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I used to be a corporate lawyer.

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I worked for Microsoft.

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I worked for Walmart.

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I worked for General Electric.

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Part of my job was being political.

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I had to be of a lobbyist, right?

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There was a part of my job where
I had to interact with government,

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00:00:13,430 --> 00:00:17,450
schmooze with government, leverage
government, and play this game.

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00:00:17,790 --> 00:00:21,150
And it's in games like that you
learn, like, companies aren't...

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scary and you learn how to like
Where the pain points and the

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pressure points are with Amazon.

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If you look at it or Amazon is,
you know, we're, we're, you know,

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we represent a lot of Amazon.

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So there's actually a whole nonprofit
too, that I created to do Amazon for

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e commerce, I should say advocacy, but
a lot of it's focused around Amazon,

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especially with the big dog in the room.

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And.

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It's just about knowing kind of where
the Achilles heel is right and with

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big companies like Amazon, you know,
when you're under antitrust scrutiny,

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that's that's a great opportunity for
us as sellers and to basically kind

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of, you know, you want to restore the
balance of power between, you know, the

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individual seller and Amazon leveraging
government is a way to do that.

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Welcome to the eCommerce podcast
with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

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Now the eCommerce podcast is all
about helping you deliver eCommerce.

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Wow.

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And to help us do just that today,
I'm chatting with Paul Rafelson

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from Seller basics about mastering
regulations for e commerce success.

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Oh, yes.

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But before Paul and I dive into our
conversation, let me share with you a

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podcast pick a previous podcast episode
that I think you're going to enjoy.

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Check out.

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Should you sell on multiple online
marketplaces with Jesse Rag.

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And if that's not wedded,
you whistling enough.

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Try how to make the most of your EU
expansion strategy with Andy Hooper.

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Both great guys, actually both
great conversations, both jampacked

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full of top tips, uh, and you can
access our podcast picks and our

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entire podcast archive for free on
our website, eCommerce podcast.net.

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Plus, if you're there, Why not sign
up to the newsletter if you haven't

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00:02:10,699 --> 00:02:16,469
done so already and we'll send you our
links to the podcast pick, uh, from

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today's show straight to your inbox.

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I can see Paul, if you're watching
on screen, he's pointing to the

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screen, absolutely, totally.

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Uh, so make sure you do that.

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sign up

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Ha

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for the newsletter.

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I was giving the point,

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Yeah, absolutely.

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You are.

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That's awesome.

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you know.

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Now, are you struggling to
grow your e commerce business?

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Do you feel like you're constantly
spinning your wheels, trying to

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figure out what to focus on next?

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Well, we've been there and I
know how frustrating that can be.

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can be.

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And that's why I love being
a part of eCommerce Cohort.

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eCommerce Cohort helps eCommerce
businesses like yours deliver

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an exceptional customer
experience that drives results.

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And to help you get started,
let me tell you about a free

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resource called eCommerce Cycles.

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It's a mini course, which walks
you through my proven framework for

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building a successful online business.

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I'm going to show you the Steps that
I personally take in my own e commerce

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companies, uh, and so you can see
exactly how to put these concepts

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into practice in your own business.

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And the good news, this whole
mini course is totally free.

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You don't even need an email.

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So check it out.

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I know, right?

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EcommerceCycles.

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Okay.

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com.

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Paul, I'm going to get you back.

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You should come help
me do these intros more

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You shouldn't have told me that
they're gonna see me when I, when you

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do I was, I I just, I can't help it.

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Absolutely.

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So head over to ecommercecycles.

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com to access our free
training and get started.

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So, if you're watching the video,
you have undoubtedly seen Paul point

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fingers, make faces, uh, and join, and
if you're on the audio version, you've

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heard him in the background, no doubt.

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Uh, Paul is a seasoned attorney,
uh, has spent over half a decade,

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oh no, over a decade and a half, uh,
untangling complex corporate tax, uh,

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intellectual property and M& A matters.

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I mean, that just sounds like a fun life.

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Just drill a hole in my head, right?

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I mean, it's just, like, Paul has
spent 15 years of his life being sad.

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You know?

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No,

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No, I'm sure not, not at all.

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Uh, he's a recognized authority
in the e commerce sphere is often

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featured in the new showing insights
in Amazon and e commerce issues.

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And moreover, his expertise shines.

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through when he has become the most
frequently cited source during the U.

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S.

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Government's probe into Amazon
business practices related

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to third party merchants.

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The most cited source.

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That's a heck of an accolade.

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Uh, Paul, it's great to
have you on the show, man.

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yeah.

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What was that all about?

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I was like doing my like, yeah.

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It was like, you know,
it was like, uh, a ninja.

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It was like a ninja dance or

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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How did you become the most cited source?

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What was what?

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What went on there?

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Well, I was the second most sighted source
and I said, guys, we got on the draft.

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I said, we, I'm guys.

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I'm like, I'm too away.

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Come on.

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So I, no, I mean, You know, I, I, I, I
play e commerce, you know, I came into

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this game, there's a whole backstory which
we can get into if you want later, but

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like, I used to be a corporate lawyer.

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I worked for Microsoft.

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I worked for Walmart.

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I worked for General Electric.

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Part of my job was being political.

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I had to be of a lobbyist, right?

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There was a part of my job where
I had to interact with government,

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schmooze with government, leverage
government, and play this game.

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And it's in games like that you
learn, like, companies aren't...

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scary and you learn how to like
Where the pain points and the

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pressure points are with Amazon.

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If you look at it or Amazon is,
you know, we're, we're, you know,

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we represent a lot of Amazon.

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So there's actually a whole nonprofit
too, that I created to do Amazon for

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e commerce, I should say advocacy, but
a lot of it's focused around Amazon,

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especially with the big dog in the room.

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And.

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It's just about knowing kind of where
the Achilles heel is right and with

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big companies like Amazon, you know,
when you're under antitrust scrutiny,

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that's that's a great opportunity for
us as sellers and to basically kind

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of, you know, you want to restore the
balance of power between, you know, the

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individual seller and Amazon leveraging
government is a way to do that.

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So we, um, You know, basically through
this nonprofit that I created called the

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online merchant skill, which is sort of
a trade association for Amazon sellers.

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This is something I do with my
volunteer time when I have it.

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Um, we just basically wrote a really, we
took all the kind of the stories we had

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heard over the years from our clients
and members and basically compiled it.

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to a submission, which
you can go and read.

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If you go to the subcommittee
website, you can read online

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merchant school submission.

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And they really liked what we had to say.

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They really appreciated the candid detail.

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And then, so they cited it quite a lot.

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And then, um, when they were even passing
antitrust legislate, they're trying

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to pass this antitrust legislation a
couple of years ago, they were even

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reading our emails on, it was weird.

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I was watching TV and I'm, we're
seeing, you know, Congresswoman

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Jayapal reading our emails on TV.

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It's So it's, um, You know,
it's part of what I do, though.

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It's just, it's just kind of how we have
always gone about Dealing with Amazon

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and dealing with e commerce, you know,
you know, just it's this new body of

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law And so you've got a lot of confusion
You've got one power player that's

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kind And we've just kind of taken this
opportunity to sort of try to bring the

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balance of power back a little bit and,
and, show people the way to do that.

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Cause there, there is a way,

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I was going say, has it worked?

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I mean, how do you, cause it's, it's
always been, I've always sort of Amazon.

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I, the analogy is always for me
has been David and Goliath, right?

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I mean, you've got this
monster of a thing.

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Um, so what sort of things have you
done that's brought the power back?

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I'm kind of curious about that.

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Well, we could do so much more.

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So in a way, like answer is, I'm
still like disappointed that we

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haven't figured out a way to like
come together as an e commerce.

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Community in a, in a single
form and fashion really just own

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the space as we were, we were
kind of going down that road.

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But no, I mean, we, we leverage
government to get the balance of power.

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I mean, we look at Amazon.

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I don't look at it as David Goliath.

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I don't look at it as more like it's,
it's sort of a combination of like, um.

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It's like the Achilles analogy.

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Like you've just got to know where
it hurts big companies, big matrix

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organizations like Amazon, they're not,
you know, they don't run it secret.

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Everything is, is, is out in the open.

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Um, you, you know what their pain
points are, you know, where they,

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you know, they don't want, you know,
Congress calling them every day,

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members of Congress saying, you know,
what did you do to my constituents?

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So what we've done a lot of times,
like what I've done with, um, like

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in my suspension practice, my, you
know, for my, for my clients who can

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get their accounts shut down in many
cases, what I do is I would call their

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Congress people up if I couldn't get
through, like it was a good case.

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And we've tried everything.

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We've tried every possible mode of
appeal, and we're not getting anywhere

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because system is just stupid.

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Which you know it is, right?

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The appeal system is sometimes,
it's just, it's just chaotic.

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It's like you're talking to a brick
wall, or actually worse, because at least

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brick walls just don't say anything.

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These things, these things regurgitate.

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It's like, uh, um, We've been able to
sort of say, hey, look, Congressman so

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and so I I'm representing your constituent
who is building a multimillion dollar

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business, hiring X number of people
and everything was going great until

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they suddenly got shut down by Amazon.

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Right.

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And we've tried to explain Amazon what
the problem is and why it should be fixed.

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And, and, you know, but we just can't
get through to reasonable people.

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Perhaps you can.

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Now, when Amazon gets a call from
Congress or congressional staff.

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That's a whole different, it goes to
a whole different department, right?

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And you do that enough times, you
start to develop a relationship with

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Amazon on your own, that's kind of
like, okay, you know, maybe they'd

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just rather hear from us, because
they're tired of hearing from Congress.

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Other things we've done, like the 72
hour suspension rule, I know it's not a

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huge win, but one of the things I wanted
to do during anti drug scrutiny was

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I wanted to push for Legislation that
would have been a seller Bill of Rights.

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But again, we just don't
have that unity of the seller

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community to really build that.

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But the reason I want to do this
because we actually did something

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like that in California when
we lobby to change the tax law.

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Like, I don't know if you remember,
but like Amazon years ago, they

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told you it was your responsibility
to open sales taxes in the U.

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S.

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basically your V.

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A.

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T.

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Transaction tax.

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We changed that.

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I mean, we actually don't think it was
ever anyone's responsibility but Amazon's,

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but just to, just to remove the doubt,
we went and lobbied to change those laws.

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Um, and then through that, we actually
changed the laws in California to mirror,

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um, some laws that Europe had been, uh,
basically working on to protect sellers

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and provide sellers with reasons for, you
know, why their account was shut down.

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And that led to the 72
hour suspension notice.

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So, yeah, I mean, we, we, we cracked
the, we cracked through now and again.

232
00:11:15,354 --> 00:11:17,104
I mean, we have our ways and

233
00:11:17,149 --> 00:11:17,519
Yeah.

234
00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:17,749
Yeah.

235
00:11:18,314 --> 00:11:19,744
there's always a way we'll fight.

236
00:11:19,744 --> 00:11:23,284
I mean, it's, it's just, it's, it's,
you know, there's, there's no limit on

237
00:11:23,284 --> 00:11:26,254
our imagination in terms of how we'll,
we'll, we'll get through somehow.

238
00:11:27,374 --> 00:11:29,794
and I think that's what we've done
differently is we just think, you

239
00:11:29,794 --> 00:11:33,384
know, there's, there's a right way to
go about these things, you know, you

240
00:11:33,384 --> 00:11:36,754
don't want to be like bribing people
or doing anything shady,, like, but

241
00:11:36,774 --> 00:11:40,944
there is a way to get, there is a way
to get known influence within Amazon

242
00:11:40,944 --> 00:11:42,564
and just have to not play that game.

