Welcome to Transit Unplugged.

I'm Paul Comfort, and on this episode of Transit Unplugged, we

speak with Arthur Nicolet Chief Executive Officer of Transdev Canada.

This is our third episode that we recorded while at the CUTA

conference in Edmonton, Canada.

This is, a great episode where we talk about contracting in

Canada, which is so prevalent.

Across the nation as it is here in the United States and really across the world.

And Arthur heads up one of the largest companies in Canada that

operates contract services for transit agencies around the country.

We also filmed an episode of Transit Unplugged TV while we were

there in Edmonton, Canada, and it is live airing now on YouTube.

You can go to our YouTube channel, Transit Unplugged TV, and check out the

show and see some of the interview and, uh, see what we're talking about there.

On next week's episode, our year end review, make sure you

tune in then and subscribe today so you never miss an episode.

We interview Paul Skitellis.

We move from Canada here to the U.

S.

Paul Skoutelis is CEO of APTA, the American Public Transportation

Association, and also Petra Mollet who is the, who is head of their

international programs there.

And so Paul talks about what's happening, the trends coming out

of this year into 2024, what the lessons learned were in 2023.

And Petra talks about some of their international travels that APTA took

this last year to places like Australia and also Barcelona and lessons they

learned from transit agencies there.

It's a phenomenal episode.

I think you'll enjoy both of them.

And now let's tune into our interview with Arthur Nicolet we recorded it

live while at the CUTA conference.

in Edmonton, Canada.

Great to be at the Canadian Urban Transit Association's conference in Edmonton,

Canada, with my Canadian friends, and great to have with us today Arthur

Nicolet who is CEO of Transdev Canada.

Thanks for being a guest today.

And it's a pleasure to be here.

I guess it's, you know, Transdev is the world's largest

contracting company, that contracts to operate public transportation.

Is that right?

I mean, that's what

Correct.

That's the biggest private operator worldwide, so

Right.

Yeah, and I've interviewed several of the leaders of the company over the years.

You know, in my background, I actually work for a company, Yellow Transportation

in Baltimore that was bought by Connex, which became Viola, which became Transdev.

And so I got a little bit of connection there.

But tell us some about your company and the role you play here in Canada.

uh, as you told, as you said, you know, that's the biggest of,

you know, private virtual worldwide.

It's a multi modal company where it's all modes of transportation.

And I came here five years ago in Canada.

Just to develop our operation across Canada.

Oh, yeah, really, we started really with small operation,

transit operation around Montreal.

And really the objective it was, you know, to become, you know, the first

multimodal operator across Canada.

And, you know, for the past five years, it went well, of course, with

ups and down, like in any industry and organization because of COVID,

because of so many challenges that we have, but so far we develop activities

in the rail with P3 projects in Ontario, especially with your Ontario.

with Ontario line, which is the automatic metro.

Uh, we have developed also our operation in the medical transportation, and

we are the leader in Ontario as well.

We have now with, uh, you know, our new acquisition in the west part of Canada.

We have lots of operation in B.

C.

What did you acquire?

Uh, First Transit.

Oh, right.

Oh, with first transit.

Yeah, sure, sure.

So now we have, you know, operation in the West Coast of Canada,

and that brings also new talents as well.

So yeah, it's a, it was a quite a journey, Yeah.

You know, I'm literally born and raised at Transdev.

So I've done all my career there.

Is that right?

Oh yeah.

I started out, you know, by an internship and then I moved, you know.

So from a really small operation, I was GM, and then I moved, you

know, step by step, all kind of position inside the organization.

Wow, that's cool.

Yeah.

So like, what was the job you had right before you came to Canada?

I was in charge of the P3 project, the biggest

one in France, in Normandy.

Oh, in Normandy.

Yeah, correct.

For a city.

So we were in charge, and maybe, you know, it comes from contracting.

Uh huh.

It was the way we delegate, you know, the operation, the clients delegate.

It's really, you are in charge of the ridership, you are in charge of the fares,

uh, you are in charge of investment.

