On this episode of the Dudes and Dads podcast, we talk about teen dating.
You're listening to the Dudes and Dads podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better
dudes and dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.
And now, here are your hosts, Joel DeMott and Andy Lehman.
Joel.
Andy.
It's a sad day.
Oh, is it?
Notre Dame lost last night.
Oh.
And that was a terrible loss.
They should not have lost.
It was a rough game.
It was a terrible game.
Rough, rough game.
Not sure what's going on with all of that.
And well, thankfully, the NFL season is upon us.
And I'm more of a college fan though.
I'm going to admit.
Yep.
I get it.
I'm hoping for something to look forward to in football.
That's really what we're all talking about.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the Dudes and Dads podcast.
Glad that each and every one of you are here.
Looking forward to jumping into our conversation this evening.
But first and foremost, Andy, how's life?
How are you doing?
Life.
Life is doing pretty good.
I'm really enjoying what we're doing tonight.
So we have a live studio audience kind of tonight.
A live studio audience.
So we decided to do a Zoom room.
This is something that we've toyed around with before.
We did it for some of our Patreon supporters, but no one ever showed up.
So I thought, hey, you know what?
Let's invite everybody.
Yeah.
Because this is fun.
And so we did.
And we have Jeremy hanging out with us tonight.
And he's just, he's doing work.
He's working and he's here till 6 a.m.
Hopefully the show doesn't go till 6 a.m.
We'll definitely shut down before that.
But that's awesome.
We'll definitely have Jeremy and anybody else that wants to come on and hang out for a bit.
So dudesanddads.com/join will get you on that.
And we're also doing our normal stream we're doing to all YouTubes.
I couldn't think of the word I was trying to put there.
And Jeremy says, "Glad to be here."
So Jeremy, yes, thanks for hanging out with us.
That's awesome, man.
Cool.
Yes.
And then how am I doing, Andy?
I'm glad you asked.
I was going to get to that.
I promise I was.
God, I'm kidding.
I promise I was.
No, we're doing well.
I don't know how you feel, Andy, but it's this time of year where you're hopefully starting
to get into the rhythm of school with the kids back on some level of schedule.
Yes.
Yes, I'm getting there.
And I will say for those, as we've shared with friends.
So Josiah, son number two, is in a different school corporation this year.
Yes.
He's transferred over with the layman kids over to Fairfield Community Schools.
And it's going so well.
And we've just been welcomed, just very well welcomed into that school community.
And we have some people that we know and they're already over there and they've come and said
hello to us at football games and all that good stuff.
So it's going well, but I do this year have four kids in four different school buildings.
We acutely feel that the schedule, if ever there was a need to make sure, as far as Jackie
and I are concerned, and the kids just that our schedules are up to date and calendars
are accurate, boy, it's now.
It's tough when you have kids in one school, let alone in four different schools.
We have them in two different schools right now.
We know with Hattie being in the elementary and others being at the junior or at the high
school, they're all in high school now.
So yeah, it's been interesting to have them in the different schools.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And yeah, it just feels there's more to keep track of.
So we're doing okay so far.
We haven't left anybody.
You haven't left anyone at the school?
We've picked up people who they need to be picked up and mostly got them dropped off
where they need to get dropped off to and all of that.
But yeah, just so grateful to kind of be in a rhythm.
Rhythms are good and having some schedule is kind of, I don't know, because toward the
end of the summer, it's just like kids, you need to get back in school.
We need to get some sanity back into our schedule.
So anyway, it's good to be there now.
Andy, what else do we need to say?
Do we need to thank somebody?
We do need to thank somebody.
We want to thank Everence Financial for their support.
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Learn and more at Everence.com/medicare-monday.
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SIPC.
Wow.
Everence, we love you.
We're grateful for you.
Yes, we do.
Love it.
Let's see here, Andy.
So recently, in addition, before we jump into our topic, we've had over the years, I love
we can say over the years now because we've been at this a little bit, but we've always
had such really, really great support from our listening community, people that have
just shown up for us, all the way back in the days, beginning, so we joke about this
now, it's a true story.
This podcast began on a wing and a prayer on borrowed equipment at every which way,
things that we found that we found that no one else was using that we could kind of piece
together this podcast.
And that began in the conference room of our good friend, Clark, Dr. Clark.
I'm sorry, Clark Kaufman, who was so generous to let us.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and we, you know, we did that we were in a few different spots and finally we are
in our studio where we are now.
And so along the way, as we've been building this podcast and trying to keep up keep a
certain level, which we have heard time and time again, this is a major credit to the
work that Andy has done on the technology side.
We've heard time and time again, is that the quality sound quality and the production quality
of this podcast are people try to say it nicely, but they're like, it's way better than I thought
it, I thought it would be right.
Cause we're not, obviously we're not, we don't have millions of dollars of budget and all
production staff and all of this.
Right.
But that quality in our kind of sustainability in that area has been because we have people
have come alongside of us and helped us improve our, our equipment and have kind of, you know,
kind of gotten us what we need to do as, as essentially a good of a job as we, as we can.
And we appreciate that.
And we do.
We just think we feel like we have the best, we have the best audience with best community
around us.
Like we're really fortunate.
And so we've kind of run into our next, I guess what you say, technology challenge,
so to speak for something that we need kind of for the sustainability and just general,
like production of the show.
Yeah.
So, so we've been using a borrowed laptop, a work laptop, my work laptop to do this show
and the editing down to the video down to every, every part of the show, this technology
really is, is my laptop.
