This is Jack Donovan.

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And you're listening to or watching?

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2 to 3 arbiters

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of the general solar culture.

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And I'm here, as always,

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with my co-host, C.B.

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Robertson, author of many fine books and

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one hell of an electrician

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from what I did.

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But we're getting there.

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We're getting

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brought up.

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But yeah,

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so obviously today

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we are here to discuss books

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eight and nine.

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We decided to put them together

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because, you know,

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we've been doing this for quite a while.

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We don't

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want everyone

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to get bear with our show now,

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since we only talk about Plato

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now for like eight weeks or whatever, but

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three, two,

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we did three and four together

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and now we do eight

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and I guess

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it would be like six weeks or something.

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But total but,

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but I think it's

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a worthwhile investigation.

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I'm getting a lot of out of it

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and I would actually say,

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I mean, I'll let you do

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your normal summary

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before we get into like the nuts

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and bolts of everything. But

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compared to some of the other books,

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some of the other books of this,

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it's such a mixed bag.

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Some of the other books are tedious

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and and you kind of autistic.

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And then

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this at least eight specifically,

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I thought was really like

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I feel like I want to go back to it

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several more times and really

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because there's more to pull out it

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like you could pull so much metaphor

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out of the BS in the drones,

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the stuff that they're doing with stuff.

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And I'm like,

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I really would need to sit down

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and think about that like two more times

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to really get it, you know?

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But the broad strokes, obviously,

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I was listening to it this afternoon

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and I got that. I'm

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enjoying

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a lovely Pimm's cup today.

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This is Pimm's Cup Day

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that a lot of people know what these are,

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unless you're British,

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but it's a specialty British,

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British drink.

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It's like drinking really nice iced tea

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with a little bit of alcohol

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and it's not very much

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I usually,

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but because you know,

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to make it a little more punchy, but

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I'm not right now

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because, you know,

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I have to try and be smart

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for an hour or two.

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So but, but now I take it all started

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because

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I guess we got some fresh cucumbers

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which out of our garden which I didn't,

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you know, are growing.

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I don't pay attention

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to whatever heat is out there,

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but we have fresh cucumbers and

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fresh mint. And I'm like,

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you know what?

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That goes in a pink cup.

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And I'm like, okay, well, that's

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what I'm getting.

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So there you go.

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So, you know,

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that's kind of a cool thing.

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So anyway, but yeah,

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why don't you get started

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and give us your kind of

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overview of books

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and I know you're really excited

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about getting the book tend

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to do doing a wrap up

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because you jumped ahead.

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But take us through books

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eight and nine and

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and tell us what we're talking about.

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Sure.

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Well, I hope anyone else

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who's following along

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is getting a sense of things

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clicking together

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and maybe maybe other things

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that that seemed strange or ambiguous

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suddenly coming together

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just because we ended with book seven,

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with this sense, this very strong sense

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that maybe this wasn't a metaphor

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after all.

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Maybe this was some weird pacing

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and leading where

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you know,

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we introduced the

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Just City

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as a thought experiment,

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but this really

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could happen in real life.

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And we were just describing the nature

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of the philosopher king

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and how he would be educated

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and how it was important

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for the philosopher king

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to focus on

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transcendence and eternal things,

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things like mathematics.

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And then right

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away, the introduction of book,

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we're basically told by Socrates.

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But of course, you know,

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this city wouldn't last forever, right?

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Basically, you know, this

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there's this very strange

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mathematical explanation as to why

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why, if its collapse would be inevitable,

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some something about

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people breathing in the right season.

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But I didn't track that at all.

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I was I was completely okay.

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That's in my notes.

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We'll discuss that as we go on.

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But go ahead.

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So so basically, he he

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with the permission

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of the audience, walks

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through the process of degradation

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from the pure just city,

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which which we're told

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is like the royalist

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or monarch, just kind of

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just society

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down through the different stages

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of degradation.

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And it has a very specific order.

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First, you know,

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he describes the degradation of the

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the royal just society into a Tim ocracy

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or a Tim Archy,

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which is basically a rule by honor.

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And it's

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you have these

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these very two Monarch warrior kings

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that are competing for honor.

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And the diagnosis is

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this comes about from

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an imbalance in the gymnastic and musical

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gymnastics in modern music.

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And what

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sort of a throwback do I want to provide

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with right now?

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And so

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Mark isn't so bad, but

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there is

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this competition within the city for on

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and the love of wealth emerges

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and right and the love of wealth,

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which is executive

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sign of integration for

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a leads to the education system.

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All of an oligarchy is

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we're much more familiar with all of our

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and all of our

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wealth.

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And this

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household

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means

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that

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basically everybody

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who is involved

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in

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the oligarchy, you describe

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how the logic of oligarchy

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leads to the

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love of wealth creates a people who are

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and there's a

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at each stage it's not just like it.

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Plato takes great pains

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to explain

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the psychology of the term archaic man

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or the oligarchical man

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or the democratic demands.

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So just as know this whole investigation

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from book one forward

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or book two forward, I should say,

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is like, Let's explore the justice

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in a man by means of justice in the city.

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There's this sense in which

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we're getting a sense of

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the the

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personality of the of the man.

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Really, it's about the man, not the city.

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The city is just sort of a

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illustrative guide

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through these

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stages of degradation of the individual.

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And so there are familial

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psychological explanations like, oh,

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you know, a man is who is,

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you know, in a Timothy.

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His wife thinks he is

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not ambitious enough

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and not fighting for more money.

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And so she tells his son

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that he's only half a man.

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And so the sun

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comes up with more ambition for money

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and he becomes an informer.

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He becomes a corrupt bureaucrat and and

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the familial.

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It's like we completely threw away

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female equality

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from the earlier stages of the book.

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And we're just we're just working

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on an assumption of normal

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human psychology here again.

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Yeah, which was amusing.

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And so the oligarchic society gives

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way to a democratic society,

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and then the passage

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of the democratic

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into the tyrannical society is

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maybe the most poignant

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and interesting one.

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And he says basically,

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you know, the people,

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because people will give themselves

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so much license and so much freedom

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and have so much entitlement,

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they'll basically go

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after all the rich people

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and saying they're corrupt

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and they're friends of oligarchy

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and the rich people

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who were actually not friends of

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oligarchy will will, by necessity,

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be forced to actually

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become friends of oligarchy.

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And so a tyrant will emerge

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who is at first a friend of the people,

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who is at first all smiles and kindness.

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But then over time

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and there's this very strange

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mythical allusion

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to the eating of human flesh

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and becoming a wolf or a werewolf

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or something to that effect.

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They're just kind of thrown in,

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in the middle of

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connecting

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the tyrants to this wolf like character.

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And then the psychology

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rising of the tyrant

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and his origins are is really saved for

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book nine, but just just depicting

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not just how the society will degrade,

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but the inevitability of its degradation.

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I think,

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first of all,

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it puts the nail in the coffin

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of any

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literal interpretation of the just city.

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Yeah, it's

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I don't see how it would be possible

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for anyone to read book eight immediately

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after reading book seven.

291

00:10:10,166 --> 00:10:11,199

Whereas this, you know, the

292

00:10:11,199 --> 00:10:11,832

the Philosopher

293

00:10:11,832 --> 00:10:14,232

King focuses and is not bothered by

294

00:10:15,632 --> 00:10:17,932

the many things, the particular things,

295

00:10:18,166 --> 00:10:19,799

but the pure and the absolutes

296

00:10:19,799 --> 00:10:23,599

and the, the, the true things, the forms.

297

00:10:23,632 --> 00:10:24,166

Right.

298

00:10:24,332 --> 00:10:25,732

And then to immediately say, oh,

299

00:10:25,732 --> 00:10:26,132

by the way,

300

00:10:26,132 --> 00:10:26,966

this city,

301

00:10:26,966 --> 00:10:30,266

this is not one of those forms,

302

00:10:30,266 --> 00:10:31,332

this is

303

00:10:31,332 --> 00:10:32,766

the actual city

304

00:10:32,766 --> 00:10:35,199

would have to degrade over time. So

305

00:10:36,266 --> 00:10:38,666

even if you accept his

306

00:10:40,132 --> 00:10:42,166

argument, I think I think any literalism

307

00:10:42,166 --> 00:10:44,199

sort of dies in book eight.

308

00:10:44,199 --> 00:10:45,099

But,

309

00:10:45,566 --> 00:10:48,132

you know, perhaps there is some argument

310

00:10:48,632 --> 00:10:51,832

to save the forms for literalists.

311

00:10:52,899 --> 00:10:54,566

We will get to that in a little bit.

312

00:10:54,566 --> 00:10:55,166

But

313

00:10:56,199 --> 00:10:58,532

yeah, so so we sort of continue

314

00:10:58,532 --> 00:10:59,299

straight from book

315

00:10:59,299 --> 00:10:59,866

eight into book

316

00:10:59,866 --> 00:11:02,532

nine with the psychology of the tyrant

317

00:11:03,066 --> 00:11:05,599

who is his tyranny.

318

00:11:06,199 --> 00:11:07,999

What it culminates in as his

319

00:11:07,999 --> 00:11:11,099

tyranny is defined by behavior

320

00:11:11,099 --> 00:11:14,132

where he'll even abuse his own parents.

321

00:11:14,532 --> 00:11:15,065

And he would like

322

00:11:15,065 --> 00:11:16,299

to throw away his mother

323

00:11:16,299 --> 00:11:18,432

for some harlot that he just met

324

00:11:18,432 --> 00:11:20,099

or he would, or a boyfriend like.

325

00:11:20,099 --> 00:11:21,832

Yeah, it's explicitly about that as well.

326

00:11:21,832 --> 00:11:23,632

Yeah. Yeah.

327

00:11:23,632 --> 00:11:26,299

And he would abuse his father and

328

00:11:26,865 --> 00:11:28,599

even use force against his father

329

00:11:28,599 --> 00:11:30,565

to take his wealth and property.

330

00:11:30,565 --> 00:11:31,565

Yeah. And,

331

00:11:32,565 --> 00:11:33,565

and so

332

00:11:33,765 --> 00:11:35,999

yeah, we, we

333

00:11:36,865 --> 00:11:39,299

the young, the young Soros comes to mind.

334

00:11:39,865 --> 00:11:41,765

Yeah.

335

00:11:41,765 --> 00:11:43,932

He wants to say about the young Soros.

336

00:11:43,932 --> 00:11:44,432

Yes. Yeah.

337

00:11:44,432 --> 00:11:46,765

Yeah. I just popped in my head. Yeah.

338

00:11:47,165 --> 00:11:51,332

So it was But in book nine you also get

339

00:11:52,732 --> 00:11:55,932

it was interesting because

340

00:11:55,932 --> 00:11:58,532

it we conclude the psychology

341

00:11:58,532 --> 00:12:01,899

izing of the tyrant

342

00:12:02,599 --> 00:12:05,299

and then we get into um,

343

00:12:06,099 --> 00:12:08,732

in many ways the most, the,

344

00:12:08,832 --> 00:12:11,732

we get the pinnacle of the explicit,

345

00:12:12,032 --> 00:12:13,632

clear delineation

346

00:12:13,632 --> 00:12:17,699

of his ideas, of the forms.

347

00:12:17,699 --> 00:12:18,699

And

348

00:12:19,732 --> 00:12:22,532

as the

349

00:12:22,932 --> 00:12:25,699

it was sort of alluded to in earlier

350

00:12:25,699 --> 00:12:26,065

books,

351

00:12:26,065 --> 00:12:28,865

we were sort of primed to hear this.

352

00:12:28,865 --> 00:12:29,899

We're even

353

00:12:30,065 --> 00:12:32,432

hearing from the philosopher Kings about

354

00:12:34,032 --> 00:12:36,032

in the education of the Philosopher Kings

355

00:12:36,032 --> 00:12:37,465

about focusing on the true

356

00:12:37,465 --> 00:12:39,065

and the absolute and so forth.

357

00:12:39,065 --> 00:12:41,565

But here we actually get the sort of

358

00:12:41,565 --> 00:12:44,665

classical explication of this idea

359

00:12:44,899 --> 00:12:47,132

with reference to the table,

360

00:12:47,132 --> 00:12:49,232

which is sort of the classical example.

361

00:12:49,232 --> 00:12:51,065

There's, there's one true table,

362

00:12:51,065 --> 00:12:52,765

and it would be impossible

363

00:12:52,765 --> 00:12:53,132

for there

364

00:12:53,132 --> 00:12:56,899

to be more than two pure true tables

365

00:12:57,799 --> 00:12:58,665

with this sort of

366

00:12:58,665 --> 00:13:00,599

metaphysical interpretation.

367

00:13:02,065 --> 00:13:02,465

So, well,

368

00:13:02,465 --> 00:13:02,932

that's kind of

369

00:13:02,932 --> 00:13:04,299

and that kind of takes it back to where

370

00:13:04,299 --> 00:13:04,732

I thought

371

00:13:04,732 --> 00:13:06,365

the forms were in the first place.

372

00:13:06,365 --> 00:13:07,365

Like, yeah, like,

373

00:13:07,365 --> 00:13:09,232

okay, here's this magical okay,

374

00:13:09,232 --> 00:13:09,965

that makes you feel

375

00:13:09,965 --> 00:13:10,832

a little bit better about it

376

00:13:10,832 --> 00:13:11,465

because I was like,

377

00:13:11,465 --> 00:13:13,565

we had some questions last week and like,

378

00:13:13,565 --> 00:13:15,332

but that's, that's always the way

379

00:13:15,332 --> 00:13:16,932

I perceive the forms as being like,

380

00:13:16,932 --> 00:13:19,499

there's this idea of a table, right?

381

00:13:19,732 --> 00:13:22,332

Perfect. The perfect table.

382

00:13:22,332 --> 00:13:22,999

But

383

00:13:23,899 --> 00:13:26,099

yeah, so

384

00:13:26,999 --> 00:13:28,999

one of the things that jumped out at me

385

00:13:29,565 --> 00:13:30,832

was

386

00:13:31,799 --> 00:13:34,032

you mentioned it earlier,

387

00:13:34,032 --> 00:13:36,099

it talks about the way that

388

00:13:36,532 --> 00:13:38,765

the society degrades the perfect society,

389

00:13:38,765 --> 00:13:40,332

the perfect city degrades,

390

00:13:40,332 --> 00:13:41,665

and it's all very weird.

