Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.

I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.

After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.

In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.

Here's today's episode.

Welcome back to another episode of the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast and I'm absolutely delighted to to welcome back a friend of mine, a colleague of mine, someone that I've known for a while, pretty much since the beginning of my own journey with adhd.

She's been a guest before.

Amazing episode, really, really early on.

But I'm delighted to welcome back Sarah Templeton.

Now, if you haven't listened to my initial episode with Sarah, I urge you to and I will link it to the show notes but Sarah is a passionate advocate for adolescents and adults with either unrecognized or late diagnosed adhd.

She's also the Managing Director and lead therapist of Health Head Stuff ADHD Therapy, which is the biggest team of ADHD diagnosed counselors in the uk, and also CEO of the charity ADHD Liberty, which is passionate about keeping ADHD kids and adults free from drugs, addiction and out of prison.

And she is the author of her brand new memoir, the Prison Counselor.

Her only crime was caring and during Sarah's decades of working with the homeless addicts and serving with ex offenders, she understands the negative impact of undiagnosed and untreated adhd.

She's also an accredited ADHD counsellor, coach and CBT therapist and is a member of the APPG for ADHD at the Houses of Parliament and a campaigner for ADHD screening in all police stations, young offender units and prisons.

So we're talking to someone who really, really understands adhd.

Welcome back to the podcast, Sarah.

It's so good to have you here.

Thank you so much for having me.

I appreciate it.

I know that your passion has always lay or lied in helping people within the criminal justice system and helping get the support that they so desperately need and they've gone so unrecognized and I wonder, what is that driver for you to always be their ambassador, their advocate when no one else really is.

I ask myself this sometimes.

I'm like, why?

Why does everybody in the world come to me for ADHD and the criminal just system?

I can only put it down to the fact that I was a counselor in the prisons and in young offender institutes.

So I have met these people.

To me, they are not numbers.

They are not, oh, one in four, one in five, one in one in one in two, more like people.

These are people that I know.

These are now friends of mine that were in prison and they're now out.

So I know these people and I think that's the difference.

I've worked with them, I counsel them.

I've counseled them for some of them for a year.

You know, I got to know everything about them.

I got to know all about how they hated themselves.

They had all come from disadvantaged backgrounds, from whatever one you want to pick, you know, chaotic households.

They'd come from undiagnosed adhd, parents always.

They'd all come from houses rife with addiction, anger, violence, drugs, drug dealing, drug taking.

And these were not horrible people, you know, these were nice people that were kind and considerate and thanked me for coming every week and used to sit in front of me and cry because they hated themselves so much.

And how can you walk away from them and ignore them and not try and help them?

I can't do that.

I have got that big, big, big ADHD compassion thing going on.

It's massive in me.

And I've met so many of these people that I love some of.

I genuinely love some of them now on the outside, they call me family and I call them family.

They.

I absolutely love the bones of them.

How can I not fight for them?

And like you say, there's a lot of people fighting for late diagnosis, for women, for inattentive adhd.

There's loads of people fighting for these different things.

And I quite agree with all of them.

They all need fighting for, but there's not many or any that I can find people focusing on the criminal justice system.

And that will always be my biggest passion, always.

Until it's sorted out.

I'm trying very hard to sort it out.

That's what I'm working on now.

Once it's sorted out when it comes to adhd, I might take my foot off the pedal, but at the minute, I'm just focused on them because nobody else does.

Yeah, and your passion has always been there, and I've.

I've seen it over the years and it's incredibly inspiring.

And the sad thing Is, is that so many people have not had anyone, you know, talking about this or explaining or understanding or giving them this, this validation of what we know are some of the challenges of adhd, which is sort of impulsivity or, you know, decision making or the immaturity in boys for sure and girls.

And so many different connections of like you say, the addiction, the chaos, the dysfunction, difficulties, you know, with finances.

Hence a lot of people do turn to criminality.

So to be able to connect these dots and help people decipher between them being bad people, leading to terribly low self esteem and thinking that they'll never amount to anything and to be able to separate themselves and go, okay, so now I understand what that was part of my adhd.

And actually there are other options.

And I know the adolescents that you work with who have taken ADHD medication and the difference has been, you know, night and day.

Can you tell us a little bit about that so people can understand that these aren't bad people in prison, These.

Are not bad people.

There is a disconnect.

Like you say, people are getting their heads around right now that, oh, the full prisons are full of adhd.

We've got that far.

People are going, oh, it's disgusting.

The prisons are full of adhd.