243
00:11:42,564 --> 00:11:46,034
And I think it's, I had the benefit
of growing up in that corporate

244
00:11:46,034 --> 00:11:48,944
environment where that's what we
do, you know, it was a part of my

245
00:11:49,619 --> 00:11:50,079
really cool.

246
00:11:50,164 --> 00:11:51,774
of my job, but it was a part of it.

247
00:11:52,009 --> 00:11:53,589
Yeah, that sounds really good.

248
00:11:53,929 --> 00:11:57,999
I mean, it sounds, I mean, it sounds
interesting, you know, taking, uh,

249
00:11:58,249 --> 00:11:59,849
taking this, these sort of big things on.

250
00:12:00,089 --> 00:12:03,209
For those that don't know, listening
to the show, explain what the

251
00:12:03,209 --> 00:12:06,089
72 hour suspension rule was, or

252
00:12:06,329 --> 00:12:09,859
it was basically, you know, there'd
be back in the day, like, you know,

253
00:12:09,999 --> 00:12:12,629
you were selling Amazon, you know,
one day you go to sleep at night.

254
00:12:12,629 --> 00:12:15,469
I've been doing great next morning, wake
up your whole account and shut down.

255
00:12:15,469 --> 00:12:16,549
You're locked out of your account.

256
00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:17,639
You don't know what the hell happened.

257
00:12:18,329 --> 00:12:18,719
All right.

258
00:12:19,539 --> 00:12:20,019
Nothing.

259
00:12:20,509 --> 00:12:24,469
Well, now Amazon has to, except for,
I guess, extreme circumstances, they

260
00:12:24,469 --> 00:12:25,829
have to give you a 72 hour warning.

261
00:12:26,579 --> 00:12:29,709
And what it's actually led to,
too, is less suspension of accounts

262
00:12:29,749 --> 00:12:31,309
and now more suspension of ASINs.

263
00:12:31,329 --> 00:12:34,939
So, in some ways, like, what it's done
is it's just changed the nature of

264
00:12:34,940 --> 00:12:38,139
the suspensions, and now we see more,
like, product level suspensions as

265
00:12:38,139 --> 00:12:39,719
opposed full on account suspensions.

266
00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:43,719
But, in a way, that's good, because,
like, you know, it's hard to appeal when

267
00:12:43,719 --> 00:12:47,549
you're locked out of your account because
Amazon has you on a fraud block, for what?

268
00:12:47,579 --> 00:12:48,229
You know, and it's like...

269
00:12:48,789 --> 00:12:52,859
You know, for now and today, that same
issue would be just a mirror, like,

270
00:12:52,869 --> 00:12:55,199
you know, check the box type of appeal.

271
00:12:55,229 --> 00:12:57,389
But I mean, the system was
kind of brutal back then.

272
00:12:57,779 --> 00:13:00,599
So it's made the system a
little bit better for I think.

273
00:13:01,339 --> 00:13:03,549
But, uh, I mean, we
still got a ways to go.

274
00:13:03,869 --> 00:13:06,529
Um, it's still a mess.

275
00:13:06,569 --> 00:13:10,929
But, um, yeah, that's why we have a whole
business around the Amazon account health

276
00:13:10,929 --> 00:13:11,969
and suspension, which I don't love.

277
00:13:12,409 --> 00:13:13,879
But I mean, we have to do it.

278
00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:16,509
but somebody has don't Yeah,

279
00:13:16,894 --> 00:13:20,774
and a lot of people do, but we built
one that's sort of legal driven.

280
00:13:20,784 --> 00:13:23,824
It's got a little bit of a legal thing
because we feel like a lot of these

281
00:13:23,824 --> 00:13:27,364
account suspensions do have some, a
lot of times have legal implications.

282
00:13:27,434 --> 00:13:30,874
And so you need that, but yeah, I
mean, like, I can't wait for somebody

283
00:13:30,874 --> 00:13:32,074
to put me out of business on that one.

284
00:13:32,074 --> 00:13:33,864
Like, I'm not loving, I
don't love that industry.

285
00:13:34,004 --> 00:13:35,554
It's not my favorite part of what we do.

286
00:13:35,744 --> 00:13:37,094
It's important that we do it.

287
00:13:37,574 --> 00:13:38,794
But it's not my favorite thing.

288
00:13:39,734 --> 00:13:41,574
to tell you my favorite thing is
so I don't sound like a hypocrite

289
00:13:41,584 --> 00:13:44,484
too So i'm happy to tell you
what I do love but but that

290
00:13:44,529 --> 00:13:44,919
with that.

291
00:13:45,259 --> 00:13:45,589
What, what,

292
00:13:46,544 --> 00:13:50,434
exits I love as a law firm So
so we have seller basics is our

293
00:13:50,434 --> 00:13:51,624
account health plan sellerbasics.

294
00:13:51,774 --> 00:13:56,094
com And then we also have my law firm,
which is a regular law firm um, and

295
00:13:56,094 --> 00:13:59,324
one of the many law firms that supports
sellerbasics members, but through

296
00:13:59,324 --> 00:14:03,914
my law firm, I you know, we provide
um, Legal services and I love exits.

297
00:14:03,944 --> 00:14:07,864
We did, uh, you know, we had a
big, big, big bubble and valuation

298
00:14:07,914 --> 00:14:10,254
for Amazon sellers in 2020 2021.

299
00:14:10,254 --> 00:14:15,074
We did quarter billion dollars and
exits for clients just in 2021 alone.

300
00:14:15,074 --> 00:14:20,524
We're probably approaching half a billion
overall in total, you know, total tally.

301
00:14:21,109 --> 00:14:24,589
Uh, in terms of dollars, you know, I'm,
I'm only counting dollars in pocket.

302
00:14:24,599 --> 00:14:27,669
I'm not counting, you know, the, the,
the imaginary money that was never

303
00:14:27,669 --> 00:14:31,079
going to be, because we knew that
from the start, you know, these are

304
00:14:31,129 --> 00:14:31,439
Hmm,

305
00:14:32,259 --> 00:14:34,189
unrealistic earnouts and things like that.

306
00:14:34,689 --> 00:14:38,249
Um, but we, we've done a great
job and that's, that's my favorite

307
00:14:38,249 --> 00:14:41,069
thing to do because one, it's like
the only time it's really when your

308
00:14:41,069 --> 00:14:42,389
client's the happiest too, right?

309
00:14:42,589 --> 00:14:43,909
Like your clients can pay a lot of money.

310
00:14:43,909 --> 00:14:45,059
So they're usually very happy.

311
00:14:45,509 --> 00:14:48,347
easiest time to build, it's easiest
time to build be honest Right.

312
00:14:48,629 --> 00:14:49,609
to get your money out of them.

313
00:14:49,609 --> 00:14:50,139
Yeah, yeah,

314
00:14:50,264 --> 00:14:52,464
It's finally, yeah, it's untrue to that.

315
00:14:52,574 --> 00:14:55,224
I mean, being facetious, but it's,
you know, it is like, you know, like,

316
00:14:55,434 --> 00:14:59,204
know, that's the only do is like, you
know, this awful thing happens to me.

317
00:14:59,204 --> 00:15:01,404
Like, yeah, well now I have
to pay us thousands of dollars

318
00:15:01,764 --> 00:15:03,244
to help fix that's never fun.

319
00:15:03,254 --> 00:15:05,664
That's not a fun thing to tell
somebody, but it's like, it's our job.

320
00:15:05,674 --> 00:15:06,544
I mean, we have to do it.

321
00:15:06,544 --> 00:15:08,114
It's our, you know, we
all make a living, right?

322
00:15:08,144 --> 00:15:09,574
Nobody gives their product for free.

323
00:15:10,114 --> 00:15:13,094
It's our service, but it
definitely is more fun.

324
00:15:13,449 --> 00:15:16,739
To say the reason you're paying me
is so that I can help you safely

325
00:15:16,739 --> 00:15:18,749
extract millions and millions
of dollars from your business.

326
00:15:18,859 --> 00:15:20,699
Like that's a much more fun, fun way

327
00:15:21,449 --> 00:15:22,599
sounds more exciting.

328
00:15:23,419 --> 00:15:28,589
so you've obviously been involved then
in a lot of these sort of exits, Paul.

329
00:15:28,829 --> 00:15:32,069
And I'm, I'm kind of curious,
based on your experience, what

330
00:15:32,069 --> 00:15:35,489
are some of the common things that
people sort of fall foul of when?

331
00:15:35,779 --> 00:15:39,299
Uh, when they're sort of exiting their
business, that you as a lawyer kind

332
00:15:39,299 --> 00:15:40,429
of go, man, you should have sorted it.

333
00:15:40,459 --> 00:15:40,749
Why?

334
00:15:40,889 --> 00:15:44,169
This is something you could
have sorted out easily ages ago,

335
00:15:44,189 --> 00:15:45,459
but it's now a bit of a mess.

336
00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:49,249
Yeah, I mean, legal and
compliance is always right.

337
00:15:49,289 --> 00:15:51,769
Like, it's just legal and compliance,
like just getting somebody to look

338
00:15:51,789 --> 00:15:55,309
at your product and saying, you
know, people, I mean, I've had cases

339
00:15:55,309 --> 00:15:58,389
where people have found out midway
through their due diligence that

340
00:15:58,389 --> 00:16:02,349
their product is FDA regulated, like
they didn't know, and that's sad.

341
00:16:02,349 --> 00:16:03,419
And that's sad, right?

342
00:16:03,419 --> 00:16:07,809
Because if, depending FDA regulation
they come under, right, if they're

343
00:16:07,889 --> 00:16:12,449
class one, class two, like it may
take a year for them to get that.

344
00:16:13,064 --> 00:16:14,544
Certification that they need.

345
00:16:14,544 --> 00:16:19,684
And now you're out for the count
or, um, you know, so it is,

346
00:16:19,684 --> 00:16:21,654
it's like just taking inventory.

347
00:16:21,654 --> 00:16:25,694
Like at some point, I mean, I
get like, as a lawyer, people are

348
00:16:25,794 --> 00:16:26,764
don't want to work with lawyers.

349
00:16:26,764 --> 00:16:27,704
They think we're expensive.

350
00:16:27,714 --> 00:16:30,663
They think, you know, hourly rates are
really high and you just want to kind

351
00:16:30,663 --> 00:16:34,394
of like, you know, Google and chat
GPT probably have the answers, but.

352
00:16:35,234 --> 00:16:40,444
They really don't have them yet and
yeah, maybe you got to this point in

353
00:16:40,444 --> 00:16:43,924
your life where okay, you did your
own trademark, good for you, but

354
00:16:44,624 --> 00:16:48,214
you know, if you're trying to build
something of, you know, you're trying

355
00:16:48,214 --> 00:16:50,474
to build real enterprise value, right?

356
00:16:50,504 --> 00:16:53,104
You know, something you can sell and
create generational wealth for yourself.

357
00:16:53,114 --> 00:16:56,284
I mean, start, start doing
the due diligence early.

358
00:16:56,304 --> 00:16:59,204
Do it long you want to sell,
you know, take inventory.

359
00:16:59,614 --> 00:17:02,014
Even simple things like pictures,
you'd be surprised how many

360
00:17:02,014 --> 00:17:03,384
people screw up their pictures.

361
00:17:03,899 --> 00:17:05,489
I mean, it is, it is bad.

362
00:17:05,959 --> 00:17:06,339
Right.

363
00:17:06,719 --> 00:17:07,499
by up?

