E05 -

[00:00:00] Hamish: welcome back everybody to another episode of the Mindful Builder Podcast. This is quite an intimate one today. It's just got myself and Maddy just having a bit of a chin wag. How are you, Maddy?

[00:00:13] Matt: Good mate, how are you?

[00:00:15] Hamish: I'm not too bad, mate. I'm actually pretty good, which is it's actually a really positive thing to say because as we're going to dive deep in on this episode that I've had some struggles this year.

[00:00:27] Matt: Yeah, So today's episode might be a little bit confronting for some, but I feel it's an important one that needs to be told. Hamish is not only a builder, he's a dad, a husband, a son, and a friend, but he's also a storyteller who constantly advocates about the importance of mental health. He's part of the reason we started this podcast and Hamish is open about his struggles with anxiety and does not hide it.

I'm probably speaking on behalf of him, but in fact, he's probably proud of it. Today's episode is not an interview, it's a conversation that seeks to destigmatize, inspire and offer a compassionate perspective on mental health. Hamish it's probably fair to say that parts of the last few months have been a bit of a rollercoaster.

Can you start by just sort of sharing what's been happening?

[00:01:04] Hamish: Yep. Firstly, G'day everybody. My name is Hamish and I have an anxiety disorder. And I think pride may not be something that has always been how I would describe my feeling towards it. I think it's sort of wrapped up with a bit of shame as well and probably that you know, that feeling of not being in control because anxiety for those who have it is, it can take over your life, when you kind of least expect it.

For me this year. I think as a builder there's been challenges and generally challenges that I, I guess, relish in or kind of inspire me or motivate me but I did realize this year that I kind of felt my limit and then that kind of self talk and that self doubt and those anxious feelings really started to creep in, I'd say around the middle of the year.

And if I'm being honest, it's probably the worst that I've ever felt. And yeah, I was struggling really badly.

[00:02:11] Matt: So what, was there a stress, a trigger, or like what was the sort of challenging time that created this sort of self doubt and anxiety? Um, Uh,

[00:02:22] Hamish: years, I guess when I first got diagnosed with a anxiety disorder would have been probably knocking on the door about 10 years ago. I was in a business partnership, which which ended and then I think, in, in, in hindsight. Everything happens for a reason.

I'm glad it did. But at the time, it was incredibly stressful. And it was at that point that I actually started saying a psychologist. In fact, it's the same psychologist that I see today. So that's been guess a staple in my management over the last 10 years is to see my psychologist. albeit up until about two or three months ago, I hadn't been seeing her regularly, um, which I think was a big part of me, I guess, losing control of my coping mechanisms, But like one of the biggest triggers for me is financial. So whenever I kind of see, my bank account getting lower or feel like I've got a job that's going bad or anything like that, it does cause me anxiety. And maybe I'm in the wrong business if I don't want to see my bank account go from shit loads of money to nothing in a matter of a couple of days.

maybe I'm in the wrong business to not, not expect that because that's just the reality of a building company. But yeah, for me this year and I fully appreciate these are first world problems and, potentially is a well with me story, but we bought a new property this year in Warrandyte.

It was basically the perfect property for us as a family and also provided an opportunity for me to set up part of it, to run sanctum homes out of and have like a bit of a HQ for everyone to come to. it all happened incredibly quickly. It happened towards the end of June. which meant that we had to fast track our financials to see where everything was sitting.

I remember we looked at it on a Saturday and fast forward eight days, the property was ours. It required a significant amount of money to put down as a deposit, which basically was, you know, everything that we had worked towards putting aside. As a little bit of a safety blanket and I really underestimated how much I kind of leaned in on or use that as a pillow to put my head on at nighttime when I went to sleep, knowing that I actually had some funds to draw on and all of a sudden that wasn't there.

I had 5 projects underway at the time all at different stages, all probably in between progress claims as well. And all the builders out there listening knows what it's like when you get caught in between progress claims where you've got to complete a certain amount of work on site to then get that next payment. it was just really tricky and then on top of that We had to then finish our current home to get it to a point where we could put it on the market. So we had five weeks to do that. And then we were also working. We had a deadline to hit before we went away on a holiday, which we had already we already had that organized to go and visit my sister in Elm Springs.

So there was just a lot going on. So not only were we managing five projects, not only did I have two kids, a young family give my time, my wife time to go and do her work and, give her her free time. All the stuff that we're doing with Sustainable Builders Alliance, we were going through relaunch there was just lots and lots of things going on and I got to the point where I realized very, very quickly that I couldn't manage it myself.

