[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to How To Be Human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: In this episode, Anna and I discuss vulnerability.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat.

[00:00:22] Nina Endrst: Hello. That's my new thing, apparently,

[00:00:26] Anna Toonk: I wish I had, I mean, it's probably good that I don't, but I wish that I had air horns.

We're back.

[00:00:37] Nina Endrst: Milo's new newest obsession is watching music videos which makes me incredibly happy, but the new, his favorite is Beyonce's Who Runs The World. So we've been listening to that, which I'm pretty sure there's an air horn in at some point for like days. He's like, I want to watch Beyonce again. I want to watch Beyonce again.

[00:00:57] Anna Toonk: And you're like, welcome. We all just want to watch Beyonce. Really, really cute.

[00:01:04] Nina Endrst: He's pretty damn cute. He's very tired today, but yes, incredibly cute.

[00:01:08] Anna Toonk: Aren't we all?

[00:01:10] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I mean, that's just the name of the end of summer game. I'm so ready for a new season.

[00:01:16] Anna Toonk: Oh my God. You can feel it crackling in the air I feel like.

[00:01:20] Nina Endrst: Great description.

[00:01:22] Anna Toonk: Yeah, you can feel it. I think everybody's a bit ready for... I don't know if this happens to you at the end of summer too like, I hate all my clothes as well. Like I just feel like...

[00:01:32] Nina Endrst: I've already put my sweaters in my closet.

[00:01:34] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I'm just like, ugh. Like

[00:01:37] Nina Endrst: I organized yesterday.

[00:01:38] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I just feel like everything. This is weird, but I don't know if it's just because summer is like messier in a way. I just feel like everything's like dirty and yucky and I just want, you know, cold air and no humidity.

[00:01:53] Nina Endrst: Yeah, exactly. Things get like mildewy like, no. So what are we talking about today? I have so much to say. Spoiler alert, I already know what we're talking about today.

[00:02:06] Anna Toonk: I don't know if it's a spoiler when you're a co-creator. She's like, FYI, I need to let you know. I know what it is.

[00:02:16] Nina Endrst: Sorry. I just feel the need to be honest. I've been watching a lot of Bachelor reruns, so I'm like, oh, you guys have to just be honest, like, you know, you're starting a relationship. It's gonna be like in eight weeks, you have to decide.

I'm very, very aware of being honest in this relationship.

[00:02:33] Anna Toonk: That's really, really funny. That is very funny. So we're talking about vulnerability, and I have a definition for you: " The quality or state of being exposed to the possibility of being attacked or harmed either physically or emotionally."

[00:02:56] Nina Endrst: I forgot that was the definition

[00:02:58] Anna Toonk: Same. And again, I was hit by that. And I was curious, I mean, we've talked about this before, and I mean, there's no better time than now to talk about it again. But, is that what you thought vulnerability was? Cause it's definitely not what I thought vulnerability was.

[00:03:16] Nina Endrst: No. And I was thinking today, this morning about this podcast and how the definition may have changed since we did one for Soul, you know, months ago or whatever, and just how many different definitions there are, right? And I didn't remember that specific part of the definition.

But what I was thinking about was the part of us that's like open. We're talking about vulnerability is openness and, you know, trusting and like putting your heart out there. All of which I agree with and, you know, try to do. And then there's the other side of the coin where it's like vulnerable populations and people who are exposed and people who don't have enough resources and people who are oppressed.

So I was just thinking about the duality of the definition and how so often, especially in this crazy shit show of a "wellness" quotes around wellness.

[00:04:10] Anna Toonk: It's funny, before you said the quotes, I sensed the quotes. It was like an italics in your voice. I appreciated it.

[00:04:19] Nina Endrst: We don't talk a lot. There is not a lot of conversation. We talk as much as we can about it, but there's not a lot of conversation about the latter. It's like be vulnerable, trust, trust. And something I want to talk about today is, you know, which we'll get into is like this narrative right now that you must trust love instead of fear, which is mostly bullshit in my opinion. But to answer your question, I do not think of it through that lens, but I feel that when you say that, like I feel that in my body.

[00:04:49] Anna Toonk: Yeah, a couple months ago, I did writing with vulnerability in mind, and it's been interesting for me to realize that I need to update my own perspective around vulnerability for myself because I mean, a few years ago I was like, gross, hate vulnerability not interested. Not into it.

Miss me with that, you know? And like, and, and so I started to figure it out because, and my friend Juliana says to me all the time, and I'm like talking to her about stuff. She's like, vulnerability is the pathway to what you seek, you know? And I'm like gross, but yes, you're right. So gross.

But it was when reading this definition and seeing like the possibility of being attacked or harmed that I was like, oh, that articulates what that resistance is, you know? It's not so much that I'm not vulnerable or don't know how to be vulnerable, but it gave language for me to why I fear it so much because I've come from a background of like, I mean, I'm not a hugely filtered person, for better or worse.

And I now it like makes more sense to me because I am constantly like, within my family are like, you know, more toxic friend groups I have when I was younger, I would be kinda like a role I've really played is being sort of like the one pointing stuff out, going like that seems fucked up, you know? And it didn't always go well.

And I've also always been really intuitive. So I be kind of like, that person seems sad or that dah, dah, dah, and everyone was like, you know, and so I'm like, oh, no wonder I started to shut down, and no wonder I started to really feel that physically as such a fear, because I actually have been pretty good about being aware of vulnerable populations and when researching the definition for us, what was interesting to me besides just the dictionary... there we go. Definition, the pandemy has just made me so dumb.

[00:06:52] Nina Endrst: The book with words.

[00:06:54] Anna Toonk: It's the book. It has lots of words in it tells you what those words mean.

[00:06:58] Nina Endrst: The Bible.

