Huda and Sahil [00:00:07] Hi, everyone, and welcome to The Mind Behind It. My name is Huda and I am Sahil.

Tasneem Chopra [00:00:15] My name is Dustin Chopra. I was born in Kenya, in Nairobi. I'm about fifth generation East African born of Indian heritage, North Indian, Gujrat but I speak really bad Gujrati, so don't ask. I've been in Australia since I was four. I grew up in country Victoria in a town called Bendigo, sort of a very parochial times. It was a very- I was like the brown pea in the white pod all my childhood, all my high school. Moved to Melbourne thankfully, in my teens, because I was just yearning to be in the cosmopolitan centre of Australia and that's how I saw it at the time, which I loved. And I think all these things of country, Victoria, Indian background, African born, Muslim upbringing, they just kind geared me towards a career and an interest in diversity. And I think that's informed my interest in anthropology and sociology and psychology, which I studied as an undergrad, and then I worked in development sector for some time. I've always worked in community welfare as well, sometimes voluntarily, sometimes in a paid capacity. I think over the last 15 years I've sort of cemented a consultancy in diversity, equity, inclusion, which is a new term. People didn't understand when I tell them I was a cross-cultural consultant, that was too much for them. But essentially what I do is I work in the space of identity, belonging, racism, interrogating structures of power, who has it, who doesn't, how to be more equitable in the way that we lead inclusively, especially in leadership. So having grown up in the late 70s and 80s in Australia, it should look very different the way that we lead, the way that we manage to 2021. I don't think the needle has shifted significantly when it comes to who populates leadership and who makes those decisions. So I think I'm really motivated by wanting to up the ante on that and say No and not apologise for wanting to make a change and not edging around it gingerly, but actually sort of saying 'you need to be held up' you need to be held accountable for the fact that you're not representative. The fact that you don't include people that you're actually setting out to serve and represent. If they're not part of your Decision-Making table, you're going to miss the mark. I always say this that we don't like capacity. We don't lack skill. You just lack opportunity and platform about what those platforms should be and how we do have the talent to populate those platforms and are just reinventing the pathway so that they don't block access really.

Sahil Saluja [00:02:20] And the one thing people don't know about you,

Tasneem Chopra [00:02:22] I'm a karaoke diehard. I'm serious. If you're going to karaoke with me, sing properly. We're doing it.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:02:28] I can do this with you. Can we do this together because I actually sing pretty well.

Sahil Saluja [00:02:32] That's the first time you've admitted it.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:02:33] Just karoke level singing, though I wouldn't go as far as, like going on Australian Idol and shit. Like I couldn't do that.

Tasneem Chopra [00:02:40] I mean you never know. I mean, I grew up, I mean, as I said in Bendigo in a country town. But there was a sizeable and busy little Indian community at the time. And I come from a family of three daughters and we were the Chopra sisters. We were like an act. And I knew all the Pakeeza songs. I knew all the old Bollywood songs, and we would sing and dance.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:03:03] That's pretty cool.

Tasneem Chopra [00:03:09] Indian songs would drive me crazy as a child, but then I joined the choir at school and musicals and stuff, so I've always loved it.

Sahil Saluja [00:03:15] Have you changed your opinion about the Bollywood movies you used to like? Because we were watching a Bollywood movie and I actually went to Bombay to work in Bollywood for three years because I was born and brought up in India and I was obsessed by some of the movies are like a shocking in terms of what they say about equality, what they say about women in general.

Tasneem Chopra [00:03:35] Yeah, sexism is rich.

Sahil Saluja [00:03:37] I used to love this shit.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:03:39] Yeah. Basically, just to give you a general gist, I have Pakistani parents. I grew up in Australia, was born here. The only language at the time I even knew was the one we speak at home, which is memory, which is like a mix of Gujarati. And Sindhi, but I did learn Hindi Urdu, which is through watching movies growing up. Yes. With my mother. So I can speak it broken, but I understand it very clearly. And so Sahil and I were talking and I was like, oh, I love this movie. I used to love this movie, I used to love this song. And we were sharing it all. We were like, let's have a Bollywood movie night. And so we decided to watch one of our ultimate favourites-

Sahil Saluja [00:04:12] Main Hoon Na

Huda Cadekiwala [00:04:14] When we watched it we're like, this is atrocious. At the time, we were like, oh my God, this is the best thing that ever happened. But then you grow up and you're like-

Tasneem Chopra [00:04:21] Wisdom of hindsight hey.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:04:25] 100%. we're like this is bad

Sahil Saluja [00:04:26] And like the whole movie, one of the premises of the movie is that this girl who's very tomboyish, is trying to get with this guy who's like the popular jock and Shah Rukh Khan comes into the college and tells her, you don't need to change foranyone.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:04:37] Yeah.

Sahil Saluja [00:04:38] Except ten minutes later in the movie, she's completely changed. She's had a makeover and the guy's falling in love with her.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:04:43] But also he drives her to it because she's crying over him, going, he doesn't like me. And then he's like, oh, I've got just the right person for you. And he sends her off to this very beautiful feminine-

Sahil Saluja [00:04:53] 100%

Huda Cadekiwala [00:04:54] He sends her off to her and tells her, can you help her out? And then the next clip, she's come out looking like a feminine.

Tasneem Chopra [00:05:00] It's like Grease.

Sahil Saluja [00:05:00] Yeah. Oh, my God. It's like Grease

Tasneem Chopra [00:05:05] You've just described the Grease plot to me now.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:05:08] Yes.

Tasneem Chopra [00:05:09] Yeah.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:05:10] And then they start like and then he finally notices her. Now we look at it and we're like, hang on a minute, like at the time I thought that was so cool, and now I'm like that's like wrong.

Sahil Saluja [00:05:19] Not cool. That's definitely wrong.

Tasneem Chopra [00:05:23] And people say is about the old classics even. You need to enjoy them for the context in which they were made. I mean, I can remember some Indian films. It was Vidatha with Amitabh and I've probably watched it a 100 times. And prior to that, there was the Pakeeza stuff. I loved the music from the old style. I loved the classical music. I still do. I still love that stuff. But I just can't get into the bollywood stuff.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:05:42] I don't watch any new Bollywood movies.