All the tools that I had at my disposal weren't working in terms of managing my anxiety and headspace where. couldn't see the positives in front of me and I couldn't see the solution to the problems in front of me. And it actually took a, quite a heated conversation with my wife and we never fight.

And I remember, there was some words that were said that just snapped me out of the cloud that I was in and made me realize that the way that I was projecting myself to the world was having a really severe impact on the people around me. Not only to my wife, but also my kids and even my employees, particularly Dan, who works in pre construction.

I just wasn't my best self. And it was at that point that I booked in to see my psychologist again. And the actual process of Going through and making the decision to call Lisa again and booking in to talk to her was almost as if this , calm washed over me knowing that I'd actually reached out and was going to get some help because I realized at that particular point in time that I, did not have the tools to help myself through this.

And I reckon I was definitely on the brink of not only having severe anxiety, but I was also at the point of becoming quite depressed. So,

[00:07:18] Matt: who's actually, at the start I think you said 10 years, you've got some pretty good tools up your sleeve to deal with it. So how did you recognize it? , was it just that fight with your wife or were there other things that sort of to sort of recognize that this is a tough period?

[00:07:31] Hamish: how my brain works. And then it might sort of give it a bit more context. Off the back, a lot of this, I've done a whole bunch of screening tests for ADHD before. And, I kind of have always been operating, suspecting that I might have ADHD.

It's always been undiagnosed, so it's not really something that I wanted to label myself with, but like classic traits of it being an incredible superpower, or it being incredibly debilitating. So at any one time I can have a number of things going through my brain, I can have a number of different projects going on at any one time, and if they excite me, I have absolute hyperfocus, and I will take an idea all the way to the end.

Now, when I'm in a really positive mindset, that's awesome, but when I'm in a negative mindset, I will latch on to three or four different negative things, , and I will take them on that same journey. So it actually was also, start of my process of being officially diagnosed with ADHD. And that is an ongoing thing at the moment.

You know, I don't want to sort of self diagnose myself yet, but come next Friday, it'll be something that I'll know or not know. But I do think that ADHD and. anxiety for me kind of feed into each other, whether or not one is feeding one or one is feeding the other. I don't know how they're kind of stacked on top of each other, but I definitely feel for me they're related.

And when I'm good, I'm really good. And , when I'm not good, I'm, I'm not great. So yeah, it , just me attaching onto a thought of, oh shit, I've got no money, or shit, my job's not going well. I will take that thought process and I will run away with it all the way to the end. And even if I'm creating its own narrative, something that's maybe not true I will take myself down there and I'll convince myself on that.

[00:09:21] Matt: , I'm sitting here just inspired at the moment to be so open. I think it's so, so amazing that you can just be open about these conversations, which, people need to be, activities or sort of routines, like, obviously you've got your support system with your wife and that conversation would have been like.

That's why you got married. That's the support, those honest conversations that you need. I'm assuming that you've got an amazing support system around you. You've got away from work, you've got your friends, your family. How did you sort of start to cut through all this and go, Hey, like, I need to cope with this.

What can I do to cope? Like, for some people it might be exercise. Some people it might be just, Hey, I need a few days off work. Being a business owner, just dropping work, it's not the easiest thing to do at times. Like, what did you do to cope?

[00:10:04] Hamish: So, I'm going to answer this probably in a random way, and I can only speak from my own personal experience with it. And it is, that is, it's my own, I own this experience, it's no one else's, it's mine, I can only talk to what helps me. Talking to people is massive for me, like talking the problem out is massive, and my poor wife gets a lot of it and we've talked about this a lot that sometimes when I'm in these spaces or I'm in my head and it's consuming me, actually take on a part of that anxiety and a part of that depression and a part of that uncertainty. not fair on her because she might be in a great place, but she's kind of feeding off my energy, so I've realized that even though she's always there to support me 100%, I, I know that I can't lump everything on her, so Mate, I've got you, I've got Mark, I've got So many other people that I talk to on a daily basis and I'm really, really candid about how I'm feeling and I feel one of my personality traits and, you know, if you do want to kind of latch on to that sort of ADHD personality, I have a huge amount of empathy for a lot of people.

And I actually want to help people. So I will wear my heart on my sleeve. And when someone's hurting, I want them to stop hurting. And I, and I will offer myself up to talk that through with them. And during my really challenging time, that was actually thrown right back at me. And, you know, I'm going to be, incredible grateful to.

