're like, hey, if you can't do this, GTFO doors right there, buddy.

Get out of here, dude.

It was very much like that.

Like, if you weren't ready, like if you weren't prepared, it would start in the brief, right?

Like, with preparation, like, if.

If whatever reason you were missing a bunch of questions that the instructor was asking you, or like, you didn't know the system that you were briefing that day, or whatever the case, it depended on the instructor.

Some guys would just cut.

Cut you right there.

Like, all right, we're done.

We're not going flying today.

Like, you don't know your stuff.

Other guys would be more willing to take the airborne and let you go fly and then maybe debrief you.

Right.

Accordingly.

But everybody was on edge.

Like, there was nobody that was comfortable.

Like, yeah, got it.

You know, like, even the guys with prior experience, I would say those people had a harder time because they had a bunch of old habits they needed to break.

Because the military wants things done a certain way, just like any.

Any major airline differ from airline to airline.

But at the same time, those guys had to break those habits.

Those guys and gals had to break those habits, and it was difficult for them.

Like, one of my good buddies that went through training, he had some GA experience and he had to, like, completely purge all that stuff from his brain for me.

Kind of a fresh ball of clay, right?

You can mold and do whatever you need to to get them to fly the way you want to fly, but every day was nerve wracking because the brief was the worst part.

Like, the flying was great.

I mean, flying was stressful, but once you got in the airplane, you're like, okay, geez, thank God, you know, I.

Don'T have to talk anymore.

But the briefs were so stressful, you know, and it's.

Yeah, I'd imagine it's still that way.

Like, I instruct still, and we still, you know, we brief hour and a half, two hours prior to every flight, make sure we know what we're doing.

But, yeah, we're all scared walking in.

As someone who, you know, it's pretty fresh on you.

Like, you're not fresh now because you're old as crap.

I'm just kidding.

But as someone who kind of went through then can relate to the new student, the one that's, like, freaking out, and now you are on the other side, as being an instructor, were you more.

More kind to that?

Were you like, the guy like, all right, hey, like, we're gonna make this work.

You're like, hey, I went through this, so you need to go through this too, dude.

I call it the pledge mentality, where if you were, like, beat down hard in flight school for whatever reason it could be, however many reasons there are, and you bring that mentality back as an instructor.

Like, you failed as an instructor.

Like, that's my, my own own opinion, right?

Like, I try and treat every student with, you know, I never look up the students I'm flying with.

Like, they show up.

It's like a blank slate.

And I just kind of try and learn about them in the brief.

Different instructors have different techniques on briefing styles.

I'm of the opinion that I'm going to figure out what, you know, what you don't know in the airplane.

Mainly because I want to go flying because I like it, but guys just have different techniques.

But I've always thought that that was unfair to the student, right?

To come in, like, you know, just hammering them right off the get go.

I'm going to ask you questions, right?

And like, if I don't, if you don't know the answer, it's like, okay, well, that's one he didn't know.

It was pretty easy.

1.

I just throw softballs, man.

Like, I don't, you know, I don't ask difficult questions.

It's just stuff you need to know.

Yeah, but if it's like, you know, one question wrong, two questions, three questions, four questions, and now it's like, okay, like, I might dig a little bit deeper, but for the most part, I just want to create an environment that is what I think conducive to learning, which is just like, hey, man, let's just chill.

Let's have a conversation between me and you.

Let's talk about what we're going to go do.

And then in the debrief is what I'm going to teach you everything.

Like, if I try and teach you everything in a brief, talk about all these things that maybe you're doing for the first time, it's just going to go in one ear and out the other.

But if we talk about what we're going to go do, and then we go do it in the airplane and then in the debrief, we're like, okay, man, did you see how all of this.

Does it now make sense?

Or like, do you see where you messed up here?

Or maybe could have done that a little bit better.

That's what I think is more beneficial, you know, for someone who's like, but I was walking in super nervous, like, oh my God, like, I need to know my bold face procedures.

I need to know my limitations.

Like, and you're just not even listening in the brief as a student, you're just like reciting all the stuff that you think you should know.

You're just like, oh, my God, you know, and you're not even paying attention.

So if I can create an environment of like, hey, man, where are you from?

Cool.

Just small talk.

Like, just calm the tension in the briefing space and then just have a conversation about what we're going to go do and then go execute it.

The flights go so much better.

Yeah.

Which is tough to do because, I mean, that's just how aviation.

That's kind of how life is.

Right.

Like, you get molded by your experiences, and that's what you know.

So you just assume that that's how you need to teach everyone else, and that's just how everyone learns.

And if you can't do it, you can't do it.

It's just, like, sucks to suck, dude.

Like, there's the door.

Get out.

But it's important to be the person to change that.

Right.

Just because someone.

I didn't get hazed in football, but previously, like, in the 90s, there was a lot of hazing in football, and just because they're hazed, someone had to be the person to stop that and be like, all right, well, we're not going to hang people from goal posts by duct tape anymore.

It's like, it's not a good idea to try to kill the new guy.

Like, let's just not do that anymore.

And, you know, people learn in different ways.

Sometimes students need the, hey, wake up, man.

What is going on right now?

And some people don't.

Like, some people don't respond to that.

But in the future, 100%, where they need to know what they're doing, sure, maybe a little tough love is prudent, but when they're brand new and they don't know what's going on, I try and think where I was.

And it's like, sometimes that approach is just doesn't.

It's not a good learning environment.

You know what I mean?

That's my take on it, anyway.

No, for sure.

I mean, yeah, you're getting yelled at in the airplane.

Like, you're just checked out.

At that point, you're like, all right, yeah, I don't know.

Take me back.

I don't know what's going on when.

You'Ve got your wings and you're in an airplane, that you should know what you're doing by all means.

Like, hey, we need to, like, talk tough about what just happened, because that's not cool at all.

Or, like, that's unsat.

Sure.

