WEBVTT
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Music.
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Welcome to Pilates Elephants. I'm Raphael Bender. I'm here with my friend Heath
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Lander. Hey, Heath. Hey, Raf.
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Can Pilates make you stronger? Yes or no?
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Absolutely, it can. Okay, good talk. See you later. See you later.
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So that's a little bit of a topical question going around. We want to unpack
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that today, dear listener.
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And, uh, turns out the answer is only if you do it right.
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So, um.
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Where do we start with this one? I think, well, when, when we, I think, I think,
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firstly, I think when we were both growing up in as polite baby Pilates instructors,
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we were taught that every exercise has a particular spring setting, you know,
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two, two red springs for short spine three to four for footwork you know two
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for hundreds whatever it was,
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yeah and you know some of
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those had a little bit of variation like if you know if you couldn't do like
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kneeling arms on one spring you could do it on half a spring you know but like
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heaven forbid you do it on three springs i mean that was just inconceivable
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you know um uh and so there was this basic concept that,
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you have a spring setting that is right for a person.
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So most people do kneeling arms on one spring, but some people will need to
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do on a half spring and that's totally fine if that's the right number for them.
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But there was no concept that you start on a half spring and then you get to one spring.
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It was like, well, what happens after you get to one spring?
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Do you just stay there forever? And the answer was, yeah, basically that's what you do.
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Stay on one spring forever. Yeah.
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And when I've thought long and hard on that,
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I think I've got, there's two things I think about with that and the things
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that, and talk about in workshops is, uh, one, maybe the rationale is that you're developing a practice.
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So like more like, like a, a sequence, like a yoga asana sequence, vinyasa or whatever.
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Well, like a Tai Chi form or a Kung Fu, you know, form or a Karate Kana, you know?
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Yeah, so once you've established the movement sequence, then you just forever
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more drill more deeply into the nuance of how you're doing the movement rather
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than where you're adding load. Yeah.
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So you're going deeper into the practice, into the work, capital W. Capital W. Yeah.
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And, I mean, you and I both started in martial arts. Yeah.
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Or maybe you started in yoga. Did you do yoga first in martial arts?
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We both started martial arts.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we both started martial arts. And martial arts,
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we both started in Chinese martial arts where you did a lot of forms.
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And a form is basically just, dear listener, it's like just a sequence of,
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you know, kung fu moves that you do, you know, and it's the same sequence that
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you do over and over, very lots and lots, thousands and thousands and thousands
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of repetitions of, you know, this flowing sequence.
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And the idea is to make it more and more flowing, more and more precise as you
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do it over the years and the decades until you become a master of it.
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And so that's kind of the way that I think, you know, Pilates is often taught,
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certainly not by everyone.
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And there is a real beauty and value in that type of practice,
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which is it becomes a moving meditation.
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And you, you know, get into a flow state and you do start to really tune into
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your body and tune into just the rhythm of the movement.
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And, you know, so there is a real beauty and value in that, but it doesn't make you stronger.
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Doesn't make you stronger. I think just quickly as a sidebar,
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I think one of the things that this, you know, the debates that we have in Pilates land,
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sometimes a little bit reductionist, like it's almost become sort of factionalized,
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like, you know, the reform is a wildly variable tool.
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So you can do a flowing self-practice, which is about exactly what you just described.
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And you can do movements under varying loads to make yourself stronger or you
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can also do things to work on your flexibility.
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But don't I have to just choose one camp?
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Well, that seems to be the kind of implied thing that we all have to be of a camp.
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But I personally think, yeah, I think it's a, the tool itself is such a kind
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of weird and nuanced thing that to say it's just one thing is odd.
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Well, I think what's so cool about it is it's not just one thing. I mean- Yeah, exactly.
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It's so versatile. That's its superpower, right? It's not the best tool for improving strength.
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It's not the best tool for improving flexibility. It's not, but it's a really
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good tool for both of those things and many other things besides.
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Right. And it also has the, I mean, you just mentioned two of the three big,
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well, the three dimensions of movement and the other is neuromotor control,
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you've got an unstable surface with a horizontal force vector.
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That's pretty cool for stability, whatever we call stability training.
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It's pretty freaking cool.
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Yeah. All right. So, dear listener, everything in life is a trade-off.
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There's no perfect solution.
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And every form of exercise, you know, whether it's using bands or body weight
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or barbells or machine weights or a Pilates reformer or a Cadillac or a stability
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chair or whatever, they all have their trade-offs.
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They're better at some things at the expense of being worse at other things.
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You know, so with, say, for example, bands, well, they're amazing.
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They're so flexible. Like you can fly and carry them in your hotel room and whatever.
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But it's like you can't just can't create enough resistance with them to develop
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serious strength you know and if you did there's a real chance of them snapping
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and hitting you in the eye,
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um and so you know they're good for some things and not
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good you know not as good for other things and and that come one comes at the
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expense of the other and then you've got something at the opposite end of the
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spectrum like you've got a massive like weight stack in the gym that weighs
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a ton and you couldn't possibly take in a semi-trailer let alone on an airplane
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and it's fucking amazing for developing strength,
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but like there's no requirement for really for control and it doesn't improve your flexibility much.
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So, and then, you know, so each of these pieces of equipment has kind of some kind of superpower,
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and the superpower of the Pilates reformer is it's good, very good,
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I would say at everything, but it's not the best at anything. Yeah. Well said.
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I mean, you can't really take it on a plane. Let's, let's face it.
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It kind of sucks in that regard.
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So one thing i actually there's there's so
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much around this topic i want to i'd love
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to talk about and in some cases pick your brain
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about i was running a workshop on the weekend and it was a group of really smart
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switched on curious instructors and we were talking about layers and clusters
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and as part of that we talk about you know that you can train for specific things
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So you can do strength training,
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you can do range of motion training, you can do stability skill training.
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I'm just going to quickly sidebar here and say layers is when you start easy
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and then you do a slightly harder version, slightly harder version of the same move.
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And clusters is a sequence of moves all in the same body position without changing
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the equipment settings that you can basically, you know, alternate muscle groups
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in this without kind of jumping around all over the reformer.
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Yeah. And-
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Yes, so we're talking about that and that if you're training for strength,
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there are particular conditions you want to create.
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And if you're training for skill, there are particular conditions you want to
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create. And same for ROM.
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And the idea in that particular conversation was that we're going to work on
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layers that are oriented towards load, towards strength.
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And as we had that conversation, we said, okay, how do we measure strength?
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So we measure strength through repetitions maximum.
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So that means how many reps you can do. And then we talk about how when you,
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if you actually want to get stronger, the reps need to, you need to be able
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to do less than X, let's say 20.
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Right. So sorry, I just want to, again, hold that thought. I want to just quickly
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unpack that for a second.
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So when we say like you measure strength by how many reps you can do.
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So what we don't mean is if you can do a hundred reps, you're stronger than if you can do 20 reps.
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That's not what we mean. What we mean is you make a load so heavy that you can only do six reps, right?
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And so that's how we measure strength. If you can do seven reps with that same
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load, then you got stronger, right?
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Or if you can lift a heavier load for six reps, then you got stronger.
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Yeah. And that the measurement convention is repetitions maximum.
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So if you can do six, but physically not seven, like you actually can't do it,
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then it's six RM at that weight is your current strength. Right.
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And the weight that you use if you want to build
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strength has to be heavy enough that you physically cannot
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do and then of course this is a continuum not a a binary
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so it's somewhere around the 20 rep max
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is where you know you're getting stronger which means you physically
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can't do 21 or you physically can't do 18 and then
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the other you know beauty about that that that
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evidence is that you don't have to
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do it to complete failure so but you
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do need to do it to a point where your form dissipates
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so you lose range of motion you look a
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bit sketchy you're you know you're not making it smooth and beautiful you're
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struggling to do those last few and so that that's the conversation where i
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was having and did you want to double click on something yeah i just took again
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to briefly unpack because there's a there's a concept we've covered in detail
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in previous episodes but just in case,
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dear listener, you haven't yet listened to all 313 of the previous episodes, shame on you.
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Strength and there's a continuum. Like it's not like a certain number of reps
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will build strength and if you go one rep over that, it won't build strength.
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If you want to maximize strength, you need to lift really heavy and that means
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you can only do a very few number of reps.
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Like if you're lifting like three reps and then you can't do a fourth,
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that's going of very close to maximize your strength.
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Whereas if you can lift 50 reps, right, you're,
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probably going to, over a long enough time horizon, increase your strength by
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1%, but it's going to be far, far slower, and you're going to get much more.
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Let me just zoom out again. At the maximizing strength end of the spectrum,
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you've got basically one rep max, so just lifting the amount you can only lift once.
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That's how elite strength athletes like Olympic weightlifters train.
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They do one rep when they train.
