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Hello and welcome to this week's episode of BWB Extra, where we get to know entrepreneur, mentor and investor, John Stapleton, a little better.

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So John, let's wind the clock back.

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We've had a bit of a taster of this, but we're just going to cover it a bit more.

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How did you end up doing what you now do?

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So what did you do at university?

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Well, I studied industrial microbiology in dub, which is usually a show, a conversation stopper straightaway as well.

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There's lots of these.

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There's a story here, which is kinda like interesting way back in 1987 or so.

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Yeah, I studied industrial microbiology and there's lots of things you could do, which really exciting.

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Then in, in Ireland there was, the economy was on its knees.

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So in the 1980s, mid it, mid 1980s is like, there was, there were no jobs.

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Yeah, so it was really important to figure out when you come outta university, what.

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What were you going to do?

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What sort of job was this university experience going to prepare you for?

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And there were two things which we weren't quite sure if they were going to, you know, have any longevity.

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And you'll chuckle when I say, one was genetic engineering, another was biotechnology.

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So both of them turned out quite well in hindsight.

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Maybe I took the conservative approach, you know what, I've got to go into food because that's one thing that's never going to go out of fashion.

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Food is always going to be around because lots of people, and we even, you know, population is growing.

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Which is.

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A different challenge in terms of trying to feed the world.

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But people are always going to need to eat.

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So food, the food industry is going to evolve, but it's always going to be around.

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So I'm going to get into food.

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So then I came to Reading University and studied food science.

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So I became kind of a bit of a techie in the food science, to understand all of that.

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But then I met a guy called Andrew, Andrew Palmer, and he was the entrepreneur.

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He had this crazy idea of making fresh soup, and he came to Reading because it was a centre of excellence in food, which is why I had gone there, to ask these guys about making soup.

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Now, An entrepreneur asking a scientist a question about how you do things is like, just the wrong question.

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Because the scientist won't understand the question.

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You know, science is all about certainty and testing and proving.

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An entrepreneur is about gut feel and intuition and doing.

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So he didn't really get very far, but what they did say to him, and I still to this day don't know why, I guess they were just trying to get rid of him.

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They said, this Irish guy finishing up his master's, he might be able to help you.

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You should meet him.

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And I was on campus, we met, we went to the pub for lunch, and we were kicked out of closing time.

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We spent the entire afternoon, the entire evening, Talking, arguing, discussing, we ended up with more questions than answers.

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You were just talking about soup.

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Well, soup and everything that goes with it, you know, soup, consumers, how, what, how do you make it?

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He had no idea, I clearly had no idea, but between the two of us we were going to figure it out.

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So in the end, the short version of the story is, we ended up, like I say, with so many questions, the only way we could figure out what the answer would be was to go and do it.

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So we decided then to do it.

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And that's when New Covent Garden Soup Company ultimately was founded.

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It was born all the way back in 1987 in Reading University.

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Uh, so that's how I got into it.

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Purely in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Do you have a long term goal?

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Yeah.

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The long term goal was five years later sell the business.

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Yeah.

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That's as long term as we could think.

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I mean, I was out of university.

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That five years seemed like a long time.

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It was very naive to think you could do that in five years.

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You probably needed ten, and we did.

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It's always ten.

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It's, it's, it's, it's more than five, certainly.

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Because if you sell a business in the food industry, Uh, five years in, you've almost, you've kind of invariably left value on the table.

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Because you haven't realized the value yet.

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You haven't proved enough to be able to get, you know, a return that you, that you probably could.

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Now, don't get me wrong.

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You've got this kind of what I call entrepreneurial sort of disease or, or, or, or, yeah, it's a kind of a, uh, an illness if you like, which, which where you say to an entrepreneur, when are you going to sell your business?

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And they go, two years time, because I want to do this, this, and this.

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There's an opportunity here.

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I've never done this properly.

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I think I want to do that.

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I'd say two years.

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So.

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That's not like a sensible answer.

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You come back in two years time and you have a problem though.

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If you ask the same question, you get the same answer.

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Two years time.

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Because I've got this to do, and I've got that to do, and there's so many exciting...

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So an entrepreneur will always say, I need more time to do more, to add more value.

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All I can say is that, take that, you know, element out of it.

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And five years is too short, and ten years might be about right, or somewhere eight to ten years is about right in my experience.

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So we thought five years we'd sell the business took us ten.

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But in those days, 10 years went by, like 5 years anyway, you know.

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What do you think about these kind of, uh, uh, structuring, the way people structure a lot of the deals these days where, you know, you, you effectively sell a, a majority stake, or you sell,

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uh, almost a majority stake, and then you've got a deal to sell some more in a couple of years, and a couple of years after that, you know, to try and avoid that leaving the money on the table.

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Uh, how's it work?

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What are you saying?

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What, what, what kind of deal?

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You basically, you sell, say, 51%, The entrepreneur does, but you've got put and call options.

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This is exactly what happened with Innocent, that say, we'll sell you another chunk in two years time, we'll sell you another chunk in four years time.

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To the investor.

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To the investor.

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But the, the entrepreneur is still in there, in the business with the investor for that period, so you can...

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You know, structure the business and what the business is doing in a way to make the most money on the second and third sales.

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Yeah, I call it the Green and Blacks model because for us, Green and Blacks were the first to do that, that I heard of, and it was kind of, oh, that's an interesting way of doing it, why would you do that?

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And the reason is, it reduces the uncertainty, it takes away a bit of the risk, you know, the Cadbury's in that case were coming into the business, providing investment.

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But you almost, almost always end up making around the same.

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For, you know, a third of your business as you did for half your business at the start.

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Really?

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Is that what you're saying?

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Yeah.

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It's not more.

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Yeah, I mean, if you're well advised.

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It normally works well.

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Obviously advising on deals like this.

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So you've got to take account of the stuff that you don't know yet.