[00:07:01] Anna Toonk: That's the other book. Um, that is the book. Um. It was interesting to me that what kept coming up, which is this is just random, but three things kept coming up, either the literal definition or the like four categories of vulnerability in relation to summer storms, which was interesting. It was at the top of the Google algorithm, and Brene Brown. And I...

[00:07:29] Nina Endrst: Oh god, here we are.

[00:07:30] Anna Toonk: I know, but I mean, vulnerability is a huge piece of her work that she did.

[00:07:35] Nina Endrst: And thank God she did.

[00:07:38] Anna Toonk: The intersection from reading some of her stuff. I have a quote from her that I would like to read. Is also the intersection between vulnerability and perfectionism was really interesting to me.

And I thought like, it's so interesting this one word can apply to so many different things and it's, it's kind of like, it's either a pathway to like your freedom and liberation or your devastation. Have at it, y'all, you know. I was like what? You know?

So, I was reading this interview with her about it and like, I think this interview came out roughly when the TED Talk did, which the TED Talk's pretty old, you know, and people kind of forget like Brene Brown didn't really start to be in our consciousness until like 2011, which I think is kind of interesting as well.

So, she's a researcher, she's a scientist and so like, it's interesting for me someone can be so emotional and empathetic, but as like a scientist.

[00:08:34] Nina Endrst: I think that's why she's so special.

[00:08:36] Anna Toonk: I agree and interesting in these times when it's like science and empathy seem to be having a real conversation. So she said, "Vulnerability is basically uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. I was raised in a getter done and suck-it-up family and culture, very Texan, German, American. The tenacity and grit part of that upbringing has served me, but I wasn't taught how to deal with uncertainty or how to manage emotional risk. I spent a lot of years trying to outrun or outsmart vulnerability by making things certain and definite, black and white, good and bad. My inability to lean into the discomfort of vulnerability limited the fullness of those important experiences that are wrought with uncertainty: love, belonging, trust, joy, and creativity to name a few. Learning how to be vulnerable has been a street fight for me, but it's been worth it. The difficult thing is that vulnerability is the first thing I look for in you, and the last thing I'm willing to show you. In you it's courage and daring. In me it's weakness."

She fucked me up with that.

[00:09:49] Nina Endrst: I know. I think she's brilliant. Like, let's be clear. I'm, I'm more joking that she's like your person.

[00:09:56] Anna Toonk: Well, she just gives language to these like incredibly complex things. Like I'll read it and I'm like, yeah. Yeah, that's it. You know, and I think her processed honesty is so just interesting to me, you know. And I was thinking about that, of that idea of us wanting to outsmart it. Us like not learning how to manage emotional risk. Emotional risk, I don't know about you, that lit my brain up. It was like neon.

[00:10:33] Nina Endrst: Agreed. What is emotional risk to you?

[00:10:38] Anna Toonk: Ooh, I would say maybe that it used to maybe be I cared a lot, and I felt maybe out of control because of that care. So I was like, ooh, like if this doesn't work out or this doesn't, you know, like it was very agitating, but I think now emotional risk for me has changed. And it's maybe more about energy, about am I going to get back what feels reciprocal to the energy or emotion I've put into this maybe.

[00:11:18] Nina Endrst: Yeah.

[00:11:19] Anna Toonk: But I think I've learned how to sit with it. But I understood what she was saying because I did not want to take any emotional risk. I would say for my entire twenties and part of my thirties. Of being like, and I'm curious what you define as emotional risk, but then I'm also curious because of what we do for a living. I feel like something I bump up against a lot with clients is their unwillingness to take emotional risks.

[00:11:55] Nina Endrst: I actually can't work with people who can't, and I don't say that. No, and I really don't say that in a rude way. I just, my work doesn't work. You know what I mean? It just falls pretty flat if you're just talking. And also like there, let me be clear. Like there are varying degrees of that, right?

If you're trying, then, of course, I'm like a hundred percent in, but I think if you're closed... you know, and I think about this when I'm doing readings. Of course, like Reiki will get in to some degree, but if you don't let me in, that's the emotional risk, right? This container is safe, I believe, and I hope you believe if you're here sitting with me and if you can't open up to that to a certain degree, then we really can't get very far. So I just find that it would be a waste of actually their time. And it's happened only a few times with me where I'm like, this isn't gonna resonate. Like you're just not ready, you know? And that's okay. I wasn't ready for a long time, you know.

[00:12:57] Anna Toonk: Yeah. We don't always get a say in our readiness, you know, just cause I know you're talking from that perspective, but I just want to offer that to anyone like trauma makes your readiness not always your choice.

[00:13:09] Nina Endrst: Amen. Like it is not something that I judge someone for in any way, shape, or form. When I say I won't work with them, I mean, out of respect for them and myself, right? Because I think a lot of times in this space, it's easy to be like, oh yeah, like I'll just, you know, I see people do it all the time, or they just have clients, you know, like therapists who work with clients for years and years, and years, and years and years.

That person doesn't necessarily feel like they're getting, you know, what they need or they're like, oh, this is kind of like, you know, a chore for me. For me, that's like, when it feels like it's done for now, you know, or it's not going to get where it needs to go. And I think that's true in any sort of dynamic, like love, relationship, work in that close of proximity, the work, whatever work you're doing you have to take a certain amount of risk emotionally if you're doing something, you know, that personal, right?

And it used to be for me. My definition used to be, I think, close and similar to yours where it was... I always felt like I cared the most and that was something I loved about myself, but also something that I hated about myself, because I felt like I always got hurt the most.

And then I would just, you know, kind of put out that like tough exterior and be like, oh no, I'm good. Like, it's fine. But I would be in a lot of pain. And now, emotional risk is a lot for me of who do I want to let in and how will that affect me and my family? How will that affect my day to day? You know, like what is this worth?