But when they're students, like, yeah, not me with.

So obviously you were an instructor we talked about that.

But talk about the T6.

I guess we talked about T6.

But what came next after T6 and kind of like the whole path to getting where you are and your path to choosing the airplane you want.

Yeah.

So you go, I selected jets, which was great.

I was super excited about that.

And then you can either go to Kingsville, which is where.

Is where I'm in the reserve now, or you go out to Meridian, Mississippi and you'll go fly the T45.

Gosh, excuse me.

And then you show up there and the syllabus has changed quite a bit.

But I think it takes about a year.

All the production guys are going to yell at me and the operation guys.

It doesn't take a year to get them out the door.

I don't know, it takes about a year to get those guys through.

So when I went through, you show up and you do some sims on like basic instrument stuff and then you go into the familiarization stage, sitting in the front seat, starting up the airplane stuff like that.

And then you go into like the more advanced stuff.

But that process takes about a year to get them through the door.

And then you have your selection at the end of that, culminating in you getting your wings, selecting the aircraft that you're going to fly for your career at a big ceremony that we do in an auditorium, which is actually pretty cool, and then you go from there.

So I selected the, the Growler, which is out in the Pacific Northwest and Whitby island wasn't my first choice.

Oh really?

Yeah, no, I had it at the bottom which, you know, like you look back on it and I was upset at the time, but I don't, I would do it again that way, the same way I did it.

The experiences I had and the people I met, like you just can't, you can't change that stuff.

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That's allworthairline.com pilotthePilot and now back to today's episode.

Have you had any like, for lack of a better Word.

Sorry if your kids listening.

But like any oh shit moments when you're.

When you're up there flying, like doing a mission, you're like, oh, this is bad.

Surprisingly not.

During the mission phase, all the oh shit moments were like.

We call it in the admin phase of flight, which is terminal area, taking off, landing for the most part.

Like, at least in my opinion, the Navy and all the different branches are really good at executing their missions.

And then we have issues in the admin and like the easy stuff because we're so focused on the mission that we just briefed for four hours.

The terminal environment stuff is kind of where all the shenanigans happen, at least in my experience.

Right.

That's where we see the most.

Like, oh, moments like, oh, God, like, that was not good.

Like, that was bad.

Like when the F35 got their throttle quadrant or whatever, it was stuck in armrest.

Like that kind of like, oh, moments.

Yeah, I don't know about that one, but.

But yeah, like taking off and landing, man.

You know, like simple stuff that can get you into trouble if.

If you're not thinking about it.

Yeah.

And it's at the ship.

Like, when I was new, that's all I was thinking about was landing on the aircraft carrier.

Like, sure, yeah, mission great.

Like, got it.

You know, we'll go, we'll do our best, but dude, especially at night, that's in the back of my mind the entire flight, like.

And anyone tells you different is lying to you because, like, you can't.

I mean, we'll focus on the mission.

Right.

But it's still back there.

Like, you're still thinking about it.

Like, I gotta go find this ship and I gotta go land at night and the deck's moving and there's no horizon and you know, it's super scary.

So that anxiety is always there.

You're always just like, oh, crap.

Even, dude, even with the new, like, there's more precise landing modes that are available now.

It's called plm Precision landing mode.

That all the fighter aircraft, growlers, not the E2, C2 or the COD, those are the tried and true still ball flyers out there.

But all the, all the jets had now have like a precision landing mode.

That being said, it doesn't make it any easier.

Like it's still a mind game.

Is it Mechanically easier?

Yeah, 100%.

But it's not mentally any easier, you know, and you're always thinking about it.

You never get used to it.

Like, you get more.

You get more familiar.

Right.

I guess is the best way to put it with like the carrier environment.

But you're never like comfortable.

At least I was never comfortable.

Right.

And yeah, it's always in your mind for sure.

What was your first one like?

Like the first time you took off, the first time you're coming in and you're like, oh f.

Like this is not gonna be good.

So the first time you do it is by yourself, which sounds crazy.

Yeah.

But you're a student in the T45, which is what I'm instructing in, and you go by yourself the first time.

So you land before you ever take off for the first time.

And you don't really remember it.

You kind of just like are on stem power and you're so overwhelmed with.

At least I was.

Everything going on that you, you trap.

Right.

You stop.

And you had practiced it and chair flown it and done a simulator so many times that you just go into this like, I don't know, autopilot.

Muscle memory, like your brain, like your body just like does what you did in the simulator.

You don't have the muscle memory yet for like the landing.

Like that's not there yet, but the muscle memory sort of for like just clearing the landing area and like getting out is kind of there.

So you kind of stop.

That's like a car crash.

You kind of like come to a little bit and it takes you a little bit longer to like get your bearings.

You're like, okay, I stopped.

Like that's good.

And then you know, you're, you're going into clearing the la and your procedures and cleaning up and going to get fuel and like you're kind of just like bang, bang.

So you don't.

I didn't remember my first trap.

Yeah, you still don't remember.

Like it just happened like you were.

It's like a mental block.

Like you don't know if it was good or bad.

You all of a sudden, you know as you're on the ground, you're like, oh, dang.

No, you just black.

I mean, I blacked out.

You know, you're just like.

It's so like mentally like task saturating.

Yeah.

That you kind of just like forget.

At least I did what happened.

It's funny, this is kind of similar, but like not entirely similar, but it kind of just goes to like a high pressure.

Your first time.

Yeah.

So I went to Ohio State in the spring, obviously have a big spring game.

Every football team does.

And my very first play that I had was a pass and there's a picture I don't.

I don't think it's on the Internet anymore because I'm old now.

But there was a picture of me throwing the ball.

My eyes were closed, and I was just, like, going like this.

And my eyes are closed and I completed it.

It was like a 30 yard pass, but I don't remember anything about the throw.

I don't remember where the defense was.

I don't remember where anything was.