364
00:17:08,299 --> 00:17:09,919
like, just, they just can't prove title.

365
00:17:09,939 --> 00:17:11,399
So one of the things you have to promise.

366
00:17:11,399 --> 00:17:14,749
So when you sign a contract to sell
your business, you make promises

367
00:17:14,749 --> 00:17:16,069
about the condition of your business.

368
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:17,409
You make these warranties, right?

369
00:17:17,439 --> 00:17:21,429
You're like, I promise I
own all the intellectual

370
00:17:21,429 --> 00:17:22,579
property I use in my business.

371
00:17:23,479 --> 00:17:24,209
Well, do you?

372
00:17:25,399 --> 00:17:27,809
I mean, sometimes the pictures,
like you're like, well, who

373
00:17:27,809 --> 00:17:28,709
did, who made the picture?

374
00:17:28,719 --> 00:17:31,139
Um, somebody I hired on Fiverr.

375
00:17:31,569 --> 00:17:32,849
Oh, where did they get that?

376
00:17:32,909 --> 00:17:36,029
Where did they get all those
background, uh, stock images?

377
00:17:36,289 --> 00:17:36,849
I don't know.

378
00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:38,879
Right.

379
00:17:38,899 --> 00:17:40,379
And that image is on your packaging.

380
00:17:40,399 --> 00:17:40,819
Yeah.

381
00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:41,789
Okay.

382
00:17:42,609 --> 00:17:43,009
Right.

383
00:17:43,029 --> 00:17:46,584
So you can see how, like,
Images alone can be a pain.

384
00:17:46,594 --> 00:17:50,514
Now, images, in my opinion, the good
news about images, if it's, as long

385
00:17:50,514 --> 00:17:53,084
as it's not on your packaging, if it's
like your, your listing photos, I mean,

386
00:17:53,554 --> 00:17:55,614
downside, the downside is limited.

387
00:17:55,624 --> 00:17:59,244
You can say, fine, alright, I really
screwed up my images, I'm sorry, Mr.

388
00:17:59,244 --> 00:18:01,834
Buyer, here's 10, 000,
go take all new photos.

389
00:18:02,274 --> 00:18:02,724
Or whatever it

390
00:18:02,799 --> 00:18:03,199
Yeah.

391
00:18:03,589 --> 00:18:03,889
Yeah.

392
00:18:04,194 --> 00:18:06,049
But, you know, Go do that, right?

393
00:18:06,049 --> 00:18:07,309
Here's a concession, right?

394
00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:09,519
So that way you don't have to take
the risk of copyright infringement.

395
00:18:09,519 --> 00:18:10,369
You can get new photos.

396
00:18:10,379 --> 00:18:11,039
You can be happy.

397
00:18:11,639 --> 00:18:12,519
That's an easy one.

398
00:18:12,609 --> 00:18:16,889
But other things like trademarks, people
understand like people get one trademark.

399
00:18:16,899 --> 00:18:20,999
Most Amazon sellers have one registered
trademark and that's oftentimes incorrect.

400
00:18:21,839 --> 00:18:25,579
Yes, you need one registered trademark
to turn your brand registry on.

401
00:18:25,979 --> 00:18:29,459
But like if you have variations
of products and you give them cute

402
00:18:29,459 --> 00:18:33,489
little names, those cute little
names represent trademark, right?

403
00:18:33,539 --> 00:18:34,839
you're establishing trademark.

404
00:18:35,369 --> 00:18:38,389
Right, under the common law, and you need
to register that trademark, you need to

405
00:18:38,389 --> 00:18:41,649
know it's valid because your, because
your buyer is going to assume that it

406
00:18:41,649 --> 00:18:46,019
is valid, that that name will, right,
that some companies will come around

407
00:18:46,029 --> 00:18:50,489
and say, hey, you're infringing on our,
right, like you can't call it, you can't

408
00:18:50,489 --> 00:18:55,449
call your chocolate flavored lipstick
Count Chocula because we have a cereal

409
00:18:55,919 --> 00:18:59,334
Chocula, you know what I mean, like,
like, You know, like just because it's

410
00:18:59,374 --> 00:19:02,604
not your main trademark, it's still a
sub, I mean, those, those, those sort of

411
00:19:02,654 --> 00:19:04,314
second tier trademarks are so important.

412
00:19:04,394 --> 00:19:08,454
People don't even look at them
and they just, so I mean, just

413
00:19:08,454 --> 00:19:09,794
the basics of stuff like that.

414
00:19:09,824 --> 00:19:13,824
And then, yeah, just the compliance, you
know, like I said, FDA, consumer product

415
00:19:13,824 --> 00:19:16,564
safety, um, California's proposition 65.

416
00:19:16,754 --> 00:19:18,164
I mean, there's all these.

417
00:19:19,024 --> 00:19:21,404
You know, you have to
promise to your buyer you're

418
00:19:21,404 --> 00:19:23,734
complying with the law, right?

419
00:19:23,784 --> 00:19:27,254
So if you don't know or it
turns out you're not I mean that

420
00:19:27,254 --> 00:19:28,624
can that can affect your deal

421
00:19:28,989 --> 00:19:29,349
yeah,

422
00:19:29,644 --> 00:19:34,294
And it could affect it big time Same
with like, you know engaging in review

423
00:19:34,324 --> 00:19:38,244
manipulation Although we surprisingly
have gotten through a lot a lot of

424
00:19:38,244 --> 00:19:41,969
buyers just you know, don't seem to
care about that Um, there was a time

425
00:19:41,969 --> 00:19:43,099
when there was a little bit of paranoia.

426
00:19:43,349 --> 00:19:48,909
Um, but, um, it doesn't mean you should do
it though, but you know, it raises issues,

427
00:19:49,239 --> 00:19:53,089
you know, it raises what ends up happening
is you end up taking all the risks that

428
00:19:53,109 --> 00:19:56,899
so if you're, there is substantial like
review manipulation or breach of Amazon's

429
00:19:57,179 --> 00:20:00,409
terms of service type issues, like what
ends up oftentimes what the buyer will

430
00:20:00,410 --> 00:20:03,889
want is they'll want some sort of like
term that says like they can basically go

431
00:20:03,889 --> 00:20:06,219
after your house and your first born kid.

432
00:20:06,909 --> 00:20:08,689
Uh, if anything ever becomes of it, right?

433
00:20:08,689 --> 00:20:12,349
Like if it turns into something, like
we'll accept the risk now and we'll pay

434
00:20:12,349 --> 00:20:16,849
you, but if this whole thing blows up
because of that, then we want the right to

435
00:20:16,919 --> 00:20:20,019
not only get our money back, but go after
you personally and go after your house,

436
00:20:20,049 --> 00:20:21,499
you know, it's, it's like a whole thing.

437
00:20:22,179 --> 00:20:24,089
So we don't recommend, you know.

438
00:20:24,389 --> 00:20:28,169
Straying too far from the Amazon terms
of service or actually stray it all.

439
00:20:28,379 --> 00:20:32,999
So, but it's, it's interesting, you
know, this process of going through the

440
00:20:32,999 --> 00:20:36,029
exit, it's, um, people are surprised.

441
00:20:36,034 --> 00:20:38,909
They don't really know what, you
know, what it is we do as lawyers

442
00:20:38,909 --> 00:20:42,359
and how it brokers and that,
you know, I kinda say we're kind

443
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,009
like your risk negotiator, right?

444
00:20:44,069 --> 00:20:48,989
We're helping you risk manage this deal
because, you know, a lot of buyers when

445
00:20:48,989 --> 00:20:53,819
they come into, uh, buying a company,
especially an aggregator, private equity

446
00:20:53,819 --> 00:20:57,349
backed aggregator, You know, they really
want you to give them a sure thing.

447
00:20:57,809 --> 00:21:01,179
Like the contracts are really written
by default to say basically like, you're

448
00:21:01,189 --> 00:21:04,019
giving us a sure thing and if anything
wrong, we're going to go after your health

449
00:21:04,049 --> 00:21:07,639
and your kids, you know, it's like, I'm
kidding, you know, but it's just that,

450
00:21:07,679 --> 00:21:08,999
that is the language, like we're going

451
00:21:09,479 --> 00:21:10,899
want to go after you and

452
00:21:11,479 --> 00:21:11,969
scary,

453
00:21:12,429 --> 00:21:13,279
Yeah, well, it is.

454
00:21:13,509 --> 00:21:16,539
I mean, I sold, uh, an ecom
business and not an Amazon

455
00:21:16,539 --> 00:21:17,864
business, but an ecom business.

456
00:21:18,214 --> 00:21:24,744
Uh, two years ago, and it was a fairly
innocuous deal, but the contracts, I

457
00:21:24,744 --> 00:21:28,764
mean, I was, I was very grateful that,
um, a really good friend of mine just

458
00:21:28,764 --> 00:21:30,214
happens to be a contracts barrister.

459
00:21:30,294 --> 00:21:34,694
So, here in the UK, um, and he was
saying, he was asking me all kinds

460
00:21:34,694 --> 00:21:37,664
of questions, like you've talked
about, like, well, Matt, this image

461
00:21:37,664 --> 00:21:38,824
on your website, who owns that?

462
00:21:38,824 --> 00:21:39,674
I'm like, what are you talking about?

463
00:21:39,674 --> 00:21:40,344
Who owns that?

464
00:21:40,924 --> 00:21:41,784
And it, it was.

465
00:21:42,004 --> 00:21:45,034
It was stuff like you've talked about
that I'd never thought of that actually

466
00:21:45,034 --> 00:21:47,844
became an issue when I wanted to sell
the business because I had to warrant,

467
00:21:48,344 --> 00:21:50,684
you know, I had to make certain
warranties about what they were buying.

468
00:21:51,514 --> 00:21:58,504
And, um, and, and to do that was was quite
tricky and this was, I was selling the

469
00:21:58,504 --> 00:22:02,544
business to somebody in the same space, to
one of our competitors in the same space.

470
00:22:03,054 --> 00:22:06,114
Um, and so he knew the industry, he
knew a lot of what we were doing.

471
00:22:06,574 --> 00:22:12,784
Um, even so the contract negotiations
were a lot more complex than I

472
00:22:12,794 --> 00:22:16,874
thought they were going to be and
they were a lot more, um, protracted.

473
00:22:17,509 --> 00:22:23,669
Then I thought they were going to be,
um, but I'm very grateful for, and I'm

474
00:22:23,669 --> 00:22:26,409
not just saying this because you're a
lawyer on the phone, but I was very,

475
00:22:26,409 --> 00:22:31,609
very grateful to have a very good lawyer
to help me, uh, understand what was

476
00:22:31,619 --> 00:22:33,169
actually being put in this contract.

477
00:22:33,179 --> 00:22:34,969
And when you took a stood back, you

478
00:22:35,054 --> 00:22:37,224
you're definitely not saying because
I'm here because he's a good lawyer.

479
00:22:37,224 --> 00:22:38,054
But, yeah.

480
00:22:39,779 --> 00:22:40,269
yeah, but generally

481
00:22:40,544 --> 00:22:43,414
So kudos, kudos, kudos
to that, to that guy, you

482
00:22:43,524 --> 00:22:44,504
Kudos that guy.

483
00:22:44,504 --> 00:22:49,004
Yeah, but it's, it's one of those when
you, when, when I took a step back and I

484
00:22:49,004 --> 00:22:53,664
looked at it, it made sense why my, why
the guy buying the business wanted me

485
00:22:53,664 --> 00:22:58,014
to sign the contract that he did because
he wanted as much surety about what he

486
00:22:58,014 --> 00:22:59,474
was buying as he could possibly get.