Operation and maintenance.

So really it's a full scope of operations.

Okay, so let's talk about that.

Let's unpack P3s for a minute.

public private partnerships are a methodology that government

agencies or PTAs sometimes use to build maintain and operate, right?

So talk to us about how that works because I don't think we've really talked about

that too much on this podcast before, but it's used worldwide as a methodology.

I believe it's really a great and smart approach.

Of course, we need guidelines in this kind of project, but it's

a way, you know, to be creative.

we talk a lot, especially nowadays, that we are short in funding, so we need to

be creative, but if we want to build new solutions, innovative solutions, we

need to bring together, manufacturers, construction companies, operators..

And of course, the, the clients, which represents, uh, the passengers and,

and the people, the community and all together work, together to find

the best solution, the best scenario.

Yes.

And that, that could be something great.

Which could be a P3, right?

That could be a P3.

So let's say a city wants to build a new rail line.

Yeah.

So walk us through how that might work.

But, you know, in that way, of course, the CTO will release

the RFP, and then, you know, the objective for the private operators

and partners, just for, you know, you build, you know, a consortium,

so you are several, you know, around.

Uh, each of, uh, of us brings, you know, uh, a piece of the solutions.

Yes.

Right.

So sometimes these consortiums might have 20 companies in 'em, right.

That are, that are building, uh, let's say a rail line.

So you might have someone who's doing the groundwork Correct.

And then someone who's doing the rail work.

So one company would kinda lead, but it could be a consortium or a large

group of companies that bid, right?

That's correct.

Yeah.

And the beauty of that, that there is, you know, it.

It's an intense discussion between, you know, all the stakeholders.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

You know, we are trying always to find what is the best, the optimum solution

for the client, for the passenger.

Yes.

For, you know, to be efficient and performance and that's great.

And sometimes when you're in the middle of the process, things happen

that you weren't planning on, right?

So then you have to work closely with the PTA, the Public Transport

Authority, to solve those problems.

Of course, you know, it's, it's always a discussion,

discussion with the clients, discussion, you know, with the other partners.

The thing is, you need to listen a lot to understand what are the

constraints of all the stakeholders if you want to find the best solution.

And that's great because sometimes, you know, you have RFP with,

you know, strict guidelines.

And that's not so, uh, allow us, you know, to, to provide the creativity, innovation.

But when you have, you know, you know, and you told you that, you know, you know,

more opportunities, more autonomy to be creative, you can find better solution.

And that's great.

When I was, uh, when I was head of the MTA in Baltimore, we

did a, uh, P3 project for something called the Purple Line, which is a

rail line outside of Washington, D.

C., and I remember when people were explaining to me, you know, the reasons

why a P3 would be good here, they'd already made that decision before I got

there, but it was so, it said, the way we design these, and tell me if this has been

your experience, so they use an elevator, for example, so you have an elevator in

a rail station, and in a traditional, proposal, they would tell you the steel

has to be this thick, you have to have this kind of electricity, it would be

very, uh, descriptive and prescriptive.

But in a P3, they would say, build us an elevator, Transdev, and we

want it to be, uh, to transport 1, 000 people every 30 minutes.

The ability to do that.

So they would give you kind of the goal and let you use your own creativity.

Is that how you've experienced P3s in France and other places?

That's correct.

Yeah.

And I will have something, you know, on what you explain.

That's the cost of operation and maintenance.

Right.

That's something which is really interesting, because you

can have P3 project just for the design and construction.

Okay.

But you can have also P3s.

Design, construction, operation, and maintenance over the 30 years.

And we know, you know, when it comes to investment, that matters a lot.

Absolutely.

The cost of operation and maintenance.

Could be crucial.

And so, if you consider these parts, you may change your,

the investment or the design.

That's right.

That has a major impact.

At the end, it's more cost effective for, for the community.

Yeah.

And sometimes I think people feel like if a private company is going

to be responsible for the operation for 30 years, they're going to make sure

that the construction is going well.