391

00:13:41,665 --> 00:13:42,532

And it's

392

00:13:42,832 --> 00:13:44,732

that's that weird argument

393

00:13:44,732 --> 00:13:46,199

about breeding,

394

00:13:46,199 --> 00:13:46,465

you know,

395

00:13:46,465 --> 00:13:47,132

like the breeding

396

00:13:47,132 --> 00:13:47,865

doesn't work

397

00:13:47,865 --> 00:13:49,899

or whatever, like the people have sex

398

00:13:49,899 --> 00:13:51,199

with the wrong people.

399

00:13:51,199 --> 00:13:51,899

And I think that that

400

00:13:51,899 --> 00:13:53,132

is someone else's argument,

401

00:13:53,132 --> 00:13:55,032

if I'm not mistaken.

402

00:13:55,032 --> 00:13:57,499

So what should be done? But

403

00:14:01,432 --> 00:14:01,732

in the

404

00:14:01,732 --> 00:14:04,765

context of understanding the man,

405

00:14:04,765 --> 00:14:05,565

what the fuck does

406

00:14:05,565 --> 00:14:06,699

that have to do with anything?

407

00:14:06,699 --> 00:14:07,532

That was one of the things

408

00:14:07,532 --> 00:14:08,265

that jumped out at me

409

00:14:08,265 --> 00:14:09,065

like because he did.

410

00:14:09,065 --> 00:14:10,232

I don't think they really go back

411

00:14:10,232 --> 00:14:12,232

and explain how that pertains.

412

00:14:12,232 --> 00:14:14,132

This failure of breeding pertains

413

00:14:14,132 --> 00:14:16,565

to how the man changes from,

414

00:14:18,099 --> 00:14:19,132

you know, a

415

00:14:19,132 --> 00:14:20,332

being in the perfect, you know,

416

00:14:20,332 --> 00:14:21,032

philosopher king

417

00:14:21,032 --> 00:14:22,932

kind of mindset

418

00:14:22,932 --> 00:14:24,765

to going into the democracy.

419

00:14:24,765 --> 00:14:25,132

Yeah,

420

00:14:25,132 --> 00:14:26,465

it's like the failure breeding

421

00:14:26,465 --> 00:14:28,332

seems like a like weird non-sequitur

422

00:14:28,332 --> 00:14:29,099

like for that.

423

00:14:29,099 --> 00:14:29,532

I mean,

424

00:14:29,532 --> 00:14:31,399

you can see why he would say that

425

00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:32,299

in terms of a city,

426

00:14:32,299 --> 00:14:34,699

but in terms of a man like

427

00:14:34,699 --> 00:14:36,032

what does he have?

428

00:14:36,032 --> 00:14:37,465

Like the wrong influences,

429

00:14:37,465 --> 00:14:39,232

like what is breeding?

430

00:14:39,232 --> 00:14:40,465

How does that metaphor work?

431

00:14:40,465 --> 00:14:41,199

Yeah,

432

00:14:41,199 --> 00:14:44,765

I mean, the two possible interpretations

433

00:14:44,765 --> 00:14:45,632

that jumped to mine

434

00:14:45,632 --> 00:14:47,965

and I have like 30% confidence

435

00:14:48,032 --> 00:14:49,332

in either of these.

436

00:14:49,332 --> 00:14:51,032

So take this of the grain of salt

437

00:14:51,032 --> 00:14:52,399

and add your own to this.

438

00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:54,665

But on the one hand,

439

00:14:54,665 --> 00:14:56,865

it could be interjecting

440

00:14:59,132 --> 00:14:59,732

sort of

441

00:14:59,732 --> 00:15:02,432

the real world phenomenon of entropy

442

00:15:02,932 --> 00:15:05,132

within an actual city

443

00:15:05,432 --> 00:15:08,465

to sort of blow apart people

444

00:15:08,465 --> 00:15:11,532

taking the metaphor too literally.

445

00:15:11,532 --> 00:15:12,599

So it's a look at

446

00:15:12,599 --> 00:15:13,832

look at what happened with

447

00:15:13,832 --> 00:15:15,432

I mean, we're not at the stage

448

00:15:15,432 --> 00:15:17,065

where Sparta actually collapsed,

449

00:15:17,065 --> 00:15:18,765

but for people who know

450

00:15:18,765 --> 00:15:20,465

a little bit about the history of Sparta,

451

00:15:20,465 --> 00:15:22,899

Sparta is one of the

452

00:15:22,899 --> 00:15:25,032

only nations in the world

453

00:15:25,032 --> 00:15:26,765

that eventually collapsed

454

00:15:26,765 --> 00:15:29,065

from insufficient immigration.

455

00:15:29,932 --> 00:15:32,065

It was so

456

00:15:32,065 --> 00:15:34,765

insular and the rules

457

00:15:34,765 --> 00:15:36,065

pertaining to its ruling

458

00:15:36,065 --> 00:15:38,199

class were so strict

459

00:15:38,199 --> 00:15:39,365

that its ruling class

460

00:15:39,365 --> 00:15:41,032

actually dwindled in size

461

00:15:41,032 --> 00:15:42,499

to what was basically nothing.

462

00:15:42,499 --> 00:15:46,332

And they had no new

463

00:15:46,499 --> 00:15:48,199

they had no new

464

00:15:48,199 --> 00:15:49,599

they didn't have that gadfly

465

00:15:49,599 --> 00:15:50,732

to spark more life

466

00:15:50,732 --> 00:15:52,232

and energy into their society.

467

00:15:52,232 --> 00:15:54,399

They basically stagnated to death.

468

00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:55,765

Almost no other societies

469

00:15:55,765 --> 00:15:56,499

suffer that fate.

470

00:15:56,499 --> 00:15:58,532

That's normally they go the other way.

471

00:15:59,399 --> 00:15:59,665

Right.

472

00:15:59,665 --> 00:16:01,299

But but it feels like he's

473

00:16:01,299 --> 00:16:03,499

he's just using math

474

00:16:04,065 --> 00:16:06,099

mathematics in a human context

475

00:16:06,099 --> 00:16:09,299

to imply a sort of inevitable decline.

476

00:16:09,799 --> 00:16:11,699

That's one possible interpretation.

477

00:16:11,699 --> 00:16:13,165

Another possible interpretation

478

00:16:13,165 --> 00:16:14,499

is if you listen to

479

00:16:15,465 --> 00:16:16,832

certain kinds of

480

00:16:16,832 --> 00:16:18,899

like call in therapy shows

481

00:16:20,199 --> 00:16:21,899

like the Stefon Molineux shows,

482

00:16:21,899 --> 00:16:24,332

sort of like the 2014 era,

483

00:16:24,332 --> 00:16:25,132

John Delany

484

00:16:25,132 --> 00:16:26,465

does this today

485

00:16:26,465 --> 00:16:29,565

on like Dave Ramsey's channel.

486

00:16:29,565 --> 00:16:32,365

They like figuring out

487

00:16:32,365 --> 00:16:33,932

people's problems

488

00:16:33,932 --> 00:16:36,065

by means of sort of putting everything,

489

00:16:36,365 --> 00:16:38,532

childhood traumas

490

00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:43,465

or experiences of that nature.

491

00:16:43,465 --> 00:16:45,032

It's I think we've reached a point

492

00:16:45,032 --> 00:16:47,098

493

00:16:47,098 --> 00:16:49,532

where it's been kind of overdone, but

494

00:16:50,898 --> 00:16:52,965

maybe there are some some

495

00:16:52,965 --> 00:16:54,398

metaphorical use.

496

00:16:54,398 --> 00:16:55,998

There is like, oh, there's some

497

00:16:55,998 --> 00:16:56,832

some problem

498

00:16:56,832 --> 00:16:57,732

in the family

499

00:16:57,732 --> 00:16:59,798

that leads to a degradation of the soul

500

00:17:00,598 --> 00:17:01,832

down the road,

501

00:17:01,832 --> 00:17:04,365

perhaps again, low, low confidence with

502

00:17:04,365 --> 00:17:05,798

with both of these interpretations,

503

00:17:05,798 --> 00:17:07,965

but they're possibilities.

504

00:17:07,965 --> 00:17:08,832

Yeah. Yeah.

505

00:17:08,832 --> 00:17:10,432

Well I mean his

506

00:17:10,432 --> 00:17:12,898

I thought his explanation of how

507

00:17:13,498 --> 00:17:14,332

you mentioned it

508

00:17:14,332 --> 00:17:18,798

as far as how it degrades into democracy,

509

00:17:18,798 --> 00:17:19,598

like borderline,

510

00:17:19,598 --> 00:17:20,898

almost like Freudian or something

511

00:17:20,898 --> 00:17:22,665

very like psychological like,

512

00:17:22,665 --> 00:17:24,365

oh well his mother

513

00:17:24,365 --> 00:17:25,432

won't think he's powerful

514

00:17:25,432 --> 00:17:27,132

and his father is more powerful.

515

00:17:27,132 --> 00:17:28,265

So to kind of

516

00:17:28,265 --> 00:17:30,232

tell him that his dad's a pussy

517

00:17:30,232 --> 00:17:32,198

and then that you should be more

518

00:17:32,198 --> 00:17:34,565

ambitious and like, make him fired up.

519

00:17:35,032 --> 00:17:35,998

And then that's what

520

00:17:35,998 --> 00:17:36,832

turns him into

521

00:17:36,832 --> 00:17:38,965

like a great man of honor,

522

00:17:39,132 --> 00:17:41,432

which is kind of a that's

523

00:17:42,798 --> 00:17:43,698

I'm not going to say

524

00:17:43,698 --> 00:17:45,865

that that doesn't happen,

525

00:17:45,865 --> 00:17:48,465

but that seems like an odd path to take.

526

00:17:48,465 --> 00:17:51,732

Usually it's a strong a strong paternal

527

00:17:51,732 --> 00:17:53,132

influence is what,

528

00:17:53,132 --> 00:17:54,898

like I'm trying to please dad.

529

00:17:54,898 --> 00:17:55,165

Yeah.

530

00:17:55,165 --> 00:17:56,432

And I become very like,

531

00:17:56,432 --> 00:17:57,865

associated with honor or,

532

00:17:57,865 --> 00:17:59,665

or it's a really highly

533

00:17:59,665 --> 00:18:03,098

elevated and strong father who is absent,

534

00:18:03,932 --> 00:18:06,098

who's not there or is not giving

535

00:18:06,098 --> 00:18:09,298

enough affirmation to the son.

536

00:18:09,298 --> 00:18:09,732

Right.

537

00:18:09,732 --> 00:18:12,432

And so the son then,

538

00:18:12,498 --> 00:18:14,498

you know, tries to live up to

539

00:18:14,498 --> 00:18:17,265

and honor their absent father for the

540

00:18:17,298 --> 00:18:18,298

for the affirmation.

541

00:18:18,298 --> 00:18:20,132

They never earn that affirmation.

542

00:18:20,132 --> 00:18:20,965

They never got

543

00:18:20,965 --> 00:18:21,698

that that I think

544

00:18:21,698 --> 00:18:24,932

would be a more sort of conventional

545

00:18:24,932 --> 00:18:26,632

psychoanalysis of

546

00:18:26,632 --> 00:18:28,698

maybe an Andrew Tate type character.

547

00:18:29,798 --> 00:18:31,198

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

548

00:18:31,198 --> 00:18:31,732

Like a

549

00:18:31,732 --> 00:18:33,365

you know, But I mean, yeah,

550

00:18:33,365 --> 00:18:34,998

because someone thinking

551

00:18:34,998 --> 00:18:36,465

their dad is weak

552

00:18:36,465 --> 00:18:36,832

can go

553

00:18:36,832 --> 00:18:38,598

either way,

554

00:18:38,598 --> 00:18:40,565

you know, he can go either way, like

555

00:18:40,565 --> 00:18:41,298

my dad is weak.

556

00:18:41,298 --> 00:18:42,965

So that means a different kind of

557

00:18:42,965 --> 00:18:45,232

it can create a variety of daddy issues,

558

00:18:45,232 --> 00:18:45,765

you know, like

559

00:18:45,765 --> 00:18:46,898

if they think their dad is weak.

560

00:18:46,898 --> 00:18:49,432

So we're just not ambitious enough.

561

00:18:49,432 --> 00:18:50,398

It's kind of a different thing.

562

00:18:50,398 --> 00:18:52,032

And and the other thing is that

563

00:18:53,732 --> 00:18:55,498

that almost kicks it down.

564

00:18:55,498 --> 00:18:56,465

I mean, you can see that

565

00:18:56,465 --> 00:18:57,732

working with ambition

566

00:18:57,732 --> 00:18:59,832

more like your dad doesn't,

567

00:19:00,332 --> 00:19:02,465

your dad's poor and we should be

568

00:19:03,032 --> 00:19:04,498

rich, you know, like,

569

00:19:04,498 --> 00:19:06,065

like if you were more ambitious,

570

00:19:06,065 --> 00:19:08,432

you wouldn't be poor. That that actually.

571

00:19:08,432 --> 00:19:09,932

But that would be a different stage

572

00:19:09,932 --> 00:19:11,265

of the society

573

00:19:11,265 --> 00:19:12,165

that that would kick it to,

574

00:19:12,165 --> 00:19:13,998

not the society of like the more

575

00:19:13,998 --> 00:19:14,732

the statistics

576

00:19:14,732 --> 00:19:15,498

that you describe

577

00:19:15,498 --> 00:19:17,632

that you describe that in the

578

00:19:17,898 --> 00:19:19,198

the Democrat the

579

00:19:19,198 --> 00:19:22,198

the isn't that that's the democratic

580

00:19:22,198 --> 00:19:23,965

to the oligarchic man

581

00:19:23,965 --> 00:19:26,232

is the worst that the man of honor

582

00:19:26,232 --> 00:19:29,832

who gets ruined by an unjust society

583

00:19:30,465 --> 00:19:32,832

or and loses all his wealth.

