1 00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:00,319 All right. 2 00:00:00,319 --> 00:00:02,039 Welcome back, SPC listeners. 3 00:00:02,059 --> 00:00:07,549 My guest today has been teaching people for over 20 years, maybe 4 00:00:07,549 --> 00:00:10,899 over nearly 10,000 hours of instruction, something like that. 5 00:00:11,189 --> 00:00:12,239 Nod if I'm right. 6 00:00:12,570 --> 00:00:12,850 Yeah. 7 00:00:13,069 --> 00:00:16,719 the FAA has named him Western Pacific CFI of the Year twice. 8 00:00:17,216 --> 00:00:17,536 Yeah 9 00:00:17,679 --> 00:00:21,059 built one of the most respected flight training platforms in general aviation, 10 00:00:21,089 --> 00:00:23,129 in my opinion, The Finer Points. 11 00:00:23,129 --> 00:00:25,869 Jason Miller, welcome to the Student Pilot Cast. 12 00:00:26,156 --> 00:00:26,766 Thanks, Bill. 13 00:00:26,776 --> 00:00:27,576 It's a pleasure to be here 14 00:00:56,981 --> 00:00:57,411 Awesome. 15 00:00:57,841 --> 00:01:02,111 It's been a while since we've, connected, maybe like a decade or more. 16 00:01:02,256 --> 00:01:02,706 Yeah 17 00:01:03,151 --> 00:01:06,621 so, I'd love to just kinda catch up with you a little bit on what 18 00:01:06,621 --> 00:01:09,931 you're up to these days and, what you're doing with The Finer Points. 19 00:01:09,931 --> 00:01:10,851 Just give me a high level 20 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:11,870 Yeah, sure. 21 00:01:11,870 --> 00:01:15,400 I mean, The Finer Points is, um, kinda still humming along. 22 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:20,530 I started it in 2005, as you know, and we still do, uh, podcasts and YouTube 23 00:01:20,530 --> 00:01:22,170 and social media and stuff like that. 24 00:01:22,170 --> 00:01:26,070 But really the business has evolved into a flight training app that's made 25 00:01:26,070 --> 00:01:30,530 for the iOS devices, whether it's a Mac computer, an iPad, or an iPhone. 26 00:01:31,390 --> 00:01:36,480 Um, and it's, it's really a download of almost e- my entire career. 27 00:01:37,013 --> 00:01:37,693 Wait a minute. 28 00:01:37,713 --> 00:01:40,263 Did you just say it w- it's got an app for the Mac? 29 00:01:40,744 --> 00:01:41,454 Yeah, it does. 30 00:01:41,554 --> 00:01:42,544 And that's brand new. 31 00:01:42,663 --> 00:01:43,273 know that. 32 00:01:43,444 --> 00:01:43,844 that's great. 33 00:01:43,854 --> 00:01:46,694 No, I, no, see, I got the, I, I go on shows like yours 34 00:01:46,694 --> 00:01:47,934 to try to get the word out. 35 00:01:47,984 --> 00:01:48,414 That's 36 00:01:48,697 --> 00:01:49,517 Exactly. 37 00:01:50,214 --> 00:01:51,524 that, that's… Yeah, so 38 00:01:51,547 --> 00:01:52,827 love, I love the app. 39 00:01:52,847 --> 00:01:55,977 I use it, I use it actually to prep for my own teaching, 40 00:01:56,306 --> 00:01:57,236 Wow, that's great. 41 00:01:57,286 --> 00:01:57,656 Yeah 42 00:01:58,057 --> 00:02:01,027 uh, because I just think it's… I, I just love your approach. 43 00:02:01,347 --> 00:02:03,587 And, uh, so anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you. 44 00:02:03,697 --> 00:02:04,427 Keep going. 45 00:02:04,427 --> 00:02:07,637 But I'm super happy to know that it works on a computer now too 46 00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:08,670 Yeah, it does. 47 00:02:08,670 --> 00:02:09,320 Yeah, check it out. 48 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,170 It should just sync with all your devices. 49 00:02:11,210 --> 00:02:13,570 Um, but yeah, that's, that's kind of it, you know? 50 00:02:13,570 --> 00:02:16,450 It's like that, the… Our app is different than almost all other 51 00:02:16,450 --> 00:02:20,320 ground schools in the sense that it's, it's a little bit, it models 52 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:21,770 real-world training, as you know. 53 00:02:21,770 --> 00:02:25,260 So, like, of course, there's the ground school side of it. 54 00:02:25,270 --> 00:02:28,780 That's the written test prep or the groundwork, home study course, 55 00:02:28,780 --> 00:02:29,580 whatever you wanna call it. 56 00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:34,270 But there's also the flight side, and on the flight side, each lesson 57 00:02:34,270 --> 00:02:37,140 is constructed with me giving you a briefing, and then we go to the 58 00:02:37,140 --> 00:02:38,890 plane, and then we do a debriefing. 59 00:02:38,890 --> 00:02:43,130 So it kinda models real life, and there's five courses in there now, 60 00:02:43,130 --> 00:02:46,770 and it's just growing and improving all the time, as, as you know. 61 00:02:46,770 --> 00:02:51,310 Now we have a Mac version, um, and that's what we put our whole heart into. 62 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:56,460 Um, I really feel like I, you know, after doing, like, podcasts and videos 63 00:02:56,460 --> 00:03:00,750 and just sort of throwing tips out at the world for 20 years or so, it feels 64 00:03:00,750 --> 00:03:04,620 really rewarding to me to be able to say to myself, "Okay, I want somebody 65 00:03:04,630 --> 00:03:08,950 ultimately to download this app and kinda know everything I know," you know? 66 00:03:08,950 --> 00:03:13,370 Like, as if I was your mentor for any rating or any certificate. 67 00:03:13,970 --> 00:03:17,430 Um, and, and yeah, so we, we, we put everything we've 68 00:03:17,430 --> 00:03:19,020 got in, into that product. 69 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,460 And that's, that's our future, and that's, that's what we're doing. 70 00:03:22,839 --> 00:03:23,839 Yeah, it's really cool. 71 00:03:23,869 --> 00:03:28,479 I love the, um, I mean, it's, it's not the app so much, it's the content. 72 00:03:28,619 --> 00:03:32,879 It's that 10,000 hours of experience that you've got that you're able to get 73 00:03:32,879 --> 00:03:36,979 across in there, and that's, that's what makes it so valuable to me and, uh, to 74 00:03:37,409 --> 00:03:39,019 a couple of my students who've used it 75 00:03:39,482 --> 00:03:40,022 Well, that's great. 76 00:03:40,032 --> 00:03:40,502 Thank you. 77 00:03:40,552 --> 00:03:43,152 It's great to hear that 'cause, you know, like I just said, that's my 78 00:03:43,152 --> 00:03:47,862 goal, is to have the users of the app feel as though they had-- they 79 00:03:47,882 --> 00:03:49,622 leveraged my experience, you know? 80 00:03:50,492 --> 00:03:52,992 As you know, there's not a lot of instructors that really 81 00:03:53,072 --> 00:03:56,462 teach full-time for very long. 82 00:03:56,472 --> 00:04:00,082 You know, most instructors are passing through, which, which is okay, but, 83 00:04:00,152 --> 00:04:03,752 um, I'm not one of those guys, and so I want, wanna create a product that sort 84 00:04:03,752 --> 00:04:07,992 of reflects what the world looks like if you stay in it for 20 years, you know? 85 00:04:08,567 --> 00:04:08,947 Yeah. 86 00:04:08,997 --> 00:04:09,717 I love that. 87 00:04:09,807 --> 00:04:14,917 I mean, most of my colleagues that I teach around and with are kids. 88 00:04:14,947 --> 00:04:17,767 They're literally the ages or younger than my kids, 89 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:18,490 Yeah. 90 00:04:18,647 --> 00:04:20,507 uh, pretty nuts. 91 00:04:20,507 --> 00:04:21,907 I mean, they're great instructors. 92 00:04:21,907 --> 00:04:24,857 I love working with them, and they keep me young, keep me, you 93 00:04:24,857 --> 00:04:26,797 know, keep, keep me inspired. 94 00:04:27,336 --> 00:04:27,896 Yeah 95 00:04:28,337 --> 00:04:30,547 they certainly don't have your type of experience. 96 00:04:31,427 --> 00:04:33,017 so yeah, I, I really love that. 97 00:04:33,107 --> 00:04:35,197 And that's what this podcast is really about. 98 00:04:35,207 --> 00:04:39,117 That's what I'm all about, is that lifelong learning, always 99 00:04:39,117 --> 00:04:40,607 a student kind of mentality, 100 00:04:40,712 --> 00:04:41,162 Mm-hmm 101 00:04:41,657 --> 00:04:42,927 I love the teaching. 102 00:04:43,347 --> 00:04:47,097 So before I get going further with that, I've got a question for you. 103 00:04:47,097 --> 00:04:47,227 You 104 00:04:47,398 --> 00:04:47,718 Sure 105 00:04:47,827 --> 00:04:48,247 music? 106 00:04:48,267 --> 00:04:50,747 Do you bring your guitar on your airplane camp trips? 107 00:04:50,928 --> 00:04:51,848 I do, I do. 108 00:04:51,848 --> 00:04:53,698 I always feel like it's a bit egregious. 109 00:04:53,698 --> 00:04:55,038 I've got everyone captive. 110 00:04:55,078 --> 00:04:56,588 They're there and they can't leave. 111 00:04:58,578 --> 00:05:01,268 They've already had a beer or something, so they can't fly away, 112 00:05:01,268 --> 00:05:02,788 and that's when I pull out the guitar. 113 00:05:03,568 --> 00:05:05,278 No, it's, uh… Yeah, yeah, I do. 114 00:05:05,278 --> 00:05:06,278 It's, it's a lot of fun. 115 00:05:06,278 --> 00:05:10,918 And I still play, um… It's funny where, where that happens, but I just played 116 00:05:10,918 --> 00:05:12,848 at my daughter's school two days ago. 117 00:05:12,898 --> 00:05:15,738 So, like, that kind of thing happens a lot where I'll, I'll go to the 118 00:05:15,748 --> 00:05:17,378 kids' school and play music or 119 00:05:17,687 --> 00:05:19,217 That's one of the things I remember. 120 00:05:19,247 --> 00:05:22,227 I'm pretty sure it was my first Oshkosh in 2008. 121 00:05:22,237 --> 00:05:22,497 It's one 122 00:05:22,568 --> 00:05:22,958 Yeah. 123 00:05:23,027 --> 00:05:27,677 remember is you w- us sitting around in Camp Scholer and you playing the guitar, 124 00:05:27,812 --> 00:05:28,292 Yeah. 125 00:05:28,372 --> 00:05:29,422 Well, that still happens. 126 00:05:29,422 --> 00:05:31,552 I'll be in Camp Scholer this summer if you're around. 127 00:05:31,767 --> 00:05:32,267 Perfect. 128 00:05:32,577 --> 00:05:37,687 Yeah, I'm probably… I, I think I'm gonna be, um, for the third time now, I think 129 00:05:37,687 --> 00:05:40,367 I'll be, uh, camping with my airplane, 130 00:05:40,784 --> 00:05:41,154 Oh, wow. 131 00:05:41,184 --> 00:05:41,504 Cool. 132 00:05:41,984 --> 00:05:43,264 Yeah, that's fun. 133 00:05:43,424 --> 00:05:44,534 The North 40 is fun too 134 00:05:45,097 --> 00:05:47,727 if I decide to make the trip, but I'll come over to listen 135 00:05:47,727 --> 00:05:48,717 to your music for sure in 136 00:05:48,872 --> 00:05:49,392 Yeah. 137 00:05:49,462 --> 00:05:50,372 Oh boy, pressure. 138 00:05:53,137 --> 00:05:57,177 All right, so, um, you know, just to kinda kick things off here, 139 00:05:57,277 --> 00:05:58,767 um, give you a little background. 140 00:05:58,777 --> 00:06:04,727 I've been a full-time CFI now for about 18 months, and I'm watching students 141 00:06:04,727 --> 00:06:08,817 show up at the flight school with wildly different levels of preparation. 