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And then at the other end, if we go zoom all the way down to the other end,
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we've got like ultra marathons where you do like 50,000 steps, you know, in a row.
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That's one set of 50,000 reps, right?
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And you will get literally zero, possibly negative muscle growth,
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you know, from doing that, right?
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Now that is cardio, right? So strength and cardio are not different things.
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They're just on a continuum.
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They're on a continuum. And there's a crossover point somewhere in the middle
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where it's like a bit of both.
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And the crossover point turns out
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it's somewhere more than 20 reps and somewhere less than about 35 reps.
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So if you're doing more than 35 reps, it's basically just cardio.
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And if you're doing less than 20 reps, probably it's mostly strengthening.
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And if you're doing somewhere in between 20 and 35, it's probably a bit of both.
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Nice. Well said. So that idea, and in the conversation we were having is when you're.
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Programming or calling to a group class, if you're calling loads,
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and this brings us to the topic of the fixed spring setting or not,
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if you're calling loads,
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right, where people can do,
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let's say more than 20 or even more than 30 as
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is so often the case and what we mean by that dear
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listener is if you've caught a spring tension for a group and
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they're still going at 25 reps and they look okay then they
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can probably do 50 right so that's the sort of listener it's not how
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many reps you do do it's how many you could do
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that determines whether you're going to get a stimulus or not based
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on the load yeah and when
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you so when you choose loads that are at that level that
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allow people lots of reps well that would be where you
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practice the nuances of a particular movement
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or you add load add stability challenges because people have got capacity to
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absorb challenge but if you want to build strength then the movement that you
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do needs to be loaded such that let's say hopefully everyone in the room can't
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do 20 if raf's in the room he's going to do 20,
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but then if I'm in the room, I'm going to do 12 because I'm not as strong as Ralph.
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And if my mum's in the room, she's going to do two because she's not as strong as me.
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Or if we're doing, I don't know, teaser snaps, you might do 20 and I might do four.
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You know, that'd be my maximum. Yeah, yeah.
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And what I was sort of, the conversation I had with this crew that I'm trying
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to get around to recapturing was...
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Firstly loading things so that we've got it heavy
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enough that you can't do the 20 and then
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it's obviously complicated by the fact that you're teaching a group and
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everyone's got different abilities and then someone sort
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of put to put forward the point that you know
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proper strength training is really only six rm
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or heavy i can't remember if that was a six rm and i what we
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then talked about was and you've already
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said it nestled in that sidebar is if
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we're going to be serious like properly serious about
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strength training the conditions that we need and this
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is sort of a question and to you and also just a
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sharing is where does the optimal strength training happen it happens on a stable
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surface with a predictable load like a barbell that you know is what it's going
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to do and you're very familiar with the movement so you're efficient and you
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can build efficiency and so that the conversation i have with them is like they're the they're the,
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preconditions for optimal strength training plus the load.
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So stability, predictability, and familiarity with the movement.
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I would say, yeah, so some degree of stability.
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Like, again, these things are not binary. They're a continuum.
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, this is the interesting thing about
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all of this, and there's so many threads in my head about this topic at the
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moment. So when we look at this on the reformer, it's a very unstable surface in a lot of movements.
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So like I say, a diagonal strap pull or wood chopper, as it's often called, right?
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So I'm going up on a high knee with… Right. Well, you've got multiple layers
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or dimensions of instability because the carriage is moving in one direction
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and that's unstable when you're on it.
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And so then you're changing position yourself. and so there's inertia from your
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body, plus the strap is unstable in all, you know, in all planes.
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So yeah, there's multiple layers of instability there. Whereas if you're on
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a, if you're doing a like bench press on a, you know, on a stable bench,
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the barbell's pretty unstable.
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Like the very heavy object that can go and move in any direction really wants
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to move down, but you know, it could go anyway.
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But you're on a stable surface, so the barbell's the only unstable thing.
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Whereas on a reformer, like your legs and your arms, potentially in a woodchopper
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or kneeling arms or whatever, are both attached to unstable surfaces.
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Yeah. And you're being essentially pulled in opposite directions.
00:16:47.817 --> 00:16:51.757
The springs are pulling your knees one way and the straps pulling your arms another way. Right.
00:16:52.956 --> 00:16:58.616
So you've got this highly unstable movement. And so then thinking of that as
00:16:58.616 --> 00:17:06.296
a strength training context is kind of flawed because the major problem you're solving is balance.
00:17:07.256 --> 00:17:14.156
So then it's the, but then the paradox of that is the more familiar you become
00:17:14.156 --> 00:17:17.116
with the movement, the more efficient you are at stabilizing,
00:17:17.136 --> 00:17:18.496
the more load you can tolerate.
00:17:18.736 --> 00:17:22.396
So if you wanted, so that movement like a wood chopper, so you're kneeling sideways
00:17:22.396 --> 00:17:26.476
on the carriage, you've got a strap in two hands and you're,
00:17:26.516 --> 00:17:28.916
you know, twisting towards the foot bar, you know.
00:17:29.876 --> 00:17:36.136
And so, you know, if you wanted to bias that towards more strength development,
00:17:36.356 --> 00:17:42.076
which would come at the expense of less motor control, right, development,
00:17:42.436 --> 00:17:47.796
you would sit on your heels so that you reduce the instability.
00:17:48.176 --> 00:17:51.816
And now that wouldn't eliminate the instability, but it reduces it significantly.
00:17:51.816 --> 00:17:56.356
And then you would add another full spring or more because, because of that
00:17:56.356 --> 00:18:00.756
increased instability, you can now move more load or you would just grasp the
00:18:00.756 --> 00:18:05.076
strap a bit closer down the rope towards the pulleys, which would achieve the same thing.
00:18:06.276 --> 00:18:08.636
Great. Exactly. So yeah.
00:18:10.582 --> 00:18:15.862
So then the question then is, because what have we said? Does Pilates make you
00:18:15.862 --> 00:18:17.302
stronger? We're talking about reformer.
00:18:17.562 --> 00:18:19.702
So then it's like, is the reformer good for strength? They say,
00:18:19.782 --> 00:18:21.722
well, then what? Fuck yeah. Right.
00:18:22.742 --> 00:18:26.902
And if we say we want to make people stronger with the reformer,
00:18:27.062 --> 00:18:33.342
then one argument here would be focus on movements that are as stable as possible, blah, blah, blah.
00:18:33.342 --> 00:18:38.262
So push-ups off the foot bar is about as stable as a horizontal push as you
00:18:38.262 --> 00:18:41.962
can create on the reformer versus kneeling punches where you've got the same
00:18:41.962 --> 00:18:43.562
problem as the diagonal strap pull.
00:18:45.242 --> 00:18:49.122
So if you're going to, at the point in your program when you want to make people
00:18:49.122 --> 00:18:52.582
stronger, you pick a movement that you can make stable for most people,
00:18:52.622 --> 00:18:56.762
you know, as stable as possible, roughly predictable, and they can be familiar
00:18:56.762 --> 00:18:59.502
with it. So for me, that's like a push-up off the foot bar.
00:18:59.682 --> 00:19:02.682
Right. And then when you go to the diagonal strap pulls, it's like,
00:19:02.742 --> 00:19:06.422
okay, as you said, this is a combination of everything. I'm going to start low
00:19:06.422 --> 00:19:09.762
and get used to the load, and then I'm going to play around with the knees and
00:19:09.762 --> 00:19:13.662
the hips and the arms, which is where reform is fun, right?
00:19:13.762 --> 00:19:16.142
Like they're funky moves that you can't do anywhere else.
00:19:17.082 --> 00:19:23.082
Right. And dear listener, like, you know, we're injecting some nuance into this
00:19:23.082 --> 00:19:28.682
here, and we're not saying that you must go hard on highly stable,
00:19:28.902 --> 00:19:32.602
highly loaded movements 100% of the time in all your reformer classes.
00:19:32.782 --> 00:19:36.002
That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is you can do it all.
00:19:36.142 --> 00:19:43.002
You can build strength by doing simple, stable, high load movements,
00:19:43.062 --> 00:19:48.162
and that only is going to take you 15 minutes out of your class to get everyone super strong.
00:19:48.642 --> 00:19:53.602
Then you can also spend 15 minutes doing like cool funky shit like twisty things
00:19:53.602 --> 00:19:58.422
with the low springs and balletic and all that shit and then you can spend 15
00:19:58.422 --> 00:20:00.162
minutes doing stretchy stuff as well.
00:20:01.859 --> 00:20:05.239
Or any other combination, but it doesn't, you can do it all.
00:20:05.639 --> 00:20:07.639
That's the beauty of this machine. It does it all.
00:20:08.199 --> 00:20:15.119
Right. And you can do all of that in a cluster rather than having blocks in your program, right?