And I don't mean that in that people or things aren't worthy. I mean, for me and for all of us, we have to have a certain, you know, set of boundaries or limitations. Otherwise, I think the emotional risk we actually do want to take, don't get taken sometimes because we're so just drained, right?

[00:15:09] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I think I've had a really fresh reminder in that, to be honest. Like a year ago I had a bunch of shit go down with my family, and my beloved dog died, and I had a lot of heartbreak to be honest. And heartbreak that wasn't related to romantic love.

And it did things to me, and it made me be vulnerable and it, in this different way. And it made me really big time call my energy back to myself. And doing that and being really focused on myself and really, really mindful about where I gave my energy and who I gave it to and how much of it just because I was just like, not in a great place.

Like I just didn't have a lot to go around. I had a lot on my plate. And it was bringing up a lot of old stuff, which you know, is like always super cool when you're going through like kind of a trauma to have like the ghost of traumas pass come visit. And it's just like, oh my God, can it ever just be one thing?

Nope. The universe says no deal. And it taught me so much about vulnerability, and it really taught me a lot about how vulnerability your tolerance can be built like through your creativity as well. And the more I kept using creativity as a way to move through my vulnerability and like, talk about the things I wanted to talk about, you know, create more of this space.

Because I realized that we started Bridget, Jordan, and I started doing Dead Parent Club when you and I decided to partner. Like I had all these things.

[00:16:58] Nina Endrst: So, you're saying I changed your life?

[00:17:00] Anna Toonk: You did, though. You did. And making that decision in my kind of going fuck it, you never know what's going to happen. I can, you know, go over and over and over again. I can really be managing my emotional risk or whatever, or living a life that's based upon managing my emotional risk basically versus cultivating my ability to be vulnerable.

[00:17:24] Nina Endrst: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I want more of that. Yeah.

[00:17:28] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And flipping that it's changed my life. You know, like I wrote my bio for our Dead Parents Club, that podcast is coming and we have a guest packet. It's made me have a whole new appreciation also for this podcast, because it's much simpler. But if you like hearing me talk and get ready, you're going to get to hear me talk more. Exciting for everyone. And it was interesting seeing... cause I had to write this whole new bio that's like, not just, I'm a tarot reader, you know? And it was kinda the first time I'd seen this sort of like new identity that's been baking for like the past few months, you know, it was like the first time, like I caught up to it, if that makes sense?

[00:18:11] Nina Endrst: It makes complete sense, and I feel like I'm in a very different way running parallel to that. So I completely understand what you're saying.

[00:18:22] Anna Toonk: Funny, I meant to send it to you because I was like, and I told Jordan and Bridget, and I was like, wow, this is like the first time I'm really like seeing it, you know? And the first time I really kind of speaking to it. And those things can, I think, sound a bit pretentious, but I think when you work for yourself as well, like you're really aware of how you're orienting yourself in the world. You know, I mean, I feel differently being partnered with you and with Soul like that, I think feels, I think I do feel a lot safer to be creative and vulnerable and things like that because there's some protection of it. You're not alone.

It's harder. I think for me, when I'm on my own like, you're the worker, you're the talent, you're customer service, you're billing, you, you know, you're all these things. So, I think I was always like managing that emotional risk of being like, I want to be so clear so if someone says something or dah, dah, dah, dah, you know, I don't want to have to deal with it or something.

I don't know. I don't really know what was completely, uh, fueling that, but it's funny when you said, I felt like I always cared the most. That was a big thing I realized last fall, like, especially in the context of my family, I felt like I was the one who cared the most. And I was the one who cared the most about repairing our family. And really, I realize that was never my job. Then what I really needed to do was care the most about myself. And all of those scenes getting like put in the right categories, just like it frees up so much. I don't know. It's just wild.

[00:20:05] Nina Endrst: It frees up so... you can actually feel it. I mean, I can, I mean the we, right?

I was moving today, and I've been since I got out of the hospital, which was, you know, obviously like very brief, but since I came back, I haven't been on my spin bike at all which sounds like ridiculousness.

[00:20:24] Anna Toonk: No, that surprises me about you, to be honest.

[00:20:26] Nina Endrst: Yeah. So this sounds utterly ridiculous, but it's not, I hated spin forever. Like I thought people who did it were kooks. And when I, when I had my son, I needed to leave the house once for an hour. And I was like, you know, one of my clients was like, I think you really will like spin. I'm like, I don't think I will. But, but I went, and I started private, like a true spoiled little brat. I was like, I'll just do a private spin class so I don't have to be emotionally risky.

[00:21:01] Anna Toonk: That's so funny. I didn't even know that was a possibility.

[00:21:04] Nina Endrst: Well, it is in like a small town, right? And so I booked a private and she was like when she told me to stand up, I was like, huh, what now?

[00:21:14] Anna Toonk: I'm sorry, I'm on a bike.

[00:21:19] Nina Endrst: Legitimately, I was like, bitch, I'm on a bike. I don't know. Maybe you're new here. No, I was like, I can't stand up. I mean, I'm in very good shape. I obviously wasn't like in killer shape when I had just pushed a baby out of my body, but I was. And I was terrified to do it, and I did it and I was like, okay, that was kind of awful and I want to puke, but it really did something for me and opened me up to like the physical. I was never an athlete. Like I tried because you know, all my friends played field hockey in high school. So I was like, yeah, I'll fucking do that. And then I just ended up getting thrown out of the games for being a lunatic.

And I was like maybe organized sports aren't for me. My point in saying this is that my body, which has been, you know, the reason I got into this work is because of my body and the breakdown of my body and the abuse in my body and all these things that I really wanted to heal. But I was still like not confident in my body, and I wasn't confident in the way it looked in certain ways and I wasn't confident in the way it felt and the way I felt moving.

I grew up in Connecticut, like I said, and people were so super athletic. It's just so weird like they it's just like they popped out of the womb with this like athleticism and I'm like, what? And so...

