On this episode of the Dudes and Dads podcast, Andy and I are chatting about appropriately
distributing freedom to our kids.
You're listening to the Dudes and Dads podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better
dudes and dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.
And now here are your hosts Joel DeMott and Andy Lehman.
You know what Joel?
What?
I'm going to edit that.
So this is Andy Lehman first.
Oh, okay.
All of these years and I'm getting to see your mention first.
That's true.
I thought you wrote the original script when we set that up.
I actually probably did.
But now you're regretting it.
I get it.
I'm fair.
You know, five years ago, now we've been doing it this way.
I see why it's probably just slowly been building up within you over time.
It's okay.
The official LLC for Dudes and Dads media is registered at my address.
Thank you.
That's true.
It's a good deal.
I'm going to go ahead and do a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little
bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little
little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little
bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little
of, you know, right. I mean, I remember I remember when I turned or turned 18, I had this awareness.
I think my dad explained it to me somehow. I had this awareness of like, like I could I could
get in real trouble for things. Right. Yeah. You know, the way I would be handled within the legal
system was a little bit different, you know, not that I was out causing all kinds of trouble,
but there. But yeah, like, but again, consequences, the implications of reaching a certain age.
And in our it's it's it's different. What what has been for you guys? And I think thinking of
thinking of Michael while I'm thinking of Eli, who's, you know, not not too not too far behind.
What what have the conversations been with you and Julie about like how you decide when when
to sort of loosen the reins a little bit on something or or or have you have you done
that at a time where you have and then you've regretted that or had to pull back a little
where it was it was too much or maybe not enough and you had to adjust like obviously it is nothing
but adjustment like that feels right. It's all like what our life is when it's all just a
bunch of adjustments. No, I mean, I think I think that it's been I think I'm I not think I know
that I'm I was more tight on the reins as far as like no, I want you to do this. I'm I'm the parent
and and where Julie was a little bit more appropriate in her like, okay, they need to make
some decisions on their own and they may fail. Yeah. And so yeah, I think, like I said, I think
being when he's been eight, you know, since he's been 18, it's a little bit easier for me
because I've been able to say, okay, no, like you are 18. Make those decisions on your own.
You mentioned constant like I think getting at the idea of that there's consequences now.
What?
Yeah, not saying that he's like, oh, I like it's better these dire consequences. But there I mean
consequences are good and bad consequences, right? There's sort of the world's pushback
or response to what we what we do, the choices and the choices we make and we feel those more
more directly. Have you have you been concerned about like it like your hesitancy? Is it is it
a concern with consequence like because of consequences or I don't I don't think so. I think
for me it's more of just seeing just allowing him to make those decisions on his own. You know
what I mean? Like like up until now, I guess for me, I didn't want to see him fail anything.
Sure. Right. And that's as a parent does right. Right. But at the same time, allow them to make
their own decisions. Yeah. And so for me, it's been especially hard. I think as as he's getting older.
Now, I do say this, Joe, I think that it's helped a little bit since he started driving to
Oh, sure. Because like those things, I mean, that's one of those times where as a driver,
you he's making his own decisions in there and I'm not necessarily going to be there.
Yep. Every time he's making those decisions and I had to let go and that was hard even like
when he got his license, that was hard to go. Okay. And watch him drive away. Yeah. Without us in the car.
Yeah. It's like the very first day he would drive himself to school. It was a pretty big deal.
It's like wanted to bring some tears to your eyes. Right. Well, and and like I'm not to freak you out
because obviously you've thought of things right. But like there's so much that can happen.
Oh, right. Right. Like there's all these possibilities. Yes. Right. And you I just right now, like I so
appreciate this the season that your guys are in and we're walking it for you is what you're saying.
Well, because I like I have a lot of things. I have a fair amount of anxiety about sure about that.
Like I really, I really do. And I can't and I'm wondering I am wondering if our parents felt felt, you know,
I just wondered if they felt it to the same degree or is like our anxiousness about those kind of those milestones.
Is it different? I just wonder if it's different in our generation. Oh, and here's the right thing though.
I think that as we grew up, I mean, definitely things were different. Right. I mean, like we were driving
almost at our motorcycles, not our motorcycles, our bicycles. We thought they were motorcycles, right?
