Psych Flex

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to season 5 episode 47 of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:07] can really be a feature of this inflexibility, perhaps our mind is in time travel mode, where we're just anticipating, if your mind's anything like mine, all the catastrophic things that, it's not the catastrophic things that might go wrong, it's the catastrophic things that will go wrong, if I start to move towards this thing that matters to me.

[00:00:29] So I think that's one of the things that can just stop me. in my tracks and keep me glued to my seat if you like. And it's almost the certainty isn't it your mind is telling you, this will

[00:00:42] Richard: happen and it's terrible. So do whatever it takes to avoid it happening. that inertia stops us from doing stuff that we know is important or worthwhile, or even in our best interests. Maybe not right now, but over time. And of course, we treat those images as facts.

[00:01:04] We treat those catastrophes as inevitable. And it has an impact on our behavior now, which is how we start to notice this, this rigidity, this inflexibility. We're almost missing out on great opportunities because of a story our mind has told us.

[00:01:20] Ross: P Supers, here's the start of a mini series. It's a new collaboration with Dr Richard McKinnon from Work Life Psych.

[00:01:28] And we're going to delve into all things related to psychological flexibility and act. That's acceptance and commitment therapy. We're aiming to show you how relevant it is, Not only to your work life, but to your whole life. Listen on as we launch the mini series with a chat about psychological inflexibility and psychological flexibility.

[00:01:49] And what they can both lead to in our lives. [00:02:00] now, for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, Hi, hola, Welcome to the community. We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun.

[00:02:16] Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioural science.

[00:02:22] let's just scoot over to the news desk because reviews are in for our last episode which was part three of my chat with Michaela Thomas and we talked about her spacious adventure. On X, Dr Rachel Leigh said. Hi Ross and Michaela.

[00:02:35] I loved this. It resonated with me on so many levels. The move from CBT to ACT and from somatic to holistic approaches. Developing more flexibility, noticing what we need and valuing that. so eloquently described. I loved hearing your journey, Michaela. Well, amen to that, Rachel. Absolutely agree.

[00:02:55] Now, pea soup as you might have heard that the bookmarks have landed. Each review that's read out on the show will receive a couple of our freshly designed bookmarks. Dispatched by my dad in the Global Distribution Center in the Northeast Powerhouse. what more of an incentive do you need to write a review on social media or on your favorite podcast platform? please do keep reviewing, writing, sharing, and talking about the podcast. when you do that, you'll help more people find us, and all the useful PeopleSoup stuff.

[00:03:23] My Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer program is rapidly approaching. It's a collaboration with Contextual Consulting and if you'd like to bring evidence based training to support well being and psychological flexibility in the organizations that you work with, then look no further.

[00:03:37] Details are in the show notes, including a discount code. For now, get a brew on And have a listen to the mini series, Part 1 of my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon.

[00:03:47] Richard: Hello and welcome to a new series, a collaborative series all about the concept known as [00:04:00] psychological flexibility. I'm Dr. Richard McKinnon. I'm a chartered psychologist and coach and I am joined and will be joined for the next few episodes by

[00:04:09] Ross: Hi, I'm Ross McIntosh. I'm delighted to be here, possibly slightly giddy, and I'm an organizational psychologist and coach.

[00:04:19] Richard: So Ross, I've been waiting for this for a little while. the opportunity to do this. And really this episode is about introducing what we're going to do across, a series of several episodes examining the different facets of this concept that we're both. Very interested in. And we both use in our work with our clients and we're spacing it out over a few episodes so that we can do each of these facets, each of these skills, do them some justice and go into them in a little bit of depth.

[00:04:48] So I'm delighted that we're making a start today.

[00:04:52] Ross: Me too. I think it's going to be such a useful exploration for us, firstly, to combine our different perspectives and hopefully that then that will make it a useful reflection point, maybe even a resource for our respective listeners.

[00:05:09] Richard: Absolutely. I would love if each of these episodes became a bit of an evergreen, thing thing that people could go back and revisit in the future when they want to know a little bit more about that. Bit so it's probably worth listeners and viewers understanding that it is each of these are standalone But they link with the preceding and the following episode and we'll do that Signposting for you so you can see how each of these episodes links with the others builds on the others And we're going to follow a bit of a story As we go through it as to the why we have it in a certain order.