[00:22:43] Anna Toonk: you're like, what class did I miss?

[00:22:44] Nina Endrst: I know. Apparently all of them. And so when I came back from the hospital, so when I started, then I got really into spin, right? It got the fire going, and I have enough fire, but it really helped me through the winter and the pandemic and a lot like a couple of winters. And when I got back from the hospital, I was like, your body does not need this right now. Your body is literally begging you to get back on your mat, to be calm, to like bring it all in and strengthen from the deepest part of you, outward.

Instead of just like getting on a bike, which is amazing, but like just like sweating and like up and down now, I'm like, can't sit my ass down on a spin bike, right. And it just, for me has been such a weird, but like symbolic thing and stepping away from it for a while was just, I need to take care of myself and that feels like an out for me.

And so how that relates to vulnerability, I feel like is spinning, just kept me like fiery, you know. And today I was moving, and I felt so vulnerable and I felt so open and I was doing so much more around my heart space and I was listening to my music and I felt like really emotional, which is how I usually feel when I do my own practice. And I was like, ah, okay. Yes, I do need this type of work right now, right?

So there's so many different layers, right? It can be in relationship where you want to be right sometimes. Another thing that I do that I'm realizing, which is really hard for me to admit and also work through is how I am with my kid. Like I'm so scared sometimes something's going to happen to him that I just, I know I'm really working on being vulnerable, but also being like letting him be free.

[00:24:38] Anna Toonk: Yeah. It's really, really, really hard.

[00:24:42] Nina Endrst: It's so hard. When I first met my husband, every time he left the house, I thought he was going to die. Like literally and that is trauma, you know, that is trauma.

[00:24:50] Anna Toonk: Do you think that comes from your parents being divorced or do you think it's just like garden variety trauma?

[00:24:55] Nina Endrst: Oh, my God. I love that you just had a garden variety trauma. Can I use that and quote that? Can I tattoo that on my ass?

[00:25:02] Anna Toonk: What is mine is yours.

[00:25:04] Nina Endrst: No, I don't want to tattoo that, but no, I honestly don't care that my parents got divorced and I mean, I did when I was little for sure.

[00:25:12] Anna Toonk: Yeah, but I mean...

[00:25:13] Nina Endrst: I do care. That's not true. I would hate it if they were together. Let me be very clear about that.

[00:25:18] Anna Toonk: I think that's the complexity of some of that stuff.

[00:25:21] Nina Endrst: It would've been fucking miserable, but I do like knowing that my family is so tight and of course things happen. But I really believe in the structure of my family. And my parents had certainly broke down by this point, like way before they had a kid, but definitely once they had me. It was just like done. And then they waited like, you know, nine years, which is a long time.

[00:25:49] Anna Toonk: Let's see if this turns around.

[00:25:51] Nina Endrst: I mean, seriously.

[00:25:53] Anna Toonk: It's been so interesting hearing my mom review her tape and it's wild. It's so wild because part of me is like, yes, tell me, you know, and the other part of me is like, it's so hard to let your parents like being a person, you know, and like an individual and to take yourself out of it. Cause like, you know, I can listen for a while and then inevitably I'm a baby, you know?

And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad that that was like your take on that, you know? It's just so interesting, but you know, she's like... cause she's asking herself a lot of really difficult questions and I'm not going to get too into it. However, it's questions. I have not heard her ask, you know, herself, not in my company and about topics that I, to my knowledge, she has not asked herself, you know. And a big thing for her is like being kind of defensive to me of like, you don't understand, like you're just so busy living your life, you know? And it's funny because I had a real fear as a child of like people having mental breakdowns or like midlife crisis.

Like that freaked me out. It was a big thing I feel like in the eighties, like it was in movies. These guys come home. Exactly. And their Ferrari divorcing the wife, getting new, like this stuff. And I was like, I don't want to do that and I don't want that to happen to me. Like the fuck is that?

And I was like eight asking my mom, like what happens to people? Like what? And I used to just ask her that all the time and she would just say, you're so busy living your life you don't know, you're not happy. Like you don't know things aren't working, you know? So in some ways it's like, I can see how with your parents, they were like, let's give it another year. Let's give it an, and then you're like, holy shit, it's been nine years. You know, like it's time to make a decision.

[00:27:55] Nina Endrst: Well what was unfortunate is that they both framed it as, it was for you.

[00:28:01] Anna Toonk: Oh, God.

[00:28:02] Nina Endrst: I know that's a really hard one. By the way. I have a really funny story about my dad to that end, because he's not allowed to listen to this podcast, but the sad poem I read you yesterday?

[00:28:13] Anna Toonk: Yes.

[00:28:14] Nina Endrst: So, I wrote this really sad poem you guys, when I was nine. My dad just sent it to me yesterday. He's going through all his old stuff.

[00:28:19] Anna Toonk: My mom is doing that too, what is with the parcels of like...it's so weird.

[00:28:25] Nina Endrst: I don't know. I'm glad that they have stuff. My mom's like, oh, I'm glad he has it. Like, she's like, I didn't have a clue, but I wrote this really sad poem about being mad. And I was really, it was because I was really sad, which by the way, for a nine year old, like Bravo, Nina. Yeah. My dad was like, oh, and then look at this funny calendar that you know, your mom and I made for you. And don't worry, I already rolled my eyes for you, but look what I wrote on my birthday. And I was like, oh God. And on his birthday, this is a child's calendar.

[00:28:59] Anna Toonk: Oh my God....

[00:29:00] Nina Endrst: Okay. Prepare yourselves. Yeah. It says my dad's name, his birthday, "if anybody cares."

[00:29:09] Anna Toonk: Oh God.

[00:29:11] Nina Endrst: Oh God. So I wrote, please refer to poem number one for damages done.