Around town and things were like today. Well, for one, I don't live in a place. I mean, my kids ride them up and down our road,
but we live in the middle of the country. Yeah. But even for you guys, your kids probably drive them around the neighborhood,
but they're not riding across town and Goshen. Are they? No. No. See. And that's that's at, you know,
at Aaron's age, your oldest, I was doing that already. And it's so funny because we gosh, this past summer,
the boys had an opportunity to ride their bikes down to school. And you guys don't live super far from the school.
It's not far away, but, you know, and I like they've got to go out in the country. They've got to be on the county road for a little,
for a little bit. And and I was like, like the level I just realized is like the level of thought and hesitation
I had about that was like a little much like it was, you know, this is like, well, doggone it. They've got to ride their bikes sooner or later because
right, because they're now like they're going, they want to go like they want to go to the park and they want to go and do stuff like that.
When I don't always have the words like either I can't do that right now, but if you guys want to, you can.
Right. So you're giving. Yeah. You're giving them some freedom. And that's the same thing. Like I think, you know, for us,
I would say it's really helped. Like, yeah, again, going back to him, that was really just the start of it is Micah.
Obviously, he's our oldest. So that's where it starts all the time. But and I mean, obviously every kid is a little bit different.
You know, there are some things that I trust you other kids, you know, some of my other kids with differently than I do others just because the way that their nature is.
If you're listening, guys, it's not that I don't trust you. That's not what I said. Don't hear that. But but it started with the driving, right?
And then also giving them freedom in making decisions what they wanted to spend their money with.
Oh, sure. Yeah. So again, we've mentioned it before. We do have the green light card and that's been great for them because it allows us to say you have these chores to do.
And you have you can easily on your phone, see what money you have in your bank account. You can spend that you can move that around to savings and spending.
And we talk we've talked to them about, you know, like, we want you to save, we want you to, you know, donate, you know, do your whole tithe type thing to the church or something, something that you know, a ministry that you feel is important.
It may not necessarily have to be the church, right? But but we've also talked about that. And so it, like I said, it started with them driving, but then now because each one of the each all of our kids even even haddy has her own card.
And it's like, if you guys want to spend that money, that's fine. You have it.
But and then we remind them, you know, we are going on this trip or this trip or something that if you get there and don't have any money, I'm sorry, I'm not going to buy you your gift because you had the money right.
And so so so it kind of started there and is moved it. So for us, it's been easier to kind of let go in that aspect because they've now had some the ability to make their own decisions on what they want.
And that's been that's been good to because it's it's helped me to let them make some of those decisions.
And then for me to also say, OK, I don't necessarily agree with what you bought or you know, like how you spent your money. But this is a good to know.
Like, these are things you should have maybe thought of beforehand.
Now you got to figure out how to get extra money or how to get the money for what you want. So yeah, that's kind of I guess for us.
Yeah, I am.
I'm just thinking a lot about.
There are other.
Like freedoms and their friendships and and relationships, like particularly as I just excited. I know this is this is coming.
This is on the horizon, like the whole boyfriend/girlfriend thing, right.
And you know, number one, obviously, setting our expectations, being very clear about our expectations, boundaries, all of those sort of things in those relationships.
But then also, like, they've got to learn how to interact with, you know, our boys have to learn how to interact respectfully and appropriately with girls at some point.
Right.
And they need and I want and I want that to be yes, like right now we're a little bit more like the boundaries are closer, right?
You know, but I hopefully am not going to be interacting with them the same way on that topic when they're 18 as I am when they're 14.
Sure.
Right.
Well, you hope that they've taken some of your values and some of your advice, but then they're 18 that you can look at.
That you can let some of that go because again, they are making that decision because they are 18 at that point.
Right.
And in our role, you know, our role and this I've heard this from so many, from so many people, a lot of, you know, a lot of clinical folks that are that really have a lot of specialty in adolescent development things.
And really, you really are trying to move in those later teen years to being the friend and mentor role and and far less the, you know, the soup, the constant supervisory parent.
And if you're still, if you're still in that, if you're still in a high hover mode, you know, over your over your kids, like there are there are some.
We don't think about this. There really are some negative, like some serious negative effects that come from that long term into into young adulthood.
And so that's that's the thing that like I'm just looking, I think looking forward to and trying to be aware of is, you know, we've all seen under like under parenting.