It's disgusting.

What we haven't yet done is connect the fact that these are not just ADHD people that are naughty, therefore they've ended up in prison.

People aren't understanding that the traits of ADHD lead you along that path very often.

So they don't understand that ADHD brains work impulsively without thinking of the consequence of anything they say or do.

And I say, say, because so many people are in prison for telling a police officer to F off.

You know, so what we say, it can just come out of our mouths impulsively.

We also don't think of the consequence.

We are also risk taking, thrill seeking, adrenaline seeking, pushing boundaries and not liking authority.

Everybody's got those traits.

I've got them and I've never committed a crime.

But you can so easily see why people with those traits, when they don't have the most attentive parents, parents who are letting them go out, letting them, you know, because the parents busy with their own addictions or own issues.

So these kids with those unmanaged traits, often they're going to get into trouble.

They are going to get into trouble.

And when you actually explain it, I'll give you a quick case study.

There's a chap in prison now, he absolutely won't mind Me talking about him because he's going to come and work for the charity when he gets out.

He's 57.

He's been in prison twice.

Once for I think it was seven years, once I think for 15.

He's just been diagnosed ADHD in the last year and he's been put on medication, which is wonderful.

And he has already said, I now get it, I get it now I'm on the meds.

I totally understand why I did all those things in the past, why I've done everything he said, all of it I did without thinking of the consequences, never entered my head.

And he said most of it I did impulsively.

It just, just happened, you know, without any thought.

Bang, it happened.

So there are people in prison now who are now on the meds for the ADHD who are now starting to understand themselves and they are itching to get out and they're itching to help people who are still in there with adhd.

That's undiagnosed because they now get it, they get it, the difference in their brain.

Also.

I've had two people come out of prison who both considered themselves alcoholics.

They were both extremely heavy drinkers.

Within two weeks of being on the ADHD medication, both of them, without any decision to do this, stopped drinking, both of them.

And all their crime had been connected to alcohol.

So it had been getting drunk, causing a fray, adh, gvh, when drunk, stealing alcohol, all around, self medicating, their undiagnosed adhd.

So as soon as they're diagnosed and they're on the meds, the alcohol drops away without even planning to, it just, they just stop drinking.

And then they're both out of prison now.

One's been out for about five years and one's been out for about two years.

And they're people that were prolific offenders in and out of prison the whole time.

But get them diagnosed, medicated, different story.

We did a presentation to addiction Service.

There were 20 people in there, service users, and two tutors of them.

Of the 20 people, by the end of the presentation, 19 had realized they'd got ADHD.

19.

There was only one man, man is sort of 40s, who said, don't think that relates to me.

Everybody else in the room was either crying or googling ADHD and going, oh my God, oh my God, this is it, this is it.

Not only the 19 out of the 20 of the service users, but also the two tutors both realized they were ADHD as well.

So this is where there's a Big disconnect.

Those tutors, both lovely people, they had been working with these 20 people on reduction, you know, harm reduction, all the rest of it.

And they'd all missed the fact that they were all adhd.

So there's a big disconnect at the moment.

We're just about, as I say, just about understanding that the prisons, probation approved premises, all of them, they're chock a block with adhd.

But we're not quite realizing that it's the traits of ADHD that naturally, unless they're diagnosed, medicated or at least managed.

Lead to that we haven't quite got there yet.

Okay, so there's a, there's a growing awareness now, not everyone will want the medication or be able to get the medication if they go through that full diagnosis.

But what happens in the brain of someone who's been in and out prison has never, no one's ever said to them it could be adhd.

And they get that click, that awareness.

What does that awareness do, do to their, I guess, their self belief, their self esteem, their forward thinking?

Like how just simply the awareness of ADHD help them move forwards massively, as.

You can imagine, because so many of these people in prison hate themselves.

When I say hate themselves, I mean absolutely hate themselves.

Hate them.

Points themselves to the point of dangerous, you know, suicidal thoughts.

There's no point to me, I might as well not be here.

I'm useless, I get in the way.

I screw everything up.

Everything I'm saying, I've heard offenders say, you know, I screw everything up.

I'm the one that the family don't want because I'm the only one that nicks everything from their purses.

You know, they, they feel that they have nothing to give, nothing, hopeless, useless, worthless.

When they find out they've got adhd.

It's a slow process.

I will say that.

It doesn't.

It's not a sort of a light bulb thing with them because they feel that somebody's trying to give them an excuse and they don't want the excuse.

They're like, no, but I've done all this stuff, Sarah.