Tasneem Chopra [00:05:44] I don't watch Bollywood now because I can't handle the songs. And if they have songs I can't watch it. So if it's just a film and some of the films are fantastic, some of them are really, really edgy. I mean, the one that comes to mind is Pink.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:05:58] Oh, yeah.

Sahil Saluja [00:05:59] Yeah with Amitabh

Tasneem Chopra [00:06:00] That was just about time. Right. Things like that. That was really, really good. And it was so provocative and on point and challenging notions, all the tricks of sexism that so much of the culture upholds. And they did it with some leading actors, obviously. So to have you know, you've got Amitabh on a film like that means people got to watch it. Yeah, that was either clever marketing or good to see that mindset is actually permeating.

Sahil Saluja [00:06:23] Actually, that's a really good point Tasneem. So I was about to do a show at the Arts centre next week called Them.

Tasneem Chopra [00:06:30] Yeah, I've seen it advertised. It's not Michelle Law no? Who is it?

Sahil Saluja [00:06:33] By this amazing writer, Samah Sabawi.

Tasneem Chopra [00:06:36] Oh yeah. Yeah, related to Tales of the Sea.

Sahil Saluja [00:06:38] So this is her next production Them, which was completely sold out. And we had a show in Narre Warren yesterday and we got to know at 4 o'clock.

Tasneem Chopra [00:06:46] At the Bunjil Theatre or something? Bunjil place?

Sahil Saluja [00:06:50] Yeah Bunjil place. It got cancelled. But we were having a conversation because the show was based in not specifically Syria, but that's where Samah kind of got her inspiration from. We were talking about the movie American Sniper. Because you referred to Pink, I was like Bradley Cooper really had a choice to make at that point, whether that story needed to be told and what that communicates to the rest of the world, that this guy has PTSD because he was lauded for killing so many people using a sniper weapon which nobody could compete against. So is that really a story that you wanted to tell? And it really pisses me off because people in that position of power can choose to make the content that's needed, which Amitabh did. And maybe it's really smart marketing as well. But having a big name like that automatically can help that same message be spread across the wider community that otherwise won't be able to. You're talking about power structures, especially in media. It's still so men-oriented.

Tasneem Chopra [00:07:43] It is very much through a male gaze. And in speaking of that, the Bradley Cooper thing, I just don't watch his films anymore, if I do, I don't like I'm very critical. I'm hypercritical and it's a choice. You know, no one's putting a gun, literally, excuse the pun, to his head. He had the option to decline that and but he didn't. And it's now stuck.

Sahil Saluja [00:08:00] Exactly. So two questions. One is, what do you think or what do you define as the kind of multiculturalism that you would want to see and if you have seen it in any of the parts of the world? Second question is day before when we were coming back to Melbourne, we did a show in Shepparton. I saw an article on the front page of the Age saying that it was an Islamic college, Islamic school where the virus was forming a cluster again. And I thought if it was any other school, it would just be called the Melbourne School or Melbourne College. But they did mention the Islamic college again. And I thought that automatically just divided people. How do you see these big media conglomerates like The Age and Sydney Morning Herald? How do you think the narrative has changed or not changed? Because I feel it's still the same and well, what's the best way forward with, you know, encouraging these big corporations to change?

Huda Cadekiwala [00:08:52] To change the dialogue?

Tasneem Chopra [00:08:54] I think there are really big, big questions. If I can just remember the first question, which is who does multiculturalism really well? And my mind keeps to I was in Toronto and I noticed, like, the street signs in downtown would often be in like several different languages when it came to directing you to particular site, if it was botanic gardens or to the museum or to the university or the welcome sign, they're all like multilingual. You had Punjabi, you had English, you had French, you had Arabic. a) it's ace for tourists if nothing else. And that was also reflecting that these are our major communities that we represent. And so we care about that. We want them to know where they're going. We care about your well being. That was really impressive. London to me it was it's just the presence of diversity when you flick on your screen and you see that from the local news, who are the reporters? Who makes up the talent on your sitcom? Everything from, you know, 'Men like Mobeen' moving right through to some of the panels, the comedy. There's so much more opportunity. And maybe that's also to do with the fact that South Asians in the UK have been there for much longer in this country as well. So we're kind of a much raw entity in terms of how we navigate multiculturalism than Europe and than the UK and compared to the US. We are a lot newer. But having said that, even though we are new, I think our communities haven't gone through as much of upheaval as the other communities have. You know, the West Indians and the South Asians and blacks, I mean, they've endured such vile racism for centuries, much more than what we have. We still have it here first and foremost, obviously, the indigenous communities. And then, yes, we do have it here and this sort of segues into your next question, the media has certainly amplified the difference of minority communities when it serves them to do so. It rates high to talk about a black face or brown face or a turban man or a hijabed woman because it's different. You know, I think that's the bottom line. If it bleeds, it leads kind of story. And if you extract that mentality to the way that you profile communities, an average Joe's face is going to be a lot less exciting and have less traction. And it's not going to garner an emotional reaction. Unless it is of sympathy then it will. But if it's one of fear, it's got to be someone that you can't connect with. You can be scared of a brown face because there's no centre of gravity between the two of you. But with a white face, you want to empathise with white tears. It's a very crude formula. I think some certainly play up to it. And I'm not ashamed to say that Sky News comes on top of that list when I think about their culpability in the kind of news that they perpetuate. And the storylines and the headlines is all very much race baited. I think the rest of the media is doing better than it did, but not enough in the fact that you're reading an Islamic college title when they could have gone with Al-Taqwa College but they went with Islamic college. Bacchus Marsh is a grammar school, but they didn't call it the Anglican school. So, yes, it can pick and choose. And it is like a Bradley Cooper scenario. Again, because they have a choice. They have a choice about which decision they want to use in their title. I mean, I was watching a Dan Andrews presser yesterday in real time on Facebook. And I think when he mentioned Al Taqwa college, he didn't mention Islamic, but in the comments-

Sahil Saluja [00:11:57] I heard that.