Right.
The super hands off approach. Just, you know, it's like giving a kid just a loaded gun and just saying, hey, whatever, you know, just just go do what you do.
Right.
Do what you will.
That's irresponsible. Parents, though, who who are on the other side, probably, and probably say like, hey, I'm going to be a responsible parent.
I'm going to make sure that I am I have a clear presence in my kids life and the managing of their decisions for as long as possible.
Yeah.
And into a certain degree to, you know, there's a concern and parents, I get this, I feel it. There is a concern.
I don't want to see harm come to my kid.
Right.
I don't want to have them experience bad things.
But the truth of it is, is that that is part of the that's part of the learning learning curve.
You know, and Andy, as always, I do like to search out a few scholarly articles on on this topic.
Of course.
Right.
So there's a couple of them that I just I just pulled from there was an interesting and usually I just like read the abstracts of these kind of scholarly papers just because they give the summary of what they what they find.
So in 2013 article entitled helping or hovering the effects of helicopter parenting on college students.
Well being and so this is what the study is, is that it follows kind of did a survey of these college students and basically asked the kind of parenting style that was used and then what the results the psychological results and impact of that parenting
once they left the house and had to go into college and know that man college you're making all these decisions for yourself.
All of a sudden you're like very like I remember my freshman year of college having this clear like I could do whatever I wanted right now and there's no one here to tell me different.
Like now there might be some consequences to this good or bad or whatever but but really have all of a sudden just kind of awakening to your own agency a little bit right.
And and that's when the you know we find that we find that happens in college and so this this article reports this is parental involvement is related to many positive child outcomes but if not developmentally appropriate
could be associated with higher levels of child anxiety and depression.
Few studies have examined the effects of over controlling parenting or helicopter parenting in college students.
Some studies have found that college students are over of over controlling parents report feeling less satisfied with family life and have lower levels of psychological well being.
This study examines self determination theory as the potential underlying mechanism explaining this relationship college students completed measures of helicopter parenting autonomy supportive parenting depression anxiety satisfaction with life and basic psychological needs satisfaction
students who reported having over controlling parents reported significantly higher levels of depression and less satisfaction with life furthermore the negative effects of helicopter parenting on college students well being.
And we're largely explained by the perceived violation of students basic psychological needs for autonomy and competence.
So these these young people felt like they couldn't have really any sense of whether they knew they knew anything like a look at like enough on their own.
The sense of competence you've touched on this the the sense that like for Michael or any of your kids that hey if I'm not here you still know what to do.
Like you know so there is a I've imported my you know my values you know what we value here we know how we how we do life here.
Now now when I'm not here that you have this that you have the skills to navigate those things on your own and that you know that you can and if you know that you can the positive psychological right that's the come from that right.
I think too that you know you've been given trust ahead of time I mean like you know obviously we've all broken our parents trust but I can't say all of us I know I have but you may be different.
No but but for but for that the fact that you know because I have I mean like I've I've been able to be trusted and I've been able to make my own decisions while I'm still at home.
Well I'm still experiencing my parents going okay but like the chances then of me when I'm away of me making good decisions in their eyes is going to be better because again like you said they've instilled their their values in me and I've had that opportunity to make those choices on my own.
And so when I go away the chance of me going I'm in college I'm in college I'm in college I can do whatever I want is going to be I mean you're going to still get a little bit of that.
Yep.
But it's going to be a lot less you're going to know that there's still responsibility you're going to you're less likely I think to feel of going okay I'm just going to do whatever I want because you're going to know there are consequences even though my parents aren't here to to to administer those consequences if you will.
Yeah.
That makes a that makes a lot of sense.
And you know these the the helicopter parenting phenomenon.
I mean it really it comes it comes again it comes often from a place of I want to believe it can come from a place of of good intentions of a desire to see our kids succeed and to help usher them through.
The research however says and with the common experience of all this is that it actually accomplishes the very opposite of what a parent what a parent desires and you know and again that that image of a helicopter parent right so constantly hovering over their kid managing managing their decisions.
The number of stories that I have heard of like we're talking about college age students here once they you know they've grown up under that helicopter parenting.
The number of stories that are out there of parents coming to their kids like college interviews like in sitting down in what is what is designed to be a conversation between administrators and admissions staff and the student and the parent is sitting there asking the questions doing doing the talking you know overseeing that overseeing that that whole phenomenon.