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So that, I want to end up with that value at the end.

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So, yeah, my put and call option makes sort of sense.

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Otherwise, you kind of think, well, how do I know?

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Well, in that case, leave.

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Don't do that.

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And you also need to maintain enough control that you can pull the right levers during that period.

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You can make the right decisions.

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You do.

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You do.

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So it's another model.

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Yeah.

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I wouldn't knock it.

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It clearly works for lots of businesses.

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You need to be a little bit more mature though.

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You know, five, six years in, or at least.

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Yeah.

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Before you start thinking about that.

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Uh, but you can get resources into the business.

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It's another way of, you know, bringing resources into the business you don't have, which is your argument when you sell, ultimately, if you don't do that, you're selling tomorrow, you know.

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Tomorrow's potential, but you want to get tomorrow's price today.

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So you kind of say, we've done all this, realize a huge amount of potential.

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It clearly works.

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You guys can come in with your experience and your money and marketing opportunity, take it international or do more.

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Which is exactly our argument.

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Yeah.

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We sold it to Daniels.

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But we want a premium for that.

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And they, and they agreed and they bought and then they took it to, we sold 20 million revenue and they took it to 100 million revenue over, over the next eight years.

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So great for them and great for us.

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And do you personally have a long term goal?

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Um, I, I guess I'd like to do more and more and more of what I'm doing is a bit of a cop out this answer, but more and more of what I'm doing in a way that, that really makes a difference.

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Right.

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So I'd like to help small businesses to grow.

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Um, so I got a great opportunity and scope to help all sorts of small businesses to grow that are in the food and drink space.

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I like to get involved with, with, um, challenger brands and brands that have a purpose.

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And one of the other things, by the way, that I'm involved in these days, apart from what we talked about earlier, is I'm chairman of a vertically farmed business or a vertical farm business.

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Oh, in a building.

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Yeah.

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Fisher Farms is a vertical farm business.

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And we, We are just about to open the biggest, we think actually, the biggest vertical farm in the world, outside Norwich, in Norfolk.

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Actually, we're not really building a vertical farm, we're building more of a horizontal farm.

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Traditionally it was stacked, you know, very high, and you can still stack high, but we just build out.

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Um, and the whole idea is it's a fantastic opportunity to contribute to, you know, sustainable goals and food security.

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It is one of the best ways.

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To, to, to, in a post Brexit world, to satisfy some of the opportunities, some of the, the challenges, um, that the UK, um, retail category is facing.

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Because the majority of what we will grow, which is green leafy things, so bagged salads and herbs, are sourced from overseas.

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Um, during the winter months, for obvious reasons, you can't grow in the UK.

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And all the issues with importing and control of overseas.

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And you saw a lot of empty shelves this winter in the UK, for various reasons.

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But most of the time for, because the security of the supply chain coming from overseas was disrupted or was unreliable.

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And we remove all that uncertainty.

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Because we grow, we, you know, the conditions we generate in our vertical farm internally.

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is ideal 365 days a year.

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So it's optimized for growing whatever we want to grow.

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And it's growing in the UK and it's right there.

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So we can supply into the retailers or into the food service industry or into the manufacturing industry for retailers.

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So there's a huge demand for, Uh, that those products because it solves that solution, it's a solution to solving that problem.

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And secondly, it's, it's a wonderful sustainability message, right?

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We use 3 percent of the water that a traditional farm would.

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Yeah, they're supposed to be incredibly efficient.

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And they, uh, we have a client who's done it in an office and people get, you get these sort of huge happiness uplifts.

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And the thing that makes them happiest is taking a tomato home, basically.

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Yeah, there's a couple of young guys as well that do, um, in London are doing vertical farm.

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for supplying restaurants and things for, you know, It's more of a localised approach.

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And our approach is doing all of that.

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It's hydroponics under lights.

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So that's the technology, but it's at scale.

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Because we want to ultimately have large enough farms to supply retailers, but also ultimately to bring the cost, the unit cost of growing a bag of salad to be equal to that of Conventionally grown crops.

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Okay.

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We want it to be accessible.

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We're not trying to build a premium product that's only accessible to Brexit.

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The biggest problem that Britain has is that it can't feed itself.

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It just physically cannot, right?

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So it's a net importer.

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For a whole bunch of reasons, over many, many decades of decisions or indecisions.

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That's a huge problem.

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Is that not common with countries?

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Or most countries can feed themselves, can they?

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Yeah, it very much depends.

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Like Ireland is a net exporter for all the historical reasons that agriculture is so strong in Ireland.

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You know, take Egypt.

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Egypt, before the war, imported 100 percent of their wheat from, guess where?

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Ukraine.

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Uh, major problem, all of a sudden, right today.

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Right now the civil sort of mitigated some of that problem.

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But, but, but they are a net importer.

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Think of the, of the desert, and think of the major cities like Cairo.

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Very difficult to be self sustaining.

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However, we can build really large vertical farms in Egypt, for example, or across...

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North Africa or the Middle East, connected up to very large solar farm solutions, which is like a renewable energy source, of which they have a lot of, sun, right?

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So cheap energy, which is an issue in its own right, uh, supplying energy to the lighting system, we have, as I say And I've seen this where they create water even in the desert.

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You create these sort of, if you create these, um, from condensation and stuff, they can actually like grow crops and do this, it's sort

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of, you can get a completely self sufficient autonomous There are variations on a theme at Berkeley Farms, so you've got to be careful.

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There are hybrid systems using, using, using some element of greenhouse technology as well.

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But so, so really, strictly speaking, we're talking about hydroponics, so we have a closed system of waters.

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We just need to fill up once, and then we recycle that water with the nutrients in it all the time.

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So we're constantly using the same water.

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That's why we, Very small amount of evaporation.

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So 3 percent of the water that we use is lost in evaporation.

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Is that the key?

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I mean, more than the key, more than anything?