[00:29:19] Anna Toonk: Yeah.

[00:29:20] Nina Endrst: Yeah. It was wild. And my point in saying that is not to make my dad a villain he's not mean. He has his own shit.

[00:29:29] Anna Toonk: He's got his own stuff, obviously.

[00:29:31] Nina Endrst: Yes, but it's to say I was not comfortable being vulnerable for a long time. And I don't like to say because of my parents, because again, they're people they're going through shit. You know? I mean, at this point in my life, I can accept that I couldn't for a long time. But I am working on accepting that and it doesn't have to be okay.

But I think for so long, just reading, something like that and putting myself in my like little kid shoes. There is no space to, to take emotional risks. Like the emotional risk was that if you upset your dad or your mom, you're going to pay double time, right? Because then they're gonna, you know, go and my dad would like go into the corner and he would pout, which was incredibly damaging.

For years, I mean like my entire life, that was his like MO right. And again, it's like whatever happened to him and his, his sad story and his story. I understand, I understand I can empathize, but it's hard to relearn and unlearn simultaneously how to take emotional risks when, when you don't know, if you can do that.

[00:30:43] Anna Toonk: Yeah, like how's it, if it's going to be received

I think I, it took me a long time to start attracting or setting up people in my life that I could be vulnerable with. I remember once this is such a silly thing, but I don't like to go up to the bar at bars. I mean, granted, I don't even know the last time I was in a bar, but when that doesn't feel like something that could potentially give you a virus that kills you, I occasionally could find myself in a bar.

And I hate going up to the bar. I just hate dealing with it. I hate like signaling to the bartender, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, one of my oldest friends was laughing, you know, we were all hanging out and she was like don't worry, Banana, I got you. Like, I know you hate to go to the bar and I was like, oh, I never told you that, you know, like I'd found work arounds, you know, or like...

[00:31:42] Nina Endrst: Oh, so she just picked up on it.

[00:31:44] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And her like laughing about it and being like you know, and it not being a thing was this thing for me of like, oh, maybe I can be more honest about those things or transparent, or like maybe there is space in more relationships. It was such a silly thing that I was like...

[00:32:02] Nina Endrst: But it's not silly, right? Like, neither is spin.

[00:32:04] Anna Toonk: Well, it's like, it's never like the deep shit that you get to project these lessons onto, it never is. It's something basic in your day-to-day life that you're like, oh, that illustrated that to me. You know? Like that made that obvious to me. And I started, I think to try that a bit more, but I think that, you know, I was telling Nina about some stuff going on and she was like, has your mom been through a war?

And it honestly was very fair. Cause my mom's ability to like keep calm and carry on is like un-fucking real. And I laughed so hard. It is, it is troubling. And I was talking in therapy this week of like, it gives me an indication of like how much trauma there is. I said, it's weird to be coming around as an adult to like, oh, this thing that like I've healed aspects of me around it so I see it differently. It doesn't feel like her shutting me down anymore because I can self-advocate, you know, and I can go, you can have your experience and I can have mine, like let's not rank them, you know, or whatever. And she's acknowledging that, but her ability to just, you know, be like...

It comes up a lot about my father's death and she's like, I just think you're staying in the past and I don't understand it. And I worry about this, like holding you back. And I'm like holding me back how? I said to her, like this past weekend or the weekend before I was like, it says more about you that you are unwilling to just sort of open up to the possibility my father's death had lifelong impact on me than it does me wanting to explore what that impact was.

And she's like, oh, you know. You know, like with what your dad wrote on the calendar, like no wonder. Like no wonder you and I were like, let's see how much we can take care of like behind the wall. And like, let's see what we can do. I think that was part of why that Brene Brown, like trying to out run it. I really connected with because it wasn't just like avoiding emotional risk.

I think for me too it was also avoiding or not wanting to compound my own wounds around being emotionally let down. I felt so let down as a kid of like, anytime I was like, I feel this essentially, I got kind of negative feedback. It was like, you're too sensitive. You're too, this you're too that, you know, versus just like, oh, okay.

And like, here's how you manage that. Or like, okay. You know, like I wasn't taught feelings are temporary. I wasn't, I mean, granted. It's the eighties. Like, no, one's talking about this stuff. It's not just like our parents failed us. You know, it's a different time.

So in my Instagram recently, I believe it's the 31st of August is like world like overdose day or something, building awareness around overdose. I don't fully understand it, but I'm newer to the world of opioid addiction and learning about it as someone in my circle, that's an issue. So I really advocate about it. And it's strange before it, like this arrived on my own personal shores, I was already trained and for whatever reason, I've just been really fascinated with the opioid crisis because it seems so obvious. It's like, fuck the family. Fuck the doctors that overprescribed it. Like let's get people help. Like, it just seems so obvious to me, but our culture around shaming addiction in general and shaming addicts is like really interesting to me that like, everybody wants someone to hate kind of...

[00:35:51] Nina Endrst: Well, here's where vulnerable populations come in as well and I'm not a historian. You know, where did crack come from?

[00:36:00] Anna Toonk: Well, it found its way into impoverished neighborhoods, but actually crack came along from the way the DEA. I know a lot about the war on drugs and that it was bullshit, but I don't know why I've always been kind of interested in drugs and the politics around them. I think, because it is bullshit, but it's this thing also, too, that gets demonized that really like our government's been directly involved in.

[00:36:19] Nina Endrst: Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Exactly.

[00:36:22] Anna Toonk: Just insane. So exactly. I posted in my stories like if you use drugs. Yeah, no judgment. Be careful. People are putting fentanyl in people. Dealers, cartels are putting fentanyl in drugs because it increases addiction, you know? And it changes the high. It's a lot of different reasons, but fentanyl is incredibly dangerous.