I mean I mean can you imagine and I'm sure this I'm I'm sure this has happened.
In fact I know I've heard stories about this too of the HR world parents sitting in on their kids like first job interview.
Sure like being being a part of of that process.
Now I will tell you if I'm interviewing someone whose parent is sitting down next to them.
They're probably not going to get the job red flag red flag.
But yeah I again was reading and reason it's reason magazine here they have an article that came out was the back in.
Let's see here was back in October of this past year.
And this is they were discussing some results of another and I'll find it here what study it was but the article reads that young people are suffering an explosion of mental health issues.
The fact that they are is no secret.
Exited depression are through the roof and social scientists are scrambling to find a cause so that whatever is driving kids over the edge can be undone.
Extensive use of social media and electronic devices exacerbated by the isolation of pandemic era lockdowns has taken much of the blame.
But recent research says that psychological distress more likely results from depriving kids of unsupervised freedom.
That's a larger problem that could take longer to fix.
From 2009 to 2017 major depression amongst 20 to 21 year olds more than doubled rising from 7 to 15.
And Jean Tweenage a professor of psychology at San Diego State University wrote in 2019.
Depression surged 69% amongst 16 to 17 year olds serious psychological distress which include feelings of anxiety and hopelessness jumped 71% amongst 18 to 25 year olds in 2008 to 2017.
This is pre pandemic years by 2017 one out of 512 to 7 year old 17 year old girls had experienced major depression in the previous year.
The situation worsened during the isolation of the pandemic lockdowns 46% of students say their parents say their teen has shown signs of new or worsening mental health condition since the start of the pandemic in March of 2020.
According to the university according to a University of Michigan survey.
So they have this whole conversation around you know what's what's really going on that social media has been blamed a lot for this.
What they come back with however is to say that social media that they're looking and saying actually there's a good heavy correlation of between the patterns of behavior and over supervision and over over parenting.
And that that phenomenon drives kids to social media because in social media they have some level of self autonomy.
Right there they're in control they have the control because they can they can speak with what they want their kids their parents aren't aware necessarily of what they're doing in it in it either.
They're kind of the captain of that you know they're the master of that universal but and and their parents as I have often found and and and you know try to keep up but you know we're not native speakers to so much of that.
And there's so there's whole new horizons and things that they can be involved in they really are in control that you know that we can't we don't quite feel like we can catch up with.
In a 2022 research survey of teens 35% reported using social media almost constantly the convergence of deteriorating youth mental health and technology inevitably attracts political tension GOP presidential hopeful.
And then there's a big rush he Rama Swami sorry always his name is challenging which he's no longer this is no longer a presidential hopeful but nevertheless he he wants to ban social media use for those under six under age 16 this was a major platform.
Interesting.
But what if compulsive use of smartphones and tic tac is more of a symptom than a cause and then it kind of goes into this whole you know the focused looking into social media to describe what's you know the cause of this of these mental health concerns but really
coming down to a loss of independence. As their paper title suggests the authors attribute the rise of youth mental health problems to increasing supervision loss of freedom and overprotectiveness.
What is often referred to as helicopter parenting the author site evidence that play is essential to children's well being in that play like activity appears to be the most satisfying.
And to fit most closely with the children's own concept of play when it occurs away from adult oversight and intervention. We've talked a lot about this with the nature of sports today.
An unorganized play of any sport is is almost unheard of now you have now you have adults organizing children's play right right in almost every sec and almost every sector right so you don't we don't have as many people just going out and shooting hoops out in the
yard going on the playground and you know game but but again that that some of that could be from just the I mean I think all of it.
