Welcome to the BP Life Podcast, the show
where we bring you actionable health
advice from leading minds.
I'm your host Rob.
My guest today is Nick Dodson, a high
performance coach and the
founder of Action for Health.
Nick works with driven entrepreneurs and
executives to help them recover from
burnout, restore energy, and build
sustainable performance without
sacrificing their health.
Expect to learn what burnout really is in
high achievers and how it differs from
simple stress or fatigue.
Harmbition, modern work culture, and
consistent stimulation can disrupt the
HPA axis, sleep, and hormones.
And the practical mindset, lifestyle, and
physiological strategies Nick uses to
help high performers recover and thrive.
Now, onto the
conversation with Nick Dodson.
Hi Nick, great to have you on the show.
I think we actually first met very
briefly at the Health Optimization Summit
last year when Collette was there,
obviously, doing some recording.
And then again, earlier in the year when
myself and a colleague attended one of
your marketing events.
Now, I know you are something of a jack
of all trades and please take that in the
best way possible and that you've got a
pretty diverse background.
Of course, we have the time, so would you
mind sharing your story, who you are, how
you got started, and then we can dive
into today's topic, I suppose, which is
essentially burnout.
Sorry, well, basically,
my name is Nick Dodson.
I'm the founder of Action for Health,
which has been a business that I've had
now for a couple of decades.
And basically, I'm health and science
biohacking coach, helping high performers
optimize in three areas that will be
mind, body, and soul.
And I use DNA methylation pathway testing
to identify genetic traits that impact
energy, mood focus, recovery.
Then we create a personal plan like a
blueprint to go forward so it's
individually structured.
And this is whether I'm one-to-one
coaching or whether I'm group coaching.
When did this start?
Goodness me.
I'm a passion-driven person.
And I believe that when passion meets
purpose, then you get fulfillment.
And in life, your purpose is always
looking for your passion.
So when these two things meet, that's it.
That will drive you forward.
And I've had lots of discussions in this
area with lots of different people, and
everybody is driven in some way.
And it's usually that
thing that you have interest.
And this is the thing that's interested
me for a long time, helping people to
optimize their life.
I spent a time as a counselor,
mindset coaching.
This was before mindset coaching was
actually known as mindset coaching.
So I worked in that area.
I've been qualified in nutrition for a
great many years and practice like
forensic nutrition now,
which is like detective work.
So we work backwards in that.
And also work on the coaching side.
I have spent time as a, I've had a career
as a physical therapist,
working in sports, physio.
And I'm retired from
that side of things now.
But in with that was
the rehabilitation side.
So I worked in gyms with people,
rehabilitating with the
biomechanics and the kinesiology.
So I've got a good understanding of
exercise, physiology and the biomechanics
and everything else that goes with that
and all the anatomy and physiology and
everything that goes with that.
So basically, if you round all that up
with other interests,
it, I don't have any hobbies, but I have
a very lot of interests.
So it gives me a lot of time to focus in
a lot of directions and bring it all
together because I think I have a friend
who's somewhat of an expert in his double
PhD and he's very
interesting person to talk to.
And he knows a lot about
what he knows a lot about.
But outside of that,
yeah.
So you know a lot about very little, but
very little about anything else.
Which is really, I thought we sort of
agree on that sort of definition of an
expert, somebody who knows more and more
about less and less.
Yes.
So that would be so the definition of the
world's greatest expert would be somebody
who knows everything about nothing.
Pretty much.
So I don't claim to be an expert as you
sort of introduced me.
I just have a lot of interests that I'm
able to bring together.
And it sort of helped me in a lot of ways
to build to not so
much bring a diagnosis,
but to have a good
understanding of how to help people.
And I've been here for 60
years on this planet now.
So it's given me a lot of experience and
a lot of time to build to put this
together and sort of pull it all in.
It's just like pulling
a net in really well.
You go fishing, you throw your net out
and then you just pull it all back in
again and you see what you've caught.
And that's the way I've
sort of been over the years.
So no, that's great.
And I'd love to come back to the forensic
nutrition a little bit later on.
I like what you touched on specifically
about having no hobbies.
I think you have a lot of hobbies.
I just think that they're sort of tied in
directly to what you do on a daily basis.
I think hobbies are what you
fundamentally love at the end of the day.
I think a lot of people get trapped in
this sort of desire, this need to find a
hobby when ultimately what they should be
doing is sort of incorporating their
hobbies into this sort of daily life,
creating their purpose from
that point going forwards.
But yeah, that's maybe my
epic sort of dull view on it.
So we'll let that one slide.
But anyway,
high performers, the sort of the client
base that you are that you sort of
predominantly work with.
What sort of I suppose drew you to
wanting to work with these sorts of
people to begin with?
These are the kind of
the movers and the shakers.
I mean, literally the difference between
your average person, the high performer,
is somebody who just says, I don't want
to sit back and let it out around me.
You know, I want to be
an atmosphere changer.
I want to get in there and
do something I want to make.
I want to put my footprint on life.
I want to change things.
You know, you don't want to.
You know something in science, I've
studied a lot in science.
So in science, so we had mainstream
science and then we had peer review.
It's great.
Fantastic peer review.
But if we only stuck with peer review,
we'd still be stuck with candles.
We'd be a country of
amazing candlemakers.
We wouldn't have had the light bulb.
We wouldn't have had any of these
fantastic inventions
that came from the fringes.
So I sort of like that.
And I think I like these high performers
because some of them are a bit out there.
But you know something, I love them all
because it brings us all together and it
pushes the development.
You know what I mean?
And in business, I
think it's really good.
I think people are developing in business
now and the businesses start small and
they can grow if you can scale it well.
You know what I mean?
They can grow very quickly.
But I don't want to see people burn out
in the way to get in there.
And whatever success looks like to you
because it looks different
to a lot of different people.
So, you know, I want to help people get
to that place in life
where they are successful.
They can not just support the self and
the families, but they can support
communities and others and
things, you know what I mean?
In many ways.
Yeah, that's the perfect answer.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, I suppose we may as well jump into
burnout, what it is.
I mean, I think it's a term
most people are familiar with.
Excuse me.
Well, at least they've heard of it.
Honestly, though, I don't think many
people kind of really do know what it is.
I mean, I've got my thoughts, of course,
and those having sort of a fairly strong
biological underpinning, I suppose, and
which I'd love to get your feedback on.
However, I suppose, as you're in the hot
seat, really, how do you define the term
or slash the condition, what it really
is, burnout, I mean?
Burnout.
And a really interesting question.
Let me just start it with this.
I had a really
interesting question, right?
And somebody asked me, and they said, how
do you work through burnout?
I said, that's a really interesting
question because you
can't work through burnout.
You have a built-in firewall, and that's
called burnout, and it stops you from
getting any further than that, because if
you could, you'd get a
complete adrenal failure.
You'd get a
complete...it's like loss of life.
It's like an end of disease.
Yes.
It works.
It would allow you to decline very fast.
It would allow you to basically hit your
worst in the quickest possible time.
So burnout's like your firewall, and it's
stopping you from going
any further beyond that.
And there are symptoms and signs of
burnout, and I think most
of us know what them are.
Now, this is how I define it.
So I've got an 80-20 rule.
It means for every 20% I
put in, I get 80% back out.
So my full concentration in my creative
time has usually worked
like in one-hour bursts.
And I think I've got an attention span of
full, 100% attention span
of about 40, 50 minutes.
Is that practice principle?
Yes.
So basically, when I'm working with this,
I look at when I am being productive, if
I'm creating something
and I'm being productive.
So I'm looking at creative thought, and
I'm looking at what I'm putting in.
And everybody time blocks the day-to-day,
but you have got to time block your day
in a way that's going
to be productive for you.
So you're using lots of
little-- I do, anyway.
I use lots of little bursts.
You know what I mean?
So it's not that I do a little bit and
have a little bit of a rest.
I do something, and then I go into
something else, which might be a little
bit of a rest for me.
So there might be something more physical
than that is mental.
And I'm usually working with this because
the impact of actually doing something
physical is when you do something
physical, like if you do some resistance
training, you're actually releasing BDNF,
which is actually boosting your brain.
You know, you're actually
regrowing your brain cells.
I mean, it's a proven thing.
Now you can go anywhere.
You can look at it on
Google and whatever.
And there's lots of other benefits.
So I like to have the energetic bursts
and things during the
day and like to put it in.
So I'll work for so long and then I go
and have a power walk and then I'll go,
you know, do some more work, some
different work, some
creative stuff maybe then.
So my time it is, it's blocked into, you
know, productive time and then things
that I just need to do.
You know what I mean? But the thing is, with the way I look at
it with the 80-20 rule
is like, is if I'm on it,
I can usually put 20% in and get 80% back
and it's usually creative.
Now, when this starts to fade, that
becomes like 50-50 and then it can
reverse and it can be the 80-20 and put
80% in, getting 20% back.