I was just like, oh, my goodness gracious, please complete this.

And I think that's.

I mean, it's kind of a weird thing to compare it to, but it sounds like it's a similar situation where you're just like, oh, you, like, pull back.

You're like, I think I flared and I did it.

I did it.

Hey, no flare, by the way.

You just landed.

But yes, it is.

It's the exact same thing that you're talking about where.

Because you want to do well, too.

That's the other thing is, like, you want so well, you want so bad to do well that sometimes you're so focused on what's going on that, like, you completely missed, you know, what happened 20 seconds ago, which is pretty common.

I mean, students that I talk to now to, because I work with them, and I, you know, and I get them ready to go in on the ship.

Yeah.

I'm like, how was it?

Like, I don't know.

It was crazy.

What do you mean you don't know?

You just land on a plane, on aircraft carrier, you don't remember?

It sounds about right.

Yeah.

Is it similar to, you know, when you take your first solo?

I don't know how it is in the military, but when you take it for solo again, I could tell a story.

I was.

I was at Ohio State.

I was at Ohio State Airport.

I was holding short, I think of like, nine left the bigger Runway.

Solo.

My instructor was up on the tower at the time.

Like, there was the.

The one tower person, I think his name was Tony.

He was a character.

And before I take off, he's like, good luck.

We're all watching you.

Yeah.

Are you kind of, like, psyching them up a little bit?

Are you kind of like, hey, man, you know, there's a ton of people on that boat.

They're gonna hold up scorecards.

They're all gonna be watching you.

Like, do you kind of mess with their brain a little bit, or is it just like whenever it's the first day to go in on a ship, you're like, all right, this is where you're like, hey man, you got this.

Like, you're going to be great.

It's more positive, right?

Like, I don't try and play mind games with, with anybody because one, I think it's kind of messed up, you know, like what they're about to go do is the most dangerous thing that we do in the Navy.

So no, I, when I.

And it's a long brief, man, it's like three hours.

I try and keep it short.

I don't ever brief for that long because you just lose people, you know, and they're, they're not even listening to you anyway.

They're thinking about landing on a boat.

Yeah, they're crapping their pants.

They're just like.

So I hit the big ticket items.

Like, hey, these are the frequencies we need to be on when in doubt.

Just because I take them out there on my wing.

Like, just fly good formation.

I'll pass.

I'll push you through all the frequencies you need to be on and then I'll get you to your safe space, which is the ship.

Because you've thought about this for the past month and you've done it in the simulator a little bit.

I'll get you to your safe space and then it's, you know, it's kind of on you.

But, you know, trust what you've learned.

Trust your paddles, your, your lso, who's the instructor that's done one on one instruction with, with them and is on the back of the boat talking to them on the phone.

So trust them.

You trust yourself and like, everything is going to be fine.

There's so many safety nets in place that if it starts to get weird, it's very easy to just wave them off, get rid of them, and we'll try again.

You say it's very easy, but I feel like in that moment, you know, you're so hyper focused that maybe you just like lock up, right?

Like someone's like, all right, go around, go around.

You're just like, do to do, do to do.

Gonna fly.

Gotta land, gotta land, gotta land.

Dude, we, we practice for a month, every single day.

It's called FCLP Field Carrier Landing Practice.

And it's the same setup sort of that you're gonna see on the ship where there's a painted landing area on the Runway.

So it's smaller, it's off to the left hand side.

The visual aid that they use called the iflaws or the meatball is the same one that's on the boat.

The communication between the LSO and the Student is the same on the boat, so nothing really changes except there's a boat out there and there's water everywhere, right?

And as lsos, we don't.

When they're first starting, we'll maybe accept some worse performance or like, somebody who's not doing too well, but as you progress through, like, you need to be doing well at the field before we take you out to the boat.

And that's an evaluation that we do at the end of their three or four weeks that they do bouncing at the field.

And even when they get to the ship, there are procedures in place to not put them in a dangerous situation, if that makes sense.

Even if things go.

Even if things get real weird, we can kind of get rid of them and wave them off or send them back to the beach, back to the shore to make sure that, like, hey, we're not doing anything unsafe, you know.

Is that like a big day on the boat?

Or do they try to, like, is everyone kind of just like, we got the new guys coming in?

Do they all, like, want to watch and, like, see how it goes?

Or like, we're doing vacation.

I'm getting off this boat.

Time.

Time to get out of here?

No, we fly.

So the T45 is painted oil orange and white, which I cannot stand because it's like, they call it the clown.

The clown jet.

Which is true.

And they'll be like, oh, the clown jets are coming out today.

Like, everybody be on your A game.

Which is true because it's the first time they've ever done it right.

However, all the flight deck personnel sometimes use that time to train their new people.

So you've got brand new pilots.

You've also got brand new flight deck personnel.

Everybody's supervised, obviously, but people have to learn somehow, you know what I mean?

So sometimes it's, you know, a recipe for disaster.

But like I said, the flight deck personnel, like those guys that are trained up, are experts.

You know, they're really good at their job.

As lsos, we take pride in what we do, too.

And we wouldn't let anybody put themselves in a situation that was, you know, unsafe or anything like that.

What's like, worst case scenario in a carrier landing?

Is it you're lined up, like, to hit the ship, you're gonna hit, like, the control tower?

Is it you missing the wire or getting yourself in a spot where you don't have enough Runway or thrust left to get off the.

And you have to pull the shoot kind of what's like, oh, crap, there's.

So Many worst case scenarios.

There's like a million three.

Dude.

Every landing is the worst case scenario.

Like for real.

You make it sound so much fun.

Oh God.

Anytime it's dark.

Yeah, I wouldn't say.

I would say if you start combining emergencies with crappy weather with nighttime, that's when stuff people need to be on their A game.

That's when it gets bad.

And by bad I mean everyone's just uptight about it.

We train for those situations all the time.

