00:00:07 Nazish: there's a question many people quietly carry but rarely say out loud. What if mental health isn't only about the mind, but also about meaning? So today we explore the space where psychology meets spirituality and what intersection can teach us about healing. Welcome to Inner Peace, Better Health, the podcast where we explore the connection between our inner world and our overall well-being.

00:00:32 Nazish: And today I'm joined by Doctor Anna Yusim, an internationally recognized board certified psychiatrist, executive coach, Yale clinical faculty member, and the best selling author of fulfilled, a book exploring how science of spirituality can help us live happier and more meaningful lives. Doctor Usman Yusim has spent years working with leaders, athletes, individuals in all walks of life, helping them integrate mental health science with deeper questions about purpose and spirituality. So welcome to the show, doctor.

00:01:10 Dr. Anna Yusim: Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be here.

00:01:13 Nazish: Yeah. So, you know, before we start, I'd like to ask you something personal and something that you know, is very that you, as we all know that you have had a very rigorous academic and medical background. So what first opened the door for you to see mental health and spirituality might belong to in the same conversation?

00:01:34 Dr. Anna Yusim: Yeah, it's a great question because I did have very traditional medical training, and I did my undergraduate education in biology and philosophy at Stanford University, my medical schooling at Yale. And had anybody told me that I would one day be a spiritual person, I would have laughed. It was the furthest thing from my mind. But then towards the end of my psychiatry residency training at NYU or New York University, interesting and unusual things started to happen in my life that led me to question everything I'd learned in medical school. I had, for instance, a psychic one day come up to me and start to channel for me deep truths about my life, things she could have had no way of knowing. I started to have dreams about things happening in my patients lives that would then come true, and patients started to have interesting and unexplained dreams about things happening in my life that they could not have known that also were true. So there was a way in which I was starting to see the world that didn't match what I'd learned in medical school. And those are the questions that got me to learn more about our interconnectedness as human beings. About the concept of soul, about psychic and intuitive abilities, and ultimately got me studying spirituality.

00:02:53 Nazish: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. It has such a beautiful perspective and reframe to the conversation. You know, one misconception we often see is the idea that mental health is purely clinical, sometimes something that can only be addressed through therapy or medication, while spirituality is considered separate or even unscientific from your perspective as a psychiatrist. Where do you see that misconception coming from?

00:03:23 Dr. Anna Yusim: Mhm. Absolutely. You know, and I think that we often, you know, within the traditional psychiatric framework of Western medicine, we see mental health as being something that is treated with either medication or therapy. And that's wonderful. Those are very powerful, effective tools. But what's often missing from that model is the body and the spirit. When a patient comes to me with any sort of distress, whether it be anxiety, depression, going through a divorce, feeling lonely, I like to look at the biopsychosocial model. So to look at biological factors, psychological factors, social factors and spiritual factors that are contributing to how they are feeling in their life. And all of those factors are equally important and different for different people, sometimes more important here, sometimes more important here. But all need to be considered to really understand the whole person and how a person can heal.

00:04:25 Nazish: Oh, that is such a personal perspective. And you know, it is so powerful that the idea of healing isn't about reducing symptoms, but about reconnecting with meaning and purpose.

00:04:39 Dr. Anna Yusim: Absolutely. That is what I truly believe that, you know, if we are such.

00:04:43 Nazish: A beautiful belief.

00:04:46 Dr. Anna Yusim: Yes. If we're going to live a life aligned with our soul, then we need to know what our soul's calling is we need to understand what is meaningful and purposeful and how we truly want to live our life, because otherwise we end up living somebody else's life. We end up living a life where we feel that we're doing everything that our parents, society, our wives or husbands say we should do, but we still feel lost. We don't feel connected to ourselves and our own soul.

00:05:21 Nazish: you know, many people who seem successful externally struggle with emptiness and burnout and anxiety. In your experience working with high achieving individuals, that tends to be the deeper pattern underneath that. What tends to be the deeper pattern underneath that kind of disconnection?

00:05:42 Dr. Anna Yusim: Yeah. So oftentimes with particularly high achievers, there's many different patterns, right? People are people. So they have every pattern that any other person from other socioeconomic patterns will have as well. However, individuals who are very high achiever sometimes will use achievement in order to mask feelings of emptiness or loneliness, or to mask an inner void. So they may seek to constantly achieve achieve either more success or fame, or followers on social media, or accomplishments, or even love or money and still feel empty inside. And this is how these individuals often find me. I believe that there's many different forms of addiction, but this is a form of a psychological addiction. When the more of it you have, the emptier you feel. And to be clear, all the things we just discussed status, achievement, accomplishment, power, status, uh, you know, uh, love, fame, all of those things are wonderful in moderation, but it's actually when the more of it you have, the emptier you feel, that's when it becomes truly problematic.