142 00:06:09,032 --> 00:06:09,452 Mm-hmm. 143 00:06:09,587 --> 00:06:13,127 excellent, some are basically none, like, "What's this all about?" 144 00:06:13,288 --> 00:06:13,748 Yeah 145 00:06:14,507 --> 00:06:18,727 and you've been watching this type of thing longer than almost anybody I know. 146 00:06:18,952 --> 00:06:19,352 Yeah 147 00:06:19,477 --> 00:06:24,077 so I just wanna get a kind of an idea from inside your head, uh, 148 00:06:24,177 --> 00:06:28,207 what's your read on the state of flight training right now, 2026? 149 00:06:29,242 --> 00:06:32,352 Uh, we're, we're in recovery. 150 00:06:33,652 --> 00:06:37,122 This is, this is a recovery mode, I think that, that what, 151 00:06:37,152 --> 00:06:38,432 what we're into right now. 152 00:06:38,432 --> 00:06:42,172 I mean, uh, from trying to get the years right, 20- 153 00:06:44,498 --> 00:06:48,088 2015 maybe, maybe a little earlier than that. 154 00:06:48,088 --> 00:06:53,648 From like 2015 to 2023 was, was like an explosive growth. 155 00:06:53,728 --> 00:06:56,388 You know, you remember everybody was getting hired, y- right? 156 00:06:56,388 --> 00:07:01,008 So people were just moving through the system so fast, and we took a lot 157 00:07:01,008 --> 00:07:03,078 of steps backward during that time. 158 00:07:03,928 --> 00:07:08,348 And now I think we're-- the hiring has slowed down a little bit, which is good. 159 00:07:08,788 --> 00:07:12,148 And for anybody that is listening that doesn't quite get the correlation 160 00:07:12,148 --> 00:07:16,578 there, it's when the CFIs are hired rapidly that way, then you 161 00:07:16,588 --> 00:07:20,948 have nobody with any experience really teaching the newer people. 162 00:07:20,968 --> 00:07:24,798 And so then you start to… It's like, uh, snowballing mistakes. 163 00:07:24,798 --> 00:07:29,718 We say babies teaching babies, and that's a symptom of the industry 164 00:07:29,718 --> 00:07:32,658 in any situation, at any time. 165 00:07:32,728 --> 00:07:35,978 You know, it's just the way it works out is most people don't teach for very long. 166 00:07:35,978 --> 00:07:40,838 But for those 10 years or so, 2013 to 2023, something like that, it was 167 00:07:40,838 --> 00:07:45,108 really bad and it, and, and it was starting to show up in accidents. 168 00:07:45,108 --> 00:07:49,868 And it's scary for me as somebody who depends on this industry for my 169 00:07:49,868 --> 00:07:56,878 livelihood because the, the industry, so to, so to speak, has kind of amnesia. 170 00:07:56,918 --> 00:08:01,018 We don't remember what happened in the '80s, which is there were so many 171 00:08:01,018 --> 00:08:03,988 accidents, the entire industry shut down. 172 00:08:04,448 --> 00:08:06,478 Like they just-- it ground to a halt. 173 00:08:07,148 --> 00:08:09,888 A lot of people don't know that, you know, from '86 to… 174 00:08:10,697 --> 00:08:14,957 amnesia, like these, these instructors weren't even twinkles in their 175 00:08:14,957 --> 00:08:16,527 parents' eyes yet in the '80s, 176 00:08:16,702 --> 00:08:18,302 That's, why I blame the industry. 177 00:08:18,322 --> 00:08:21,612 I blame-- I, to be honest, I'm trying not to blame my competition, but I 178 00:08:21,612 --> 00:08:25,332 really think that, like, some of the big gorillas in the room that are positioned 179 00:08:25,372 --> 00:08:30,932 to, you know, that are the go-to brands for ground school or whatever are, are-- 180 00:08:31,372 --> 00:08:32,962 They have a certain responsibility. 181 00:08:32,962 --> 00:08:35,812 They're in a position where they can make a difference, and 182 00:08:35,812 --> 00:08:37,022 they should make a difference. 183 00:08:37,022 --> 00:08:38,622 And, um, 184 00:08:39,261 --> 00:08:39,411 Mm-hmm. 185 00:08:39,432 --> 00:08:42,632 it's my belief they, they don't really make a diff- You know, they, 186 00:08:42,642 --> 00:08:45,742 they are getting pushed in that direction, but they have to get pushed. 187 00:08:46,342 --> 00:08:49,292 So yeah, I mean, so, so kids coming in don't really know 188 00:08:49,302 --> 00:08:50,372 the difference, you know? 189 00:08:50,372 --> 00:08:53,312 And, um, I think we're, we're starting to recover from that. 190 00:08:53,322 --> 00:08:56,612 In fact, you can see the FAA take aim at that. 191 00:08:56,612 --> 00:08:59,502 We haven't spoken too much about it publicly, but I'm not sure if you're 192 00:08:59,502 --> 00:09:02,972 aware, the FAA just announced they're overhauling the entire way they do 193 00:09:02,972 --> 00:09:05,932 written tests, and they're taking aim. 194 00:09:06,073 --> 00:09:06,423 it yet 195 00:09:06,692 --> 00:09:07,672 Yeah, it's brand new. 196 00:09:07,702 --> 00:09:12,642 Um, they're taking aim at, um, some of the big companies that are helping 197 00:09:12,642 --> 00:09:15,132 students memorize answers, right? 198 00:09:15,132 --> 00:09:15,892 They're getting rid of it. 199 00:09:16,402 --> 00:09:20,502 They're gonna no longer publish the airman testing supplements at all. 200 00:09:20,502 --> 00:09:23,912 Nobody will have any idea what figures are going into the written tests. 201 00:09:23,912 --> 00:09:28,402 They're gonna start writing questions that pull from the knowledge codes 202 00:09:28,402 --> 00:09:30,172 of the flight tasks on the ACS. 203 00:09:30,172 --> 00:09:34,582 We had a student come back from a test not too long ago saying one of the 204 00:09:34,582 --> 00:09:38,902 questions he got was, where should he position the aircraft during a run-up, on 205 00:09:38,902 --> 00:09:41,032 the taxiway, on the ramp, or, you know. 206 00:09:41,392 --> 00:09:44,872 But it was like an operational question on a written test, right? 207 00:09:45,055 --> 00:09:45,435 Right. 208 00:09:45,492 --> 00:09:49,862 So we're moving into, like, the FAA is, is it's, it's on the front burner 209 00:09:49,862 --> 00:09:52,022 for them to start to fix that problem. 210 00:09:52,407 --> 00:09:53,067 Interesting. 211 00:09:53,262 --> 00:09:53,562 Yeah. 212 00:09:53,562 --> 00:09:54,412 And I, yeah 213 00:09:54,517 --> 00:09:57,177 they got rid of the questions that had wrong answers. 214 00:09:57,286 --> 00:09:58,226 I know, right? 215 00:09:58,307 --> 00:09:58,897 that step, 216 00:09:59,066 --> 00:09:59,466 I know. 217 00:09:59,466 --> 00:10:02,486 It's like, it's like watching molasses flow uphill. 218 00:10:02,486 --> 00:10:06,376 It's so slow, I can't… They promised this, honestly, when they 219 00:10:06,376 --> 00:10:08,096 released the ACS in, what was it? 220 00:10:08,096 --> 00:10:09,266 Like 2008. 221 00:10:09,286 --> 00:10:09,356 I 222 00:10:09,449 --> 00:10:10,109 that was a long time 223 00:10:10,306 --> 00:10:11,366 a long time ago, right? 224 00:10:11,366 --> 00:10:14,466 And, and that, that was the promise, and they're finally delivering. 225 00:10:15,116 --> 00:10:19,116 And for, you know, for us at The Finer Points, I feel we're really 226 00:10:19,116 --> 00:10:23,766 well-positioned to absorb that because our philosophy has always 227 00:10:23,766 --> 00:10:25,926 been there's no memorization. 228 00:10:25,936 --> 00:10:29,856 Like, we're gonna teach everybody the truth, we're gonna teach it fully, 229 00:10:29,876 --> 00:10:32,856 we're gonna make sure they understand it, and then the written test should 230 00:10:32,866 --> 00:10:35,766 be a no-brainer regardless of what questions are on there, you know? 231 00:10:36,496 --> 00:10:39,636 Um, in fact, over the years, we continued, or we're, we're-- it's, 232 00:10:39,646 --> 00:10:42,526 it's so nice that the FAA is doing what they're doing because people have 233 00:10:42,526 --> 00:10:47,096 been continuing to send us requests for more, like, Shepherd Air-type things. 234 00:10:47,096 --> 00:10:49,586 They're like, "Can you just show us the whole database and let us 235 00:10:49,586 --> 00:10:52,226 go through all the questions?" And we're like, "Uh, I don't know if I 236 00:10:52,226 --> 00:10:53,896 wanna do that exactly." You know? 237 00:10:54,636 --> 00:10:57,746 And now there's no reason to do it 'cause the FAA's cha- 238 00:10:57,776 --> 00:10:59,486 those companies are in trouble. 239 00:10:59,486 --> 00:11:00,436 I don't know what they're gonna do. 240 00:11:01,695 --> 00:11:01,915 Oh, 241 00:11:02,176 --> 00:11:02,906 You know the ones… 242 00:11:03,346 --> 00:11:03,746 Yeah. 243 00:11:04,656 --> 00:11:05,406 Um, so 244 00:11:06,445 --> 00:11:09,695 yeah, you, um, you mentioned the steps backward we're taking, and 245 00:11:09,695 --> 00:11:12,035 then you mentioned, um, safety. 246 00:11:12,456 --> 00:11:12,846 Mm-hmm 247 00:11:12,985 --> 00:11:15,375 is that the only metric you use for that? 248 00:11:15,375 --> 00:11:19,535 Or what other metrics or what other things are you noticing that indicate 249 00:11:19,545 --> 00:11:21,315 the steps backward that we took? 250 00:11:21,976 --> 00:11:28,366 Well, the, it's, it's anecdotal for me, so it's-- I don't wanna judge 251 00:11:28,576 --> 00:11:30,686 the industry based on what I hear. 252 00:11:30,776 --> 00:11:35,176 But being in the position that I'm in, uh, you know, we have our CFI club where we've 253 00:11:35,176 --> 00:11:37,946 got almost 4,000 CFIs around the country. 254 00:11:38,716 --> 00:11:41,966 We've got our public-facing app, so we have support tickets, 255 00:11:41,966 --> 00:11:43,916 and people send us questions. 256 00:11:44,236 --> 00:11:48,306 And so during that time when it was really bad, um, I can just tell you 257 00:11:48,306 --> 00:11:52,566 in one story that's anecdotal from my life, but a guy calls me from the East 258 00:11:52,566 --> 00:11:57,246 Coast and says his instructor thinks he's ready to solo, but he's gonna be in 259 00:11:57,246 --> 00:12:01,216 California, and he wants to fly with me to see if I agree with his instructor. 260 00:12:01,886 --> 00:12:07,596 So we, we get, we get there and, um, you know, I do a little bit of vetting. 261 00:12:07,606 --> 00:12:11,076 Like I look at his driver's license, and I get to know him a little bit. 262 00:12:11,076 --> 00:12:13,876 But by and large, people call me and we get in the airplane, we go to the 263 00:12:13,876 --> 00:12:16,486 airplane, we get in, I take it… I looked at his logbook a little. 264 00:12:17,516 --> 00:12:19,636 But I asked him to start the engine of the aircraft, and he 265 00:12:19,636 --> 00:12:20,856 told me, "I've never done that." 266 00:12:22,046 --> 00:12:24,776 And I was like: "Wait, you're, but you're pre-solo, right?" And he's like: "Yeah, 267 00:12:24,776 --> 00:12:27,706 I'm, I'm ready to solo." He's like, "But my CFI just starts the airplane 268 00:12:27,706 --> 00:12:30,146 every time." And I was like, "Okay." 269 00:12:30,195 --> 00:12:30,675 Wow 270 00:12:30,766 --> 00:12:31,066 Yeah. 271 00:12:31,066 --> 00:12:33,686 And so anyway, through the course of getting to know this kid, I come 272 00:12:33,686 --> 00:12:37,106 to realize that his instructor has never left the traffic pattern with 273 00:12:37,106 --> 00:12:40,986 him, that his instructor shows up to the lesson, his instructor brings 274 00:12:40,986 --> 00:12:44,766 the airplane, his instructor starts the engine, and his instructor just 275 00:12:44,766 --> 00:12:46,256 runs laps in the pattern with him. 276 00:12:46,256 --> 00:12:50,216 He'd never done slow flight, he'd never done stalls, he'd never done steep turns. 