584

00:19:33,565 --> 00:19:35,198

And so the son says, well, I'm

585

00:19:35,198 --> 00:19:37,532

going to I'm going to be super wealthy.

586

00:19:38,398 --> 00:19:38,998

Yeah.

587

00:19:39,265 --> 00:19:41,665

And basically restore him.

588

00:19:41,798 --> 00:19:43,232

And there you get

589

00:19:43,232 --> 00:19:44,598

not an Alex Soros,

590

00:19:44,598 --> 00:19:47,232

but kind of a George Soros. Right?

591

00:19:47,265 --> 00:19:47,765

Right. Yes.

592

00:19:49,632 --> 00:19:50,232

Yeah.

593

00:19:50,398 --> 00:19:50,965

There's

594

00:19:50,965 --> 00:19:51,265

there's an

595

00:19:51,265 --> 00:19:51,798

interesting thing

596

00:19:51,798 --> 00:19:54,098

with that kind of transition to about,

597

00:19:54,665 --> 00:19:55,265

you know

598

00:19:57,132 --> 00:19:58,698

it when we read like the data

599

00:19:58,698 --> 00:19:59,498

and so forth

600

00:19:59,498 --> 00:20:00,265

like they're praying

601

00:20:00,265 --> 00:20:01,998

for like wealth and victory

602

00:20:01,998 --> 00:20:03,532

at the same time.

603

00:20:03,532 --> 00:20:03,898

Right.

604

00:20:03,898 --> 00:20:06,798

And one imagines that that's

605

00:20:06,798 --> 00:20:08,132

those two things are pretty

606

00:20:08,132 --> 00:20:09,432

closely tied together,

607

00:20:09,432 --> 00:20:11,098

which makes he kind of portrays it

608

00:20:11,098 --> 00:20:11,932

in that kind of way that,

609

00:20:11,932 --> 00:20:12,198

you know,

610

00:20:12,198 --> 00:20:13,465

wealth and victory,

611

00:20:13,465 --> 00:20:13,732

you know,

612

00:20:13,732 --> 00:20:15,632

like all these raiding societies,

613

00:20:15,632 --> 00:20:16,098

because we're talking

614

00:20:16,098 --> 00:20:17,698

about basically raiding societies,

615

00:20:17,698 --> 00:20:18,332

we're talking about

616

00:20:18,332 --> 00:20:20,065

the Homeric societies.

617

00:20:20,065 --> 00:20:22,232

I mean, those guys he made societies.

618

00:20:22,232 --> 00:20:22,632

Yeah,

619

00:20:22,632 --> 00:20:23,965

he may is honor

620

00:20:23,965 --> 00:20:26,132

in the form of booty, essentially. Right.

621

00:20:26,132 --> 00:20:27,465

Which is how we get democracy.

622

00:20:27,465 --> 00:20:28,665

I had to make sure where that

623

00:20:28,665 --> 00:20:29,198

word came from.

624

00:20:29,198 --> 00:20:30,332

And that's what gave me.

625

00:20:30,332 --> 00:20:31,532

It's a route to make.

626

00:20:31,532 --> 00:20:33,498

Oh, yeah, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

627

00:20:33,498 --> 00:20:35,532

Because I was like, Tim, you know, But

628

00:20:36,432 --> 00:20:38,332

what's all this about? Tim? But,

629

00:20:39,898 --> 00:20:43,398

but you know, it comes.

630

00:20:43,398 --> 00:20:44,732

But yeah,

631

00:20:44,732 --> 00:20:45,932

I mean a lot of these societies

632

00:20:45,932 --> 00:20:46,465

that are

633

00:20:46,465 --> 00:20:47,165

going after

634

00:20:47,165 --> 00:20:48,765

victory are also going after wealth

635

00:20:48,765 --> 00:20:50,132

at the same time,

636

00:20:50,132 --> 00:20:50,932

like they go

637

00:20:50,932 --> 00:20:51,998

and they take their trophies

638

00:20:51,998 --> 00:20:53,132

and their booty and whatever.

639

00:20:53,132 --> 00:20:54,032

And then the king,

640

00:20:54,032 --> 00:20:55,632

the good king distributes

641

00:20:55,632 --> 00:20:56,532

the booty

642

00:20:56,532 --> 00:20:58,632

to all the people who participated.

643

00:20:58,632 --> 00:20:59,898

We're talking about Vikings

644

00:20:59,898 --> 00:21:01,132

or like the Vedic Warriors

645

00:21:01,132 --> 00:21:02,032

or all these

646

00:21:02,032 --> 00:21:03,732

raiding societies, like,

647

00:21:03,732 --> 00:21:05,465

yeah, distributes the wealth.

648

00:21:05,465 --> 00:21:08,498

So then the shifts from the t market into

649

00:21:08,498 --> 00:21:10,532

the oligarchy is

650

00:21:11,698 --> 00:21:14,332

like less shift in external

651

00:21:14,832 --> 00:21:16,465

demonstration and value,

652

00:21:16,465 --> 00:21:18,298

but it's a shift in psychology as to

653

00:21:18,298 --> 00:21:20,132

why are you pursuing wealth

654

00:21:20,132 --> 00:21:21,332

or you're pursuing wealth

655

00:21:21,332 --> 00:21:22,532

because it demonstrates

656

00:21:22,532 --> 00:21:24,098

how honorable you are,

657

00:21:24,098 --> 00:21:25,665

or are you pursuing wealth

658

00:21:25,665 --> 00:21:27,665

kind of for its own sake

659

00:21:27,665 --> 00:21:28,732

and the oligarchy?

660

00:21:28,732 --> 00:21:30,932

Coleman This is actually,

661

00:21:31,532 --> 00:21:33,065

if not a coward,

662

00:21:33,065 --> 00:21:34,432

then at least he's not particularly

663

00:21:34,432 --> 00:21:35,732

concerned about honor.

664

00:21:36,798 --> 00:21:37,498

And he's not

665

00:21:37,498 --> 00:21:39,998

going to to run into fight necessarily

666

00:21:41,232 --> 00:21:42,865

where we're Honor's on the line.

667

00:21:42,865 --> 00:21:43,898

It's about the money.

668

00:21:43,898 --> 00:21:44,398

Where's the

669

00:21:44,398 --> 00:21:48,132

the the to market man to democratic

670

00:21:48,832 --> 00:21:49,532

anyways

671

00:21:49,532 --> 00:21:49,865

I don't

672

00:21:49,865 --> 00:21:51,665

how you conjugate that definitively

673

00:21:51,665 --> 00:21:54,332

but the Tim Socratic man is like

674

00:21:54,332 --> 00:21:55,365

he wants wealth

675

00:21:55,365 --> 00:21:57,532

because it shows how honorable he is.

676

00:21:57,532 --> 00:21:59,532

It's it's the proof of his value

677

00:22:00,698 --> 00:22:03,365

which you know there's so many parts

678

00:22:03,365 --> 00:22:04,632

in this

679

00:22:05,298 --> 00:22:06,465

that I can't figure out

680

00:22:06,465 --> 00:22:08,698

what stage we're at in platonic

681

00:22:09,098 --> 00:22:11,932

like in it's tonic progression

682

00:22:11,932 --> 00:22:13,831

because this chapter eight

683

00:22:13,831 --> 00:22:15,231

specifically like book eight

684

00:22:15,231 --> 00:22:17,498

specifically is

685

00:22:17,498 --> 00:22:18,131

quotable

686

00:22:18,131 --> 00:22:19,865

the whole way through about problems

687

00:22:19,865 --> 00:22:21,198

with government.

688

00:22:21,498 --> 00:22:23,965

But our society has all of them.

689

00:22:24,631 --> 00:22:27,698

It's like, like it's I'm like, I'm like,

690

00:22:27,698 --> 00:22:28,931

which which one?

691

00:22:28,931 --> 00:22:29,398

I mean,

692

00:22:29,398 --> 00:22:29,931

not like

693

00:22:29,931 --> 00:22:31,365

and that's the thing with these systems

694

00:22:31,365 --> 00:22:32,131

is that

695

00:22:32,698 --> 00:22:33,431

people over

696

00:22:33,431 --> 00:22:34,065

try to

697

00:22:34,065 --> 00:22:35,998

try to fit the situation to the system

698

00:22:35,998 --> 00:22:37,798

rather than like evaluating the system

699

00:22:37,798 --> 00:22:39,798

as it's functioning at right now.

700

00:22:39,931 --> 00:22:40,831

You know, like what

701

00:22:40,831 --> 00:22:42,098

here's what's happening right now

702

00:22:42,098 --> 00:22:42,798

versus like,

703

00:22:42,798 --> 00:22:43,798

okay, that was a system

704

00:22:43,798 --> 00:22:44,931

that's theoretical.

705

00:22:44,931 --> 00:22:46,565

Let's not over apply that.

706

00:22:46,565 --> 00:22:49,198

But there's just a lot of great qualities

707

00:22:49,198 --> 00:22:49,965

to like the things

708

00:22:49,965 --> 00:22:51,031

that are happening now.

709

00:22:51,031 --> 00:22:52,698

You know, his he just go ahead

710

00:22:54,131 --> 00:22:55,298

Greg knowledge is

711

00:22:55,298 --> 00:22:58,531

explication of hesiod's

712

00:22:58,531 --> 00:23:00,631

works and days generations

713

00:23:01,131 --> 00:23:03,631

you know we've we've got the the earlier

714

00:23:03,631 --> 00:23:03,998

we heard

715

00:23:03,998 --> 00:23:05,265

the gold

716

00:23:05,265 --> 00:23:06,031

population

717

00:23:06,031 --> 00:23:08,131

the silver population in our city

718

00:23:08,131 --> 00:23:10,031

but in Hessians works and days

719

00:23:10,031 --> 00:23:10,665

and Hessian was a

720

00:23:10,665 --> 00:23:13,031

contemporary of Homer and a poet.

721

00:23:13,031 --> 00:23:14,498

So I don't know if we're supposed

722

00:23:14,498 --> 00:23:15,498

to censor him or not,

723

00:23:15,498 --> 00:23:17,798

if we're going to invoke his tools here.

724

00:23:17,798 --> 00:23:19,565

But do you describes

725

00:23:19,565 --> 00:23:21,898

the generations of men he's sort of the

726

00:23:22,231 --> 00:23:23,431

the the

727

00:23:23,431 --> 00:23:24,931

the father of the

728

00:23:24,931 --> 00:23:26,898

or at least the first excavator

729

00:23:26,898 --> 00:23:27,998

and writing

730

00:23:27,998 --> 00:23:30,431

of the like generational cycle theory,

731

00:23:30,665 --> 00:23:31,531

the sort of write

732

00:23:31,531 --> 00:23:33,731

good men, create good times, create bad,

733

00:23:33,731 --> 00:23:35,498

and then create bad times

734

00:23:35,498 --> 00:23:36,998

that cycle is has it

735

00:23:36,998 --> 00:23:38,598

it's his gold, silver,

736

00:23:38,598 --> 00:23:39,631

bronze, iron,

737

00:23:39,631 --> 00:23:41,065

nameless generations, right.

738

00:23:41,065 --> 00:23:41,998

And this cycling

739

00:23:41,998 --> 00:23:44,798

and what Greg Nash points out,

740

00:23:44,798 --> 00:23:46,531

because it gives these long descriptions

741

00:23:46,531 --> 00:23:48,631

of the psychology of these types,

742

00:23:48,631 --> 00:23:51,198

Greg now says these are

743

00:23:51,931 --> 00:23:53,465

the gold generation

744

00:23:54,631 --> 00:23:55,598

are the positive

745

00:23:55,598 --> 00:23:58,631

qualities of cult heroes, and the bronze

746

00:23:58,631 --> 00:24:00,331

generation are the negative qualities

747

00:24:00,331 --> 00:24:01,731

of cult heroes.

748

00:24:01,731 --> 00:24:02,831

The Silver Generation

749

00:24:02,831 --> 00:24:05,498

are the positive cult qualities of

750

00:24:06,831 --> 00:24:08,731

cults, adherents

751

00:24:08,731 --> 00:24:10,865

of cult practitioners of citizens

752

00:24:10,865 --> 00:24:12,798

and the Iron Generation.

753

00:24:12,798 --> 00:24:14,798

Cost of debt shows off

754

00:24:14,798 --> 00:24:16,798

all the negative qualities.

755

00:24:16,798 --> 00:24:19,065

So the worst versions.

756

00:24:19,065 --> 00:24:21,531

And so what you see in any story

757

00:24:22,031 --> 00:24:23,431

is all

758

00:24:23,431 --> 00:24:25,165

the characters have all the traits.

759

00:24:25,165 --> 00:24:27,798

Achilles is gold and he is bronze.

760

00:24:28,598 --> 00:24:29,431

You know,

761

00:24:29,431 --> 00:24:33,198

these cult practitioners are silver

762

00:24:33,198 --> 00:24:35,731

and they are iron.

763

00:24:35,731 --> 00:24:38,465

All of the generations are in each

764

00:24:38,465 --> 00:24:40,098

literal generation.

765

00:24:40,098 --> 00:24:42,865

And I think it's

766

00:24:42,865 --> 00:24:44,131

the fact that,

767

00:24:44,131 --> 00:24:44,365

you know,

768

00:24:44,365 --> 00:24:45,931

Socrates was saying,

769

00:24:45,931 --> 00:24:47,065

and you'll see this in

770

00:24:47,065 --> 00:24:48,665

an oligarchic societies

771

00:24:48,665 --> 00:24:50,365

and golf.com will say,

772

00:24:50,365 --> 00:24:51,498

I am very familiar with

773

00:24:51,498 --> 00:24:52,831

that, I've seen it outside

774

00:24:54,131 --> 00:24:56,498

And then but he'll say the same thing

775

00:24:56,865 --> 00:24:58,631

about another society

776

00:24:58,631 --> 00:25:00,631

like the timber, timber cratic

777

00:25:00,631 --> 00:25:01,765

or the democratic.