487
00:22:59,964 --> 00:23:03,554
Um, and so it was just really
fascinating that that whole contract

488
00:23:03,584 --> 00:23:05,504
going backwards and forwards, um,

489
00:23:05,704 --> 00:23:09,084
it is, it really, it
really surprises people.

490
00:23:09,084 --> 00:23:12,534
I get a lot of my favorite is like,
come on, isn't it just boilerplate?

491
00:23:12,554 --> 00:23:14,084
Can't you just do it for like 500 bucks?

492
00:23:14,084 --> 00:23:15,384
And like, it's just boilerplate.

493
00:23:15,384 --> 00:23:15,844
Right.

494
00:23:15,884 --> 00:23:19,844
And you're like, next time
you get on a plane, right?

495
00:23:19,864 --> 00:23:22,364
And you get on a plane, I want you
to look to your left when you walk in

496
00:23:22,364 --> 00:23:26,324
the front door and you see the cockpit
there and all the switches and buttons.

497
00:23:27,099 --> 00:23:28,029
Is that boilerplate?

498
00:23:29,349 --> 00:23:29,989
Probably.

499
00:23:30,499 --> 00:23:31,819
Can you fly the fucking plane though?

500
00:23:31,919 --> 00:23:32,269
No.

501
00:23:32,659 --> 00:23:34,079
So, pardon my language.

502
00:23:34,339 --> 00:23:36,169
Um, sorry.

503
00:23:36,369 --> 00:23:38,819
Um, you see what I'm saying?

504
00:23:38,819 --> 00:23:43,459
Like, those contracts are, I like the
cockpit analogy because, one, I'm an

505
00:23:43,459 --> 00:23:45,099
aviation dork, and I can actually...

506
00:23:45,329 --> 00:23:47,709
Like my neighbors, when I worked at
Microsoft for the flight simulator guys

507
00:23:47,709 --> 00:23:51,609
and actually taught me how to do the cat
three auto land, which is really cool.

508
00:23:51,609 --> 00:23:55,369
So I feel like I feel like I could
land the plane if both pilots actually

509
00:23:55,379 --> 00:23:56,499
had the fish and it was a problem.

510
00:23:57,394 --> 00:23:57,944
Ha ha ha ha.

511
00:23:58,099 --> 00:23:59,659
if the plane was otherwise
fully functional.

512
00:23:59,959 --> 00:24:03,349
But the other reason I like the strategy
is the scenarios because it's it's if

513
00:24:03,349 --> 00:24:06,089
you look at the complexity of a You
know typical airplane cockpit with

514
00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:07,639
all those like little switches, right?

515
00:24:08,029 --> 00:24:10,229
There's tiny little switches
all over the place just floor

516
00:24:10,229 --> 00:24:11,269
to ceiling switches, right?

517
00:24:12,034 --> 00:24:14,334
That's kind of like what
a purchase agreement is.

518
00:24:14,364 --> 00:24:19,554
It's like every word, every comma,
in a way, is like a switch, right?

519
00:24:19,744 --> 00:24:23,624
And it's not that this is something
profound and like that this purchase

520
00:24:23,624 --> 00:24:26,634
agreement is so different than any
other one that's why you need a lawyer.

521
00:24:26,634 --> 00:24:30,664
It's that you need a lawyer to sort of
be the interpreter and say, Okay, well.

522
00:24:31,019 --> 00:24:34,599
Here's the risk profile that buyer wants.

523
00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:37,359
Here's the risk profile you want
in order to get that risk profile.

524
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,869
We need to do this, this, this,
and you know, use, you know, define

525
00:24:40,869 --> 00:24:43,879
knowledge as your actual knowledge,
not your constructive knowledge.

526
00:24:44,179 --> 00:24:49,699
And then disclose this on that,
you know, apply this indemnity cap.

527
00:24:49,779 --> 00:24:53,659
Apply, you know, so like you're, you're,
you're building this configuration,

528
00:24:53,689 --> 00:24:58,269
if you will, within this, you know,
30 to 75 page document, depending on,

529
00:24:58,299 --> 00:24:59,499
you know, what you're working with.

530
00:25:01,129 --> 00:25:04,219
When you're building that configuration,
you're configuring it for a specific

531
00:25:04,219 --> 00:25:05,919
purpose and a certain risk profile.

532
00:25:05,959 --> 00:25:09,719
So that's why I like the, you know,
and one flip of one switch can

533
00:25:09,719 --> 00:25:11,869
just undo the entire thing, right?

534
00:25:11,899 --> 00:25:15,509
One missing comma, one, you
know, knowledge qualifier

535
00:25:15,509 --> 00:25:16,319
that you should have had.

536
00:25:16,339 --> 00:25:21,599
How you define the word fraud, I mean,
can just completely change the entire.

537
00:25:22,029 --> 00:25:26,159
Risk profile, the deal as, as,
as, one switch on a topic, it

538
00:25:26,159 --> 00:25:28,709
could probably very much change
the directory of your flight path.

539
00:25:28,969 --> 00:25:32,789
So, um, you know, I don't know,
maybe that's not a great analogy.

540
00:25:32,809 --> 00:25:34,479
I like it, but I still stand by it.

541
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,159
I think it's a pretty decent analogy.

542
00:25:35,914 --> 00:25:36,564
That works.

543
00:25:36,594 --> 00:25:38,574
I get it, having flown planes myself.

544
00:25:38,574 --> 00:25:38,984
I get it.

545
00:25:39,014 --> 00:25:42,594
It's um, I'm the guy that maybe, I
think I could probably try and land

546
00:25:42,594 --> 00:25:45,074
the plane but I think I'd probably
still spend the first 30 minutes

547
00:25:45,084 --> 00:25:46,584
trying to save the life of pilots.

548
00:25:46,644 --> 00:25:47,854
Ha ha ha ha.

549
00:25:48,034 --> 00:25:49,124
And back up full

550
00:25:49,249 --> 00:25:49,729
I got it.

551
00:25:49,729 --> 00:25:52,719
It's if an airbus, airbus
or Boeing, like I got this.

552
00:25:52,784 --> 00:25:53,254
Yeah, no

553
00:25:53,769 --> 00:25:53,889
it.

554
00:25:54,189 --> 00:25:58,139
they got the whole, computer,
the FMCs, it's all programs.

555
00:25:58,139 --> 00:25:58,569
I'm fine.

556
00:25:58,919 --> 00:25:59,329
I'm good.

557
00:25:59,689 --> 00:26:01,259
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not
hand flying this thing.

558
00:26:01,269 --> 00:26:01,619
I'm just

559
00:26:02,164 --> 00:26:02,674
yeah, yeah.

560
00:26:03,159 --> 00:26:04,719
do it, you know.

561
00:26:06,554 --> 00:26:11,244
So if you're, um, if I'm, I'm
fascinated talking to you, Paul,

562
00:26:11,444 --> 00:26:13,744
because again, it's just reminding
me of that whole journey that I went

563
00:26:13,744 --> 00:26:14,754
through in selling our business.

564
00:26:16,014 --> 00:26:18,384
We were pretty well
established 12 years old.

565
00:26:18,394 --> 00:26:19,364
We've been doing it a while.

566
00:26:19,364 --> 00:26:20,634
I've been around the block a few times.

567
00:26:20,634 --> 00:26:23,024
I've got a few gray hairs
on the chin sort of thing.

568
00:26:23,604 --> 00:26:26,714
Um, but I'm aware that, you know,
people listening to the show are

569
00:26:26,714 --> 00:26:29,644
going to be at different stages
of their e commerce journey.

570
00:26:30,164 --> 00:26:34,294
So if people are just starting out in e
commerce, uh, and they're listening to you

571
00:26:34,294 --> 00:26:40,134
talk about lawyers and trademarks and, and
all that sort of thing, is this something

572
00:26:40,134 --> 00:26:43,644
that you, you think you would say, if
you're starting to think about this?

573
00:26:44,079 --> 00:26:48,499
From the start, or is this, um, should
I just get up and running first?

574
00:26:48,499 --> 00:26:52,199
I'm just kind of, you know, curious,
what advice would you give to a startup?

575
00:26:52,914 --> 00:26:58,444
So I'm a big believer and, and, and, and
sort of, this is why I created the seller

576
00:26:58,444 --> 00:27:01,804
basis program that I created because it's
sort of for this very point, it's like,

577
00:27:02,304 --> 00:27:04,194
I'm a big believer in a couple of things.

578
00:27:04,204 --> 00:27:07,244
One, we do kind of invest
in our clients, right?

579
00:27:07,264 --> 00:27:08,924
Like we understand that like.

580
00:27:09,654 --> 00:27:12,464
Like, like, let's take a subject
like asset protection, right?

581
00:27:12,464 --> 00:27:15,174
You can have a limited liability
company in America and that

582
00:27:15,264 --> 00:27:16,524
may protect your assets.

583
00:27:16,584 --> 00:27:18,274
It'll give you some protection, right?

584
00:27:18,704 --> 00:27:20,344
There's, there's always
ways to make it better.

585
00:27:20,344 --> 00:27:24,954
You can also do a full on trust in
a state, you know, blowout, right?

586
00:27:24,964 --> 00:27:28,859
With multiple entities and
offshore entities and go, you know.

587
00:27:29,159 --> 00:27:31,309
So the question is like,
what's appropriate, right?

588
00:27:31,819 --> 00:27:36,149
If you're just starting out on Amazon,
maybe just, or e commerce, maybe you're

589
00:27:36,149 --> 00:27:39,079
doing some arbitrage, not even selling
your own product, just reselling, you

590
00:27:39,079 --> 00:27:40,549
know, stuff you buy at the Nike store.

591
00:27:41,049 --> 00:27:46,139
You need for that, you know, for that big
done up structure is probably minimal,

592
00:27:46,919 --> 00:27:52,029
but let's say, um, you're selling
hoverboards and you're worth 10 million.

593
00:27:52,309 --> 00:27:52,759
Right.

594
00:27:53,549 --> 00:27:55,099
And you might need that, right?

595
00:27:55,269 --> 00:27:56,509
Then you may need of that structure.

596
00:27:56,509 --> 00:27:58,599
So I'm a big believer in like.

597
00:27:59,099 --> 00:28:02,969
What's appropriate for the person at the
time and can always go back to visit.

598
00:28:02,969 --> 00:28:06,479
So, like, I've met, I've gone
to Amazon, you know, meetups.

599
00:28:06,569 --> 00:28:08,509
The New York Amazon meetup is fantastic.

600
00:28:08,529 --> 00:28:10,079
It's run by my friend, Brandon Furman.

601
00:28:10,079 --> 00:28:13,399
It's, it's, it's one of the
best for, for a free meetup.

602
00:28:13,419 --> 00:28:14,419
It's phenomenal.

603
00:28:14,569 --> 00:28:18,639
Um, I mean, the quality of, of, of
speakers they get just to show up for

604
00:28:18,639 --> 00:28:20,369
a free meetup, it's, it's really great.

605
00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:24,019
It's run at Payoneer's office
and, and, and it's, and the reason

606
00:28:24,019 --> 00:28:26,029
I bring that up is because it's
always an interesting mix of people.

607
00:28:26,029 --> 00:28:31,449
You get some really heavy hitters in the
New York area who show up, um, some, you

608
00:28:31,449 --> 00:28:33,869
know, medium sized Amazon sellers as well.

609
00:28:33,879 --> 00:28:36,229
And then you get some noobs who just
have no idea what they're doing.