277 00:12:50,706 --> 00:12:51,896 That's just one story. 278 00:12:52,526 --> 00:12:57,066 Um, another story, you know, so by the way, you, you're an instructor now too. 279 00:12:57,066 --> 00:13:01,536 That, with that story, it was very, very difficult for me to not contact 280 00:13:01,536 --> 00:13:06,706 the FAA 'cause that, that instructor is, in my opinion, criminally negligent. 281 00:13:06,706 --> 00:13:08,116 I mean, that's really bad. 282 00:13:08,856 --> 00:13:11,866 But I hear stories of instrument instructors that say things like, 283 00:13:11,866 --> 00:13:15,486 "I'm not comfortable flying in the clouds in a light airplane," so they 284 00:13:15,486 --> 00:13:17,746 won't go into IMC with their students. 285 00:13:18,756 --> 00:13:21,386 Um, you know, these kinds of things. 286 00:13:21,386 --> 00:13:26,656 Like I just have a sense that, uh, the pilots that we're producing are 287 00:13:26,656 --> 00:13:30,666 just it's not as at a, at a, at as high a level as it might have been. 288 00:13:30,666 --> 00:13:34,276 Now, if you look back, I always joke that I got started during the drought, right? 289 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:36,986 Because we just dis- discussed 290 00:13:37,003 --> 00:13:37,703 you learn to fly? 291 00:13:38,226 --> 00:13:43,716 '97. So, so the year that I started was the year Cessna 292 00:13:43,746 --> 00:13:45,676 started making planes again. 293 00:13:45,726 --> 00:13:46,226 So 294 00:13:46,231 --> 00:13:46,641 All right 295 00:13:46,756 --> 00:13:50,116 from '86 to '97, the whole industry was shut down because of 296 00:13:50,116 --> 00:13:52,366 liability and lawsuits and safety. 297 00:13:52,896 --> 00:13:53,836 And so it was a drought. 298 00:13:53,846 --> 00:13:59,346 We went from, we had about a million pilots in '86 down to 200,000 in '97. 299 00:13:59,356 --> 00:14:04,657 We lost 700,000 active pilots during, during the shutdown when I started 300 00:14:04,657 --> 00:14:10,397 flying in 1997, it was the, I call the, the beginning of the new era really. 301 00:14:10,397 --> 00:14:13,157 I mean, it was th- for the eight years prior to that, 302 00:14:13,167 --> 00:14:14,777 nobody was making airplanes. 303 00:14:14,777 --> 00:14:19,947 We lost 700,000 pilots just to quitting and going into other things. 304 00:14:21,257 --> 00:14:26,087 So I call it the drought is when I, when, when I entered the industry, and at 305 00:14:26,087 --> 00:14:28,817 that time nobody was hiring instructors. 306 00:14:28,817 --> 00:14:31,637 So when you went into a flight school, like when I went into a flight school 307 00:14:31,637 --> 00:14:36,307 for my first job, there was like this whole cadre of senior guys. 308 00:14:36,307 --> 00:14:37,617 I mean, gray beard. 309 00:14:37,768 --> 00:14:38,128 right? 310 00:14:38,327 --> 00:14:39,777 grizzled graybeards. 311 00:14:39,777 --> 00:14:41,187 They've been teaching for decades. 312 00:14:41,187 --> 00:14:42,957 They're probably like, you know, like me today. 313 00:14:43,727 --> 00:14:46,897 But, um, you know, then there's the younger instructors and, 314 00:14:46,937 --> 00:14:49,497 and all the younger instructors, we had to pass muster. 315 00:14:49,497 --> 00:14:52,047 We had to like please the older guys. 316 00:14:52,047 --> 00:14:54,737 The older guys are the ones that did all the phase checks, and if you're 317 00:14:54,737 --> 00:14:57,647 a young instructor and you turn in a student for a phase check and they're 318 00:14:57,647 --> 00:15:01,847 not up to snuff, it was like, you know, you got smacked down in the next CFI 319 00:15:01,847 --> 00:15:03,557 meeting and you had to bring your skills. 320 00:15:03,727 --> 00:15:04,267 Yeah. 321 00:15:04,867 --> 00:15:09,852 So the climate during the accelerated period we just talked about tw- thir- 2013 322 00:15:09,852 --> 00:15:12,627 to 2023 was just the opposite of that. 323 00:15:12,627 --> 00:15:15,437 It was like there was, those guys are just nowhere to be found, guys 324 00:15:15,437 --> 00:15:19,707 and girls, and it was just a bunch of new people looking for guidance. 325 00:15:19,707 --> 00:15:25,617 And, um, it's one of the reasons we actually, you know, really focused on 326 00:15:25,617 --> 00:15:29,877 building the, the ground school product was to fill that void and to give… 327 00:15:29,897 --> 00:15:32,517 'Cause at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you're a 328 00:15:32,527 --> 00:15:34,257 new instructor per se, right? 329 00:15:34,257 --> 00:15:38,107 It's not, it's not how much ex- I mean, experience helps, sure. 330 00:15:38,597 --> 00:15:42,117 But it's, it's like your, your attitude and your approach to, to training. 331 00:15:42,727 --> 00:15:45,347 So like, you know, we have our CFI club now. 332 00:15:45,347 --> 00:15:49,117 A lot of those people are new CFIs or relatively new CFIs, 333 00:15:49,167 --> 00:15:50,657 but they want to be good. 334 00:15:51,117 --> 00:15:55,457 They have that same drive to excellence, and so they r- they 335 00:15:55,457 --> 00:15:57,177 gravitate toward our products. 336 00:15:57,577 --> 00:15:58,607 Like, I think that's fine. 337 00:15:58,607 --> 00:16:01,207 I mean, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be an airline pilot. 338 00:16:01,987 --> 00:16:06,467 It's just, you know, the people that don't know what they don't know are passing 339 00:16:06,467 --> 00:16:08,947 along things that can be dangerous, so 340 00:16:09,384 --> 00:16:09,774 Yeah 341 00:16:09,844 --> 00:16:10,674 I, I hear you. 342 00:16:11,344 --> 00:16:15,824 So what, uh, since you brought up CFI Club, um, why don't you 343 00:16:16,124 --> 00:16:17,564 talk a little bit about that 344 00:16:17,977 --> 00:16:18,397 Mm-hmm 345 00:16:18,754 --> 00:16:23,654 um, what kind of data you're receiving from that, that, that helps you kind of 346 00:16:23,654 --> 00:16:25,554 see the industry and see what it needs? 347 00:16:26,233 --> 00:16:29,623 Yeah, it's-- so it's probably a bit one-sided 'cause the, like I said, 348 00:16:29,623 --> 00:16:33,683 the people in our club, and our club is just a free club for CFIs to join. 349 00:16:34,313 --> 00:16:38,423 Um, you can, if anybody's listening and they want their CFI to join or they are 350 00:16:38,423 --> 00:16:45,223 a CFI, just go to, um, oh boy, cfi.club, I think is what it is, or cficlub.com. 351 00:16:45,283 --> 00:16:46,413 Something like that should work. 352 00:16:47,343 --> 00:16:47,753 Anyway, 353 00:16:47,824 --> 00:16:49,474 I'll put it, I'll find it and put it in the show 354 00:16:49,513 --> 00:16:50,113 there you go. 355 00:16:51,233 --> 00:16:53,803 Leave that to me to, to mess up the URL. 356 00:16:54,403 --> 00:16:56,373 But, um, it's, it's a free club. 357 00:16:56,373 --> 00:17:01,013 And one of the things that I always resented about CFI Club meetings in the 358 00:17:01,023 --> 00:17:06,093 real world is that it was just a lot of like administ-ad-administrative stuff. 359 00:17:06,123 --> 00:17:07,023 It used to drive me crazy. 360 00:17:07,023 --> 00:17:09,943 I mean, we get all these great instructors in one room, and 361 00:17:09,943 --> 00:17:12,523 everybody is like, you know… 362 00:17:12,523 --> 00:17:15,563 And d- I've worked at almost every flying club in the Bay Area, so in 363 00:17:15,563 --> 00:17:16,943 some cases it's a lot of people. 364 00:17:16,943 --> 00:17:19,983 It's like 70 people in a room at West Valley Flying Club 365 00:17:19,983 --> 00:17:21,863 or at Advantage Aviation. 366 00:17:21,863 --> 00:17:23,983 You've got dozens of CFIs in the room. 367 00:17:24,473 --> 00:17:29,733 And instead of talking about, you know, tradecraft and how to work 368 00:17:29,733 --> 00:17:32,723 through student problems, they would say things like, "Now I need everybody 369 00:17:32,723 --> 00:17:36,723 to make sure they put the binder in the red box at the end of the flight. 370 00:17:36,723 --> 00:17:40,253 If I see a binder in a blue box…" And it was like, you 371 00:17:40,253 --> 00:17:41,353 know, what are we doing here? 372 00:17:41,353 --> 00:17:43,853 You know, you got all these great instructors, and we're just getting 373 00:17:43,853 --> 00:17:45,223 all this administrative stuff. 374 00:17:45,223 --> 00:17:50,833 So first and foremost, our CFI Club is meant to be kind of a, a mentorship, 375 00:17:50,833 --> 00:17:53,953 and we have a meeting on the third Thursday of every month, and all 376 00:17:53,953 --> 00:17:59,503 the meeting archives are available on the dashboard for CFIs to view. 377 00:18:00,183 --> 00:18:04,443 But I want it to be a place where they can level up their game, you know. 378 00:18:04,443 --> 00:18:08,083 And, uh, a lot of the instructors in the group are experienced like myself. 379 00:18:08,083 --> 00:18:09,053 Some are brand new. 380 00:18:09,053 --> 00:18:14,693 But it's always good for everybody to talk about re- changes in the regulations or, 381 00:18:14,693 --> 00:18:19,633 like I mentioned, changes in the written testing or what to do if your student just 382 00:18:19,633 --> 00:18:21,933 can't figure out what height to flare at. 383 00:18:21,943 --> 00:18:24,003 You know, maybe somebody else has some ideas. 384 00:18:24,003 --> 00:18:24,823 Maybe I do. 385 00:18:25,293 --> 00:18:29,003 So we really get into the, the skill and the art of flight instruction. 386 00:18:29,673 --> 00:18:34,303 And there's actually even 48 videos there that I call the CFI Handbook 387 00:18:34,323 --> 00:18:38,533 that are just free for instructors that's really my brain dump for 388 00:18:38,553 --> 00:18:40,023 each lesson in our syllabus. 389 00:18:40,033 --> 00:18:41,303 Why are we doing the lesson? 390 00:18:41,303 --> 00:18:43,023 What's the objective of the lesson? 391 00:18:43,583 --> 00:18:45,703 Uh, what are some things you're probably gonna see people 392 00:18:45,703 --> 00:18:47,133 do, and how do you fix it? 393 00:18:47,223 --> 00:18:48,313 You know, stuff like that. 394 00:18:48,313 --> 00:18:53,063 So at this point, we've got a detailed syllabus in the app and on the dashboard. 395 00:18:53,063 --> 00:18:55,783 We've got those CFI Handbook videos. 396 00:18:55,793 --> 00:18:57,643 We've got monthly meetings for the instructors. 397 00:18:57,643 --> 00:19:01,213 So it's, uh, it's a way to just help instructors, really. 