You know, to the highest standards.

When it comes to reliability, you know, when it comes, you know, okay, well, we,

we will maintain this kind of system.

We.

We will have an opinion if it's, you know, effective enough, if it's

working, the performance, we will look at other operations, locations around

the world, and we bring the knowledge and say, yeah, well, that's great,

but maybe we can do something better.

Yeah, maybe you learned something in Hong Kong or somewhere

that you can bring to Canada, right?

And also it's a balance.

Sometimes, you know, because, you know, we love technology innovation

and we can bring something which could be expensive and, you know,

not making enough savings when it comes for operation and maintenance.

Right.

So maybe it's better to have a bit more for operation and maintenance

and reduce the investment.

So it's always a balance.

Yeah.

And that's the beauty of that.

P3 projects, when it's, when it includes, you know, operation and maintenance.

You can have, you know, more creative approach.

Yeah, that's great.

Thanks, R.

That's good.

I know we weren't planning on talking about that, but that was very interesting.

So, let's now, uh, kind of pivot to contracting in general.

So, public transit agencies across Canada, the United States, Europe,

everywhere, sometimes they decide they don't want to operate things themselves.

They feel like there's value in Getting a contractor to come in.

Take us from there.

So, of course, across Canada, first, you have different

kind of authorities, many authorities.

You have, you know, school boards for the school, you know, contract,

but you have, you know, agencies.

Or, uh, cities, municipalities, you know, for the transit.

So all across Canada, you know, um, we have different kind of

contract contracting way to, uh, to provide the service.

Okay.

Uh, they all release RFPs, of course.

But the scope of operation could be really different from the east

part to the west part of Canada.

That's something, you know, uh, uh, different and you know how

there is not bad or good, you know, things, it's a different approach.

So sometimes, you know, the authorities, the clients, uh, delegates just, you

know, the operation and maintenance.

Okay.

So they keep their assets.

buses, you know, the buildings, et cetera, of course, uh, you know, they keep all

the risks also on their side, you know, when it comes to fuel or ridership, yes,

but it could be different, especially, you know, in Quebec, in Quebec, we

invest on the fleets, we invest on the buildings, so we own the building and the

fleets, so we bring something different.

In Ontario, it could be also different, it depends, the school

transportation, we bring everything.

So, yeah, that's really different in, you know, in a province than the other.

Yeah.

When I was over in France, uh, and in, um, the United Kingdom, I also noticed that

in some places they take the revenue risk.

The contractors are keeping, uh, the revenue that's raised, and so you want

to make the service as accessible as possible to most passengers, because

that's the money, but that's not always the way here in Canada and America, is it?

Unfortunately, it's not yet the case, as I said, you know, that's

interesting when you have a larger scope for an operator, because you can bring

more value, you know, it's great to have smart people around, and I'm not saying

that we are the only smart people, there are plenty of smart people, but if you

want to express the creativity, you need to give, you know, a bit more autonomy,

and again, when it comes to ridership, Uh, if we can do great things, we can

bring ideas, uh, like, uh, network design, even, you know, you ask, you know, the

expectation of the clients, of course, and we can bring different things.

We can, uh, bring the transport and demand.

We can have, you know, a fixed route line, define, you know, the time table,

maybe with a different way that we provide and make more savings as well,

or be more efficient for the passengers.

I think that's interesting, Arthur, because a lot of times in the

United States, at least, uh, because I used to work in a public transit agency,

but I've also worked a contractor, so I've seen it on both sides.

A lot of times a public transit agency will dictate every little detail and

the contractor is more like a vendor.

Yeah.

But whereas like in Europe, where you came from in France, uh, it

seems like you're more partners.

Can you talk about that?

The difference between working with a contractor more as a partner who can offer

ideas and suggestions on how to improve the service versus just the transit

agency thinking, you know, they know it all and this is what it's going to be.

it's, it's likely like a partnership, of course, because you know,

the clients and the authorities is always here, you know, in Europe, you know,

following everything and approve or not.