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Well, especially if it's in Egypt.

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There's a whole point about how it is with water scarcity and land scarcity to grow enough food to feed the world, literally.

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And back in the 1930s we had 2 billion people on the planet.

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Today we've got 8 billion.

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At this rate in 2050 we'll have 10 billion.

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Of which 5 billion, half of it will be the consumption rich middle classes.

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And we back, you know, we have grown tremendously, which is fantastic, right?

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But we have a huge problem of trying to feed the world without trashing it in the process.

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Yeah.

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And I'm not saying very Trump's gonna solve all that, but it's one way, it's one, it's one way to have to stop to, to stop trashing the, the planet.

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So we, it really is a solution today for green leafy things, but tomorrow for soft fruits and, and, and, and, and, uh, and berries.

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And ultimately we think 10, 15 years tall, we'll be able to grow things like soy, wheat, rice, indoors.

215
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:00,580
And that's a really interesting proposition.

216
00:12:00,890 --> 00:12:06,230
In areas where it's really difficult, more difficult to grow soy, wheat, and rice.

217
00:12:06,250 --> 00:12:13,319
In indigenous populations where because of climate change, adding to all these problems, lack of water, lack of land, climate change is becoming more and more difficult.

218
00:12:13,775 --> 00:12:17,385
Um, to grow all these indigenous crops, high colorific content.

219
00:12:17,595 --> 00:12:22,745
And that's leading to migration, that's leading to strife, and that's leading to all sorts of problems, on a society level.

220
00:12:22,955 --> 00:12:24,825
Now, are we going to save the world?

221
00:12:24,905 --> 00:12:25,894
I'm not saying that.

222
00:12:26,104 --> 00:12:35,255
But I think what vertical farm technology can do is play a significant role of combating all these problems and making it easier to allow indigenous populations to stay where they want to, which is their home.

223
00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:38,050
Because, and they have to leave because they've got hunger problems.

224
00:12:38,319 --> 00:12:40,340
So, I think there's a bigger picture here.

225
00:12:40,410 --> 00:12:46,300
So, that long term goal is one thing, but it's kind of difficult not to be really excited about that proposition, right?

226
00:12:46,430 --> 00:12:53,169
So, yeah, I'm very interested in, and really focused on trying to make sure that we can do something with purpose in our lives.

227
00:12:53,289 --> 00:12:58,059
I knew Kevin Gardner was all about doing the right thing for many, many ways, but, but it's, but yeah, this is one step beyond that.

228
00:12:59,090 --> 00:13:00,890
And would you say climate change is the biggest issue?

229
00:13:01,530 --> 00:13:03,130
Oh, well, I think it's one of the major ones.

230
00:13:03,130 --> 00:13:04,600
I think there are all sorts of big issues out there.

231
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,939
I'm not trying to say that everybody's essence has to be about solving a world problem.

232
00:13:08,959 --> 00:13:10,180
I'm not trying to make that statement.

233
00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:13,620
But isn't it cool that you can leverage your experience in a way that could?

234
00:13:13,930 --> 00:13:17,060
contribute to solving part of the biggest problems that we face as a society.

235
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:18,240
That is pretty cool.

236
00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:18,780
Yeah.

237
00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:21,780
Uh, so yeah, that, that's part of what motivates me today.

238
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:24,880
What's most misunderstood about what you do?

239
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:32,489
I guess, well, the most misunderstood thing about what I do is, is, is that it's easy to do because I just rock up and give a bit of advice and...

240
00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:33,140
Is it easy?

241
00:13:33,170 --> 00:13:34,000
It's not easy?

242
00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:35,180
Jesus, no, it's not.

243
00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:38,610
But if it'd be easy, it wouldn't be much of a challenge.

244
00:13:38,610 --> 00:13:42,090
It's like, it's like, hang on, what is the solution to this particular problem?

245
00:13:42,899 --> 00:13:47,650
And the entrepreneur has been struggling with this for quite some time, and they're closest to the business, they should be

246
00:13:47,650 --> 00:13:51,930
anyway, they are, it's their business, and they're closest to this, and you're meant to come in and give them the answer.

247
00:13:51,930 --> 00:13:57,160
Well, It's like going to a psychiatrist, isn't it?

248
00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,449
You never get a psychiatrist to answer the questions.

249
00:13:59,459 --> 00:14:00,619
They always go, well, what do you think?

250
00:14:01,949 --> 00:14:03,439
So there's a little bit of that involved.

251
00:14:03,439 --> 00:14:05,259
It's like, you know, well, you're as close as it is.

252
00:14:05,259 --> 00:14:12,869
So it's usually a question of what's wrong about your implementation or how your implementation can be better as opposed to the concept is wrong, right?

253
00:14:13,099 --> 00:14:18,370
So helping a business, it's not really about me coming in with an answer.

254
00:14:18,774 --> 00:14:26,244
I think it's me sometimes helping a business, helping an entrepreneur making a better judgment about all the different options they have available to them.

255
00:14:26,264 --> 00:14:30,555
Because they probably thought about all the options, probably putting a few of the wrong levers.

256
00:14:30,675 --> 00:14:31,824
Maybe there's a better way to do something.

257
00:14:31,824 --> 00:14:35,065
Maybe they've, you know, just got the wrong mix of what really is successful.

258
00:14:35,545 --> 00:14:38,615
Like there's five things that are successful, but they're doing 20 things.

259
00:14:38,745 --> 00:14:40,545
The chances are they're probably on the wrong five.

260
00:14:40,815 --> 00:14:43,495
You know, uh, or not focusing on the right five.

261
00:14:43,505 --> 00:14:43,935
You know what I mean?

262
00:14:43,935 --> 00:14:45,275
So it's really a judgment call.

263
00:14:45,644 --> 00:14:49,045
So, you know, the entrepreneur knows business best of all.