[00:05:42] But maybe let's start at the very beginning and talk about words. Because words matter. And this whole series is about something that we call psychological flexibility. That's our end point. We want to develop psychological flexibility. But the framework we're going to walk you through is something [00:06:00] called And that is traditionally, um, something that stands for acceptance and commitment therapy in the workplace.

[00:06:08] It's often referred to as acceptance and commitment theory because we're not talking about therapy necessarily. And it's brought to life in a whole range of different contexts. Yes, the therapeutic, but also education, social work. coaching in the workplace, uh, training, uh, for life skills. So we'll talk about ACT as a framework, and we'll talk about psychological flexibility as the skill we develop once we've practiced, the skills that make up the ACT framework.

[00:06:38] Have I done that justice so far, Ross?

[00:06:40] Ross: Beautiful. In fact, I was captivated there. I thought, oh, I'm just, I'm just listening to an episode of My Pocket Psyche and then I thought, oh God, he's asked me a question.

[00:06:49] Richard: That's really interesting because you will, uh, depending on what you listen to be hearing this as part of the episodes of my pocket psych. You might be listening to this as a listener of people soup and going, what in the blazes is my pocket psych? It doesn't matter. You're listening to this, whatever stream you're finding it on, or you've stumbled across it on YouTube.

[00:07:10] It doesn't matter. What we're really keen is to get these ideas and these skills in front of the biggest audience possible, so as many people as possible can start putting them into practice and reap the benefits of doing that.

[00:07:24] Ross: Yeah, that's so important. I love the way you described that mission, Richard, because these are skills I certainly wasn't taught at school in the olden days and certainly not in any of my further higher education or training. Well, eventually, yes, but it took a while.

[00:07:40] Richard: Absolutely. And I would argue, and we're not lone voices in this regard, that a focus on these skills, these are skills for life. These aren't just for the workplace. These are skills that help us navigate. life full stop. So maybe, you know, what are the benefits of this? We're making a plea to [00:08:00] say, Hey guys, listen to this and start doing it.

[00:08:02] But what are the benefits of cultivating our psychological flexibility? Do you want to start us off there with some examples? I

[00:08:09] Ross: I'll have a go, yeah. I think, well, first of all, personally, for me, if I think about the impact these skills have had on me, I'm quite an anxious fellow. I come from a long line of catastrophizers. So, if I think about how my mind can escalate an everyday occurrence to utter catastrophe in nanoseconds, then it's really fundamentally changed my own relationship with my anxiety. Which has freed me up to pursue more about what matters to me. What has importance to me? What deep down without societal pressures, those shoulds and those musts, how am I creating the route that I want to take in life, that has meaning and purpose for me, and I'm not overly, um, what's the word I'd use?

[00:08:58] Influenced or derailed by. The stuff my mind produces which is perhaps anxiety provoking and not that useful. So that's an example from me and another example is a life event that's happened to me in the last two to three years of moving country. You've done it Richard. I've done it a little bit more recently.

[00:09:19] But I would never have done that because I tend to map it out ahead of me. You know when you're like making a recipe, I'm the sort of person who has everything weighed out, like they do on Blue Peter. Blue Peter was a children's program, folks. I don't think it's around anymore.

[00:09:38] Richard: obviously you saw it, you saw it in the original black and white. So,

[00:09:41] Ross: exactly, exactly with Valerie Singleton and John Noakes.

[00:09:46] I digress. But I thought a big move, selling up in the UK, moving to Spain, would Traditionally, I'd want everything mapped out like a recipe. And I realized that wasn't going to work. And it was really just embracing uncertainty and moving [00:10:00] forward in a direction that collectively mattered to me and my husband.

[00:10:04] And I'm not saying it's all been sangria and sunshine, and it's been amazing ups and downs, particularly challenges caused by bureaucracy made more complex by Brexit. let's not go down that

[00:10:18] Richard: It's a different podcast.

[00:10:20] Ross: But um, it's allowed me to pursue what matters. And then, am I giving too much too many examples here Richard?

[00:10:27] Is this?

[00:10:27] Richard: They're fantastic because what I love about those, it's about the everyday. Okay, relocating doesn't happen every day, but it's about a life decision and how practicing these skills doesn't make life perfect. It just enables you to get on with life and not stumble, stumble, stumble. Or avoid difficulties, um, stumble at the first hurdle.

[00:10:48] If you like for, for my own part, you know, when I talk about it, I give examples, like it's enabled me to just pick up the phone and make the call. You know, when, when I know it needs to happen, I'll just do it past me would have agonized over all the ways that phone call could go wrong, all the ways the other person could be annoyed with me or disappointed with me.