00:20:15.219 --> 00:20:18.579
So you can do a cluster, which we're saying is multiple movements and muscle
00:20:18.579 --> 00:20:22.519
groups in one basic position where the equipment setting stays roughly the same.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.859
And you can change, you can actually change the equipment settings to use different
00:20:27.859 --> 00:20:31.599
muscle groups and to focus on different outputs like strength or stability.
00:20:31.859 --> 00:20:35.499
Right. Long stretch on half a spring abs, long stretch on three springs arms.
00:20:36.159 --> 00:20:39.859
Right. And in between you step off and do some flying splits.
00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:43.559
And because you can access the springs and the foot bar, those transitions are
00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:46.399
quick and simple, especially with a little bit of practice.
00:20:48.219 --> 00:20:55.499
So one of the questions I want to ask you, Raph,
00:20:55.719 --> 00:21:04.639
is there are things that happen physiologically and neuromuscularly or neurologically
00:21:04.639 --> 00:21:05.999
when you become stronger.
00:21:06.179 --> 00:21:10.559
You talked about that last week and you probably talked about it in depth in other podcasts.
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:13.039
We talk about it a lot in the programs.
00:21:14.814 --> 00:21:18.654
So when I go and do, let's keep using the woodchopper as an example.
00:21:18.914 --> 00:21:22.234
When I go and do woodchoppers, this diagonal strap pull. Let's call it drawing
00:21:22.234 --> 00:21:26.054
the sword or swakati or some traditional Pilates name.
00:21:26.654 --> 00:21:30.314
Okay, but I'm going to say a two-handed version rather than the single-handed
00:21:30.314 --> 00:21:33.434
version because I want to maximize. I'm just, you know, giving you shit.
00:21:34.194 --> 00:21:38.614
Okay, right, right. So our two-handed swakati, which might be swakati's,
00:21:38.774 --> 00:21:42.374
we're diagonally strap pulling.
00:21:42.374 --> 00:21:45.294
Right now i get used to the movement over x number
00:21:45.294 --> 00:21:47.994
of classes or x number of practices and i
00:21:47.994 --> 00:21:51.014
work out that with my knees wider i've got a better base of support
00:21:51.014 --> 00:21:55.334
with my elbows bent i'm more athletic against the spring tension if i lean into
00:21:55.334 --> 00:21:58.634
the strap a little bit more i can offset the load all of those little efficiencies
00:21:58.634 --> 00:22:03.234
that i work out with practice and over time i discover wow cool i can do this
00:22:03.234 --> 00:22:08.814
on one and a half or two springs and i'm getting down below 15 reps right so it's okay,
00:22:09.074 --> 00:22:12.854
I've gotten below the 20 threshold for effective strengthening.
00:22:13.594 --> 00:22:17.494
I've become efficient enough with the stability challenges that I'm not feeling
00:22:17.494 --> 00:22:18.654
like I'm going to fall over.
00:22:19.194 --> 00:22:28.274
My question to you is, what's the cost to the physiological effects of strengthening of that?
00:22:29.554 --> 00:22:34.494
Did you know where I'm going with that? Is that making you stronger or is it
00:22:34.494 --> 00:22:38.214
making you a kind of better athlete in a particular construct?
00:22:38.554 --> 00:22:42.134
Well, it's a trade-off, right?
00:22:42.314 --> 00:22:47.874
So if you want to maximize your strength, you would just sit on your heels,
00:22:48.034 --> 00:22:52.754
on the reformer, put all of the springs on, grasp the strap as close as possible
00:22:52.754 --> 00:22:56.934
to the pulley, and just pull for all you're worth.
00:22:57.114 --> 00:23:01.874
And if you twist and lean and distort, it doesn't matter, just like freaking
00:23:01.874 --> 00:23:03.274
pull that thing, dude, right?
00:23:03.314 --> 00:23:05.914
Hard as you can. And if you can only do two and a half reps,
00:23:06.074 --> 00:23:08.794
perfect, perfect, right? And those reps should look ugly.
00:23:09.554 --> 00:23:11.234
So that's if you want to maximize strength.
00:23:12.851 --> 00:23:16.251
Whereas at the other end, if you want to maximize control, now,
00:23:16.391 --> 00:23:18.831
when you maximize strength, it's going to look ugly, right?
00:23:18.891 --> 00:23:22.091
So it's at the expense of what we would call, you know, control.
00:23:22.291 --> 00:23:28.391
Now, really, strength is, control is embedded in strength.
00:23:28.491 --> 00:23:32.231
So in order to express strength, you have to have control, but it's just not
00:23:32.231 --> 00:23:36.591
conscious control where you're consciously looking pretty while you do the movement,
00:23:36.591 --> 00:23:40.871
but your motor cortex is going to organize your body by the very act of leaning
00:23:40.871 --> 00:23:44.471
and grimacing and twisting and hiking your shoulder and whatever,
00:23:44.691 --> 00:23:47.011
that actually enables you to express more strength.
00:23:47.131 --> 00:23:49.991
So that is control. It's just not pretty control.
00:23:50.271 --> 00:23:54.671
But if you wanted to maximize pretty control, right, the finer,
00:23:54.891 --> 00:23:59.951
you know, doing it an artisanal way, then you would do a light spring,
00:24:00.631 --> 00:24:04.911
and you would move slowly and you would focus on developing the fluidity and,
00:24:05.111 --> 00:24:07.751
you know, lots of repetitions to build practice.
00:24:07.891 --> 00:24:10.991
Like if you're practicing a scale on a musical instrument, hundreds and hundreds
00:24:10.991 --> 00:24:13.331
of reps to, you know, really perfect it.
00:24:14.131 --> 00:24:18.451
And that would build almost no strength, right?
00:24:18.631 --> 00:24:21.591
And so at one end, we've got lots of strength and almost no control.
00:24:21.671 --> 00:24:23.611
And the other, we've got lots of control, almost no strength.
00:24:23.751 --> 00:24:25.071
And in the middle, you've got
00:24:25.071 --> 00:24:29.351
a bit of both, right? And so if you've got like a couple of springs on.
00:24:30.171 --> 00:24:33.971
You know, and you're kneeling and you've got two hands and you're not making
00:24:33.971 --> 00:24:38.591
it super ugly, but you're also, it doesn't look like, you know,
00:24:39.031 --> 00:24:41.011
Barajnikov dancing Swan Lake,
00:24:41.791 --> 00:24:46.751
you know, there's some element of control and some element of strength development there.
00:24:46.871 --> 00:24:51.311
Now, the maximum amount of strength you can develop in that position is going
00:24:51.311 --> 00:24:56.831
to be less than if you just sat on your heels and put all the springs on, right?
00:24:56.991 --> 00:25:02.651
But it's still going to be substantial, you know, so... If you can't do 20.
00:25:02.851 --> 00:25:05.571
If you can't do 20, yeah. yep and you
00:25:05.571 --> 00:25:08.851
go until your form dissipates notably right and
00:25:08.851 --> 00:25:11.631
so here's here's where we get to my first kind of
00:25:11.631 --> 00:25:15.751
answer to that question of like can pilates make
00:25:15.751 --> 00:25:20.531
you stronger it's like well depends where you fucking start from you know and
00:25:20.531 --> 00:25:25.491
depends how you do pilates and so if you do pilates the way that we're talking
00:25:25.491 --> 00:25:30.171
about it where you try and create situations at certain points in the session
00:25:30.171 --> 00:25:32.311
where the person can't do 20 reps,
00:25:32.831 --> 00:25:36.731
because it's just too much load for them to go beyond that, well,
00:25:36.831 --> 00:25:38.231
yeah, they will get stronger, right?
00:25:38.371 --> 00:25:43.071
But the limitation on the machine is because you've only got five springs on there.
00:25:44.369 --> 00:25:49.889
At some point, you've got all five springs on, right? And there is no more.
00:25:50.089 --> 00:25:52.629
You can't go stronger than that. I mean, you can grasp the strap a little bit
00:25:52.629 --> 00:25:55.209
higher, but it's eventually like you run out of strap, you run out of springs,
00:25:55.489 --> 00:25:58.909
you run out of carriage stopper positions, and that's as hard as you can go.
00:25:59.729 --> 00:26:05.749
Whereas on a barbell, there is essentially an infinite amount of extra weight you can add, right?
00:26:05.789 --> 00:26:09.369
So the barbell's got so many spots on the end of it, that's like the strongest
00:26:09.369 --> 00:26:11.969
human in the world doesn't run out of space on the barbell.