And with restrictions, they're starting to put more and more and more restrictions on
because you work for a financial institution, which makes sense.
And so they're putting more and more restrictions on the laptop of what I can do and can't do
with it.
And so with that, we, we, we won't be able to use it much longer to do this show.
And so we're in need of a new laptop.
And so again, this is because we're doing so much video and audio production with it.
It needs to be a high end laptop.
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We would greatly appreciate it.
But again, like just with, with the restrictions coming down, like we feel like we need to
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So, so dudesanddads.com/help, if you would love to help out.
Nice.
Perfect.
Appreciate you all.
Well, that's the beginning of our, of our, we'll call that our beginning of our computer
campaign right there.
So thank you everyone in advance for your help.
Hey Andy, we were discussing topics for this show and it was like, what, what do we want
to bring somebody in?
Or did we want to have a conversation between the two of us?
Cause that, that can be good from time to time.
And and I said, cause this has been on my mind and I think it's a sphere that both of
us are to varying degrees, navigating, having conversations with, with our, with our spouses
and with our children, talking on the topic of dating of our kids, dating the, or whether
they're able to date or not at all, or, and if they are, when are they able to?
And, and all of the fine details in between.
And so I've just been, I've been thinking about this because and, and I'm, let me say
at the outset, and I think you're probably, I'm, you're probably in the same boat as I
am.
I want to be careful.
My kids, our kids listen to this show and their friends listen to this show.
And so I want to be respectful because we're gonna be talking about our children to a certain
degree.
And I want to be respectful of them and their significant others slash close friends or
people that they are maybe in these sort of relationships with.
Cause I don't, I was the thing to myself, it's like, man, I don't want ever want my
kids to feel like whatever they talk to me about, like on the podcast, whatever it's
kind of like, yeah.
And it's kind of like comedians where it's like, oh, that's, you're just gonna be a new
material for new kids.
And same thing, you're going to be a sermon title.
Absolutely.
So yeah.
Joel, like, yeah, for me, I know let's talk a little bit about initial feelings, you know,
when we first mentioned this topic and you mentioned this topic and, and we've been,
Julie and I have been kind of discussing it on and off because one of our children is,
seems to be more interested in that, that life, the dating life than the other ones
do.
And so we've been, we've been chatting about that a little bit.
And so, yeah, what, what feelings for you come up when I say, Hey, Joel, if I'm honest.
Yeah.
This is the thing I, when I was pondering this question, I think there's just a lot
of fear.
I think if I'm really honest with you, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of fear and
I've really been trying to dig into why I am so fearful about it because it, it, it,
at this stage in life, you know, when, when our, with our kids at this adolescent, so
Aaron right now is 14 will be 15 here.
End of November, Josiah is 13.
It feels like these relationships, I don't know that, that my kids' relationships are
so important.
I'm number one, I'm very, very clear about how important their close relationships are.
And I'm very, very clear about when the relationships are going well in their circles, how I see
my kids kind of flourishing and, you know, they're engaged and they seem happy and they're
like, they're doing well.
And when there's a relationship that's sideways and that could be any kind of relationship
that's close to their circle.
It's like, I don't know if I would say devastating, but it matters.
It matters really significantly, not unlike us as, as adults.
But I think as we get older, we learn to navigate some of that stuff.
And probably by the time we're adults, hopefully you feel this way about me.
We've, we've kind of settled in on like a, who are core people are these are people.
It's like, okay, I can trust these people.
I can be vulnerable with them.
This is my tribe.
These are my people.
I'm not constantly worried about like my circle of friends.
Cause I just, I know who they are and it's, you know, whereas my kids are still forming
that.
Right.
And so that comes into terms with like the dating relationships.
And so there's number one, there's fear of, Hey, if they put themselves out there, make
themselves vulnerable to a relationship and it goes bad.
That's one thing.
Ooh, what's that going to mean for them?
Right.
Well, well, I mean, honestly, it, it could be anything.
I mean, it could be ending, especially if there's friendships that go with that, you
know, you're, let's say you're dating somebody who, who is friends with the person you're
dating and you're friends with them and yeah, it could definitely go sideways and that would
be bad.
Well, and, and then obviously just for them, like it, it's not just a single, yeah, to
your point, it's not just a single relationship.
It's like the network.
It's like the network of relationships that are involved.
Yeah.
Especially, especially in high school, because usually again, you're friends with those people
and it's, it's yeah.
Not just, yeah, yeah.
Not just, not just something that it's a single person dating.
So yeah, there's, there's fear on that.
They're just the, and I think the other thing is, is that, and this is where maybe this
is the PG 13 part of the show, like cover years.
Yeah.
There's all of you there's and my, and mind you, I read a pretty lengthy research piece
from, from Pew research and which we've got some statistics from it to talk about, but
you know the, the average age where where teens are beginning to have enter into sexual
relationships is, is right around that.
As soon as they turn fit, basically like right at 15, like you start seeing like a pretty
significant increase increase at 15 to 17 range.
And you know, my oldest son being there you know, approaching 15.
I think that's the other, the other thing too, like really understanding like man have
an asking the question, have we poured into him all the resources that he needs to make
wise choices in his relationships?
Have we had the appropriate conversations?
Are we continuing?
Cause the, the conversation that we've said this on other shows, the conversation is different
kind of as he gets older, there's, there's more, right.
More to it.
Right.
So there's kind of a, there can be an anxiety around that of like I want you, like, I really
hope that you will make the right choices and not make choices that are going to, they're
going to harm you or sideline you.