All any, you know, initiative, but the beauty of that, even if, you

know, the client has an idea you can, you know, provide and give your

ideas you can challenge each other.

And from that, maybe, you know, you, we keep, you know, the guidance

from, from the client, or maybe we can change, maybe we can adapt.

And that's interesting.

And we, you know, I believe, you know, in the Canadian market, I'm, you know,

I'm a strong supporter just to, and I say to all, you know, the clients.

You should, you should, you know, open a bit, you know, just

say, okay, if you have an idea.

Let's talk about it.

Just that.

There's no commitment, but less, you know, space for that.

Like brainstorming.

Like brainstorming.

Like an option.

Like, you know, what could be an alternative scenario?

Yes.

There's a book I read a long time ago called A Whack on the Side of the Head.

It's by a guy named Roger Van Orck.

And one of the great lessons I learned from that was that a lot of times

when you're looking for a solution to a problem, you stop at the first

solution that potentially fits.

It's almost like you lost your car keys and you stopped

looking once you find them.

But he suggested in this book, whacking the side of the head,

think differently, right?

Look for a second solution, another alternative, because that

may be a more elegant solution to solve more of the issues.

And that's what you're talking about, it seems to me, like an opportunity for the

public transit agency and the contractor to kind of brainstorm about ideas and

share and maybe come up with a better solution than either one on their own

could have, could have come up with.

Totally.

That's, that's true.

And that could be better for the passengers, for the community as well.

So, yeah, you know, it's, it's great.

We talk about talents, we talk about diversity and it's why,

by the way, diversity matters.

It's not only a social challenge.

It's also, you know, a way to bring new ideas, new views, cultural, you know,

how we can challenge the statu quo.

And I believe we have a lot to do in this area, and there are lots of opportunities.

So it's why we need to maybe to change and make, you know, an evolution in the RFPs.

Just to open a bit the door and let you know, you know, a way, an opportunity

to provide ideas and to be creative.

So let's talk about that.

Some of the new challenges that are coming up, of course, across Canada,

across the United States and the world.

There's a big push to move toward . Public transit's already a very clean

medium, meaning even if you're using a diesel bus, it's cleaner than running

50 or 60 cars on the street, right?

But we're trying to do even better than that and move to

battery electric and hydrogen.

Private contractors sometimes, so let's say a medium sized transit agency,

they may not have all this expertise and experience in setting up the

charging infrastructure and creating the scope of work for the buses, but

a company, a contractor like Transdev or Keolis or National Express that has

experience all over the world or ITPDev, You guys have, I mean, I think your

company operates more electric buses than anybody in the world, don't you?

Like 6, 000 buses, I think Thierry told me.

Thierry Malle, your CEO.

Yeah, of course.

Outside China, we are the first, you know, private operator of electric buses.

Yeah.

And we are proud of that.

the value we can bring.

You know how to do this.

You've done it.

We have done that in so many places with different,

you know, climate conditions.

Oh, yeah.

So we can bring the value of that.

That's, you know, the value that we can bring to our clients.

These new technologies, you've done them elsewhere.

You can bring that experience to a small or mid sized transit,

even a large transit agency.

Yeah, and that could be, you know, a key element, you know, when

it comes to make a decision, a major investment for, you know, an authority.

Yes.

I'd be far to invest in, I don't know.

Millions of dollars in one system, and it could be interesting to have a discussion

with, you know, an operator like Transdev.

And because we can talk about, you know, hold the cost, the, you know, the

life cycle cost for the next 30 years.

That's matter because sometimes, of course, when you are a

manufacturer, you want to sell your innovation, and that's great.

Uh, no offense on that, but you know, uh, after that you have to

operate and maintain and there are some restrictions when it comes

to operating an electric bus.

There are some, you know, costs, uh, linked to that and that's, that's great

also to have the discretion and maybe, you know, the client can, you know, fine

tune, adjust, you know, uh, you know, the requirements for, for, for the business.

And maybe even like on demand transit, right?