398 00:19:01,213 --> 00:19:05,383 I mean, I've been a ca-career instructor my whole life and, um, 399 00:19:06,303 --> 00:19:09,073 you know, if we can… Not my whole life, my whole adult life, really. 400 00:19:09,073 --> 00:19:10,973 My whole ca- my, whole career life. 401 00:19:11,673 --> 00:19:15,873 And if, if I can help people, uh, succeed during the time that they 402 00:19:15,903 --> 00:19:20,363 are flight instructors and if they can find success using our products, 403 00:19:20,363 --> 00:19:21,833 that's what the club is for. 404 00:19:22,704 --> 00:19:23,084 Awesome. 405 00:19:23,114 --> 00:19:26,294 Yeah, I find it an incredibly useful resource. 406 00:19:26,325 --> 00:19:26,815 Oh, good. 407 00:19:26,935 --> 00:19:27,945 I'm so happy to hear that. 408 00:19:28,004 --> 00:19:29,014 one appreciate it, 409 00:19:29,305 --> 00:19:29,615 Good. 410 00:19:29,805 --> 00:19:30,105 Thanks 411 00:19:30,464 --> 00:19:36,654 being a, uh, an older guy but a newer instructor, um, it, it's really helpful 412 00:19:36,654 --> 00:19:41,364 for me to, like you said, hone my craft and, and get as good as I can get, right, 413 00:19:41,593 --> 00:19:42,163 Yeah 414 00:19:42,374 --> 00:19:43,144 level I have. 415 00:19:43,684 --> 00:19:45,864 So yeah, it's, it's awesome. 416 00:19:45,874 --> 00:19:51,894 So that leads me to the question, Jason, what made you decide to go 417 00:19:51,914 --> 00:19:55,984 against what most of your peers were doing and become a career instructor? 418 00:19:56,643 --> 00:19:56,803 You 419 00:19:56,844 --> 00:19:58,214 Why, education? 420 00:19:58,274 --> 00:19:59,484 Why, why did you go that route? 421 00:19:59,763 --> 00:20:00,463 yeah, it's funny. 422 00:20:00,463 --> 00:20:03,803 I think it was, uh, um, looking backwards on my life, it was a series 423 00:20:03,803 --> 00:20:08,553 of interesting coincidences, but a powerful moment for me was, you know, 424 00:20:08,563 --> 00:20:10,473 my music was my first career, right? 425 00:20:10,493 --> 00:20:12,973 So I was, um, touring in a band. 426 00:20:12,973 --> 00:20:18,083 We were doing quite well at, you know, pretty big shows, bringing in 1,200 427 00:20:18,083 --> 00:20:21,843 people, 1,500 people to these theaters in Chicago, and yeah, it was great. 428 00:20:22,703 --> 00:20:27,363 And, um, we were booked for, like, a year when we decided to call it quits. 429 00:20:27,363 --> 00:20:30,703 So for, for that year I, I knew that I was going into aviation. 430 00:20:30,713 --> 00:20:34,043 I mean, all I read in the tour van was aviation books. 431 00:20:34,043 --> 00:20:35,663 I'd re- I'd mail order books. 432 00:20:35,663 --> 00:20:36,883 I read Flying magazine. 433 00:20:36,893 --> 00:20:38,183 That's, like, all I thought about. 434 00:20:39,013 --> 00:20:42,003 Um, you know, I don't know if you know, like, Bruce Dickinson from Iron Maiden, 435 00:20:42,003 --> 00:20:43,793 you know how he fly, he flies the 757, 436 00:20:44,052 --> 00:20:44,362 Yeah 437 00:20:44,423 --> 00:20:44,623 right? 438 00:20:44,623 --> 00:20:45,693 So he was, like, my hero. 439 00:20:45,693 --> 00:20:50,623 I'm like, "I'm gonna fly the van someday." But, um, ultimately, that 440 00:20:50,623 --> 00:20:54,093 didn't work out, and I went immediately into aviation, and I got a job at an 441 00:20:54,103 --> 00:20:56,423 FBO in a charter company in Chicago. 442 00:20:57,083 --> 00:21:02,253 By sheer coincidence, all of the pilots who worked at the charter company, 443 00:21:02,563 --> 00:21:07,243 well, most of them, were Eastern Airline pilots that were furloughed in their 50s. 444 00:21:07,403 --> 00:21:11,753 So this is probably older than most of your audience remembers, but Eastern 445 00:21:11,753 --> 00:21:13,983 Airlines used to be like United Airlines. 446 00:21:13,983 --> 00:21:14,503 I mean, it was 447 00:21:14,503 --> 00:21:15,733 a, it was a staple. 448 00:21:15,733 --> 00:21:16,413 It was a thing. 449 00:21:16,413 --> 00:21:19,453 It was never going away, and all these guys gave their whole life 450 00:21:19,483 --> 00:21:22,463 to it, and then Eastern folded. 451 00:21:22,943 --> 00:21:28,923 So literally every pilot I met at, at my job at Priester was just jaded and angry 452 00:21:28,923 --> 00:21:30,533 and telling me, "Oh, you can't be a pilot. 453 00:21:30,543 --> 00:21:31,743 You're gonna need a fallback. 454 00:21:32,073 --> 00:21:34,153 You can't-- Don't risk your life on becoming a pilot." 455 00:21:34,183 --> 00:21:35,223 Like, they were just angry. 456 00:21:35,223 --> 00:21:41,773 So, like, my first awareness of airline flying was that you have 457 00:21:41,773 --> 00:21:44,503 to get, at that time, you had to get a four-year college degree. 458 00:21:45,063 --> 00:21:50,373 Then you have to go do about 70 to $100,000 of technical training, right? 459 00:21:50,793 --> 00:21:52,223 Then you have to slave away. 460 00:21:52,223 --> 00:21:55,543 At the time, you had to work at jobs where you're making 19,000 a year. 461 00:21:55,543 --> 00:21:57,693 This has all changed, but, but 462 00:21:57,852 --> 00:21:58,982 15 years sometimes 463 00:21:59,183 --> 00:22:00,283 15 years, right? 464 00:22:00,283 --> 00:22:04,543 And then all of that to end up at a company where if they fold, I go to 465 00:22:04,543 --> 00:22:06,483 the back of the line when I'm 60? 466 00:22:06,523 --> 00:22:11,163 I mean, the risk analysis was just like, how are you guys tolerating 467 00:22:11,163 --> 00:22:12,943 the risk of that endeavor? 468 00:22:12,943 --> 00:22:16,653 I mean, especially because your flying skills atrophy to some extent. 469 00:22:16,673 --> 00:22:19,803 You know, if you're an airline pilot and you're not flying in the general 470 00:22:19,803 --> 00:22:23,793 aviation world, sometimes you don't ever fly in the general aviation world again. 471 00:22:23,803 --> 00:22:24,153 I mean, 472 00:22:24,528 --> 00:22:24,828 Right? 473 00:22:25,003 --> 00:22:27,043 flying a light plane is very, very different. 474 00:22:27,863 --> 00:22:29,603 And, um, so all of that come out… 475 00:22:29,603 --> 00:22:33,493 You know, so that was one big, I think, kinda seminal moment 476 00:22:33,493 --> 00:22:37,033 for me, was understanding that that is what the reality is. 477 00:22:37,033 --> 00:22:38,993 I c- it took me a while to even believe it. 478 00:22:38,993 --> 00:22:42,223 I couldn't believe it that your, that your seniority number is tied 479 00:22:42,223 --> 00:22:46,383 to the company, not to your years of experience, but to, to the company. 480 00:22:46,820 --> 00:22:49,890 Or even how good you are at your job. 481 00:22:49,890 --> 00:22:52,560 There's no, there's no way to set yourself apart other than 482 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,060 I got hired earlier than you. 483 00:22:54,265 --> 00:22:55,005 Exactly. 484 00:22:55,015 --> 00:22:55,425 Yeah. 485 00:22:55,615 --> 00:22:56,795 It's kinda crazy, yeah. 486 00:22:57,315 --> 00:23:00,405 And then, you know, other things over time, like I'm a real homebody. 487 00:23:00,405 --> 00:23:01,865 I'm, I'm a family guy. 488 00:23:02,145 --> 00:23:05,955 Like, uh, I get up early, you know, so I'll get up at 4:30, but come 489 00:23:05,955 --> 00:23:09,825 like 5:00, I mostly just wanna be with my wife and kids , you know? 490 00:23:10,255 --> 00:23:10,625 I… 491 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:11,820 in a hotel room or 492 00:23:11,835 --> 00:23:13,385 Not in a hotel room, yeah. 493 00:23:13,385 --> 00:23:16,835 And so, like, even just the heaviness of, like, when my kids were young, 494 00:23:16,855 --> 00:23:20,215 um, like having a baby at home, there were, there were some trips 495 00:23:20,215 --> 00:23:23,495 and I would look at these, you know, but thinking, "Do I wanna do this?" 496 00:23:23,495 --> 00:23:27,995 But some trips would have me fly somewhere else, let's say Dallas, 497 00:23:28,335 --> 00:23:31,595 then I have to go to Seattle, then I have to come back to San Francisco, 498 00:23:31,595 --> 00:23:35,655 where I'm a mile away from my wife and kids, and then depart again at, 499 00:23:35,885 --> 00:23:40,145 midnight to go stay in some hotel in Bakersfield by myself. 500 00:23:40,145 --> 00:23:42,115 I mean, just the… I don't know. 501 00:23:42,135 --> 00:23:44,465 It just wasn't a life for me, honestly. 502 00:23:44,465 --> 00:23:49,315 Plus, I'm pretty entrepreneurial and very, like, creativity is important to me, so I 503 00:23:49,594 --> 00:23:51,464 Oh I hadn't noticed I'm just kidding 504 00:23:52,235 --> 00:23:56,805 I think just, you know, controlling my own fate and, um, you know, being able 505 00:23:56,805 --> 00:24:01,185 to do some music and edit and learn video and all of that was a part of 506 00:24:01,185 --> 00:24:02,755 how I ended up at The Finer Points. 507 00:24:02,795 --> 00:24:04,705 But the reality is I love teaching. 508 00:24:04,745 --> 00:24:06,495 I mean, that's just the thing is, you know. 509 00:24:06,525 --> 00:24:10,795 And moving to California from Chicago, I realized with the weather 510 00:24:10,795 --> 00:24:14,665 the way it is here, people can teach for real, like, for as a job. 511 00:24:14,815 --> 00:24:16,055 It's a thing people do. 512 00:24:16,385 --> 00:24:19,975 My mentor, Richard, was 52 when I met him, and he was just a 513 00:24:19,975 --> 00:24:21,225 professional flight instructor. 514 00:24:21,235 --> 00:24:22,395 That's what he, that's what he did. 515 00:24:23,665 --> 00:24:24,165 So that sort- 516 00:24:24,248 --> 00:24:28,408 role model there to kind of pattern you know your future career off of 517 00:24:28,473 --> 00:24:29,583 Yeah, 100%. 518 00:24:29,713 --> 00:24:34,753 And it was a-- And I lived in an, in an area at that time, um, you know, where 519 00:24:34,913 --> 00:24:41,663 everybody just had money and time and flexible schedules, and just almost 520 00:24:41,673 --> 00:24:44,633 instantly there were more students than I could handle that would pay pretty 521 00:24:44,633 --> 00:24:46,553 much whatever I would charge, you know? 522 00:24:47,368 --> 00:24:48,038 Interesting 523 00:24:48,203 --> 00:24:48,533 Yeah. 524 00:24:48,628 --> 00:24:54,318 Yeah Okay um if I if you don't mind I'm gonna go back to CFI Club real quick 525 00:24:54,465 --> 00:24:54,775 Sure 526 00:24:55,398 --> 00:25:01,968 um and maybe not just CFI Club but the rest of your um experience see if 527 00:25:01,978 --> 00:25:05,668 you can talk about uh you've already mentioned some of these but where do 528 00:25:05,668 --> 00:25:08,888 you see the big struggles for CFIs 529 00:25:09,473 --> 00:25:09,973 Well 530 00:25:09,998 --> 00:25:12,998 today's world especially those who are in CFI Club and are 531 00:25:12,998 --> 00:25:14,518 really trying to be better 532 00:25:15,001 --> 00:25:15,541 Yeah. 533 00:25:15,541 --> 00:25:21,251 So that's what I was gonna say earlier, is that I think that my, my, um, my opinion 534 00:25:21,251 --> 00:25:24,621 of this is tainted a little bit by the CFI Club, 'cause I think that people 535 00:25:24,621 --> 00:25:29,151 that gravitate, like, like yourself, people that gravitate to it, that find 536 00:25:29,151 --> 00:25:34,591 it a great resource, that use the, the, the tools that we provide and the 537 00:25:34,591 --> 00:25:38,791 products that we provide, you're already, like, not the group that needs help. 538 00:25:39,871 --> 00:25:40,281 You know what I mean? 539 00:25:40,281 --> 00:25:41,161 It's like when you go to a, 540 00:25:41,384 --> 00:25:41,674 Doesn't 541 00:25:41,761 --> 00:25:41,991 to… 542 00:25:42,054 --> 00:25:42,864 it I need a lot of 543 00:25:43,171 --> 00:25:43,601 Do you? 544 00:25:43,611 --> 00:25:48,021 Well, even, even your awareness of that tells me something about 545 00:25:48,161 --> 00:25:49,601 how good of an instructor you are. 546 00:25:50,281 --> 00:25:53,201 Yeah, because I think caring is the big thing. 