Tasneem Chopra [00:12:00] The comments said it was an islamic college and I'm like, wow, that was that was that didn't take long. And suddenly there it started. And that was I mean, that was on Facebook and that was at ABC Melbourne. I didn't even check what the commercial stations were doing.

Sahil Saluja [00:12:12] You said news story. Is that an oxymoron? Should news be a story?

Tasneem Chopra [00:12:18] I think in this day and age, it's become that way now. I mean, when your grab is 140 characters, you're literally at the mercy of which copyeditor, can make the most banal and boring thing something exciting. And that means compromising the truth. And often that's the first thing to be lost in a story. The nuance is the truth because you've only got limited characters. So we'll go with something scary, something impacting. Take out the fact that at the end of the day, they weren't actually a carrier, they just contracted it. And that's irrelevant because they actually have that and it should focus on how they got it. It becomes a story and not a report.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:12:51] And that's something that's similar to the show that we were watching. What was it called?

Sahil Saluja [00:12:56] It was on at the MTC called the 'Lifespan of a fact'. It was about this child who jumped from the Stratosphere Hotel in Las Vegas from the top of the building and this essayist who was writing an essay on it. But he wasn't reporting the actual facts: instead of thirty eight seconds that it took the person to fall, he changed it to 40 because it sounded better. So he took creative liberty to make it sound like an article that would sell.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:13:20] They got like a fact checker

Sahil Saluja [00:13:22] But the news company that's actually publishing the article is also under financial pressure because newspapers aren't selling. So they decide to publish this guy's article. But they also get a fact checker who's actually really honest about his job. And he's a twenty four year old who's really excited and enthusiastic.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:13:39] And naive.

Tasneem Chopra [00:13:40] Yeah, well, that's the thing. You bring a fact checker to check your facts and they can uncover all the inadequacies and shortcomings in your report. But if you don't action those, you can still say to the people we've had a fact checker.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:13:52] And I think that's what the whole premise was about, really. It was to show that, you know, these things are always a part of every story you read. And I think the reason it was kind of put together was to say, don't believe everything you read. You know, there's always going to be a bit of -.

Tasneem Chopra [00:14:08] Liberty.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:14:08] Yes. Something we talked about earlier, which I think would be worthwhile touching on just because, you know, we're on the topic of it. I wanted to actually talk about Priyanka Chopra.

Tasneem Chopra [00:14:17] She has a significant posting within the UN and it's something to do with goodwill or peace. And I thought, interesting choice. What are the qualifiers in a role like that? You know, she's been Miss World. I mean, okay. Does that mean she has a humanitarian profile? Is that what she is? No, she's an actress. This is just one of one of the one of the Bollywood ones. But she got into America. She got her foot through the door in the US, in the same way that maybe someone comparable like Archie Punjabi. So I thought, okay, Archie's made it in the UK and Priyanka is penetrating the US market. OK, that's their own thing that's fine. Now, when she took on the US role and I know there was a lot of people who either love or hate her, Priyanka, it's one or the other. Then she married one of the Jonas Brothers and that was that was an interesting move. And media went crazy when that happened. But again, I didn't really know that much about her. However, when the Kashmiri incursion occurred over two years ago now, and it was very clear that the Indian government just changed rule overnight that allowed their forces to enter the area and suddenly the Kashmiris had no rights and they were cut off from the world. And there was all this going on and it was a directive of the Prime Minister Modi at the time. I believe there was a online video of a forum where, Priyanka was speaking, and an audience member brought up saying you call yourself an ambassador of human rights and you're very quick to defend and support and applaud, given it was said by the prime minister of India, given what has just recently happened. She called her out on it and she was like, oh, you're mixing up my word. You're being so dramatic. But she didn't detract from the fact that if she's in a position of human rights and representation, she has a responsibility to call it out. But she wouldn't call it.

Sahil Saluja [00:15:58] So she's a UNICEF goodwill ambassador.

Tasneem Chopra [00:16:01] UNICEF, not U.N. sorry. To be at that level, to be an ambassador of an organisation of international repute. And you do have an obligation to call out human rights issues. But she shied away. She wouldn't do it. She wouldn't touch it. She wouldn't go near it. And rather than use her platform as a woman of colour from the Indian region to call for human rights abuses, she did nothing and she minimised it. She gaslighted the girl thinking, oh, what a drama queen. Yeah, then I was like really that's what you're going use as your defence in this situation. And and then people were booing the girl and say, oh, we love you, Priya. You can see that. You can see that. And again, maybe younger people who are just caught up in the allure of it's Priyanka, though, don't see that.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:17:00] I find that with celebrities, especially ones like her, her reputation as being someone who's obviously found it really difficult, like there's been hardships for her to get into American Hollywood. And there's so much stigma right. Like if you think about how much stigma is attached to being a Bollywood actor or actress, like with the Western cultures, there's a big divide there. And so for her to actually make it into Hollywood is a big deal for her. And she almost wants to keep that reputation without screwing it up. So she wants to be able to have her foot in both doors.

Tasneem Chopra [00:17:33] Yes, I think you're right, because she doesn't want to mess it up by saying the wrong thing, even if the wrong thing can be the right thing to do.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:17:40] Exactly. But I think that if your values aren't aligned, then it's never going to work anyway. Right. Like if your values aren't strong enough and they're not in the right place, you're always going to be that person that's like, you know, what am I doing what for?

Tasneem Chopra [00:17:52] I totally agree. And it's that moral compass. And if you don't activate your moral compass, then you're basically going to be taking on positions that you inherently disagree with. But you'll do it for the sake of money.