It's the number one reason why so many people are dying in the opioid crisis. It's terrifying. And so someone I know OD and thankfully live, but the OD because of fentanyl, I just feel really strongly about it. So I was a little nervous about that. I felt a little vulnerable about posting about it..

[00:37:06] Nina Endrst: I really proud of you by the way.

[00:37:07] Anna Toonk: Thank you. My dm's exploded and in a great way of people being like I'm two years sober, narcan saved my life. All these people that I never knew were addicts. I never knew that this had been, it was so interesting. One person, I had an interaction with a few years ago and I thought something was off, but I also thought maybe they were very shy or like maybe socially, like had social anxiety, but like the energy was a little bit off and they were an addict. And I'm like, ah, that's interesting. Okay.

And then another person contacted me and they're just a ton of people sharing stories and sharing their stories about people who had died from an accidental overdose of ingesting like cocaine that had fentanyl in it and stuff like that. And I'm like, the truth of the matter is people are doing drugs. Like people do drugs, like, especially in New York, that's where, you know, like I'm living. People do drugs. Like it can be a way that they're like, I dunno, I'm not going to judge it. Like I smoke pot. Like I'm not judging it.

So, at this point, like I said, in, um, on Instagram I was like, uh, like hung up my spurs. I'm old, you know, but I know people who do a little Molly to like have fun or like, oh, we're going to be at the beach. So I'm like, it's crazy to think in our new reality, like we need to be aware. You know, or like these things, like, I think people should be able to do a little MDMA if that's the choice they want to make. But I'm like now we're in this new zone where it's like, you should buy drug testing kits and you should be aware of it.

But how does anyone know this if we don't talk about it? And I've always been a little bit more willing to be vulnerable, especially like, I think to be brave for other people or to like put something out there. But then I feel like because of like social media and not really like cancel culture, but like, I don't know just things are just so fucking weird now.

[00:39:11] Nina Endrst: I don't believe in cancel culture. I think that's what white people say to like, feel better about being shitty.

[00:39:18] Anna Toonk: Yeah, same. I don't, I don't really know what I think about it, to be honest. I'm like, I think it's such a myth because I'm like, who really I mean, like...

[00:39:25] Nina Endrst: There are no, no actual consequences and unfortunately I wish there were, but there aren't. And so cancel culture to me is something that people yell at the top of their lungs when they feel threatened by some shitty behavior that they themselves have participated in. And it's like, no, that's called a consequence. That's not cancel culture you dumb fuck.

[00:39:53] Anna Toonk: And I think it was also like a business owner, I get a little bit like, and I think that's something...

[00:39:57] Nina Endrst: I love it. As your business partner, I will talk about fucking politics whenever I want. I will talk about fucking drugs whenever I want. I can't talk about drugs cause I'm so naive. It's kind of embarrassing actually how naive I am. I've run from drugs my entire life to the point where I've told you, I've never been in a room with cocaine.

[00:40:17] Anna Toonk: Flex.

[00:40:18] Nina Endrst: Can you imagine? I worked in fashion. I lived in New York City.

[00:40:21] Anna Toonk: I think that's really interesting, actually.

[00:40:23] Nina Endrst: As soon as I knew it, when I worked at the modeling agency, like they would, oh God, we were, I remember once we were at a 16 year old's birthday party and a couple of the agents were in the bathroom.

I mean, it was, let's be honest like she wasn't having a fucking Chucky Cheese birthday. She was like having a rave and, but there were agents who were all drunk and shit, and they were doing Coke in the bathroom. And when I heard that, I was like what, like, I don't know. I have this innocence to me that I, myself find interesting because I feel, which is really all that matters right? Because I'm so not naive. Like yeah, I'm really not. And I make sure to honestly, like look at things that I haven't been exposed to so that I'm not in a bubble too much so where I go down these, you know, spirals, but, um, I'm working on it. But with drugs, I've just been like, yeah, there's something there that I just, I can't be with.

And part of it, you know, obviously my dad struggled with addiction. That's a big part, but one of my friends, when we were growing up, her father had a problem with drugs. And I remember like he would disappear for a couple of days and nobody knew except for me. And we would like go looking for his car places and it was really traumatizing so I think for me, I just, that was an emotional risk I didn't want to take and also I knew that my specific energy couldn't take drugs. Like, I mean, I took Adderall like once in college to study and I was a psychopath.

[00:41:59] Anna Toonk: Did you stay up for like a week?

[00:42:01] Nina Endrst: My roommate was like, I'm worried about you. Like, it was like saved by the bell moment.

[00:42:06] Anna Toonk: It's interesting cause I could see you having ADD. Like I feel like Adderall could help.

[00:42:11] Nina Endrst: No. No.

[00:42:12] Anna Toonk: That's so interesting.

[00:42:13] Nina Endrst: I had a horrible, horrible. And it was like, I was coming down like emotionally, I was a fucking wreck. It was bad. Yeah. And I never touched anything. Like I smoked a lot of weed. I drank a lot of booze, but I never touched a single drug because I was like, I'm not equipped for that shit.

I'll die. That's how I felt. I don't judge anybody who does them either of many things. One of them being that I think that the reason that a lot of people have access to drugs is because, you know, our government has placed drugs in places.

[00:42:50] Anna Toonk: Well, I think a lot of the reason I have empathy with addicts in general is I think I'm in a real sweet spot of intelligence where I think I'm pretty smart, but I'm also not smart enough to outwit heroin.

So, I've avoided a lot of that shit because I knew I would get addicted to it. I'm a highly addictive personality. I have a highly compulsive personality that I was like, ya no. I mean, I remember Harris Wittels, RIP, who unfortunately overdosed couple of years ago was a comedian, a comedy writer. He was like a real, also like wunderkind. I mean, he was writing on Parks and Rec, like, I want to say like at 30. I mean, just like very, very, very, very smart, talented person. And if you're interested in this topic, if you're interested in hearing from an addict, he did a podcast episode with Pete Holmes on, I think it's like You Made it Weird is the name of it.