547 00:25:53,281 --> 00:25:57,711 You know, like, there are just so many instructors that either don't care or 548 00:25:57,711 --> 00:26:00,321 don't know that there's a difference. 549 00:26:00,361 --> 00:26:06,731 You know, I-- when I coach CFIs or even when I talk to my team about the, 550 00:26:06,741 --> 00:26:09,691 the products that we're building, I find myself a lot of times saying: 551 00:26:09,691 --> 00:26:11,461 Look, pilots aren't morons, right? 552 00:26:11,851 --> 00:26:14,961 They're not gonna pay more for the same thing they could get 553 00:26:14,971 --> 00:26:16,341 somewhere else for cheaper. 554 00:26:17,131 --> 00:26:21,241 But they will pay more for something that's far more excellent 555 00:26:21,301 --> 00:26:22,331 than the other thing, right? 556 00:26:22,331 --> 00:26:27,891 Like, pilots will complain, for example, about a 50 cent increase in fuel prices, 557 00:26:28,221 --> 00:26:30,521 but then they'll go buy a TBM, right? 558 00:26:30,521 --> 00:26:31,711 And so, like, what's the difference there? 559 00:26:31,711 --> 00:26:34,931 The difference is the fuel is the same thing, and they can get it 560 00:26:34,931 --> 00:26:36,851 for 50 cents less down the street. 561 00:26:36,861 --> 00:26:38,261 So they're not, they're not morons. 562 00:26:38,261 --> 00:26:41,001 They're not gonna pay more when they can get it cheaper down the street. 563 00:26:41,611 --> 00:26:46,491 But yet, if they see something that's glorious like a TBM, then 564 00:26:46,501 --> 00:26:48,041 they understand it's worth more. 565 00:26:48,601 --> 00:26:52,721 And I think that's important to remember as a flight instructor, is that if you 566 00:26:52,721 --> 00:26:57,241 can show up and deliver a product that's better than the product a lot of your 567 00:26:57,241 --> 00:27:01,831 colleagues are delivering, then it's a healthier ecosystem for everybody. 568 00:27:02,031 --> 00:27:04,001 A, your student gets better training. 569 00:27:04,301 --> 00:27:07,251 Your student will be more engaged with you as a student. 570 00:27:07,251 --> 00:27:11,821 Your student will allow you to charge more and not care so much about it, 'cause they 571 00:27:11,821 --> 00:27:16,621 understand they're getting the TBM and not the 50% or 50 cent increase in fuel. 572 00:27:17,761 --> 00:27:20,671 Um, and so I think caring is a, is a, is a big part and, and 573 00:27:20,671 --> 00:27:22,231 just knowing that there is… 574 00:27:22,301 --> 00:27:26,111 Like, going for excellence, I think is a big… A lot of CFIs 575 00:27:26,111 --> 00:27:27,621 are just not going for excellence. 576 00:27:28,466 --> 00:27:28,726 Hmm 577 00:27:28,871 --> 00:27:30,081 They're not even trying for it, 578 00:27:30,136 --> 00:27:32,146 So it's really the desire is the biggest thing 579 00:27:32,609 --> 00:27:35,359 I think the desires is a, is a very big thing. 580 00:27:35,499 --> 00:27:40,399 Um, and then, you know, a, a CFI is only as good as what 581 00:27:40,399 --> 00:27:41,699 they've been taught, right? 582 00:27:41,699 --> 00:27:44,779 Like a journalist is only as good as his sources, right? 583 00:27:44,779 --> 00:27:50,139 Like a, a CFI is only gonna, you know… So it d- a lot of it depends, like 584 00:27:50,139 --> 00:27:53,729 shades of gray would be like how much did the CFI really invest in themselves? 585 00:27:53,729 --> 00:27:58,339 Like did they come up through a Part 141 program like ATP and then find themselves 586 00:27:58,339 --> 00:28:03,469 now backpedaling trying to fill holes and, and get good all of a sudden? 587 00:28:04,089 --> 00:28:08,459 Or are they fortunate like I was to have met a mentor who just kinda took 588 00:28:08,459 --> 00:28:12,249 me under his wing and brought me all the way through the ratings and certificates? 589 00:28:13,069 --> 00:28:16,009 Um, so a lot of that stuff matters. 590 00:28:16,279 --> 00:28:18,489 I think I might've lost track of the original question. 591 00:28:19,078 --> 00:28:25,628 That's okay But um I I think what you're doing with CFI Club with um 592 00:28:25,688 --> 00:28:30,688 Finer Points with the app um all of that information is sort of like 593 00:28:30,698 --> 00:28:37,598 using technology to expand your impact and be that mentor to so many others 594 00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:38,339 100%. 595 00:28:38,438 --> 00:28:38,898 feel like 596 00:28:39,499 --> 00:28:39,779 Yep. 597 00:28:39,818 --> 00:28:40,528 mission then 598 00:28:40,639 --> 00:28:41,299 On the nose. 599 00:28:41,299 --> 00:28:42,489 Yeah, that's exactly it. 600 00:28:42,498 --> 00:28:42,878 Yep 601 00:28:43,459 --> 00:28:43,859 And I 602 00:28:43,918 --> 00:28:44,128 that 603 00:28:44,139 --> 00:28:47,709 feel very for- well, just, yeah, I feel very fortunate too, because if you look 604 00:28:47,709 --> 00:28:52,739 at a lot of the other organizations that, um, are trying to do this, they 605 00:28:52,739 --> 00:28:54,059 have to support themselves, right? 606 00:28:54,059 --> 00:28:55,329 So there's a… You have to pay. 607 00:28:55,329 --> 00:28:58,109 If you're a CFI and you wanna be a part of NAFI, for example, you have 608 00:28:58,109 --> 00:29:00,399 to pay $90 a year or whatever it is. 609 00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:04,709 But for us, it's a little bit more like software on an iPhone. 610 00:29:04,749 --> 00:29:08,909 Like, we make our money on the app that you're using with your students. 611 00:29:08,949 --> 00:29:12,279 Your s- you know, the, we don't, I don't wanna take the CFI's money. 612 00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:13,559 In fact, I wanna do the opposite. 613 00:29:13,559 --> 00:29:18,459 I wanna help the CFIs figure out how to make more money so that they can be better 614 00:29:18,459 --> 00:29:24,529 CFIs for longer in a more sustainable way, and ultimately influence their whole 615 00:29:24,529 --> 00:29:26,659 community and hopefully the industry, you 616 00:29:26,696 --> 00:29:31,486 Yeah there is no substitute for experience So if if you can make the tenure of 617 00:29:31,546 --> 00:29:34,366 a of an instructor in general longer 618 00:29:34,553 --> 00:29:34,903 Yeah 619 00:29:35,196 --> 00:29:39,346 that extra experience is going to necessarily create better instruction 620 00:29:39,609 --> 00:29:40,049 Yeah. 621 00:29:40,499 --> 00:29:40,749 Yeah. 622 00:29:40,749 --> 00:29:41,199 I mean, there-- 623 00:29:41,246 --> 00:29:41,566 I mean 624 00:29:41,569 --> 00:29:44,199 it, gets to-- There is a parabola there, but yeah. 625 00:29:44,209 --> 00:29:44,219 I 626 00:29:44,808 --> 00:29:45,178 Yeah 627 00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:48,739 know, you'll have guys that are, that have gone on autopilot many decades ago. 628 00:29:49,544 --> 00:29:50,674 Well that yeah 629 00:29:50,909 --> 00:29:51,329 But yeah. 630 00:29:51,344 --> 00:29:54,424 it's still a stepping stone and they're just bummed cause it's taking so long 631 00:29:54,424 --> 00:29:56,114 that's that's still different But 632 00:29:56,519 --> 00:29:56,869 Right 633 00:29:57,074 --> 00:30:01,524 but you know I I know for for sure I'll be a better instructor in 18 months 634 00:30:01,721 --> 00:30:02,161 Yeah. 635 00:30:02,384 --> 00:30:03,244 18 months ago 636 00:30:03,461 --> 00:30:04,301 Yeah, for sure 637 00:30:04,424 --> 00:30:07,894 I'll have had more experiences I will have figured out better 638 00:30:07,894 --> 00:30:09,534 ways to explain something and 639 00:30:09,817 --> 00:30:10,327 Yeah 640 00:30:10,474 --> 00:30:14,364 uh it that there is no substitute for that right That's why these 641 00:30:14,364 --> 00:30:15,904 mentorships are so important 642 00:30:16,249 --> 00:30:16,779 Yeah 643 00:30:17,604 --> 00:30:21,814 so that leads me to one of the big questions I wanted to ask you and that 644 00:30:21,814 --> 00:30:28,304 is about technology and training So um I think I think you're pretty wellpositioned 645 00:30:28,794 --> 00:30:34,554 to have been thinking about this Where where do you think technology has really 646 00:30:34,564 --> 00:30:38,634 improved aviation education and training 647 00:30:38,989 --> 00:30:39,199 Mm-hmm 648 00:30:39,244 --> 00:30:43,864 and where has it not In other words m maybe there's areas where 649 00:30:43,864 --> 00:30:46,474 it's made it worse So what's 650 00:30:46,489 --> 00:30:46,949 Yeah. 651 00:30:46,984 --> 00:30:47,194 that 652 00:30:47,489 --> 00:30:49,759 Um, just kind of riffing on it. 653 00:30:49,759 --> 00:30:53,549 It's funny, um, let me just tell you a, a quick, the story that 654 00:30:53,549 --> 00:30:56,229 seems like it's not related, but it actually answers your question. 655 00:30:56,739 --> 00:31:00,409 When my daughter… When we were living in San Francisco, we had… The schools there 656 00:31:00,409 --> 00:31:04,379 are kinda crazy, so we had my daughter in a private school, and it was a stretch. 657 00:31:04,379 --> 00:31:06,869 I mean, they had a sliding scale, but I'm just a CFI. 658 00:31:06,879 --> 00:31:10,319 A lot of these people were, like, Facebook tech founders and stuff like that, right? 659 00:31:10,319 --> 00:31:13,609 So struggling to keep up, and my wife and I are doing what we can to 660 00:31:13,609 --> 00:31:15,189 keep our daughter in private school. 661 00:31:15,659 --> 00:31:18,109 And one day she comes up to me at the dinner table and she says, 662 00:31:18,109 --> 00:31:21,229 "Hey, Dad, did you know that there's 48,000 different kinds of spiders?" 663 00:31:21,909 --> 00:31:24,009 And I just looked right at my wife, like, beaming. 664 00:31:24,009 --> 00:31:24,889 I was like, "You see? 665 00:31:24,979 --> 00:31:26,449 Like, private school education. 