Mark, who yeah, he was a big part of, helping me get through, tougher periods that I've gone through this year. So thanks Mark. Another big thing for me is uh, exercise.

or ever done a workout I find that chemical balance within my body is, is leveled out. And I don't feel like I need to go and do so much if I've kind of scratched that itch. I just kind of feel that it calms me down.

I've got a bunch of mates coming over today at about one o'clock and we're going to do a workout. So I find that that is a huge part of my management. And it's, for me, it's not just one thing. A good friend of mine who's a psychologist talks about finding out what your recipe is because everybody's recipe is different.

For Maddy, you, it might be sitting down and crocheting a beanie. And it might be sitting down and having a glass of wine in front of a fire and petting your cat. For me, it's actually exercising and giving myself space and time. So I can, I like to problem solve and I find that when I've got something that I'm trying to work through in my brain heading out on my bike for a couple of hours is a way that I can do something and get these feelings, these anxious feelings out so that it allows me to then find the space to work on that problem.

But if I'm not doing that and I'm just trying to work on the problem, the anxious feelings kind of take over and I can't concentrate on. So actually doing something simultaneously to solving the problem really, really, I find really helps me and my personality.

[00:13:16] Matt: so obviously you're very open about this not only through social media, friends, family, but there's a first time, there was that first time that you once had to open up.

Do you remember that time? And , do you sort of look back on that from where you've come? And you've got to be super proud of that moment you first said to someone, Hey, I need help.

[00:13:31] Hamish: know, now that I know what anxiety looks like. I think the first time that I realized it or my earliest memory is probably when I went from year six into year seven in high school.

they're pretty tough years for everybody, you know, high school is a big thing. And then you're in a school with a whole bunch of other people who just look absolutely enormous when you're in year seven. And, you know, I was a chubby kid I did get bullied a bit when I was at school, in primary school.

And there was a point in year seven. I remember I actually went to a psychologist because I was struggling, but it's only for a couple of sessions. And at the time, I actually, there wasn't a label attached to it, and it certainly wasn't a cognitive thing that I did. I think it was more my parents that sort of said that we should go. But fast forward to 2013, can remember it distinctly. It was like the day after my wedding. don't want to talk too candidly about it, but there was an event to do with, the dissolving of my business with my business partner that happened, which then just consumed my mind for 5 days after the day that I got married.

my wife still talks to me about those four or five days where I just wasn't present. , my mind was just consumed with trying to solve this problem that I didn't have the space for her, and that particular moment in time, when it should have just been all about us. And, yeah, I think off the back of that was when, I kind of realized that I needed some help to try and work through what I was going through at the time. And yeah, that was the start of my journey with understanding anxiety and the tools that I've been using for the last 10 or 15 years. I haven't been medicated. Like I'm nothing against people that take medication. I definitely feel like that has a place. And everyone's journey is different, but for me, I did a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy.

And I still do that today. Yeah, that was the moment. It was, after we got married.

[00:15:34] Matt: and I think that's probably for people who might have these issues or not, or don't know that haven't that, that first time, would you say it's fair to say is the toughest time? Hey, I need help. Like that's, that's, once you get that part, it actually becomes a bit easier or is it this sort of, and

then you start to oh, it was so, it was so hard. And if I think about like, how mental health is perceived these days and how I thought about it back then, I mean, I was early 30s in the construction industry 10 years ago. I was fucking invincible, right? Like, we're still in that whole mentality of, you know, suck it up princess, you know, have a shot of concrete and toughen up, you know, you're a fucking man.

[00:16:20] Hamish: I was still associating with older builders back then that was their mentality towards it. And I, kept it close to my chest. Like I didn't, for the first couple of years, I didn't tell anyone I was seeing a psychologist.

[00:16:32] Matt: Do you think that's changed? Or is that just, you're around people who are more like minded because I have to think, I still think there's a lot of it. It's just the people we're surrounded, bit surrounded with and the trades that we use on our sites and the people that we sort of work with, like we know they're not that type.

So we in this little, maybe bubble.

[00:16:49] Hamish: You know what? I want to think that the industry is changing. But I also want to think that, you know, the industry is changing towards more, sustainable and energy efficient homes, but maybe that's , just the bubble that I operate within. I think mental health just generally is becoming something that is. accepted more broadly, and that it's not actually seen as something to be ashamed of. Like, I hate the name of Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder. Like, it's not a fucking disorder. I tell you right now, I would not be where I am if I did not have these traits. It's a fucking superpower. But, when it's not managed right, It can also be my kryptonite, and I've said this quite openly to, a number of people before.