778

00:25:01,765 --> 00:25:02,298

They're of course

779

00:25:02,298 --> 00:25:04,231

living in the Athenian democracy

780

00:25:04,231 --> 00:25:05,831

at the time of this writing.

781

00:25:05,831 --> 00:25:09,898

So one gets the sense that not only

782

00:25:09,898 --> 00:25:11,098

are we living through

783

00:25:11,098 --> 00:25:13,231

all of these different phases at once,

784

00:25:13,231 --> 00:25:14,531

but perhaps they were living

785

00:25:14,531 --> 00:25:15,898

through all these phases

786

00:25:15,898 --> 00:25:19,765

at once 2400 years ago as well, right.

787

00:25:19,765 --> 00:25:20,765

Which kind of, you know,

788

00:25:20,765 --> 00:25:21,865

just degrades the

789

00:25:21,865 --> 00:25:23,265

the value of the system

790

00:25:23,265 --> 00:25:24,431

to a certain extent. Yeah.

791

00:25:24,431 --> 00:25:24,831

That's a

792

00:25:24,831 --> 00:25:25,831

we're just talking

793

00:25:25,831 --> 00:25:27,498

about different characteristics

794

00:25:27,498 --> 00:25:27,931

that are happening

795

00:25:27,931 --> 00:25:29,131

at the same time, different people.

796

00:25:29,131 --> 00:25:30,665

And and that's

797

00:25:30,831 --> 00:25:31,765

where it is interesting

798

00:25:31,765 --> 00:25:32,198

because we're talking

799

00:25:32,198 --> 00:25:34,131

about different kinds of men

800

00:25:34,131 --> 00:25:34,698

and different,

801

00:25:34,698 --> 00:25:35,865

you know, if we take it back

802

00:25:35,865 --> 00:25:37,098

to talking about difference,

803

00:25:37,098 --> 00:25:38,731

it makes more sense than talking

804

00:25:38,731 --> 00:25:39,798

about different stages of government

805

00:25:39,798 --> 00:25:41,131

because those things

806

00:25:41,131 --> 00:25:42,331

don't always go together

807

00:25:42,331 --> 00:25:44,498

in the same way that they're describing.

808

00:25:44,498 --> 00:25:46,531

Yeah, it's a good it's a nice it's a nice

809

00:25:46,998 --> 00:25:48,398

just so story.

810

00:25:48,398 --> 00:25:48,931

But like,

811

00:25:48,931 --> 00:25:49,431

those things

812

00:25:49,431 --> 00:25:51,631

don't actually always happen in that way.

813

00:25:51,831 --> 00:25:53,798

It's it's as you mentioned

814

00:25:53,798 --> 00:25:55,898

I actually thought of the whatever

815

00:25:56,865 --> 00:25:59,931

bad times great strong man whatever

816

00:25:59,931 --> 00:26:02,098

metaphor you know statement as well

817

00:26:03,331 --> 00:26:05,331

while I was listening to this

818

00:26:05,331 --> 00:26:07,465

and it seems like another attempt

819

00:26:07,465 --> 00:26:09,165

to create like this is what happens

820

00:26:09,165 --> 00:26:10,165

and then this is what happens

821

00:26:10,165 --> 00:26:10,831

and that's what happens.

822

00:26:10,831 --> 00:26:11,598

And it's like

823

00:26:11,731 --> 00:26:13,698

it doesn't really necessarily happen

824

00:26:13,698 --> 00:26:14,098

that way.

825

00:26:14,098 --> 00:26:15,165

As you said, with Sparta,

826

00:26:15,165 --> 00:26:17,798

it happened a different way.

827

00:26:17,798 --> 00:26:19,065

And like

828

00:26:19,065 --> 00:26:19,831

with our society,

829

00:26:19,831 --> 00:26:20,831

one of the one of my notes

830

00:26:20,831 --> 00:26:21,798

that I think I wrote down with

831

00:26:21,798 --> 00:26:22,731

I freestyle

832

00:26:22,731 --> 00:26:25,431

with without looking at it, but

833

00:26:25,531 --> 00:26:27,198

I was thinking about,

834

00:26:27,198 --> 00:26:30,065

you know, oligarchy and

835

00:26:32,431 --> 00:26:35,065

so forth and like the pure

836

00:26:35,065 --> 00:26:36,331

valuation of money,

837

00:26:36,331 --> 00:26:36,731

like,

838

00:26:36,731 --> 00:26:39,331

like the people that become in power

839

00:26:39,331 --> 00:26:39,965

in oligarchy,

840

00:26:39,965 --> 00:26:40,531

because he's talking

841

00:26:40,531 --> 00:26:41,998

kind of positively about the people

842

00:26:41,998 --> 00:26:43,831

who come to power in oligarchies.

843

00:26:43,831 --> 00:26:45,931

And what I wanted to bring up was that

844

00:26:46,731 --> 00:26:47,698

according to

845

00:26:48,965 --> 00:26:51,231

that book on human universals,

846

00:26:51,231 --> 00:26:53,365

I think Donald Brown, it's title, but

847

00:26:54,665 --> 00:26:58,531

according that book on human universals

848

00:26:59,098 --> 00:27:00,198

oligarchy is actually

849

00:27:00,198 --> 00:27:02,931

the human universal form of government.

850

00:27:03,431 --> 00:27:03,731

Like,

851

00:27:03,731 --> 00:27:05,731

that's the one that we always actually

852

00:27:05,731 --> 00:27:07,598

that's what's actually happening.

853

00:27:07,598 --> 00:27:08,698

Like, oh,

854

00:27:08,698 --> 00:27:11,531

and it's an ugly truth, but I believe it.

855

00:27:12,298 --> 00:27:12,431

Yeah.

856

00:27:12,431 --> 00:27:14,731

Like that's how shit actually runs.

857

00:27:14,731 --> 00:27:17,665

And the thing is, is that

858

00:27:18,031 --> 00:27:20,131

normally that would make a lot of sense

859

00:27:21,031 --> 00:27:22,698

in terms of

860

00:27:23,998 --> 00:27:25,865

if you're a landowner who is running

861

00:27:25,865 --> 00:27:27,365

multiple things,

862

00:27:27,365 --> 00:27:28,831

multiple areas of land,

863

00:27:28,831 --> 00:27:30,831

multiple companies, multiple investments,

864

00:27:30,831 --> 00:27:32,731

multiple things across the board,

865

00:27:32,731 --> 00:27:33,631

you're actually fairly

866

00:27:33,631 --> 00:27:34,698

competent individual

867

00:27:34,698 --> 00:27:37,865

and your skill is management.

868

00:27:37,865 --> 00:27:39,731

And to have you managing society

869

00:27:39,731 --> 00:27:40,598

as well

870

00:27:40,598 --> 00:27:43,165

is not really that big of a stretch.

871

00:27:43,165 --> 00:27:45,198

I mean, in America, I mean that's like

872

00:27:46,198 --> 00:27:46,831

that's

873

00:27:47,764 --> 00:27:49,664

we've kind of unfortunately elevated shoe

874

00:27:49,664 --> 00:27:50,631

salesman like the people

875

00:27:50,631 --> 00:27:51,898

who are best selling

876

00:27:51,898 --> 00:27:52,564

rather than people

877

00:27:52,564 --> 00:27:54,498

we're best at managing.

878

00:27:54,498 --> 00:27:55,831

But well,

879

00:27:55,831 --> 00:27:56,564

the idea

880

00:27:56,564 --> 00:27:58,698

that like a mid-level of wealth

881

00:27:58,698 --> 00:27:59,464

which to

882

00:27:59,464 --> 00:28:00,364

guys like us

883

00:28:00,364 --> 00:28:03,364

is like already obscenely above our heads

884

00:28:03,398 --> 00:28:05,098

in terms of the numbers.

885

00:28:05,098 --> 00:28:06,931

But but then you get

886

00:28:06,931 --> 00:28:09,798

a guy like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk,

887

00:28:10,264 --> 00:28:13,198

they're not just salesmen, you know?

888

00:28:13,264 --> 00:28:14,231

Well, yeah,

889

00:28:14,364 --> 00:28:15,264

yeah, well, that's what I mean.

890

00:28:15,264 --> 00:28:16,131

Like America

891

00:28:16,131 --> 00:28:17,131

elevates Salesman

892

00:28:17,131 --> 00:28:18,731

because you have to sell

893

00:28:18,731 --> 00:28:19,864

yourself to the people

894

00:28:19,864 --> 00:28:21,431

and that's what they're good at.

895

00:28:21,431 --> 00:28:24,031

Whereas the, you know, like master,

896

00:28:25,098 --> 00:28:27,631

master, like managers

897

00:28:27,631 --> 00:28:28,831

who are really doing stuff behind

898

00:28:28,831 --> 00:28:29,698

the scenes are not

899

00:28:29,698 --> 00:28:31,698

maybe as much interested

900

00:28:31,698 --> 00:28:33,398

in being public figures

901

00:28:33,398 --> 00:28:35,764

or are not as interested in selling,

902

00:28:35,764 --> 00:28:37,864

but they're big idea guys, right?

903

00:28:37,864 --> 00:28:39,731

You know, so they they hire,

904

00:28:39,731 --> 00:28:41,231

they hire people to sell for them.

905

00:28:41,231 --> 00:28:42,998

Whereas like the

906

00:28:42,998 --> 00:28:44,231

the presidential candidate

907

00:28:44,231 --> 00:28:46,198

has to be kind of a personality

908

00:28:46,198 --> 00:28:47,831

and Yeah, and be a salesman.

909

00:28:47,831 --> 00:28:49,364

So that's kind of the difference.

910

00:28:49,364 --> 00:28:50,931

And, and I was thinking of that

911

00:28:50,931 --> 00:28:52,798

in terms of, you know,

912

00:28:52,798 --> 00:28:54,031

some of the problems with,

913

00:28:55,031 --> 00:28:56,364

you know, the

914

00:28:57,364 --> 00:28:58,798

the way our society is oriented.

915

00:28:58,798 --> 00:28:59,298

And I've always said

916

00:28:59,298 --> 00:29:02,064

this is my criticisms of like

917

00:29:02,064 --> 00:29:03,664

I won't say capitalism because that's a

918

00:29:03,664 --> 00:29:05,198

almost a meaningless word.

919

00:29:05,198 --> 00:29:07,431

But the way ours is set up

920

00:29:07,998 --> 00:29:10,064

in terms of like the stock market

921

00:29:11,164 --> 00:29:13,498

and the way that things like that work,

922

00:29:13,498 --> 00:29:13,898

I mean, there's

923

00:29:13,898 --> 00:29:16,231

so much focus on short term investment

924

00:29:17,831 --> 00:29:19,398

and short term gain

925

00:29:19,398 --> 00:29:20,964

rather than like long term gain,

926

00:29:20,964 --> 00:29:22,764

whereas like when you had monarchs,

927

00:29:22,764 --> 00:29:24,598

there's like a long term investment

928

00:29:24,598 --> 00:29:26,531

because there's legacy. Yes.

929

00:29:26,531 --> 00:29:28,831

And then there's and if you have

930

00:29:28,831 --> 00:29:29,398

like your Andrew

931

00:29:29,398 --> 00:29:32,164

Carnegie type, like robber baron kind of

932

00:29:33,364 --> 00:29:33,831

those guys

933

00:29:33,831 --> 00:29:35,598

wanted their names on buildings

934

00:29:35,598 --> 00:29:37,598

and they wanted to like, create a legacy.

935

00:29:37,598 --> 00:29:38,864

And it was the same thing.

936

00:29:38,864 --> 00:29:40,331

But now you have people who

937

00:29:40,331 --> 00:29:41,431

some of the wealthiest people,

938

00:29:41,431 --> 00:29:42,531

we don't even know who they are,

939

00:29:42,531 --> 00:29:44,831

and they just kind of like run shit.

940

00:29:45,231 --> 00:29:46,831

And because they're doing short

941

00:29:46,831 --> 00:29:47,731

term thing

942

00:29:47,731 --> 00:29:49,531

buying out companies, this one sucks.

943

00:29:49,531 --> 00:29:51,164

Let's buy it and turn it into this one.

944

00:29:51,164 --> 00:29:53,131

You know, like they're doing that kind of

945

00:29:54,164 --> 00:29:54,698

it's it

946

00:29:54,698 --> 00:29:56,031

seems a lot more oriented

947

00:29:56,031 --> 00:29:57,031

towards short term investing.

948

00:29:57,031 --> 00:29:58,131

Even the way that our society

949

00:29:58,131 --> 00:29:59,031

is is oriented that way.

950

00:29:59,031 --> 00:30:01,464

Like even the way they buy houses, it's

951

00:30:02,131 --> 00:30:04,131

buy houses to like to flip.

952

00:30:04,631 --> 00:30:05,231

So can I,

953

00:30:05,231 --> 00:30:07,064

can I read a short poem that I think

954

00:30:07,064 --> 00:30:09,031

is a transition from exactly the point

955

00:30:09,031 --> 00:30:10,631

you're talking about? Yes.

956

00:30:10,631 --> 00:30:12,831

To It's a poem by Ezra Pound.

957

00:30:12,864 --> 00:30:14,798

So who's a bit of a controversial figure

958

00:30:14,798 --> 00:30:15,498

in some circles,

959

00:30:15,498 --> 00:30:16,698

but it's sure it's called

960

00:30:16,698 --> 00:30:21,598

you Sura or Canto something,

961

00:30:21,598 --> 00:30:23,431

and it's about usury.

962

00:30:23,431 --> 00:30:24,364

And I feel like

963

00:30:24,364 --> 00:30:27,898

it touches in with the oligarchical man.

964

00:30:28,564 --> 00:30:31,864

But it let it's, it's like a segway

965

00:30:31,864 --> 00:30:32,798

into this conversation

966

00:30:32,798 --> 00:30:33,564

about the forms

967

00:30:33,564 --> 00:30:35,164

that we get into in Book nine

968

00:30:35,164 --> 00:30:36,498

and who is happier

969

00:30:36,498 --> 00:30:38,331

and is the philosophical man

970

00:30:38,331 --> 00:30:41,131

really 727 times happier than the

971

00:30:42,498 --> 00:30:43,431

the tyrants.