610
00:28:36,229 --> 00:28:38,739
And they oftentimes, when they hear I'm a
lawyer, will come up to me and say like,

611
00:28:38,749 --> 00:28:39,999
you know, do I need to set up an LLC?

612
00:28:40,299 --> 00:28:41,189
And I'll be like, well.

613
00:28:42,669 --> 00:28:43,619
Not necessarily.

614
00:28:43,619 --> 00:28:44,259
Like, maybe not.

615
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:47,599
Maybe you need to figure out if
this is what you want to do first.

616
00:28:47,599 --> 00:28:49,249
Maybe you need to sell
a few things, right?

617
00:28:49,569 --> 00:28:53,969
Now, if you're going straight into brand
creation, trademark, and you already

618
00:28:53,969 --> 00:28:56,639
have a product in mind, then yeah,
you probably do want to set up an LSD.

619
00:28:56,729 --> 00:28:58,610
Like, if you're just like, hey,
I think I want to sell on the

620
00:28:58,610 --> 00:28:59,699
internet, what's that like?

621
00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:02,619
You know, maybe try reselling
a few things that you buy at C.

622
00:29:02,619 --> 00:29:02,719
J.

623
00:29:02,719 --> 00:29:02,959
Maxx.

624
00:29:03,679 --> 00:29:06,489
For that, you don't even
need an LLC to get started.

625
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:09,599
But make a note, you know, if
you hit six figures, go back

626
00:29:09,659 --> 00:29:11,599
and talk to me about an LLC.

627
00:29:12,229 --> 00:29:16,749
And the reason I, I, I mention
this is because our program is

628
00:29:16,749 --> 00:29:19,639
kind of designed, we created this
thing called Seller Basics, right?

629
00:29:19,709 --> 00:29:21,149
And 100 dollars a month.

630
00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:24,979
And I'm not trying to promote it,
but it's, it kind of just fits

631
00:29:24,979 --> 00:29:26,129
the spirit of what you're saying.

632
00:29:26,139 --> 00:29:29,324
It's like, So basically this is a way
you pay 100 dollars a month and you can

633
00:29:29,324 --> 00:29:32,534
actually speak to lawyers like me or other
lawyers who are trained in e com, who

634
00:29:33,294 --> 00:29:37,734
know your business, and you can ask them
questions and you can get answers rather

635
00:29:37,734 --> 00:29:41,994
than wasting your time getting the wrong
answer from Google, you can go straight

636
00:29:41,994 --> 00:29:43,224
to the lawyer and get those answers.

637
00:29:43,264 --> 00:29:49,659
And, and, and, and we did that for a
reason because When I first started out

638
00:29:49,659 --> 00:29:52,879
in private practice, which was totally
an accident, like my whole law practice

639
00:29:52,879 --> 00:29:57,959
was, was based on a blog post that I wrote
and went kind of viral didn't intend to.

640
00:29:57,959 --> 00:30:03,579
It was about taxes and sales tax, but,
um, you know, my whole point of view

641
00:30:03,579 --> 00:30:09,049
is like when you, um, when a lot of
my clients get in trouble, you know,

642
00:30:09,049 --> 00:30:11,679
a lot of times it's in that early
stage when they were just starting

643
00:30:11,679 --> 00:30:12,799
out, there's something they missed.

644
00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:15,189
They forgot dot an I across the T.

645
00:30:15,704 --> 00:30:18,584
And it's one of those I's and T's
that if they just, if I had known that

646
00:30:18,584 --> 00:30:22,784
person and was able to, to, to go back
in time and meet that person and have

647
00:30:22,784 --> 00:30:26,004
a 15 minute conversation with them, we
could have prevented the whole thing.

648
00:30:26,004 --> 00:30:28,664
It's like this commercial in America,
the Geico commercial where you say,

649
00:30:28,664 --> 00:30:32,914
well, you know, 15 you 15, you know,
can save you hundreds on your insurance.

650
00:30:33,024 --> 00:30:34,494
It's sort of like 15
minutes with a lawyer.

651
00:30:34,974 --> 00:30:36,684
Can sometimes save your entire business.

652
00:30:36,714 --> 00:30:41,204
So that's why we created the program is
partially because not just to protect

653
00:30:41,204 --> 00:30:45,104
your account health with Amazon and
your, or your e commerce providers, but

654
00:30:45,554 --> 00:30:50,194
so that I actually liked the program
because it encourages you in a sort of

655
00:30:50,194 --> 00:30:53,544
safe way where you're not going to get a
surprise bill because there is billing.

656
00:30:54,204 --> 00:30:54,624
Right?

657
00:30:54,814 --> 00:30:56,464
You can ask that question now.

658
00:30:56,464 --> 00:30:58,154
You can say, Hey, I'm starting a business.

659
00:30:58,174 --> 00:31:00,064
I want to sell bicycle helmets on Amazon.

660
00:31:00,074 --> 00:31:01,964
Anything I need to know, right?

661
00:31:01,964 --> 00:31:04,954
You can ask that question and get
some, and get some good feedback

662
00:31:04,964 --> 00:31:05,954
and get some good answers.

663
00:31:05,954 --> 00:31:07,244
Or I want to file a trademark.

664
00:31:07,564 --> 00:31:08,444
What do I need to know?

665
00:31:08,844 --> 00:31:12,114
And I love that I'm a big believer
in investing in my clients.

666
00:31:12,134 --> 00:31:16,154
And I'm very, and what I mean by that
is I like to be, we don't want to be

667
00:31:16,154 --> 00:31:19,434
the most expensive one on the block,
especially for the startups, right?

668
00:31:19,634 --> 00:31:22,714
We want to be a little bit easy, but
because we're, we're in it, you know,

669
00:31:23,054 --> 00:31:24,424
you know, some of my biggest clients.

670
00:31:25,089 --> 00:31:28,679
Who sold their business in 2021, you
know, for, for tens of millions of

671
00:31:28,679 --> 00:31:30,879
dollars, they, they were clients of
mine when they weren't even doing a

672
00:31:30,879 --> 00:31:32,679
million, you know, four years prior.

673
00:31:33,394 --> 00:31:40,534
You know, and it was my availability,
my going easy on them that led them

674
00:31:40,534 --> 00:31:43,054
to coming to me when they were ready
to sell and say, okay, now I'm ready

675
00:31:43,054 --> 00:31:44,144
to sell my business to 10 million.

676
00:31:44,154 --> 00:31:44,184
Okay.

677
00:31:44,624 --> 00:31:48,544
You know, so there's sort of a, I
call that the sort of investment

678
00:31:48,544 --> 00:31:50,194
we make in our, in our new clients.

679
00:31:50,204 --> 00:31:54,194
We, we, we want people to
build successful businesses.

680
00:31:54,195 --> 00:31:58,514
We hate the idea of them just kind
of, you know, missing out on something

681
00:31:58,514 --> 00:32:02,914
and having that totally derail the
enterprise value they're trying to create.

682
00:32:03,284 --> 00:32:05,994
And so that's why we built this
program that we built to encourage

683
00:32:06,034 --> 00:32:16,594
people to get that kind of help and
to make it easy on the front end.

684
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,160
uh, and ask a question is always super
helpful unless, uh, and I mean this with

685
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,590
all due respect, unless, you know, you're
from, from some of the younger generations

686
00:32:24,610 --> 00:32:27,370
and they don't really know what the
phone is, but maybe they can text in.

687
00:32:28,334 --> 00:32:28,804
Yeah, they can.

688
00:32:28,804 --> 00:32:31,994
Yeah, it's definitely gonna be a phone
call, but they can go, they can go on

689
00:32:31,994 --> 00:32:36,124
their portal and schedule, you schedule
the call and we do it usually a lot of

690
00:32:36,124 --> 00:32:39,304
times via zoom because you know, we,
we started getting a lot people from

691
00:32:39,304 --> 00:32:43,124
different parts of the world and it's
hard to dial Kazakhstan for some reason.

692
00:32:43,174 --> 00:32:45,154
And so, or, you know.

693
00:32:45,780 --> 00:32:47,160
I I can

694
00:32:47,304 --> 00:32:50,034
it's just after, after we're
switching to zoom, but you know,

695
00:32:50,034 --> 00:32:51,364
we're very popular Romania.

696
00:32:51,454 --> 00:32:53,574
I think I should be
Romanian lawyer of the year.

697
00:32:53,734 --> 00:32:54,444
I really do.

698
00:32:54,514 --> 00:32:56,024
I should be Bucharest lawyer of the year.

699
00:32:56,244 --> 00:32:57,594
Uh, of Romanian.

700
00:32:57,594 --> 00:32:58,914
I said, something's going on in Romania.

701
00:32:59,474 --> 00:33:00,454
There's something in the water that

702
00:33:00,690 --> 00:33:02,380
Something's Something's growing.

703
00:33:02,574 --> 00:33:03,024
something.

704
00:33:03,134 --> 00:33:04,124
is a lot of brand activity.

705
00:33:05,330 --> 00:33:08,580
you've seen, um, you've obviously
seen him work with a lot of clients

706
00:33:08,580 --> 00:33:09,640
and get them through the gate.

707
00:33:09,930 --> 00:33:13,100
So do you predominantly work with
the seller or do you work with the

708
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:14,050
buyer or do you work with both?

709
00:33:14,050 --> 00:33:20,369
It's a good question, uh, so when
it came to these big private equity

710
00:33:20,369 --> 00:33:23,859
backed aggregators, we work with
one of the big ones very early

711
00:33:23,859 --> 00:33:26,299
on, and it was at that moment.

712
00:33:26,299 --> 00:33:29,639
I decided I never want to work with
anyone again, and it's not because

713
00:33:29,639 --> 00:33:31,279
I had anything negative about them.

714
00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:32,459
I actually like them quite a lot.

715
00:33:32,459 --> 00:33:36,739
I'm still very close to them, but
I just think from our perspective,

716
00:33:37,139 --> 00:33:41,564
when you're that funded, I And
oftentimes they do like you're gonna

717
00:33:41,574 --> 00:33:44,674
hire any law firm you want, they can
hire some of the biggest law firms.

718
00:33:44,944 --> 00:33:45,674
That's what they want to do.

719
00:33:45,674 --> 00:33:49,384
And they have, like, we've, I have
literally been in deals and I've

720
00:33:49,384 --> 00:33:51,964
been in deals where, you know, the
other law firm is like the same

721
00:33:51,974 --> 00:33:53,764
law firm I work with at Microsoft.

722
00:33:53,764 --> 00:33:54,844
I'm like, what are you doing here?

723
00:33:55,584 --> 00:33:57,065
like, your legal bills
more than this deal,

724
00:33:57,745 --> 00:33:58,065
Yeah.

725
00:33:58,474 --> 00:34:01,754
When you have 38 lawyers on every
phone call, your bill is going to be

726
00:34:01,754 --> 00:34:03,264
more than the seller is going to get.

727
00:34:03,654 --> 00:34:08,194
Um, but it's about the buyer wanting to be
protected and feeling protected and using

728
00:34:08,194 --> 00:34:09,974
a name brand law firm and paying for that.

729
00:34:10,514 --> 00:34:12,074
And, and so I get that.

730
00:34:12,504 --> 00:34:17,064
Um, so, so there's that perspective, but
from my perspective, I don't actually

731
00:34:17,064 --> 00:34:21,914
like being like, I think we're a seller
advocacy law firm, which we really are

732
00:34:21,994 --> 00:34:24,544
advocates for the e commerce community.

733
00:34:24,704 --> 00:34:26,904
Like we, we, we, we, and it's provable.