I am evil.

I am.

And I'm like, well, you've done all that stuff.

We accept you've done all that stuff.

But let's look at all of these ways your brain works and see whether there was a reason, not an excuse, that was there a reason for what you did.

Now, when you work very slowly with them about that, especially some of the alcohol ones, for example, the most severe alcoholic one, he could not Forgive himself.

Been in prison 15 times by the age of 29.

The lowest self esteem of anybody I've ever met.

It took, I would say, the best part of a year with me seeing him constantly really explaining the adhd, explaining this is how my brain works.

I'm not just saying it's your brain, it's mine, it's loads of other people's as well.

He eventually started to realize that the ADHD was the reason, but he was so not looking for an excuse, you know, he so wanted to blame himself and put himself down and hate himself for it.

And that's really, really common with loads of people.

So just knowing is transformational.

Which brings me on beautifully to why we are currently recording a 31 ADHD awareness videos.

For that very reason that raising awareness of what you might have and why you might have had, the life you've had up to now, whatever that's involved, is colossal, absolutely colossal.

Medication.

Yeah, it's lovely.

It's the icing on the cake.

It really is.

If it works for you, like you say, it doesn't work for everybody.

Some people don't want to take it.

Fair enough.

There's loads of ways of healthily medicating your adhd.

I'm sure, you know, there's loads of them and there's loads that even people can do in prison.

And one of the videos, we've got somebody do it well too, actually.

We've got people doing breath work because when you've got nothing else in prison, when you've got no gym, you can't get to the gym, you can't get out, you and yourself for 23 hours a day.

What's the one thing you have got yourself?

So we're teaching like the basics of breath work, how to calm yourself down, how to, how to help yourself, sleep.

That's why it's on two videos, because one's about sleep.

But yeah, breath work is really powerful when it comes to anger management, when it comes to all sorts of things.

So on the videos that we're currently recording, 31 of them for the entire prison system, we are focusing on people who can't access medication or, or for whatever reason, can't take it.

So there's people that can't take it, as you know, because of previous medical conditions that they've got.

Then there's the people that it doesn't work for.

So there's a, there's a fair few that, you know, might not be able to take it for whatever reason.

That's not the end of it.

There's loads you can do to help your ADHD even in prison.

This is what we're saying, this is.

This is the important thing is that I obviously talk about this a lot.

I'm very pro medication.

If it works a lot of people, including myself, I don't feel great on it.

So I prefer to do work harder or the well being and the lifestyle stuff.

But it really does, first of all, there's privilege with that, there's time, there's space.

I walk my dog, I go to the gym, I do breath work, I do yoga, like you know, I'm a free woman and I still struggle to do this.

But if you are in prison and yes, you're being punished for the crimes that you committed, but we've got to give these people a break to help themselves.

I've got a son, 20, he's just turned 20 yesterday and if he doesn't work out in the gym there's going to be a problem.

So we know he's diagnosed adhd.

It shows up in so many different ways.

But the gym for him is a massive one and I see it all the time.

I speak to so many boys who use the gym as their medication.

You have to get careful not it doesn't become an addiction but it's really can be great for them.

You know, we want to give these people a break and if they're not being given the facilities or the options or the support or you know, just maybe some supplements or some better nutrition or options to walk somewhere like it.

You'Re gonna get there.

I know, but I'm thinking like supplements.

In a prison, like if you get food.

But it's kind of like what it's a broken system which I'm sure you.

Know, it's a way beyond system.

Okay, it's desperately broken.

But what we are doing, I, I've thought long and hard, how can I change this?

How can I change this?

So I decided that we need to set up ADHD support groups in every prison and young offender institute and the Juveniles Secure Training Centers, all of those.

So what we are doing, my charity is we are recording currently 31 videos on all aspects of ADHD.

They are going to go, the MOJ know all about this.

The MOJ are going to check all the videos.

Ministry of Justice?

Yeah, Ministry of Justice, yeah, sorry, they are, are going to be checked over by an ADHD gp, two ADHD psychologists, including a forensic psychologist from the prison system and a psychiatrist.

They're also going to be accredited by the apa.

Which is a psychological accreditation organization.

So they are going to be psychologically sound.

So before they go near the mha, they're going to be completely checked.

Because the last thing I want to do in these videos is put have one sentence in one video that is going to be damaging to one person.

That's the last thing we can do.

We've got to be so careful.

But the videos.

I've got a list here because I forget this, right, the videos have got in them, these are the people recording them.