That happened, surprisingly enough, that
happened about eight weeks ago because I
were putting that much stuff together and
I were looking into new things and I were
doing a couple of plans, couple of
blueprints for people.
And so I'm working and I'm doing like,
you just eight hours back to back and
then I'm like working into the evening
and I'm getting printouts and things.
And I'm thinking, you know, going to the
gym was not a joy for me.
For a little short period of
time, it was not a joy for me.
So basically, now, as a high performer
myself, I'm on the sort of cusp of I
don't have to push it too far before I
could go into burnout.
So that's why things I know we'll talk
about later, the supplementation, the
lifestyle, the other
things and what have you.
And it's difficult for somebody like me
and other high performers to sort of
reign it back in and say, there you go,
have this quiet life.
It's like, no, that's
just dumb and boring.
I feel like I'm wasting my life.
I feel like I'm waiting to expire.
So I've got to be doing
something all the time.
I'm not ADHD in that, but I am somebody.
My brain is lit up all the time.
So I find it difficult to do nothing.
So I really do
identify with these people.
But I find that I get the I can just go
down a list of things.
Right.
So basically, it's a lack of
focus, a lack of enthusiasm.
If I'm lacking in the
uses, I'm like, why?
I always ask the wise.
And I would encourage that with anybody.
I ask yourself why?
Because your wise is
your own way to start with.
You know, I mean, but
there's lack of clarity.
So, you know, there's lack
of focus and lack of clarity.
So focus, I can't focus on the thing.
And clarity is what I'm seeing.
What's coming back to me.
So I'm getting that.
So some people call that brain fog.
And then there's decreased output.
So there's what what can I actually do?
You know, it's like my
output, physical as well as mental.
And then the equation to that is every
day tasks become harder till eventually
I'm sat there and I'm staring into space
like for a couple of minutes at a time
thinking, what am I doing?
You know what I mean?
And that's when it says to
me, right, that's burnout.
You've just encountered burnout.
So it's a complete rest from the things
that are causing your burnout and then go
and enjoy the things
that give you a great input.
You know, so whatever they may be.
So I did a little bit a little bit of
work in the gym and I went out and did
some walks and different things and, you
know, went for a drive and, you know, I'd
add some organic
coffee and things like that.
Just little, little, little, little,
little fixes, little, little fixer ups
things, you know what I mean?
And looking at another thing as well is I
have I do I do brain gym and some people
just say, oh, you're just playing games.
I'm like, no, playing games.
They actually teach you to look for the
things that you can't see because if
you're trying to solve the problem and
you're just going like,
yeah, it's like, this is
the questions that I ask.
What am I missing?
What is it that I am not seeing that's
hiding in plain sight?
And these things help you
to see the bigger picture.
It's like playing two tier chess.
You know what I mean?
You're not just looking at
when you're looking at two.
So these things and you start smaller on
these games and they
become bigger and bigger.
So I do that and I do that a couple of
times during the day.
And now I'm really quick on the games and
I can complete games like in a couple of
minutes before it took about, oh, twelve
minutes, twenty minutes.
Fair enough.
So in a nutshell, just for the audience,
you would sort of define burnout as the
as the disproportionate amount of effort
required to get the same results that you
previously got for a lesser amount of
effort when it comes to being productive.
If you were to sort of
summarize it in one sentence.
Yeah.
And then obviously, along with that,
you're going to get symptoms like
fatigue, brain fog, depression, sort of
this anhedonia, lack of desire to want to
do stuff, et cetera.
OK, perfect.
So, yeah, just to carry on from that.
Let me use an example.
So I've got a friend I've
been helping out at the moment.
He's been through a bit recently.
Some physical issues, of course, and then
just a really high stress load.
Really, he fits into this demographic,
actually, this high achiever demographic.
He's in his early fifties, very a type,
very driven to succeed.
We've been down a lot of rabbit holes in
conversation together.
And he really is the epitome of somebody
who's burnt the candle at both ends.
Heck, I mean, if there's a third end,
he'd probably try and burn that, too.
Oh, he'd torture.
Maybe an obvious question, but how does
this sort of this drive for achievement
just amplify the perceived level of
stress that ultimately ends up with
individuals like him burning out and in
the hole, so to speak?
This is an interesting one, because I
could only answer this
from what I found in me first.
And then I just thought, well, if that's
my case, then is it is
that the same in other people?
And I measured this variable.
And yes, it is.
When you're doing something that you love
and you're passionate about, you've got
more chance of burning out in that
without realizing that you're burning out
because stress is perceived pressure.
So it's how you feel internally about
what you're facing externally.
But you know, when you love what you're
doing, I mean, when you're passionate
about it and you love what
you're doing, it's no stress.
It's a joy.
It's a joy to do it.
So you'll keep doing it.
So you'll keep going and you'll keep
going and you'll miss a meal
and you'll miss some time out.
And the problem with that is, is that you
are actually going towards stress because
your body recognizes all these stresses,
all these internal things, but you don't
feel stressed because that kind of stress
is not an internal job.
You're basically encountering these
stress things and these
tiredness and what have you.
So you can eventually hit this wall of
burnout without even knowing it.
So I would say that has been the biggest
lesson for me to learn in the because I
found things I was so passionate about
and so purpose driven.
And I loved what I were doing so much
that it was no stress to me.
And the pressure, there was
no real perceived pressure.
It's like, yeah, I can do this.
I'll just really, it's
like, yeah, I'll run all day.
And that's what it was.
And I will like that.
And then the next thing
is like, what's happening?
What's happening?
So you've still got to pace yourself.
And that's what I would say, because the
older you get, the more determined you
are and the more experienced you are.
And sometimes that can work a little bit
against you because you think you know.
But the one thing that I have learned is
that the more I think I know, the less I
know about what I think I know.
And it's a bit of an enigma in that.
But the point is, it's
like when Socrates said,
oh, good to me, what is quote now?
I forgot.
I've got a brain fog.
But the basic premise of it, I haven't.
I've just like, it just
slips my mind in the moment.
The basic premise is that when you think
you know, there's a lot more that you
don't know that you could know.
The only true knowledge
exists in knowing we know nothing.
So that's where he
basically explains it from.
So when you think you know it, and it's
like, yeah, you think you're a bit of a
self-proclaimed expert in this now.
And it's like, there's so much more that
you don't know about that.
Because when I think about science, I was
like, remember the fact that a friend of
mine were telling me, a scientist friend
of mine, he says that as scientists, we
don't truly understand water yet.
We don't understand why the water
molecule H, you know, the H2O, when you
think about that hydrogen and oxygen and
white form something that's wet that
quenches your thirst that
takes up 80% of your body.
So I just think that explains it for me.
Yeah, so sort of the Dunning-Kruger
effect to an extent, would you say?
The idea that I suppose it's a cognitive
bias where people believe that their
ability to excel in a specific area, and
they've got a low ability in that area to
begin with is, and then they sort of tend
to overestimate their own
abilities, consequently,
and end up sort of, yeah, in that sort of
that loophole, essentially.
Okay, yeah, that's perfect.
Okay, I'd like to sort of maybe say we're
into chatting about some of the
physiological side of burnout, the
biological endopinings, you might say.
Now, I know there are a lot of theories
out there as to why people burn out
physiologically, and just for the
audience, what is happening to biology on
neurology when we are burning out,
including the downregulation of hormones,
the dysregulation of the circadian
rhythm, which is our daylight cycle and
how we sort of move
from one to the other.
Now, all of this is governed by something
I'm sure you know, called the
hypothalamic pituitary axis or the HPA.
Can you work us through this stress
system in the body, what the HPA is, and
then fundamentally, why it goes wrong?
As soon as you start applying stress to
your body, so your body's working
normally, you would normally
have a fat burning pathway.
When you go into a stress situation,
you're going to, there's two things
that's going to happen.
You're going to
stimulate glucocorticoids.
So basically, you're going to come
straight out of normal regular fat
burning, and you're going
to go into burning glucose.
This is going to affect
your energy straight away.
So this is why people who are in stress
quite a long time, they don't tend to be
able to lose body fat and
they have a lot of visceral fat.
So when we send them for body statting on
a DEXA scan, we find that they're usually
quite heavy in the visceral fat around
the middle area and things like that.
And if they are tested in that,
they find that there's a lot of
indicators that are indicating stress in
their life in one way or another.
The obvious outcomes, I want to keep
straight to the point, the obvious
outcomes in this is like, when you're in
this area, there's a lot of things like
your insulin spikes, which is going to
shut off your fat burning.
These are things when people are coming
to me and they're saying, "Why am I
gaining weight and I'm eating less?"
And I'm saying, "Well,
this is the big thing."
So basically,
the number one thing that insulin does is
it prevents fat burning because you go
straight into that
glucocorticoid pathway.
So you're basically getting the adipose.
You can end up with skinny fat because
you can actually burn
muscle out with this as well.