264
00:14:49,054 --> 00:14:53,224
Therefore, can I help the entrepreneur to be the best entrepreneur they possibly can be?

265
00:14:53,224 --> 00:14:54,785
And I made those sort of decisions.

266
00:14:54,804 --> 00:14:55,605
And that's not easy.

267
00:14:56,025 --> 00:14:56,954
I don't think it is.

268
00:14:56,955 --> 00:15:01,165
There's a lot of value added involved in just like really trying to figure out what the answer is.

269
00:15:01,875 --> 00:15:03,354
Also, some of this stuff is very fundamental.

270
00:15:03,385 --> 00:15:04,415
You can spot it straight away.

271
00:15:05,095 --> 00:15:06,635
And that is probably easy.

272
00:15:06,765 --> 00:15:08,005
But that solves a bit of the problem.

273
00:15:08,425 --> 00:15:09,725
But it's very satisfying, right?

274
00:15:09,725 --> 00:15:18,314
Because, you know, I kind of get the same thing in terms of I like working with startups partly because you really feel like you're

275
00:15:18,335 --> 00:15:26,884
adding some value because, you know, they normally know loads about their thing, but they have no clue, for example, about legals.

276
00:15:27,485 --> 00:15:28,185
Yeah, of course.

277
00:15:28,335 --> 00:15:34,275
And, and so it's great to be able to help somebody do something and really give them something of value.

278
00:15:35,734 --> 00:15:38,795
And now, a quick word from our sponsor.

279
00:15:39,615 --> 00:15:46,494
Business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ori Clark, straight talking financial and legal advice since 1935.

280
00:15:46,784 --> 00:15:48,925
You can find us at oriclark.

281
00:15:48,925 --> 00:15:49,214
com.

282
00:15:50,564 --> 00:15:55,875
What do you think is the biggest mistake you've made in your career, or your biggest mistake generally?

283
00:15:56,355 --> 00:15:57,715
I guess the biggest failure.

284
00:15:58,170 --> 00:16:01,380
It was a different question, I suppose, was the middle of business, which failed.

285
00:16:01,380 --> 00:16:04,080
It was, it was a failure, you know, which, which business was this?

286
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,460
So there were three businesses that I set up.

287
00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:05,670
What?

288
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:08,370
The first was New Covent Garden Soup here in the uk.

289
00:16:08,610 --> 00:16:13,080
The third was Little Dish here in the uk, both of which were successful in the context.

290
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,660
We had successful ex exits as easy way to define success.

291
00:16:16,290 --> 00:16:22,530
Uh, but by, by, but by comparison, the middle business, which was Glencoe Foods, which was in the States, was a failure.

292
00:16:22,740 --> 00:16:23,700
'cause we pulled outta the business.

293
00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:24,660
We never got to exit.

294
00:16:25,050 --> 00:16:25,430
So I call.

295
00:16:26,285 --> 00:16:28,995
Uh, a little summary of my career, my shit sandwich.

296
00:16:29,435 --> 00:16:32,915
You've got two nice pieces of focaccia on either side and a lot of shit in between.

297
00:16:33,515 --> 00:16:41,775
However, back to the point about failure, I learned more from that five years of real struggle and difficulty and strife in the States than I did from the two ten year periods either side.

298
00:16:41,854 --> 00:16:43,755
And did it make a difference?

299
00:16:44,265 --> 00:16:46,505
to what you did with Little Dish, having had that.

300
00:16:46,564 --> 00:16:50,785
It not only made a difference what I did with Little Dish, but it was the whole reason for doing Little Dish.

301
00:16:50,905 --> 00:16:53,455
Because we did a lot right in this stage.

302
00:16:53,455 --> 00:16:54,175
We got a lot right.

303
00:16:54,175 --> 00:16:56,425
It wasn't like it was like a complete failure from the start.

304
00:16:56,515 --> 00:16:59,494
If it was that, it might have been easier, because you just walk away earlier.

305
00:16:59,534 --> 00:17:02,154
But we had a lot of success, so you keep trying to replicate the success.

306
00:17:02,185 --> 00:17:03,515
What was the business in the US?

307
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,790
It was a very similar business to the business in the UK, so it was even worse.

308
00:17:07,810 --> 00:17:10,170
It was like New Covent Garden Soup Company Mark 2.

309
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:10,700
Right.

310
00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:12,700
Fresh soup in a carton for the US market.

311
00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:13,479
Right, right, right.

312
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,480
And if anybody should have known anything about fresh soup, it should have been me.

313
00:17:16,829 --> 00:17:17,599
And that's what I said.

314
00:17:17,650 --> 00:17:22,719
I said, this is the other thing, I went out there, took some shareholders with me, went to the stage, raised more money in the US on

315
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:30,899
the basis that Just had a great exit based on, not obviously exclusively, but a lot of the time what I had done and my contribution.

316
00:17:30,899 --> 00:17:31,810
So let's just do it in the States.

317
00:17:31,810 --> 00:17:32,729
How difficult can it be?

318
00:17:33,379 --> 00:17:34,360
Very difficult is the answer.

319
00:17:34,879 --> 00:17:39,039
Um, so it was a lot of sort of trust in me in terms of, you know, shareholding.

320
00:17:39,099 --> 00:17:44,729
I really should know, uh, as much about fresh soup as anybody needs to know.

321
00:17:44,730 --> 00:17:45,649
And the answer is I did.

322
00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:46,449
Absolutely.

323
00:17:46,689 --> 00:17:49,449
But that's not the whole answer in that you still have to make the right decisions.

324
00:17:49,479 --> 00:17:50,639
But you go back to...

325
00:17:51,449 --> 00:17:53,580
You need to know about your market, presumably.

326
00:17:53,580 --> 00:17:55,889
Yeah, we, we did a lot, we did, we did a lot of research.

327
00:17:55,889 --> 00:17:59,970
We, we made soup in West London and flew it on Virgin Airlines out to, out to the West Coast.