[00:11:09] And I'm like, well, it's important. It's. You know, either I need to give this person feedback. I need to ask them why they haven't paid their bills. I need to disappoint them somehow. You know, I'll just do it. And that's a big win for me. Has it created zen calm within me? It has not, um, but it's enabled me to notice when I'm winding myself up inside.

[00:11:32] Ross: Hmm.

[00:11:32] Richard: enabled me to get really clear like you on what matters and do more of that stuff. Even though. In the moment, it's maybe not easy, but it's worthwhile. And that's something maybe we'll return to next time. This notion of time traveling, um, in the mind, it's enabled me to be more realistic about noticing my predictions or my unhelpful predictions.

[00:11:54] They go, well, that, that might never happen. So let's just focus on now. And that's the big part, being able to be [00:12:00] present in the moment. In the moment, I, the countless benefits I've reaped from that. Now, I mean, even within a day, my next meeting, well, that's my next meeting. I'm in this, and that was my previous meeting, but I'm not in it anymore.

[00:12:13] I'm in this meeting now. And that has enabled me to focus on the person in front of me, maybe on video, maybe here in my office. But I'm focused in the here and now on that person. And that, that is just what I should be doing. As a coaching psychologist and not disappearing into my mind. So yeah, just some of the ways it's, it's been really beneficial.

[00:12:35] Ross: Amen. It's lovely to hear you. Bring those to life for us and realize that sort of tangible, quite subtle benefits sometimes that we've gained from cultivating our own psychological flexibility.

[00:12:50] Richard: So what we thought would be, good, helpful would be to, and we try and avoid good versus bad, don't we? But no, what would be helpful in this episode? We'd, we'd maybe, give you a preview of what we're going to cover and then elaborate a little bit on what is for many of us, the starting point, you know, a sense of psychological.

[00:13:09] Rigidity or inflexibility, not to critique anyone, not to make anyone feel bad, but to enable you, if you're listening to this, to make the connection and go, Oh, I do that and I don't like that. So I'd like to make a change. So that's, that's our plan for today. So today is the introduction. We're going to talk about, uh, this psychological rigidity or inflexibility.

[00:13:34] We're going to talk next time, about how we can be more present, in the moment. Uh, we're going to talk about how we can get clear on what matters to us in life, those values, how we can step back from thoughts that aren't so welcoming or pleasant, how we can take action in the direction of what matters, even though it might be a little bit difficult and how we're able to have a sense of self [00:14:00] that isn't overly rigid, that isn't limiting our options and, and, um, be more, attuned to the me now, not the me that used to be, or the, the bit of me that isn't going to be around forever like a job title and be more about the the here and now and um something that is going to come up again and again is the acceptance that some of this is uncomfortable and tough but we'll do it anyway because it's important to us it matters to us and each one of these skills is separate but they all link together so we're going to keep making that point how they mutually support and how they combine to give us those nice results that we've been talking about. What can listeners expect if they continue to tune in? And we hope they will. What can they expect from us over the next few episodes?

[00:14:49] Ross: I'd suggest that what we're trying to do is interpret each of the skills from psychological flexibility. And make them accessible and every day using examples from our lives, using examples from people we've trained or coached. And really make it useful so you can recognize what this skill is and what it isn't.

[00:15:12] And give you some tips, some top tips to allow you to go away and practice and play, get experimental and curious to support your journey. And I think it's really important what you said earlier Richard is. These aren't just skills for work. These are skills for every area of your life, whether it's a relationship, whether it's your own leisure time, your time outside of work, or whether it's your own health.

[00:15:39] These are skills that we can apply in every area of life, and we certainly do. So that's what we want to do. We want to basically help you get an insight into the the skill and put it into practice in a really practical way that might even be fun.

[00:15:58] Richard: You know, some of the ways that [00:16:00] we describe these can be fun and light. So what we're not going to do is do a big download of neuroscience in your direction. There's plenty of other places you can find that. One of the things that first attracted me to the whole practice of ACT was its reliance on imagery and metaphors and taking these incredibly complex things and making them accessible.

[00:16:20] So they're the principles. I'd really like us to, to apply in this. And something that I think sets this apart, this ACT approach, particularly in coaching, is the use of self, you know, traditionally, a lot of coaches are trained not to bring themselves into it at all, because it's not about them. It's about the coaching client, the coachee, but actually a lot of ACT practitioners in coaching context and in training contexts, I've noticed as well, will use their own lived experience as an example, not as the bar to reach, but to emphasize shared humanity.