So the stress hormone addiction, that's a
big one that I've come across because
people just say, "No, I'm not."
And I said, "Well, why are you
self-sabotaging because you're working
into situations like this that
basically give you this buzz.
So you're getting this adrenaline buzz
that's attached to the cortisol.
So you're creating, you're looking for
the situations that are actually creating
this and you're loving it and you're
chasing after it
without even realizing it."
So, you know, that's the other thing.
The poor sleep, as it leads into that, I
mean, these are all the outcomes of it.
The poor sleep, well, if you've been
racing all day and your
cortisol levels are up,
so you're going to find it
difficult to sleep at night.
And that's going to be either difficult
to go into sleep or
difficult to stay in a sleep.
And the other thing as well, if your fat
burning pathways are not working
properly, you're going to
be functioning on glucose.
So if you go to bed on glucose, I
guarantee you that
you're going to spike insulin.
So that's going to get you up two to
three times during the night.
So that's going to be sleep disturbances.
And then when you wake up in the morning,
the thing is, right, most people think
the day begins with the morning.
Well, when you think about when morning
begins, it's a minute after midnight.
Yeah, definitely.
I'd love to come back to those morning
routines a little later on, too.
Yeah.
So that's the main thing
that I'm looking at there.
So if you set yourself up
for a good night's sleep.
A good night's sleep
starts the morning before.
That's your data, isn't it?
That's it.
That's exactly as I see it.
Yeah, definitely.
So again, just to summarize, you talk
about glucocorticoids, which
are hormones like cortisol.
And in the brain, and correct me if I'm
wrong, but the way I view it, you have
this area of the brain called the
hypothalamus, which then sends signals to
the pituitary gland,
another brain region.
This pituitary gland then signals the
adrenal glands and other tissues in the
body to produce a bunch of hormones,
predominantly glucocorticoids, as you
talked about, things like cortisol, as
well as the catecholamines, things like
adrenaline, non-dramnol, etc.
And all of these molecules then work in
the body in a positive
way and a negative way.
What they can do is they can support the
production of energy.
Cortisol works hypothetically at the
level of the liver to produce a stored
sugar, which then gets
into the bloodstream.
And then what happens is over time, if
this stress response isn't correctly
controlled by the body, you end up with
high levels consistently of these
hormones that then create a lot of
metabolic dysfunction, which can not only
interfere with metabolism and, as you
alluded to, things like muscle loss and
fat gain, etc., especially around the
belly and around the thighs, where you
have a lot of these
places of cortisol combined to.
But you also have a downregulation of the
neuromodulators or neurotransmitters,
such as dopamine, that then work in
conjunction with these hormones.
And consequently, as a result of this
metabolic soup, this mess that's going on
in your biology, you end
up in this "burnt outstay".
Would you say that that's just a fair
overview from just a high level?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, in the evening,
you put together your thoughts in the
day, you disassemble them at night, so
when you're talking about catecholamines
building up during the day, they have to
be metabolized at night.
So obviously, you need to raise your
serotonin levels, so you've got other
things that are needed in there.
So you've got your B2 that's
needed, your B6 that's needed.
And this is one of the things that I'm
dealing with people at the moment with
the methylation and the conversion.
So the metabolizing, the catecholamines,
the upregulating, the
serotonin and things like that.
So basically, they can sleep.
This, that is the big pendulum swing.
I'm facing quite a lot at the moment with
people who are coming to me and saying,
when I'm talking about
it, like sleep hygiene.
So that's everything that's taking
somebody from actually preparing to sleep
to actually trying to sleep in their
case, you know what I mean, or not
sleeping, whatever, and then getting into
the next day tired because they think
that they've not slept.
They've just not had a great sleep.
Yeah, definitely.
No, that's great.
I'd love to sort of come back to I think
that falls under the sort of the forensic
nutrition that you talked about that
earlier, identifying sort of these key
micronutrients that support the
production of all the enzymes, all the in
the body that then helped
you to function optimally.
And without these, you end up with this,
this dig, dysregulated HPA
axis, as we'll talk about earlier.
Nick, I know mindset
plays a huge role in this too.
And it's almost, I mean, the way I see
it, the mind and the body connected.
So the same end, let's let's use another
example, the same friend I was chatting
to earlier, we were talking about about
stress, not being anything more than a
perceived state that our
biology then reacts to.
An example there could be a child who is
made to work in an underage capacity, say
they're 12 year olds and they're in sort
of they're in manual labor.
They're not necessarily enforced labor,
but they're in manual labor.
Now, the way I see that a few hundred
years ago, that would be
considered completely normal.
And in the large parts of third world,
that is considered completely normal.
Now, in modern society in the UK and
America, the first world, where children
grow up with this
understanding that that's bad.
If they then end up in a situation like
that, they then end up with a very high
stress load and potentially the ability
to sort of develop this
sort of trauma response.
Now, point being is and of course, that's
a sweeping statement, but that our minds
dictate to a large extent what we
perceive to be stress and what we then
perceive to be trauma.
And I know that there's obviously there's
a very much a connection there.
My point in all of this is really to me
that highlights the fact that our
perception of stress ultimately governs
how that stress will then affect our
physiology, if that makes
sense in your following.
Do you agree with this that A, well, A,
that the mind and the body are linked in
terms of bringing this back to burnout,
well, burnout, and then B, do you think
our perceived understanding of what
stress is going back to what you said
earlier, really, about stress is only a
stress if we perceive it to be a stress,
i.e. if, sorry, and this is going down
many reptiles and getting convoluted.
But if we enjoy something, it's
consequently not seen as a stress,
although the body doesn't isn't able to
differentiate that
necessarily at a fine level.
So bring it all together.
A, do you agree with me?
If not, that's fine.
B, do you think that we are that the way
we identify our stress in
life affects physiology?
And then C, how do you view this whole
mind-body connection?
On the most, I agree with you.
I can add to some things.
I mean, that's
fundamentally completely logical.
You know what you've just said, and if
you were to work through it and you give
it to any person, you would work through
it, they said, but of course, of course,
and I'd say, of course, of course,
because the thing about it is, is that
perceived stress is the biggest thing.
We've all got different giftings.
So, you know, if I give somebody
something that's that they're not gifted
for it, that they don't they don't have
any purpose in trying to
dislike, why are you giving me this?
This is a difficult task.
To me, I've always worked at the things
that I am good at to
become better at those things.
Many years ago, I used
to work in management.
I used to manage.
Yeah, I know that would have
stress in it, to be honest.
But I developed some
really good techniques.
And later on, I went to university and I
studied a lot of different things.
And I were able to bring
a lot of insights to that.
But this is what I found.
I'm a perceived stress.
Right.
So basically, I give somebody a task that
they have no passion for, and they have
no real ability in that
that's going to cause them stress.
So somebody else is going to love that.
You know, the old one man's meat is
another man's poison kind of thing.
You know what I mean?
One man's rubbish is
another man's treasure.
And I find that there's people that have
incredible giftings in things that I
would just find that find that thing
incredibly stressful.
Office work and the admin.
Oh my goodness.
I have a friend that is just
an absolute amaze ball at it.
Right.
Absolutely brilliant.
You know what I mean?
Shuffles, papers, round and great on the
computers and things like that, you know,
and great with all the
AI and everything else.
No, it's not that I'm
not any good with AI. I
am.
And I'm understanding it more and more.
And I think if you learn the fundamentals
now of working with AI, you can scale
things so that you don't need to be
passing things around and
saying, can you help me with this?
Can you help me with this?
Because basically AI does it all and you
don't have to pay it a thing.
You just have, well, sometimes there's
subscriptions and
things, you know what I mean?
That's it.
That's about it.
So yeah, perceived stress.
This all ties a lot of things in to
gifting and to passion.
And I have always worked on the things
that I am good at and the
things that I am not good at.
I wouldn't try and become great at
something that I'm never
become going to become great in.
In life, you're either going to do
something or you're
going to be great at it.
And you know, you know, if you want your
car repairing, you're going to take your
car to a great garage, a great mechanic
and things like that.
You know what I mean?
You've got to go to somebody
who's great at what they do.
Somebody who's like, yeah,
yeah, I'll see what I can do.
No, you're going to be great at it if
you're going to do it.
And that's the way I see things in life.
So what makes you great at it?
Because you'll love it, because you're
passionate about it, because it's the
thing that drives you.
It's the thing of interest.
And if you don't know your passion, I
always said, find something that you're
interested in and work
towards it with your whole heart.
And that will bring out your passion.
You'll find your passion in that and your
interest in the things
that you're drawn towards it.
And that is spiritual side, because
you're drawn into that thing.
You know what I mean?
Try not to be drawn into it.
You'll be drawn into it no matter what,
because that's what your
passions join you towards.
So these are things that you, there's
things that I do and I never
seem to get tired about them.
And people just go, how
can you keep on like that?