328
00:18:00,509 --> 00:18:03,499
Had a man in a van drive around so we could get knowledge, local knowledge.

329
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:05,149
So we, we, we did have local knowledge.

330
00:18:05,339 --> 00:18:07,280
Anyway, there was lots of reasons why it didn't work.

331
00:18:07,609 --> 00:18:10,960
Um, and it culminated in us having to pull the business after four years.

332
00:18:11,260 --> 00:18:19,449
Now, that's a real kind of killer, especially when you come to the point of maybe, you know, talk about entrepreneurs having ego, you know, I've done this and, uh, I can do it again.

333
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,930
And everybody believed that I could, and then suddenly I didn't.

334
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:23,470
So I let a lot of people down.

335
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,020
But particularly I let myself down.

336
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,670
And there was no way, coming back to your question, there was no way I was going to go out on a failure.

337
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,460
Especially as I had a success.

338
00:18:30,460 --> 00:18:33,080
You know, failure is a very kind of interesting situation.

339
00:18:33,090 --> 00:18:35,519
You're left there in a very introspective place, thinking...

340
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,010
I wonder, did this fail because of me?

341
00:18:38,010 --> 00:18:38,600
Yeah.

342
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:39,120
Right?

343
00:18:39,170 --> 00:18:40,330
Or despite of me?

344
00:18:40,330 --> 00:18:41,840
Well, I wonder if it was a success.

345
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,320
Initially, despite because of me.

346
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,340
It could have been much more successful if I hadn't been involved.

347
00:18:46,790 --> 00:18:48,639
You might have played all sorts of tricks on you.

348
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:49,570
So you do think about that.

349
00:18:49,790 --> 00:18:51,710
You've got to dispel all that because that's just wrong, right?

350
00:18:51,879 --> 00:18:53,330
This is, you know, that's not true.

351
00:18:53,699 --> 00:18:54,689
But give me the evidence.

352
00:18:54,699 --> 00:19:04,429
So I said, right, you know what, um, I'm going to have to pull myself out of this situation, which was a failed business, which I really shouldn't have been, following very similar business to the successful one.

353
00:19:04,649 --> 00:19:08,570
And I'm going to have to prove to others, but really prove it to myself, that I could do it again.

354
00:19:08,909 --> 00:19:11,220
So that was the real motivation to do the third business.

355
00:19:11,479 --> 00:19:14,689
I have no idea if the second business had been, had not been a failure.

356
00:19:15,024 --> 00:19:17,114
Would there have ever been a third business?

357
00:19:17,165 --> 00:19:19,824
Because you had two failures, two successes in a row, you might say that's enough.

358
00:19:19,824 --> 00:19:21,155
You'd have been a permanent suit man.

359
00:19:21,435 --> 00:19:24,064
I would have been, maybe a one trick pony, God knows.

360
00:19:24,074 --> 00:19:30,754
But, but the motivation emotionally from, from, you talk about failure not being a great place to be, but a good place to have been.

361
00:19:30,764 --> 00:19:31,854
It really hurt like hell.

362
00:19:32,064 --> 00:19:33,955
So it really motivated me to do something else.

363
00:19:34,529 --> 00:19:35,419
In the food space.

364
00:19:35,419 --> 00:19:38,460
I had no idea what it was going to be, but I figured it out and that was Little Dish.

365
00:19:38,610 --> 00:19:42,720
And that happily turned out to be, you know, quite a good business and we came out with a good exit.

366
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,110
And that took me from 2006, no, 2007 to 2017.

367
00:19:47,379 --> 00:19:48,920
So again, it was another ten year project.

368
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,109
Always ten years, yeah.

369
00:19:51,139 --> 00:19:52,830
What's your passion outside of work?

370
00:19:53,709 --> 00:19:54,570
I don't have any time.

371
00:19:54,865 --> 00:19:55,315
It's not left.

372
00:19:55,375 --> 00:19:56,415
No hobbies, no nothing.

373
00:19:56,415 --> 00:19:57,465
I use all my passion.

374
00:19:57,485 --> 00:19:58,375
You look very healthy.

375
00:19:58,385 --> 00:19:58,445
Thank you.

376
00:19:58,445 --> 00:20:00,305
You're not a sportsman or a runner or...

377
00:20:00,375 --> 00:20:03,325
Well, I used to do a lot of it, so I kind of gone back to that.

378
00:20:03,325 --> 00:20:11,254
I live just outside Munich, so it's, it's a great place to, you know, we don't have to deal with the weather conditions we have in Ireland, which is why we all go to the pub so quick, so often.

379
00:20:11,704 --> 00:20:19,014
And we go to the pub in Munich as well quite a lot, but, you know, the Alps are around the corner and we ski a lot in this winter and we hike a lot in the summer and we're out on the bikes and...

380
00:20:19,014 --> 00:20:20,315
It's quite an outdoors lifestyle.

381
00:20:20,315 --> 00:20:21,685
It is, CoachingBadminton.

382
00:20:21,685 --> 00:20:22,939
com It's beautiful usually.

383
00:20:22,939 --> 00:20:25,449
In Bavaria in particular, but it's much more reliable.

384
00:20:25,469 --> 00:20:28,919
You can plan to do something in the summer outdoors and most of the time do it.

385
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,649
Whereas in Ireland, or the UK, it's like most of the time you have to have a plan B.

386
00:20:33,709 --> 00:20:34,069
Yeah, exactly.

387
00:20:34,069 --> 00:20:34,469
And you know what?

388
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:35,929
You just default to plan B.

389
00:20:36,949 --> 00:20:40,739
So, so, so that allows me to do an awful lot more.

390
00:20:41,770 --> 00:20:43,659
What's the worst advice you've ever been given?

391
00:20:44,170 --> 00:20:46,780
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

392
00:20:47,070 --> 00:20:47,780
Oh, really?