Stems not all of it I think a lot of it stems back to the nature that I was talking about earlier though like our world just isn't as open and again I don't know I'm maybe I'm blaming social media for that and then in there and the the
instant like we know now that there is pedophiles out there and we knew that before right like my parents weren't dumb right they knew that there are people looking to do harm kids right but because of the fact that that now we see it so much and we know that there's
some in the same town or in the similar town or town over like we know that more and so I think that we as parents have become more protective and I'm not saying that's a bad thing right I think we obviously need to protect our kids
but at the same time so I think I think some of that free playtime that we were talking about before well doesn't exist as much yeah because you're like well what else do I where else do I need to be looking to protect my
right what what other dangers are out there that I was previously unaware of and and those are those are those are definitely definitely real concerns of things that I've I've definitely felt
that this also and that I've heard this a lot from parents these days with regard to we've talked a lot about driver's licenses and yeah free and kids up
the article states here the driver's licenses are harder to come by for teens than the past limiting mobility in 1984 nearly half of America 16 year olds could drive legally as of 2021 a quarter could work rules and minimum wages restrict employment opportunities for teens curtailing options and freedom for kids is often done in the name of keeping kids safe but involves bad tradeoffs
and I know lots of young people who are pushing off they're just not excited about getting their license you know those those sort of things in the same way but but okay so go I'm tying this all back to the world being worse and I'm not trying to be a doomsday person but really honestly though
and Joe for look at it for for you and I yeah like we we couldn't wait to get out and get our license so we could go to the mall we could do whatever kids these days I mean don't need to do that they have their friends right here right if they need to shop they open up Amazon right they bring it here right you know that they're able to to get what they need here on this
phone right and so there's no need for them to go out and have the freedoms of a job and a freedoms of you know I mean yes they can go see their friends but at the same time like again their friends are there I'm saying listen friends are here on this phone right and yeah and that's the
yeah so what's what's the rush the the the fact is though you know you are exercising a considerable more amount of autonomy and self self decision making when you when you get in the car and go places right correct right correct well and I mean I've thought of this recently I was like okay how we I didn't have a cell phone and I
I literally was driving my me and my sister's sister to a concert in Springfield Illinois like three hours away yeah and I didn't have a I didn't have a GPS Google wasn't there telling me which way to turn yeah and I'm I'm I'm bad of that right now and right now I'm like okay if I don't exactly know the best way to get to somewhere across town yeah you know what I'm doing I'm pulling up Google and I'm chatting on Google so right I remember I still remember
going to my first well back in the day the Vans warp tour member going there with with with friends in Chicago and like I think it was like man I was a freshman my first one was a freshman high school going with some
upperclassmen like my mom let me do that thanks mom by the way because it was it was it was a memory it's a I think that went into three times I mean it was it's significant for me but I look at that now I'm like what I let my kid like next year right in the car and drive to Chicago
but but here's the thing I think that has helped me a little bit so this last year Mike I had a job that he was building building pull barns yeah he was a real job right and like he was he was going early in the morning and he was driving sometimes up to Michigan I mean a lot of times he was riding with people too yeah but you know he was driving up to south bend driving you know down to Warsaw driving like he was driving these places that that he didn't even know where he was like the night before I didn't even know like I'd look at live 360
like oh he's you know somewhere away like yeah and so that's helped me kind of kind of loosen up on that a little bit but I think that you nailed it on the head there Joel when you said those memories that we look back on like when I get together with my sister and her husband what are the memories that we're talking about the times that we drove you know in the middle of the night one Saturday night we decided to go out an hour and a half to our church camp just because we could and lay under the stars like yeah just the stupid stuff like that right but things that made the memory
is that that I'm hoping my kids have the memories that they can look back and do the same thing yeah and those are so many of those memories I mean to the point are things that were not being supervised or managed by our parents right right dumb stuff dumb stuff some great stuff some not so great stuff but that's part of that's part of growing up I I think the yeah I mean the research I think as it's emerging is it's it's interesting
that we have a lot of people that in their adolescent life that have having some bad bad experiences because of their parents have been overly involved in their life and it's creating it's creating some serious roadblocks for them psychologically their mental health is deeply affected and they're all saying basically because I ultimately because I didn't have the means to gain confidence about my own
choices and really the only way that's we I mean any of us like in a job the way we gain confidence in our own competency is to try stuff some of it works some of it doesn't and we learn if that opportunity is taken from us
by our by our parent then yeah we have elongated adolescence we have delayed delayed learning and then when more responsibilities put upon us and we don't feel like we can measure up to the level of responsibility because I always because my handler always always dealt with us right we like our kids don't know what to do and so