How can you hypothesize or how can you
keep working on these problems?
I'm going to say, no problem.
It isn't a problem.
You know what I mean?
It's actually like a joy to work on it.
But don't give me any office work to do,
because I am going to find that somewhat
of a problem when I get
further down the line.
So, you know, that sort of sums up, you
know, and it's, I think it's
individuals, individual gifted.
And you can come up with types.
You know, there are different types,
personality types and different things
like that, you know, and then we look at
more extroverts and introverts and we
look at all these bits in between.
But individuals, we're
all complex and unique.
Of course.
And then how sort of bringing it back to
burnout once again, how do you think, how
do you view this stress is
then affecting the physiology?
I mean, I know we talked about that
earlier, but how was that stress then
driving that burnout process?
I think that's maybe a question we've not
yet sort of really asked that.
I think a lot of maybe the audience would
be interested in knowing why does stress
then, even if you're in this state of
flow, ultimately lead you potentially to
the state of becoming dysfunctional in
what you're trying to
achieve with all of that said.
I mean, I know that we could
have a whole podcast on that.
So feel free to keep it brief.
But how do you view that?
If we took it like what you mentioned
earlier, again, the HPT, right, when
we're looking at that,
everything's a flow within that.
So it's keeping it halfway there.
Now, you wouldn't get up in the morning
if it wasn't for stress, because
obviously cortisol has to raise.
So cortisol is a good thing, but you get
too much of it and it's a bad thing.
So basically, it's keeping it, you know,
it's keeping that needle
somewhat in the middle.
And that's it really, a
mash of self regulation.
And we all this is what a big thing.
And I remember, I was involved in this in
a big talk and a big debate going back
like about two years, self regulation, it
was the big it was on
everybody's tongue back then.
How do I correctly self regulate?
And the thing is, is you
look at people's habits.
And if you study people well, you can see
different methods of self regulation.
And that's the one of the ways that we're
going to deal with stresses building up
too much input and things building up and
things that are okay.
Why is it some day?
Why do you have a bad day when you go to
a lot of different things and then
suddenly one day is a bad day.
And then obviously, when you're coming
down to phrase it and you're saying,
because I learned to say,
you know, it's not a bad day.
I'm having a challenging day.
You know what I mean?
I'm having a difficult
time and things like this.
And I started to word things because I
looked at the words more and what the
words actually mean to me.
So that's the mental effect.
You know what I mean?
That's the stress
coming out of what I think.
That's the perceived stress.
But the actual stresses is where I am
when I get up in the morning.
So if I'm rested and I check my heart
rate in the morning and my heart rate is
not varied by 10 beats.
It's not up by 10 beats
or something like that.
So I wake up in the morning, mine's about
58 to about 60, something like that.
It's fairly good.
But if I had a morning when I was telling
you about like a few weeks ago, and I
woke up and my heart rate was about 68 to
72 in the morning, I
thought, this is not good.
You know what I mean?
And I was looking at things and I didn't
really, I couldn't put my
finger on any one thing.
You know what I mean?
I thought I worked out that
was just a regular workout.
But it's the many
littles that make a mooch.
So there I was.
So I had to look at things and I had to
basically like go, right, I'm just going
to met myself, take a few more breaks and
do a little bit less.
And so basically I can try and stop that
cortisol from going sky high.
So when your cortisol's up with your
adrenaline, so you're paying lots of trips to the toilet.
Doesn't matter how much, how much you
mineralize the water you have, you know,
how many electrolytes you have, you will
go to the toilet a lot.
And that's one of the ways and then your
mouth will get quite dry.
And you're noticing these these telltale
signs and it's like, yeah, my stress
levels are up and I need
to do something about it.
So good thing, bad thing, it can be good.
It can be good because you need to raise
that cortisol levels, but it can be bad
if it's out of control.
So it's a, it's something that's really important.
It's something that you, the way you feel
can affect it a lot more
than you think, really.
So, and I find today there's a lot of
people getting stressed out about the
state of the world today.
And people just tell me you just carry on
like, like, like
you're just not bothered.
And I just say, I am
concerned, but I'm not worried.
Of course not.
Because worrying doesn't solve anything.
It's, it's, it's your locus of control.
I mean, I'm horrendous.
I couldn't tell you what's going on the
world the moment beyond my beyond what's
sort of thoughts out the front door.
But to me, unless it has direct bearing
on my life, my ability to make money, my
ability to care for those I love, etc.
It doesn't hold any value to me.
Now that's not to say I don't care, but
I'm in a position where fundamentally,
unless I either, let's
just choose a random example.
Now I have, I have no understanding of
politics whatsoever.
Probably to my detriment that there's
obviously something terrible going on in
the Far East moment with Israel and and
Paris, excuse me, Palestine.
Yeah.
Now, I don't have a, I'm not, I don't
have an opinion on that because I don't
know enough about it.
So I don't feel I
should have an opinion on it.
And I can get worked up about that and
really sort of braze my stress levels,
which is what a lot of people do.
They have all American politics if you're
in the UK, or whatever, or even British
politics if you're in the UK.
But the way I view it, you, you
fundamentally can't change anything about
those circumstances, not really.
I mean, maybe you can if you pour your
heart and soul into it.
And if that's something
that you want to do, awesome.
But 99.99% of the
human population aren't.
So my view on that sort of thing is,
don't worry about it, because
fundamentally, it's not going to change
anything other than your stress levels,
which is going to drive
more problems in your life.
Maybe, maybe it's a bit of a selfish
view, but I don't think it serves anyone
sort of getting wrapped up in that sort
of superficial for the want of a better
word, those sorts of superficial issues
when you should ultimately just focus on
what's yours and what's in
your, again, locus of control.
That's really good, because I say
something to people on a regular basis.
And whether they like
it or not, here it is.
If you want to make a change, let that
change begin with you because you'll make
the biggest change because you will
directly affect the lives of 10 people
and indirectly and other
10 people outside of that.
So you can bring a big change to people's
lives around you and definitely your own
life and you'll live longer and then the
way you treat other
people will be a lot better.
And if there's something that you can do,
that you need to do,
then do it within that.
Definitely.
I was listening to Dan
Martel the other day.
He's an entrepreneur business guy.
And I'm paraphrasing here because I'll
probably get it wrong, but he said, "Help
people achieve what you want out of life.
So if you want more money, help people
achieve more, get more money.
If you want health, help
people get their own health back."
That sort of thing.
And I think that speaks volumes to what
you've just said as well.
Absolutely.
You reap what you sow.
You know what I mean?
So basically you sow into people.
You sow that good into people.
They're going to sow that again because
you can't sow good into...
If you sow an apple tree, you're not
going to get anything other than apples.
So whatever you sow good into a person,
that is going to be passed on.
So by doing that and investing into
people in such a good way like that, how
are you going to get
anything bad coming from that?
You're not.
It's going to return.
Seed produces like kind.
So that is absolutely 100%.
So I agree with what you're saying about
your paraphrasing, but that's by now,
that is really good.
Yeah, no, I like it too.
And again, it's not mine, but it's...
And I suppose it's another way of
describing karma, but ultimately by
focusing on this, again, what things you
can control and things that you can
improve in other people's lives.
And by not focusing on the minutia that's flirting around the world, the same thing.
So by not focusing on the minutia that's flirting around the world, the small
things that don't matter in your world,
you can then just ultimately reduce that
stress level and sort of
just eat the best you can be.
Anyway, Nick, we have suddenly got very
philosophical, which is great.
However,
I think we've got a bit of track.
So let's get back to it.
Now we've really sort of
jumped into what Bernard is.
We've taken a pretty deep
dive down that rabbit hole.
I'd love to sort of dig into some of your
favorite tools and strategies, if that's
okay, to help people get an understanding
of how to work through burnout.
And then I've got a hypothetical case
study that we could
work through afterwards.
But starting off, what are your sort of
your go-to strategies maybe off the bat
to help people get their mindset right?
Because, and I think we'll agree on this,
but I think when starting out helping
somebody, you generally have to get the
clients buy-in in terms of
mindset from the beginning.
Because otherwise, it's almost pretty
pointless going forwards, I'd imagine,
because you're just going to stack
modalities, you're going to take them to
take supplements, do tests, etc.
But unless they've got this mindset piece
right to begin with, I don't think, and
correct me if I'm wrong, you
are going to make much headway.
So yeah, how do you deal with the mindset
piece first and foremost,
strategy-wise, of course?
Mindset.
Mindset has been around
since time immemorial.
So basically, we've talked about
different things over the years, mental
attitude and different things.
And we focused on being positive.
And mindset is really the way you think,
and it operates within mind frame.
So mind frame is your perception.
And you always have
perception versus perspective.
So it's always, it is always, it's
expectation versus observation.
So it's basically what you perceive
versus what, which is what you would
imagine and how in your mind you see it
versus what you
actually with your eyes see.