[00:16:55] You know, this is something we all have because we all have a mind and these are ways it can show up or be developed or be dealt with by all of us. So as we go through these, I'd love to share those examples from both of us because I don't want anyone listening to this to be under any illusions. We're both fallible humans and knowing this stuff is not the same as doing this stuff, right?

[00:17:20] So you can have the textbook definitions imprinted In your memory, practicing this is an ongoing thing. Neither of us, I don't think have reached some kind of self actualization stage. Uh, we're both working at this and, um, yeah, sharing our perspective can, can make that a little bit human.

[00:17:41] Ross: you're absolutely right. In some of the, the research we've done, we've actually interviewed people. This is in my partnership with Dr. Paul Flaxman at City University of London. We've interviewed people who've been trained by me and the things that stick in their mind quite frequently were. self disclosure from me about [00:18:00] my life.

[00:18:01] And for me, if that helps someone understand a concept, or make it more relatable, or remember it, then heck, it's a win.

[00:18:10] Richard: Absolutely. Absolutely. So it's not, the, the Ross and Richard therapy hour or anything like it. It's more a case of here, here's an example. And you know what? We'd love to hear your examples. We'd love to hear how you're, uh, how this is landing with you and how you're putting it into practice over the next few episodes.

[00:18:28] So as we approach the end, we'll talk about how you can get in touch with us to let us know that stuff and ask us, your questions. But it's now a good time to look at our, our big theme for today, which is. psychological inflexibility or rigidity is the sort of starting point, not in, in, in totality, but where we might find ourselves when we want to make a change.

[00:18:50] Ross: Yeah, I think so.

[00:18:51] Richard: What would be one of the main, illustrative examples, let's put it that way, of this inflexibility? How might that show up?

[00:19:01] Ross: I think one way, it would be just that, I'd say, hesitation or inertia. The incapacity to move, to take that first step, the step you don't want to take, to quote a poem, which we'll probably come back to at some point, but launching yourself. Just that rigidity of fear or perhaps not being clear on how it's going to end up or the direction we're going in.

[00:19:27] I think that can, can really be a feature of this inflexibility, perhaps our mind is in time travel mode, where we're just anticipating, if your mind's anything like mine, all the catastrophic things that, it's not the catastrophic things that might go wrong, it's the catastrophic things that will go wrong, if I start to move towards this thing that matters to me.

[00:19:50] So I think that's one of the things that can just stop me. in my tracks and keep me glued to my seat if you like. And it's [00:20:00] almost the certainty isn't it your mind is telling you, this will

[00:20:03] Richard: happen and it's terrible. So do whatever it takes to avoid it happening. that inertia stops us from doing stuff that we know is important or worthwhile, or even in our best interests. Maybe not right now, but over time. And of course, we treat those images as facts.

[00:20:25] We treat those catastrophes as inevitable. And it has an impact on our behavior now, which is how we start to notice this, this rigidity, this inflexibility. We're almost missing out on great opportunities because of a story our mind has told us. It's what it boils down to.

[00:20:44] Ross: we're so rigidly attached to that story. So do you ever come across people who say, oh I'm just, and then they give their job title. I'm just the bottle washer. And it kind of breaks my heart when I hear that because You can almost hear, they're almost showing you their story of this is where I am, I'm not capable, I'm not worthy, whatever it might be.

[00:21:09] And they're getting in their own way.

[00:21:13] Richard: Absolutely. Having a very set, rule based view of yourself that's maybe not amenable to change or, or is maybe out of date. You know, the example I consistently share is when middle aged adults tell me, well, I'm no good with numbers because something a primary school teacher told them. And it's still in their view of themselves.

[00:21:35] Their self concept includes, I'm no good with numbers. So they hold themselves back from doing anything with numbers. Yeah.

[00:21:43] Ross: Oh, hell yeah. What about I'm not creative? When I've got a leader talking about how they pivot and change ways that they present stuff to a client in multiple different ways. Perspectives and viewpoints and then I maybe make a comment about, [00:22:00] I can really see your creativity at work and they go, Oh, no, I'm not creative.

[00:22:06] And I said, well, what have you just described to me? That feels very creative or the other one that I sticks in my mind is adventure.