So we've got ex head of Send Schools for London.

So we've got a lot of stuff about children, why it's important get your children diagnosed early so they don't end up in prison like you, sort of thing.

Yeah, we've got a gp, we've got the forensic psychologist, we've got a child psychiatrist, we've got three different police forces who are going to be talking about how they have now seen the amount of neurodiversity they're arresting and what they're doing about it.

So we've got three different police forces coming in.

We've got the head, the UK bariatric nurse, so we've got videos about obesity and compulsive eating and how that's connected and what to do about that.

So that, in fact the head bariatric nurse in the whole of the uk, she's doing it because she's now diagnosed adhd.

There's a surprise.

She used to be my old band nurse.

We've got qualified psychotherapists, loads of them, coaches, two social workers.

So they're very, very professional, these videos.

But the one that I will tell you about this specifically you'll be interested in.

I had a zoom a couple of.

About a month ago with some people from HMP Eastwood park, which is a women's prison now, they'd heard about these videos.

They were like, we want your videos.

We know there's a lot of people in here with adhd.

I'm like, yes, you're right, and yes, you can have them and it's not going to cost you a penny.

We're giving these prisons free to everybody in the criminal justice system.

So is this through your charity?

Yes, through adhd.

So, yeah.

So adhd, we've already got it set up on the website.

There's a private area now for people working in the criminal justice system, so they will have access to free posters, flyers, handouts.

Not only are we giving them free to the criminal justice system, but also the education system.

So we are giving them free to every university, every college and every school.

But coming back to the women's prison.

When I had this meeting with them, they actually said to me, sarah, is there a video specifically for women?

And I was like, 4% of the prison population are women.

So I said, there isn't specifically, but these are all very much.

There's more women, more women in them talking about this stuff than there are men.

But they said, yeah, but we'd love a video about women and menopause.

That was what they said.

So I said, okay, if you want one about women and menopause, yes, we'll do them.

Which is why it's become 31 videos, not 30.

But I said, if you want one about menopause, you really need women and ADHD and periods, pregnancy, pmdd, puberty, all of it, and menopause.

And they said, yes, please.

So that is specifically for the women's prisons, but I will just say I.

Hope the men's prisons watch it as well, because they've all got sisters, mothers, daughters, you know, they've all got women.

In their lives, so it'd be helpful for them.

So that's what we're doing.

This is all.

And the videos we're doing, they're not just for the people in prison, they are for the staff, they are for the prison officers, the governors, the mental health teams.

They're for everybody to understand ADHD properly.

Every day we get emails from different prisons, either saying, can you come and train this in adhd?

More often saying, we've got people in.

Here that we can't get diagnosed.

Can you help us get them diagnosed?

Which we do.

We're doing assessments into prisons all the time, every week.

Also, we're getting.

I've got a client who has got adhd, possibly autism, and he thinks that impacted his offending behavior.

Can you help?

Well, yes, we can.

That's what we do.

So you probably know we've got two.

Social workers on our team and they are busy the whole time doing reports on how undiagnosed or unmedicated ADHD has impacted somebody's offending.

So my job's changed.

My job is now completely legal, which I love, because when I was young, I quite fancied working in the criminal world, but I'm not intelligent enough, but I've landed in it by accident.

So now I'm dealing with solicitors, barristers, boys in prison, ipp, prison prisoners.

I don't know if you know.

Do you know about IPP prisoners?

Ipp, okay.

IPP is a dreadful, terrible thing.

It's been outlawed as inhumane.

But there are still people in prison.

There's about 3,000 of them still on IPP, prison sentences.

And what it means is there's no end date, so they stick you in there.

It stands for two things, but the easiest thing is indeterminate prison sentence for the protection of the public.

So that's one of the things it stands for.

So these boys, I think it only.

Ran for about eight years or something.

This sentence with no end.

There's men, I say men, they were boys when they went in.

They're now men in their 40s and 50s who've been in there since their 20s and 30s, 20, 30 years they've served with no end date.

And what I didn't expect, I was invited down to a prison, HMP Warren Hill in Suffolk.

I was told in advance, they're all IPPs and lifers.

I knew that.

What I didn't know was they were all going to be adhd.

And the reason they're all ADHD is because every year you have a parole hearing and if you've kicked off once, if you've literally lost your temper once, or even got a bit Marty and a bit angry once, that goes against you at the next parole hearing.

So because they're all undiagnosed and unmedicated adhd, of course something happens in that.

Year, of course at some point they're.