A lot of places now coming out of the pandemic are realizing that they need to

adjust their service offerings, right?

So a 40 foot bus may not be the solution for one community.

Maybe the solution there is on demand transit, but they

don't really know how to do it.

But you guys have done this all over the world.

Contractors have experience everywhere.

So it's almost like you can offload the risk onto a private

company who's already done this.

it comes from network design.

So, of course, you know, the question and the objective is, you know, how you

move people in the city or in the area.

And the thing is, the way we can organize, we can do it in different ways.

With fixed routes, or transport and demand, as usual, or with other solutions.

There are new solutions, you know, and that's key to open a bit, provide

expertise on the, on the network design.

Also, we can bring something there and we can bring, you know, the knowledge

from, you know, all those operations and think, well, we can, you, we can

approach, we can organize the network.

With different modes of transportation, we can use also the taxi, we can use

big buses, we can use heavy rail, we can use transport on demand.

That's the mix which could be more efficient in the future, really

believe on the multi modal approach.

It will be more efficient for the passengers and it will be more

efficient for the budgets as well.

That's good.

Now you are an international company, operate, I don't know, 19

countries or maybe more than that now.

Uh, do you work much with Laura Hendricks in America who heads up Transdev America?

Do you guys like talk to each other?

Oh yeah, we have a regular meeting, one to one meeting every month.

We have plenty of things and, and you know, Uh, project and challenges

together, so we work closely, of course, you know, it's, you know,

it's our cousin, we are just cousins.

Yeah, that's a good way to, cousins, yeah, that's great.

So let's talk about the future a little bit, Arthur.

Uh, you've got this, you know, grand company over the whole world, and you can

kind of see what's happening everywhere, and I'm sure you connect in with your

corporate folks now and then, and they let you know what's happening globally.

Where are we headed?

So we're at the end of 2023.

What's going to happen in 2024?

What are the trends you see coming?

I believe it's more or less the same situation

in Canada and maybe in the U.

S.

We are, there is, uh, uh, the ridership is recovering.

Coming back a little bit.

Beyond that, it's better, but there is a key question about how we can fund.

public transportation.

Public and funded,

yes.

Yeah, they were talking about that today.

Kevin Quinn, who, uh, who, his service is at 90 percent ridership, but they're

concerned about funding still, yeah.

So we need, we need, again, we need to bring

solutions for our clients.

Okay.

We need to give more performance.

And I believe we can do better on that way.

We, uh, we are open for the discussion and find ways with our

clients how we can solve this, you know, major challenge together.

And I believe that we can be, again, we can bring solutions.

So, one of the acronyms that Thierry used to use is PACE.

Personalized, Autonomous.

Was it contracted and electric?

What was it?

I forget what they all stood for, but that was a great acronym,

I thought, pulling it together.

So, uh, what are some of the other big trends you see happening?

Obviously, we're moving toward electric, potentially even hydrogen buses.

We're here in Edmonton where they have, uh, I'm going to go see it later today,

uh, which I, I love the hydrogen option.

What, what else is happening in the world of, you know, zero emissions, et cetera?

Of course, electrification is, is really at the forefront, and, uh,

we develop a lot of our fleets everywhere, and also In Canada, especially in Quebec,

we use, you know, the yellow buses.

Yes.

Now, nearly 100 yellow buses electric.

Really?

And we are really proud of that.

And we keep going, you know, you know, roll out, not only school

buses, but also transit operation that will be part of our roadmap.

you know, of course, we have different kinds of, you know, solution.

We are working also on the autonomous vehicle.

It would be the future.

Yeah, let's talk about it.

I wrote an autonomous vehicle last week, operated by Google Waymo,

which you guys, I think, operate through in America, Transdev.

It was, I've been in autonomous vehicles before, but there's always

been like a safety concierge in there.

This is the first one I was in when there was nobody in the driver's seat.

And it came, I sat right next to it.

It's kind of freaky, but it's kind of cool.

It's really impressive.

Yeah.