[00:22:16] Richard: Mm

[00:22:16] Ross: I'm not the adventurous type. And for some reason, people I talk to about adventure. They say, oh, I'd never do a bungee jump. And I, what the hell has adventure got to do with a bungee jump?

[00:22:28] Because I, I take the view that one man's bungee jump is another man going to the supermarket and buying a different brand of washing powder.

[00:22:36] Richard: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:38] Ross: Mmm. Mmm.

[00:22:42] Richard: going, changing the walk you take to work, mixing things up a little bit. But, and these sound very pedestrian, but they're often symptomatic of, uh, uh, an inflexible view of yourself that's self limiting. I'm only, I can't, I just, I must, I have to.

[00:23:02] And then over identification with aspects of yourself. So something we'll talk about quite a bit across this series is the importance of recognizing the impermanence of most things and treating them in that way. So the impermanence of our relationships, they're not going to be around forever, you know, by definition, but also in the workplace, the impermanence of your job. over identifying with a job title or a level of seniority can bring out the worst in people, especially when they feel that it's being threatened somehow. And so because that is core to who they are, that's how they view it, they will behave, when they feel that's threatened in ways they're not going to feel good about later.

[00:23:44] So our identity, our self concept is hugely complex,

[00:23:48] Ross: And to notice that, perhaps that way we're showing up that's no longer useful or is having an adverse impact on the people around us, we have to be noticing that. And [00:24:00] sometimes we won't. We'll just be blithely plowing through, impacting on people in an unhelpful way.

[00:24:06] But, God damn it, we're achieving

[00:24:11] Richard: Yeah, yeah, because this isn't it a lot of the time it's not completely irrational what we do In fact, we could tell ourselves a good story as to why this is the helpful thing to do I think it's the rigidity of it. There's the there's no flexibility in it So we've limited ourselves to certain options and that means we'll we'll get the results we're expecting but nothing more nothing less, and we're narrowing our field of vision just on certain things and neglecting other things.

[00:24:41] And, One of the leading lights in this space, Professor Frank Bond. I remember being in front of him when he gave a presentation and he did this really physical movement about life getting smaller and smaller, you know, because you're avoiding your, your discounting opportunities. You don't want to take the risk of, and so you stick to what is certain and how many things are certain in life.

[00:25:04] That would be a very, very small life. If you were able to say, this will definitely follow this.

[00:25:10] Ross: Absolutely, and that not being prepared tolerate any sort of uncertainty, not being prepared to sit with ambiguity, uncertainty, uncomfortable feelings inside of us. Not just being able to give ourselves the space to sit with that is something that we often touch upon in either group training or, or coaching.

[00:25:34] It's just that, that's just. Let's just take a breath and sit with that. And I see that amplified at, at a boardroom level, a whole boardroom who are complicit in not sitting with the difficult, not addressing the, what you might describe as the elephant in the room. But I digress

[00:25:56] Richard: Well, it translates, yeah, it translates into [00:26:00] everyday things like, you know, I don't want the discomfort of being embarrassed, so I won't ask the question. I don't want the discomfort of being wrong, so I won't answer the question. I don't want the discomfort of being rejected, so I won't apply for the job, you know.

[00:26:15] So we're putting the cart before the horse and trying to guarantee comfort. And therefore limiting our options. And we're discounting things immediately because there's a risk or we're anticipating some discomfort. And to come back to the bungee jump, I use that as an example all the time. What we generally talk about in discomfort are thoughts and feelings we don't want to experience.

[00:26:35] We're not talking about pain or risk to life and limb. It's sensible to be aware of those. That's how we've evolved and our mind has evolved to keep us safe. But it, it can from time to time, overplay that risk averse nature and tell us things are dangerous when they're not, they're just uncomfortable.

[00:26:54] And that's a big part of this, noticing the difference and being honest with yourself about the difference between real risk and danger versus stepping out of my comfort zone. And it opens up a whole new world of possibilities as long as you're prepared to accept that in doing that it could be uncomfortable for a time and that's okay.

[00:27:16] Ross: Yeah, absolutely. That's okay.

[00:27:20] Richard: Something that comes up in, in discussions with people who use acts in therapeutic contexts is the importance of saying to people, you know, if you practice these methods and develop these skills Your anxiety is not going to go away. You'll have a different relationship with the thoughts that tell you things are terrible or terrible things are about to happen.