734
00:34:26,914 --> 00:34:29,704
Like we've, we've won court
cases on behalf of e commerce.

735
00:34:30,094 --> 00:34:31,124
As a class, right?

736
00:34:31,124 --> 00:34:34,424
We've won, uh, we, we spoke
to the antitrust subcommittee

737
00:34:34,424 --> 00:34:35,694
and we, we take action.

738
00:34:36,294 --> 00:34:39,404
Um, and so I don't like the
idea of being sort of like

739
00:34:39,404 --> 00:34:41,414
the bad guy to a small seller.

740
00:34:41,544 --> 00:34:45,414
I don't particularly love that
position, especially when, so like

741
00:34:45,414 --> 00:34:48,034
what I like to say is like, we
don't, we don't support big Agra.

742
00:34:48,044 --> 00:34:51,209
We don't, we don't represent
big Agra as a big aggregator.

743
00:34:51,759 --> 00:34:57,349
Um, so, but, but at the same time, if
my client is a, just a regular person

744
00:34:57,359 --> 00:35:00,359
who's looking to buy a business, I
will represent them on the buy side.

745
00:35:00,409 --> 00:35:04,789
That's not a but I just don't, I
don't feel like the big aggregators

746
00:35:04,819 --> 00:35:07,749
need me as much as I feel like the
seller community, there's not a lot of

747
00:35:07,749 --> 00:35:09,499
confident e commerce lawyers out there.

748
00:35:09,509 --> 00:35:12,259
I mean, it's not, and
it's not any negative.

749
00:35:12,259 --> 00:35:12,669
It's just.

750
00:35:13,494 --> 00:35:16,964
I mean, the idea that e commerce
is its own body of law is still,

751
00:35:16,964 --> 00:35:20,024
I think, a foreign concept to many
lawyers who don't live in this world,

752
00:35:20,064 --> 00:35:22,454
like who aren't from this world,
they just, it's just business law.

753
00:35:22,454 --> 00:35:24,324
Like, no, it's very
different e commerce law.

754
00:35:24,324 --> 00:35:29,684
It's very different, you know, opening
up a, a team, a tea shop in the middle

755
00:35:29,684 --> 00:35:35,714
of on high street in, in, in, you
know, any town UK is very different

756
00:35:36,484 --> 00:35:40,044
than starting a small business out
of your kitchen table that reaches.

757
00:35:40,564 --> 00:35:43,994
The entire country or halfway
across the globe and you're

758
00:35:43,994 --> 00:35:45,294
importing from another country.

759
00:35:45,295 --> 00:35:46,354
Like, like, do you see what I mean?

760
00:35:46,434 --> 00:35:50,624
Like e commerce created, what I call
the global small business, right?

761
00:35:50,624 --> 00:35:51,714
This is a concept that, right.

762
00:35:51,714 --> 00:35:52,584
And that's who we serve.

763
00:35:52,714 --> 00:35:54,194
We serve the global small business.

764
00:35:54,494 --> 00:35:55,634
And I always say.

765
00:35:56,214 --> 00:35:59,504
And that phrase global small
business is it's an oxymoron, right?

766
00:35:59,714 --> 00:36:01,844
Like if you were prior
to e commerce, right?

767
00:36:01,844 --> 00:36:04,194
In the 1980s, I have a
global small business.

768
00:36:04,204 --> 00:36:05,384
What the heck does that even mean?

769
00:36:05,394 --> 00:36:06,014
How is that even possible?

770
00:36:06,914 --> 00:36:11,494
But with FBA, especially, um, giving
you the power of Amazon's logistics.

771
00:36:12,024 --> 00:36:16,274
Um, and now with all the various
different, uh, logistics companies

772
00:36:16,274 --> 00:36:19,304
and 3PLs out there that you can use,
whether it's with Amazon or Shopify.

773
00:36:20,909 --> 00:36:21,049
Yeah.

774
00:36:21,049 --> 00:36:23,209
I mean, yeah, the global small
business is a real thing.

775
00:36:23,219 --> 00:36:26,949
And so part of what attracted me to
being, being in this body of law is

776
00:36:26,949 --> 00:36:31,709
the fact that I had multinational
commerce experience as a lawyer.

777
00:36:32,219 --> 00:36:36,499
And for the first time in the history
of the world, somebody who's not a

778
00:36:36,499 --> 00:36:38,069
billion dollar company needed my help.

779
00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:41,589
In fact, somebody who was not even a
million dollar company needed my help.

780
00:36:41,589 --> 00:36:44,409
To me, that was profoundly fascinating.

781
00:36:44,409 --> 00:36:46,009
And I wanted to see
what that was all about.

782
00:36:46,099 --> 00:36:47,959
And so that's kind of what
motivated me to check it out.

783
00:36:48,385 --> 00:36:49,085
Fantastic.

784
00:36:49,305 --> 00:36:49,975
Fantastic.

785
00:36:50,265 --> 00:36:55,525
So you've, you've obviously seen, um, a
lot of companies sold for a lot of money.

786
00:36:56,155 --> 00:37:01,710
What are some of the, um, The common
traits, I guess I'm, I'm just trying

787
00:37:01,710 --> 00:37:05,720
to, if someone's listening to the show,
um, who's thinking of getting involved

788
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:09,870
in e commerce to build a business, to
sell it, um, you know, obviously you've

789
00:37:09,870 --> 00:37:12,720
talked about getting the regulations
right and making sure your T's are crossed

790
00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:17,190
and I's are dotted, but what sort of
things sell well in your experience?

791
00:37:17,190 --> 00:37:21,260
What sort of things should I be
thinking about, um, from maybe an

792
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:24,720
industry or a niche or a country?

793
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:26,980
I'm just curious to learn
from that side of things.

794
00:37:28,664 --> 00:37:36,569
And that's the weird thing is that there
wasn't There wasn't much to, to it, right?

795
00:37:36,569 --> 00:37:41,209
I mean, it was really about what made
the product valuable, especially in

796
00:37:41,209 --> 00:37:44,819
the Amazon space, because most of
the Amazon aggregators were focused

797
00:37:44,849 --> 00:37:47,559
on Amazon dominant companies.

798
00:37:47,559 --> 00:37:51,529
Like they wanted 70 plus percent Amazon
because they didn't really know if

799
00:37:51,529 --> 00:37:53,359
their formula would work with Shopify.

800
00:37:54,189 --> 00:37:56,289
It was almost like the
listing proved itself.

801
00:37:56,299 --> 00:38:00,299
So if you ran the sale, the sales
kind of proved what was desirable

802
00:38:00,299 --> 00:38:01,529
is not so much the product.

803
00:38:02,019 --> 00:38:04,349
That being said, there were certain
product categories that were a

804
00:38:04,349 --> 00:38:08,349
little scarier than others, such
as anything toys, kids, right?

805
00:38:08,729 --> 00:38:11,519
Baby products, a little
bit scarier, right?

806
00:38:11,889 --> 00:38:15,609
Supplements, oddly, a lot of
companies were afraid of supplements.

807
00:38:15,609 --> 00:38:17,969
I think now a lot of companies are
starting to warm up to supplements.

808
00:38:18,414 --> 00:38:22,654
Um, but getting into supplements,
tough, tough business to get into at

809
00:38:22,654 --> 00:38:24,814
this mean, people do it all the time.

810
00:38:24,814 --> 00:38:27,044
It's so fricking competitive, right?

811
00:38:27,044 --> 00:38:30,164
I mean, it's, it's in some categories
I've heard you've had to spend

812
00:38:30,164 --> 00:38:31,934
millions of PPC pet products.

813
00:38:32,644 --> 00:38:37,794
Um, you know, I think good ingenuity
products where you can take the lead

814
00:38:38,474 --> 00:38:43,404
where your target market isn't, you
know, Children and babies, um, better.

815
00:38:43,914 --> 00:38:47,684
Um, you know, not too dangerous, not the
kind of thing that's gonna, you know,

816
00:38:48,094 --> 00:38:53,844
but really, I mean, the world's, I mean,
there's, there's no one specific category.

817
00:38:54,414 --> 00:38:59,044
Um, that that's to avoid versus the
other side of like, you know, like I

818
00:38:59,044 --> 00:39:03,644
said, a lot of people who sell products
in the gun space have a harder time,

819
00:39:04,024 --> 00:39:07,604
even not even if it's not guns, but
like, on accessories, there's a whole,

820
00:39:07,614 --> 00:39:11,054
like, a lot of buyers have clauses
that say they can't buy what they call.

821
00:39:11,054 --> 00:39:13,014
We call them to a company.

822
00:39:13,014 --> 00:39:14,844
2nd amendment as in the Constitution.

823
00:39:14,944 --> 00:39:17,454
2nd amendment, um, Bill, right?

824
00:39:17,544 --> 00:39:21,329
Uh, you know, the famous
Karen gun law, Okay.

825
00:39:21,529 --> 00:39:24,919
You know, so a lot of, a lot of buyers
apparently have like these clauses

826
00:39:25,089 --> 00:39:28,519
that say that they can't, you know,
a lot of lenders, excuse me, have

827
00:39:28,519 --> 00:39:31,229
these clauses that say that they're,
you know, borrowers can't use the

828
00:39:31,229 --> 00:39:36,059
money to buy products that are into
sort of the gun space, if you will.

829
00:39:36,089 --> 00:39:37,579
So there's like weird
restrictions like that.

830
00:39:38,099 --> 00:39:41,179
Um, stay away from things that are
controversial, you know, things

831
00:39:41,179 --> 00:39:44,194
that make kind of questionable
claims, like if they're like, You're

832
00:39:44,194 --> 00:39:47,424
selling like, you know, magic beads
or something like that, you know?

833
00:39:47,534 --> 00:39:52,964
Um, but you know, if you can make
headway, just kind of selling relatively.

834
00:39:53,504 --> 00:39:58,204
Routine stuff or just kind of a cool take
on a product that's relatively benign.

835
00:39:58,204 --> 00:40:02,074
I think, I think, you know, it's hard to
say there's any one category or specific

836
00:40:02,074 --> 00:40:04,164
categories that are better than others.

837
00:40:04,164 --> 00:40:05,784
And things trend differently.

838
00:40:05,784 --> 00:40:09,584
Like, for example, uh, last
example, I'll get on this point.

839
00:40:10,344 --> 00:40:12,724
Kitchen products always
usually do really well.

840
00:40:12,734 --> 00:40:15,764
Like if you can make in kitchen,
it's like, it's a popular category.

841
00:40:16,124 --> 00:40:18,264
People are always looking for
quirky little quick, you know, on

842
00:40:18,274 --> 00:40:20,714
the latest avocado peeler, right?

843
00:40:20,754 --> 00:40:21,854
They're always looking for something.

844
00:40:22,309 --> 00:40:26,729
Um, it was interesting to see, like,
and so in 2020, we had this huge COVID

845
00:40:26,729 --> 00:40:32,759
bubble, like a lot of people, if you were
in, um, anything outdoorsy, anything like

846
00:40:32,909 --> 00:40:37,689
kitchen, uh, home goods type stuff, you
were doing great, because people were

847
00:40:37,689 --> 00:40:40,449
stuck at home, they were looking for
things to do, you could only do outdoorsy

848
00:40:40,459 --> 00:40:44,389
stuff, obviously if you were in travel,
that was a bad time, so they had this huge

849
00:40:44,419 --> 00:40:51,194
bump, we call the COVID bump, And then
come 2021, the market was still on fire

850
00:40:51,234 --> 00:40:57,514
in 2021 in terms of like Amazon salaries,
but there was sort of a bubble bursting

851
00:40:57,514 --> 00:40:59,724
that happened in about April of 2021.