I think that that happens in, in any, any, anything, not just dating though.
Right.
I mean, that's something that, that we've been talking about.
So I've got an 18 year old, a 17 year old, you know, on down the line.
And so we've been kind of talking about that all along.
You know, the, those are the things that I hope that I've instilled in, in all of my
children, my, the values that I hold, but I also, you know, for everything, not, not
just dating.
Yeah.
And, and, and that's where it's like, now it feels like, and this is maybe this is about
me just as much as anything where it's like, Oh, now I get to see my impact on display
a little bit, like in terms of how they're, you know, what they're taking on and what
they're internalizing, even though this whole time they might've been, I mean, I know that
so many times when we're having try to have serious conversations about stuff, it's kind
of like, Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Got it.
Thank you.
Like they want, they want to be out of that conversation because there's an uncomfortability
to it and all of that, which, you know, they want to be out of that conversation like yesterday.
And it's like, Oh man, I just hope that you can, you know, that they're kind of latching
on and gleaning to a couple of essential things.
So there, if I'm, so again, back to it, I'm, if I'm really honest, there's, there's
fear, there's some fear there for a few different reasons.
And and I really hope it's like, that's not the key thing with those guiding, you know,
guiding my decisions about, you know, what I'm, what I'm talking to them about and kind
of our, what our guidelines are.
Sure.
Well, so yeah, I think for, for me, when I'm talking about teenage, it's, it's interesting
because so for us, both of our boys have not really showed an interest in, in dating.
I mean, there's been some people that they've kind of liked, but never really like, yeah.
But then like my other kids, I don't want to call out my kids, but like there, there
has been an interest there.
And so like, it's, it's, it's, it's, yeah, it's just been kind of interesting trying
to navigate that coming along.
And yeah, I think for me, I'm, I'm okay with it.
You know, I noticed that one of the questions that we had kind of come up with beforehand
is like, you know, is there anything with our own dating experiences that informs the
way that our date, that it forms how we are feeling about our kids.
And I think for me, so I'm taking this back to me for me growing up, I almost always had
a girlfriend.
I kind of built my, like probably self-esteem on that.
Sure.
Right.
Like that was just something that I, I almost always, and I, and gosh, I'm trying to think
back when I, when I would have started dating and oh man, I would have probably been, I
don't know, probably actually dating, dating probably freshman year.
Yeah.
And again, what's that really mean as a freshman?
Cause I didn't really have anyone that were friends that were older.
I mean, I did, I had one friend that was a grade older than me, so he could have driven
and he did, but I mean, really what's that mean?
Right.
And I think that's, that's one of the things, but yeah, I, for me, I was dating pretty much
from then on until I got married.
Right.
And so there wasn't really much of a time that I, that I wasn't dating somebody.
And I know that I had probably based some of my, my, the way I valued myself on that.
And so that's not, that's not good.
And so that's something I don't, I looking at what I'm thinking about my kids, some of
the things that I want to pass down to them are you don't need to have a girlfriend or
a boyfriend all the time.
Like it's okay for you to have one, but don't base your value on that.
Like there's one reason to get to date, right?
It's not because you just want to have a friend that's a girl or whatever, but there's one
reason for that to find out who you want to get married to.
Right.
Because this is going to last forever.
Not just, you know, you know, so even, even as you're, you know, we both have some mutual
friends who dated, I think when they were in kindergarten and they ended up marrying,
but well, I guess I'm calling you guys out, but you know who you are, but, but for the
most part, I mean, you're not going to be marrying the person that you're dating in
a freshman year, but you're, you're using that example to find out when you're using
that, that time to figure out what you do and do what you don't like in, in a, in a
spouse and a mate in a, yeah.
In a boyfriend, girlfriend, that's the intentionality that we need to bring to it.
I think that's an okay.
It's, it's probably a helpful conversation to have.
I know we've had it with, with Aaron, like that's what these decisions matter because
you are actually forming your kind of your vision and your purpose for the person that
you're going to, you're going to be with and, and hopefully doing so in a, in a relatively
safe and controlled environment.
You know, it's not, I mean, and I would, I would go back, you know, to my own experience.
I think I had, there, there was, there was such, such social pressure, at least within
in the schools that I was like such social pressure to have, have the girlfriend, have
the quote unquote girlfriend or whatever.
And that was the middle school for middle school for me on your, your popular kids have
to have girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, whatever that starting.
Yeah.
And again, what does that mean?
Because in junior high, but, but yeah, so I also like want to remind people too, as
we continue this conversation that if you're watching in our live studio audience or online
in YouTube, which we also consider our live studio audience too.
So there we would love to hear your thoughts on this.
So type them in the chat because you, we want you to be a part of this conversation also.
So that's super helpful.
So type, type some things in the chat and, and cause we'd like to hear, hear what your
thoughts on her.
So, so there's this perception and that's, I think, so both you and I would be very,
very similar, like always having some sort of significant other situation.
And it feeling like everybody was doing like that was the expectation or frequently everybody's
doing it.
So here's the thing is I was doing a little bit of research here, Andy.
So back in the, so 10 years ago Pew research did did this project called research.
Let me see, sorry, I got a small type.
It was the peer research center did a teen relationship survey.
So this is back conducted over between October within September and October of 2014.
And then into March of 2015 of over a thousand kids ages 13 to 17.
The deal is of that 13 to 17 range, 64% of those kids had had no like no serious, any
sort of dating relationship whatsoever.