[00:27:44] It's not about reducing symptoms. It's about giving you a different perspective on the nature of thoughts and feelings so that you're not focused so much on them and you're focused more on doing the stuff that matters. And in the everyday, it's worth reminding everybody that [00:28:00] practicing this doesn't.

[00:28:01] Remove all the thoughts from your mind. It doesn't give you control over the thoughts in your mind. It doesn't make life a straight line from A to B, but it enables you to stop trying to control what's in your head and to follow that path, even if it does sort of deviate from the straight line because you know, that's the direction that's really important to you.

[00:28:24] So life in the world doesn't get easier, but you're more able to deal with the stuff it throws at you and not stop yourself from taking that first step. And I think this is a really important point to make because next time we're going to be talking about present moment awareness or being mindful in the moment.

[00:28:43] And people often mistake that for having nothing in their mind, you know, having no, no thoughts, having no worries. But actually when we're practicing these skills, we're saying, yeah, that's a, that's a worrisome thought and I'm going to do that thing.

[00:28:59] Ross: Yeah, the and is so important.

[00:29:02] Richard: So I want to underline maybe at this point that when we talk about this inflexibility, we've all got different starting points. All of us are work in progress. It's not a label to adopt as well. You know, no more than I would say, I am psychologically flexible. I wouldn't say I am inflexible either, because context plays a role.

[00:29:21] Different contexts will be more difficult, will be easier. And each of us, as you're listening to this, you'll think I'm pretty good at that. I've never even thought of that, and I know that that's really difficult for me. So view these as separate qualities rather than label yourself as good or bad at psychological flexibility, because I guarantee it's not the case.

[00:29:44] Each of us will have some good existing strengths we can, we can bounce off, and there will be other aspects of this that we each find tricky, you know. Again, from the self disclosure point of view, I can find it really quite difficult sometimes [00:30:00] to step back from thoughts that are particularly awful. You know, it takes real effort to just not engage with them and to bring myself back to the present moment and carry on with what I was doing.

[00:30:14] the nature of those thoughts, things like comparisons, comparing me to someone else. They are very attractive, they're very engaging, they're sticky. That's still difficult. But I would say now in 2024, at least now I know how to deal with those and they don't get me stuck and they don't prevent me from doing the thing anyway at some point.

[00:30:37] Ross: Yeah, I, I, I agree that when you're tangled up with a really juicy thought that is really unhelpful, in a way it can feel kind of quite familiar for

[00:30:50] Richard: Yep.

[00:30:51] Ross: being tangled up with that and almost like this is just how it is. But knowing I've got those skills to just press pause and just notice where I am tangled up with this thought.

[00:31:05] Notice what my mind's up to and as you say knowing that my mind is just doing what it was evolved to do to keep me safe and then choosing what to do next. Thinking how do I want to be in this moment.

[00:31:19] Richard: We always have a choice.

[00:31:20] Ross: Yeah, that's a, that's a tricky one to,

[00:31:23] Richard: It really is.

[00:31:24] Ross: to kind of conceptualize and grasp and convey sometimes in training. Hmm.

[00:31:32] Richard: It doesn't mean they're all helpful or positive, but we have options and reminding people that in any context you have options for what you do and how you respond to what's going on rather than automatically doing something, something very habitual or automatically avoiding something.

[00:31:50] because of how you think about it. We always have options as to our direction of travel, as to how we engage with other people, and how we deal with the stuff that comes our way. The bad news, [00:32:00] the ambiguity, the loss, the disappointment, or even, you know, the, the, the good news. How many times have I received good news, enjoyed it for a moment, and then thought, oh no, but how many ways could this go wrong?

[00:32:15] Ross: Or they don't really mean it.

[00:32:19] Richard: They're just being nice. They're

[00:32:20] just

[00:32:20] being nice.

[00:32:21] Ross: they've given me that marking on my annual appraisal but, but deep down they don't really mean that. I know what they mean. We're mind reading.

[00:32:31] Richard: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So all of these, these ways that our mind can get in the way of us being, I would boil it down to being the kind of person you want to be. Ideally, how would you like to be in the world? Practicing these skills allows you to do more of that more often. doesn't create saints, it doesn't create perfect people, but it enables you, like any skill, if you practice it, to do more of it.

[00:32:56] And that's, that's our hope for this, that more people will know about it, understand it, put it into practice, and then reap the benefits of that over time. So what can you expect from us as we go through this? one of the things that we really want to do is give you as many opportunities as possible to learn about this. So in addition, I mean, it's the nature of podcasts and videos. You can rewind, you can revisit bits of it, but we're also going to share some resources online and we'll signpost those in the notes that accompany each one of these episodes.