666 00:31:26,449 --> 00:31:28,689 That's why we're sending her to the private school." And she said, "Well, 667 00:31:28,689 --> 00:31:29,879 I didn't learn that in school, Dad. 668 00:31:29,879 --> 00:31:32,019 I saw it on Wild Kratts." Right? 669 00:31:32,029 --> 00:31:40,139 So, so, so my point is, I don't think we can underestimate the value of YouTube, 670 00:31:40,139 --> 00:31:43,859 and I know that sounds crazy because you can see anything you want on YouTube. 671 00:31:43,869 --> 00:31:46,729 You can see crazy garbage like people flying through the 672 00:31:46,729 --> 00:31:48,159 clouds and almost hitting trees. 673 00:31:48,189 --> 00:31:54,449 But with that, we get Blanco Lirio, we get the Air Safety Institute, and so 674 00:31:54,449 --> 00:31:59,369 much of, you know, for accident review, which has always been important, and I 675 00:31:59,369 --> 00:32:02,079 could talk about this for hours, so we should be careful, but, but accident 676 00:32:02,099 --> 00:32:04,749 review is the v- very beginning to safety. 677 00:32:04,749 --> 00:32:07,379 Like, if you don't know what's going on out there, like, if you 678 00:32:07,379 --> 00:32:10,389 don't know the problems people are getting into, you're bound to get 679 00:32:10,389 --> 00:32:12,059 into those same problems, right? 680 00:32:12,208 --> 00:32:14,288 a full addict for all those channels 681 00:32:14,449 --> 00:32:15,249 Everybody is. 682 00:32:15,259 --> 00:32:16,859 That's why it's so great, right? 683 00:32:16,859 --> 00:32:20,339 So that's what's so great, is I can make a joke to pilots now like, "Well, you don't 684 00:32:20,339 --> 00:32:23,799 wanna end up on the Blanco Lirio channel," and everyone knows what I'm talking of. 685 00:32:24,089 --> 00:32:24,429 Right? 686 00:32:24,989 --> 00:32:28,459 So that is a huge, uh, lift for safety. 687 00:32:28,469 --> 00:32:34,229 Just knowing, just the collective awareness of the problems people are 688 00:32:34,229 --> 00:32:37,739 encountering and putting that little bug in pilots' minds of, "I don't wanna 689 00:32:37,749 --> 00:32:40,329 be that person," that's a huge lift. 690 00:32:40,449 --> 00:32:46,339 Um, other technologies, like let's say EFBs, and I won't pick on any particular 691 00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:52,369 EFB, I think they s- they, they started out and, and continue to make, I would 692 00:32:52,369 --> 00:32:54,599 say, a net positive impact on safety. 693 00:32:55,089 --> 00:32:58,449 But we're getting into an area where they're, like, in my opinion, 694 00:32:58,449 --> 00:33:01,619 they've kind of… They're going off the rails a little bit. 695 00:33:02,419 --> 00:33:03,479 Um, and it's, it's kinda- 696 00:33:03,638 --> 00:33:06,388 super interesting This is a whole nother episode on 697 00:33:06,507 --> 00:33:06,927 I know. 698 00:33:06,927 --> 00:33:08,577 As I say, we have to… I just glanced at the clock. 699 00:33:08,577 --> 00:33:09,217 We have to be careful. 700 00:33:09,217 --> 00:33:10,577 But y- I'll tell you something funny. 701 00:33:11,107 --> 00:33:14,747 I've been advocating, like, I don't know if your listeners know or if you 702 00:33:14,747 --> 00:33:18,567 know that there's an organization called GAMA, the General Aviation Manufacturers 703 00:33:18,567 --> 00:33:22,977 Association, and it's like Piper, Cessna, Beechcraft, like all the big aviation 704 00:33:22,977 --> 00:33:26,657 manufacturers, and they get together in this sort of, I don't know what you'd 705 00:33:26,657 --> 00:33:31,207 call it, advisory group or whatever, where they agree on certain standards. 706 00:33:31,207 --> 00:33:35,637 They're, they're competitive businesses, but they, they work together to 707 00:33:35,637 --> 00:33:39,817 create a baseline standard for safety and, and effectiveness, I guess. 708 00:33:40,497 --> 00:33:44,827 And so I've been talking to ForeFlight and Garmin and on webinars and, like, 709 00:33:44,827 --> 00:33:48,287 everywhere I can, saying, "You guys need to do this." And it was Garmin 710 00:33:48,297 --> 00:33:52,327 that told me they actually do do it, but they only do it for commercial aviation. 711 00:33:52,327 --> 00:33:54,077 So this is in, this is an interesting truth. 712 00:33:54,387 --> 00:33:56,797 I don't know much about it, so I hope I'm not speaking out of turn. 713 00:33:56,797 --> 00:34:01,167 I just know that it exists, and that in the commercial world, representatives 714 00:34:01,167 --> 00:34:05,857 from Garmin and ForeFlight and other EFB manufacturers, Jeppesen, whoever else is 715 00:34:05,857 --> 00:34:11,077 providing databases, they do get together in a friendly, cooperative way to make 716 00:34:11,077 --> 00:34:14,607 sure that the standards of the, the, the features they're releasing aren't 717 00:34:14,617 --> 00:34:16,727 detrimental to pilots or whatever else. 718 00:34:17,407 --> 00:34:21,737 And we need the same thing in GA, because just recently, you know, 719 00:34:21,737 --> 00:34:23,107 I'll… not I'd say just recently. 720 00:34:23,107 --> 00:34:27,857 In the last four or five years, I've noticed my students just 721 00:34:27,867 --> 00:34:30,227 do just bizarre behavior. 722 00:34:30,227 --> 00:34:30,577 You know? 723 00:34:30,577 --> 00:34:33,417 I'll say, like, just basic things, just quiz them. 724 00:34:33,417 --> 00:34:36,397 Like we're inbound to an airport, I'll say, "Okay, so, uh, what's 725 00:34:36,397 --> 00:34:38,357 the ATIS for our destination?" 726 00:34:38,767 --> 00:34:41,647 And I'll just see them go onto their thing, and they tap, and then they 727 00:34:42,177 --> 00:34:43,767 tap, and they slide, and they tap. 728 00:34:43,767 --> 00:34:45,727 And I'm thinking, "Man, that was information that you 729 00:34:45,727 --> 00:34:47,707 just glanced at a minute ago. 730 00:34:48,047 --> 00:34:51,927 So w- on the paper chart you just glanced at it, it's 12465. 731 00:34:51,927 --> 00:34:52,397 That's it. 732 00:34:52,397 --> 00:34:54,187 I don't have to tap anything." Like, what have we done? 733 00:34:54,587 --> 00:34:56,087 You know, what are we doing here, you know? 734 00:34:56,547 --> 00:35:00,157 And so I, I think the EFB is a big challenge going forward and, 735 00:35:00,187 --> 00:35:02,257 and it's gonna be a hard one to 736 00:35:02,858 --> 00:35:04,598 awareness Like you said overall there's 737 00:35:04,953 --> 00:35:05,303 Yeah 738 00:35:05,908 --> 00:35:10,678 I mean you and I both started flying uh you probably don't know this but um I 739 00:35:10,718 --> 00:35:13,828 got my private 2008 We didn't have EFBs 740 00:35:13,935 --> 00:35:14,295 No 741 00:35:14,948 --> 00:35:18,638 you know I just was doing it for fun back then I had no idea I'd become a 742 00:35:18,808 --> 00:35:20,808 you know professional CFI at some point 743 00:35:20,961 --> 00:35:21,521 Right 744 00:35:21,868 --> 00:35:25,098 yeah I mean we've seen both sides and the situational awareness 745 00:35:25,098 --> 00:35:26,818 from those things is amazing 746 00:35:26,969 --> 00:35:27,249 is. 747 00:35:27,749 --> 00:35:28,199 It is 748 00:35:28,308 --> 00:35:29,938 can be super distracting 749 00:35:30,233 --> 00:35:30,243 Yeah. 750 00:35:30,243 --> 00:35:30,283 I mean, 751 00:35:30,618 --> 00:35:30,898 Yeah 752 00:35:31,253 --> 00:35:34,253 and, and, I would say situational awareness is amazing with a 753 00:35:34,253 --> 00:35:35,673 small asterisk at the end. 754 00:35:35,723 --> 00:35:38,663 But, um, it, you know, it's like the old joke how, you know, Steve Jobs 755 00:35:38,663 --> 00:35:40,683 didn't let his kid u- kids use iPads. 756 00:35:40,683 --> 00:35:41,363 Have you ever heard that? 757 00:35:41,806 --> 00:35:42,706 Oh yeah yeah yeah 758 00:35:42,993 --> 00:35:44,423 So I go to Palo Alto. 759 00:35:44,423 --> 00:35:45,833 This is the heart of Silicon Valley. 760 00:35:45,833 --> 00:35:48,053 I mean, Facebook, I could throw a rock on Facebook. 761 00:35:48,053 --> 00:35:49,263 I could throw a rock on Google. 762 00:35:49,263 --> 00:35:51,033 Like, everybody's there. 763 00:35:51,383 --> 00:35:52,363 Apple's there. 764 00:35:52,953 --> 00:35:56,513 And in Palo Alto, the, the largest flight school does not 765 00:35:56,513 --> 00:35:58,233 use iPads for training, period. 766 00:35:58,293 --> 00:36:00,803 They use paper still to this day, to this day. 767 00:36:01,453 --> 00:36:04,163 And so the reason I put the asterisk, it… 768 00:36:04,412 --> 00:36:05,492 for instrument right 769 00:36:05,743 --> 00:36:07,223 Not true for instrument, no. 770 00:36:07,743 --> 00:36:09,073 But, but I think what, 771 00:36:09,426 --> 00:36:09,676 Okay 772 00:36:09,993 --> 00:36:14,103 what they've recognized is the situational awareness is incredibly 773 00:36:14,103 --> 00:36:19,723 powerful, but more so, or let's say especially for people like you 774 00:36:19,723 --> 00:36:22,483 and I that started on paper, right? 775 00:36:22,483 --> 00:36:26,223 Because there is this other thing that happens, like where I hopefully, I think 776 00:36:26,223 --> 00:36:29,603 they've stopped doing it, but Cirrus back in like 2010 or something like 777 00:36:29,603 --> 00:36:33,043 that had a marketing thing going on in their booth at Oshkosh that sounded like 778 00:36:33,323 --> 00:36:36,303 something like, "You can now plan your flight on your phone," and they show 779 00:36:36,303 --> 00:36:40,853 a car pulling up to a phone and like, "Send it to your FMS, and off you go." 780 00:36:40,863 --> 00:36:44,653 And I was like, "Whoa. Wait, wait, wait a minute. You just said this guy's like 781 00:36:44,663 --> 00:36:48,243 planning a flight on his phone in the car, gets to the plane, throws it into 782 00:36:48,243 --> 00:36:53,173 the FMS, and off they go?" Like, that kind of stuff is a little spooky, you know? 783 00:36:53,173 --> 00:36:53,403 And 784 00:36:53,576 --> 00:36:54,026 Yeah 785 00:36:54,113 --> 00:36:57,463 so, so as much as it does bring amazing situational awareness, 786 00:36:57,463 --> 00:37:00,793 and I do not want anybody to hear this as I don't use an EFB. 787 00:37:00,803 --> 00:37:04,043 I do, and I recommend you- that people should. 788 00:37:04,753 --> 00:37:08,533 But the challenge I like to create with my students is, okay, let's 789 00:37:08,543 --> 00:37:12,433 plan a couple flights on paper, as, as horrible as that is, you know. 790 00:37:12,443 --> 00:37:14,053 We're gonna take three hours and, 791 00:37:14,298 --> 00:37:14,898 Mmhmm 792 00:37:15,023 --> 00:37:18,533 you know, we're gonna sit here and pore over everything for three hours 793 00:37:18,543 --> 00:37:21,953 and we're gonna plan it, and then we're gonna plan it on ForeFlight. 794 00:37:22,433 --> 00:37:24,713 Which one do you feel like you know more about? 795 00:37:25,263 --> 00:37:25,553 Which, 796 00:37:25,613 --> 00:37:25,983 which 797 00:37:26,013 --> 00:37:31,103 which, one of those two experiences, yeah, leaves you feeling more 798 00:37:31,113 --> 00:37:32,693 prepared to execute that flight? 