00:26:12.529 --> 00:26:15.809
So that's effectively uncapped right
00:26:15.809 --> 00:26:18.689
and that's the that's the superpower of barbells but guess what you
00:26:18.689 --> 00:26:21.809
can't stretch on a barbell you know like you can't
00:26:21.809 --> 00:26:24.809
do strike a tee on a barbell so so the
00:26:24.809 --> 00:26:27.489
beauty of the reformer is not that it's it's not a
00:26:27.489 --> 00:26:31.929
it's not like super specialized for strength and the the drawback of that is
00:26:31.929 --> 00:26:36.389
like will you develop elite world-class strength and conditioning levels of
00:26:36.389 --> 00:26:41.449
strength on a reformer no you will not no you will not but can you get like
00:26:41.449 --> 00:26:45.549
double as strong as the average human on planet Earth. Yes, you fucking can. Honor a former.
00:26:46.646 --> 00:26:49.606
And so it just depends, like, how strong do you want to get?
00:26:50.746 --> 00:26:53.686
And I think, just let me catch you there, too. I think one of the things,
00:26:54.066 --> 00:27:00.586
I've had this conversation a lot, when someone does have a handle on strength
00:27:00.586 --> 00:27:03.766
training, then their position becomes, well, the reformer's not great for strength
00:27:03.766 --> 00:27:05.326
training. So fair enough.
00:27:05.586 --> 00:27:10.926
Exactly as you just said, Raf, if we're talking about the pointy end of strength
00:27:10.926 --> 00:27:15.986
training, the super nerd factor of strength training, don't use a reformer.
00:27:15.986 --> 00:27:17.786
It just isn't the right tool.
00:27:18.366 --> 00:27:25.866
But who comes to group, you know, my brain is always oriented to the group reformer world.
00:27:26.046 --> 00:27:28.246
And so who comes to group reformer?
00:27:28.866 --> 00:27:32.246
35-year-old women who are slightly overweight and out of shape.
00:27:32.506 --> 00:27:36.186
Like now, dear listener, if that's not you, don't take offense, right?
00:27:36.346 --> 00:27:39.386
But like your average brand new client who walks in the door,
00:27:39.926 --> 00:27:42.206
you know, that's basically the profile, right?
00:27:42.446 --> 00:27:45.166
Yeah. and even if they're not female and even if
00:27:45.166 --> 00:27:48.226
they're not 35 and even if they're not slightly out of shape they're
00:27:48.226 --> 00:27:51.926
usually trying this out because they've heard it's kind of cool or it's a cool
00:27:51.926 --> 00:27:55.966
way to exercise because they don't like tennis or the gym and so they're not
00:27:55.966 --> 00:27:59.406
you know the number of people who come into a reformer class and say i don't
00:27:59.406 --> 00:28:05.326
care about anything but strength is exactly zero hi i'm i'm i'm a nationally
00:28:05.326 --> 00:28:08.206
competitive olympic weightlifter can you help me get stronger.
00:28:08.786 --> 00:28:12.386
Yeah, no, I can't. Not happening in a reformer class. You're helping people
00:28:12.386 --> 00:28:17.726
who quite possibly, and I mean this with all love for my fellow human,
00:28:17.906 --> 00:28:22.206
but the reality is what people generally think is strength training usually isn't.
00:28:22.346 --> 00:28:26.306
So the vast majority of your clients, even if they say they do strength at the
00:28:26.306 --> 00:28:29.766
gym, when you double click, they're doing 15 plus reps and they could have done
00:28:29.766 --> 00:28:31.446
more. So that's not strength training.
00:28:31.626 --> 00:28:34.346
Exactly. And we've got research on this and I've shared it in a previous episode,
00:28:34.506 --> 00:28:38.886
people typically at the gym, the average person, male and female,
00:28:39.206 --> 00:28:44.846
self-selects a load that is 50% of what's required to get stronger.
00:28:45.366 --> 00:28:48.706
So people are choosing a load that's their 20 RMs.
00:28:49.797 --> 00:28:53.517
But they're doing 10 reps. So they're warming up.
00:28:53.837 --> 00:28:57.497
Yeah. So the average person doesn't get stronger at the gym either because they're
00:28:57.497 --> 00:29:00.157
just self-selecting loads that's way too light.
00:29:00.417 --> 00:29:03.777
So it's the two things. Like we said, it's not just like, well,
00:29:03.837 --> 00:29:04.737
it depends where you're starting.
00:29:05.217 --> 00:29:09.137
It also depends how you'd use it, right? So you can get under a barbell and
00:29:09.137 --> 00:29:12.277
not get stronger if you do it wrong. You know, choose a load that's too light
00:29:12.277 --> 00:29:13.117
and you don't do enough reps.
00:29:13.577 --> 00:29:18.637
So it's the same on a reformer, But the limitation with a reformer is the top
00:29:18.637 --> 00:29:24.117
end of strength development is just not available on a reformer.
00:29:24.497 --> 00:29:30.117
But like you say, Heath, like 99.9% of your clients don't give a shit about
00:29:30.117 --> 00:29:32.257
that. And that's not their goal.
00:29:32.397 --> 00:29:37.497
And even, I would say, even the people who've come to my classes from CrossFit
00:29:37.497 --> 00:29:41.337
or Olympic weightlifting or powerlifting, they don't come to reformer to get
00:29:41.337 --> 00:29:43.177
stronger. That's what they go to powerlifting for.
00:29:43.917 --> 00:29:48.217
They come to stretch out and recover and, you know, get their mobility back
00:29:48.217 --> 00:29:50.777
and all of those good things. Yeah, exactly.
00:29:51.277 --> 00:29:56.137
All right, great. So what emerges from this for me is it's really,
00:29:56.237 --> 00:30:02.137
I think it's so important, and this is as a result of the deficit of what I
00:30:02.137 --> 00:30:04.637
learned in my Pilates training on the topic.
00:30:04.797 --> 00:30:08.017
Which I trained you. Yeah.
00:30:09.757 --> 00:30:14.397
For Pilates instructors. there's, well, yeah, we've come a long way together
00:30:14.397 --> 00:30:18.717
to learn about strength and what it is and how you actually do it.
00:30:19.317 --> 00:30:24.777
But then, and maybe this goes to that other topic we had, is that the more sophisticated,
00:30:25.317 --> 00:30:27.397
you know, the more in-depth your understanding.
00:30:29.497 --> 00:30:34.117
In a sense, the less you should share it with people, the less obvious your knowledge should be.
00:30:34.497 --> 00:30:39.217
I feel very confident these days that if you step in front of me on a reformer
00:30:39.217 --> 00:30:42.997
class, I'm going to get you to a strength training output.
00:30:43.377 --> 00:30:47.037
I'm going to get you to those conditions because I've practiced the layers that
00:30:47.037 --> 00:30:51.597
I teach and the clusters that I teach so many times that I can read you and
00:30:51.597 --> 00:30:55.037
I can watch your movement and I'm very confident I'm going to get you there multiple times.
00:30:57.477 --> 00:31:01.757
But I don't talk about it. There's no point telling you about it.
00:31:01.797 --> 00:31:04.397
There's no point saying, now we're doing a strength training phase, folks.
00:31:04.537 --> 00:31:07.617
I just want to get you moving. People don't care about that. They don't care.
00:31:08.177 --> 00:31:13.277
Look, people come to group exercise because they want to be told what to do,
00:31:13.737 --> 00:31:15.297
and they want to do it with other people.
00:31:15.397 --> 00:31:19.057
If they wanted to figure it out themselves, they'd be at the gym or at home
00:31:19.057 --> 00:31:19.917
figuring out themselves.
00:31:20.457 --> 00:31:23.637
Right. The figure it out yourself person doesn't come to group exercise.
00:31:23.857 --> 00:31:27.937
The person who comes to group exercise wants you to give them a session that gives them results.
00:31:28.117 --> 00:31:31.037
And even if they don't know that, the results are what bring them back.
00:31:31.177 --> 00:31:36.937
Right. Yeah. Dear listener, think about if you hired like a private chef, right?
00:31:37.677 --> 00:31:41.137
And to cook your meals for you and your family at home, right?
00:31:42.097 --> 00:31:45.237
You're probably not going to go to the private chef. Oh, show me how to make
00:31:45.237 --> 00:31:48.277
this dish. Show me how to make this dish. It's like, if you wanted to cook,
00:31:48.437 --> 00:31:49.557
you wouldn't have hired a fucking chef.
00:31:50.337 --> 00:31:54.337
You know, you would have gone to cooking classes or something, right?
00:31:54.577 --> 00:31:58.317
So the fact that you hired a chef says you don't fucking want to know how to cook.
00:31:58.477 --> 00:32:01.817
You want someone else to do it for you, right? And that's the chef's job is
00:32:01.817 --> 00:32:04.257
to, so you don't have to worry about it or think about it.
00:32:04.317 --> 00:32:08.577
The food just appears on the table, right? And that's the same with Pilates.
00:32:08.837 --> 00:32:11.717
The people who come to a group performer class, they don't want to think about it.