00:06:54 Nazish: Yes, I completely agree with you. And you know, it is interesting how often people think success will bring fulfillment, but many discover that fulfillment actually requires something with much more internal.

00:07:09 Dr. Anna Yusim: Absolutely, absolutely. As much as we want to create external accoutrements of success that will fulfill us, whether it be the perfect family, the perfect love, the perfect job or career, the perfect body, those are all external things. Internally, we could still feel empty and alone. It's when you start doing the inner work to really understand the root of the emptiness, to be able to accept and love all parts of yourself, to clear trauma where that is necessary. Then you can start to make the external fulfillment internal as well?

00:07:51 Nazish: You know, I want to ask you something that when someone wants to begin exploring the connection between mental health and spirituality, but they feel unsure where to start, what might be the first step for them?

00:08:05 Dr. Anna Yusim: Yeah, I would, with someone like that, take a spiritual history. I would try to understand what did spirituality mean to them as they were growing up? Did they go to a religious establishment? Do they have certain faith traditions? Did they read certain books? Did their parents have certain practices or rituals that they were a part of? And which of those have they carried over into their present life? And then what is their relationship with spirituality or the divine at the present time? Do they feel in flow with life? Do they believe in God? Do they pray? What's the nature of their prayers? Do they have secular spiritual practices like yoga or meditation that they engage in regularly? And what is the purpose of those? So I would try to understand that. And then if they wanted to start, I would actually encourage them to start with something that is already theirs to ask where in all of that, what feels most aligned for you? Is it meditation? Is it yoga? Is it prayer? Is it going to a synagogue or a church? Is it doing some sort of ritual? Is it being part of a spiritual community? And then in understanding the person, we can make a really good decision together.

00:09:26 Nazish: It is so true. I couldn't agree more with you. And, you know, I appreciate this, this approach that you have. You know, starting small and allowing curiosity rather than forcing transformation. So beautiful. And, you know, I have always seen that personal growth isn't always a straight path, even when people begin exploring spirituality or purpose, there can still be, you know, experiences of doubt, fear, and setbacks. So what tends to happen when people stay grounded during those moments?

00:10:00 Dr. Anna Yusim: So the presence of spirituality unfortunately won't make our pain and suffering go away, but it will often provide some meaning for it, provide some healthy beliefs about it, and provide some tools for coping with it. And also often a community. So that is what often happens. And you're exactly right that when you have pain and suffering, turning away from it could sometimes be desirable and necessary. But in the long run, it's so important to look at the pain, to truly feel and metabolize the pain, to enable yourself to move through the pain and get to the other side. Otherwise, we're doing everything at the surface level. We're pushing it away, but not doing the true work of unearthing what is within us.

00:10:52 Nazish: And you know, it is. It is this balance between the inner exploration and practical support that seems really important. Recognizing that spirituality and mental health do not replace each other, but can complement one another is so important.

00:11:12 Dr. Anna Yusim: Absolutely. And, you know, in my profession, way back in the days of Sigmund Freud, who was one of the chief psychiatrists. Yeah, he actually helped integrate psychiatry and spirituality at all. He looked down on spirituality. He thought religion was, you know, the an illusion, uh, something that people hold on to because they're too weak to recognize that this is all there is. So there is many psychiatrists who are not supportive of this at all. And then there came some psychiatrists like Carl Jung, who believed the central experience to be very, uh, endemic and very natural to the human experience and a necessary part of human life. And so they changed the way that we see spirituality, mental health. And I think that the world is much more open to that integration at present. And that's where we're at.

00:12:06 Nazish: this has been an absolutely beautiful conversation with you. And if there is one thing that I am going to take from today's conversation is that mental health isn't about managing symptoms. It is about reconnecting with meaning, purpose, and deeper parts of ourselves that help live and feel whole.

00:12:26 Dr. Anna Yusim: Wonderful, I love that.

00:12:27 Nazish: Yes. So, Doctor Anna, this has been such a grounding and thoughtful conversation with you. For our listeners who want to learn more about your work, your book fulfilled or your or the, or the programs you were involved with. Where would you like them to go?

00:12:44 Dr. Anna Yusim: Absolutely. You can go to my website, which is w w w dot. My full name dot com.

00:12:52 Nazish: Wonderful. I will make sure to include these details into the show notes so that a lot of people can reach out to you. So Anna, thank you so much for joining us on Inner Peace, Better Health. And dear listeners, if today's conversation resonated with you as well, take a moment to pause and reflect on one idea that stayed with you. Sometimes the smallest moment of awareness can begin a much deeper journey. And if you found value in this episode, consider sharing it with someone who might need this reminder today. So until next time, take care of your mind. Nurture your inner peace and remember that your well-being matters. And I'll see you in the next episode.