We're always practicing our emergency procedures and landing aboard the ship with an emergency and everybody's briefed up on the issue.

There's no scenario where like anyone should be surprised, I would say, because we've kind of prepared for the worst case scenario.

But as a pilot, if I have some sort of malfunction that's affecting my configuration, that's the big one, right?

Like landing on the ship.

So if I have a flight control issue that's requiring me to fly at a faster airspeed, or if I have a gear malfunction, like if the gear is either not confirmed down in lock or have a trailing gear, something like that, and the weather's bad and it's at night or the decks moving, right, like the sea state is, is up there, that's when it gets hairy.

So I would say you kind of have to combine a couple different things to get to like worst case scenario.

And the crazy thing is is like you'll see those scenarios a lot on deployment, right?

Like that's kind of what we do.

But everyone's really professional about it.

And I've never been in a situation where I'm like, this is going to go bad.

You know, it's always been like, hey, let's work the problem.

Let's figure this out and let's get our boy or our girl on deck and we'll go from there.

What was like your particular.

Maybe like top two, Top one.

Kind of just like, oh yeah, this is going to be fun.

So I lost my motor in the T45, which is the only one we have.

Briefly.

Yeah, briefly.

That was one where.

And I was a student at the time too.

I didn't have my wings yet.

That was definitely one.

And then the other one was kind of self induced.

So I'll talk about the first one.

So I was doing a BFM sortie which is a basic fighter maneuvers.

Kind of like dog fighting, right?

You're kind of learning the basics.

And in the T45 it's Alpha restricted because if you pull too much alpha at slow speed, it restricts the airflow into the motor, and you choke the motor and you compress or stall.

It's like a.

No, it's a known issue, so we're never really maneuvering beyond that.

Alpha.

It's like 24 units or so.

And this was the second flight of the day.

And my instructor was like, you got to pull more for shots.

You're not pulling for shots.

Like, you know, like, you got to be more aggressive.

And I was like, roger that, done.

And you're, you know, you're.

You're a student.

You don't.

You're naive, right?

Like, you don't think the jet can break.

Like, you think you're invincible and your.

Instructor'S telling you to pull more.

So clearly you just need to pull more.

Well, within reason, right?

Like not.

Not to break or not to go outside the envelope.

But I did and I, I pulled for a shot, super slow airspeed, and I just put the stick in my lap.

So I spiked the AOA all the way, like, to stalled and I, I.

Compressor stalled the motor.

So I had the EGT come up on me.

So I had, I was upside down.

So I had the master caution, master warning EGT RPM light, which is, hey, your GT is out of limits or your RPM or whatever.

So.

And it kind of happened in slow motion.

You fly the airplane first, right?

That's what we've always been told.

So recover the airplane.

Step one was recover the airplane and go to idle and kind of assess what's going on.

We were probably around like 15 or 16,000ft, so we weren't that high.

So I got straight and level.

And my instructor at the time, he's like, what's going on?

Because we called a knock it off, right?

Anytime you have any sort of emergency while you're doing any sort of engagement, you call a knock it off.

It just means like, oh, stop.

Everybody stop what you're doing.

Like, everybody check in.

Cool.

He's here, he's here.

Let's figure out what's going on.

Everybody stop fighting.

So that's what we did.

He's like, what's up, man?

You know, like, very casual on the radio.

I'm like, my EGT is at a thousand degrees, which is well out of limits.

And I'm pretty sure I'm have to shut down the engine.

And he's like, okay.

And in our procedures, there's like a six second delay to where you wait for the EGT to respond.

So you wait for it to kind of creep back on You.

And it was going super slow.

And he's like, hey, what's it at now?

That's not good.

It's still up around 8, 900 degrees.

He's like, shut it down.

And I was like, say again?

Like, on the radio.

10.

He's like, shut the engine down.

Because that's the next part of the procedure, which bet on me, because that's bold face, right?

Like, if it's out of limits, you shut the engine down and try a restart.

So that throttle was at the off stop for like a millisecond, because I was like, nope.

And I put it back to idle, which is part of the procedure.

You pull it off, you put it back to idle, you engage the gts.

It's like an apu and motor starts spooling back up.

Everything worked out, but there was a time where I was kind of just gliding, you know, with no motor, and everything got very, very, very quiet.

And, like, it crossed my mind, like, you might have to get out of the airplane, you know, if.

If the motor doesn't come back.

But it worked out.

Motor came back, had to do a couple other things to get the systems reset.

And then we came back to land, and they were like, all right, nice job.

You gonna go fly tomorrow?

And I was like, I guess so.

Sure.

Like, you know, you're like, you're gonna.

Let me fly tomorrow, dude.

Give me a day.

Give me a day to process this.

But my one claim to fame on that whole experience was I checked in with base, right?

Like, it would be ops or something like that in the 121 world just to let them know what was going on.

And then when I landed, they were like, dude, you sounded very calm.

You sounded, like, cool and collected.

And I was like, that's a win, brother.

I'll take that.

I was freaking out.

Freaking out, yeah, for sure.

So that was probably, you know, losing an engine is probably top top five.

And then the other one was self induced out at the ship at night where I just couldn't land.

What do you do when you can't land?

Obviously you have to land, right, dude.

You pad your fuel in the beginning of deployment to give you, like two or three looks at a landing if it doesn't go well.

And then after that, you got to go to the tanker, and they'll kind of hold your hand when you start.

There's always a divert that's pretty close that you could go to if you need to.

Got it.

But we were in a scenario where the divert was really Far away.

I can't remember how far it was, but not, like, a quick trip.

So I boltered twice and had to go.

No, two or three times and had to go to the tanker, which is a whole nother scenario because it was dark.

I was the only dude airborne because it's the last recovery.

So I'm just me.

It's just me and the tanker, right?

So, like, I boltered three times and, like, I'm kicking myself.

I'm like, what's going on?

It's like an emotional roller coaster.