Sahil Saluja [00:18:03] I think I want to be the devil's advocate and kind of flip it. Being in this industry it is, you know, penetrating the American, especially Hollywood, not so much the British television and film company, because that's different. And I absolutely agree with you Tasneem that somehow UK TV does it so seamlessly that they have representation, not as a tokenistic thing. They just know how to do it. And I'm a massive fan of UK TV, not a big fan of Hollywood, because I just feel it's a bit over the top. 'Never ever have I ever' like everyone's watching it and it's a great show. But I personally don't relate to it that much because a lot of it is bashing Indian parents and going Indian parents are really hard on us. Indian parents are really strict, blah, blah, blah.

Tasneem Chopra [00:18:46] Tropy.

Sahil Saluja [00:18:47] But how hard is it to not cater to, I guess, the white media moguls and kind of be a celebrity or be an actor in that sort of industry. Like how hard is it to-.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:19:01] Without conforming.

Sahil Saluja [00:19:02] Yeah, without conforming and still having your authentic self. Because I do think Priyanka would have had... Like she would have this backlash no matter what. Yeah. And Tasneem you being a cross-cultural ambassador, like how do not only media companies but even businesses now like how do they deal with that. Like what's the best way for them to go about it without kind of not conforming to the white narrative.

Tasneem Chopra [00:19:26] Yeah, I think it's not a seamless process. I think when you try to maintain or be true to who you are and uphold your values and ideals and cultural norms at the centre of what you want, you can do that. And you can do that but often at the peril of a gig and often at the peril of being understood or being often ostracised within, you know, the in-group which could be work, which could be could be a board, it could be society. And it can be really hard and it can be a very isolating experience. And then when that does happen, you do see some people not, I would say capitulate, but just like compromise, like, you know what I'll change my name if I get around it. It's hard. I've tried but just can't do it. And so you see, people are giving up a little bit here and there. And if you keep chipping away at that, then you can completely reform, and I think the difference between being worn down by the system versus deciding your culture isn't actually is is a liability that you despise. You can become a self-loathing Indian, and it depends on which which way you enter it. I think the difference, though, now is that in 2021 the propbability of being a diverse person in what that industry has increased a lot more. And it may not be in the workplace that you're getting it and it might be on platforms and podcasts like this where you can actually then bounce back.This is not just in my head. This is actually a real thing that we're all going through. And there's so much solidarity in these spaces that I come back to them. I come back to them after I've had like the whitest board experience of the day. And I'm just losing my mind. I just like I just want to make sure there is some logic out there. There are colleagues out there who understand what I'm going through and it gets me through. And I find it so much easier to be me and to be my own self now than it was 20 years ago because of allies and in the way that they manifest. I think that's something which you should know about and you can and you can rely on them and you can leverage that support, even if it's an internal thing. And I mean you seek it out. I mean, I've got a job in the public service now, but a contract short term. And whenever I'm on a zoom call and you see the spokesperson of colour on the suits, like, you know, we nod in this like, hey, how are you doing? And occasionally there will be times when the meeting's off line will catch up like, oh, my God, did you hear what they said? Because we don't have the luxury of being the dominant. We are perpetually the minority. I wear the minority badge with immense pride, because I know that that comes with decades of cultural nuance, expertise, networks, the capacity that they will never have. Where do they want to use that, it is my responsibility to make them realise how valuable that is so that that's part of my job. Right. I do think increasingly employees are realising that if they want to be an employer of choice they need to be much more inclusive of the diverse recruits that are out there, which means making space, which means making room, which means making sure you're not the only brown person in the office. It's going to take a while for us to get there and get it right. But I do think we're in a way and the critical difference, I think, is the allies, the allies on the way, we never had them before.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:22:19] And I mean, I guess going off that, the next question for me would be 'The Hands off my hijab' protests that happened in France, especially when it comes to social media, we're talking about exclusivity a lot more than we ever did. However, there's also on the back of that this France thing happening where they want to ban the hijab. The whole connotation is that we're doing this because women don't actually want to wear the hijab. But how do they truly know that? And I guess, you know, why is it that we have this whole idea that the hijab is such a a non choice situation that women are forced into when there are so many women I know that choose to wear the hijab? In fact, I know women that whose parents are like, I don't want them to wear a hijab but-

Tasneem Chopra [00:22:58] Who wear it despite their families. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sahil Saluja [00:23:00] And, you would Tasneem name because everyone knows that you wear a headscarf as well. Is it a turban?

Tasneem Chopra [00:23:05] It is a turban. It's a manifestation of my head. I've tried all different things. This one stuck more than the others. I have a daughter who doesn't wear hijab. I have no one in my family except for my youngest child wears a hijab. She wears a proper hijab, the proper thing and there is me and then nobody else in my family at all.

Sahil Saluja [00:23:23] Did your daughter decide that she wanted to do it?

Tasneem Chopra [00:23:25] She's very, very strong willed. I can't tell her anything. And she decided from primary school. She went to Islamic primary school. I should put it in context. So that was part of the uniform. And then for high school I put her into like the private school and I said, you know, you don't have to wear it. You can relax. And she's like, No! why would I do that? I want to wear it. Whereas my other daughter went to an Islamic high school, my elder daughter had to wear the hijab. And after school, she she's like, I'm not wearing it, this is not who I am. So I was like, OK, so they're both very, very different. They're both in their 20s now. They're both very sure of who they are and very self-confident.

Sahil Saluja [00:24:00] You have 20 year old daughters?

Tasneem Chopra [00:24:01] Yeah.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:24:02] I would not have picked.

Tasneem Chopra [00:24:06] I'm an auntie.

Sahil Saluja [00:24:06] No, I don't see it. But that's a very good point and thank you for pointing that out. But why is there, especially in Western media, why is there that notion that somehow hijab is a forceful thing for women and women don't have the rights and that's why they're forced to wear a hijab?