that's the one side and parents like I golly I feel this I feel this tension we're told that if we under parent we're irresponsible in setting our kids up for all kinds of emotional distress and all kinds of things and now we're also told if we over parent the same thing it's like this
it's like this thing will happen but but as I want you to know you're doing a good job yeah right like like yeah we all make mistakes like I think if I look back on on my parenting for all of my kids and the granted I'm not near done parenting I know every time we get together with my sister and her husband they're like we're almost empty nesters you guys have a close and I'm like I know we've got a few more years but yeah but no like it's one of those things like you're doing a good job but
I want to hear from you if you can call our voicemail line at 574-213-8702 I want to hear what your thoughts on this parenting thing is like how
how are you doing how are you working what's not yeah yeah and and ultimately you know um
the way we don't even know that we're sometimes we get immediate feedback on this but we really don't ultimately know how how we're succeeding on this until it actually gets tested out in the in the world of of their own of their own independence right like when you see
you know I'm as I'm as I'm thinking about Aaron and and like I just I'm having a lot of these experiences Andy and you've you have already walked this road like it's just getting realer and realer like I have him here for four more years right and then that four will be to two and then it'll be down it'll be down to one and then it's going to be
nope what's what's next right and I think that's been one of the scariest things for me with Micah being 18 that is I've realized like he's 18 we he's still a junior this year so we have like he'll be in school who living at home one more year
but after that like I don't know where he's gonna end up yeah and I know he's gonna do great job wherever he's at absolutely but but I am also realizing that as a parent I only have essentially one and a half more years of time to invest in him
yeah at this at this level at this level where we're we're we're we're more on a parent son relationship as opposed to a I mean he's always gonna be my son but where that relationship turns more to appear as a peer yeah yeah so that's that's been tough
to what are your takeaways from this here's the deal I just think we we we we need to be able to support each other as parents need to come alongside of each other and remind each other that we're doing the best that we can and that there is no there's not a manual to this to this thing
and you know when here's here's the we've we've said this in various ways various times in show but here's what I want to encourage you if you see a parent out there who's really just trying their best and you see their kid doing good stuff tell them
tell them hey I mean I love to see when your kid does this to this to this or hey I maybe you didn't know but I heard him have this conversation with one of their teammates or or or friends or whatever and I was just really really impressed by it or you know
help help each other affirm that their kid is capable and competent to do really really cool things in life and let the other people that are that are not not a biased parent but are just a or outside person looking in that that perspective can be so helpful so I would just say if you
if you have friends who have kids who are you know are in those years where man they're they're kind of gaining further into you know further independence and they're growing up they're making their way through adolescence
let's all be on the same team together let's let's cheer each other on yes yes I agree I agree what about for you Andy what's what's the big one for you what are you thinking about now I think for me
my main thing is just investing and letting my kids know how much they're loved but also being able to step back and unfortunately I think that the other kids are going to have a different experience in what Mike had because I'm going to
I'm going to see the importance of of giving him that freedom and that ability so I'm going to unfortunately the first kids always right yeah that's right they're the guinea pig right we'll we'll do some things right after that and and it just
unfortunately that's what happens but yeah that's that's really my takeaway is just having just being able to take and have my kids
experience the the freedom I'm going to give them I want to try to give them more freedom as far as making their own decisions
well they're still under under my roof because I think that's one of the big things that hit me in our conversation tonight is is if they're allowed to make those mistakes now and make them gracefully yeah
then in college or when they move not whatever they choose to do after high school they're more likely to
do it yeah do it I don't want to say do it right but you know I mean right they're like they can feel they can feel safe now they can feel safe right
even even if we're you know even if we're appropriately parenting I mean that's good that's going to happen to the right level but yeah the the stakes get higher as life goes on and yeah like
we got to figure it out so we got to figure some things out sooner or later and better to figure them out sooner then then later and later for sure oh man good conversation yes it is Joel yes it is yeah so guys with that just go love our kids yeah man yeah and go tell them that you like them and you love them that's good to let them let them
yeah let them struggle a little bit right yeah guys hey as always we're so grateful for each and every one of you listening in you can head over to dudesandadspodcast.com for all the show notes past episodes let me also just include hey make sure that you're liking and sharing that's helpful too if you get enjoyment out of our episodes
consider supporting us go to dudesandadspodcast.com/support and we like hearing back from you feedback from you too so call our voicemail line 574-213-8702
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hey guys it's been a pleasure being with you can't wait to talk next time on the show and until then we wish you grace and peace
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