And perspective is
always your final view.
So that's your frame.
So you put both these together,
perception versus perspective.
Right.
And that's your overall mind frame.
Imagination operates within that.
So that gets you from where you are to
where you want to go.
So basically, this is your mind's not,
your brain is the organ, but your mind
will take you externally,
will take you outside of that.
So this allows you to look to focus and
see things that you do not yet possess,
but you can step into that
and you can possess that.
Right.
And you can see that that's the clincher.
This is how a lot of
people achieve things.
So basically, that's
operating within the frame.
Mindset operates within the frame.
So basically, if you look at the frame,
the frame is the frame picture.
And I would say like the best way to do a
jigsaw puzzle is this basically always
assemble the frame and then fill it in
and then fill in the biggest areas with
the greatest detailing
because then that becomes easy.
It's easy to see things.
So you're making it easy for yourself.
So then the mindset set is
just a set of instructions.
So you just say what you see.
But if you can see clearly, it's easy.
It's easy, Rob.
You just say what you say.
What used to be on TV and you used to
say, say what you see.
I forget the catchphrase.
Catchphrase.
Right.
So basically, you are just then you're
putting, you're verbalizing, vocalizing
what you're actually seeing.
So that's a set of instructions.
So you can't create the instructions
until you see what
exactly what you need to do.
So what I do is when I look at somebody,
I'm just thinking, nobody wants chaos.
Nobody wants chaos.
And I'm looking and I
can I will never name drop.
People come to me and I'm
thinking, that is chaos.
That is absolute chaos.
That is what you what you
seem to thrive in is chaos.
And what I need to do is to put order to
that because, you know, that you can't
create anything out of chaos.
But if you put order to chaos, so like
you want to create something, but
everything's all over the place.
So you have to put order to
it and then you can build it.
You can structure it.
So that's a building site.
Right.
So basically, somebody comes
to me and I just say, right.
So we're going to begin.
We're going to begin with
how you go to bed at night.
So we're going to look at basically not.
We don't have to bring
any science into this.
We just have to basically look at habits
and habits function within routines.
So or it could be called the subroutine,
you know, whichever one you know, some
people call it, you know, they don't they
don't call it routines.
They call it rituals.
You know what I mean?
But whatever you want to call it.
So basically, you've got a routine and
then you've got a subroutine.
So that's a habit.
And the thing about habits is you
probably heard of habit stacking.
And I did mention it the last time we
spoke, habit stacking, where basically
people set goals to achieve.
And then that's an all out thing.
So how many goals can you set yourself
without it taking up all
your time and all your mind.
So you set yourself a lot of habits,
takes anything from 21 days
to 321 days to establish habit.
That's three weeks, 321 days.
So you establish habit.
There's ways to establish that quicker.
But when you've got that habit, habit
becomes a routine in your life.
If you put these things back together,
you got habit stacking and habit stacking
helps you achieve goals
and big goals as well.
So you've got a routine
then that you can work from.
And by the way, it's underpinning
psychology that you can't get through a
day, you can't get through your life
without having routines because the most
of your day is actually routine and
subroutine and the things that you do.
Because I once tried going through a day
and there were nothing routine.
And I totally broke my routine every
single time in every step through the
day, mentally going through things.
I was exhausted by lunchtime, mentally
exhausted because I've gone through
everything new or mentally exhausted.
But having said that, I did do some
driving, but I want to make a
conversation at the
same time I was driving.
Somebody was keeping me
accountable, by the way.
And so this is this we're very tiring.
So you look at your routines and your
routines will get you through a day
without you actually having to burn out
mentally because mentally, a lot of
thinking requires a lot of energy.
And a lot of people are not fueling for
that energy anyway, or they're putting
the wrong kind of fueling.
You know what I mean?
So this is keeping people accountable.
So your bedtime routine.
So there's a lot of
simple things in this.
I want to say it's very simplistic.
So you just follow the routine.
So the routine comes from it is if you
have the mindset lights, like people said
to me now, do you have to
send me these vast reports?
I said, I condense them.
I've condensed it to 90 pages.
You know what I mean?
When I've sent up these DNA reports, I've
said, I've condensed them to 90 pages,
but I've also done your re-collective
where I've done a blueprint plan for you.
Don't bother reading the report.
It's just so you've got it if you want
to, but you need to look, just look at
the blueprint
because, oh yeah, that's it.
Yeah, I'll just follow that.
And it's structured.
And I say it's got lots of nice pictures
in and it's got referrals for supplements
and things like this.
You know what I mean?
So really then you do this and this takes
you into a good night's sleep.
If you follow all these things and you
tick every single one of these tick
boxes, that takes you
into a good night's sleep.
And if you, and if you have the, you
know, if you've got problems with
methylating and you know, and you, so
you, you first of all going to practice,
put the practice in for the habits and
then you're going to look at, you know,
whether you're methylating correctly,
compT genes, MTH, et cetera.
I'm sure you know all this, but the point
is, is you need to, this needs to be
functioning properly for you or you, or
you're not going to be converted and your
brain's going to be lit up.
You know what I mean?
When you're asleep and
we're going to have problems.
So we set that right and
then you get up in the morning.
Then you've got your morning routine.
The first thing that you need when you
wake is to get into a
good place, a good headspace.
You don't need to be stepping, stepping
straight into chaos.
So the first thing that you need to do is
put something that will
establish that into your day.
So the first thing that I usually do is I
don't allow myself to think about how
tired I am or anything else.
That's your prefrontal cortex.
And so basically I
won't allow that in a day.
So I'll just get up and this is where my
routine comes in autopilot straight in.
I turn the shower on, step into it cold.
A lot of people got a lot of, what can I
say, cold plunging was a really big thing
at one time, but a lot of people got a
lot of setbacks through
being in the cold for too long.
It's cold immersion, right?
Get in, get out.
Don't sit in there for minutes.
For five minutes. 30 seconds to a minute
if you're feeling brave.
I think that's
definitely where people go wrong.
And then all of a sudden they've got huge
amounts of cold soul in their system and
no way to break it down effectively.
No.
Yeah, no, definitely.
So it was the cold shower then.
And then after the cold
shower, the shower goes warm.
So then the warm is kind of like it has a
counter-irritant effect on you.
So basically it's
getting to being quite hot.
And then you have a quite
a calming soothing effect.
And then that basically puts
your mind in a good place then.
And then you want to put, what's the
number one thing that
you need to put in then?
Oxygen.
So when you've done that, you get
dressed, you do your box breathing and
you are guaranteed that nobody who's ever
done box breathing hasn't felt good.
You get a high from it.
It's really good.
So you put the box breathing and you
don't have to excess with it.
I don't excess with it.
I get a high just with the basic stuff.
And then after the box breathing, you're
in a good headspace.
So you're getting a place of peace.
Right?
And whatever that looks like to you.
Do you know what I mean?
I mean, I pray and that really does
something for me and it's very, very
uplifting and it's very focusing.
And I'm, excuse me, I've heard of a few
experts as well also
praying Huberman and a few others.
And so like, basically I have that time
in the morning and that's my quiet time
and that gets me established and it puts
me in a place of rest.
And the mindset is right then because it
works from that rest.
And whenever I, I know where that is and
I've got a clear picture of that and I
can see that and that's
where it is then in the morning.
Right?
And I stay in that.
Now there's many things through the day
that will try to pull me out of that, but
I know what that looks like then.
So I know what that place is and I'm not
aiming for that feeling.
I'm aiming for what I can focus on, which
allows me to go forwards like smooth.
And it's not like, you know, having to
beat my way through a jungle.
It allows me to go through smooth and all
the things that you've got to look at
physiological things in this.
Right?
What pulls you out?
What pulls you into that state?
What creates stress?
There's different things that you can do
with your breathing through the day and
just taking little time out and whatever
you to get you back into that place to be
productive and to be
focused and clear minded.
You need to be throughout the day to be
focused and clear minded and then you're
not getting, you know, you're not getting
cortisol spikes and you're not getting
all these different adrenaline dumps and
different things like that.
I mean,
if you take a stimulant, it's great
before the gym, but it's
not great for most of the day.
Yeah, you definitely
don't want to do that.
Thank you Nick.
I mean, that was a great answer mindset.
I mean, to be honest, normally what I do
is I just tell people to get a routine in
and then to read Carol Dweck's mindset,
which I'm sure you've read the growth
mindset versus fixed mindset.
And I think that by itself creates this
perfect paradigm or ideology that
somebody can adopt, i.e. that somebody
with a growth mindset is willing to sort
of learn from their failures and not see
failures as the end or be all.
Whereas people with a fixed mindset
conversely, see failure as this sort of
this hard stop, which
they then can't get past.
So I mean, that's very simply and I mean,
obviously no mindset coach, but the way I
see it that you sort of overlap that sort
of thinking on top of the solid routine
and then you're pretty much set.