Tasneem Chopra [00:24:22] That's the thing, there's no agency in this conversation. Muslim women are the last people actually ask. It's almost as if Muslim women are incapable of making a decision or either they're asked only ever about the headscarf, if they're asked anything at all. Otherwise, the whole debate around identity and dress is being decided for by other Muslim men or the society at large. And that's the whole point. I mean we talk about France. I mean, equality of freedom, liberty and blah, blah, whatever. There's no respecting individual's choice and the fact that the state thinks it needs to be able to decide what freedom means for women and not the woman herself.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:24:55] Which takes away freedom

Tasneem Chopra [00:24:57] It's like the biggest oxymoron. That is exactly the antithesis of what they consider to be freedom of secularity, and that is that you can't decide what you need outside for you. That, to me, is the biggest inherent flaw in that particular logic. And with the debate itself, the fact that you know we have Hollywood and Netflix industries obsessed with, sometimes documentaries on the hijab issue, as if, you know, wearing a scarf or not wearing a scarf will be the difference between radicalisation and not. How then do you define how the New Zealand terrorist was radicalised?

Huda Cadekiwala [00:25:27] Yeah, exactly. And what I find really fascinating about everything is also the connotation that in order to be perceived as a free person, you are wearing less, being a bit more like promiscuous or very sexually deviant. You know, someone who wears less is the most free person, which I find really fascinating because I've never really thought about it until we've had this conversation where you've said idea of freedom is France saying, ok, we're going to make this decision for you all. But it's funny because the one thing that they're removing is more freedom

Tasneem Chopra [00:25:58] Is freedom of choice.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:25:58] Yeah.

Tasneem Chopra [00:26:00] I think when it comes to the bodily autonomy of women, whether it's how we dress or our reproductive cycle, it's constantly been in the purview of states and men, particularly men sitting around tables deciding what we do with our uterus and how we dress like, I'm sorry, that's got nothing to do with anyone but the individual, whether I decide to use birth control, whether I decide to wear the hijab or not hijab or if I have a child or don't have a child, these are my bodily choices and they're being taken out of my hands. They're being politicised, and being commodified and it actually sells, it actually sells. And it goes back to the earlier topic about somebody looks like me and then there is someone who's just like, you know, blonde hair, blue eyes. I'm going to invoke a lot more questions and confusion because I don't look and sound like the norm and therefore you're not sure about me. So the best way to be sure about is to me is to police me.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:26:47] Yeah, just like guess going off the back of that, I think that the biggest problem is now the feminist movement, which there's an idea of what the feminist looks like and appears to be like, and it always comes down to the fact that she's more outspoken, loud, sexualised person. And like I said, look, I don't have anything against that. But that's the connotation now for what a feminist looks like.

Tasneem Chopra [00:27:10] But it depends whose definition of feminism we are talking about.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:27:13] Yeah on social media, that's kind of what you see the most of, which I think is quite problematic as well.

Tasneem Chopra [00:27:18] Yeah. Yeah. I think it'd be problematic taking your cues off influencers. I really do, because it's so much more nuanced. I mean, again, it comes back to how and what informs your opinion of what a feminist is? For me, a feminist is one who sees the full humanity of women.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:27:31] Exactly.

Tasneem Chopra [00:27:31] Like her right to health and education and safety and opportunity the same as everybody else. Wherever they are on the gender binary. That's to me, that's the baseline for humanity. And if feminism means equality, then I'm a feminist. And I've always said that, you know, hey, Justin Trudeau can be a feminist and people just lose their mind, like, how is he a feminist? But he says it, you know, that's what I am. Some of the best men that I've known who've sat with me, white men on boards in suits will tell me that they are feminists and often, you know, the other men will roll their eyes. Like, what? What are you saying? How can you say that? And they say that I accept the full humanity of women.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:28:05] 100 percent.

Sahil Saluja [00:28:06] And something that you've done is by giving this definition of feminism, you haven't bashed men which I find it's an interesting time to be a man. It's a very interesting time to navigate your way as a man, because we are learning along the way that we didn't have education. All our education about being a man came from other men, never came from from a woman.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:28:27] And that too from white men.

Sahil Saluja [00:28:28] Yeah. And my mother is she is the reason I'm here today. So for me, I see women in the same light as I see my mother and she's everything to me. Then I was called a pussy because I was slightly sensitive, I wasn't the guy picking up women. It's so funny, I overheard this conversation with a bunch of corporate dudes and we were all in a car. We had been drinking. And all these guys were talking about is, you know, how that woman dresses like that. And, you know, it'd be great to get with her. And I was like, Jesus Christ. I don't I don't think, like, that. Is there's something wrong with me or is this the general conversation that happens a lot of time? Because these were the average corporate nine to five guys. And I thought, if you don't fit into that, you're considered too sensitive or you are a man who maybe cares too much. And I don't call myself a feminist because I don't feel like I have to define it for the women themselves. They have to define it for themselves. But I think by saying that by giving that definition of a feminist, it actually reduces male bashing or blaming other communities.

Tasneem Chopra [00:29:24] I think it throws a lens back onto the other, though, because I'm asking everyone else to see the full humanity of women because I see it. I see the fact that I want to live and work and and be educated and have a job and all those securities. But do you see it? So for me, feminism is about you seeing that in me. So we need to bring it back not just to you, not just to men. It's about throwing it back to women, into the community, within the Muslim community, within the main community and stuff. I mean, even and you would Huda that even within the Muslim community, when you tell people your feminist, they think, oh, it's such a Western concept and it's not Islam.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:30:00] it actually is.

Tasneem Chopra [00:30:01] And I see no conflict between saying I'm a Muslim and a feminist at all. In fact, I actually to me, if I want to get really, you know, honest about it, I can't be a Muslim without being a feminist because I notice my humanity, I need to see my humanity. I need my son to be able to see that as well, and that's like a work in progress.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:30:18] Yeah, I agree with you. And I think also another thing real quick to just add on to that. I think sometimes I find women are the worst feminists. They're the antifeminist.

Tasneem Chopra [00:30:27] Yeah.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:30:28] I know. I know it sounds silly, but I find that women talk about this whole game of all women supporting women. But then a lot of the time you'll go and work somewhere and you'll find a lot of the time women are bashing each other.