Going to get a bit peed off about something.

And so I went down there to meet them, I did a talk and then after my talk I had this massive queue of people queuing up to talk to me, going, Sarah May, DHD.

Sarah, my DHD.

What do I do?

Sarah made it about 30 of them.

Ridiculous.

So I'm helping them and I'm helping all their solicitors try and get them.

Out because they're the ones that really upset me.

There's one who's been in there for.

He was 27 when he went in, he's now 47.

There's another one who's 57, he was in his early 30s when he went in.

You know, they've gone in as like young adults and they're coming out as almost old men.

It's such a fine line between entrepreneurship, you know, doing, doing great things in the world and criminality.

And often is what you said at the beginning of this conversation is sadly parenting.

That is not there.

It's a one parent household, lack of funds, kids being bored in school.

So truancy, leaving school.

They haven't got that structure and it is.

It's like one small incremental thing that happens and happens and all of a sudden you see how ADHD kids can go off the rails and their life goes what that way.

Whereas you see someone else and they, you know, from a supportive family, caring, loving, there's may privilege there with money to get therapy and coaching and how you can use your ADHD for good.

And it just shows how easy it is for the paths to separate.

And it's so easy when you say about what you've just said, that's so true.

I have not met one boy in prison who finished school.

Not one, not one who took gcse.

Didn't even get close, didn't even get to the last couple of years.

You know, most of the people in prison have less, have left school by 13, 14, and they've left school because in junior school, you know, you have one teacher each year, so that teacher tends to get to know who you are, knows your little foibles, knows you might need to get up and run around for a bit and knows you might doodle and all the rest of it.

When you go to senior school, it's all different teachers, they don't get to know you so well.

So these kids that have kind of managed just about in junior school suddenly don't manage.

And also it's when their undiagnosed coexisting conditions show up.

So that's really going to show up when you've got dyslexia.

But these boys and girls in prisons, it's heartbreaking because often they're incredibly bright, but because they couldn't do that one thing.

Maybe they couldn't spell, maybe they couldn't write dysgraphia, maybe they couldn't do maths.

That's been the thing that teachers have been going, you need to try harder.

You can do it in English, apply yourself in maths.

I had that.

You can do it in English and history.

Apply yourself.

Still happening now.

I'm okay.

That's a terrible thing.

So we're rolling this back.

Yes, we want.

We are doing pilots in police probation, approved centers, approved schools, all of it.

I will tell you one pilot, we did a pilot in an approved school in Nottingham and there were 30 kids in there, all excluded from school.

He screened the whole lot of them and 93.4% were ADHD and some of.

Them had already been arrested.

So it's those excluded kids who are on their way to prison and any sort of school for excluded kids.

We want Them screening, because that's where you catch them young.

If you can catch them when they're 12, 13 and they're first in those schools, that's when you can stop them getting arrested at 14, 15 and in prison by the time they're 16, 17.

But the tragic thing is the other end, when they come out, the other end with the.

They eventually get out.

They're incredibly bright.

I know I've got.

I've just been the last person I've been speaking to, actually, before I came on to you.

He's been in prison most of his life.

He's 32 and he's now doing a degree.

He said, I can't do your prison filming on Friday because I'm at university.

Hallelujah.

Finally realizes, oh, my God, it's been ADHD all along.

Now doing a degree.

So even if you look at this from an education point of view, we are massively failing these kids by not picking up earlier.

Massively failing 100%.

I wonder, what would you like, you know, if you could go forward in time?

Ten years, I'm going to say 10 years.

What would be your wish for your mark and your legacy?

I know how hard you work.

You're like a machine with this.

What would you like to see?

I would love to see, okay, my utopia.

Everybody being screened in school at 5 and every transition.

So 7, 11, so 16, just in case anybody's missed.

I would love to see teachers trained properly.

So would they.

All the teachers I talk to, they want proper training in adhd, dyslexia, dyscalcia, dysgraphia, asd, all of it.

And I would also love mandatory screening throughout the whole criminal justice system, especially at police stations.

Lots of police.

Cumbria Police now, the first police that have embedded it completely.

ADHD screening happens to every single person that goes into Cumbria Police now.

And they've taken two years to do this, to get the protocols, the paperwork, the approvals.

But now they've sent it off to the.

To the top police organizations to say, right, please copy this in every police station.

So that's on the way with the police.

The police are being brilliant because so many of the police realize they've got ADHD and all the people they're arresting have as well.

So I would love that to be rolled out to all the police forces so we catch the kids the first time they go into a police station.