799 00:37:33,153 --> 00:37:37,653 And so, so there's a lot of… The devil's in the details with the EFB, and 800 00:37:37,653 --> 00:37:43,063 I think without some best practices or guiding principles or a little bit of, I 801 00:37:43,063 --> 00:37:47,693 don't wanna say oversight 'cause I'm not looking for regulatory oversight, but just 802 00:37:48,173 --> 00:37:52,513 gui- I don't know, some, some guidance there, I think people can get lost. 803 00:37:52,808 --> 00:37:54,568 Use with prudence right 804 00:37:54,803 --> 00:37:55,173 right. 805 00:37:55,203 --> 00:37:59,413 And have -- and, and even for CFIs, 'cause I think like, you know, this is something 806 00:37:59,413 --> 00:38:01,263 I think we're gonna start to do more of. 807 00:38:01,313 --> 00:38:04,143 Like, this is how we would use the EFB. 808 00:38:04,153 --> 00:38:08,173 This is when… Like, if you look at our syllabus, we don't bring the EFB in until 809 00:38:08,173 --> 00:38:11,593 I think it's the third cross-country, and then we transition to the EFB. 810 00:38:12,096 --> 00:38:12,436 Cool 811 00:38:12,823 --> 00:38:13,013 Yeah 812 00:38:13,356 --> 00:38:19,066 here's a little um example Um first time I flew into Oshkosh myself I 813 00:38:19,076 --> 00:38:25,116 flew a 182 from here in Arizona to to Oshkosh It was 2010 I wanna say 814 00:38:25,209 --> 00:38:25,479 Mm-hmm. 815 00:38:25,586 --> 00:38:33,376 And um while um ForeFlight existed at that point it was pretty primitive right 816 00:38:34,566 --> 00:38:39,616 um certainly didn't have ADSB or anything like that That didn't even exist yet 817 00:38:39,841 --> 00:38:40,211 Right 818 00:38:40,816 --> 00:38:46,686 and so we used our eyeballs and we you know for traffic I was with a nonpilot 819 00:38:46,686 --> 00:38:52,806 friend um did did that thing I'm I haven't flown into Oshkosh in over a 820 00:38:52,806 --> 00:38:54,616 decade I'm probably gonna do it this year 821 00:38:54,881 --> 00:38:55,211 Nice 822 00:38:55,226 --> 00:38:58,966 like I I don't wanna see the traffic I might turn the traffic off because 823 00:38:59,236 --> 00:39:03,036 the I look at it when I'm on the ground and I go That that makes me sweat 824 00:39:03,193 --> 00:39:03,663 Yeah 825 00:39:03,676 --> 00:39:06,426 wanna see hundreds of airplanes around me I wanna see 826 00:39:06,777 --> 00:39:07,177 Yeah 827 00:39:07,876 --> 00:39:10,726 in the haze that is a problem to me 828 00:39:10,873 --> 00:39:11,543 Yeah. 829 00:39:11,543 --> 00:39:13,703 Yeah, no, that's a, that's a really wise idea. 830 00:39:13,703 --> 00:39:17,113 That, you know, it's like when ATC says you have traffic at 2 o'clock 831 00:39:17,113 --> 00:39:18,973 six miles moving away from you. 832 00:39:19,003 --> 00:39:19,433 It's like, 833 00:39:19,718 --> 00:39:20,798 And your head looks down 834 00:39:21,023 --> 00:39:21,873 yeah, and it's like, what? 835 00:39:22,178 --> 00:39:22,528 that's ba 836 00:39:23,043 --> 00:39:23,073 Right? 837 00:39:23,263 --> 00:39:24,753 But it's like, why did you tell me that? 838 00:39:24,763 --> 00:39:26,183 That's in my brain now, right? 839 00:39:26,423 --> 00:39:28,623 He's six miles away and not converging. 840 00:39:28,938 --> 00:39:29,658 yeah I don't need to 841 00:39:29,663 --> 00:39:29,723 just le- 842 00:39:29,818 --> 00:39:30,088 that 843 00:39:30,093 --> 00:39:30,863 I don't need to know. 844 00:39:30,893 --> 00:39:31,183 Yeah. 845 00:39:32,113 --> 00:39:32,653 No, that's… 846 00:39:32,828 --> 00:39:33,188 All right 847 00:39:33,233 --> 00:39:37,103 There's, something to that and, um, I tell a story about, you know, 848 00:39:37,103 --> 00:39:42,183 this is before EFBs, but when we all switched to the G1000s, I flew into 849 00:39:42,183 --> 00:39:45,913 Oshkosh in a Cirrus, and I was late getting to where I wanted to be. 850 00:39:45,913 --> 00:39:49,743 I left Chicago and flew up to Oshkosh, and at that point, it was, like, the fifth 851 00:39:49,743 --> 00:39:51,473 or sixth time I'd ever flown up there. 852 00:39:52,003 --> 00:39:56,793 But that was the time that I came this close to busting a Class Delta airspace. 853 00:39:56,813 --> 00:40:01,293 It wasn't when I did all the paper planning and all the years before that. 854 00:40:01,303 --> 00:40:06,433 It was the first time I had a G1000 and a fancy autopilot, 'cause I just put 855 00:40:06,433 --> 00:40:09,423 that thing on autopilot, put the pedal down, and started reviewing the NOTAM. 856 00:40:09,583 --> 00:40:11,643 I didn't, I didn't do 857 00:40:11,828 --> 00:40:12,488 checked out 858 00:40:12,673 --> 00:40:15,263 mentally checked out from the flying part, correct. 859 00:40:15,343 --> 00:40:16,443 It's a, it's a risk. 860 00:40:16,453 --> 00:40:18,073 It's a, you know, it's a danger 861 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,100 Super interesting Yeah that's really good insight All right I know we 862 00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:25,300 gotta hurry along here but I I've got a big question for you here 863 00:40:25,335 --> 00:40:25,625 Sure 864 00:40:25,630 --> 00:40:30,650 It has to do with technology Um and it and it really has to do with um 865 00:40:31,500 --> 00:40:35,360 know something that's really new for humanity right now and that's 866 00:40:35,420 --> 00:40:38,520 uh AI or large uh language models 867 00:40:40,650 --> 00:40:46,410 so you've built this like really principled and structured way of training 868 00:40:46,420 --> 00:40:52,130 You've articulated it in in the Finer Points app You're sharing it with people 869 00:40:52,130 --> 00:40:55,930 You're you're letting people learn from your experience You've got all of 870 00:40:55,930 --> 00:41:02,680 this stuff in there And then meanwhile anybody can ask know ChatGPT or Claude 871 00:41:02,730 --> 00:41:06,880 anything they want and they will get something that sounds like an answer 872 00:41:07,033 --> 00:41:07,043 Mm-hmm. 873 00:41:07,460 --> 00:41:12,530 So what's your take on AI in the training process Is it just like the 874 00:41:12,530 --> 00:41:16,410 EFBs and the other technologies we have to be careful Do you see it as a huge 875 00:41:16,420 --> 00:41:21,660 boon or are you mostly worried about where it may take aviation education 876 00:41:22,873 --> 00:41:27,693 Well, I don't, I don't worry too much about it because it's not my nature. 877 00:41:27,963 --> 00:41:31,573 Um, I do find a lot… Like, so one of the things I'm most proud 878 00:41:31,573 --> 00:41:35,363 of is the content team that we've built around our product, our app. 879 00:41:35,363 --> 00:41:37,713 I mean, we've got airline check pilots in there. 880 00:41:37,713 --> 00:41:39,603 We've got former military pilots. 881 00:41:39,603 --> 00:41:42,663 We've got, I mean, everybody is an active flight instructor. 882 00:41:43,323 --> 00:41:48,933 Um, it's a- about seven extra CFIs in addition to me that are writing 883 00:41:48,933 --> 00:41:52,033 those questions, writing those answers, finding the resources. 884 00:41:52,723 --> 00:41:55,603 And, um, sometimes I even tell my team, I think we should be 885 00:41:55,603 --> 00:41:58,683 advertising that we're powered by human intelligence just because the, you 886 00:41:58,764 --> 00:41:59,374 I love it 887 00:41:59,643 --> 00:42:00,393 you know, just 'cause 888 00:42:00,424 --> 00:42:00,794 that 889 00:42:01,243 --> 00:42:05,993 in our team alone, there's like 100,000 hours of collective experience, you know? 890 00:42:06,330 --> 00:42:06,660 Yep 891 00:42:06,803 --> 00:42:09,693 And, these people show up at the office hours every Friday. 892 00:42:09,693 --> 00:42:12,853 So, you know, students that come into our office hours, they've got 893 00:42:12,863 --> 00:42:18,123 me and Harry who's, you know 25000 hours senior airline check guy. 894 00:42:18,133 --> 00:42:20,373 You know, it's like we're… There's a lot of 895 00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:23,690 HI I I'm telling you Jason that's the best thing I've heard all day 896 00:42:23,705 --> 00:42:24,415 Yeah, that's great. 897 00:42:24,690 --> 00:42:25,980 intelligence That's awesome 898 00:42:27,545 --> 00:42:30,065 Yeah, I mean, because-- So here's the thing. 899 00:42:30,075 --> 00:42:33,965 I lo- I, I think AI is very interesting, and I use it for a lot of things, mostly 900 00:42:33,965 --> 00:42:39,885 writing web copy, you know and um, what else do I… Polishing my emails 901 00:42:39,895 --> 00:42:41,425 so I sound like I went to high school. 902 00:42:41,455 --> 00:42:42,555 You know, stuff like that, right? 903 00:42:42,555 --> 00:42:44,495 Like, just very basic little things. 904 00:42:45,175 --> 00:42:48,515 But if you ask AI, I mean, this is certainly the way it is now, to do 905 00:42:48,515 --> 00:42:51,675 anything that matters, like if you say, "Here's my picture, here's my 906 00:42:51,675 --> 00:42:56,645 bio, now build me a website," and look at it, I mean, it gets you, 907 00:42:56,645 --> 00:42:58,745 like, 70% of the way there maybe. 908 00:42:58,985 --> 00:43:00,145 You know, it's not done. 909 00:43:00,155 --> 00:43:01,115 It's not good. 910 00:43:01,855 --> 00:43:05,775 And so for me, I just don't understand people that would accept… I- if, 911 00:43:05,785 --> 00:43:09,215 if there are people out there that are accepting that in flying, knowing 912 00:43:09,225 --> 00:43:14,015 that this isn't perfect, but it's probably pretty good or good enough, 913 00:43:14,406 --> 00:43:15,456 Interesting way to look at it 914 00:43:15,525 --> 00:43:17,085 we're just, like, different kind of pilots. 915 00:43:17,085 --> 00:43:20,205 Like, the plane will probably not crash too if you fly it 916 00:43:20,205 --> 00:43:21,505 kinda good enough, you know? 917 00:43:21,505 --> 00:43:22,805 It's like, I don't even know. 918 00:43:23,155 --> 00:43:24,465 I don't really… I don't know. 919 00:43:24,465 --> 00:43:25,805 It's, it's not me. 920 00:43:25,805 --> 00:43:31,265 So it may come to a place where AI is phenomenal and, uh, can, can 921 00:43:31,265 --> 00:43:36,245 replicate what a regular instructor or somebody like me does, but I don't 922 00:43:36,245 --> 00:43:37,925 see that day too close, you know? 923 00:43:37,945 --> 00:43:38,575 I really don't. 924 00:43:39,095 --> 00:43:40,405 Um, I think it's gonna be a minute. 925 00:43:40,405 --> 00:43:43,175 I think AI's really impressive and flashy for certain things. 926 00:43:43,855 --> 00:43:47,365 I think probably the best use of it that I've seen from anybody is there 927 00:43:47,365 --> 00:43:53,995 was a young company that was using AI to analyze audio tracks so that if you 928 00:43:53,995 --> 00:43:58,835 just recorded your flight, when you come back, it would flag the learning moments. 