972

00:30:43,431 --> 00:30:45,931

But we'll get into that in a minute.

973

00:30:45,931 --> 00:30:48,498

Ezra Pound writes with you, sir,

974

00:30:48,498 --> 00:30:50,998

I have no man House of Good Stone.

975

00:30:50,998 --> 00:30:53,398

Each block cut smooth and well-fitting.

976

00:30:53,564 --> 00:30:55,564

The design might cover their face

977

00:30:55,864 --> 00:30:56,264

with you.

978

00:30:56,264 --> 00:30:57,931

Sir, I have no man that painted

979

00:30:57,931 --> 00:31:00,064

paradise on his church wall.

980

00:31:00,064 --> 00:31:02,331

Pays it loose or wear a virgin.

981

00:31:02,331 --> 00:31:03,464

Receive this message

982

00:31:03,464 --> 00:31:05,864

and halo projects from incision

983

00:31:05,864 --> 00:31:06,531

with you, sir.

984

00:31:06,531 --> 00:31:08,098

I'll see if no man Gonzaga,

985

00:31:08,098 --> 00:31:09,964

his heirs and his concubines.

986

00:31:09,964 --> 00:31:10,764

No pictures

987

00:31:10,764 --> 00:31:12,998

made to endure nor to live with,

988

00:31:13,464 --> 00:31:15,698

but is made to sell and sell quickly

989

00:31:15,964 --> 00:31:18,131

with you Sura sinned against nature.

990

00:31:18,131 --> 00:31:20,931

Is thy bread ever more of stale rags

991

00:31:21,231 --> 00:31:23,098

as thy bread dry as paper

992

00:31:23,098 --> 00:31:24,731

with no mountain of wheat,

993

00:31:24,731 --> 00:31:26,664

no strong flour with you,

994

00:31:26,664 --> 00:31:29,431

Sura the line grows thick with you.

995

00:31:29,431 --> 00:31:31,598

Sara is no clear demarcation,

996

00:31:31,898 --> 00:31:33,798

and no man can find sites

997

00:31:33,798 --> 00:31:35,198

for his dwelling

998

00:31:35,198 --> 00:31:38,598

stonecutters kept from his stone weavers

999

00:31:38,598 --> 00:31:40,164

kept from his loom

00:31:40,164 --> 00:31:43,298

with you, Sura war comes not to market

00:31:43,631 --> 00:31:46,098

sheep bring us no gain with you Sura

00:31:46,431 --> 00:31:48,198

you Sura is a marine You,

00:31:48,198 --> 00:31:49,164

sir a blunt It's

00:31:49,164 --> 00:31:50,898

the needle in the maid's hand

00:31:50,898 --> 00:31:52,864

and stop with the spinners Cunning

00:31:52,864 --> 00:31:55,131

Pietro Lombardo came not by you, sir,

00:31:55,664 --> 00:31:56,431

to choke.

00:31:56,431 --> 00:31:57,598

Not by you, sir.

00:31:57,598 --> 00:32:00,931

Not paddle out, Francesca Swan The

00:32:01,231 --> 00:32:01,798

not by you,

00:32:01,798 --> 00:32:03,631

Sura, nor was La

00:32:03,631 --> 00:32:05,798

Colonia painted in not by you.

00:32:05,798 --> 00:32:09,331

Zara Angelico Cannot Ambrogio produce

00:32:09,931 --> 00:32:10,398

him? No.

00:32:10,398 --> 00:32:11,231

Church of Cut

00:32:11,231 --> 00:32:13,898

Stone signed Adam on this account.

00:32:14,531 --> 00:32:15,431

Not by you, sir.

00:32:15,431 --> 00:32:17,031

Central theme, not by you.

00:32:17,031 --> 00:32:19,064

So I say Hilaire, you sir

00:32:19,064 --> 00:32:20,598

rustic the chisel

00:32:20,598 --> 00:32:22,798

it rust if the craft and the craftsman

00:32:23,631 --> 00:32:25,631

it knife the thread in the loom

00:32:25,898 --> 00:32:26,731

none learn us

00:32:26,731 --> 00:32:29,164

to weave gold in her pattern

00:32:29,164 --> 00:32:32,131

Asura hath a canker by you sura come

00:32:32,131 --> 00:32:34,031

Why is unbridled

00:32:34,031 --> 00:32:36,231

emerald find us no memory

00:32:36,231 --> 00:32:38,531

You saw a slave The child in the womb

00:32:38,998 --> 00:32:40,998

is if the young man's courting

00:32:41,198 --> 00:32:43,531

It has brought palsy to bed.

00:32:43,531 --> 00:32:45,298

Life between the young bride

00:32:45,298 --> 00:32:47,898

and her bridegroom can't run the term

00:32:48,331 --> 00:32:50,631

they have brought horrors for illnesses.

00:32:51,264 --> 00:32:53,964

Corpses are set to banquet at behest

00:32:54,064 --> 00:32:54,798

of you, sir.

00:32:56,264 --> 00:32:57,764

And it's

00:32:57,764 --> 00:33:00,931

a it's describing the corruption

00:33:01,331 --> 00:33:04,331

that, you know, it's not just money.

00:33:04,564 --> 00:33:05,631

You you

00:33:06,031 --> 00:33:07,298

there's a reading of this

00:33:07,298 --> 00:33:09,198

where Ezra Pound says this is

00:33:09,198 --> 00:33:10,231

this is so misunderstood.

00:33:10,231 --> 00:33:12,164

Usury is not just interest

00:33:12,164 --> 00:33:13,931

user, it's not just charging interest.

00:33:13,931 --> 00:33:16,931

Something usury is charging

00:33:17,464 --> 00:33:20,397

for the privilege of the usage of money,

00:33:21,331 --> 00:33:23,031

which is different.

00:33:23,031 --> 00:33:26,731

And it leads to

00:33:26,997 --> 00:33:29,431

shifts in perception.

00:33:29,431 --> 00:33:32,331

And I think I think when what

00:33:32,364 --> 00:33:33,431

we see in Book nine,

00:33:33,431 --> 00:33:34,964

which is the conclusion

00:33:34,964 --> 00:33:37,031

of the psychology of the tyrant

00:33:37,697 --> 00:33:39,197

and suddenly shifts into this

00:33:39,197 --> 00:33:42,331

talk about the forms and the true thing

00:33:42,664 --> 00:33:45,131

as opposed to

00:33:46,164 --> 00:33:49,464

these images and these discrete things

00:33:49,464 --> 00:33:51,564

connected to these psychologies

00:33:51,564 --> 00:33:53,597

of these various

00:33:53,764 --> 00:33:55,531

oligarchical and technocratic

00:33:55,531 --> 00:33:56,264

and democratic

00:33:56,264 --> 00:33:57,697

and tyrannical men

00:33:57,697 --> 00:34:00,231

is a is a psychology of misperception.

00:34:00,231 --> 00:34:01,564

And the person I was

00:34:01,564 --> 00:34:02,864

talking with this poem about

00:34:04,531 --> 00:34:05,464

it, it it

00:34:05,464 --> 00:34:06,364

occurred to me sort

00:34:06,364 --> 00:34:07,531

of as I was describing this,

00:34:07,531 --> 00:34:09,264

like this is how people

00:34:09,264 --> 00:34:11,297

buy things sometimes

00:34:11,297 --> 00:34:13,831

suppose you are buying going to buy a car

00:34:14,564 --> 00:34:16,397

and you've got five men

00:34:16,397 --> 00:34:18,964

who are going to buy a car.

00:34:18,964 --> 00:34:21,031

One man is an auto mechanic,

00:34:22,197 --> 00:34:26,131

one guy is Andrew Tate.

00:34:26,131 --> 00:34:28,297

One guy is

00:34:28,297 --> 00:34:30,764

whatever the top Rothschild is right now.

00:34:30,764 --> 00:34:32,764

I don't know who that is, but

00:34:32,764 --> 00:34:35,631

why is super wealthy guys?

00:34:35,631 --> 00:34:37,297

And the fourth guy

00:34:37,297 --> 00:34:39,097

is fill in the blank

00:34:39,097 --> 00:34:40,764

with your democratic then

00:34:40,764 --> 00:34:41,897

and then the fifth is your

00:34:41,897 --> 00:34:45,031

your tyrannical men like the mindset

00:34:45,397 --> 00:34:47,564

of how and suppose they choose cars

00:34:47,564 --> 00:34:48,931

based upon the psychology

00:34:48,931 --> 00:34:50,631

of these five categories.

00:34:50,631 --> 00:34:52,731

You can easily imagine,

00:34:52,731 --> 00:34:52,964

you know,

00:34:52,964 --> 00:34:54,264

the auto mechanic

00:34:54,264 --> 00:34:57,064

is going to choose his car based upon

00:34:57,564 --> 00:35:01,097

the mechanical excellence of the design.

00:35:02,331 --> 00:35:04,897

You know, like there's a he's like,

00:35:05,064 --> 00:35:08,197

I care about how well the engine is made,

00:35:08,497 --> 00:35:10,297

so he might go with a Porsche 911.

00:35:10,297 --> 00:35:11,564

I'm not a car person.

00:35:11,564 --> 00:35:13,164

I'm just like throwing out something

00:35:13,164 --> 00:35:15,231

I've heard that mechanics like.

00:35:15,264 --> 00:35:16,197

So I'm

00:35:16,197 --> 00:35:16,964

I'm not I'm

00:35:16,964 --> 00:35:19,097

not the philosopher king of cars here.

00:35:20,064 --> 00:35:21,197

Right. But

00:35:22,031 --> 00:35:23,697

but you know what?

00:35:23,697 --> 00:35:26,064

What's the psychology

00:35:26,064 --> 00:35:28,164

that would cause someone to choose?

00:35:28,831 --> 00:35:31,531

For example, a Bugatti

00:35:31,531 --> 00:35:33,964

is the sort of person who buys a Bugatti,

00:35:34,964 --> 00:35:37,831

like just enamored with the details

00:35:37,831 --> 00:35:39,931

of the design

00:35:39,997 --> 00:35:41,931

of like the engine,

00:35:41,931 --> 00:35:44,597

or are they getting it as a status symbol

00:35:45,064 --> 00:35:46,597

or are they a step

00:35:46,597 --> 00:35:50,297

removed from excellence

00:35:50,531 --> 00:35:51,897

from the sort of truth

00:35:51,897 --> 00:35:53,931

of the thing in itself?

00:35:53,931 --> 00:35:56,197

And we have this wonderful illustration

00:35:56,197 --> 00:35:58,764

at the Oh, no, that's important.

00:35:58,797 --> 00:35:59,364

I'm sorry.

00:35:59,364 --> 00:36:01,864

I will I will not go there just yet. I'm

00:36:03,264 --> 00:36:04,631

jumping ahead of myself there

00:36:04,631 --> 00:36:05,031

a little bit.

00:36:05,031 --> 00:36:05,431

But

00:36:07,331 --> 00:36:08,631

like that's

00:36:08,631 --> 00:36:11,964

where we talk about images and stuff.

00:36:11,964 --> 00:36:13,431

So there's a way

00:36:13,431 --> 00:36:15,364

to read all this psychology

00:36:15,364 --> 00:36:18,031

izing of the different kinds of men

00:36:18,264 --> 00:36:19,031

who are represented

00:36:19,031 --> 00:36:21,164

by these different ways of running a city

00:36:21,164 --> 00:36:24,631

as sort of degrees of separation

00:36:24,631 --> 00:36:26,064

from the truth.

00:36:26,064 --> 00:36:28,931

And this truth isn't

00:36:28,931 --> 00:36:31,864

necessarily a metaphysical truth like,

00:36:31,864 --> 00:36:34,331

not like what is real in the world,

00:36:34,864 --> 00:36:37,597

but more close to the question of

00:36:38,031 --> 00:36:40,264

where is happiness,

00:36:40,264 --> 00:36:41,431

which was the question

00:36:41,431 --> 00:36:43,897

which started this whole interrogation

00:36:44,397 --> 00:36:47,497

as who is happier, the just man

00:36:47,497 --> 00:36:50,697

or the tyrant?

00:36:50,697 --> 00:36:53,664

And, you know, Socrates says, oh,

00:36:53,797 --> 00:36:56,831

the tyrant is is you

00:36:56,897 --> 00:37:01,497

727 times or 725 times less happy

00:37:01,831 --> 00:37:03,097

than the

00:37:03,397 --> 00:37:06,331

whichever one is three times five, two or

00:37:06,364 --> 00:37:07,731

three times three to the fifth power.

00:37:08,697 --> 00:37:10,131

Someone can do the math for him.

00:37:10,131 --> 00:37:10,597

Sure.

00:37:10,997 --> 00:37:14,131

But yeah, like what he's describing

00:37:14,131 --> 00:37:17,264

are degrees of separation from

00:37:19,564 --> 00:37:21,731

like true value.

00:37:23,331 --> 00:37:25,597

Because if you think about it,

00:37:25,597 --> 00:37:27,764

honor is sort of a

00:37:28,797 --> 00:37:30,897

it's a stand in for value.

00:37:31,564 --> 00:37:33,197

And money

00:37:33,564 --> 00:37:34,597

in the form of tea.

00:37:34,597 --> 00:37:39,431

May is a stand in for honor.

00:37:39,431 --> 00:37:40,497

And then

00:37:40,497 --> 00:37:41,597

you go down the way

00:37:41,597 --> 00:37:44,597

Democratic popularity is a sort of stand

00:37:44,597 --> 00:37:48,431

in for tea May and then just

00:37:48,431 --> 00:37:51,064

sensuous pleasures are

00:37:52,297 --> 00:37:53,764

below even that I don't even know

00:37:53,764 --> 00:37:55,064

if those are standard for anything.

00:37:55,064 --> 00:37:56,097

That's just

00:37:56,997 --> 00:37:57,431

yeah,

00:37:57,431 --> 00:37:59,297

he would say slavery to one's desires.