Nick,
I'd love to sort of chat mindset all day
with you, but I think what I'd really
like to sort of talk
about next is testing.
Now, you've mentioned
genetic testing a fair amount.
I'd love it if we could
discuss that a bit more.
Now, obviously there's lots of other
testing and I'd be interested to know if
you do any other sort of blood testing,
looking at things like cortisol, salivary
testing or looking at hormones, etc.
But before we get there, could you break
down all of this sort of, you've
mentioned these various genes, not
alleles specifically, but these genes,
these comT, we've mentioned comethal
transferase, you've mentioned various
methylation markers, etc.
Can you break down, I mean, number one,
what test do you use
just out of interest?
And then number two,
what are these genes and then how do they
provide a framework for you to then start working with people?
The big one today, and I've found, I just
hear it everywhere, but it
isn't really the big one.
People now were talking so much about the
MTHFR gene break, right?
So apparently 45%.
I'm not sure whether it is 45%, but it's
supposed to be 45% across the USA.
So I'm not sure what it is in this
country, but it's approximately around
40% of a gene break.
And this doesn't mean to say that you
can't methylate properly.
It means that you can't
methylate fully or to some degree.
What is methylation?
What is MTHFR?
Let's start there, because I think people
have heard a lot of
what these concepts are.
People like Gary Bregner
talk about methylation a lot.
But what exactly is
MTHFR and methylation?
Why is it important?
Methylation.
Goodness.
You can explain it in
so many different ways.
Basically, it's a process that would take
place thousands of times a second.
Thousands of times a
second, not just a thousand.
Thousands of times a second.
And it's a process where your body takes
substrates and it converts them into
things that it can actually use.
So it's nothing new.
Obviously, it's been around for a long
time, but we understand more of it.
And we have a particular gene that is
important in methylation.
And I'm no expert in this.
The labs do the analysis and then they
send the analysis to me and I have an
understanding and I work with people.
And I've had this will be interesting.
I'm going to bring to you in a minute.
But so if that explains the MTHFR, right?
It's the process of converting substrates
into usable forms of compounds within
your body that your
body can actually use then.
So we have a number of
different substrates.
We put in the roars and then we put in
like the B vitamins and then the B
vitamins are converted.
So we get the B2, which is for the
conversion with the it's converting the
niacin or niacinamide along the way.
So we can add the
riboflavin with the niacinamide.
So we work in towards
the serotonin type things.
So we look in there at the
comp tea and other things.
And initially, when you start out doing
this, if somebody knew nothing about it
and they went to learn about it, it's a
very sort of niche and complex thing.
And it's taken me actually a long because
you can read this, Rob, and you can read
it and you can just go,
oh, yeah, I understand.
But when you get somebody who comes to
you and just say like,
so what's the fix all?
What's the universal fix all?
It would be TMG.
I can't take TMG.
It makes me feel ill.
Right.
Because it over-methylates you.
Yeah, because it over-methylates me.
And so I've got clients and they say, I
can't accept methyl donors.
And I say, right.
So then it's like,
what can you work with?
What's the standard methylation fix?
So you can't use TMG, so that, you know,
down the conversion pathway.
So then what have you got?
You know what I mean?
You've got different things and I've got
people coming to me and they just say, I
can't tolerate methyl photo.
And I'm like, right.
Okay.
Well, you know, so they get.
Phalenic acid, which is a non-methylated.
And then like they just say, I cannot
tolerate the methylcobalamin.
Well, I'm like, yeah,
or hydroxycobalamin.
So there's, so I've got to go through all
these different things.
I've got to know every single alternative
and where that fits in
the methylation chain.
You know what I mean?
And when people are having problems with
thyroid and things like that.
And that folate cycle specifically when
talking about MTHFR, we're talking about
the way that B9 is
metabolized in the body.
Yes.
That's that.
You know, that's basically it.
And a lot of people, I mean, I'm sure you
know this, if you formulate all the
supplements and everything.
But a lot of a lot of people are still
asking me, you know, what's the best
supplement to buy here?
What's the supplement?
So I'm basically I'm passing on your
company for all of these.
There are.
There is another company that actually do
does do does that does do a good basic
selection of supplements that single
ingredient products.
Yeah.
Just single ingredient products.
And they do do some quite good things.
And they do do.
Again, we did the do do.
They do a methylated multivitamin.
And when I look at it, general, I just
think, that's the kind of a good fix for
like a lot of people.
You know, I mean, because the levels of
things aren't too high.
And it's a basic start for most people,
because when I'm putting them on
methylated things, I'm just thinking,
well, you know, I mean, I can put on.
I can put them on Sami, you
know, I mean, I'll methionine.
And as long as and some people are like
not, they're not using
anywhere near enough magnesium.
So the magnesium levels are really low.
The zinc levels are really low.
So these things are on this side.
Well, I'm taking this and
I'm feeling bad on this.
And I'm saying, what?
Where's your magnesium?
This what type of magnesium are you using
before you go to bed?
Are you using the three on it or are you
still using the glycinate?
You know me, I just change
these things round a little bit.
And it's like, I'm just thinking, it
seems like a simple thing to
me, but like to them, it's like,
of course.
And are you looking at actual levels of
these vitamins and nutrients in people's
bloodstream with a Nutrivel test or just
a serum sort of workup of these nutrients?
Because obviously, a
genetic test is great.
It's got a highlight where you may have
bottlenecks in the system to begin with,
but it's not necessarily going to tell
you if you have a frank
deficiency in something.
Whereas if you were to test something
like a homocysteine, for example, then
that might indicate you have a B12
deficiency or even if you're
just looking at a basic CBC,
a complete blood count that can highlight
nutrient deficiencies as well.
Are you utilizing any of that sort of
testing or is that sort of...
People usually have that
before they come to me.
So these are like somebody,
how was it now?
42 years old, 42 years old,
and he's a genetic anomaly.
So that means that basically this guy
should be...for gaining
muscle, he should be massive.
And yeah, he's not,
and he's got problems.
So he has problems with methylation.
Was that an ACTN3 gene mutation?
I'm not sure, to be honest.
I mean, I'm going back a while.
But I just remember looking through his
report and I just remember, so he's
genetically predisposed
to gain a lot of muscle.
But offset to that, he also had quite an
eye disposition to sarcopenia.
So basically, he could gain it quick, but
he could lose it quick.
Yeah, this concept of a polygenic risk
order where you have multiple different
genetic SNPs or single-nuclear type
polymorphisms that come together to
produce a report that shows you not just
the result of one set of genes, whether
it's compti or NTHFR or whatever, but the
collective result of that group of genes
and how that is going to then potentially
sort of create an
outcome in your biology.
Because I think what...and
I mean, I'm a biochemist.
I get wrapped up in mechanism
as much as the next guy does.
But I think what you've got to be careful
of, and of course you do this, is that
looking at these markers and isolation
can be detrimental because we are, as
human beings, we are more than just
individual mechanisms, individual genes.
We are the result of millions and
millions of processes within the body,
all of which are there in some way, shape
or form to support any
issues that are in us.
So we have all of these compensations
that sort of come together.
And when you look at that data as a
whole, through these things like a
polygenic risk assessment,
then you can make, I feel,
maybe a more...you can take out a more
holistic view, one might say, opposed to
just sort of picking out a single gene.
But that's not to say that these genes
don't have value and obviously you're
having tremendous success with them.
So, but yeah, I think just to sort of
maybe carry that forward for you and sort
of wrap that up that segment.
And yeah, I think that's where we've
inadvertently already discussed now the
this idea of forensic nutrition, and
correct me if I'm wrong, but this idea
that you're utilizing different forms of
testing to isolate deficiencies and
genetic abnormalities,
single nucleotide polymorphisms, excuse
me, as they call those SNPs, to look for
bottlenecks in human biology that stop
individuals from then sort of performing
at their best or achieving their goals.
Would that be a fair
summary, do you think?
Yeah, I think it is because you mentioned
that so a person's already had a blood
test, so I can look at the bloods.
And then sometimes it's like I'm looking
at, well, something doesn't add up here.
So we then we put the genetic testing and
the thing, you know, the thing about
genes is I learned, I learned this only
like, I would say this year,
as I was listening to a podcast from from
a genetics expert, and she was saying,
our genes are changing every eight
seconds, our DNA
obviously remains the same.
So we've got basically an
influence upon our genes.
And then, yeah, epigenetics.
So basically, that's been one of the
things that I've worked in for like 10 to
12 years when it first became a thing.
And the way that things, the way that
supplements an environment, an internal
environment and things like hydration can
just affect the way that we work and mood
and and sound and music and frequency and
432 hertz as opposed to
440 and things like this.
And I just so I find it interesting this
whole areas that you can talk about the
so very interesting.
And this is where this term holistic
brings it all together.
And you cannot just say, genetic testing
that say and it covers everything.
Because you're looking at
such a very small spectrum.