Tasneem Chopra [00:30:40] I think on that overwhelmingly the biggest obstacle to women's achieving greater success is actually the patriarchy. But the biggest disappointment is women who pull the ladder off once they make it. Yes. And that's the disappointment. That is a big disappointment because the patriarchy is we know it's disappointing. Because it was structured in a way to keep us as outliers. But when women, the few women that do make it sometimes will be the ones to say, well, I've made it. See you later. That's what breaks me.

Sahil Saluja [00:31:11] Fantastic point.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:31:12] And that's exactly right. Yes. You've put it very well and eloquently as compared to what I was trying to say.

Sahil Saluja [00:31:21] That's why she said we couldn't afford her.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:31:23] Yes. She's like I know my worth.

Sahil Saluja [00:31:29] I get upset the most when people are disappointed with me rather than angry with me.

Tasneem Chopra [00:31:35] That's what they say - the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:31:38] Oh, yeah, that's true.

Tasneem Chopra [00:31:40] It's like Ow! well. It's like I'm invisible to you. I can't see you.

Sahil Saluja [00:31:51] That does bring up an interesting point though. I see this a lot in especially white females and white women is a lot of the times they kind of take offence to things that they personally wouldn't take offence to. A lot of this narrative actually comes from, especially with wearing the hijab. And a lot of white women would say, well, we are taking away their liberties. They should be treated equally. And that's why the hijab is is a sign of oppression rather than choice. And it brings to my question about who gets to take offence, because I feel like everyone loves taking offence these days. And is that the person who has individually experienced something? Are they the ones who should be taking offence? And if you are taking offence on behalf of a community, what's the best way to do that or be a spokesperson for that?

Tasneem Chopra [00:32:34] Yeah, that's a good point. I have a friend who made a comment about it was he was just lamenting some of the wokeness in America in a certain context. He goes, you know, some of these desi kids, they think they're blacker than blacks and they're more Palestinian than the Arabs. And I'm like, oh, gosh you know. It's about respecting everyone's opinion on that issue and speaking for someone, you know, but allowing them to speak. And one of things I always talk about is stop speaking at communities and speak to them or listen to them. And I think when we get so caught up in the 'wokenes' we don't often stop and think about is this actually serving the cause or is it serving me? And if it's serving your likes and your analytics, the dang, you keep doing it right. But suddenly when you interrogate the integrity of your actions and you realise that actually all I've done is promote myself and I've done nothing to shift the needle on the day to day lives of these communities, that's and that's a very self reflexive kind of action to take. It doesn't always happen because people are young and they're excited and they want likes to be popular and they want people to follow them. But I think it comes from someone, maybe someone else, who is saying you need to stop what you're doing and think about the consequences and realise often they don't. They get so caught up in the momentum of it all. That's true. When I think of some of the, you know, campaigns on the Free Palestine movement or Aboriginal deaths in custody, there's been so much good work being done on the ground in supporting certain individuals in these movements. And they've like they've just like taken on the personas

Huda Cadekiwala [00:34:06] Yeah. In a very small way what happens on social media is the fact that we're just sharing stuff. I want to seem like this person, therefore I'm going to share it, because if I share this, people are going to think I'm a good person because I care about this stuff. But really, what are you doing to care about it?

Tasneem Chopra [00:34:22] Yeah.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:34:22] I mean, it's good because it gets exposure. The cause gets exposure, which is important in itself. But something you mentioned, which was really fascinating to me, is the line between free will or freedom of expression and then cultural appropriation. Very blurry.

Tasneem Chopra [00:34:37] Another friend gave me this classic quote, which I'm happy to share, and he said 'the problem with the woke middle class is that they want the culture of the people, but not the people of the culture.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:34:46] Yes, that's very true.

Sahil Saluja [00:34:48] Oh, wow.

Tasneem Chopra [00:34:51] I mean we love the bindis, fuzzy hair and the big bums but just don't move into my neighbourhood.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:34:55] Yes. Because that's just a little bit too far.

Tasneem Chopra [00:35:02] Oh my God. I went to a market, one of these farmer's market things in the south of Melbourne. I was away for weekend. It was 90 percent Anglo.

Sahil Saluja [00:35:13] Mornington?

Tasneem Chopra [00:35:14] Yes. Yeah, they had a henna stall, and I think I took photos but I can't find them now. But basically the henna store was run by two blonde, elderly, middle aged women. And all the photos were of other blonde women with henna by the beach or by by the ocean or by pool. And there was not a desi in site. No mention on the origins of henna or what it was for. And they were doing cornrows and mehndi, and people and people were queuing up. And I was just like I just walked in and my mouth just dropped - appropriation.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:35:47] Yeah, that is literally actually the best way to put appropriation.

Sahil Saluja [00:35:51] I'm glad you mentioned that, because there's there's something that's been eating me up for a couple of days now. And and I have this argument with Huda a lot like when we watch TV shows and what's that TV show? The Superstore?

Huda Cadekiwala [00:36:06] Yeah, Superstore.

Tasneem Chopra [00:36:07] I haven't watched it.

Sahil Saluja [00:36:08] And there's not a single Indian guy in that superstore. And I'm like, Are you kidding me?

Tasneem Chopra [00:36:12] At a drugstore?

Sahil Saluja [00:36:15] And I argue with her.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:36:16] I don't argue, I agree with you.

Sahil Saluja [00:36:17] Yeah, but she says which is a really good point. She says, like, when I come back from work, I want to watch things to relax. Right? Yeah. And I said, yes, but because of that, shows like that continuously get made where there's always an Indian stereotype or a diverse stereotype because that's easier to watch rather than watching a story that might be too close to home, which will make you think and which will make you more uncomfortable. And that's why most of the mainstream money---

Tasneem Chopra [00:36:42] That's what my daughter says as well. She won't watch any of that really heavy shows and stuff.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:36:46] Yes, I. I do watch it. I love that stuff. It's just that when I've had a big day and when I've used my brain a fair bit, I'm too tired to have to be more emotionally challenged. So for me, it's just easier to watch stuff blindly and just let it take me like Emily in Paris and all those shows.