393
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,150
You think that's terrible advice?

394
00:20:49,150 --> 00:20:50,610
It's ludicrous advice.

395
00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:51,640
It really is.

396
00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:56,570
Like, who would ever do anything if it wasn't, uh, you know, if it worked?

397
00:20:56,570 --> 00:20:57,589
Because you can still make it better.

398
00:20:58,139 --> 00:20:59,219
Well, of course you can make it better.

399
00:20:59,419 --> 00:21:03,720
You know, just because the way we do things is the way to continue to do things is ludicrous in the first place.

400
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:04,670
It's just the way it works.

401
00:21:04,670 --> 00:21:05,540
It's the status quo.

402
00:21:05,870 --> 00:21:10,330
You know, the status quo works quite well, especially for the establishment.

403
00:21:10,659 --> 00:21:20,709
But if you're an entrepreneur, and if you're a startup, you're trying to challenge the status quo, then you don't want to, you know, you don't want to continue with how you've done it for years.

404
00:21:21,449 --> 00:21:23,679
buying liquid soup in a can.

405
00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:25,439
That works, nothing wrong with that.

406
00:21:25,699 --> 00:21:30,399
But here's a whole bunch of things that are better, uh, uh, called fresh soup, in a carton.

407
00:21:30,659 --> 00:21:32,269
Now, it costs 1.

408
00:21:32,270 --> 00:21:36,050
20, and, uh, what goes down in the can, 33 pence, back in 1987.

409
00:21:37,350 --> 00:21:39,189
So, so there's a huge premium attached to it.

410
00:21:39,790 --> 00:21:45,250
But listen, it's not the price of progress, it's not the price of making things better, it's not the price of premium.

411
00:21:45,489 --> 00:21:48,219
Um, so, so, you can always make things better, but if it ain't...

412
00:21:48,555 --> 00:21:49,585
Bro, don't fix it.

413
00:21:49,585 --> 00:21:52,845
It's like, that's just such a level of mediocrity attached with that.

414
00:21:52,885 --> 00:21:56,075
I think it only applies to IT, if you ask me.

415
00:21:57,245 --> 00:21:59,775
If your IT is functioning, don't mess with it.

416
00:21:59,885 --> 00:22:00,935
You know, just get on with it.

417
00:22:02,095 --> 00:22:04,294
And what's the best advice you've ever been given?

418
00:22:04,495 --> 00:22:07,769
The best advice I've ever been given, and I'm pretty sure I didn't believe it at the time.

419
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:13,159
was that, um, investment is 80 percent the person and 20 percent the idea.

420
00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:16,360
I used to think that's right, that can't be right, it's got to be the other way around.

421
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:20,510
It's all about the idea, it's all about the consumer insight, it's all about this, you know, idea.

422
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,659
And, of course, without an idea, you never get off the ground, because you mustn't grab yourself around.

423
00:22:24,959 --> 00:22:28,639
Um, but it comes back to my belief that it's all about the resilience of the entrepreneur.

424
00:22:29,230 --> 00:22:32,830
And I remember exactly the person who said it to me way back, it was, it was, uh, Apex.

425
00:22:33,345 --> 00:22:36,015
Who back then were a pretty big VC firm.

426
00:22:36,075 --> 00:22:37,935
These days are astronomical VC firm.

427
00:22:38,275 --> 00:22:40,605
But they invested in our business way back in the day.

428
00:22:40,605 --> 00:22:42,375
And that was the only food business they had.

429
00:22:42,375 --> 00:22:43,695
I think the only food business they ever had.

430
00:22:43,695 --> 00:22:45,255
So it was almost a mistake.

431
00:22:45,745 --> 00:22:46,415
But they invested.

432
00:22:46,415 --> 00:22:51,585
And I remember Alan Cohen, who's the um, the chairman of APAC saying that to me.

433
00:22:51,585 --> 00:22:53,005
It's all about, it's all about the individual.

434
00:22:53,325 --> 00:22:55,905
I always say, always think, um, respect capital.

435
00:22:55,935 --> 00:22:58,095
You know, people can be like, I've got the idea.

436
00:22:58,485 --> 00:23:00,125
You know, they're just bringing the money.

437
00:23:00,125 --> 00:23:07,015
It's like, if you tried to get a hundred grand together, if you tried to get a hundred thousand pounds, you know, it's very hard to have capital.

438
00:23:07,015 --> 00:23:13,505
So I feel, you know, people get, you know, ideas or we can all come up with an idea with a bottle of whiskey in enough hours, you know.

439
00:23:13,725 --> 00:23:17,164
No, no, I mean, I think there are a bunch of critical ingredients.

440
00:23:17,174 --> 00:23:23,875
And I sometimes ask me, what are the, you know, what are the important elements about making an investment, purely from the investment point of view, which is the same.

441
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,700
Set of ingredients or elements you need to consider if you're looking for investment.

442
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,440
And there's probably 20 things.

443
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,440
Let's just say there are 20 things you'd want to consider.

444
00:23:31,490 --> 00:23:33,300
Doing due diligence and making sure they're right.

445
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:35,300
Ticking your box and being comfortable with it.

446
00:23:35,870 --> 00:23:40,529
But actually, I'd say of those 20 things, 17 of them could be wrong.

447
00:23:40,690 --> 00:23:42,830
And you could still decide to make the investment.

448
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,290
Because you could probably put those things right.

449
00:23:44,290 --> 00:23:47,440
Now, 17 things to put right are rather a lot of things to put right.

450
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:48,300
So you probably wouldn't.

451
00:23:48,510 --> 00:23:50,800
But 17 things could be writeable.

452
00:23:51,669 --> 00:23:53,960
The three things that are if they're wrong, you probably walk away.

453
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:55,379
from because they're not writable.

454
00:23:55,530 --> 00:23:57,840
Our product, we deal with meeting a consumer need.