00:37:59,297 --> 00:38:00,931

Or maybe a better way of putting

00:38:00,931 --> 00:38:02,431

that is addiction,

00:38:02,431 --> 00:38:03,331

which is maybe a little bit

00:38:03,331 --> 00:38:05,931

more emotionally punchy in a day of

00:38:06,597 --> 00:38:09,664

an age of quick pornography and

00:38:09,664 --> 00:38:10,331

street drugs.

00:38:11,897 --> 00:38:17,164

Right, Right.

00:38:17,164 --> 00:38:17,964

So I think

00:38:17,964 --> 00:38:19,464

what he actually said was the most

00:38:19,464 --> 00:38:21,031

unhappy was like,

00:38:21,031 --> 00:38:22,164

there's the personality

00:38:22,164 --> 00:38:23,764

who could be a tyrant.

00:38:23,764 --> 00:38:24,797

Oh, yes. Yeah.

00:38:24,797 --> 00:38:27,797

But the most unhappy is the tyrant

00:38:27,797 --> 00:38:29,364

who actually finds the opportunity

00:38:29,364 --> 00:38:30,864

to become one.

00:38:30,864 --> 00:38:31,997

Like like you.

00:38:31,997 --> 00:38:32,697

He's actually like,

00:38:32,697 --> 00:38:33,664

because there's plenty of like,

00:38:33,664 --> 00:38:35,831

would be tyrants and petty tyrants.

00:38:35,831 --> 00:38:37,097

Yes. Yes.

00:38:37,097 --> 00:38:38,131

But the ones

00:38:38,131 --> 00:38:39,364

who are actually like, empowered

00:38:39,364 --> 00:38:41,664

to, like, do the thing

00:38:42,464 --> 00:38:43,697

are probably the most unhappy

00:38:43,697 --> 00:38:46,531

of all in the sense of a him,

00:38:46,997 --> 00:38:48,097

which makes it like

00:38:48,097 --> 00:38:48,897

they're obviously always

00:38:48,897 --> 00:38:50,497

looking over their shoulder

00:38:50,497 --> 00:38:52,931

waiting to get assassinated and living in

00:38:52,931 --> 00:38:55,997

like a state of stress

00:38:55,997 --> 00:38:56,330

know.

00:38:56,597 --> 00:38:58,097

And the depiction

00:38:58,097 --> 00:39:00,230

is that their own senses

00:39:00,230 --> 00:39:04,030

and desires are at war with each other.

00:39:04,030 --> 00:39:05,564

And you get you get a sense of this

00:39:05,564 --> 00:39:07,230

in his psych psychology

00:39:07,230 --> 00:39:08,864

izing of the Democratic men,

00:39:08,864 --> 00:39:12,430

and they're almost entertaining it of it.

00:39:12,697 --> 00:39:13,230

They're almost like,

00:39:13,230 --> 00:39:14,097

there's something charming

00:39:14,097 --> 00:39:14,730

about the man

00:39:14,730 --> 00:39:17,964

who wants to be a monk for this period

00:39:17,964 --> 00:39:18,664

and then decides

00:39:18,664 --> 00:39:19,764

to drink for a little while,

00:39:19,764 --> 00:39:20,430

but then

00:39:20,664 --> 00:39:21,297

decides to

00:39:21,297 --> 00:39:23,597

give up drinking to lose weight

00:39:23,597 --> 00:39:24,830

for for some period of time.

00:39:24,830 --> 00:39:26,930

That's like normal society.

00:39:27,797 --> 00:39:29,364

Like like I was thinking about

00:39:29,364 --> 00:39:32,030

I mean, I mean, in terms of our society,

00:39:33,597 --> 00:39:34,497

that's something I've talked

00:39:34,497 --> 00:39:34,964

about

00:39:35,130 --> 00:39:37,230

in the context of

00:39:37,230 --> 00:39:39,230

like the empire of nothing.

00:39:39,230 --> 00:39:41,397

And the thing that it's not that

00:39:41,564 --> 00:39:43,530

any of that is bad.

00:39:43,530 --> 00:39:45,864

I mean, that's almost like the

00:39:45,864 --> 00:39:46,864

they don't say

00:39:46,864 --> 00:39:47,930

they even seem

00:39:47,930 --> 00:39:50,064

to be quite charming for a time.

00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:53,064

Yeah, well, the

00:39:53,064 --> 00:39:53,964

like I've often called it

00:39:53,964 --> 00:39:55,030

the Joe Rogan syndrome

00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:56,664

because it used to be

00:39:56,730 --> 00:39:58,964

whatever dudes were into on Joe,

00:39:58,964 --> 00:40:00,630

whoever Joe Rogan had in the guests

00:40:00,630 --> 00:40:01,264

all of a sudden

00:40:01,264 --> 00:40:02,830

that like everybody was into that

00:40:02,830 --> 00:40:04,230

whatever thing,

00:40:04,230 --> 00:40:06,464

you know, like if someone had paleo,

00:40:06,464 --> 00:40:07,430

like everybody was paleo

00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:08,330

that week or whatever,

00:40:08,330 --> 00:40:09,630

like it just became like,

00:40:09,630 --> 00:40:11,264

whatever Joe was into that

00:40:11,264 --> 00:40:12,797

and had on the show, that was what

00:40:12,797 --> 00:40:14,397

all the dudes were all of a sudden, like,

00:40:14,397 --> 00:40:15,130

I need to do that.

00:40:15,130 --> 00:40:15,597

And you see that

00:40:15,597 --> 00:40:16,730

with Twitter culture

00:40:16,730 --> 00:40:17,764

where I mean, they famously said,

00:40:17,764 --> 00:40:19,397

Your balls are like

00:40:19,397 --> 00:40:20,064

all like

00:40:20,064 --> 00:40:21,064

you can just put something out there

00:40:21,064 --> 00:40:21,964

and all the guys will do it.

00:40:23,530 --> 00:40:26,364

And so you have that out there.

00:40:26,364 --> 00:40:28,264

And that's something that's happens.

00:40:28,264 --> 00:40:31,864

But also in the sense of,

00:40:31,864 --> 00:40:33,264

you know, the government

00:40:33,497 --> 00:40:34,430

putting out propaganda

00:40:34,430 --> 00:40:36,697

to influence the things that you're like,

00:40:37,797 --> 00:40:38,264

you know, like it

00:40:38,264 --> 00:40:39,730

or I mean, marketing was doing it

00:40:39,730 --> 00:40:40,464

before that.

00:40:40,464 --> 00:40:40,897

I mean, well,

00:40:40,897 --> 00:40:41,797

they've both been doing that

00:40:41,797 --> 00:40:44,397

for a long time. But,

00:40:44,430 --> 00:40:45,897

you know, these influence of

00:40:45,897 --> 00:40:48,364

external influences kind of

00:40:48,364 --> 00:40:51,097

I've described it as plankton, You're

00:40:51,097 --> 00:40:52,997

basically like floating on the wave of

00:40:52,997 --> 00:40:54,464

like whatever, like comes by.

00:40:54,464 --> 00:40:55,697

And this is where you go

00:40:55,697 --> 00:40:57,197

depending on whatever wave comes through.

00:40:57,197 --> 00:40:59,364

And so if like if everybody's like

00:40:59,364 --> 00:41:00,830

taking ice baths,

00:41:00,830 --> 00:41:02,430

it's like if there's like then,

00:41:02,430 --> 00:41:02,764

you know,

00:41:02,764 --> 00:41:03,864

the ice bath wave

00:41:03,864 --> 00:41:05,030

and everybody gets on that

00:41:05,030 --> 00:41:06,297

and that's

00:41:06,297 --> 00:41:07,230

it's very human

00:41:07,230 --> 00:41:09,564

and normal to a certain extent. Like

00:41:10,530 --> 00:41:11,330

I always

00:41:11,330 --> 00:41:12,464

question how much we

00:41:12,464 --> 00:41:13,697

need to pathologize things

00:41:13,697 --> 00:41:15,764

that are like functionally normal,

00:41:15,764 --> 00:41:16,630

like, okay,

00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:17,930

a lot of people are doing this,

00:41:17,930 --> 00:41:19,130

I guess I'll do it right now.

00:41:19,130 --> 00:41:19,497

I mean,

00:41:19,497 --> 00:41:21,630

is not that really that's not bad,

00:41:23,364 --> 00:41:25,097

but I mean, that's just normal.

00:41:25,097 --> 00:41:26,497

Like that's what people do.

00:41:26,497 --> 00:41:29,530

But at the same time, I think

00:41:30,030 --> 00:41:31,030

the important part is to have

00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:32,964

some kind of center

00:41:33,397 --> 00:41:35,197

like this is what actually

00:41:35,197 --> 00:41:36,097

I believe

00:41:36,097 --> 00:41:38,764

and to know where the boundaries are.

00:41:38,764 --> 00:41:39,397

Yeah, yeah.

00:41:39,397 --> 00:41:40,297

To have some boundaries

00:41:40,297 --> 00:41:40,997

that you're not going to cross.

00:41:40,997 --> 00:41:41,497

And I just

00:41:41,497 --> 00:41:42,430

we have talked about this

00:41:42,430 --> 00:41:43,964

A on Instagram recently and whatever.

00:41:43,964 --> 00:41:44,764

Like there's

00:41:44,764 --> 00:41:46,297

got to have some kind of like, well,

00:41:46,297 --> 00:41:47,964

who do I want to be?

00:41:47,964 --> 00:41:49,264

Because they're describing

00:41:49,264 --> 00:41:50,197

is a Democratic man

00:41:50,197 --> 00:41:52,297

really has no center or identity,

00:41:53,830 --> 00:41:54,964

which is very,

00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:56,430

very much our society right now.

00:41:56,430 --> 00:41:57,530

You don't have any set of identity.

00:41:57,530 --> 00:42:01,697

So like whatever comes by is what you do

00:42:02,130 --> 00:42:03,397

and then that's not working.

00:42:03,397 --> 00:42:04,630

I'll just do this other thing

00:42:04,630 --> 00:42:05,564

and that's not working

00:42:05,564 --> 00:42:05,964

and you don't

00:42:05,964 --> 00:42:07,530

stick with anything for a long time.

00:42:07,530 --> 00:42:07,797

I mean,

00:42:07,797 --> 00:42:09,030

I've talked about with fitness

00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:10,230

to like there's

00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:11,564

so many people who are like,

00:42:11,564 --> 00:42:13,197

they'll try their new

00:42:13,197 --> 00:42:13,897

fit thing,

00:42:13,897 --> 00:42:15,297

like all the time, I'll do this

00:42:15,297 --> 00:42:16,830

and we'll do this and like,

00:42:16,830 --> 00:42:17,897

but nothing ever changes.

00:42:17,897 --> 00:42:19,497

They always look the same.

00:42:19,497 --> 00:42:21,997

And the reason why is because, well,

00:42:22,664 --> 00:42:25,497

bro, you didn't need like the 35 friends

00:42:25,497 --> 00:42:26,430

you just tried.

00:42:26,430 --> 00:42:27,730

You needed to do one thing

00:42:27,730 --> 00:42:29,730

consistently for like six months

00:42:29,730 --> 00:42:31,597

or eight months or a year,

00:42:31,597 --> 00:42:32,864

you know, like it's

00:42:32,864 --> 00:42:33,697

it's like a fat guy

00:42:33,697 --> 00:42:35,430

trying to lose weight,

00:42:35,430 --> 00:42:38,530

but trying a different diet every three.

00:42:38,530 --> 00:42:39,030

You know, he's

00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:40,830

not actually going to lose any weight.

00:42:40,830 --> 00:42:41,497

Yeah, like it.

00:42:41,497 --> 00:42:43,330

And that's the thing is that

00:42:44,564 --> 00:42:45,564

the I guess the

00:42:45,564 --> 00:42:46,230

the criticism

00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:47,397

I think of that Democratic band

00:42:47,397 --> 00:42:48,064

that you described,

00:42:48,064 --> 00:42:48,897

which they also kind

00:42:48,897 --> 00:42:49,930

of described as colorful,

00:42:49,930 --> 00:42:51,064

which I thought it was hilarious

00:42:51,064 --> 00:42:51,997

that like,

00:42:51,997 --> 00:42:52,797

are you describing,

00:42:52,797 --> 00:42:54,664

I don't know, a rainbow society.

00:42:54,664 --> 00:42:55,530

So

00:42:57,730 --> 00:42:59,330

it's a little too

00:42:59,330 --> 00:43:01,697

on the nose for being quite that old,

00:43:01,697 --> 00:43:03,030

You know, like,

00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:06,797

oh, you mean a rainbow society?

00:43:06,797 --> 00:43:07,930

Okay.

00:43:08,164 --> 00:43:09,097

You know, it's it's kind of

00:43:09,097 --> 00:43:10,230

I thought that was kind of funny.

00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:14,230

I and I would actually say in that vein,

00:43:15,330 --> 00:43:16,230

Book eight actually

00:43:16,230 --> 00:43:18,330

probably made me laugh.

00:43:18,564 --> 00:43:20,497

I won't say full out loud laughing

00:43:20,497 --> 00:43:23,197

like maybe Nietzsche does, but like

00:43:23,197 --> 00:43:24,464

enough of like

00:43:25,030 --> 00:43:26,930

a little chuckling.

00:43:26,930 --> 00:43:28,430

Like, okay, that's that's kind of funny.

00:43:28,430 --> 00:43:29,364

I see what you're doing there.

00:43:29,364 --> 00:43:30,164

That's that's

00:43:30,164 --> 00:43:31,564

probably more than any other chapter

00:43:31,564 --> 00:43:32,730

that we've read so far, aside

00:43:32,730 --> 00:43:34,364

from my all time favorite line,

00:43:34,364 --> 00:43:35,730

which is perhaps

00:43:35,730 --> 00:43:37,430

what refused to be persuaded

00:43:38,597 --> 00:43:39,530

with somebody who is in

00:43:39,530 --> 00:43:40,830

real life all the time.

00:43:40,830 --> 00:43:44,397

But the the sort of inside references

00:43:44,397 --> 00:43:48,264

and like very sly humor throughout Plato.