I mean, 64%, still the clear majority.
Now I know this survey is a little bit old and I will say the survey really comes the
it's age really, really shows.
Cause I couldn't find one that was this extensive more recently.
That kids were connecting heavily over Facebook back back then.
And since 2015, I mean, when I was like deep into my youth men days like it was very clear
that teenagers were like fleeing from Facebook by the, by the probes.
Right?
Like that's been a demographic that's not been, not been around.
But you know, there is this, there's this perception and there's this pressure like,
Oh, everybody, quote unquote, everybody's doing this.
I think, I think it's helpful to say, yeah, maybe not, maybe not as many as we think.
And those that are of that 35% that are really only a relatively small percentage would actually
say that those are serious.
They would identify those as serious relationships.
So you know, so it's, it's kind of like, I think the perception too, because we, as parents,
I have seen this in certain parenting circles where it's like, you want your kid to fit
in and be cool.
And so either overtly or not so overtly you're, you're encouraging them in this kind of relationship
scheme.
And maybe, and maybe we don't need to, that was just kind of one, that was one thought
that crossed, that crossed my mind, like for sure, not everyone's doing it.
And if you want to be one of those that are not participating in the dating thing, then
that's right.
Then that's great.
Right.
And I think that that's, I feel like that's what we've kind of said with our kids too.
We've kind of said, you know, it's okay.
Like, but these are some things, you know, and I made it pretty clear, like, I think
I have anyway.
So kids, if you're listening, I'm trying to make it clear, has dad made it clear that,
you know, I try to make it clear that yes, it's not always healthy to, to have that relationship
because there is that expectations.
And I think, I mean, for me, I had that expectation where I was always dating somebody, but I
think also not only that, but what we need to think of.
Okay.
So yes, you have this relationship and not only what happens if it breaks up, but this
relationship can also become unhealthy pretty fast because you can, you can, you can end
up having somebody who you end up spending all your time with, where you're not developing
other relationships of the same sex or opposite sex, because you don't want to either a offend
or they want to spend out, spend the time with you.
And so there's this healthy, like, I mean, obviously Joel, I think you, we, we realize
this and our married relationships that there it's, it's good to spend time away too.
Right.
I mean, we need to obviously be wooing and dating our spouse, but at the same time, like
you're doing things outside of that.
I mean, we're doing this podcast right now.
You're spending time away from, from Jackie, I'm spending time away from Julie.
And so there's that healthy relationships that we we've that we're cultivating, right?
Just sort of not just with our spouse.
And I think it's really easy for teenagers in particular to slip into that relationship
that can become unhealthy because of the fact that you're just going to try to spend all
the time with your boyfriend.
And that's that you don't need to and shouldn't be doing that.
Yeah.
So that sort of bears out like this this research that Pew did this relationship survey.
So when asked like what they thought acceptable frequencies of communication, how frequently
these, these people should be.
So so the so it says team data's usually have similar communication expectations as the
significant others.
So usually they're pretty well matched.
Each individual is pretty well matched on that.
So the percentage of teens with relationship experience who expect to hear from their partner,
so of the total they surveyed 11% expect to hear from their partner hourly.
So this is like texting 35% every few hours and then 38% at least once a day.
So the once a day, maybe we wouldn't like, we wouldn't be like, Oh, but and then that's
pretty, and then their partner expects to hear from them.
15% said hourly 38% said every few hours, 35%.
Yeah.
Said once a day.
So there's a, there is a net total of between 85 and 88% roughly where there were, that's
a high degree of like high degree of communication.
And I just wondered if that is sustainable in and of itself, if that's, if that's the
expectation to your point, it quickly engulfs the young person.
Right.
So, so from our, from, from our studio audience here on zoom, most definitely time together
is great, but you don't always have the same interest.
You don't always have to have together to be together to do done everything.
That's the one main thing we always dealt with with for my youngest and my oldest boys.
And now with my eldest, to me, it's not healthy.
Some can do it.
Some can't.
Yup.
And you got to, depending on the personality of your child, some of them will go all in
on that and be totally immersed.
Others are like, listen, I need, I need my meantime and they'll keep, they'll keep those,
they'll keep the boundaries more clear one way or the other.
So yeah, I just, well, and that's, I mean, going back to your, to the, the peer research
that you were just talking about, like that's, that's pretty intense when it, I mean, those,
I don't even most of the time talk to, you know, I would say every couple hours, sometimes
I text Julie during the workday, but not always like there's some days that it's like, maybe
we go full day.
You had a full workday.
I'm like, oh shoot.
I didn't text her at all.
You know, whatever.
But I mean, yeah, there's a little bit difference cause we're in communication usually in the
morning before we get up.
And you know, whereas with a teenager, they live in different households.
They're not seeing each other right away, but yeah, I don't think that that's healthy
more than a couple of times a day, but, but texting has become, I mean, even when we were
kids Joel, I mean, I'm going to show my age here, but I didn't have a cell phone until
I don't even know if I had one in high school.
I was a senior in high school when I got mine and you're significantly younger than I am.
So why thank you.
But I'm going to start walking with a cane soon.
But I didn't even have one then.
And so even then it was, you paid by the number, by the, you only had certain text amount of
text and this is really showing my age.
And then you had that T nine texting where you had to like push the letter three times
to get the, the alphabet down.
And it was a pain to, it was a pain to text.
So painful.
I mean, people got good at it, but not me, but yeah.