Sahil Saluja [00:37:05] Oh my God.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:37:06] He gets so trigged when I say 'Emily in Paris'

Sahil Saluja [00:37:09] Fuck Emily in Paris, Emily can go----

Tasneem Chopra [00:37:13] I haven't seen that one. But I think my daughter has and she watches it for the same reason. And I'm like, no, I can't. I watch the Office. That's my big indulgence.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:37:21] I love the Office.

Sahil Saluja [00:37:21] I originally liked it because of the British Office but they did an amazing job with the American office. I've finished the whole season. And I thought, like how they made it American. And it's because Mindy Kaling just came and refurbished the whole show. And I think she's a gun.

Tasneem Chopra [00:37:39] I'm a bit conflicted about Mindy's role because she wasn't as dominant as I thought she could have been. And she was really as dominant and no one was apart from Oscar took a stand.

Sahil Saluja [00:37:49] There's a lot of problems with the Office. If you think about it, there's a lot of racist stuff in the show.

Tasneem Chopra [00:37:54] It's a 17 year old should again, you have to do the maths and that's probably why.

Sahil Saluja [00:37:58] I can't because being an actor in this current world, it's very hard for me to think 17 years ago.

Tasneem Chopra [00:38:06] We watched the first episode yesterday, because we watched the whole season, my son and I watch it together - its our thing. And we said let's start from the very beginning. And so we watched it and we looked at how young John Krasinski looked and I thought how old is this show. And we did the maths and it was seventeen years from now.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:38:28] Those sorts of shows that are just easy to watch, you just watch them and they let you they take you away on a mindless journey. Those sorts of shows obviously get the most funding because they're the most popular ones, because humans are so busy--

Sahil Saluja [00:38:41] Like Emily in fucking Paris. My problem with that show Tasneem because they show Paris as this Eiffel Tower and romanticised, but most of fucking Paris is black. It's so hard to find a black person in that show.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:38:54] There's one.

Sahil Saluja [00:38:55] Except he's gay.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:39:15] So I was saying to Sahil, I'm not in the industry, so it's different for me, whereas he's in the industry and he can see all of the problems. And I think I never saw it as an issue because and it's not to say that there is no issue.

Tasneem Chopra [00:39:29] What is an issue?

Huda Cadekiwala [00:39:30] The lack of ethnic representation like as in What I mean is like I think it's gotten better. But what I was trying to say is that I know that there is inherently an issue. But like when you're watching those shows, you don't think of the issues. You don't think that this is an issue because of this. You're just watching it mindlessly. But what I said to him was and I think that this is after a lot of analysis that I thought about this, I find that the reason I never consider it is because you will find a couple of ethnic people in it, like you'll have your one brown guy like and by brown, I mean like in shows like the Office or you'll have, you know, the one black guy in Emily in Paris and you'll have like an Asian person in the Superstore.

Sahil Saluja [00:40:15] And generally, it will be to add a twist.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:40:17] It will be to tick boxes. Because of the the tokenistic little inserts of these characters and actors and stuff. You don't think that this is a problem because you're like, well, yeah, but they're doing it. You know, that person's in that show.

Sahil Saluja [00:40:30] They got you. That's how they get you.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:40:33] But that's why and I agree with Sahil. I agree 100 percent. I didn't think about it until I actually did the actual analysis of why I never considered it as a problem and thought, oh, we're progressing and stuff.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:40:51] Funnily enough, I never considered it as a problem because you have your little tokens in them, which is really problematic. Then we hire diverse people for the sake of hiring them. How do you balance both merit and exclusivity? But then I also remember well, there are a lot of white people in a job that they shouldn't be.

Tasneem Chopra [00:41:11] Exactly that is a very good point. And I think there's no argument that when you start hiring with a more diverse less then you are going to compromise the sort of calibre of your staff. I think that's that's a load of bull shit.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:41:22] A 100 percent.

Tasneem Chopra [00:41:23] Because, again, that makes the assumption that the pre-existing talent pool is so meritorious Which it's not. And we know that , I mean look at the year 12 results in most private schools and most public schools around the country. Brown and Asian kids are doing amazing. They're the ones getting the top results. So there's no lack or shortage of diverse talent coming out of that schools. It's just when it comes to hiring, there's a barrier. And that's what we need to sort of question. And if we know that we're producing an enormous capital intelligence country, but we're not hiring it, the fault lies on the recruitment processes and the inherent bias within organisations about hiring in their own unit. It's like, dude, open up your recruiting process. That's what your limitations are. There's no shortage of people who could apply. And then as soon as you start doing application processes which have blind recruitment techniques like you cover the name, you cover the gender, suddenly low and behold things start diversifying and there is data there to back it up.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:42:24] I actually can say that this is a thing because so I've got a really close girlfriend and she's got a very white name and her resume and my resume is almost identical because we've pretty much grown up together, done all the same things together. And if anything, I've, you know, I've had a lot more like volunteer experience and all that sort of stuff right. Because I've got to overcompensate if I want to make it. And so I find that even if we were to apply for jobs, it may not be the exact same job. But if we were to apply for jobs at the exact same time, she's highly likely to get way more interviews than I ever will because of my name. I actually used her résumé because I thought my resume was shit, because I'm like I'm like, maybe my resume is just crap.

Tasneem Chopra [00:43:10] I don't know if it was Western Sydney University but or ANU, but they did surveys where they actually supplied CV's for positions which were exactly the same, and they just changed the names. And overwhelmingly those with an Arab, Chinese or Muslim sounding name were having to apply three to four times more than an anglo name. Like, that's just proven. So I wish I had the stats with me.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:43:35] It just kind of came up.

Tasneem Chopra [00:43:36] But it's entirely valid criticism of the way that businesses operate and why the workplaces that we have are so lacking in that diversity.

Sahil Saluja [00:43:47] The one thing I did want to talk about at the end and wrap up with is kind of looking at the other side again, because I don't want it to be like, oh, you know, the system needs to open up to diverse people. But at the same time, when I go back to India, even in India, a fairer person, a white person still gets preference. How the fuck can I complain when the same thing is happening within---

Huda Cadekiwala [00:44:08] our own communities?