And even if it's not for tomorrow, you know, because of course there are many,

uh, you know, things to, to, to improve, but still, I believe that will be,

you know, the next, you know, uh, uh, industrial revolution for the mobility.

Yes.

That will be a really a game changer, the way that we design, even the city,

the way we, uh, move the people around.

I believe that would be, you know, a fantastic, you

know, uh, opportunity to see.

So yes, there's still, you know, steps to achieve, you know, Uh, an industrial

bus, you know, something which is working very well, but still it's really

promising and that could, you know, it's a way also to, uh, to provide more

services, especially, you know, nights and nights, and I'm a strong believer

that we can keep also human, you know, presence in this transit network.

It's not, you know, uh, You know, it's not a threat on that side, but

we can be creative, you know, we can imagine tomorrow the buses, you know,

especially for the, for the younger, for the schooler, schooler, you can have

someone inside the bus, you know, to look at, you know, the children's yes.

And it would be better.

We can create value on that.

And I really believe that we can, you know, yeah, that

could be fantastic as well.

Where do you see the role of like artificial intelligence?

Everybody's talking about it now, you know, with chat, GPT, but there's so many

more things that can happen with that.

Do you, do you have any comments on how that can be, how transportation can?

Sure, that, that, that will allow definitely, you know, to

have a better, you know, understanding how, you know, the network is working.

So that's the first , analyze all the data, the ridership, you know,

the analysis, you know, the, you know, we know that, you know, after

the pandemic, you know, people are changing, you know, they are not

working, you know, every day, every week.

And that could be, you know, uh, a great tool, you know, to anticipate.

Yes.

You know, uh, and to adapt also, uh, you know, our transitory network in

real time to be a bit more agile.

Yes.

'cause you know, when we design, you know, timetable, you know, nce.

Uh, but we can be a bit more adaptive.

Right.

And, and with this kind of tool, could be, you do it.

Artificial intelligence could take that data.

So we're in Edmonton, the home of Wayne Gretzky and the Edmonton Oilers, and

he famously said, skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it is.

And it sounds like that's what you're saying artificial

intelligence can do for us.

It can kind of tell us where we need to be going and get there.

For sure, and not only on the ridership, but also that could

help us, you know, to understand the mobility, you know, as a whole, you know,

when you would like to, uh, provide a multi modal, you know, network to the

city, it's complex, you need to make a lot of analysis, you know, the city, the

roads, you know, the customer expectation, uh, the, the, you know, emissions, CO2

emission, plenty of factors, and it's really hard for you, just human, you know.

To, you know, integrate all these kind of parameters, but, you know, the, the, uh,

intelligent, artificial intelligence can provide that, that can do that better.

Of course, you need, you know, a human look at that.

But still, it's working, it's improving, and I believe it's promising as well.

That's great.

Well, as we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to say to

kind of sum up things, or anything you want to say at the end here?

pleased, you know, to be here.

I, I, I really just, you know, I would like to insist on these points.

I, I, I believe, you know, for the upcoming, Uh, years.

We are in a, you know, challenging period when it comes to funding,

you know, public transportation.

And definitely we need to be creative.

We need to be creative.

And we, and if you know, you know, our, the authority could open, beat the door.

Let's a space even just, you know, just an idea.

It's not a commitment, but at least you know, let a space to be creative,

to challenge, to bring new things, an approach to solve this major challenge.

Very good.

We're facing.

Arthur Nicolet CEO of Transdev Canada.

Thanks for being our guest today and best wishes as you continue to provide creative

ideas to promote mobility across Canada.

Thank you so much, Paul.

Looking forward.

Hi, this is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.

And thank you for listening to the penultimate episode of 2023

with our special guest Arthur Nicolet CEO of Transdev Canada.

Now coming up next week is our last regular episode of 2023.

And we have none other than Paul Skoutelas CEO of APTA and Petra Mollet, VP of

Strategy and International programs at APTA, talking with Paul about

what's happened this year in transit.

And what do we have to look forward to in 2024?

It is a great interview and you are sure to enjoy it.

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