And when you're looking at things
forensically, you have to look at things
like a detective, and you have to have an
imagination that will take you out of
that place there and see a bigger picture
like a big frame and then built a zoom in
on different places and say, well, and if
you're wrong, you've just got to say,
right, okay, well, let's start again.
Maybe it's not that pathway.
Maybe it's another.
And I think that's the interesting thing.
That's what I love about what I'm doing.
There's so many different human beings
are so complex, Rob, that
there's so many different aspects.
Yeah, no, completely.
What are your thoughts on caffeine,
especially when coming to when talking
about helping people burnout?
I mean,
generally, I think you can
win this most most things.
But when you talk about taking someone's
caffeine away from them, they coffee away
from them, you're either going to it's a
very binary outcome.
Yes, or get knotted is
generally my experience there.
Would you think people can sort of work
through a burnt out state and still sort
of consume at least, maybe reduce it some
modicum of caffeine?
Yeah,
modification or replacement.
The usual strategies I would use
modification or replacement.
So, you know, if I'm saying to somebody,
one of the things that I know that is
that I process caffeine very fast, really
fast, I can burn it out incredibly fast.
And I can tolerate, I can tolerate very
high levels, I can have a super strong
coffee before I go to bed.
And just relax perfectly.
You know what I mean?
And sometimes like, well,
have I got an addiction to it?
Well, you know, it's a ribose inhibitor.
So basically, it's helping us.
Sorry?
It's 1A2, I believe.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So basically, it's helping us to become
more focused in that area.
But also, I'm also aware, you know, the
caffeine addicts on the reduction of that
because they increase blood flow after.
So if I'm talking to anybody about
caffeine, I'm talking about really
caffeine regulation.
So at the end of it, if you have to keep
putting that into you to feel good, then
it's like, you know,
who's, who's in control here?
What's going on?
Yeah, what's going on?
You know, really.
So and when we're talking about things
like that, I'm saying like, right, so,
okay, so what's your job?
What are you doing?
And you need to keep
going through the day?
What about lower levels of caffeine?
You can use something like Yerba Mati,
which has got like much lower levels.
Do you know what I mean?
So, you know, that's okay.
It's more holistic.
It definitely does help.
I think that's a perfect
segue into supplements.
I know we're starting to run up on time.
And I'd like to talk about biohacking
next in your
preferred biohacks, of course.
But just from a supplement standpoint,
when working with people with
burnout, what do you prefer?
Maybe your your top three or four
supplements, obviously, you have
adaptogens, utropics, Prohollins, things
like Pregnolone or DHEA to
support the endocrine system.
But what are your your sort
of top three or four go to's?
For me personally, I can tell you mine
and then I can tell you
what I recommend for everybody.
So these are the baselines.
So the baseline is a good
stack for an anti Alzheimer's.
I looked into this and exactly, you know,
the type three diabetes and
the and what exactly it is.
So I look at these things and the lion's
mane and the cordyceps are a good two
together because the working mushrooms.
Yeah, be mushrooms.
Yes, they're both mushrooms from the
fruiting body of the
mushroom, not the mycelium.
And they're basically proven.
You know, I could I could talk a long
time for this, but they're
basically proven to work.
So they will generate, they will
regenerate the axonal sheath and the the
also the nerve body.
And they'll also work within the
mitochondria and
mitochondrial health, as you know, is top.
So I'm thinking them two
things are really good.
The ashwagandha, you can't
deny it's a great adaptogen.
And it is and it does work really good.
But there's some people using spirulina
for, you know, for obvious reasons.
But on on cellular protection, there's a
lot of recent evidence that the creating
the creating one hydrate is
actually good for cellular.
So it's like protection, like stability
and things like that.
Obviously, recycle ATP.
Yes.
It donates a phosphate group to ADP
turning it back into ATP.
So you just end up with more of that
cellular energy, correct?
Yes.
Yeah.
Basically, that's it.
So you're good.
It's good from your startup system.
And it's proven to
maintain that integrity.
So that's a good thing.
So like if you're using the mushrooms and
you're using the creating,
you know, that's a good thing.
And one thing I always
recommend is the vitamin D3.
And the doses, if you look on Google,
Google will tell you
minute doses like 400.
I mean, it's not even in milligrams.
It's not even in micrograms.
It's international units.
You know, I mean, so that's tiny.
So when you put it in international
units, you start to make it
sound bigger than what it is.
And when you look at like 5000
international units, it's actually tiny.
This is my point point to five or
something like that.
And so what I actually use, I use twenty
thousand twenty thousand international
units of vitamin D every day.
And because it's technically a hormone.
So I'm using that and magic things happen
when you use twenty to thirty thousand.
Now, I'm not saying go out and do that.
I'm saying if you are interested, you can
have you can have a test.
But the way that I function, my body's
under a lot of stress and I burn out
magnesium at a phenomenal rate in the gym
and other things like that.
And so my body's under a lot of stress.
So magnesium is used up very quickly.
So my magnesium levels are not
phenomenally high, but
I keep the intake in.
So I have two
magnesium three times a day.
So keeping that up.
And that's like over a
grand source in the day.
Glistenate in the
evening three and eight.
OK, that's interesting.
Most people, I think, would
do it the other way around.
But that's working for you.
That's amazing.
I mean, that that's perfect.
That's awesome.
OK, so we've got we've we've got the the
adaptogenic mushrooms.
You I think you talked about quarter sips
and then lines made creatine,
vitamin D3 and then magnesium.
And those would be your top sort of four
or five supplements for helping people to
sort of maintain where they're at and
then potentially
start to reverse burnout.
The only other thing that's missed out on
that is zinc, that
cellular protection as well.
So that's basically Teflon
coating your cells, really.
So that's a good thing that's that's
actually needed in the
the protection of the cells.
There's other things as well.
There's quercetin.
There's quercetin, which is basically I
put the me personally, I put quercetin
with the with the creatine and with the
zinc and it has a really good protective
effect on the cells.
But them is my go to really, you know,
for for maintaining performance.
I can add a few different things to it,
you know, but the NAC is thrown in there
for me as well because, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that works really good.
Perfect.
Let's get into biohacking, something I
know you're passionate about.
Okay, specifically talking about people
with burnout or who are struggling with
burnout or think they are burnt out
anything in that in that in that area.
What are your your, let's say, top three
wearables piece of pieces of kit, excuse
me, that you would recommend to somebody
and why to help them sort of start to
recover from this the
state of being burnt out.
Now, this is now we, Kelly and myself
have been gifted from a
company called Kamira.
We've been gifted some track suits,
t-shirts, socks and lounge wear.
And what they are is they are the fibers,
they're infrared generating reflecting
fibers, which basically help heal.
And the difference is I wore, we went
away, we went to Carmel
and I wore the t-shirt.
I had a cotton t-shirt on and
then I wore the Kamira t-shirt.
So it kept me cooler, which is quite
interesting to start with.
And the recovery.
So basically, when I'm training, I'm
training one of these t-shirts now.
And it's it's aid in recovery.
It's helping me.
How's that working?
Do you know, if not, it's not a problem.
I'm not sure, Rob, I'm not sure of the
technology, but basically the fibers,
they're basically able to generate some
kind of infrared, the same principle that
the that you would get the near end and
the infrared from the sun basically at
the low levels of brightness.
So basically, that's that's
what we're looking at there.
So you're covering every area.
So you've got the
socks and things like that.
So Kamira have been they have been good
and I've witnessed it.
Collects witnessed it.
I can't speak for any for anybody else,
but that's been a you
know, that's been a good thing.
I don't actually I don't have a
smartwatch or anything like that.
What I do tend to do is something that
I've done for a great many years.
I monitor heart rate.
So in the morning, I just I learned to
take pulse two places.
So basically, wrist or
at the side of the head.
And I'm taking pulse
first thing in the morning.
So I need to know what my resting pulses
first thing in the morning, that's going
to tell me where I am stress wise.
And in the
morning, I'm like, Oh, yeah, the cold therapy.
And the cold plunges are just like not
not more than a minute.
So the cold plunges, if you've trained
hard and you cold plunge, then that
really does that really does work because
you stimulate the fat burning obviously,
and your body doesn't
need a lot to stimulate that.
And you're also stimulating the the it's
the anti inflammatory effect of it.
That's really good.
And I do every morning, as I said, I have
the cold shower every morning.
And it's a great setup.
The first thing in the
morning, the infrared, yeah,
infrared saunas.
I do take I do take a sunbed.
I don't do a lot of sunbed because I
don't get a lot of time to get on it.
And I don't get a lot of
time in the sun anymore.
Yeah,
but I do I do get on a sunbed.
And I do have a, you know, a certain amount nine to 12 minutes on a sunbed.
But the infrared saunas are really great
because there isn't always
you can't always get out.
I mean, if it's clouded over, you're not
really getting the
infrared in the morning.
But if it's not, that's a good thing to
get out whenever I can.