Sahil Saluja [00:44:09] Yeah, and I kid you not, when I went to Bombay to audition for Bollywood, they were like castings that came up on WhatsApp that literally said extremely good looking person must be fair, extremely fair looking people. Or if it was a poor person, it would need a darker skinned person. So before I always feel like before I point a finger at someone else, like it's not like my community is doing it any better because we are inherently as racist.

Tasneem Chopra [00:44:35] Colourist.

Sahil Saluja [00:44:36] Yeah. Or discriminatory. So knowing that, how do you tackle both of them?

Tasneem Chopra [00:44:44] Yeah because otherwise it becomes hypocritical. Right. So I acknowledge the diversity, the lack of diversity, that the broader society is is symptomatic of in so many ways. But internally, I see it all the time, especially as a woman. You know, you're always told that if you want to get married, you're going to be fairer, then you have a much higher chance. You've got to be educated. You've got to preferably be a doctor or a lawyer. And I did an arts degree. So it was rough going. So that is inherently there and I see it and I'm the first to bring it up and I've had conversations after the Black Lives Matter movement on WhatsApp as you do with family members about something that came up. And I think I had some cousins abroad who scattered between like desi families between the UK and the Middle East and America and Europe. And we just made a comment about, oh, it's tragic what's happening. And one cousin made a comment 'let's face it, if one of our children were to come home with, you know, with a black fellow, we'd all be very concerned about it'. And I just like I'm glad she said because I knew what they were thinking. But I just went and I said there is no way I would be disappointed. I would be thrilled, you know, if they decided to bring him a black partner. And they are all well educated people, educated, intelligent people who are having these conversations, which shows you that that degree of I wouldn't say prejudice, maybe it's learnt behaviour. I call them the colonial scars.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:46:10] Yes.

Tasneem Chopra [00:46:13] I mean we were colonised by the UK which means that we just have standards of beauty that is so inherently drawn in whiteness. I think with India it's doubly so because of the caste system as well. It amplifies it. Right. And then you've got communities and families who inherited this bias and they don't even see it where the origin of it comes from. And they have been living in the east, they have been living in the west, happily know that they're also having to work, like you say, having to overcompensate for their skills and be the best pharmacist and the best lawyers and the best doctors because it's so competitive. And yet they harbor these views of internal racism. And to me, it's highly problematic. And these are people who are like one generation from East Africa, you have these views but they do. And it's very disappointing, is disappointing. And call it out. And I'm I'm very open at home with my kids. They know it's that, like, you know, it's there's no colour spectrum here. It's everyone's it's a free for all

Huda Cadekiwala [00:47:12] Regarding inclusivity how do we decide what's inclusive and what's not when we're discriminating against one thing, we're kind of discriminating across the board. So I guess, how do we almost pick or can we pick or should we be picking the one thing that we're fighting for? And why is it, you know, how can we make it so that we understand there are other other aspects of discrimination that exist as well?

Tasneem Chopra [00:47:34] I think it's a very subjective thing. If somebody might be very passionate about LGBTQ rights, for example, because they have a family member who's come out and they just they don't want them to experience discrimination and a hard life. So they they'll go out and they'll champion the issue. And it becomes a subjective battle for them. But their colleague at work may have no connection. With me it's it's really about respecting everyone's right to manifest their truth and manifest what they're value as long as it's not impinging on your ability to live safely, to be discriminated back. And accepting that you have your view and I have mine and we're not going to necessarily see eye to eye on this. But as long as you're not impacting my life and my ability to do what I need to do to live safely, that's fine.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:48:18] I think that's one way of looking at it. And I agree with that. The problem is also that we see it, as you know, if you're trying to tell someone, especially when it comes to inclusiveness and lack there of/discrimination, we're trying to give everyone an equal right. I think sometimes I find it really difficult to go 'Okay, well, I'm being told that I've got these views that are somehow extreme, even though I don't see them as extreme. I see it as if anything, they like the complete opposite, because I'm saying that everyone deserves a form of equality, even if they're different to us, to the point where they're so different, they're like another species' so I think that, like, you know, when we talk about stuff like, oh, you know, pushing your agenda onto others, I think it's the same as anyone going, well, you should be more inclusive. And that seems like I'm pushing an agenda when really all I'm saying is let's all just open up.

Tasneem Chopra [00:49:09] I agree. It's a fine line. Maybe inclusive isn't the word we should be using. It's I'm accepting of your views but I don't agree with them.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:49:16] Final question. according to you, what does a diverse and inclusive society look like in the next however many years? Like what would be the ideal world?

Tasneem Chopra [00:49:27] I guess a workplace where someone, a person of colour thinks of applying to work for without at any point in that process feeling they have to small themselves, whether it's change their name, sound more Aussie, modify their CV or reassure the employer that there ethnicity will not be, you know, an impediment to the job, which is an exact line I used in an interview once. I want to reassure you that turban will not be an impediment to my role. And they just looked at me like I was crazy, like we didn't think it would be. So a perfect world will be when we don't have to attend a particular prospective job with any of those limitations, sort of limitations in our mind, because we see ourselves already reflected in the way an organisation looks. You know, you just should see who's on the board and you see who's on the team and you see it's populated with, you know, diversity and intersectional representation of people. Oh, this is a fully inclusive workplace because anyone can work here from any particular background as long as they've got the competencies. And so an inclusive will be one where the core competencies are assessed and not your external, I guess the peripheries.

Huda Cadekiwala [00:50:33] On that note, Thank you so much for this morning.

Sahil Saluja [00:50:51] But it was an absolute pleasure having you. I think it'll be amazing to someday have you in person as well and you know actually see you in flesh. But thank you for taking out the time and I hope you have some minutes before your next meeting.

Tasneem Chopra [00:51:08] Thank you very much. This is probably the most robust and fun thing that I've done in a long time. And it's just I think it's a great platform that you guys are using. Very meaty conversations, really.Thank you!