When I am on fire, I am on fucking fire, but when I'm not, I am not.

[00:17:39] Matt: , it's the rollercoaster of emotions. Yeah, you have, you have your moments and then unfortunately it comes back and bites you in the ass at times. How do you sort of strike that balance then? Like, sort of seeking professional help and then sort of implementing those self care strategies.

Like, you've obviously been taught over a period of time of. You've identified your times where if you might be sweaty hands, this is coming and all like you, you sort of get nauseous. Like, how do you know that when to go get help and maybe see, speak to someone or that you can manage it yourself?

Like, when do you, how do you do that?

[00:18:11] Hamish: It's funny, I was actually talking to someone yesterday about their own experience with mental health and seeing a psychologist and is interesting. This person said to me, Oh, I've got my last psychologist appointment today. And I said, what do you mean you've got your last psychologist appointment?

He goes, Oh, you know, like I'm, I'm feeling better and it's my 10th one, you know, my mental health plans run out. I'm like, Oh, okay, cool. So get your car serviced yearly, you know, you think you're just fixed now, because I'll tell you what, you're never fucking fixed. Never. I know for me, my anxiety is something that I can manage, but it is always there. For me, I pre schedule all of my appointments with my psychologist and I would usually schedule six to eight months just so I know it's there and it's in my diary. So I see mine every three weeks.

and for me, it's the best 300 that I spend. Some of that's come back, comes back through Medicare, but even if it didn't, is the best fucking 300 I spend every three weeks for sure.

[00:19:11] Matt: I think the hard part is that unfortunately governments aren't giving enough. Like we're, we're probably in situations where you can afford it, but there are people that can't. I know the government just dropped, they carved the amount of rebate that they're giving. I think it went up to 20 sessions per COVID, , which is mind, mind baffling.

But I just want to touch on a point you sort of just said there where, going back a bit, you said that you had to book into your psychologist because you been going through this and you hadn't seen her. was that because you sort of stopped because you thought you're at this really good point and then you needed to go see her?

Like it's that whole, it goes back to that whole thing. That you forgot

[00:19:44] Hamish: yeah, so you're 100 percent right. Like, and look, I'm never going to know if I was seeing Lisa, whether or not I would have got to where I got. I'm never going to know that. But if I look historically, at times where I've kind of had dips and then I've kind of gone up again, they've actually been when I haven't seen my psychologist for a few months.

And in fact, some of the best sessions that I've had with my psychologist, is when I've been feeling great.

[00:20:17] Matt: Yeah. Like

[00:20:18] Hamish: Because that is, for me, in my opinion, that is the time where you get to work on yourself without any distractions, without any bullshit, without any problems that you've got to solve. Because it's actually laying the foundations for those next times when it's going to be shit and it's going to be tough.

Because in my experience, life is going to throw shit at you. And it's not going to be fucking peaches and cream all the time. Fucking oath again. Especially, and, and you know what? in the industry that we're in, it can happen in a fucking moment.

[00:20:56] Matt: Yeah, , it's so volatile. I think that what we do and maybe I'm a little bit biased is at the moment one of the hardest jobs. Like there is so much media beat down. We have to act like banks. We have to cash all projects. We have to deal with people, employees. We have to deal with like your phone never goes off because it's like, hey, I nailed this hammer.

It like this nail in really, really well today. Like everything you get is generally not a great conversation. And that does wear on you at some point, it does wear you down. So the, which goes into like that stigma in our industry about men. , and it is getting better and there are sort of places you can go to to be open about this now and sort of speak confidentiality sort of like with people.

how do we get better in this industry with mental health? Like, I know you're not an expert but I probably would say you are an expert because you have to live with this daily.

[00:21:47] Hamish: I'm an expert in my own field, I guess, of my own anxiety. And I can, as I said, I can only talk about mine. What can we do? Do you know the best thing you can do is fucking talk to your friends and go, how are you? How are you going? Right? We know when our friends aren't great. We know when there's something, maybe something's a little bit off, we are never going to know what a text message or what a quick phone call or Instagram message is going to do to somebody.

Someone might be metaphorically standing on the edge of the fucking cliff and you might reach out and say, hey, how you going? How are you doing? Is everything good? Do you want to have a chat? You're never going to know. And you might, you might do that. You might actually bring them back from that cliff and they may never tell you that that's what's happened.

I think checking in and, and I also, I kind of feel like this whole, are you okay thing may be a little bit watered down now, but I think the messaging is incredible. Like I think checking in on your friends is something that we should all do. And also checking in on yourself.