455
00:23:57,889 --> 00:24:00,330
You know, a really, that product does meet a consumer need.

456
00:24:00,670 --> 00:24:02,750
And if it doesn't, well, why are you having a conversation?

457
00:24:03,330 --> 00:24:04,380
Secondly, scalability.

458
00:24:04,420 --> 00:24:07,460
So there are lots of those consumers out there that would be willing to pay that price.

459
00:24:07,470 --> 00:24:09,500
So you can scale and the unit economics works.

460
00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:10,399
So that's scalability.

461
00:24:10,399 --> 00:24:11,620
The universe is big enough.

462
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:12,930
At the price you're going to charge.

463
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,190
And the third is yet again the entrepreneur.

464
00:24:15,909 --> 00:24:18,350
And if any of those three things are wrong, walk away.

465
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,860
Because especially the entrepreneur, you're never going to fix that.

466
00:24:20,860 --> 00:24:21,449
Entrepreneurs?

467
00:24:21,550 --> 00:24:22,439
I mean it's not necessarily.

468
00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:23,360
Oh yeah, of course.

469
00:24:23,699 --> 00:24:25,020
Team, entrepreneur, entrepreneurs.

470
00:24:25,020 --> 00:24:26,909
Oh, who's going to make things happen?

471
00:24:26,980 --> 00:24:27,120
Yeah.

472
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:29,100
Great idea, scalable, yeah it works.

473
00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:32,330
But who's going to make it happen despite all the setbacks that I said before.

474
00:24:32,330 --> 00:24:34,040
All the no's you're going to get.

475
00:24:34,334 --> 00:24:36,374
You know, and we got so many at Newcombe Garden.

476
00:24:37,564 --> 00:24:41,274
You're just going to not take, yeah, but thick skin, not take no for an answer and say, I'm going to do it anyway.

477
00:24:41,344 --> 00:24:46,324
You know, I've got some clients at the moment who will remain nameless, who have a fantastic idea.

478
00:24:46,324 --> 00:24:48,094
It's a really, really good idea.

479
00:24:48,495 --> 00:24:51,844
But they've been talking about it for about two and a half years now.

480
00:24:52,754 --> 00:24:56,074
You know, we did a term sheet for investment about 18 months ago.

481
00:24:56,740 --> 00:25:03,660
And I'm just kind of like, you're absolutely right, you've got to be able to push it to that next step and actually do something about it.

482
00:25:03,820 --> 00:25:11,379
I think part of the problem sometimes is getting to perfection before you do anything, and how do you know what perfection is until you actually do it?

483
00:25:12,349 --> 00:25:21,190
I remember I had a conversation, was it yesterday, and I kind of started off by saying, I haven't really figured this out, but by the end of this conversation, it really has helped me to figure this out.

484
00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:23,020
So it's kind of an iterative conversation.

485
00:25:23,180 --> 00:25:23,980
This is what I think I need.

486
00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:25,540
Let me explain my problem.

487
00:25:26,020 --> 00:25:27,370
Which isn't very well defined yet.

488
00:25:27,910 --> 00:25:30,170
It's funny how talking out loud is so important sometimes.

489
00:25:30,290 --> 00:25:33,889
Talking out loud, and then you know, a guy or girl comes in and goes, Yeah, and you build on the idea.

490
00:25:33,889 --> 00:25:36,420
That's really, actually, that's what I meant to say.

491
00:25:37,029 --> 00:25:37,450
That helps me.

492
00:25:37,710 --> 00:25:40,180
And by the end of it, we ended up with, okay, so your problem is this.

493
00:25:40,180 --> 00:25:41,510
And this is how you might want to solve it.

494
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:42,879
And I might be able to help, or I might not.

495
00:25:44,069 --> 00:25:48,830
Conversate, rather than, I'm not going to have that conversation until I really figure out what I'm trying to ask this person.

496
00:25:49,979 --> 00:25:51,070
And then guess what?

497
00:25:51,070 --> 00:25:52,209
You may never have that conversation.

498
00:25:52,550 --> 00:25:55,600
Because you're relying on just yourself to come up with the answer.

499
00:25:55,649 --> 00:25:59,860
So perfecting everything before you launch, you've got to have a few things right.

500
00:25:59,959 --> 00:26:02,429
Otherwise, you know, you just go, but when is enough?

501
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:11,170
to get going and get started and, and, and then iterate along the way, uh, because you might think you know who the consumer is, you might be the consumer.

502
00:26:11,170 --> 00:26:15,939
This is the great, the great fallacy is a lot of the time that in the food industry somebody comes up with an idea because

503
00:26:15,940 --> 00:26:20,580
they're really frustrated the product doesn't exist because they're trying to find it themselves and it doesn't exist.

504
00:26:20,590 --> 00:26:24,900
So they say, Oh my God, there's a marketplace, let me give up my day job and go and do it.

505
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:26,820
And they know the consumer inside out.

506
00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:30,510
The problem is they think they know the consumer inside out or they are one version of the consumer.

507
00:26:30,579 --> 00:26:30,849
Yeah.

508
00:26:30,889 --> 00:26:32,290
So I'm going to continue to define.

509
00:26:32,639 --> 00:26:33,770
Uh, meeting my need.

510
00:26:34,639 --> 00:26:36,360
And they never ask the actual consumer group.

511
00:26:36,370 --> 00:26:38,860
They never even define the consumer group, what their need is.

512
00:26:38,879 --> 00:26:41,190
Because it might be a bit different to their need.

513
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:42,680
And over time, guess what?

514
00:26:42,850 --> 00:26:49,180
Tangentially, their needs and the consumer group that they're trying to satisfy, their needs diverge.

515
00:26:49,489 --> 00:26:51,920
So, consumer insight is not about what I think.

516
00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:54,700
ever, even if I'm my best owned customer.

517
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,470
Consumer insight is what the consumer needs.