[00:43:49] Nina Endrst: I love that.

[00:43:51] Anna Toonk: Like right after he had gotten out of rehab, he did an episode with Pete and talking about it and talking about his descent from pills into heroin. And he's like, imagine your whole body covered with a bunch of dicks and they're all coming at the same time.

[00:44:07] Nina Endrst: Oh my God, that is so graphic.

[00:44:09] Anna Toonk: So graphics, so gross. I apologize to everybody, but you're like, oh yeah, I get why you would want to immediately repeat that experience, you know?

[00:44:17] Nina Endrst: That is literally the most graphic thing, I think any person has ever said to me.

[00:44:22] Anna Toonk: Yeah.

[00:44:23] Nina Endrst: Wow. But again, I did not see this going here at all to the bag of dicks. Just drugs in general, but it's so...

[00:44:30] Anna Toonk: But like with addicts, like there's no bigger vulnerability than saying, like, I need help. I'm powerless against this thing. And I think something I've been really thinking about. So Atoosa Rubenstein, she was the editor of YM I think our Cosmo Girl. I remember her more from back in the day, but then she sort of went away for a while, she's a childhood sexual abuse survivor. She's got a bunch of trauma and she writes a really incredible newsletter kind of unpacking that now.

And she talks a lot about, you know, when you're wondering something about yourself, like, why didn't I do that, or, huh, why did I get hung up on that? Like when in doubt, trauma. You know, and I have started to incorporate that a little bit more as like, when, in doubt, like brain chemistry. That a lot of times, like if there's something that you don't understand about someone or you're like, what is this resistance about? Or what is this? Dah, dah, dah, dah, our brains are really smart and they do a lot to protect us, even if it doesn't like what you were saying about your clients and stuff like something that you respect is like, you could be unethical and be like, I'm going to Reiki the shit out of them. Like, you know, you could be powerful enough to get past their defenses if you wanted to.

[00:45:53] Nina Endrst: I know that people would work with me if I let them. You know what I mean?

[00:45:56] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Yeah. And it, but it's not ethical and it's not really helping them and it's not trusting their body and brain to release things at the pace that they're ready with, you know? I think that's something to think about. Like with vulnerability, like something that's really served me is doing it in baby steps. And starting, if you have a really, like, if your history with vulnerability is really fraught, you know.

Like something I started doing was not, not always trying to be likable. And if friends, for example, if we were making plans or like, where do you want to go for dinner? Not just saying, oh, wherever, but being like I'm really in the mood for tacos and like, knowing I'd be fine if they were like, I'm not, but at least being vulnerable, at least being honest, at least seeing what I wanted.

And that started to like bring down the trigger of that fear or that like, well, what if they don't give me what, you know, like it started to break through those old stories. It started to break through some of that like you know, healing related narcissism of it's all about you and what you're trying to heal. It started to like normalize some of this stuff that had been so charged for me. And I'm curious cause I doubt you did it in a big way, even though I know you do big things, but I'm curious. What do you think were some of the small steps you started taking to incorporate more vulnerability?

[00:47:24] Nina Endrst: I try to do small things every day, because I know that I... like today, I was thinking like, are you isolating yourself? And I asked my myself things out loud because I feel like there's just more, you know, like of a mirror for me when I'm not just in my head. And I don't really have a lot of old connections going, like people have been reaching out to me and I've just kind of not been reaching back, like not extensively, but there's a few people that I'm just like, I just don't really know feel it.

And for me, it's the small steps of like, you don't have to get back to that person right away. You don't have to explain yourself right now. You don't have to unpack it all because I'm so used to doing things in a big way that I would be like, Hey, how are you? Like, here's why I don't want to talk. Like we should probably end our friendship.

[00:48:19] Anna Toonk: Y'all, she's not exaggerating. She's read me these texts.

[00:48:23] Nina Endrst: That is me.

[00:48:24] Anna Toonk: She has literally been like, Hey, thanks for the text. So I'm dead to you forever. Like I'm joking.

[00:48:32] Nina Endrst: I'm very direct with kindness. Like I'm just like, let's just go our separate ways forever. I wish you the absolute best. And people are like, uh, like. Like shocked. So I'm also working on not, you know, I don't like the immediacy of like, I think sometimes for me, I mean, I will never not be direct. That's part of who I am. I'm enjoy. I like that part about me because I don't leave things undone.

[00:48:59] Anna Toonk: I know for me, it's been a real way that I trust you that I'm like, I know where I am with you.

[00:49:05] Nina Endrst: Always. And that's something that has served me well my entire life, where I can have issues with people. I like, I have no problem with confrontation. I mean, I used to actually enjoy it, which I don't at this point in my life, because that was unhealthy. I used to love a good confrontation and I'm an Aries. So I have fake fights in my head still all the time.

I'm like, and then I'll say, and then, and it's like, Nina, you haven't talked to that person in 10 years. Oh my God. But I'm working on not letting the walls come up so much and asking myself and being more honest, like, is this a wall? You know, like, are you just isolating yourself? Can this, do you not want to talk to this person ever again? Or do you just feel uncomfortable with like the distance between you? Are you feeling like you might get hurt if you say that? So you'd rather just be like, okay, I guess we're done here. Instead of being like, Hey, it really hurt my feelings that you haven't called me in six years, you know, or whatever. Six years too long, then you're definitely dead. But I hope you're alive.

But for me, that's managing emotional risk. And I have to be very honest with myself about when I'm putting walls up. And when I'm trying to push people away to avoid getting hurt, you know. And I've been hurt a lot in my life and I'm so happy for all of it because now I know how good it feels to be on the other side of that. I mean, it's still really hard. Like I look at my kid walking outside of my body and I'm like like... we were at, we just went to get a quick bite at this place it's all outdoors and nobody was there, thank God. And then people started showing up and I was like, all right, let's it's time to go.