I joined up on the tanker.

He's like, hey, how much gas do you want, man?

Like, super calm, collected.

I'm like, give me all of it.

Give me everything you got.

Let me go back to max trap.

Unload it all, dude.

Give me all of it.

Yeah, I get a good bag of gas.

I bolter again, like, for the fourth time, and I'm like, dude, I don't.

Is the hook even on the airplane?

Like, what is going on?

And I was getting talked down so many lsos, or they were giving me glide slope calls and lineup calls, like, all the way to touchdown.

Just couldn't.

Couldn't figure it out that night.

I was second month of my first deployment, so I'm brand new.

I'm a nugget.

I was like, great, this is what I need.

I'm supposed to be under the radar, but now I'm, like, highlighting myself, because on the ship, everybody knows who you are.

It's televised.

All the recoveries are televised on the ship's tv.

And your name is up there with how many times you've missed, right?

It's like B for bolter.

It's like, B, B, B, B.

So I've got, like, five bolters come around for the fifth or sixth time.

I can't remember.

And finally I finally land, and I got a standing ovation from my squadron when I walked.

It was the worst.

It was awful.

And, like, I went with the worst part about that whole story was afterwards I went into this, like, slump.

You know how, like, hitters.

Yeah.

You know, and then it was just.

Because it was just right.

Yeah, yeah.

It was just back there.

And, like, I couldn't get out of it.

And I was flying terrible passes for the next couple of days after that whole thing went down.

And I had to, like, dig myself out of this weird slump that I was in.

And it was really frustrating because it's like, you know, you're better than that.

You're like, why?

How is this happening to me?

Like, what is going on.

Like, I know I can do better.

So.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because the only.

I mean, that happens in civilian training.

That happens in training, in general 121 training, right?

I mean, there's days where you're like, dude, how did I even get to this point?

Like, how did.

How did I even learn how to take off land?

Like, whatever it is, like, how come I'm messing this up?

But the only way to continue it and the only way to do it is just to fly through it.

Like, you have to keep doing it.

You have to keep just hitting your head against the wall until eventually your head goes through the wall and you're like, oh, cool, we got it.

Now we're done.

And one thing I'm grateful for is, like, my boss was like, you're flying tomorrow.

Like, get back in there.

You know?

Like, there was no law.

There was no time to sit there and just, like, feel sorry for yourself.

Right?

Because there's no time for that.

Like, go figure it out.

And if you keep messing it up, we'll look at your tapes and figure out what you're doing wrong and then go from there.

But you can't just sit there and dwell on it.

You know what I mean, Dude?

Being a fighter pilot, and when you just said, like, look at your tapes and do all this stuff, there's so many football comparisons to that where, like, they always used to say the tape is never as.

Or like, your play or you're flying, in your case, is never as good as you think it was or as bad as you think it was.

Like, we're gonna go back, we're gonna review it, but, like, it wasn't as bad as you thought it was.

Like, you did some good things, or if you did great, it's like, well, you actually kind of messed this up, too.

You almost killed everyone.

But great lightning, by the way.

Yeah, same thing in football.

It's like, hey, you threw two interceptions, but, like, look at all these good decisions you made right here.

Like, there's so many parallels between the two.

It's really interesting.

Yeah, and it's.

It's important to pick out the goods and the bads.

Like, when you're looking at the.

I mean, looking at tapes for.

For a carrier landing, there's.

There's only 18 seconds at the most of.

Of usable.

Well, that's not true, but it's not a lot of tape.

Right.

You know, so there's only a few things to look at.

But at the same time, in General, like when you're doing a tapes debrief, when you're looking at the whole flight and how you did this and how you.

There's always like, hey, pull out of that.

Three things you did well and three things you didn't do so well.

We don't even call them bad.

There's, like, three goods and three others that you can improve on for the next flight.

And that's, you know, every single debrief.

So, you know, we never really.

I mean, I want to transition to the 121 world, but I feel like we're missing a really important part of aircraft refueling and figuring that out.

Because outside, like, in my brain, outside of land, landing on a carrier, trying to just get this little hose to hook up into your airplane and then stay connected and not crash and kill both the airplane and knock out both airplanes.

Like, that just seems impossible to learn.

Yeah, you learn how to fly formation first.

So that's kind of the first piece.

And you fly it a lot.

It's all you do.

Like, every time you go fly, you're in formation with 1, 2, 3, 4 other airplanes.

That's kind of the first step is to kind of get comfortable there.

And then there's different types of tankers out there, too.

Like, there's what we call organic tanking, which is an F18 with a refueling pod on the bottom of it, where you're joining up on another F18 and he's putting the hose out and you're plugging and doing all that.

The first time you do it, though, is you do it.

You do it for real.

There's no, like, simulator.

There's no.

There's, like, videos of people doing it and, like, briefs on, like, hey.

And techniques.

Right.

Everybody has their own technique on, like, how it should be done, but you don't really know until you do it yourself.

And what I found was, like, the whole slow is smooth type deal, which is true in all of aviation.

Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.

That was kind of the ticket or the key to success in refueling on any.

Doesn't matter if it was a big wing Air Force KC135 or an F18.

It was doing the simple things Good.

Which was joining up on the airplane and getting into position and then kind of just taking it slow, like, not rushing anything.

But, yeah, it's a trip.

Like, the first time you do it.

Is it harder to be the tanker, or is it harder to be the jet getting the fuel?

So I've never been a tanker pilot.

Yeah.

But Those guys are good at what they do because at the ship, if you know, you'll know a certain guy is low on fuel and you got to put yourself in a position so that he can come off a touch and go or a bolter or whatever the case is and be right at your 11:00 or 2:00, it depends, but right there.

So, like, you come off this touch and go or this bolter and he should be right where he needs to be.

So you just pull the IFR probe out and you plug and you've got gas and it's quick.

So those guys are really good at what they do.