00:32:12.237 --> 00:32:14.577
They just want you to think about it for them and give them,
00:32:14.797 --> 00:32:16.617
okay, here's what I thought about and here's how to do it.
00:32:16.697 --> 00:32:19.217
Now move your arm, now move your leg, put on this spring, stand up,
00:32:19.297 --> 00:32:20.777
lie down. Good to see you next week.
00:32:25.924 --> 00:32:34.704
So, we take that group context and can we make people stronger?
00:32:34.884 --> 00:32:40.424
And at the pointy end of the conversation is 6RM, 3RM, can't do,
00:32:40.524 --> 00:32:42.124
you know, all of the things we've been talking about.
00:32:43.224 --> 00:32:47.524
And as we've said, there is a huge scope for making people stronger,
00:32:47.524 --> 00:32:49.544
which doesn't have to be as nerdy as that.
00:32:49.684 --> 00:32:52.344
Well, you can get someone to a 3RM. Like there are things I can do,
00:32:52.504 --> 00:32:56.604
like I'm pretty strong, but I can, there are things I can do on a reformer that
00:32:56.604 --> 00:33:01.024
I can't do three reps, like long stretch on zero springs, for example. Yeah. Right.
00:33:01.324 --> 00:33:04.444
And there are a few other things that I could name, you know,
00:33:04.584 --> 00:33:07.944
most of them on zero springs using body weight. Right.
00:33:08.224 --> 00:33:12.264
Where it's like, yeah, I probably couldn't even do one long stretch on zero springs.
00:33:12.504 --> 00:33:16.504
Right. So it's beyond my one RM. So I could definitely improve certain aspects
00:33:16.504 --> 00:33:17.744
of my strength on the reformer.
00:33:17.744 --> 00:33:20.704
But for most people if you just think of a balanced strength routine
00:33:20.704 --> 00:33:23.404
where you're strengthening your legs and your arms and your back and your abs and
00:33:23.404 --> 00:33:26.264
all of that good stuff it's like you're going to run out of springs
00:33:26.264 --> 00:33:33.704
fairly you know after at a certain point but you can absolutely get people a
00:33:33.704 --> 00:33:38.424
lot stronger and i think the limitation is you can get them you know and i don't
00:33:38.424 --> 00:33:40.724
you know i'm just making up numbers here but i would say you could get somebody
00:33:40.724 --> 00:33:45.604
to be like let's say have double the strength of the average person, right?
00:33:45.704 --> 00:33:48.764
The average just punter walking around the streets.
00:33:49.644 --> 00:33:55.544
But you can't get them to elite strength levels, you know, like a power lifter.
00:33:57.711 --> 00:34:03.571
And what we're saying is that broadly,
00:34:03.571 --> 00:34:12.011
actual strengthening is such a rare thing that using the reformer to get people
00:34:12.011 --> 00:34:16.931
looking sketchy at 15 to 20 reps in a movement that's roughly stable,
00:34:17.071 --> 00:34:19.791
you almost certainly just made that person strong.
00:34:19.991 --> 00:34:25.051
And if they're in your class, they're probably not doing systematic strength training elsewhere.
00:34:25.211 --> 00:34:29.831
Right. Fantastic. And even if they do go to the gym, like if they're the average
00:34:29.831 --> 00:34:33.931
person who chooses 20 RM load and does 10 reps, which is what most people do,
00:34:34.151 --> 00:34:35.611
that's what the research tells us,
00:34:36.111 --> 00:34:40.631
well, they probably will get stronger on a reformer in your class than they
00:34:40.631 --> 00:34:44.491
would in the gym sitting on the chess press machine for five minutes scrolling
00:34:44.491 --> 00:34:47.391
Instagram in between sets of 10 reps at their 20 rep max.
00:34:50.951 --> 00:34:59.271
So so so reformer taught well can be better for strengthening than gym workouts
00:34:59.271 --> 00:35:06.751
taught badly yeah right and then catching that just coming back to that uh woodchopper topic,
00:35:08.211 --> 00:35:14.631
if we say reformer taught well and by that we mean in the context of making
00:35:14.631 --> 00:35:18.251
people stronger can be more effective than the gym,
00:35:19.571 --> 00:35:23.831
the considerations are, is the person stable enough in the movement that they
00:35:23.831 --> 00:35:28.911
can put in, their focus is on the strength output, not the I don't want to fall
00:35:28.911 --> 00:35:30.211
over and hurt myself output.
00:35:30.511 --> 00:35:33.831
Right. And, or, I don't want to fall over and hurt myself, yes.
00:35:34.011 --> 00:35:36.891
And also, I'm focusing on making the movement pretty.
00:35:37.791 --> 00:35:42.211
Because there's an inverse relationship between how pretty you can make it look and how heavy it is.
00:35:44.136 --> 00:35:48.656
And so I just want to add in just one thing. I'm sorry to cut you off there.
00:35:48.796 --> 00:35:52.216
No, no, no. Go, go. So the other thing that happens, like if we were to,
00:35:52.396 --> 00:35:54.676
you know, we're talking about the wood chopper before and we're optimizing for
00:35:54.676 --> 00:35:57.436
load at one end by putting all the springs on, sitting on your heels and just,
00:35:57.516 --> 00:35:59.816
you know, yanking on that strap as hard as possible.
00:36:00.276 --> 00:36:02.876
And then at the other end, we're kind of kneeling up. We've got a light spring
00:36:02.876 --> 00:36:04.096
on. We're making it look balletic.
00:36:04.236 --> 00:36:06.636
We're keeping our shoulders down away from our ears and moving the,
00:36:06.636 --> 00:36:08.756
you know, ballet hands and all of the rest of it stuff.
00:36:08.996 --> 00:36:13.516
Right. So in the balletic version, you are going to,
00:36:13.816 --> 00:36:17.796
depending on how many reps you do and what spring you've got on, but for many people,
00:36:17.956 --> 00:36:22.976
you will feel a burn and get some kind of non-zero amount of strengthening in
00:36:22.976 --> 00:36:29.576
the deltoid, the upper shoulder of the arm that's away from the foot bar side arm, essentially,
00:36:30.196 --> 00:36:32.056
if you do enough reps.
00:36:33.416 --> 00:36:36.096
And so you may you know the other
00:36:36.096 --> 00:36:39.096
thing that happens is as you kind of increase the
00:36:39.096 --> 00:36:41.796
kind of control element of the movement and make it
00:36:41.796 --> 00:36:44.616
kind of more slow and light and balletic and
00:36:44.616 --> 00:36:47.216
focus on the nuances of which way your fingers are pointing and all that kind
00:36:47.216 --> 00:36:52.116
of stuff is you rather than like if you do a really heavy wood chopper sitting
00:36:52.116 --> 00:36:55.176
on your heels with all the springs on you're going to strengthen your obliques
00:36:55.176 --> 00:37:00.096
and your hips and your shoulders and your chest and your intercostals and all
00:37:00.096 --> 00:37:03.416
of these muscles are all contributing, probably your reductors and stuff as well.
00:37:04.096 --> 00:37:06.556
Whereas if you're doing the balletic version, you might get,
00:37:06.596 --> 00:37:10.056
you know, 90% of the strengthening you get will just be in your left deltoid.
00:37:10.816 --> 00:37:13.816
You know, so you're isolating the movement right down to like,
00:37:13.996 --> 00:37:15.736
you know, a tiny fraction of the muscle groups.
00:37:15.836 --> 00:37:19.096
And same, if you're doing like a side-lying leg springs on one spring,
00:37:19.556 --> 00:37:24.916
right, might be fantastic for the posterior fibers of your right gluteus medius, right?
00:37:24.916 --> 00:37:31.056
But the other 611 muscles in your body are doing basically fuck all,
00:37:31.296 --> 00:37:34.236
you know. So it's low value in terms of strengthening.
00:37:34.756 --> 00:37:39.316
So let me get you to unpack something for me and all the people that have asked
00:37:39.316 --> 00:37:42.796
me this question over the years, because I feel like it's something I could
00:37:42.796 --> 00:37:44.276
answer more comprehensively.
00:37:47.215 --> 00:37:52.075
In Pilates, there's a lot of, and I'm not sure where it comes from because it
00:37:52.075 --> 00:38:00.715
doesn't seem to be part of the original work, capital W, movements that are focusing on,
00:38:01.355 --> 00:38:05.055
all right, so if you, like me, for a long time, dear listener,
00:38:05.195 --> 00:38:08.475
think about movements as being for a muscle, right?
00:38:08.755 --> 00:38:13.275
Oh, so when we do this, it's for lower traps or it's for your pec minor or it's
00:38:13.275 --> 00:38:18.515
for your whatever. Well, Joseph's answer to that when people asked him in the
00:38:18.515 --> 00:38:22.135
studio, which muscle is this for, he used to get cranky and go, it's for the body.