[00:22:51] Matt: We

[00:22:52] Hamish: And checking in, yeah, look, I, I love the whole premise of are you okay, don't, please don't think that I think it's not a great thing because it kind of is that reminder, it's that maintenance, that top up sort of idea. also check in on yourself. Like I think, we don't, we don't check in and really ask ourselves how we are enough and it's really been something that I've been checking in a lot now. I've started journaling, well it's dropped off a little bit, I was just thinking last night that I really want to pick that up again.

It's, it's eating healthy, it's, like, I don't drink much anymore, I know that that plays on my anxiety and mental health You know, and it's something I'm incredibly grateful that I didn't turn to that because I could quite easily could have gone the complete opposite. yeah, just talk, just be open about how you're feeling because honestly, the more of us, particularly men in construction, the more of us that can actually talk about how we're feeling.

going to start other conversations with, with people that are, in your network.

[00:23:51] Matt: yeah, I don't think people sort of, I think they underestimate the support network they have around themselves. And when, when you can get down, you kind of, I don't want to be the burden on my wife or my friends. Like they've got other things to deal with, but you know what, like some people unfortunately don't have those support networks and there are avenues to help with that, but Sort of saying, hey, I need help. Like, it's all okay.

[00:24:13] Hamish: I'll tell you a story where I reached out, I sent a text message to my team about that two months ago. And I was really honest with them all. I told them that I was struggling and I kind of laid out all the things that I wanted to get done from a work point of view before the end of the year.

And I basically turned around to them and said, I can't do this by myself. I don't have. I don't have the capacity and I don't have the mental stability to be able to do this alone. So I called on every single one of them and every single person within my business turned around and fucking stepped up. Like, there is absolutely no shame in asking for help. was a such a pivotal moment in starting to feel better was actually saying, guys, I'm struggling. I need a hand here.

[00:25:01] Matt: Yeah, the fact that you can go to your team is just incredible. Like, I've I've got, I usually got a lot to say, but at the moment I've got really very little because it's just, yeah, that's so, so powerful. let's wrap it up there. I'm so proud of you. we've only really known each other for probably, what, two, three years.

But the fact that we can have these conversations is one, I'm inspired. Two. just privileged to have people like you around me. I think that we can open up and we are, we're here to create change. And , we're sort of not waiting for others to create change. And I know that's sort of a cliche term, but it's conversations like this, that's just so, so important.

I personally see what happens when people don't have these conversations and shit can't hit the fan and it hurts and it ruins you for like a decade. It doesn't, it does get better, but it doesn't get better. So, mate, I, if you ever need anything, that I'm a call away. I know that you've got a support, awesome support network and you should be so proud of the conversations you can have with people because it's, it is truly inspiring.

[00:26:00] Hamish: Thanks, buddy. Um, And look to, to yourself and all the people that I consider. Part of my network and people that I lean in on when I am struggling, it sort of, it gets flipped around and, know that I'm always there. To support I'm going to finish on this one last thing when someone comes to you, they're not coming to you for you to solve their problem because you can't solve their problem. Just the simple act of listening to their problem probably does more for them than you can possibly imagine. So don't sit there trying to solve it for them. They're coming to you just to talk. There

[00:26:38] Matt: I honestly couldn't agree more. , what we'll also do, I think, in our show notes will put in a few different links if people are looking to reach out, and they do have issues and they're afraid to sort of speak out or , they need some help. There's definitely some great sort of organizations in our industry and not just our industry could be in any industry.

So that there are people that are here to help. And there are organizations that do specialize in this. So,

[00:26:59] Hamish: one that I will give a shout out to, and that's TX. So TX is the offshoot of Trademutt. Trademutt do those really loud, colourful t shirts that you might see kicking around. TX is actually a free service, counselling service for blue collar workers, so they understand the construction industry trades. , it is a free service, right?

Like you always talk to the same person. , they kind of become your go to person to chat with. Make that phone call before you, gets too much because , we don't want to see any more statistics in the construction industry. That's for sure.

[00:27:37] Matt: We want to see them on the positive direction, if anything. have a great day, bud. Thank you for sharing your

[00:27:41] Hamish: Thanks

[00:27:42] Matt: I'm sure we'll touch on this more. Other will dive deeper at some point, but, I can't wait to hear your positive stories as well.

[00:27:50] Hamish: plenty of positive stories, mate. Thanks Maddy.

[00:27:54] Matt: ya.

[00:27:55] Hamish: See ya.