So yeah, that was one of the things I think that, yeah, for me that looking at that, that's
not healthy when you're having that much communication, I think with, with your significant other,
especially on a teenage level.
Right.
And as we've said, most of it is through the medium of technology of text, of social media.
It's not even necessarily face to face.
So it's kind of like, you know, well, I mean, we've all experienced it, right?
I mean, you can't really tell tone and inflection through a text message.
And so, you know, it's, it's not the same text messaging is not the same.
I mean, as being face to face is it's not developing the same relationship.
And that's, I think, yeah, that's where, yeah.
So here's maybe we get into the part of the conversation, Andy, where we talk about some
of the guidelines and rules that we have set up.
Cause I, I do want to, I want to touch on if we have had different approaches.
My daughter is only eight years old and so we're, we're not having, we're not having
that conversation yet.
So this is more of your area of expertise.
But wondering about the guidelines that you guys, that you guys have set and maybe when,
you know, and so guidelines and then touching a little bit on, are the guidelines the same
for both our guys and our girls?
Do they differ some at all?
And like, yeah, how you and Julia have navigated that.
And then I'll, I'll tell you what, where we're at.
You're not talking anything with Molly.
So no, no, and not heavy out and only, only two boys at this point.
So, so I think in our, again, like I kind of, and I've had mentioned it, but our two
boys weren't super interested until even, I mean, they're showing interest in, in dating
now.
But they're not necessarily like they were with Reagan.
Reagan has showed more interest in that and she's a freshman.
And so we've, we've kind of taken the lines of like, let's talk about this, you know,
as we talk, like, what does this mean?
Like, so you have a interest or whatever, like, what does that mean for you now?
Because like I was saying earlier, you can't date.
Yeah.
I mean, you can't, you can't go on quote unquote traditional dates because you can't go anywhere,
right?
I mean, you could, if we would take you, but.
So is that a rule, is that a quote unquote, guideline, a rule for you guys right now?
Like you having, you having a close friendship with a person of, with, with a guy, you haven't
said no to that.
But in terms of like the two of you going, I don't know that we've necessarily said no.
And I think, I think that it depends.
I think, I think you have to respect and go with the other kids' parents too.
So this is, this is, this is not just a, absolutely.
This is not just a single, a single thing, right?
I mean, this isn't just me saying, okay, Reagan, you can, you can date or you can't date.
Right.
And obviously the person or people that she's interested in are the same age.
And so I have to respect their, his parents wishes too.
Right.
And, and so, so you feel like you need to know what those wishes are probably.
Right.
And I do, I mean, we've talked to this and I know that.
And so, and so we're on the same page of, okay, this is what it looks like because he
can't, you know, whatever, this is what his parents said.
So this is our statement right now.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, that's, you've taken kind of a community-based approach today.
I love it.
I think, I think so.
We know, we know both of the other families of the ladies that are, that our boys are
interested in or in relationships with.
We we had a, probably a much more like intentional conversation with Aaron about that.
Like I said, he was entering high school because Aaron was not interested, showed no interest.
Yeah.
I'll, I'll say, or very, very little, very, very little interest through junior high or
anything like that.
And then getting into high school, it was clear that there was something, something
was going on.
Cause he didn't want to sit with, sit with me at basketball games anymore.
And that's how I knew there was someone else.
And then, and then with Josiah, Josiah just, you know, places his own trail and places.
And so we just have to make sure we're keeping up with, with what's going on there.
Sure.
A little, a little less likely to be forthcoming about that.
Right.
You don't want to, yeah.
Yeah.
So you're trying to like, you're trying to, in all of this as it is Andy and you, I know
you guys have felt this maintaining open lines of communication, not making them feel like
they need to hide anything.
Right.
These are, these are okay.
Things to talk about.
But yeah, we were, we were, we're just always super like, we're just super hesitant of like,
okay, when you have, when you say you have a girlfriend, what does that actually mean?
And how do you understand all of that and all of that?
So, so have you talked about that?
Like what your expectations are, like what they can, I mean, yeah, I know for us, we've
said, okay, we don't, we've asked Reagan, what, what does this mean?
Like, what do you call that?
And engineer or not junior high, but at your age, what do you, what does it people call
what you're doing?
Yeah.
And she said talking.
Yeah.
And so like, I'm trying to understand that as an apparent, like, okay, what does that
involve?
Like, is that the same as dating like, or is there a difference to that?
And what does that mean?
Do you think that this is how old we are?
Is that, is that the new cultural, is that the new cultural I'd be interested.
I need to hear it from like the young people.
Is that the new, is that the new label?
Like, Hey, there's, there's talking.
And then there's dating is that are these like, cause I've heard that I've heard that
like, Oh, we're just talking.
I think it's a little bit like seeing each other or whatever, like what I think we would
have done in junior high where you're like, I had this warm, fuzzy relationship.
We're going out, but we're not really like dating.
Like I think it'd be the same as going out, but you're not dating cause you're not going
on dates.
It would be more of, yeah, something, there's something different or special about this
relationship.
I see you at school and we have this, like, we like each other.
Yes.
There's a connection.
You know, that I like you and you know that you like me and we know that hopefully, and
hopefully maybe you're not liking other people the same way.
You're right.
Same way you're like, Hey, yeah.
And so I think, I think that's what would be considered talking.
I should have got Reagan's definition for this show.
We'll follow up on the, on the new, on the new relationship definition.
She probably won't tell me she's, she's gonna, she's like, I can't give you inside access
to the secret world of the, of the terms.
Yeah.