00:38:22.815 --> 00:38:28.035
Yeah. Okay, great. Well, that might be the simple answer to my question.
00:38:28.355 --> 00:38:32.835
So when, you know, Raf's just given that example of the light spring,
00:38:33.235 --> 00:38:40.095
one hand in the strap makes steam come off your deltoid, but nothing else really feels anything.
00:38:40.095 --> 00:38:43.555
So maybe there's a non-zero strengthening effect for your deltoid.
00:38:43.555 --> 00:38:48.355
So if you're, like I saw for so long did, thinking that you're doing movements
00:38:48.355 --> 00:38:51.675
and you want people to feel a particular muscle so you know that that particular
00:38:51.675 --> 00:38:54.635
muscle is getting the effect, which you think is strengthening,
00:38:54.835 --> 00:38:56.675
whether it is or not, you don't know.
00:38:57.975 --> 00:39:01.575
So my question for you to unpack for us, Raph, is twofold. One,
00:39:02.215 --> 00:39:07.795
the things that we do for strength training are system-wide, right?
00:39:07.935 --> 00:39:13.235
So like squats, bench press, deadlifts, and in our case, let's say knee stretches
00:39:13.235 --> 00:39:18.975
on heavy springs, or there's multiple muscle groups working together as a system
00:39:18.975 --> 00:39:21.295
to create force against an external load.
00:39:21.575 --> 00:39:26.355
I would say there's a nuance to that.
00:39:26.655 --> 00:39:32.115
Yeah, that's what I want to unpack. All right. So you get, you are strong at a certain thing, right?
00:39:32.235 --> 00:39:35.695
Because strength is, the expression of strength is the ability to exert load
00:39:35.695 --> 00:39:38.595
against force, sorry, to exert force against an external object, right?
00:39:38.675 --> 00:39:41.495
Whether that's to move your own body weight or move the external object or whatever it is.
00:39:42.535 --> 00:39:47.235
And so there's a, there's a muscle contractile force component to that,
00:39:47.315 --> 00:39:48.635
and there's a skill component to that, right?
00:39:48.775 --> 00:39:51.255
So moving a barbell is not the same skill as.
00:39:53.275 --> 00:39:56.275
You know, moving a reformer carriage or doing a handstand, right?
00:39:56.455 --> 00:39:59.315
So doing an overhead press with a barbell is not the same skill as doing a handstand,
00:39:59.495 --> 00:40:02.015
even though it's the same muscle groups, right?
00:40:02.215 --> 00:40:07.135
So there's a muscle group component, and there's also a skill component to every test of strength.
00:40:07.175 --> 00:40:11.075
And so we could say, how long can you do a handstand for? And that might be one test of strength.
00:40:11.595 --> 00:40:14.895
And then how long can you hold this barbell overhead is a different test of strength.
00:40:15.095 --> 00:40:18.675
And they're not going to correlate a lot, right? Because if you've practiced
00:40:18.675 --> 00:40:21.795
holding a barbell overhead, that's going to make you better at doing that.
00:40:21.975 --> 00:40:25.075
You won't necessarily be able to hold a handstand for one second,
00:40:25.075 --> 00:40:28.435
and vice versa with practicing handstands. doesn't mean you can hold a barbell
00:40:28.435 --> 00:40:31.115
overhead, right? Even though you might have the same size shoulder muscles.
00:40:31.295 --> 00:40:33.195
So there's a skill component to everything.
00:40:33.495 --> 00:40:36.455
And so you can be strong at doing swakati.
00:40:37.510 --> 00:40:40.370
Right because that is there's a skill component and there's a muscle
00:40:40.370 --> 00:40:43.330
contraction component to it and you can be strong at
00:40:43.330 --> 00:40:47.130
doing barbell squat or a bench press right the the
00:40:47.130 --> 00:40:50.470
advantage and why i 100 agree
00:40:50.470 --> 00:40:53.630
with kind of the the the underpinning assumption between behind
00:40:53.630 --> 00:40:59.450
what you said is that like those big multi-limb compound movements like squats
00:40:59.450 --> 00:41:04.350
and bench presses and deadlifts and you know long stretches and lunges and things
00:41:04.350 --> 00:41:09.570
like that lunges push-ups push-ups all of those things are superior for developing
00:41:09.570 --> 00:41:12.950
strength is because you've got 612 or 620 or whatever.
00:41:13.250 --> 00:41:16.690
There's some, I think it's about 620, but there's a variable number because
00:41:16.690 --> 00:41:21.570
some people, there are some muscles that aren't present in every person, right?
00:41:21.610 --> 00:41:25.230
So some people have like 720 muscles in their body and some people have 610
00:41:25.230 --> 00:41:27.190
or whatever, but it's like, yeah, somewhere around that.
00:41:28.610 --> 00:41:31.930
You've got about 620 muscles in your body. If you targeted
00:41:31.930 --> 00:41:34.970
everyone individually and you did like 10 reps and
00:41:34.970 --> 00:41:37.730
then you did the other side for 10 reps and then you did three sets of
00:41:37.730 --> 00:41:40.930
that it'd take you like fucking 14 hours to do your whole body workout right
00:41:40.930 --> 00:41:44.010
so if we whereas if we just do like a
00:41:44.010 --> 00:41:47.610
lunge you've done freaking like 200 muscles literally
00:41:47.610 --> 00:41:50.530
right so you can just do all of
00:41:50.530 --> 00:41:53.510
the muscles in a much shorter time by doing bigger compound movements that
00:41:53.510 --> 00:41:56.730
involve multiple limbs right whereas if you're doing swakati great
00:41:56.730 --> 00:42:00.170
the right lateral the right lateral deltoids
00:42:00.170 --> 00:42:03.530
cooked now awesome now you've all you've got is your anterior and posterior
00:42:03.530 --> 00:42:07.110
deltoids on the right and then the left ones and then the other 615 muscles
00:42:07.110 --> 00:42:11.670
right and so it's like well how long is your pilates class you know that you're
00:42:11.670 --> 00:42:18.210
going to work with so there's nothing inherently less strengthening about doing
00:42:18.210 --> 00:42:20.130
an isolation movement like a swakati,
00:42:21.510 --> 00:42:25.470
compared to a lunge or push up or some other bigger compound movement but it's
00:42:25.470 --> 00:42:27.830
just like Like at the time mover level.
00:42:28.130 --> 00:42:33.090
Right. It's just way less efficient, way less efficient, time efficient.
00:42:34.110 --> 00:42:35.610
Yeah. So then-
00:42:37.862 --> 00:42:45.702
The next question that I often work through is, if you do that and you have,
00:42:45.862 --> 00:42:51.782
to quote, muscle imbalances, aren't you continuing to develop those muscle imbalances?
00:42:52.062 --> 00:42:57.962
So if you're, I don't know, if you're quad dominant, for Christ's sake,
00:42:58.342 --> 00:43:00.602
if you're quad dominant in knee extension- Well, I'm just going to stop you
00:43:00.602 --> 00:43:03.422
there because quad dominant is a total bullshit made up thing,
00:43:03.622 --> 00:43:05.682
which there's literally zero evidence for.
00:43:06.282 --> 00:43:08.162
I know, I know. It's just a made up thing. So, but this is the,
00:43:08.222 --> 00:43:10.282
I know, I know. But so this is the question.
00:43:10.482 --> 00:43:15.222
So for the, for the people who haven't got there, haven't understood this yet,
00:43:15.322 --> 00:43:17.562
or maybe they even understand the concept.
00:43:17.782 --> 00:43:24.522
I've often had the question, if I'm doing these big compound movements and focusing
00:43:24.522 --> 00:43:28.822
on force generation, am I not leaving some muscles behind? And so.
00:43:29.282 --> 00:43:32.822
No. Because you've said it's a, right. So unpack that. All right.
00:43:32.822 --> 00:43:37.182
So if, so dear listener, I've done a whole episode on this and presented like
00:43:37.182 --> 00:43:39.342
quite a significant amount of research in that episode.
00:43:39.402 --> 00:43:42.702
And I cannot for the life of me remember which episode it was,
00:43:42.782 --> 00:43:43.642
but I'm going to look it up.
00:43:45.762 --> 00:43:53.382
And the episode, drum roll, is 194, feeling a muscle working doesn't mean it's getting stronger.
00:43:54.002 --> 00:43:57.762
And then also 160, can we even feel muscles activating?
00:43:58.662 --> 00:44:01.922
So both of those, but I would say start with 160 if you want to get all the
00:44:01.922 --> 00:44:06.982
science on this topic of why feeling a muscle working and actually strengthening
00:44:06.982 --> 00:44:09.082
that muscle are just not the same thing.