There was a couple there with a kid about Milo's age. And she was like under the picnic table, like crawling around. And I was like, oh my God, she's going to get so many germs. And this is where my head went and it wasn't a judgment. It was just like, it's hard for me to be that free because I'm worried about like, if he gets sick and when he gets sick, it makes me worried. And then also being like please don't raise bubble boy, you know?

[00:51:08] Anna Toonk: I think something that helps me and in hearing what you said, and I, as we start to wrap up, I want to offer everyone. All of this stuff can be done internally. Like you don't have to. I mean, I think it's helpful to talk to someone about it, but you don't have to like announce it. And I think we all get kind of into this habit of thinking we have to like, be like I'm working on this wound or something like that. And something that helped me was to start self-validating and being like you're averse to emotional risk for good reasons. You know, like these things were not created for no reason. It didn't come from nowhere. You're not worried for no reason.

And that helped me start to dig a bit deeper past the maybe the anxiety or the worry or the fear. Because I think that stuff can kind of like serve almost as a cloud. And ultimately for me, like something I've been really realizing about myself is like, I kind of want to know everything. I'm not a know-it-all, but I want to know everything.

I want to understand everything, you know? And so that's something for me is like, I'm always going to be asking 'why'. So I think I got so frustrated with my own stuff and why I wasn't able to be vulnerable because I wanted to understand my 'why'. And in accepting, oh, these, these things came in. Oh yeah, of course. And like, yeah, of course with my history, like that really helped me be kind and compassionate to myself to then push myself a little bit harder as well.

Not that you have to, you don't have to do anything you don't want to do, but I'm just saying, if you want more vulnerability in your life to anyone out there who... I started to realize for me. When I first went into therapy, I said, I felt like my self-sufficiency had saved and protected me, but it also put me on an island and I wanted off the island and I didn't know how to get off it, you know?

And that's been my journey and story with vulnerability is that for me, I have to remind myself it's how I stay off the island, which ultimately matters to me. But acknowledging, because immediately when you're going to try to do something different, out of fear, you're going to kind of contract. So if you feel yourself caught between that, like, I want to do this, I want to grow, I want to connect, or I want to find love, or like any of these things that you need vulnerability for, but immediately you start to go like, but like, what if they let me down? Or what if I had, what am, I mean, someone terrible or whatever? That's stuff's fair, but it can't be what you're in service of. I think you have to acknowledge it, but you can't live by it, maybe. I don't know. I have no answers.

[00:53:52] Nina Endrst: You do know. Yes, you do know cause you just said it perfectly. I don't like when you do that.

[00:53:59] Anna Toonk: It's true though. It's true. I devalue it. You're right.

[00:54:01] Nina Endrst: Brilliant, brilliant, I don't know, but this is a perfect way to wrap up my schpeel because that was what I was starting with. Something that's been, and triggering is so like watered down, but truly triggering. And honestly makes me physically angry is seeing a bunch of "wellness", quote people saying, choose love, not fear. And what I want to do is break shit when I see that. And when I see it, I just want to say, fuck you, number one. And number two, how dare you put people in your shit.

And what I mean by that is it's okay to be fucking scared. There are so many things to be afraid of in life. And I don't mean live in fear. That's very different, but denying the feelings of fear and anxiety do not make them go away. In fact, they create this detachment that is so severe that these people you watch them. And what I feel like is I'm watching a bunch of balloons float into fucking space. I'm like, you're going to pop, you're going to pop because you don't belong that far out. You're here. You're human. You're going to have love in your heart, hopefully. And you're going to have fear and you have to be able to, we have to be able to honor, as you were saying, like, oh, I'm feeling fearful.

[00:55:25] Anna Toonk: Yeah, because I am a one with the universe. What these people are equating love to is also denial. There's that, but also like, yeah. I mean, denial, it's straight up denial.

[00:55:38] Nina Endrst: It's denial, you're not an alien. I feel confident saying that.

[00:55:41] Anna Toonk: Denying their humanity it's denying also their privilege. And it's, I mean, there's so much denial and instead it's this morality and judgment and bullshit, and they're not acknowledging that their whole, you know, 'choose love, not fear' is a major tool. Well, it's also a major tool of manipulation.

[00:56:08] Nina Endrst: Completely, utterly cult stuff. So I would say...

[00:56:12] Anna Toonk: Who wants to think they're choosing fear? Like fuck you.

[00:56:15] Nina Endrst: But here's the, exactly, right. And it, what it does is creates, I find, more fear in vulnerable people who are like, oh no, I'm feeling fear. Well, I better choose love now, something's wrong with me for choosing fear. It's like, nothing is wrong with you. And I want to like, leave that to just, you know, dance on air for the rest of time, which I imagine this podcast will be up until the end of the world.

[00:56:43] Anna Toonk: Yes.

[00:56:44] Nina Endrst: And your grandchildren will hear it.

[00:56:48] Anna Toonk: When we all live in space and our holograms come to record it again.

[00:56:58] Nina Endrst: We are so happy you joined us on this, really this journey. This one was a journey.

[00:57:03] Anna Toonk: It's true. We love each and every single one of you, and we're glad you choose to be with us and I don't know, not talk about ascension symptoms, I don't know.

[00:57:16] Nina Endrst: On that note, grounding down. Goodbye. Caio.

That's all for today's episode.

[00:57:31] Anna Toonk: If there's a topic. To discuss, please submit it on our website@thesoulunity.com /howtobehuman.

[00:57:37] Nina Endrst: If you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at The Soul Unity. Listeners get two weeks free by going to our website and visiting our podcast page.

[00:57:46] Anna Toonk: Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.