So, yeah, we have, we have taken, I think we're probably our sort of expectations.
So our expectations were basically we've, we've just said, we've just said number one,
you know, kind of, I don't know, it uncovered some things that were within me that I found
uncomfortable where it's like having, you know, obviously we're having the, the quote
unquote, the talk, you know, with, with Aaron and then it becomes kind of more like, but
at the same time, does that mean, I mean, we, you've, you've said that according to
research, like getting in a relationship is more likely to lead to sexual activity or
whatever, right around age 15.
Right.
So does that mean that's something that you should be having?
I mean, yes, I think you should as Josiah, but like, how do you guys treat that?
Because I mean, especially if he's dating, I'll just tell you, I'll tell you what was
a huge relief and a huge confirmation for us.
And the God God was very good to us on this.
Aaron was able, Aaron was able to, Aaron's significant other we've, we've met the parents
and all of that know who they are.
You were able to have the conversation and it will definitely able to confirm that both
of them have the same expectations and boundaries in their, in their, in their relationship.
And that particularly, and I was, I just was very, very proud of both of them where it
was just like it's like a non-star like it's a non-starter for them.
Like this is, this is what, you know, us being at this age and non-married, this is, these
are the boundaries for our relationship.
Right.
And it's like, now you and I both know that those boundaries will be tested as they, as
they get older, as they have more freedoms, all of that, but they have at least decided
right now that what, you know, what they, what they want that relationship to look like.
Meanwhile, they're inevitably going to be having friends or people around them or that
they know about that are not, that are not following the same.
They're not, they're, they're a part of the 35% of kids in that age range that, you know,
enter into those kinds of relationships.
So I guess that was the, but that was the conversation where it was like, we just told
Aaron number one, here's what respecting a woman looks like, right?
This is, this is how you are to talk to her, how you are to treat her.
And you know, and hopefully, and hopefully, hopefully you see me, example, that in our
home with how I'm again, talking to your mother, relating to your mom, how, you know, how I'm
showing that I care for her and respect her and all, and all of that.
That puts you on, on high alert though, for you have making sure, which is great.
I mean, that makes you have to reevaluate how you're treating Jackie.
Right.
I mean, yeah, it absolutely, it absolutely does.
I was thinking as we were, as I was doing the show, the show notes that definitely I
was just thinking, I'm like, gosh, yeah, that that's just reminded me of the importance
of it for sure.
Yeah.
So I have a question for you.
So as again, we've always said that this show is not necessarily a Christian show, but the
two of us are Christians and so that's going to come out.
Yep.
And so for, for me, it was always important that I dated a Christian lady because, and
then, because this is what, what I said going forward.
And when I started dating that dating was specifically for right.
Trying to figure out what I wanted in a spouse and eventually, you know, and hope that would
goal would be for that to lead to marriage.
Right.
Yes.
And so I always said that I wanted to date someone Christian.
Yeah.
And so my parents were along those same lines.
I don't remember if they ever said, yes, you have to, I mean, whatever.
I know I've expressed it at one point.
I expressed interest in a person that I didn't think was a Christian and I don't remember
getting the, you shouldn't be dating that person, but it was like, are you sure there
were more questions?
Right.
And so, yeah, is that something that you have tried to impress on your kids too, as far
as like, maybe not a, maybe a rule.
I think it kind of maybe depends on the age too, especially as they're younger.
Yeah.
But yeah, I think that that conversation is needs to happen is, but what are your thoughts
on that?
Yeah, I would say, I mean in terms of boundaries and in terms of, of understood, like Christian,
broadly speaking, Christian theology forms the basis of how we, how we view relationships
outside of the outside of that.
If you're dating a person, this is true for older, older adults, teenagers, whatever.
If you are dating a person that does not understand relationships to be a reflection of, of God
revealing himself to us and does not understand, like physical intimacy as a gift given within
a covenantal context.
Like if there's a, just a completely different understanding of that, then you're going to
be, then you're going to be at odds with that person.
And that person, that person, I'm not trying to demonize anybody, but that person is going
to lead you and guide you in different directions.
It's always easier to, I mean, yeah.
And I don't know why you would, I get that some people are like that.
Well, I'm going to convert them.
I'm going to have, I'm going to, I'm going to lead them to Christ, which that's a great
goal.
Leave them to Christ before you date them.
I don't think I've, I don't know if I've ever seen it happen.
I'll be honest with you.
Right.
And I think more often than not, what I've heard of is that non-Christian person ends
up leading them away from the faith.
And so, yeah, so that's something we've, we've said, I mean, we've talked about with our
kids, we've I know.
Yeah.
Because it's such a, it's such a, such an important thing.
Yeah.
I mean, again, it's, that is that, that relationship relationship with God is the thing that is
first and foremost to us.
It's why, you know, it's why we're, it's the thing that's structuring all of our decisions
or should be just, you know, guiding all of our decision making.
And so, yeah, yeah, that is a, it's definitely.
It's definitely important.
Our art, I have noticed that both of our boys, one thing I will say is that when they have
shown an interest in, in a girl, they are able to tell us what church that girl goes
to almost immediately.
I don't know if that's the thing that they're that they, so I don't know if it's like, and,
and hopefully, I mean, I think it was like those things have just come up in their conversations
very quickly, which I think is, which I think is awesome.
Right.
If those were one of the first things like, Hey, I want to tell you about my faith community
or what's important to me.
Like if that's early on in the conversation, I think that's probably a pretty good sign.