00:43:48,730 --> 00:43:50,897

Yes, it would be shocking

00:43:50,897 --> 00:43:53,330

if anyone picked up on it

00:43:53,330 --> 00:43:55,197

on their first time reading through,

00:43:55,197 --> 00:43:55,964

but it's one of the things that

00:43:55,964 --> 00:43:57,897

the more times you read through it,

00:43:57,897 --> 00:43:59,664

the more you get into begin to pick up.

00:43:59,664 --> 00:44:00,230

And like

00:44:00,230 --> 00:44:00,830

I was saying it

00:44:00,830 --> 00:44:02,230

like the first talk, it's like

00:44:02,230 --> 00:44:05,364

if you're not grasping the I'm

00:44:05,364 --> 00:44:06,930

believable humor,

00:44:06,930 --> 00:44:09,864

just like layered upon itself, it's

00:44:10,197 --> 00:44:12,364

it's almost a prank of a book

00:44:12,364 --> 00:44:13,064

in many ways.

00:44:13,064 --> 00:44:13,697

But it's

00:44:13,697 --> 00:44:14,130

but but

00:44:14,130 --> 00:44:15,597

it's dealing with a serious subject

00:44:15,597 --> 00:44:16,330

at the same time.

00:44:16,330 --> 00:44:18,197

But if you aren't seeing the humor

00:44:18,197 --> 00:44:19,430

and the cleverness

00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:22,130

and the the ironic self contradictions,

00:44:23,730 --> 00:44:24,130

you're not

00:44:24,130 --> 00:44:28,297

fully you're not yet fully grasping it.

00:44:28,430 --> 00:44:30,897

You might be missing it

00:44:30,897 --> 00:44:34,197

or you haven't read it enough

00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:36,163

because, yeah,

00:44:36,163 --> 00:44:38,563

you can digest it in one time through.

00:44:38,563 --> 00:44:39,697

No, I mean, it's certainly not.

00:44:39,697 --> 00:44:40,897

I just mean in terms of like

00:44:40,897 --> 00:44:43,097

if you can't see any humor in it, like,

00:44:43,097 --> 00:44:45,597

oh, and you're reading it as a handbook

00:44:45,597 --> 00:44:46,297

and I mean, the way

00:44:46,297 --> 00:44:47,597

that people actually read it was like,

00:44:47,597 --> 00:44:49,730

this is a handbook for fascism.

00:44:49,730 --> 00:44:51,630

And that's like,

00:44:51,630 --> 00:44:52,497

if you're reading like that,

00:44:52,497 --> 00:44:54,597

you might be me.

00:44:54,597 --> 00:44:55,530

Like that's

00:44:55,530 --> 00:44:56,497

yeah, that's not

00:44:56,497 --> 00:44:57,597

that's not

00:44:57,863 --> 00:45:00,263

the or maybe just autistic or something.

00:45:00,263 --> 00:45:01,063

Like you're not interested

00:45:01,063 --> 00:45:02,163

in these jokes.

00:45:02,163 --> 00:45:03,930

Like you're missing jokes.

00:45:03,930 --> 00:45:05,230

It's a weird thing

00:45:05,230 --> 00:45:05,963

and humor

00:45:05,963 --> 00:45:08,863

and just funny things about human nature

00:45:09,230 --> 00:45:09,930

that are throughout it.

00:45:09,930 --> 00:45:10,830

Yeah, Yeah.

00:45:10,830 --> 00:45:12,963

Including the return of female nature and

00:45:13,163 --> 00:45:14,097

in book.

00:45:15,430 --> 00:45:17,897

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:17,930 --> 00:45:20,130

But yeah, so the,

00:45:20,130 --> 00:45:24,030

the, the, the view of the, the,

00:45:24,397 --> 00:45:27,830

the forms as not as metaphysical truth,

00:45:28,130 --> 00:45:30,330

but as truth in value

00:45:30,330 --> 00:45:33,330

that is perceived by

00:45:33,330 --> 00:45:36,297

pursuit of discrete things

00:45:36,297 --> 00:45:38,197

which actually is pursued

00:45:38,197 --> 00:45:42,297

by essentially minding your own business

00:45:42,663 --> 00:45:43,363

and by

00:45:43,363 --> 00:45:44,530

doing your own job

00:45:44,530 --> 00:45:45,863

and maybe not being

00:45:45,863 --> 00:45:50,730

so concerned with the task of a city

00:45:50,730 --> 00:45:55,230

that is going to be corrupted anyways.

00:45:55,230 --> 00:45:58,363

It it, it opens a path

00:45:58,363 --> 00:46:00,563

to the experience

00:46:00,563 --> 00:46:02,463

of the good stuff in life.

00:46:02,463 --> 00:46:04,997

It reminds me of one of my favorite

00:46:04,997 --> 00:46:06,997

philosophical lines in the novel.

00:46:07,263 --> 00:46:09,663

There's I probably brought it up already,

00:46:09,663 --> 00:46:10,263

I don't remember.

00:46:10,263 --> 00:46:11,530

But there's this

00:46:11,530 --> 00:46:13,030

book by Robert Pearson called Zen

00:46:13,030 --> 00:46:14,397

and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance,

00:46:14,397 --> 00:46:16,697

and he has this line where he says,

00:46:17,397 --> 00:46:19,397

some people want to fix the world

00:46:20,130 --> 00:46:20,930

through,

00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:21,663

you know,

00:46:21,663 --> 00:46:23,263

through policy and politics

00:46:23,263 --> 00:46:24,763

and cultural changes.

00:46:24,763 --> 00:46:26,130

They want to fix the world over

00:46:26,130 --> 00:46:27,530

and save the world.

00:46:27,630 --> 00:46:30,330

I just want to fix this motorcycle,

00:46:31,763 --> 00:46:33,863

you know, we'll see

00:46:33,863 --> 00:46:36,863

who does the world better

00:46:37,730 --> 00:46:38,563

between the people

00:46:38,563 --> 00:46:39,497

who want to fix the world

00:46:39,497 --> 00:46:39,930

and the people

00:46:39,930 --> 00:46:42,697

who want to fix the motorcycle.

00:46:42,697 --> 00:46:45,030

I think overall, on the whole,

00:46:45,030 --> 00:46:46,730

the people who fix the motorcycles

00:46:46,730 --> 00:46:47,763

make the world much better

00:46:47,763 --> 00:46:50,163

than the people who try to fix the world.

00:46:50,163 --> 00:46:52,297

And it feels like we're getting

00:46:54,063 --> 00:46:56,163

a taste of that here.

00:46:56,163 --> 00:46:56,630

Because

00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:58,863

because one of the one of the themes

00:46:59,963 --> 00:47:01,997

not not not so much

00:47:01,997 --> 00:47:02,730

in the republic,

00:47:02,730 --> 00:47:05,197

but in other conversations about politics

00:47:05,197 --> 00:47:09,563

and power is power is treated as this.

00:47:09,563 --> 00:47:10,097

Actually, no,

00:47:10,097 --> 00:47:12,663

it was brought up in book two.

00:47:13,297 --> 00:47:17,963

Power can be thought of as a kind of a

00:47:19,230 --> 00:47:21,497

an appetite that can never be filled

00:47:23,197 --> 00:47:25,397

and an almost sexual thing.

00:47:25,897 --> 00:47:28,197

This this kind of lust for power

00:47:29,063 --> 00:47:32,197

that is corrupting and which is

00:47:32,763 --> 00:47:34,330

The Lord of the Rings here as well.

00:47:35,730 --> 00:47:37,597

And this is this is sort of where

00:47:37,597 --> 00:47:38,463

where guys,

00:47:38,463 --> 00:47:39,530

one of the first things he does

00:47:39,530 --> 00:47:40,830

when he gets the ring

00:47:40,830 --> 00:47:42,730

that gives him power is

00:47:42,730 --> 00:47:43,863

he has sex with the queen

00:47:43,863 --> 00:47:45,630

and he can take whoever he wants.

00:47:45,630 --> 00:47:49,030

But it's a it's a sort of metaphorical

00:47:50,130 --> 00:47:52,263

distortion of perception of the good.

00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:54,563

And so basically,

00:47:54,563 --> 00:47:58,030

the whole point of Socrates argument is,

00:47:58,530 --> 00:48:01,363

how can you really be happy

00:48:01,730 --> 00:48:03,163

if you don't even understand

00:48:03,163 --> 00:48:05,397

what is good in the world

00:48:05,597 --> 00:48:08,763

right.

00:48:08,763 --> 00:48:11,263

A few thoughts that I had about

00:48:11,263 --> 00:48:12,663

like the philosopher king

00:48:12,663 --> 00:48:16,530

and that society, whatever, and

00:48:16,530 --> 00:48:18,930

it it struck me that they were,

00:48:20,030 --> 00:48:21,630

I thought the variation of it

00:48:21,630 --> 00:48:24,263

as as being a like

00:48:25,297 --> 00:48:26,730

they didn't have enough music

00:48:26,730 --> 00:48:28,830

and argument at the same time.

00:48:28,830 --> 00:48:29,763

I thought it was

00:48:29,763 --> 00:48:31,097

I thought that was clever.

00:48:31,097 --> 00:48:32,297

I like, what is that?

00:48:32,297 --> 00:48:32,997

Like we

00:48:32,997 --> 00:48:34,397

don't we really need to fix things

00:48:34,397 --> 00:48:36,730

music and argument at the same time.

00:48:36,730 --> 00:48:38,897

But gymnastics.

00:48:38,897 --> 00:48:41,330

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in the

00:48:42,363 --> 00:48:43,063

it seems as

00:48:43,063 --> 00:48:45,130

though the problem with philosophers

00:48:46,263 --> 00:48:49,063

generally speaking is that

00:48:49,063 --> 00:48:53,297

they would be terribly indecisive rulers.

00:48:53,297 --> 00:48:54,030

I mean

00:48:54,197 --> 00:48:55,663

people who are philosophically inclined,

00:48:55,663 --> 00:48:57,163

I consider myself one of them,

00:48:57,163 --> 00:48:57,730

not in

00:48:57,730 --> 00:48:59,630

not the mathematical way that you are,

00:48:59,630 --> 00:49:02,430

but like in the some I don't know.

00:49:02,430 --> 00:49:03,830

There are many ends here.

00:49:03,830 --> 00:49:06,363

Like even a wizard can't see your hands.

00:49:06,363 --> 00:49:08,863

You're like, I like I'm very like him.

00:49:09,197 --> 00:49:11,163

There's there's a lot more going on here

00:49:11,163 --> 00:49:12,430

than just this simple thing.

00:49:12,430 --> 00:49:14,297

But sometimes the

00:49:14,297 --> 00:49:15,030

people who are really good

00:49:15,030 --> 00:49:15,997

at business are really good

00:49:15,997 --> 00:49:17,330

at just debating like we're going with.

00:49:17,330 --> 00:49:18,663

This is what we're doing, Let's go.

00:49:18,663 --> 00:49:19,230

Yeah,

00:49:19,563 --> 00:49:21,030

I think they move fast,

00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:22,397

you know, like that's that's

00:49:22,397 --> 00:49:23,063

people who are good at that.

00:49:23,063 --> 00:49:24,197

And so like,

00:49:24,197 --> 00:49:26,297

good rulers are like that too.

00:49:26,297 --> 00:49:26,763

Pertaining

00:49:26,763 --> 00:49:28,030

to conflicts

00:49:28,030 --> 00:49:28,830

from a couple of years

00:49:28,830 --> 00:49:32,730

ago, Douglas Murray was talking

00:49:32,730 --> 00:49:34,863

about the problem with combining

00:49:35,497 --> 00:49:37,997

governance with, for instance, science,

00:49:38,363 --> 00:49:40,597

which was once a subbranch of philosophy,

00:49:40,597 --> 00:49:42,930

is that science derives its legitimacy

00:49:43,230 --> 00:49:44,430

from an openness,

00:49:44,430 --> 00:49:46,563

a willingness to change its mind

00:49:46,563 --> 00:49:47,830

and to follow the evidence

00:49:47,830 --> 00:49:49,163

and to even say, Oh, that thing

00:49:49,163 --> 00:49:50,797

we thought yesterday, it's totally wrong.

00:49:50,797 --> 00:49:53,597

Turns out, and in decisiveness

00:49:54,163 --> 00:49:56,330

in a in a final sense

00:49:56,697 --> 00:49:57,197

is actually

00:49:57,197 --> 00:49:58,697

a source of its integrity

00:49:58,697 --> 00:50:00,496

to its own ideals.

00:50:00,496 --> 00:50:03,163

Whereas in governance you need finality

00:50:03,563 --> 00:50:05,330

or you can't have objectivity

00:50:05,330 --> 00:50:06,796

in arbitrating disputes.

00:50:06,796 --> 00:50:09,030

You have to have a single rule

00:50:09,363 --> 00:50:10,263

in order for there

00:50:10,263 --> 00:50:12,496

to be any stability in your society.

00:50:12,496 --> 00:50:14,630

And so if you combine science

00:50:14,963 --> 00:50:16,963

with the governance of the state,

00:50:17,796 --> 00:50:20,163

you kind of get the worst of both worlds.

00:50:20,163 --> 00:50:22,630

You get the indecision of science

00:50:23,330 --> 00:50:25,830

destroying the

00:50:25,830 --> 00:50:27,563

the sort of finality of governance

00:50:27,563 --> 00:50:29,596

that that's required for stability

00:50:29,596 --> 00:50:31,730

and for a feeling of justice

00:50:31,730 --> 00:50:35,130

in the society and the decisiveness

00:50:35,463 --> 00:50:36,996

of the governance,

00:50:36,996 --> 00:50:38,730

which we might have some experience with.

00:50:38,730 --> 00:50:43,430

Now forces a sort of obtuse

00:50:45,696 --> 00:50:46,430

what's

00:50:46,896 --> 00:50:49,496

what, like a close witness

00:50:49,496 --> 00:50:50,163

to new ideas

00:50:50,163 --> 00:50:51,496

within science which destroys

00:50:51,496 --> 00:50:53,363

legitimacy of science.

00:50:53,363 --> 00:50:54,930

Maybe they just don't play well together.