And I would love mandatory.

I don't want much, do I?

Finally, I would like screening in all addiction services and homelessness services, because there's a big crossover with those.

So the day all that happens, I'll be very happy and I can go and Lana beach forevermore.

Until that happens, I'm going to be the fly on the bottom of everybody who's not doing it.

Because it's so easy to do.

It is free.

And the important thing is.

I'll give you a quick story from probation.

One of them got in touch and they got some money that they wanted paid to get people screened.

And I said, that's great, we can help you with that.

We've got two assessors on our team, blah, blah.

And at the end I said, actually, can I ask you one favor because I'm going to do all that for you.

Can I ask you one favor?

And she said, yeah, of course.

And I said, would you do an ADHD screening pilot for us?

Right.

This is a big probation.

She looked at me, she said, well, I will, Sarah.

She said, but you do know it's all of them.

And I said, yeah, I do know it's all of them.

I just got chills from that.

But I know that was her way.

She went, I will.

But you do know it's all of them.

Yes, I do know it's pretty much all of them.

It's rare for it not to be ADHD because we need these figures to get people in the government to realize this is, this is the problem.

This is why you don't need to be building new prisons.

This is why you don't need to be worried about the amount of prison officers you've got and you can't recruit or the probation officers that you can't recruit.

Stop worrying about that.

Start worrying about the mental health problems all these people have got.

Diagnose and medicate them and then all your other problems evaporate.

You don't need loads of new prison officers, you don't need loads of information officers.

You don't need to keep wasting money on building prisons.

You really don't.

You can start emptying them because when they come out, most of those are not going to reoffend.

The vast majority, if I had to put a figure on how many won't reoffend, I would say it's over 90%.

You know, most of them diagnosed medicated, bang.

They get their life back.

They can regulate their emotions.

They don't want to punch people anymore, they don't want to steal, they don't need to self medicate their adhd.

They're changed people when they come out.

And this is when the prisons are Talking about rehabilitation, this is what they need to do.

Assess first for ADHD and all the neurodiversities.

Obviously, you know, it needs picking up.

If they've got dyslexia, dysfunctional apraxia, dyscalculia, all of those need picking up.

And it doesn't cost anything to shove a screener in front of anybody.

All the people that go back, oh, cost, funding, funding, costs, rubbish.

There's online screeners that are free for all these conditions.

We've given people paper screeners.

We've got an online screener on our website.

The only thing that costs is diagnosing.

Or wouldn't you rather diagnose people with the right conditions than misdiagnosing them with personality disorders, which is all the prisons do.

They give people, 1, 2, 3, 4 personality disorder diagnosis.

That's no help for anybody.

Nobody's.

Nobody's got a personality disorder.

Nobody was born with the wrong personality.

They might have had trauma, they might have undiagnosed adhd, autism, tons of other stuff they're dealing with that might have brought on certain behavior.

It's not because they've got a personality disorder.

There's a lot of us, me included, who want that dropped.

Dropped as a diagnosis.

It doesn't exist.

One of the people that's madly passionate about that is on our videos.

She's the forensic psychologist who worked in.

The prisons for 16 years.

She's left the prison system for that very reason.

She was sick of having to diagnose people with personality disorders when they all had adhd.

You know, we're struggling to get those at the top to realize that ADHD isn't just naughty behavior.

It is behavior driven by unmedicated or unmanaged traits.

That's what it is.

And until you actually find out what the person's got and help them, like you say, either manage it without meds or with meds, whatever.

That's why the videos we're doing.

There's a lot on how to manage your ADHD if you can't access meds, if you can't get out of your cell.

What you were saying earlier about exercise, that's one thing they can do in their cells, and they can most definitely do breath, work and mindfulness type stuff in their cells to calm themselves down.

It's easy stuff, it's free stuff, it doesn't cost money.

And you can do it on your own.

You don't need a partner to do it.

You know, you don't need gym equipment.

You can actually do a hell of A lot of it on your own.

One of the whole videos is all about how to speak to an ADHD person.

What will put their back up, what plays into the positives in their brain.

What's the way to actually get the best response from an ADHD person and he's ever.

Such small little children changes.

As you know, I always say ask, don't tell and give options.

That's it in a nutshell.

If you ask, you say to somebody, do you want to get back behind your door now, mate, or do you want, do you want to knit to the loo first or do you want me to give you 10 minutes and I'll come back?

That doesn't put somebody's back up.

It's the same with the kids.

Same thing I'd say to my children.