518
00:26:56,939 --> 00:27:01,119
And I think if you can, if you can understand those, and they evolve as well, so you've got to keep up with them.

519
00:27:01,659 --> 00:27:08,750
And trends are important and all the rest of it, but, you know, lack of familiarity with the consumer never makes up for any decisions you can make on your own.

520
00:27:08,750 --> 00:27:12,229
So, if, if you have an idea, great, but get out there with it and test it.

521
00:27:12,550 --> 00:27:14,860
And you might be kicked right back, it's a rubbish idea.

522
00:27:14,910 --> 00:27:17,840
Well, okay, that's good feedback, let me take that forward.

523
00:27:17,970 --> 00:27:19,970
So don't try to perfect before you do anything.

524
00:27:19,990 --> 00:27:23,299
Get it to a point where it's ready enough, and then get it out there.

525
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,780
And is there any advice that you would have given your younger self?

526
00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:28,790
Loads.

527
00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:29,939
Absolutely loads.

528
00:27:29,959 --> 00:27:32,330
The problem is, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have taken any of it.

529
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:32,920
Okay.

530
00:27:33,210 --> 00:27:33,470
Yes.

531
00:27:33,820 --> 00:27:34,280
You know what?

532
00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:35,520
It's so, it's so true.

533
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,650
It's like, it's what you were saying earlier, Andy, about ego.

534
00:27:37,650 --> 00:27:40,000
It's like, what do you know about it?

535
00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:41,770
Well, actually, a lot.

536
00:27:42,345 --> 00:27:49,435
But I only know that now, and if I was, you know, I was very young when I started Newcomen Garden, I was like, what was I, 23 or something, or, you know, straight out of university.

537
00:27:49,945 --> 00:27:55,684
So there's a bit of ego, there's a bit of all that to get things moving, to get things started despite being told by everybody you're wrong.

538
00:27:55,844 --> 00:28:00,965
You have to be egotistic and say Yeah, father, son, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go in a completely different career as well.

539
00:28:00,965 --> 00:28:03,725
Well, I've just, I've just asked the expert and they've told me I'm wrong.

540
00:28:04,150 --> 00:28:04,750
But you know what?

541
00:28:04,830 --> 00:28:06,240
The expert's wrong, I'm going to do it anyway.

542
00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:07,560
That, where does that come from?

543
00:28:07,620 --> 00:28:09,040
Don't believe the expert, certainly.

544
00:28:09,060 --> 00:28:12,680
So then when you're trying to take advice, is, well, you're a bunch of experts.

545
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,909
I'm not suggesting, I'm not trying to be Michael Gove here, because, you know, we don't need any experts.

546
00:28:16,910 --> 00:28:19,569
Of course we need expertise to provide, you know, you guys do a lot.

547
00:28:19,569 --> 00:28:22,729
Nobody wants to be Michael Gove, just to be clear.

548
00:28:22,730 --> 00:28:25,990
But the point about it is, what advice would I give to my younger self?

549
00:28:26,030 --> 00:28:28,630
Oh, loads of stuff, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have listened.

550
00:28:29,860 --> 00:28:33,250
Any recommendations of anything to read, watch, or listen?

551
00:28:33,310 --> 00:28:35,530
I'm the last person to ask, really, about that.

552
00:28:35,530 --> 00:28:38,389
I keep abreast of things in the food industry by reading the grocery.

553
00:28:38,389 --> 00:28:39,090
Are you a reader?

554
00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:39,810
Are you a big reader?

555
00:28:39,810 --> 00:28:40,139
I'm not.

556
00:28:40,259 --> 00:28:40,539
I'm not.

557
00:28:40,540 --> 00:28:42,489
Are you another dyslexic, do you think?

558
00:28:42,509 --> 00:28:44,899
I don't know if I'm dyslexic, but I don't bother.

559
00:28:45,060 --> 00:28:51,940
to read and, and, and I, you know, other members of my family and sisters particularly read constantly and they just don't understand how can you not read.

560
00:28:52,430 --> 00:28:56,919
So I just don't, I just kind of, you know, pick stuff up along the way and Simon Sinek, is it Simon Sinek?

561
00:28:57,510 --> 00:28:57,650
Sinek.

562
00:28:57,690 --> 00:28:58,410
Sinek.

563
00:28:58,550 --> 00:28:58,780
Sinek.

564
00:28:58,790 --> 00:28:59,950
He talked about a common sense.

565
00:29:00,250 --> 00:29:02,049
It's a book, I don't know, he's a, he writes books.

566
00:29:02,050 --> 00:29:04,290
He does a lot of good stuff.

567
00:29:04,399 --> 00:29:05,379
Do you know him at all?

568
00:29:05,770 --> 00:29:13,149
I haven't met him, no, but, but, you know, I've, I've come across him, literally, and I don't kind of root him out to purposely go and listen to what he has to say, but when I do come across him,

569
00:29:13,439 --> 00:29:24,620
I always find he's saying stuff that is relevant to the situation, and he seems to have an insight as to what's important for people to think about in a common sense kind of way, and I often think.

570
00:29:25,820 --> 00:29:29,240
Myself included sometimes, but I often think, you know, common sense isn't that common.

571
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,380
You know, are we trying to overcomplicate stuff?

572
00:29:31,390 --> 00:29:32,260
I agree with that.

573
00:29:32,540 --> 00:29:37,080
People who are really good at having their feet on the ground, it's a rare skill.

574
00:29:37,570 --> 00:29:41,110
And this guy talks about how to do that a lot, well at least when I've ever heard of it.

575
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:43,620
Overcomplicating things is one of the worst things in the world.

576
00:29:43,950 --> 00:29:51,810
And so that was this week's episode of BWB Extra, and we'll be back tomorrow with our finale for the week, The Business or Bullshit Quiz.

577
00:29:52,140 --> 00:29:52,720
Stay tuned.