00:50:54,930 --> 00:50:56,230

And I think that's true

00:50:56,230 --> 00:50:58,230

with philosophy and politics.

00:50:58,230 --> 00:50:58,830

I don't

00:50:58,963 --> 00:51:00,563

see how you could

00:51:00,563 --> 00:51:03,063

call yourself a philosopher

00:51:03,063 --> 00:51:07,096

while making final pronouncements

00:51:07,096 --> 00:51:08,763

in that way,

00:51:09,496 --> 00:51:10,596

and vice versa.

00:51:10,596 --> 00:51:12,063

How are you going to be a governor

00:51:12,063 --> 00:51:13,296

of any society

00:51:13,296 --> 00:51:15,596

that's going to last and work

00:51:15,596 --> 00:51:17,230

if you're going to be always open

00:51:17,230 --> 00:51:18,030

to new ideas

00:51:18,030 --> 00:51:19,363

and entertaining new things

00:51:19,363 --> 00:51:21,496

and trying new things and stuff?

00:51:21,496 --> 00:51:23,496

Just Yeah, Yeah.

00:51:23,496 --> 00:51:26,463

Well, that's I think the criticism that

00:51:26,463 --> 00:51:28,696

book levels that Democracy

00:51:29,796 --> 00:51:32,763

and the Solid Society of Equality,

00:51:32,763 --> 00:51:35,430

the Rainbow Society use, that

00:51:37,030 --> 00:51:39,663

there's an inability to say no

00:51:40,530 --> 00:51:41,430

to anything.

00:51:41,430 --> 00:51:42,963

And that is one of the main criticisms

00:51:42,963 --> 00:51:44,263

that, like you know,

00:51:44,263 --> 00:51:47,163

the right or whatever has had about

00:51:47,696 --> 00:51:48,230

our society

00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:50,630

now it's like there's no ability to say

00:51:50,630 --> 00:51:51,196

too far.

00:51:52,263 --> 00:51:53,096

Like, I

00:51:53,096 --> 00:51:54,063

mean, we're seeing a

00:51:54,063 --> 00:51:56,163

little bit of it right now, finally.

00:51:56,163 --> 00:51:57,363

But there was a long time

00:51:57,363 --> 00:51:58,730

where people were going like, not

00:51:58,730 --> 00:51:59,930

there were no boundaries.

00:51:59,930 --> 00:52:02,296

There were like there was no too far.

00:52:02,296 --> 00:52:03,896

And people would just keep going.

00:52:03,896 --> 00:52:05,163

Okay, well, that's okay too.

00:52:05,163 --> 00:52:05,996

Well, that's okay too.

00:52:05,996 --> 00:52:07,863

Well, that's okay. That's okay. Yeah.

00:52:07,863 --> 00:52:09,163

And then they started messing

00:52:09,163 --> 00:52:09,696

with the kids.

00:52:09,696 --> 00:52:10,263

And I think that

00:52:10,263 --> 00:52:11,630

people got a little bit weird,

00:52:11,630 --> 00:52:13,463

like, okay, well, hold on.

00:52:13,463 --> 00:52:14,430

That's too far.

00:52:14,430 --> 00:52:15,763

But for everything else,

00:52:15,763 --> 00:52:17,163

people were like, Well, no,

00:52:17,163 --> 00:52:19,463

they couldn't really say

00:52:19,463 --> 00:52:20,896

that nothing was too far.

00:52:20,896 --> 00:52:22,630

And so if you don't have those boundaries

00:52:22,630 --> 00:52:24,963

where you at some point you say no.

00:52:24,963 --> 00:52:27,163

And I think that you can

00:52:27,163 --> 00:52:29,196

have a fairly liberal mindset

00:52:29,196 --> 00:52:30,263

within your society.

00:52:30,263 --> 00:52:31,563

You're not liberal in the dumb

00:52:31,563 --> 00:52:32,630

fucking CNN way,

00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:33,563

but like

00:52:33,563 --> 00:52:34,663

liberal in the general,

00:52:34,663 --> 00:52:37,463

like more philosophical way of like this.

00:52:37,496 --> 00:52:38,963

Not all these things are necessarily

00:52:38,963 --> 00:52:41,396

hard stops, you know, like that.

00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:42,396

That's like I say,

00:52:42,396 --> 00:52:44,563

best practices over like hard rules.

00:52:44,563 --> 00:52:46,730

But you have to have some hard rules,

00:52:47,130 --> 00:52:48,663

like you have to have some like

00:52:48,663 --> 00:52:50,330

because otherwise

00:52:50,330 --> 00:52:51,596

in the way that like,

00:52:51,596 --> 00:52:53,730

like the first men like we

00:52:53,730 --> 00:52:55,130

we don't have Christians in the first men

00:52:55,130 --> 00:52:56,430

or any or Muslims

00:52:56,430 --> 00:52:57,863

or any other people because

00:52:58,930 --> 00:53:00,996

it would make it something else,

00:53:00,996 --> 00:53:02,496

you know, like you have to have

00:53:02,496 --> 00:53:03,763

if something is everything,

00:53:03,763 --> 00:53:04,630

then it's nothing.

00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:05,696

It has no definitions.

00:53:05,696 --> 00:53:06,963

And and that's

00:53:06,963 --> 00:53:08,096

you need that for a society.

00:53:08,096 --> 00:53:10,496

You need that as a man too.

00:53:10,496 --> 00:53:11,796

You have to have some like,

00:53:11,796 --> 00:53:12,796

what are you about?

00:53:12,796 --> 00:53:13,796

What are your boundaries?

00:53:13,796 --> 00:53:15,296

If there are none,

00:53:15,296 --> 00:53:16,463

you're not about anything

00:53:16,463 --> 00:53:18,463

and you're like a democratic man.

00:53:18,463 --> 00:53:19,596

You basically like your

00:53:19,596 --> 00:53:22,163

whatever comes along is I'm going to do,

00:53:22,363 --> 00:53:23,596

you know. And yeah.

00:53:23,596 --> 00:53:24,963

And that's no,

00:53:24,963 --> 00:53:26,896

no way to really be I don't know.

00:53:26,896 --> 00:53:27,196

I don't know

00:53:27,196 --> 00:53:30,263

how that influences happiness.

00:53:30,263 --> 00:53:32,463

Happiness is this weird thing

00:53:32,463 --> 00:53:34,096

or, you know, like satisfaction

00:53:34,096 --> 00:53:35,730

in life or whatever.

00:53:35,730 --> 00:53:38,796

But I mean, I think that,

00:53:38,796 --> 00:53:39,930

like, I made a real about this,

00:53:39,930 --> 00:53:41,630

which is to sentimentalism, I to post it.

00:53:41,630 --> 00:53:43,330

But I like

00:53:43,330 --> 00:53:45,663

I've always like senator a song my way

00:53:46,796 --> 00:53:47,596

because you have this guy who

00:53:47,596 --> 00:53:49,263

gets to his end of his life

00:53:49,263 --> 00:53:50,830

and he's looking back

00:53:50,830 --> 00:53:51,663

and he's like, well,

00:53:51,663 --> 00:53:53,730

you know, I did the best that I could

00:53:53,730 --> 00:53:56,163

and I did the best that I could,

00:53:56,663 --> 00:53:57,263

and I did it

00:53:57,263 --> 00:53:58,263

the way that I wanted to do it.

00:53:58,263 --> 00:53:59,196

And it didn't always work out

00:53:59,196 --> 00:54:00,063

the way I wanted to.

00:54:00,063 --> 00:54:01,396

But like I did

00:54:01,396 --> 00:54:02,696

what I wanted to do,

00:54:02,696 --> 00:54:03,030

the way

00:54:03,030 --> 00:54:03,963

that I wanted to do it

00:54:03,963 --> 00:54:06,296

to the best of my ability at that time.

00:54:06,296 --> 00:54:06,663

Yeah.

00:54:06,663 --> 00:54:08,930

And I don't think there's

00:54:08,930 --> 00:54:09,530

anything better

00:54:09,530 --> 00:54:11,496

that you can say about your life.

00:54:11,496 --> 00:54:12,463

Like really,

00:54:12,463 --> 00:54:13,663

by the time you get to the afterlife,

00:54:13,663 --> 00:54:15,063

you're like, Well,

00:54:15,063 --> 00:54:15,430

you know,

00:54:15,430 --> 00:54:16,630

not everything went quite

00:54:16,630 --> 00:54:18,063

the way I planned,

00:54:18,063 --> 00:54:20,163

but like, I said,

00:54:20,163 --> 00:54:20,963

I tried really hard

00:54:20,963 --> 00:54:21,830

and I did the best I could do.

00:54:21,830 --> 00:54:22,563

And I like

00:54:22,563 --> 00:54:23,430

I made

00:54:23,496 --> 00:54:24,763

choices that I'm comfortable

00:54:24,763 --> 00:54:26,763

with most of the time,

00:54:26,763 --> 00:54:27,763

you know, like, yeah,

00:54:27,763 --> 00:54:29,130

that's that's what you want to

00:54:29,130 --> 00:54:30,363

that's what you want to be able to say.

00:54:31,363 --> 00:54:34,096

Well, I think there's a way

00:54:34,096 --> 00:54:37,196

that Socrates or Plato, rather, is,

00:54:37,196 --> 00:54:40,496

is actually essentially arguing for that.

00:54:40,963 --> 00:54:43,663

The royalist, the king, the philosopher

00:54:43,663 --> 00:54:46,263

king is the decision maker

00:54:46,863 --> 00:54:49,196

who is autonomous over himself

00:54:49,196 --> 00:54:51,996

and every stage down is a

00:54:52,263 --> 00:54:56,130

is another layer of slavery to something

00:54:56,296 --> 00:54:57,630

that is other than what

00:54:57,630 --> 00:54:59,696

you necessarily believe is best.

00:55:00,263 --> 00:55:04,463

So, Tim, the typical man is by degree

00:55:05,296 --> 00:55:09,030

slightly bound to conventional notions

00:55:09,030 --> 00:55:11,130

of honor in his society.

00:55:11,130 --> 00:55:13,630

And maybe the philosophical

00:55:13,630 --> 00:55:16,130

man will choose for some form of honor,

00:55:16,730 --> 00:55:19,296

but that might run afoul of some

00:55:19,296 --> 00:55:22,130

other people's notion of honor,

00:55:22,330 --> 00:55:23,363

you know, So.

00:55:23,363 --> 00:55:24,963

So but then

00:55:24,963 --> 00:55:27,430

there's still something honorable there,

00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:28,263

literally.

00:55:28,263 --> 00:55:29,396

But below that,

00:55:29,396 --> 00:55:32,363

there's there's money and necessity and

00:55:32,596 --> 00:55:35,029

and money beyond

00:55:35,529 --> 00:55:37,563

necessity and the law of necessity

00:55:37,563 --> 00:55:39,229

that we keep hearing

00:55:40,263 --> 00:55:41,429

brought up

00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:42,529

all the way back

00:55:42,529 --> 00:55:44,529

to the society of necessity,

00:55:44,529 --> 00:55:46,563

the book, to the first city,

00:55:46,563 --> 00:55:47,496

and then below

00:55:47,496 --> 00:55:48,529

that is the

00:55:48,529 --> 00:55:50,063

opinion of the public,

00:55:50,063 --> 00:55:52,529

which is sort of the democratic world.

00:55:52,529 --> 00:55:54,696

And then finally, the tyrant

00:55:55,696 --> 00:55:56,763

is essentially a hunter.

00:55:56,763 --> 00:55:59,129

Biden just completely enslaved

00:55:59,496 --> 00:56:01,963

to his his own whims.

00:56:02,263 --> 00:56:05,029

And if you've ever met someone

00:56:05,029 --> 00:56:07,163

who is a serious addict, like

00:56:08,163 --> 00:56:10,396

they do what they

00:56:10,396 --> 00:56:14,429

what they want in the in the pale,

00:56:14,429 --> 00:56:17,429

a ghostly sense of want,

00:56:17,429 --> 00:56:19,429

like someone who is picking up,

00:56:19,429 --> 00:56:20,996

who is who is selling,

00:56:20,996 --> 00:56:23,729

who's like stealing catalytic converter

00:56:23,729 --> 00:56:24,963

so that they can buy more

00:56:24,963 --> 00:56:26,463

black tar heroin.

00:56:26,463 --> 00:56:27,063

We asked them,

00:56:27,063 --> 00:56:28,996

Are you living the life you want to live?

00:56:28,996 --> 00:56:31,463

They're not going to say yes.

00:56:31,463 --> 00:56:33,529

You know, they're doing

00:56:33,929 --> 00:56:34,963

what their body

00:56:34,963 --> 00:56:37,429

is essentially forcing them to do.

00:56:37,429 --> 00:56:38,763

Yes, compulsion

00:56:38,763 --> 00:56:39,896

is the best way to describe it.

00:56:39,896 --> 00:56:41,163

Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:41,163 --> 00:56:42,696

And I think I think

00:56:42,696 --> 00:56:45,296

what the psychology of the tyrant is

00:56:45,296 --> 00:56:47,629

describing is this is is the

00:56:48,329 --> 00:56:49,529

is the man

00:56:49,529 --> 00:56:51,129

who is completely controlled

00:56:51,129 --> 00:56:53,396

by his impulses in that way.

00:56:54,696 --> 00:56:56,529

And so what you get

00:56:56,529 --> 00:57:00,329

in the man who is like the just society

00:57:00,963 --> 00:57:04,029

is a man who is in harmony with himself

00:57:04,529 --> 00:57:06,529

and who is there is this debate.

00:57:06,529 --> 00:57:07,896

I was going back over

00:57:07,896 --> 00:57:09,863

listening to Dan Dennett

00:57:09,863 --> 00:57:12,063

defending his concept of free will,

00:57:12,063 --> 00:57:12,963

and he says

00:57:12,963 --> 00:57:14,929

the libertarian notion of free will,

00:57:14,929 --> 00:57:16,029

which is the ability to do

00:57:16,029 --> 00:57:18,996

otherwise, was always an illusion.

00:57:18,996 --> 00:57:20,863

That was never the point.