Yeah, it works for me.

We need that sense of autonomy.

And like you say, we like to be asked.

We want, we want a choice.

Yes, ask, consult makes us feel in charge.

And it costs nothing to change your wording.

It costs nothing.

Positive reinforcement, questioning, giving them, giving them that sense of autonomy even when they feel like they've got absolutely none.

Being able to get them to a place of rehabilitation, get them to a place of where they aren't at rock bottom.

What's your thoughts on.

Okay, they find out they've got adhd.

Is there a part of them that is like, well, that's just gonna excuse everything that I've done and I've got no, you know, control over it.

And that's, that's that like, what do you say when you've got a prisoner that's saying, well, it's my adhd.

I've never met one, I've never met one like that.

They might exist and they might in the future, they may exist.

Somebody go, oh, hello.

That's a bit Andy.

I'll just say I've got all this.

But like, you know, ADHD is such a multifaceted condition.

It goes much deeper.

When they find that out, it's, it's earth shattering for them.

I talk about the 57 year old now who's coming to work for us.

He's not bitter.

Not bitter.

I'd be bitter if I'd been in prison in my 30s, 40s and 50s, I'd be bitter.

He's not, but he does say, it does explain every single thing I've done.

And he's desperate to make amends.

That's what people do when they find out they've got adhd.

I'm quite sure, as I Say there probably will be some that think it's a handy little thing, but it's not.

You can't fake the adhd, you just can't.

There's too many parts to it to fake it.

We, but I haven't met an arrogant one yet.

I've met many shocked ones, many who the opposite who do not want to use it as an excuse and think it's going to be seen as them looking for an excuse and they don't want that.

They want to take responsibility for all that they've done.

I think quite of them question why, why was this not picked up before?

One of them, this is one of the reasons he couldn't believe he was ADHD.

He'd been in prison 15 times by the time he was 29.

He'd also been a prolific self harmer.

So he was in health care every single day.

So he said to me, Sarah, surely if I have got adhd, surely they'd have picked this up in prison.

I've been in 15 times and I've been in healthcare nearly every day, they'd.

Have picked it up, surely.

And I was like, sadly not.

I wish that was the case.

I wish we could say yes, definitely, you know, it would have been picked up, therefore you've not got adhd.

But actually when he was diagnosed that one, he was diagnosed with the most severe case of ADHD that psychiatrist had ever seen.

Now he's out, he's been out now for about five years.

I think he's about 34 now, very happy, got two kids, working on the medication, not drinking.

And he also goes to AA two or three times a week just to make damn sure that he never goes back to drinking because he doesn't want to go back to prison and he's not got much reason.

I don't believe he ever will now.

He's completely free of that part of his world.

But so I don't know, in answer to your question, if there are any that will use it like that.

I haven't met anybody.

Takes a lot for me to get them to accept that all these traits were part of their ADHD and therefore they have been missed and let down.

It takes me a lot, a lot to get them to accept that.

What I'd love to see is some proper research backs, you know, evidence that will show that what happens when somebody who finds out they've got adhd, they come out of prison and the trajectory that happens from that and we'll be able to follow ex prisoners and how their life goes because that turning point of the ADHD awareness and diagnosis will be, like you say that I've met the same amount of people who, maybe not in the criminal justice system, but who have used that ADHD as their turning point.

Yes, it's taken a while.

They've had to learn, they've had to grow and develop and hone different skills, but it's all possible.

And so if we have that there, like you say, that that can change the systems, that can change, you know, prison systems around the world.

Do you think that's possible, that kind of.

That kind of research?

Yes, I do.

There are lots of mentoring organizations, for example, who help people as soon as they've come out of prison.

I had an email from prison this week trying to think which one who said, we are diagnosing and medicating people here.

I wish I could think, but I can't think which prison it is.

But there are pockets where it's.

Where it's going.

Right, but there are, I would say, 90% it's not.

So once we've got these videos into the prisons, we think this is the best way of raising awareness of ADHD to everybody.

There's nothing like this anywhere else with this amount of ADHD information in them.

And these will transform things.

So I'm actually glad the MOJ have got involved because the MOJ said once they've approved them, they will roll them out into the whole prison system and the whole probation system, which is terrific.

So, you know, we're just.

We're working on them now.

It's taking longer because I'm a terrible perfectionist.

It's taking longer than I thought.

But they'll be ready.

The first ones will be ready to roll out by about November, December, and then they'll be coming out steadily after that.