852
00:40:59,724 --> 00:41:04,114
If you were in home goods, because all
of a sudden you had, you know, people

853
00:41:04,114 --> 00:41:08,964
were, you know, COVID restrictions were
relaxed in 21, people were suddenly

854
00:41:08,964 --> 00:41:10,994
allowed to go outside again to travel.

855
00:41:11,384 --> 00:41:14,934
And what you saw was, I
guess, just a steep decline in

856
00:41:14,934 --> 00:41:16,084
interest in anything kitchen.

857
00:41:16,084 --> 00:41:20,414
So, all of a sudden having like a
kitchen product in 2021 was like a curse.

858
00:41:20,424 --> 00:41:22,154
It was like, it forget about it.

859
00:41:22,174 --> 00:41:25,164
You know, so, sometimes
things trend funny,

860
00:41:25,765 --> 00:41:26,025
Yeah.

861
00:41:27,059 --> 00:41:30,129
But I would always say stick with
stuff that's less regulated, like,

862
00:41:30,179 --> 00:41:34,299
you know, things that, you know, stay
away from foods and perishables, um,

863
00:41:34,599 --> 00:41:37,469
stay away from clothing, you know,
unless that's your passion, but you

864
00:41:37,469 --> 00:41:40,369
know, clothing's always tough because
you've got returns, you've got sizes.

865
00:41:40,909 --> 00:41:44,369
So it's just, it's, it's always
a harder product category to get

866
00:41:44,369 --> 00:41:45,719
into unless that's your passion.

867
00:41:45,959 --> 00:41:52,804
Um, But yeah, it's, it's, it's kind
of, you know, a lot of these buyers and

868
00:41:52,824 --> 00:41:55,354
private equity, especially, they don't
really care what you're selling is, I

869
00:41:55,354 --> 00:42:00,354
mean, you're proving it via your sales,
your sales of make it speak for itself.

870
00:42:00,864 --> 00:42:04,324
The one thing I tell people, you know,
with patents and things like that, you

871
00:42:04,324 --> 00:42:06,564
know, I've had people say to me, well,
I've got this patent and that's going

872
00:42:06,564 --> 00:42:10,994
to be great once I launch this product
under this patent, it's like, do realize

873
00:42:10,994 --> 00:42:13,004
that you won't get any value out of that.

874
00:42:13,054 --> 00:42:16,194
If you, you, the only way to get
value out of a patent product.

875
00:42:16,894 --> 00:42:21,214
In a sort of a private equity deal is to
show that it actually makes money Right.

876
00:42:21,214 --> 00:42:25,324
Like nobody's going to pay you on
the speculative future earnings.

877
00:42:25,324 --> 00:42:29,194
You've got to prove, Hey, this company,
I'm consistently selling this product

878
00:42:29,194 --> 00:42:30,464
and making a million dollars a year.

879
00:42:30,854 --> 00:42:32,114
This product is covered by this patent.

880
00:42:32,115 --> 00:42:36,464
And then you have the ability to not only
sell it at a multiple of a million, but a

881
00:42:36,464 --> 00:42:38,054
higher multiple because there's a patent.

882
00:42:38,144 --> 00:42:40,764
So that's sort of how the patent, but if
you, if you haven't proven that patent,

883
00:42:41,504 --> 00:42:44,004
then it may not do anything for you.

884
00:42:44,014 --> 00:42:44,804
Like you're not, not

885
00:42:45,325 --> 00:42:45,535
printed on.

886
00:42:45,745 --> 00:42:46,185
Yeah.

887
00:42:46,374 --> 00:42:49,714
it's, it's probably not worth much,
you know, in terms of your deal.

888
00:42:50,064 --> 00:42:54,004
Maybe in the next, you know, maybe when
the buyer takes it over, they might get

889
00:42:54,004 --> 00:42:57,034
something out of it if they prove it's
worth something, but just kind of keep

890
00:42:57,034 --> 00:43:00,854
that in mind when you're considering
timing of, you patents are great, but

891
00:43:00,854 --> 00:43:02,574
execution is so much more important too.

892
00:43:02,975 --> 00:43:04,175
No, super, super helpful.

893
00:43:04,355 --> 00:43:08,075
What's been the most surprising thing
you've seen sell well, uh, as a company?

894
00:43:12,084 --> 00:43:18,474
Well, I think that it was just, what
was surprising was the lack of, during

895
00:43:18,474 --> 00:43:19,694
the sort of the bubble of it all.

896
00:43:19,744 --> 00:43:20,174
Right.

897
00:43:20,184 --> 00:43:20,474
When.

898
00:43:21,499 --> 00:43:28,509
When deals would close and fast, you know,
30 days time was just go back to my point

899
00:43:28,649 --> 00:43:33,589
of the avocado peelers like it seemed odd
that some of these buyers were spending

900
00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:36,329
like five, you know, top top multiples.

901
00:43:36,794 --> 00:43:40,124
For like the most generic, probably
like the Alibaba specials where

902
00:43:40,124 --> 00:43:42,734
you just literally wipe the label
off, but you're not, know, and

903
00:43:43,694 --> 00:43:44,874
you, know, it just didn't matter.

904
00:43:44,904 --> 00:43:49,074
And it was like the lack of due
diligence that blew my mind.

905
00:43:49,084 --> 00:43:53,584
Like they were so eager to spend the
money that was committed to them by their

906
00:43:53,584 --> 00:43:58,674
lenders or investors that they would
just literally bypass the diligence.

907
00:43:58,684 --> 00:44:01,794
And they would, they would basically
just want you to go back to the contract.

908
00:44:01,794 --> 00:44:02,874
Like we were talking about earlier.

909
00:44:03,564 --> 00:44:05,464
Where you're making all these
warranties about your company.

910
00:44:05,464 --> 00:44:07,124
They were just basically
saying, Hey, we're just going

911
00:44:07,124 --> 00:44:08,044
to rely on your warranties.

912
00:44:08,344 --> 00:44:10,744
We're not going to actually do
the due diligence and investigate.

913
00:44:10,744 --> 00:44:15,734
So I would see things sell that were
like, you know, totally in violation

914
00:44:15,734 --> 00:44:17,394
of law and we would disclose it.

915
00:44:17,984 --> 00:44:22,794
Like this is not compliant with like
these laws or, and it just didn't matter.

916
00:44:22,874 --> 00:44:23,704
Like they didn't care.

917
00:44:23,844 --> 00:44:29,404
Like they were so, and, and so it was
surprised me just like, and that's kind

918
00:44:29,404 --> 00:44:32,504
of where I was clued into this feels
like a bubble because it's just like.

919
00:44:33,139 --> 00:44:36,439
If they're that stupid with their money
and then what investors are that stupid

920
00:44:36,439 --> 00:44:40,189
with their money to let them do that,
I mean, that feels like a bubble to

921
00:44:40,189 --> 00:44:46,239
me, you know, and then we saw a lot of
aggregators fail and, and, and for a

922
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,189
number of reasons, some of it, I think
being the quality of the assets that

923
00:44:49,189 --> 00:44:51,379
they bought, um, came back to haunt them.

924
00:44:52,104 --> 00:44:55,204
Uh, in other cases, we think they
underestimated the value of the,

925
00:44:55,214 --> 00:44:59,814
the, the, the seller's contribution
to the, to the, to the sales process

926
00:44:59,864 --> 00:45:02,204
and, and thinking they could do
it better than everybody else.

927
00:45:02,264 --> 00:45:07,604
But, um, so I think it's always just
those cases where it was like, you

928
00:45:07,604 --> 00:45:11,844
know, if I was the buyer in any given
scenario, knowing what I know, I run away.

929
00:45:12,504 --> 00:45:14,834
It's like the first product, like,
no, it's still going to sell for

930
00:45:14,844 --> 00:45:15,974
millions and millions of dollars.

931
00:45:16,574 --> 00:45:20,604
Like the, the, yeah, it only
blows up 10% of the time.

932
00:45:21,219 --> 00:45:22,409
know, it's only dismembered.

933
00:45:22,499 --> 00:45:24,219
It's only dismembered 20 people,

934
00:45:25,435 --> 00:45:25,835
wow.

935
00:45:26,019 --> 00:45:26,659
you know, you

936
00:45:26,805 --> 00:45:27,675
people would buy it.

937
00:45:27,945 --> 00:45:31,605
It's funny, isn't Because they, they,
people do get in these buying frenzies

938
00:45:31,605 --> 00:45:32,625
every now and again, don't they?

939
00:45:32,675 --> 00:45:36,265
And then it sort of, then it becomes a bit
more sensible again after a little while.

940
00:45:36,805 --> 00:45:38,545
Um, until the next time.

941
00:45:39,259 --> 00:45:42,089
Exactly, and it has it's the
market's suddenly cool The multiples

942
00:45:42,099 --> 00:45:44,819
have come down and it's not just
the multiples that come down.

943
00:45:44,819 --> 00:45:48,809
It's transaction complexity has gone
up So we're seeing more and more Deals

944
00:45:48,809 --> 00:45:52,389
are taking deals like to take 30 days
to close and now taking sometimes six

945
00:45:52,389 --> 00:45:57,524
seven eight months to close going back
and forth on terms forever Arguing over

946
00:45:57,524 --> 00:46:00,374
terms, the lawyers, like the cost of
transactional costs has only gone up.

947
00:46:00,464 --> 00:46:05,014
Like, I mean, in some ways, like the
volume of transactions that we did in

948
00:46:05,014 --> 00:46:09,504
2021 was not the volume we're doing
now is much lower, but the transaction

949
00:46:09,504 --> 00:46:13,684
costs much higher because the buyers
are not just doing this fly by night,

950
00:46:13,714 --> 00:46:16,154
buying anymore that they're getting
real lawyers and doing, they're

951
00:46:16,154 --> 00:46:18,534
actually doing the diligence, on it.

952
00:46:18,974 --> 00:46:22,824
And so it's a much different transaction
today than it was a couple of years ago.

953
00:46:23,300 --> 00:46:23,640
Yeah.

954
00:46:23,830 --> 00:46:24,610
No, fair enough.

955
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:25,430
Fair enough.

956
00:46:26,290 --> 00:46:30,880
Paul, listen, uh, I'm, I'm, uh,
I'm fascinated by the conversation.

957
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,920
Um, if people want to reach out, if
they want to connect, if they want

958
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,040
to find out more about seller basics,
what's the best way to do that?

959
00:46:38,939 --> 00:46:39,249
Sure.

960
00:46:39,279 --> 00:46:40,529
So they should go to sellerbasics.

961
00:46:40,759 --> 00:46:41,839
com and sign up.

962
00:46:41,839 --> 00:46:42,849
It's a hundred dollars a month.

963
00:46:42,879 --> 00:46:43,689
There's no contract.

964
00:46:43,739 --> 00:46:48,889
It's ridiculously cheap way to
have access to legal and anything

965
00:46:48,889 --> 00:46:49,839
goes wrong with your account.

966
00:46:49,839 --> 00:46:52,009
We are there to help you
try to get it back online.

967
00:46:52,009 --> 00:46:53,289
We'll go to work for you.

968
00:46:53,469 --> 00:46:56,459
Um, if you just want to email
me and say, hi, my law firm

969
00:46:56,459 --> 00:46:58,269
email address is paul@ecom.Law.

970
00:47:01,109 --> 00:47:04,739
That's paul at ecom, E C
O M dot L A W, email me.