00:44:13.402 --> 00:44:19.642
So that's not quite what I was asking. So in a compound, a big compound movement
00:44:19.642 --> 00:44:22.342
like a squat or a push up or a lunge or something like that,
00:44:22.682 --> 00:44:30.042
whether you can feel A, B or C muscle working has literally nothing to do with
00:44:30.042 --> 00:44:32.782
whether it is working and whether it's getting stronger, right?
00:44:32.842 --> 00:44:35.362
So just say you can't feel your glutes in a lunge. It's like,
00:44:35.522 --> 00:44:36.282
it doesn't fucking matter.
00:44:36.842 --> 00:44:39.742
They're going to get stronger, right? I guarantee. If you can do a lunge,
00:44:39.822 --> 00:44:41.582
it means your glutes are working. Like if your glute was paralyzed,
00:44:41.922 --> 00:44:44.582
you would not be able to do a lunge. So it's working, I promise you.
00:44:46.142 --> 00:44:50.262
So yes, a lunge is always going to strengthen your glutes and your quads and your adductors, yes.
00:44:50.942 --> 00:44:56.362
But if you're just doing just those big compound movements, there are certain
00:44:56.362 --> 00:44:59.702
muscles that you're going to miss out because those movements don't target things
00:44:59.702 --> 00:45:04.022
like hamstrings, for example, aren't going to get targeted in a lunge or a squat, right?
00:45:04.282 --> 00:45:07.582
And that's not because you can't feel it. It's not because you're working too
00:45:07.582 --> 00:45:10.062
hard. It's just because the biomechanics of that movement, it doesn't matter
00:45:10.062 --> 00:45:13.122
how light you make it, you're never going to fucking strengthen your hamstrings
00:45:13.122 --> 00:45:17.102
in a squat or a lunge because it's just not a good movement to strengthen that muscle in.
00:45:17.222 --> 00:45:21.022
If you want to strengthen your hamstrings, you have to do isolated knee flexion,
00:45:21.822 --> 00:45:24.562
or isolated hip extension, right?
00:45:24.722 --> 00:45:28.662
And yeah, so it's, but it's not about whether you can feel it or how much load there is.
00:45:28.882 --> 00:45:31.882
It's just about, it's just not biomechanically a good movement to challenge that muscle.
00:45:35.161 --> 00:45:40.301
And if you wanted to strengthen your lateral deltoid, the deltoid on the outside
00:45:40.301 --> 00:45:44.641
of your shoulder, well, is swakati a better movement than, say, push-ups?
00:45:44.721 --> 00:45:48.961
Yeah, it is, because push-ups doesn't really target the lateral deltoid, right?
00:45:49.281 --> 00:45:52.001
And you could do push-ups on the wall, right?
00:45:52.061 --> 00:45:56.861
The lightest possible push-ups, focusing 100% of your brain power on activating
00:45:56.861 --> 00:46:00.741
your lateral deltoid, it still wouldn't target your lateral deltoid,
00:46:00.801 --> 00:46:03.641
because it's just not a movement that loads the lateral deltoid, right?
00:46:04.261 --> 00:46:07.361
But and so swakati is a better movement for strengthening
00:46:07.361 --> 00:46:10.321
lateral deltoid than push-ups but not because push-ups is
00:46:10.321 --> 00:46:13.241
load it's just because like swakati is a better movement for
00:46:13.241 --> 00:46:17.201
strengthening lateral deltoid than lunges because lunges don't load the lateral
00:46:17.201 --> 00:46:21.761
deltoid you know it's like it's just not a that movement doesn't load that muscle
00:46:21.761 --> 00:46:27.141
right and and you've already answered it but i'm going to circle you back to
00:46:27.141 --> 00:46:32.921
it the the little movement so you know there's so much in Pilates choreography that,
00:46:33.041 --> 00:46:38.801
and in a lot of cases, it reflects gymnastics training where you do specific
00:46:38.801 --> 00:46:41.861
movements that do actually target a specific muscle.
00:46:42.041 --> 00:46:46.081
Right. Okay. So I'm just going to jump in there because you've totally inspired me with this thing.
00:46:46.161 --> 00:46:50.661
And I think that with that observation, so I just said there are certain movements.
00:46:51.341 --> 00:46:54.121
Just bi-mechanically load certain muscles, but not other muscles,
00:46:54.241 --> 00:46:55.381
right? And that's the case for any exercise.
00:46:55.481 --> 00:46:59.881
There's no one exercise that loads every single muscle in the body efficiently. but
00:46:59.881 --> 00:47:02.861
dear listener the distinction here is not between big muscles
00:47:02.861 --> 00:47:06.041
and small muscles it's not between
00:47:06.041 --> 00:47:11.381
big muscles and small muscles push-ups are like one-handed push-ups with your
00:47:11.381 --> 00:47:17.281
feet on the sofa highly highly loaded push-ups are fucking fantastic for loading
00:47:17.281 --> 00:47:21.721
the little muscles around your shoulder the rotator cuff there's like the number
00:47:21.721 --> 00:47:23.761
one exercise for loading in the rotator cuff.
00:47:24.601 --> 00:47:30.281
Heavy squats with a barbell with like your six rep max, so like,
00:47:30.421 --> 00:47:33.321
you know, one and a half times body weight probably, okay,
00:47:33.941 --> 00:47:38.501
are fantastic for your deep abdominal, you know, for your obliques and rectus
00:47:38.501 --> 00:47:40.481
abdominis, right, and your deep hip rotator.
00:47:40.581 --> 00:47:45.381
So the load isn't what determines whether the big muscles or little muscles are worth.
00:47:45.401 --> 00:47:49.641
It's just the biomechanics of does that movement actually load that muscle?
00:47:49.821 --> 00:47:54.181
And so squats are fantastic for your abs, They're shit for your hamstrings.
00:47:54.301 --> 00:47:56.781
Hamstrings are big muscle, right? Not a little muscle.
00:47:58.181 --> 00:48:02.701
Push-ups are fantastic for your rotator cuff, a little muscle. Terrible for your lats.
00:48:03.101 --> 00:48:06.801
Big muscle, right? So the distinction is not big versus little.
00:48:06.941 --> 00:48:10.861
It's just like where is that muscle situated and doesn't have a biomechanical
00:48:10.861 --> 00:48:15.061
moment to actually produce force in that movement, right?
00:48:15.201 --> 00:48:16.981
And in the case of lats in a push-up, no, it doesn't.
00:48:19.345 --> 00:48:22.625
Something i've wondered about with this is um
00:48:22.625 --> 00:48:25.905
all right so let's let's let's let's let's
00:48:25.905 --> 00:48:29.505
use a the hamstring as an example so
00:48:29.505 --> 00:48:33.065
as you've said in a compound movement uh the
00:48:33.065 --> 00:48:37.965
hamstrings are not changing length under load so it's not effective or as it's
00:48:37.965 --> 00:48:41.725
not as effective for strengthening the hamstrings as it could be right so if
00:48:41.725 --> 00:48:44.425
we want to strengthen the hamstrings effectively we want to move them through
00:48:44.425 --> 00:48:47.965
range of motion under appropriate load so we would need to fix one end of the
00:48:47.965 --> 00:48:52.485
the system so that the hip stays still or the knee stays still and you move at the other end. Right.
00:48:52.685 --> 00:48:56.705
So Jefferson curls or knee flexions. Or like a shoulder bridge on the reformer on a light spring.
00:48:57.145 --> 00:49:04.165
On a light spring, right? Which is effectively the same thing as a prone hamstring curl.
00:49:04.265 --> 00:49:07.565
Right. Or a front split on the reformer on a light spring.
00:49:08.325 --> 00:49:10.065
Fantastic. You're isolating the hip there.
00:49:12.905 --> 00:49:15.925
So the my question is if
00:49:15.925 --> 00:49:18.885
you're because i think this captures the question that
00:49:18.885 --> 00:49:23.585
i was trying to ask for the pilates world if
00:49:23.585 --> 00:49:31.565
i do appropriately loaded hamstring curls or jefferson curls and make my hamstring
00:49:31.565 --> 00:49:39.025
stronger will my overall output in a squat be higher no if i strength Does that make sense?
00:49:39.245 --> 00:49:42.245
Yeah, no. And that's the skill question, right? It's like- No, it won't.
00:49:42.445 --> 00:49:46.005
Yeah. Almost zero transfer. I would say, you know, I haven't seen a study like
00:49:46.005 --> 00:49:50.105
where they did hamstring curls and then did squats, but I would bet money that
00:49:50.105 --> 00:49:51.365
the transfer would be almost zero.
00:49:51.505 --> 00:49:55.445
Like you could spend six months in the gym doing 15 sets a week of hamstring
00:49:55.445 --> 00:49:58.425
curls to failure, you know, double the strength of your hamstrings.