[00:33:29] If you're interested, you can go on and do that. Read a little bit more or watch or listen, whatever it might be. But really, if you took away what we're talking about in each episode and put that into practice, it's going to give you a real boost. It's a great, great starting point. But I know from my own experience as a practitioner, there are some people who just want to know a little bit more to understand a little bit more or have more context before they take a leap of faith.

[00:33:56] So we want to provide that stuff. We'll signpost it at the [00:34:00] end of every episode and we'll, um, we will have an online page where all of this is going to sit so you can keep coming back to that same page. I don't know about you, but as a real podcast listener, it frustrates me when I find it difficult to find the things people are talking about when they mention it, if I'm interested in it and it's not easy to find.

[00:34:18] So we're going to keep pointing it back to the same page and you'll be able to find that at worklifestyle. com slash. Psychological flexibility. That's the page that accompanies this series. Everything we reference, we're going to put there. And hopefully that will remove some of the friction of, they talked about this thing, but I don't know where to find more.

[00:34:36] Hopefully that's helpful.

[00:34:38] Ross: Beautiful. So, Richard, it feels like we've set sail.

[00:34:42] Richard: It's exciting.

[00:34:44] Ross: It's daunting.

[00:34:46] Richard: That's your mind giving you ideas and thoughts about the future. It is exciting. We've got a lot to cover, and we have a plan. That's another thing we should mention. Listeners, we have a plan for this, and we're going to stick to it. But we have a framework we're going to work through, and hopefully you'll see a rhythm to what we're doing, and know kind of what to expect from each one of these episodes.

[00:35:08] I'll close with a repeated call to hear from you. Let us know what you think. Let us know how it's working for you. Let us know what your questions are. one of the easiest ways to get in touch with us is via email. and you have, you have choices here. It doesn't matter who you email. We'll look at the emails together.

[00:35:26] Uh, but if you're a listener to people soup, you can email, uh, Ross Ross dot people soup at gmail. com. Have I got that right?

[00:35:35] and if you want to email me, you can just, uh, get in touch podcast at worklifepsych. com. But either way, it doesn't matter. We want to hear from you. And of course, if you're just watching this on YouTube, you can leave a comment below and we'll, we'll add that to a future episode and we'll cover it in depth.

[00:35:53] Then we really love hearing from our listeners in general. And if it's, uh, Something we can do to bring more [00:36:00] clarity to something we've mentioned, then that's super important. And, uh, and we will do that. So Ross, we've set sail. What, what are we going to do on our next episode?

[00:36:09] Ross: Next episode, we're going to be going into our first skill, the first skill from Act, and we're going to be talking about present moment awareness, what it is and what it isn't, and how that mind wandering can really Be really unhelpful for us at times and really stop us being the person we'd really like to be.

[00:36:31] Richard: So we've been listening to this episode. You've realized I didn't hear what they said and you've had to go back. That's a really good example of the mental time travel. Your mind is taking you to your next meal. It's taking you to your homework. It's taking you to your inbox. It's taking you away from this present moment where you're listening to someone explain something.

[00:36:52] Um, and so next time we'll, we'll look at that. And really importantly, the small things we can do to develop this muscle, this, this present. moment awareness muscle. And from our perspective, the other skills flow from that. You know, it's very hard to do these other things if we're not aware of the moment that we're in.

[00:37:12] So, um, I look forward to, to introducing that, and, uh, talking about the skills in a little bit more depth. And I look forward to hearing from you all with your thoughts on, um, what we've done so far.

[00:37:25] Ross: Yeah, thanks for your curiosity and being prepared to experiment and explore, Richard. And everyone for listening.

[00:37:33] Richard: We'll see you next time.

[00:37:35] Ross: Bye for now.

[00:37:36] Richard: Oh, I lost you there.

[00:37:39] Oh, you're back. There we go.

[00:37:41] Ross: Where did I go? Oh, it says network is struggling. Oh, fuck.

[00:37:45] I'll just have a look at my network. Are you struggling, pet?

[00:37:48] Richard: Give it a kick.

[00:37:50] Ross: You alright, love? Looks alright. I don't know what I'm looking [00:38:00] at, but the lights are all on.

[00:38:02] Richard: Yeah, you're really pixelated for some reason.

[00:38:04] Ross: Oh, it's because I'm in police protection.