So I don't think, I mean, plugging is one thing, like getting in the basket is super difficult, but also managing your little tanker pattern is also super, super difficult as well.

Like, I was so grateful that night where I came off of that bolter and I needed fuel and that's the worst thing you need gas and you get right now.

And like, the longer you wait, the worse it gets.

And he was, bang, he was right there.

The hose was already out.

And like all I had to do was kind of like snuggle up and plug and snuggle up, which was not easy, right.

Like, you know, I was super nervous about it, but.

So, I don't know, I don't think anyone is more harder than the other.

But, you know, plugging at night is definitely more difficult, especially if you're on night vision goggles and you're in the weather and the tanker's in a turn, right.

Like at the end of the day, it's just flying formation because once you plug, getting in is the hard part, so to speak.

Once you get in now, you're just flying formation, right.

And, and it becomes a little bit easier.

Unless it's a KC135, which is a little bit harder to do because you have to actively manage your plug in the basket the whole time.

But interesting.

That's a whole nother can of worms.

We'll have to.

I wish we could phone call or like patch in Leland right now.

Leland is another guy who is in training and he, he was my training partner and he, we, we did the 737 training together and then he dipped and now he's learning how to fly tanker and he'll be back soon.

But he would probably tell us that he has a harder.

For sure.

Yeah.

I mean that, you know, they've got to be where they have to be at a certain time, right, for everybody to go get fuel.

And you know, somebody without experience would.

Be like, oh, you just sit there.

And turn circles in the sky.

It's like, I'm sure there's more going on than that.

You know what I mean?

They're managing all that fuel in the airplane to make sure everybody gets the right amount of gas.

Like, I'm sure there's a lot to it, so.

Right.

I want to make a joke about how he's.

I wanted to say he's the first Amish pilot in the Air Force.

Oh, yeah.

But only Leland would laugh at that.

So that stays on the podcast.

Just know it's just for Leland and Mike.

All right, nice three person group chat.

Yeah, always fun.

All right, so we are making our transition to 121 world.

You finally realize like, all right, this is cool.

Done it for 11 years.

Time to.

To see what the real world.

I don't say real world, but time to see what the civilian world is like.

What was.

Was there a lot of anxiety about kind of moving in be like, all right, I'm a fighter pilot, like, getting into a crude environment, CRM, you know, dealing with much more personalities.

Was that anxiety kind of drifting for you at all or were you kind of just like, I can do it, it'll be fine?

No, I was definitely humbled by the whole experience.

Not from a crew resource management or CRM standpoint, but from a, like, learning that world, the 121 world and how they operate.

And I mean, learning a new airplane too.

Like, it was, it was really challenging from a CRM standpoint.

Fighter guys get a bad rap because they're like, and I'm not even a fighter guy.

I'm a growler guy.

Right.

Like, I got to put that out there because all the VFA dudes will get mad.

Yeah.

You know, they get a bad rap when we show up in training and they're like, oh, these, you know, these jet guys, like, they don't know anything about CRM.

We got to teach them.

It's like, I think, I don't think that's true at all.

You know, anytime you're going up, anywhere you go, you have a wingman.

So not only are you flying your airplane, but in some scenarios, like you're helping the guy fly his airplane.

So, like, the communication piece has to be there.

Like the mission analysis piece has to be there.

The assertiveness has to be there.

Like all of those same things that we talk about when we talk about CRM you are doing in another airplane or sometimes three or four airplanes so for me, I think going into that a multi crew concept was not a challenge.

It was not difficult to communicate and maybe get my point across or ask a question or maybe assert something, you know, it wasn't.

I didn't see that as a challenge.

I saw learning the airplane and doing it the 121way as a bigger challenge because there was a brief.

For a brief amount of time, I'm like, it's just taking off and landing.

It's just going from point A to point B.

Like, it's not going to be difficult.

But the learning curve was steep.

And I was humbled, as you know, because we had multiple breakfast and dinner talks about it.

I was like, man, this is.

This is like a lot harder than I thought it was going to be.

You know what I mean?

And there's this like, weird concept in the military world as you're transitioning out because you're talking to all your buddies.

Hey, you know, how is it?

Like, oh, it's great.

You know, it's.

You got all this time off.

It's easy, man.

Like.

But those guys have been out of training for a couple years and they forgot, I think, so.

It was challenging, man.

It was really hard to do.

Yeah, I thought it was really interesting.

You know, everyone's like, dude, training is so easy.

They hold your hand.

But in the moment itself, like, looking back on it, it really wasn't.

I don't think any.

There was anything really difficult, right?

But like, in the moment, definitely felt the stress of training and definitely was like, oh, yeah.

I keep saying it's easy, but, like, I feel like I kind of suck right now.

Like, this feels way harder than they're.

Letting on because it was so new.

It was so new.

Like, the way you talk on the radio, like, was so.

The way you manipulate the system, the way you Flight plan, like, all that stuff was brand new.

Like, they were.

Took our first couple, not the sims.

But the smaller, you know, the gfs or.

Yeah, yeah, they, you know, I was.

And I had a first officer as my partner, so just like you did.

And I was sitting in the left seat.

And they're like, all right, go ahead and get the conversation going with the ground personnel.

What?

Like, what do you mean?

He's like, are you gonna call for.

Like, you're gonna talk to them about pushing you guys back?

I'm like, dude, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Like, is it a frequency?

He's like, no, it's on this panel.

You know, you press this button and there's a head sat down there, and I was, like, blown away.

Right.

Like, I didn't know.

So it was just different, you know, and it was just something.

And I'm still.

It's going to take me forever to.

To.

To learn it, you know, I'm still learning.

Every single day I go out there, I learn something new, which is aviation, but, like, you know.

Yeah.

The ramp procedures in particular were the toughest.

Not necessarily the toughest, but, like, I had to think the most about because I was.

So far.

I've never done ramp stuff before.

I've never done, like you said, talking through that.