I'll get out.
We've got a little bit of garden space
and I'll get out and barefoot.
And I have a I have an organic coffee.
After first thing I do when I go up in
the morning is I have
about 350 to 500 mill of water.
And I have a lot of water. filter and inline filter.
So it's basically filtering
98.9% of the nasty is out of it.
It's the micro plastics and the heavy
metals, and the
chlorine and the fluoride.
It doesn't filter all the fluoride out it
there's still about one and a half percent 2% of fluoride that gets through.
But most of it's out. And I think it's, it's important to be mindful. About the if I say the environmental toxins, so these are things that can come in without you actually realizing it.
This has been an area that I've worked
in, in a major way for the last, I don't know, handful of years, maybe four or five years.
I have been in the environment for a long time. And I think it's important to be mindful
about the environmental toxins.
And it's just been a
lifestyle modification.
So if you're going to improve things, a
lot of people just say like, right, okay,
I'm going to use the peptides and I'm going to supplement and I'm like, Well, hang on a minute start at the base, don't you?
You got to start picking the lowest hanging function. And then you have the second thing. And you've got to start picking the lowest hanging function. I'm gonna supplement
and I'm like well I'm
gonna start at the base don't you you got
to start picking the lowest hanging fruit
getting all of that Sort of it's like I
think before when I was speaking to you I
said like you wouldn't carry water in a
bucket full of holes
first thing you do is
You're going to need To remove everything
that's causing a problem to start with
and you're just going to go through a
tick box I mean you're just gonna look at
them and this is where I can't sit the
people You're gonna take
the caffeine out altogether.
No, you haven't Do
what when I were younger?
When when I was younger we used to use a
lot of what they call trimethyl xanthine
Which is pharmaceutical caffeine and I
don't if you've tried it Rob, but I found
it to be not pretty my drug history Yeah,
I found it to be pretty good.
It was quite a smooth animal And you
know, you've got quite a good lift from
that But you know,
we're not going to that.
I'm going into the The holistic side of
things more now, so I'm looking at coffee
and I'm looking at organic coffees
because they don't they don't contain the
Toxins and the aflatoxins and things like
that which are gonna be I Mean really bad
for your home only and
a lot of other things
Kidneys or your detail.
Yeah everything, you know, I mean so, you
know, we're at the moment we're looking
at When you start to look at oxalates and
and lectins and things like that in foods
in your diet I think you'll just be
basically going well I can't eat a lot of
them things that are actually considered
to be, you know Nutritionally valuable to
me, but you've just got
to cut out the high levels.
That's all you can still have them You
can still have them no problem But you
just got to remove the high levels So the
things where you know, I mean it's like
that's that that's high in oxalates So
basically I will not have them things
that sign up so I'll just have them
things that's low in oxalates because
obviously they're very nutritious and
other things as well So it's
definitely how you
prepare these foods as well.
And I mean just to touch the nutrition
piece I mean, I think
what a general with them.
I think people hear about Every food is
going to kill them whether it's an
oxalate whether it's a lectin with this
Medicaid whatever and I think what you've
got to do is identify with What the
highest burden on your body is if you
have a high level of oxalic acid in your
body Potentially remove oxalates and see
what happens And then don't get sort of
Sort of bogged down by it all Nick
You've honestly been fantastic and this
has been an amazing conversation What I'd
love to do is just end off with a few
rapid fire questions.
That's okay I mean, they're never that
rapid that they make
they make for great clips.
Let's be honest So, um, if you would just
mind running through a few
of those would that be okay?
Yeah, sure.
Sure.
Whatever.
Yeah.
Okay.
Brilliant.
Thank you so much.
Okay, so cool.
I'm just starting off What's your one
non-negotiable daily habit?
My one non-negotiable daily habit is the
morning and it's basically Enter my rest
and then I work from my rest so I am
absolutely no good whatsoever if I don't
get that is a Non-negotiable, so that's
the one thing that I do.
I enter my rest and I have a few
different things that I do as I do that
But that is the place of focus.
That's power.
That is real power real focus being able
to make a real difference
perfect
One adapt your favorite adaptogen for
stress that maybe we
haven't talked about just yet
Favorite option that's a non-negotiable.
I don't know.
I gotta say ashwagandha because it's like
the thing that Killem me use a lot a lot
of that and it's the one thing that I
think I can tell the difference When I'm
using it and when I'm not using it, so
it's not like is it working.
Is it not working?
Yeah, it is you feel it hits.
Okay.
Perfect.
Yeah your favorite book or one book you
would recommend for people who are high
achievers Who are trying to maybe sort of
get out of this burnt-out state?
Um Favorite book I'll tell you but is an
interesting book So that you don't have
to listen to people tell you these facts
second and a very interesting book and
it's a really easy read Matthew Walker
why we sleep and There's a there's a lot
of information, you know people when when
you used to hear and now what don't get
me wrong Arnold Arnold Schwarzenegger is
a really great guy But when you used to
say things like, you know You want five
to six hours sleep every night and if you
want more sleep and sleep faster and I
used to think no
That's not entirely right.
You need 79 hours Right every night.
Some people need slightly less some
people need slightly more But you've got
to complete that process
with your circadian rhythm.
You basically got to You got to finish it
off So you got to get rid of the amyloid
plaques and things like that and
everything and you've got to have the
full conversion so you're gonna need
between 79 hours and Matthew Walker goes
into a lot of facts really simple really
easy He's a great guy and he's telling
you lots of different things The reasons
why you will need that cortisol level
different things like that if you if
you're a gymgoer You you can be losing at
least a third of your gains
Definitely if your sleep's impaired
you're going to there's going to be a lot
of catabolism or muscle
breakdown that occurs Absolutely.
Due to increased levels and everything we
discussed earlier Okay, last one really
Let's go with sort of your top two bread
flags that you wish high achievers would
recognize more often
when sort of facing burnout
top two red flags That I
wish they would recognize
You know when people Here's the best one
right so everybody used to say it's not
where you start It's where
you finish and that is wrong.
It is entirely where you start You'll
never even finish the race if you don't
start in the right place So you need to
be in the right place So there's
non-negotiables if you really want to go
all the way and you want to finish then
there's non-negotiables And it's entirely
where you start so get
these routines right to start.
We are guaranteed That's a winning
formula and that is the one thing that I
would say get that right And you're not
gonna you are gonna have problems down
the line But you're not gonna hit massive
roadblocks that's gonna stop you dead and
some people Couple of friends of mine
died early and they just thought that
they were invincible.
It'll never happen to me And I went to
school with them and that
they'd only be 60 years old
And they're not with us now, you know,
and it's really sad and the point is is
they didn't listen to things You know
that were happening in the body and they
didn't listen to these
overwhelming stresses
So and it led to some bad things down the
way and and that's you know, that's the
big thing So where you start is
everything that's you know, that's the
big thing that I
would say and a number two
This is my this is coming from my
personal experience doesn't matter how
much you love what you're doing
It can still it can still lead to that
same burnout place if you don't monitor
what you're doing Because you've just got
to monitor it I used to work in
engineering a long long time ago and I
used to work For a company and we used to
sort of build bespoke vehicles And I
engineered a vehicle put it together a
race car You seriously, this is where I
learned all the I don't know physics came
in You know, I mean we're working out
compression ratios and things like that
and clearances And so I used to I loved
my job that much I would go into work and
I would fall asleep Inside
the vehicle so I'm building it.
There's a shell There's nothing in it and
I'm just putting the engine and gearbox
in and I remember waking up and banging
me head And I like knit saw stars and I'm
like what have I done?
Where am I and it's all peach black and
I'm underneath the car, right?
And the and the thing is is I've lowered
the ramp down so I can work on me back
and I've fallen asleep under the vehicle
and that were me and I used to work and
and that people didn't used to see me
because it's like I'm you being home now.
I'm still at work and there's like get
yourself home You're gonna be no good to
us or anybody else and you
know summer though, right?
I wasn't But I love the work so much.
Yeah, it's a hard lesson to learn
especially if you are driven but
ultimately it's it's
one that I think most
Entrepreneurs high tubers CEOs, etc.
Ultimately do learn normally at the At
the yeah normally at their their own
detriment Yeah, Nick like I've said
you've been awesome.
Where can people find you sure they want
to reach out and work with you?
And you can find me on Instagram and
there's what there's I've got a lot you
can find me on LinkedIn
My bio on LinkedIn and You can also find
me on Instagram and Instagram has got
access to the youtubes that I've done
even though I am done that I've got a lot
of youtubes ready to go and to upload But
I I've just been busy doing other things
I just didn't you know if I was for me to
do it But you can you can find me on them
things and there's a lot of information a
lot of good free
information On the Instagram perfect.
Well point to people there Nick.
Thank you so much your time.
This has been a great conversation I look
forward to another one in the future
Yeah, brilliant Rob.
Thank you very much.
Thanks for having me