But if I would definitely be of concern and it's so funny because I was at church today,
pastor Jean was talking, just asked the question about, are you pursuing a relationship and
like your 10 dates in and that hasn't come up once he goes, Hey, that's, he was like
red, red flag.
And it's like, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, for sure.
So yeah, I think, you know, the faith component is obviously very, very, very, very essential
to say, I think I would, and our two boys know that that our expectation would be yes.
That they're not, that they're not dating or involved with an unbelieving person.
Not that that is a safeguard.
Obviously that is not a, that's not a foolproof safeguard against other, other, other problems.
But you are training yourself to your exact point, as you've been saying, you are training
yourself for what healthy and proper relationships look like for the future.
Right.
And if that's it, and again, if the goal is to lead to marriage, because you never know,
like there's a lot of people who date in high school and the marrying their high school
sweetheart, and it works great or their kindergarten.
And sweetheart.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
You know, and I mean, you know, I mean, Jackie and I started dating, I was a sophomore in
high school and you know, so that does that happens.
That happens.
Guess Jackie and I, I have to tell you if we're over the show, Jackie, that's really,
I don't know, profound moment with their day.
I think it ties in a little bit here where she's just like, you know, when you and I
were like first together and we're having, it's just all that, like that fun, you know,
all that fun that we were having when we were young, you know, and hadn't have a lot of
other concerns.
She's like, did you once, did you once ever think of the future where we're carting kids
to soccer practice and do it?
And it's like, right.
You have no idea what your future looks like in that relationship, but the fact that she
and I built our relationship on some central important things enables us to be okay with
the fact that our relationship now looks like, right.
And you have to, I mean, your relationship is going to change and those who don't realize
that.
I mean, other people end up divorced where they're like, you're not the same person I
married.
Well, no, I hope, I hope not.
Like I hope that I'm not, you're not the same person I married, but, but dating looks different
when you're 45 and whatever.
But so we've talked, we've talked a lot about, or a little bit about what concerned us about
teen dating.
We've talked about, you know, the, the averages of kids that start dating and the becoming
act sexually active before they should be.
And a lot of other issues that could come up as far as like possessiveness and other
stuff like that.
Yep.
So what, if any positives, like are there, are there positives about teenage dating?
And if so, let's, let's chat about it.
Yeah.
The, the, I think the positives for me are the, it can, it can be a laboratory for learning
about healthy relationships and how, how you respect people, how you care for them and
how you have, if the relationship needs to change or needs to end, how you have hard
conversations.
Well, so, right.
So yeah, that's, that's a good, that can be, I mean, that's going to be hard.
There's going to be heartbreak.
There's going to be, I can think of a few relationships that I had in, in high school
that came to an end that I like even now as an adult, quite honestly, if I'm honest, I
have, I have, like, I still have some regrets about like how that happened.
Right.
Cause there was, there was hurt.
Yeah.
Right.
And I think to my, it's like, yeah, my dumb teenage brain didn't, you know, well, and
I think too, it's good.
Yes.
There's going to be, there's going to be some grieving.
Yeah.
It's a loss.
It's a, it's a, it's a loss.
And so there will be grieving out of that.
But that can be positive, but I think that as being able to do that, I think that as
being able to do that when you're around your parents who can take you in and hopefully
yes sit with you.
Yes.
And, and talk and help you through it.
Maybe help you get a gallon of ice cream.
I don't know what that looks like, whatever you need.
But, but if you can do that, when you have, when you're around your parents, that's going
to help you in the future when you're, let's say not.
Yeah.
Right.
You know, I, I, I've had lots of breakups, you know, like I said earlier, I was dating
constantly.
And so there was a lot of times that I was broken up with and for me to be able to learn
what that looked like during high school, when my parents were there helped me when
they weren't there later on, like when, when I had moved out already.
Right.
Yeah.
I don't want, I don't want my kids having to navigate all of those things without trusted
older adults near them.
And this is why I get, you know, there are parents that have decided and, and I, I can
respect this though.
I have major hesitations to it.
You know, they're not allowing their kids to be in any sort of romantic relationship
all the way through high school, like all the way through high school, like until you're
18 you know, absolutely forbidden.
I've been in youth work long enough, Andy.
And this is one thing I can say from my experience.
It's that those kids that when they fail in relationships, they fail big and they fail
in really, really hard ways.
Really, really detrimental ways because they didn't have this safer laboratory, relational
laboratory to work those things out.
Yeah.
They went off to college or they went off into their career.
They moved away from home.
They got connected with XYZ person.
It was all fireworks and you know, fireworks and butterflies.
How the bucket of water got dumped on the fireworks.
Exactly.
And then just was a smoldering hot mess.
And we wouldn't wish that for our kids either.
There is, I think our parental insecurities come into play here.
Absolutely come into play.
Are you able, are you able to take on the slight, the slight risk of having your child
in some sort of relationship now and having the trust and the rapport with them and the
love with them that you can walk through it together.
Cause I think that, I think that is important necessary.
I want them making safe, safe failures, more safe failures now than really destructive
ones later, later on when they don't, when they don't have us around.
Right.
And, and I think, and hopefully we can, like you said earlier, we can use this time as,
as husband and wife to demonstrate to our children what a healthy relationship looks
like.
And, and that sometimes means arguments.
And I mean, obviously I don't have good days every day.
No.
Right.
Like I'm a, I'm a happy go lucky person, but there's a lot of times that I'm not.
Yep.
And so yeah, it, it helps to be able to, to demonstrate that in a relationship now and
then have them have that practice.