And then people can start to set the support groups up, knowing that the videos are coming at a regular, regular pace.

I should imagine we'll be finished with the whole lot by about March.

But you know that they're coming.

It's incredibly inspiring and I know this conversation.

There's going to be a lot of people that will either want to help, get in touch.

I don't want people to bombard you, but where is the best place if people are hearing this?

No, I'll tell you how people can help.

We've got a new thing going on which.

Which Shetland did, and we're doing it as well.

This is.

We're starting just giving campaigns in every city in the UK to get my school teachers book into Every school.

So we've reduced the price to 10 quid.

There's no profit in it.

I don't give a monkeys about profit, I just want it in every school.

Because if that book goes into every school, that's the start of the school to prison pipeline.

We can stop it right there.

So if people get in touch, we've a very easy way people can help now and that is we give them the wording.

They set up a just giving campaign to get the book into every school in their town in Shetland.

I must tell you, Kate, they did it and within a day they raised enough to get it into every school on Shetland.

In a day, that's 97 schools.

And in the end they had so much.

They had enough for three books for every school and then they got more money donated.

So they then put some of my teenager books into the.

Into the senior schools and some of my kids book, the murder book into the infant schools.

So if Shetland can do it, our wording is if Shetland can do it in a day, come on, the rest of the uk, let's get this book into every school and people.

So when people volunteer and I would love your reader, readers listeners to do the same, please get in touch.

We can send you the wording set up just giving wherever you are.

And let's get the book into every.

Into every school.

That is what is going.

Starts from that pattern.

It starts from five, from teachers understanding.

Oh, hello.

He's a bit lively.

I wonder if he's got adhd.

That's.

That's where it starts.

Start there and stop getting into prison.

Stop them going to prison because that's the bit that breaks my heart.

So let's start young and catch them young.

Okay, Very young.

So where do people go which is an email address or a website?

No, they can go on the ADHD Liberty website.

That's the easiest thing.

And there's a contact form on there, so it's ADHDiverty.org it's very easy.

There's a contact form.

Just contact and say that you want to help and you want to help the school to prison pipeline and we can send you the link and you can get going straight away.

And we need people.

We've got one lady in Solly Hallo started.

She said I'll do Solihull but I'll also do Birmingham.

Well, that's fantastic.

So she's cracking on with Solly Helen, Birmingham.

But we want it in every, literally every town and every city in the uk because I've seen it Work on Shetland.

If Shetland can do that in a day, get enough money for.

In every school on Shetland, which is 97 schools, it's not in a tiny amount.

97.

And in the end, within a week, they got enough to put it in a three into every school.

Come on.

If Shetland can do it, everywhere can do it.

Obviously, we're starting here.

I should have also mentioned that these videos are going to Australia because we.

I've got a lot of criminal justice contacts in Australia.

Lovely, lovely people.

And they've said, can we have your videos?

I said, absolutely.

And that in Australia, that is youth offending teams, probation, prison and sex offending teams.

So all those videos are going to Australia as well, and then, we hope, to America, because they're free.

What's not to love?

They can have these videos for free and, and educate everybody in the cjs and in the schools.

Amazing.

Sarah.

Yeah, you really are an inspiration and I think, you know, in 10 years time we're going to look back at this conversation and hopefully all the things that you said will have come true and a lot more.

Maybe an OBE as well for you.

Oh, I don't want one of them.

I couldn't have one of them.

People keep saying that.

I'm like, I don't want one of them.

How could I take one of them when this is still going on in the prisons?

No way.

When this is when everything's going right, everyone's been screened, diagnosed, medicated and they're all coming out of prison.

That's when I'll go online.

A beach.

Until then, I'm keeping working because it's not happening.

It's not happening fast enough.

Lives are still being lost.

That's what's not acceptable.

That's why my videos are going to stop this, I hope.

Amazing.

I'm going to put all the details in the show notes, including all the books, and make sure that people know everything that you do, because you do so much.

And thank you for leading the way, Sarah, really, I do appreciate everything you do.

You've taught me loads.

And thank you so much.

Well, thank you for having me on because this helps spread the word, so I'm very glad.

I'll make sure we spread the word, don't worry.

Bless your heart.

Thanks, Sarah.

Thank you.

If this episode has been helpful for you and you're looking for more tools and more guidance, my brand new book, the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Toolkit, is out now.

You can find it wherever you buy your books from.

You can also check out the audiobook.

If you do prefer to listen to me.

I have narrated it all myself.

Thank you so much for being here and I will see you for the next episode.