971
00:47:05,364 --> 00:47:08,354
And say hi and say how, how
much you really enjoyed having

972
00:47:08,814 --> 00:47:09,904
seen me on this podcast.

973
00:47:10,424 --> 00:47:12,514
Or you can tell me how much you
hated having me on this podcast.

974
00:47:12,604 --> 00:47:13,384
I shouldn't argue on it.

975
00:47:13,445 --> 00:47:14,895
Either way, just start the

976
00:47:14,974 --> 00:47:15,334
Yeah.

977
00:47:15,334 --> 00:47:17,024
Just, just, just get, yeah, guy.

978
00:47:17,254 --> 00:47:19,496
mean, I prefer my mum always
said, if you don't have anything

979
00:47:19,496 --> 00:47:20,424
nice to say, don't say it all.

980
00:47:20,424 --> 00:47:21,674
So I appreciate that if

981
00:47:21,685 --> 00:47:22,645
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

982
00:47:22,694 --> 00:47:24,524
I am very sensitive and I'm

983
00:47:25,465 --> 00:47:26,285
good rule life.

984
00:47:26,345 --> 00:47:26,775
Yeah, yeah,

985
00:47:26,829 --> 00:47:30,393
Yeah, but I mean, if you feel like
you have to, you know, this is

986
00:47:30,393 --> 00:47:32,339
something you I respect that too, so,

987
00:47:32,565 --> 00:47:33,505
yeah, no fair play.

988
00:47:33,645 --> 00:47:33,875
Fair

989
00:47:34,029 --> 00:47:34,379
that's how

990
00:47:34,445 --> 00:47:39,515
So is Seller Basics predominantly
for Amazon sellers or is it

991
00:47:39,535 --> 00:47:40,905
e com businesses as well?

992
00:47:41,609 --> 00:47:44,259
I think there's, I think it's
for, I think it's for both.

993
00:47:44,409 --> 00:47:48,869
I think that there's a definite benefit
that Amazon sellers get because we're

994
00:47:48,869 --> 00:47:52,279
so good at the account suspension stuff
with Amazon that's not really a thing

995
00:47:52,329 --> 00:47:54,779
that happens on, you know, Shopify.

996
00:47:55,089 --> 00:47:57,059
I say Shopify, you know
what I mean, website.

997
00:47:57,565 --> 00:47:57,965
yeah.

998
00:47:58,844 --> 00:48:02,974
Um, we're so good with the marketplaces
like Amazon, Walmart, that it's certainly

999
00:48:02,974 --> 00:48:06,934
a benefit, but we, it's so cheap at
100 a month to have access to legal.

1000
00:48:06,974 --> 00:48:10,584
Um, when you're a member to not only
is your, our, our legal services

1001
00:48:10,584 --> 00:48:14,914
are cheaper, oftentimes flat rated,
like filing a trademark, um, things

1002
00:48:14,915 --> 00:48:18,174
like that, um, are substantially
cheaper when you're a member.

1003
00:48:18,174 --> 00:48:20,214
So I think it's, it's for both.

1004
00:48:20,214 --> 00:48:22,594
I mean, I think no matter what
you're selling, I've had cases.

1005
00:48:22,594 --> 00:48:25,774
I mean, I had a case once where,
or a guy was filling shower heads

1006
00:48:25,774 --> 00:48:27,294
on a Shopify site and, Yeah.

1007
00:48:27,764 --> 00:48:33,014
Got fined by California for, you know,
six figures, um, because the, the

1008
00:48:33,014 --> 00:48:36,854
shower heads they were selling were
good for 49 States, but not California.

1009
00:48:36,854 --> 00:48:40,504
So, I mean, I don't see why this wouldn't
be a good program for in the e commerce

1010
00:48:41,459 --> 00:48:44,579
Um, you know, it's a great way to
just kind of get a relationship

1011
00:48:44,579 --> 00:48:47,309
with a lawyer and because it's a
hundred bucks a month, like you're

1012
00:48:47,309 --> 00:48:50,039
controlling the call, like you're not
gonna, we don't do surprise billing.

1013
00:48:50,069 --> 00:48:51,389
We're not gonna get a
surprise bill in the mail.

1014
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:52,439
We don't do that.

1015
00:48:52,979 --> 00:48:53,669
Um, you know,

1016
00:48:53,715 --> 00:48:55,385
And are you, um, are you for U.

1017
00:48:55,385 --> 00:48:55,555
S.

1018
00:48:55,565 --> 00:48:56,235
clients or U.

1019
00:48:56,235 --> 00:48:56,425
S.

1020
00:48:56,425 --> 00:48:56,755
law?

1021
00:48:57,305 --> 00:48:57,845
Uh,

1022
00:48:58,049 --> 00:48:59,699
it's, we're predominantly US law.

1023
00:48:59,699 --> 00:49:02,549
We can dabble a little bit in other
states countries depending on what we do,

1024
00:49:02,554 --> 00:49:07,859
but predominantly US law, meaning, but
because most of our clients are selling

1025
00:49:07,859 --> 00:49:12,929
in the us even if they're UK based or U
Europe based or you know, Romanian based.

1026
00:49:13,324 --> 00:49:15,224
Like, because our clients, because the U.

1027
00:49:15,224 --> 00:49:15,354
S.

1028
00:49:15,374 --> 00:49:18,314
usually represents the biggest market,
we, we do have clients from all over

1029
00:49:18,314 --> 00:49:21,864
the world, like, but, you know, yeah,
we may have, but we, you know, look,

1030
00:49:21,884 --> 00:49:24,354
I have a network of lawyers, like,
I have, I have lawyers in the U.

1031
00:49:24,354 --> 00:49:24,544
K.

1032
00:49:24,544 --> 00:49:27,014
that I'm very good friends with, I have
lawyers, you know, who do this stuff,

1033
00:49:27,014 --> 00:49:29,784
I have lawyers in Australia who do this
stuff, so, I mean, if, if a client comes

1034
00:49:29,784 --> 00:49:32,074
to me and they're a member and they
answer this really quirky question,

1035
00:49:32,504 --> 00:49:35,104
more likely than not, I'll be able
to go out and source that answer for

1036
00:49:35,104 --> 00:49:39,164
them, source some, some semblance, you
know, some guidance on that and where

1037
00:49:39,164 --> 00:49:44,459
they want to go from Um, so, so, you
know, we try to serve, Uh, as much as

1038
00:49:44,459 --> 00:49:46,719
we can our clients as much as we can.

1039
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:53,079
So do our very best to support to support
all clients from all marketplaces or e

1040
00:49:53,079 --> 00:49:55,359
commerce platforms and from all countries.

1041
00:49:55,705 --> 00:49:56,325
Fantastic.

1042
00:49:56,565 --> 00:49:57,275
Well, that's great.

1043
00:49:57,615 --> 00:49:59,035
So sellerbasics.

1044
00:49:59,075 --> 00:49:59,265
com.

1045
00:49:59,265 --> 00:50:03,475
We will of course link to that
in the show notes as well.

1046
00:50:04,255 --> 00:50:05,955
Paul, listen, uh, been great.

1047
00:50:05,975 --> 00:50:06,315
There you go.

1048
00:50:06,315 --> 00:50:06,965
Show the business card.

1049
00:50:07,265 --> 00:50:08,375
Uh, it's been great.

1050
00:50:08,375 --> 00:50:10,545
Um, it's been great chatting to you.

1051
00:50:10,555 --> 00:50:13,745
I've enjoyed the conversation
and I've enjoyed the fact you've

1052
00:50:13,745 --> 00:50:16,155
actually brought humor to something
which could have been quite dry.

1053
00:50:16,565 --> 00:50:21,415
Um, so, uh, great to join you today and
thanks for your, your advice and input.

1054
00:50:22,895 --> 00:50:24,395
It's been an absolute pleasure, my friend.

1055
00:50:25,094 --> 00:50:26,124
It's been absolute blast, man.

1056
00:50:26,144 --> 00:50:30,784
Anytime you need to come back
and drop some knowledge, I think.

1057
00:50:30,884 --> 00:50:31,874
No, just so cheesy.

1058
00:50:31,874 --> 00:50:32,384
I'm sorry.

1059
00:50:32,584 --> 00:50:36,084
Um, yeah, I'm always happy.

1060
00:50:36,264 --> 00:50:37,474
I'm always happy to do that.

1061
00:50:37,514 --> 00:50:37,814
So

1062
00:50:37,875 --> 00:50:39,385
Always happy to do cheesy.

1063
00:50:39,385 --> 00:50:39,975
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1064
00:50:40,034 --> 00:50:42,794
Yeah, it ain't easy being cheesy, right?

1065
00:50:43,355 --> 00:50:44,455
It ain't easy being cheesy.

1066
00:50:44,685 --> 00:50:47,075
That's a good cheese, uh,
t shirt slogan, isn't it?

1067
00:50:47,825 --> 00:50:48,885
That was brilliant, brilliant.

1068
00:50:48,885 --> 00:50:50,265
Paul, thank you so much, man.

1069
00:50:50,265 --> 00:50:54,245
And also, Big shout out to today's
show sponsor, e commerce cohort.

1070
00:50:54,265 --> 00:50:57,325
Do check out the free training that
I mentioned at ecommercecycles.

1071
00:50:57,395 --> 00:50:57,755
com.

1072
00:50:58,165 --> 00:51:00,935
Also, be sure to follow e commerce
podcasts wherever you get your

1073
00:51:00,955 --> 00:51:03,895
podcasts from, because we've got yet
more great conversations lined up.

1074
00:51:04,345 --> 00:51:07,265
And I don't want you to miss any of them.

1075
00:51:07,555 --> 00:51:09,975
And in case no one has told you
yet today, dear listener, let me

1076
00:51:09,975 --> 00:51:13,345
be the first person to tell you,
you are awesome, created awesome.

1077
00:51:13,355 --> 00:51:14,765
It's just a burden you have to bear.

1078
00:51:15,415 --> 00:51:16,265
Paul has to bear it.

1079
00:51:16,445 --> 00:51:17,345
I have to bear it

1080
00:51:17,359 --> 00:51:17,389
Okay.

1081
00:51:18,145 --> 00:51:18,645
every day.

1082
00:51:18,685 --> 00:51:20,925
We've just got to bear this
problem, but it is what it is.

1083
00:51:21,135 --> 00:51:25,105
Uh, so the e commerce podcast
is produced by Aurion Media.

1084
00:51:25,105 --> 00:51:28,965
You can find our entire archive of
episodes on your favorite podcast app.

1085
00:51:29,335 --> 00:51:32,665
The team that makes this show
possible is Sadaf Beynon, Tanya

1086
00:51:33,355 --> 00:51:37,395
Hutsuliak, uh, and a whole bunch of
other people, uh, in, in the team.

1087
00:51:37,675 --> 00:51:39,505
We've got the music by Josh Edmundson.

1088
00:51:39,665 --> 00:51:42,305
As I mentioned, if you'd like the
show notes or transcript, head over

1089
00:51:42,305 --> 00:51:43,315
to the website ecommercepodcast.

1090
00:51:43,315 --> 00:51:44,059
com.

1091
00:51:44,900 --> 00:51:46,160
You'll find everything there.

1092
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:47,800
So that's it from me.

1093
00:51:47,820 --> 00:51:48,860
That's it from Paul.

1094
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:50,390
Thank you so much for joining us.

1095
00:51:50,710 --> 00:51:52,460
Have a fantastic week,
wherever you are in the world.

1096
00:51:52,720 --> 00:51:53,550
I'll see you next time.

1097
00:51:54,110 --> 00:51:54,520
Bye for now.