And we're fofo.

You of had to do some of the captain stuff.

Obviously, they don't expect you to do all of it, but keep the flow going is what they always said.

Yeah.

And it's like, I don't know.

And they're like, all right, what's the captain going to do?

And you're like, no clue, man.

I'm trying to learn my stuff over here, you know, I don't know.

But it all worked out.

It was.

It was great training.

It was.

It was fun to go through with friends and to kind of see each person progress.

Like, I remember having conversations you.

And you're just like, dude, this whole, like.

Like this whole section right here, it's like, I can do everything else, but, like, this.

I don't know.

Yeah.

And it was good to see people.

This sounds terrible.

Struggling as well, because you get out of those sims and you're like, that was awful.

That was the worst sim.

I never had a sim experience like that in the military ever.

I was messing everything up.

Like, that was awful.

And then, you know, you talk to other guys, you're like, yeah, I did the same thing.

You're like, all right, well, I guess we're kind of learning all this stuff together.

You know, it was funny because we were a day ahead of you, Right.

So we would always text you, like, oh, dude, wait till day five.

Wait till tomorrow.

I'm glad.

I'm glad I had you guys in front of me because I kind of had some gouge on what to expect.

But, man, doing that without kind of a.

A tight little group would be tough.

Yeah, it'd be really tough.

Just as, like, a social outlet and everything and just, like, keeping your sanity in general, like, it'll be tough.

Yeah.

When you were applying to places, did you have a support system coming out of the military?

Did you lean on your friends in the military?

They've done this before, or were you kind of like, hey, I live in this part of the country.

Like, I really just want this one airline.

Or you're like, boom, apply to everyone who's gonna hire me.

So my active duty job was in Texas, so there's a ton of United guys because they work out of Houston.

They're super close because I was in South Texas, so there was a lot of that.

So I had access, which is unfortunate for.

From the reserve side because the active duty component and the reserve component kind of fly together.

So there's a lot of guys and girls that had 121 experience that were already doing it.

So for the application process, I felt actually pretty good about it because I had so many resources.

As far as where I decided to go, it was strictly location based for me.

Like, I knew I wanted to go to this part of the country because that's where I'm from.

And everything else is gravy.

Like, you know, everything else will kind of like work itself out.

But it was nice to have all those resources for resumes and letters of rec and all that stuff coming out of the military, for sure.

Did you have multiple interviews and multiple offers, or was it just like one and done?

Yeah, I had two interviews and two offers, and I kind of stopped right there because I got what I wanted.

Yeah.

And I was like, yeah, you know, I.

And there was other people that interviewed everywhere and had four CJOs.

You know, I don't know if this is true, but this was my mindset.

It's like, well, if I tell three of those people no.

Am I going to be turned away if for whatever reason I don't like where I'm going and I have to now go back to that other company that I told no, you know, like, would that be.

Oh, like, is that gonna look bad?

So.

And I knew where I wanted to go, so, like, why would I go anywhere different?

I don't know.

People may think that's dumb, but, like, that's what that was my mentality.

I feel like people do it all the time, though, right?

Like, you hear people like, yeah, I got the cj, the cjo.

I haven't told this other place no yet.

Yeah, I'm here in class and I'm seeing how it goes.

Or it's like, okay, good for you.

Like, you play your game, you do what you need to do to make it work.

I think some people treated them like trophies, like little, little ribbons.

And I'm like, all right, that's cool, man.

You know, there's A bunch of guys, they're like, oh, I got four Ch.

Four Ch.

Four CJOs.

I'm like, okay, I had one.

Cool.

Yeah, like, you know, good for you, bro.

Delta never called me back, so I wasn't cool enough.

I knew just for location.

Right.

Like, quality of life with my family.

That's where I wanted to be, and that's what I ran with.

Yeah.

I'm the similar.

Similar boat right there.

Living in North Carolina.

Everyone can figure it out.

I've already said it before, but, like, just the.

The ability to eventually drive to where I need to go is just.

Just makes so much more sense.

And it's the perfect place.

And I will say all the people I've ever dealt with have been great.

Except for you.

No, I'm just kidding.

Including you and Leland.

And the support system that was there was amazing.

And just flying in the line's been good too.

Like, all the people have been great, and it's been a great experience.

So shout out to our airline if they're listening to this.

Yeah, definitely.

It's.

It's been great.

And yeah, you know, one.

One piece of advice I got from some of the reserve guys was commute to one.

So if you can.

And I commute to my reserve job and I drive to work for my airline.

Yeah.

Doing both.

Commuting to both is rough just based on people that I've talked to in the past.

So that was also on my mind too.

It's like, well, I don't want to commute to both.

I want to drive to at least one.

So that played a factor as well.

Yeah.

How has someone that has been in the military, you kind of had like, three different lives, right?

Like, you had pre military, military military and post military.

And granted, you're still in the reserves, but, like, you're back into the civilian world.

Right.

Like, you're doing it again.

You're having the kind of experience, but with your wife and you have two kids.

How has the transition been to the airline world?

Has it been kind of stressful for you guys?

Has the schedule been tough?

Being that we're both junior?

There was a hiring freeze.

It hasn't been ideal necessarily for schedule wise, but how has that been?

Because a lot of times I feel like that kind of gets passed over.

Everyone just says, like, oh, yeah, like, you're gonna make so much money eventually.

You're gonna have so much time off eventually, and you just kind of forget about.

Well, in the meantime, like, you keep saying eventually, but, like, what is that?

Like a Year is that dude, like, how long is that gonna be?

So talk a little about like just in.

Just life with, with the.

With two young kids and a wife.

Yeah, my wife and I are terrible at planning because we moved, had our second kid and started technically two new jobs all within like two months.

So when you started training, you had like a, like a two week old or like a, like.

Yeah.

And that's in the military.

That's like common.

It's like, yeah, well, but people, I told people that and they're like, what are you doing?