00:49:58.985 --> 00:50:02.045
And at the end of it, your squat one RM would not have improved at all.
00:50:02.865 --> 00:50:07.005
If you didn't do other things as well, right? If you weren't squatting and whatever. Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:07.465 --> 00:50:11.165
And if you were doing the other things, it would be the other things that gave
00:50:11.165 --> 00:50:13.985
you the improvement in the squat. Whereas if you just squatted and didn't do
00:50:13.985 --> 00:50:17.905
a single hamstring exercise for the whole six months, you would get better at squatting.
00:50:22.586 --> 00:50:26.186
We're pretty far down the rabbit hole but can i ask you to think on something
00:50:26.186 --> 00:50:30.226
that i lived through and i've never been able to quite make sense of was it
00:50:30.226 --> 00:50:31.886
that acid experience you had in,
00:50:33.046 --> 00:50:37.846
we can talk about that another time on maybe a different podcast but uh no no
00:50:37.846 --> 00:50:43.406
this is um so on my 40th birthday so this is going back a while now i i'd been
00:50:43.406 --> 00:50:47.326
building up my deadlifts and my goal was to do lift 150 kilos on my,
00:50:47.426 --> 00:50:48.686
before my 40th birthday.
00:50:49.146 --> 00:50:53.826
And I got it. I got it on my 40th birthday. I lifted 150 and I needed to have a lie down, right?
00:50:53.846 --> 00:50:57.086
I was like, it was a one, it was a total one rep max. That was,
00:50:57.206 --> 00:50:58.746
that was all I was going to lift.
00:50:59.126 --> 00:51:02.846
And I literally did actually lie down afterwards on the ground next to my barbell
00:51:02.846 --> 00:51:04.046
because I couldn't really stand up.
00:51:05.026 --> 00:51:08.506
And I kind of thought, okay, well, I'm going to give myself a break from this
00:51:08.506 --> 00:51:11.286
for a while. I didn't even think that consciously. I just didn't want to do
00:51:11.286 --> 00:51:12.726
a deadlift again for a while.
00:51:14.026 --> 00:51:16.906
And there were other things in play that had already been
00:51:16.906 --> 00:51:20.166
emerging and so for the next few years all i did was gymnastic training
00:51:20.166 --> 00:51:23.346
i didn't do any barbell loaded work
00:51:23.346 --> 00:51:26.106
all i did was body weight work where if i used weights it was little
00:51:26.106 --> 00:51:28.966
kind of ancillary things but i
00:51:28.966 --> 00:51:31.686
was very systematic about it it's when i developed all the
00:51:31.686 --> 00:51:34.706
stuff around the diploma that we use for the good for everyone program
00:51:34.706 --> 00:51:37.366
and i was so super systematic i trained two to
00:51:37.366 --> 00:51:40.406
three times a week i'd vary my set output i'd
00:51:40.406 --> 00:51:44.406
bury my load input blah blah blah blah blah and got
00:51:44.406 --> 00:51:47.226
really strong and i was doing pistol squats and stuff that i'd never done before
00:51:47.226 --> 00:51:50.586
either and then i went to this event uh at
00:51:50.586 --> 00:51:54.566
a personal training studio that my girlfriend went to and they called it world
00:51:54.566 --> 00:51:58.106
deadlift day and it was just a little internal sort of thing it wasn't actually
00:51:58.106 --> 00:52:02.546
world deadlift and i went along i hadn't done a deadlift in the four years since
00:52:02.546 --> 00:52:07.586
my 40th birthday and so i assumed i'd do like 100 kilos.
00:52:09.166 --> 00:52:11.886
But i just was tracking along with the rest of the crew and i
00:52:11.886 --> 00:52:15.326
went to 130 140 150 and kept
00:52:15.326 --> 00:52:19.666
going and i got a one rm of 201 kilos and
00:52:19.666 --> 00:52:22.746
i was like i don't know where that came from like i haven't been training deadlifts
00:52:22.746 --> 00:52:26.726
i've got i've got never really i've got two two two things that i think explain
00:52:26.726 --> 00:52:31.406
that first one is uh so strength has a skill component but also just a muscle
00:52:31.406 --> 00:52:34.786
mass component right so two people equally skilled one with bigger muscles that
00:52:34.786 --> 00:52:36.186
person's going to be stronger, right?
00:52:36.346 --> 00:52:39.806
Or the same person, same amount of skill, four years go past,
00:52:39.906 --> 00:52:41.786
you've been training gymnastics, your muscles have got bigger,
00:52:42.066 --> 00:52:44.346
you're going to be stronger, right? Yeah.
00:52:44.606 --> 00:52:47.006
So bigger muscles are stronger muscles. So that's one thing.
00:52:47.186 --> 00:52:50.546
So that gymnastics training might not have developed your deadlifting skill
00:52:50.546 --> 00:52:54.246
at all, but it probably developed your glutes and your hamstrings and your back
00:52:54.246 --> 00:52:57.786
extensors and all of that stuff, right? And so just, yeah, more muscle mass, right?
00:52:57.966 --> 00:53:00.966
Is my guess. The second thing is the crowd.
00:53:02.439 --> 00:53:06.099
When you've got people watching, and we've got empirical research on this,
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:08.719
people perform better when people are watching.
00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:12.939
Wow. Right? So I was trying to impress my girlfriend or whoever.
00:53:13.099 --> 00:53:14.359
Yeah, and all the other people there.
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:16.759
And it's, you know, I mean, you could say that we're trying to impress the girlfriend,
00:53:16.779 --> 00:53:19.499
but it's also just like we get more stimulated, we get more,
00:53:19.499 --> 00:53:22.679
you know, fired up when there's other people around, right?
00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:27.439
We've got research saying, you know, when people get better results with personal
00:53:27.439 --> 00:53:30.999
trainers, not because personal trainers are better at programming,
00:53:31.139 --> 00:53:35.179
it's just because like they don't stop when it gets hard. The personal training makes you keep going.
00:53:35.719 --> 00:53:40.339
And so having that other person that just pushes you beyond what you thought you could do before.
00:53:40.459 --> 00:53:45.199
And so I would be a thousand percent certain that if you had continued deadlift
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:48.659
training through that time, you would have hit like 250 on that day. Right.
00:53:48.999 --> 00:53:51.939
Right? Because of the skill component, et cetera. Right, right.
00:53:52.059 --> 00:53:57.239
But there was just, you've built muscle mass, awesome, and you already had the skill, right?
00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:02.999
And beyond a certain point, it's mostly the muscle mass. So like when powerlifters
00:54:02.999 --> 00:54:07.319
start out, they develop strength very quickly and out of proportion to the muscle.
00:54:07.399 --> 00:54:11.099
So how much muscle they get and how much strength they develop are not synchronized
00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:13.599
in the early, like you get really strong without putting on a lot of muscle.
00:54:13.739 --> 00:54:18.599
But then over years, to get stronger, like the only way to get stronger,
00:54:18.619 --> 00:54:24.799
if you've been powerlifting 10 years, muscle mass and strength correlate almost perfectly.
00:54:24.999 --> 00:54:28.799
Like how much you can lift and how much muscle mass you have correlate almost perfectly.
00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:34.959
So at the beginning, for the first X number of years, you're developing skill as well as muscle mass.
00:54:35.099 --> 00:54:40.459
But then at a certain point in the deadlift, your skill kind of maxes out, right?
00:54:40.599 --> 00:54:44.939
And there's not a lot more skill development available in that particular movement.
00:54:45.259 --> 00:54:48.079
But you can keep getting more and more and more and more muscle mass.
00:54:48.179 --> 00:54:52.879
So maybe you were relatively close to your maximum skill development,
00:54:53.059 --> 00:54:55.799
maybe not totally maxed out, but relatively close to it.
00:54:57.179 --> 00:55:01.319
And it's a relatively simple movement. So like four years later,
00:55:01.499 --> 00:55:04.079
it's like you hadn't forgotten that much about it. Still remember the fundamentals. Right?
00:55:04.559 --> 00:55:07.679
And you just developed more muscle mass and you had your girlfriend watching
00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:11.979
and maybe you were eating better or who knows, you'd slept better that,
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:13.759
maybe had more coffees that day, I don't know.
00:55:13.939 --> 00:55:17.379
But there's lots of other variables that could explain it. Yeah, okay.
00:55:18.919 --> 00:55:21.859
Good talk. All right, well, let's wind that back to our- I'm sorry.
00:55:23.059 --> 00:55:28.719
I've got to wind it right all over there. Okay. Because here in Pilates Elephant's
00:55:28.719 --> 00:55:31.959
Land, it's dinner time, and I've got family coming over.
00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:36.139
Good talk. Thanks, mate.
00:55:37.200 --> 00:55:43.386
Music.