929 00:43:58,835 --> 00:44:04,225 It would scan the audio and say, "Hey, at minute 7:63 is when he showed 930 00:44:04,225 --> 00:44:05,755 you how to use the auto squelch. 931 00:44:05,755 --> 00:44:09,915 Do you wanna play that moment?" You know, something like that. 932 00:44:10,432 --> 00:44:11,032 yeah Yeah. 933 00:44:11,165 --> 00:44:11,585 You know- 934 00:44:11,872 --> 00:44:16,522 indexing your flights a little bit so you can go back and reinforce, which is 935 00:44:16,522 --> 00:44:21,602 something I love about your Finer Points, by the way, is timing out of knowledge. 936 00:44:21,632 --> 00:44:21,982 And, 937 00:44:22,649 --> 00:44:23,099 Yeah. 938 00:44:23,099 --> 00:44:23,329 Yeah 939 00:44:23,329 --> 00:44:23,819 yeah 940 00:44:23,962 --> 00:44:25,772 what you call it, but it's, it's, uh, 941 00:44:26,019 --> 00:44:26,969 Knowledge recall. 942 00:44:27,009 --> 00:44:27,349 Yeah. 943 00:44:27,522 --> 00:44:28,442 Yes, recall. 944 00:44:28,519 --> 00:44:28,889 Yeah. 945 00:44:29,342 --> 00:44:30,732 I… See, I couldn't remember. 946 00:44:30,732 --> 00:44:31,902 I need to do knowledge 947 00:44:32,259 --> 00:44:32,989 More recall. 948 00:44:33,849 --> 00:44:34,479 Yeah, it's funny. 949 00:44:34,479 --> 00:44:35,919 We're actually-- Thank you. 950 00:44:35,919 --> 00:44:37,669 Yeah, we're, we're evolving that too. 951 00:44:37,669 --> 00:44:41,579 I'm trying to really get to a place where, you know, our ultimate goal for the app 952 00:44:41,579 --> 00:44:45,809 is I always, and I say this to the team a lot, as soon as we are consistently making 953 00:44:45,809 --> 00:44:49,939 people feel safer and more confident for having used it, we're golden. 954 00:44:49,949 --> 00:44:53,699 Like, that's our whole, like, I want people to really feel as though this 955 00:44:53,699 --> 00:44:55,519 app makes me safer and, and better. 956 00:44:56,289 --> 00:44:58,499 Um, so different ways to do that. 957 00:44:58,509 --> 00:44:59,789 Knowledge recall is one of them. 958 00:45:00,814 --> 00:45:00,984 Yeah. 959 00:45:01,124 --> 00:45:01,474 Cool 960 00:45:01,519 --> 00:45:04,749 but you know, so I think that people-- Like there was a great AI, one of 961 00:45:04,749 --> 00:45:08,009 the AI founders was on a podcast recently, not talking about flying, 962 00:45:08,009 --> 00:45:10,979 of course, but just talking about large language learning models. 963 00:45:11,689 --> 00:45:16,039 And he said something like, "People have it wrong. People think that AI 964 00:45:16,039 --> 00:45:21,829 is gonna take your job, but that's not exactly true. Your neighbor who knows 965 00:45:21,839 --> 00:45:23,679 how to use AI is gonna take your job." 966 00:45:24,596 --> 00:45:24,856 Right 967 00:45:25,449 --> 00:45:27,349 so, so it's like this marriage. 968 00:45:27,349 --> 00:45:30,259 So like sometimes when I see a young company doing something like that 969 00:45:30,259 --> 00:45:33,999 where it's like, okay, I'm gonna harness this and I'm gonna deploy 970 00:45:33,999 --> 00:45:38,489 it in a very specific way that I think will help pilots, that's great. 971 00:45:38,999 --> 00:45:42,839 But people out there that think Chat DPE or something is gonna get 972 00:45:42,839 --> 00:45:45,909 them through an oral, I think are in for a rude awakening, you know? 973 00:45:46,984 --> 00:45:47,384 Yep. 974 00:45:47,644 --> 00:45:48,284 All right, cool. 975 00:45:48,674 --> 00:45:51,214 All right, well let's start to wrap it up here, but I gotta ask 976 00:45:51,214 --> 00:45:54,204 you about your adventure training. 977 00:45:54,561 --> 00:45:54,871 Sure 978 00:45:54,974 --> 00:45:59,184 it's super cool, and I wanna get you, give you a chance to kinda talk about that 979 00:45:59,321 --> 00:45:59,871 Yeah 980 00:45:59,964 --> 00:46:02,954 that compares and contrasts with this 981 00:46:03,494 --> 00:46:04,314 technological 982 00:46:04,314 --> 00:46:10,034 learning where you're going out, getting your hands dirty, um, kinda learning how 983 00:46:10,034 --> 00:46:12,014 to fly in, in different environments. 984 00:46:12,024 --> 00:46:14,144 Can you talk a little bit about that and why you do it? 985 00:46:14,595 --> 00:46:15,375 Yeah, of course. 986 00:46:15,375 --> 00:46:18,575 I think it's, first of all, I do it 'cause it's, it's just a labor of love. 987 00:46:18,575 --> 00:46:20,715 I just think it's so darn cool really to 988 00:46:20,806 --> 00:46:21,156 fun, 989 00:46:21,395 --> 00:46:22,185 It's fun, yeah. 990 00:46:22,185 --> 00:46:26,395 And, um, when I was designing those courses, I was doing it with Howard 991 00:46:26,405 --> 00:46:31,535 Donner, who is, you know, his roots are as a river guide, and he's a medical doctor 992 00:46:31,535 --> 00:46:36,975 who, um, his expertise is wilderness medicine, which is a really unusual 993 00:46:37,075 --> 00:46:38,925 n- corner of the medical industry. 994 00:46:38,925 --> 00:46:43,805 So other doctors, surgeons, or whomever else can take continuing medical 995 00:46:43,835 --> 00:46:47,735 education credits with somebody like Howard, and they can go camp on a 996 00:46:47,735 --> 00:46:51,115 river system for a week and learn how to make s- you know, splints out of 997 00:46:51,115 --> 00:46:55,655 stilts or tie tourniquets or whatever the continuing medical education is. 998 00:46:56,305 --> 00:46:57,435 Um, and that's his world. 999 00:46:57,935 --> 00:47:03,385 And I've always had a huge passion for survival and, um, just understanding. 1000 00:47:03,385 --> 00:47:05,065 You know, I think we're all this way, pilots. 1001 00:47:05,075 --> 00:47:08,205 We're, we're w- cautious adventurers. 1002 00:47:08,205 --> 00:47:12,005 You know, like, we, we want the adventure, but the risk mitigation 1003 00:47:12,015 --> 00:47:15,635 of the adventure is almost as much fun as the adventure itself. 1004 00:47:15,655 --> 00:47:17,715 You know, we're not like BASE jumpers. 1005 00:47:17,725 --> 00:47:20,705 We're not like adrenaline junkies exactly, or most of us aren't. 1006 00:47:21,395 --> 00:47:26,035 Instead, we're trying to, like, take on this challenge and manage all the 1007 00:47:26,035 --> 00:47:31,065 possible risks and execute it saf- safely with precision at the right time. 1008 00:47:31,065 --> 00:47:33,285 You know, it's a, it's a slightly different kind of adventuring. 1009 00:47:34,125 --> 00:47:36,855 Um, but our ultimate goal is to return, right? 1010 00:47:36,855 --> 00:47:39,785 That's the whole thing is like a successful flight is one you 1011 00:47:39,815 --> 00:47:41,295 go home to your family after. 1012 00:47:42,215 --> 00:47:45,525 That's, that's the way we measure that, and that's why we measure things in hours. 1013 00:47:45,525 --> 00:47:47,895 How many times have you done this safely and come home? 1014 00:47:48,155 --> 00:47:50,325 Okay, you've done it a lot of times, you must be good. 1015 00:47:51,105 --> 00:47:55,515 Um, and so contingency planning, risk management is what those trips 1016 00:47:55,515 --> 00:47:57,715 are all about, is going into, um… 1017 00:47:57,725 --> 00:47:59,885 We do sometimes as many as four trips a year. 1018 00:47:59,885 --> 00:48:03,205 This year we're doing two, just the mountains and the canyons. 1019 00:48:03,955 --> 00:48:05,725 But we'll go out into the environment. 1020 00:48:06,365 --> 00:48:10,815 Uh, the mountain training is high density altitudes and mountain passes. 1021 00:48:10,815 --> 00:48:15,255 But, um, half the time we're on the ground, everybody gets a survival vest, 1022 00:48:15,255 --> 00:48:18,115 and we go through all the gear in the vest, and we talk through how to think 1023 00:48:18,125 --> 00:48:22,345 about contingency planning, how to think about having to land the airplane if 1024 00:48:22,345 --> 00:48:26,305 your engine quits, what you're gonna do for the next 24 hours while you're 1025 00:48:26,305 --> 00:48:30,085 stuck in the wilderness, how will you survive injuries, how will you get found. 1026 00:48:30,865 --> 00:48:34,585 Um, and it's funny, we used to call it adventure training, but one year, 1027 00:48:34,615 --> 00:48:36,995 um, a kid came with, with his dad. 1028 00:48:36,995 --> 00:48:39,795 He was about a six-year-old kid, and he, he looked around, he saw us all 1029 00:48:39,795 --> 00:48:44,295 doing our signal mirrors, and he saw the food cooking and the planes camped out, 1030 00:48:44,295 --> 00:48:47,755 and he said, "Oh, I get it." He said, "This is airplane camp for adults." 1031 00:48:48,398 --> 00:48:48,758 Yeah. 1032 00:48:48,845 --> 00:48:52,985 And I said, I was like, "That's it, kid. Airplane camp for adults." So ever since 1033 00:48:52,985 --> 00:48:54,525 then, we've called it airplane camp. 1034 00:48:54,575 --> 00:48:55,715 But yeah, that's what we do. 1035 00:48:56,305 --> 00:48:56,495 Yeah. 1036 00:48:56,594 --> 00:48:57,354 Uh, very cool. 1037 00:48:58,014 --> 00:48:58,474 All right. 1038 00:48:58,674 --> 00:49:02,904 Well, is, is there, um, anything I should have asked you about that I didn't? 1039 00:49:03,649 --> 00:49:06,099 No, but it's, uh, been a lot of fun talking to you, Bill, 1040 00:49:06,099 --> 00:49:07,169 and thanks for having me. 1041 00:49:07,169 --> 00:49:08,869 If, if you wanna do this again, just let me know. 1042 00:49:08,869 --> 00:49:11,399 If you think of, uh, anything else that we didn't cover, I'm 1043 00:49:11,419 --> 00:49:12,709 always happy to join you again 1044 00:49:13,296 --> 00:49:13,716 Awesome. 1045 00:49:13,776 --> 00:49:14,296 It'll be fun. 1046 00:49:14,296 --> 00:49:16,016 We gotta dive into that EFB thing. 1047 00:49:16,016 --> 00:49:16,656 I can't wait. 1048 00:49:16,697 --> 00:49:19,577 Yeah, that could be a whole, we just, that's the whole topic of that show. 1049 00:49:20,416 --> 00:49:21,186 Exactly. 1050 00:49:21,896 --> 00:49:24,936 right, so where's the best place to, to find you then? 1051 00:49:24,936 --> 00:49:26,926 See if you can remember some URLs here 1052 00:49:27,097 --> 00:49:27,627 Yeah, sure. 1053 00:49:27,627 --> 00:49:31,437 Well, just the, the main website is learnthefinerpoints.com. 1054 00:49:31,977 --> 00:49:36,137 Um, and then on YouTube, in the App Store, we're The Finer Points 1055 00:49:36,157 --> 00:49:37,867 or in the App Store, Groundschool. 1056 00:49:37,867 --> 00:49:41,107 But I think if you just come to our main website, learnthefinerpoints.com, 1057 00:49:41,407 --> 00:49:42,907 that's, that's a good way to go 1058 00:49:44,090 --> 00:49:44,520 Awesome. 1059 00:49:44,790 --> 00:49:46,190 Jason, this has been super fun. 1060 00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:48,700 Appreciate you taking the time, and I hope we'll connect soon 1061 00:49:48,793 --> 00:49:49,603 Yeah, my pleasure. 1062 00:49:49,603 --> 00:49:51,333 Thanks for having me, and, uh, I'd love that. 1063 00:49:52,153 --> 00:49:52,353 Thanks again 1064 00:49:52,450 --> 00:49:52,790 Awesome