Right.
Like, yeah, they're going to learn my kids, even if they don't date now are going to see
that and know what that looks like, but for them to be able to practice that now, I think
it's worth it.
Yeah.
I I'm, I'm right there with you.
And the other thing I would say, you know, in, in all of this and these relationships
and we, we haven't, and this is, I guess more immediately the focus for Andy and we'll,
I mean, it's a focus for all of us in terms of whether we're talking with our boys or
our girls, but the statistics are pretty alarming in terms of, of like with teen violence, dating
violence, for instance that there's a decent amount of violence perpetrated within teen
relationships following, like following breakups or during during the relationship that leads
to a breakup.
This again, peer research came out with a study that came out in 35% of kids.
Kids never talk about it.
They never, they never reported to anybody.
That's wow.
Right.
Pretty alarming.
And, and that in their really in their relationships about that same percentage of girls have to
remove or block someone on social media because of, of sort of, of flirting or unwanted advances
that they, that they, that they experienced within that, within that dating relationship.
Well, and it's amazing too, like just even thinking of, of the difference dating now
between dating when we were in high school, right.
It looks a hundred percent different.
We had AOL instant messenger, right.
But that's about it.
Well, I don't even know that I had that during high school, but, but now like social media
is so present.
That's a whole nother conversation.
Yeah.
That's a whole nother conversation.
But so, so again, I think just to double down the fact of why we need relationships with
our kids in this process is that is that relationships can go bad and there is a very real possibility
that harm can come to our kids, which by the way, that, that responsive, that, that possibility
harm to our kids is a constant reality.
No matter what, and we want to make sure our kids are safe, protecting them from that by
just saying, no, you're not being any relationship whatsoever is not the answer.
It's it's us being involved in proactive is the, is the key because I'm going to make
sure that they're not with, I'm going to do my best to make sure they're not with people
that would perpetrate that on them.
And also that's again, but it's a conversation with my, with my boys who I'm like, and not
in a million years, would I think that they would ever bring harm to a, to a girl and
they're really like, that's not, but I don't just assume that I say like, you know, if
the relationship goes bad or the breakup happens, here's what, here's what respecting that person
looks like even in the midst, in the midst of that.
So again, all the more reason to have connection with our kids, these and these, cause these
realities, these relational realities are, are a thing.
And now with social media and the ability for a person to retaliate against someone
if a relationship ends in really, really unhealthy sort of ways is, is also, you know, great.
So these are the dynamics of, of teen dating.
Now these are the things that we, as, as parents, I mean, it feels like a lot guys.
I know parents, this is a heavy episode.
It feels, it feels like there, there can be a lot at risk, but here's what I, here's what
I would encourage you with.
And I, Andy and I have both experienced this.
If you love your kids well and you're involved in their life, and if you are borderline annoying
in the amount of questions that you ask them and just, and following up, and that's everything
from how was your day to day, just beginning the practice of them knowing that you're always
going to be interested in their relationships.
The other day, I think just say, it's like, why do you, what was it we asked?
Oh, cause we're asking the name.
We asked for the names of his, like, he's like, yeah, so my friends from football and
like, well, what are their, what are their names or whatever?
He's like, why do you always want to like, why do you always want to know his name?
Because I do, because, because that is a way of us connecting and me showing you and understanding
that like, I care who the people who you're around and they are the people that are investing
in you.
So, um, friends it's worth, it's worth the effort.
There, there, there is so much good to be had.
Um, I, I love it.
I've gotten to officiate a lot of weddings over my time.
The best ones are, uh, weddings where mom and dad have clearly just been a relational
example and have been a support, um, uh, to their, to their, to their kids and where they're,
they have just on top of that, they've been praying for their kids in this area of life.
They've been demonstrating healthy relationships to their children.
And then, um, their kids felt like mom and dad's blessing in the, in their relationship
was a really important, really, really important thing to them.
Those are the best.
Those are the best weddings to be at.
I've had a few on the other side where it's like, this kid is off the rails and they're
making this decision and it's like, well, yeah, but where, where were you?
Where were you?
Well, and then the, and part of it is, is like, well, you were absent in this area of
their life, right?
So let's just do the hard work.
Let's have the, let's have the loving, sometimes awkward, hard conversations.
Um, it's not a one size fits all for everybody.
We obviously were, we're parenting all these different kids that are not a single one of
them's like another.
I guess that's great, but sometimes I wish it was a little more predictable, but we believe
in you guys.
We know you can do it.
We're on this journey too.
Uh, obviously we'd love to hear any feedback you guys have on this.
So you can go to our call our voicemail five seven four two one three 87 zero two five
seven four two one three 87 zero two, just a voicemail, but you can also call our feedback
line or call our feedback, email our feedback line@feedback@dudesanddads.com.
And we would love to hear from you, uh, about this subject.
Joel, any final closing thoughts?
Hey Andy, as always, I love talking about life and our family with you.
So thanks man.
I appreciate it.
Absolutely.
It's been, it's been good.
Uh, guys, again, if you, if you want to help out with our goal of getting a new production
Mac, uh, just go over to dudesanddads.com/help.
We would appreciate that.
Head over to dudesanddads.com for all previous shows, all the goodies we got over there.
Merchandise as well.
Yes.
Christmas is coming.
Yes.
The hats.
I love the hat, man.
I have a hat.
I don't have it on today.
I got, I got to get a hat.
So anyway, uh, thanks for joining us.
And as always, we wish you grace and peace.
(blows)