Why are you killing yourself?

So it's poor planning on our part, but the, the time away from home, I think my family is used to.

That's a bad word.

They understand it.

You never really get used to it.

I was gone a lot in the military, but I didn't have kids at the time because I had my son at the tail end of my career where I wasn't gone as much as I was.

I was still working every day.

I was still gone 12, 13, 14 hours a day.

But what's different about it is now that when I'm home, when I'm not working with the airlines and I'm obviously not new in my reserve stuff, I'm like home all day.

Like, I don't get text messages, I don't get emails.

I don't have to follow up with anybody about anything.

I don't have to join a teams meeting or whatever the heck it is.

I can just be at home, which is like, great.

It's awesome.

Like, I can take my son to school.

I wouldn't have been able to do that and pick him up from school.

It sounds dumb, but it's the best.

Yeah, it's, you know, or, you know, skip school one day and we go to the beach.

Right?

Like, yeah, that's what I enjoy about it.

I mean, is the op tempo, I would say, is similar.

As busy as it was in the military, transitioning into the airlines.

I mean, you, me and you, we've talked about it, are super busy at the moment because we're new and that's part of the job and I get it and that's fine.

So the tempo is similar.

But when I'm home, like, I can throw my phone and my iPad, like in the garbage and it doesn't matter because.

Doesn't matter at all.

It doesn't matter.

So that's, that's something that I've really enjoyed up to this point.

Yeah.

So now you are.

Let's say we're almost done with our probation year, so we guess we still could get fired.

But as someone who has, I will say, quote, unquote, with some quotations, we have successfully entered the 121 world.

You know, it's kind of like the last stop really.

As a pilot, like, it's kind of like what your career, everyone looks up to, getting to, you know, the major, to a legacy airline.

Looking back on your career, do you have any kind of like regrets or anything that you wish you had done?

Do you wish you would have left active duty earlier?

Do you wish you would have come here earlier?

Like, kind of what?

Talk me through that a little bit.

I think I left at the right time.

I think there comes a point in my opinion in the military where you've kind of done all you can, not all you can do.

I had experienced, I think all that I could experience, which is.

Sounds bad, right?

Because some people are like, yeah, you know, I served my country for 20 years and that's, that's all good and great.

I did 11 years and I felt like I had done my job and my duty and it was time to do something different.

I think, I think, and I heard this somewhere.

I can't steal it, or I should, I'm stealing it from somebody else.

Is like, you are kind of like meant to think that the military is like the eight.

Like, it is the best it will ever get.

Your time in the military, like, that is who you are.

That's as good as it's ever gonna get.

After you get out, it's all downhill.

Don't even think about it.

Like, you gotta do it.

You gotta do 20 years and, and you got to retire and that's how you're going to, like, you know, that's how you're going to be remembered, which I don't really agree with.

Like, you know, there's so many different chapters in your book, you know, that you can open up.

So I think I left at the right time.

And for me personally, it was all about my family too.

Like, I couldn't.

Well, I would have been told to do but a nine month deployment with two kids at home, like, guys do it.

People do it all the time, right?

Like, and it's, it's commonplace in the military, but I didn't want to do that, right?

And I wanted to get out.

And I left the growler because of that.

Like, I left the Pacific Northwest to come down to an instructor tour in Texas because the ability to kind of transition out after you're done with that tour is A little bit easier than it is if I would have stayed flying the Growler.

So, you know, I made some decisions to start getting out the door and get my foot out the door to do something else.

The airlines made sense, because it's like, well, what else am I going to do?

I've spent 11 years flying, and I think that's what I want to continue to do.

So that seemed like the right decision.

It's not like I ever had this dream of becoming an airline pilot.

You know what I mean?

It's just.

It's.

I mean, you didn't know you wanted.

To find until your senior year, right?

Well, exactly.

You know, I've kind of always just.

I've kind of thought about things and done them as they've come up, because I think it's silly to be like, well, 10 years from now, I'm doing this.

It's like, your plans change.

Like, I've had two kids.

You know what I mean?

Like, what if I didn't have kids?

Would I have stayed in?

I don't know.

Maybe.

So, yeah, I forgot what your original.

Question was, but just what?

Do you have any regrets in your career?

Do you, like, do you wish you would have left earlier, but you pretty much answered, that's right?

Ye.

No, I don't think so.

I think I left at the right time.

That's good, dude.

Yeah.

And, like, you know, I'm still in the reserve, still doing that and trying to get to 20 years doing that.

So get that retirement, right.

Yeah.

Yeah, we'll see.

Well, dude, that's all I got for you, man.

I appreciate you coming on.

It was a good time.

I think that it.

It didn't bomb.

Like, we were afraid it was going to, you know, I did.

I wasn't worried.

You were worried.

I wasn't worried either.

I knew it was going to be good.

If anything, we would just make fun of Leland the whole time.

So I hope he listens, and I hope he's super jealous that he wasn't on.

Should I never have him on now.

Like, there's just gonna be a thing where Leland never comes on the podcast.

Don't let him ever.

I don't think he's alive.

I'll put it up to vote.

We'll put it out there.

Be like, all right, should Leland ever come on the podcast, I'll put a story on and click yes or no.

And Leland, your fate is not in your hands.

I apologize.

Yeah, I'll call him every 20 minutes to shake it up a little bit.

All Right, dude.

Well, hey, I appreciate you coming on.

It's been a while.

It's almost been what, six months since we.

We've seen each other when we hung out every single day for.

For six weeks it feels like.

But we'll have to meet back up.

The group chat's always going off, which is great.

But maybe I'll come down to Miami.

You're moving in soon to a new house, living the airline life.

So yeah, I'm gonna have to come down and meet up, man.

But I appreciate you coming on and I wish you the best and I hope you can hang out with your kids and have some fun.

No sweat.

Thanks, Justin.

I appreciate it.

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