1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,480 Welcome to the very first episode of The Boardroom. This is the podcast where we talk about 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:09,919 all the kind of scary, weird bits about leadership conversations that happen at work that usually 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:15,520 happen behind closed doors. The reason I have decided to start this podcast is just because I 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:22,320 in. Whether it was work situation, social situations, and career development situations for 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:27,080 the longest time just always felt like an outsider. You know, when you have to have those 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,000 like small talk, niceties, kind of conversations within your career, whether it's when you're 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:36,000 giving feedback or, you know, you feel like you need to soften it up, give people a shit sandwich, 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:42,400 whatever. I just always felt this sense of like, oh my God, this should not be me. I should not be in 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,440 this position. I don't feel old enough. I don't feel experienced enough. How do I run away? Like 10 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,440 how do I get out of it? But as I moved through the world of leadership, I just very quickly became 11 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:57,040 aware that everyone and I mean literally everyone, is winging it. Like every single person you know 12 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,709 is winging their way through work. And that's not to say they're bad at it. I'm not taking away the 13 00:01:00,709 --> 00:01:05,149 fact that a lot of them have brilliant experience, maybe have degrees or whatever. It's just that 14 00:01:05,150 --> 00:01:11,069 we're all winging it. And I think I found my way into a lot of those boardroom meeting rooms when 15 00:01:11,069 --> 00:01:16,750 I was quite young, like 27, 28 years old. I found my way into those boardrooms with people who were 16 00:01:16,750 --> 00:01:22,230 decades and decades my senior and had this very sharp sort of realisation that everyone is 17 00:01:22,230 --> 00:01:26,509 winging it, and I want to just open up some of those boardroom conversations. So we're going to 18 00:01:26,510 --> 00:01:31,389 talk about literally everything from career, work, personal life. Like nothing is off limits in this. 19 00:01:31,389 --> 00:01:36,349 I am currently in a dark room with just our producer and with t shirt. And so, um, you know, it 20 00:01:36,349 --> 00:01:40,069 feels like we're kind of alone, and I do not know if anyone's ever going to listen to this, so I'm 21 00:01:40,069 --> 00:01:44,029 going to be very honest, probably going to say far too much. But, you know, another reason for me 22 00:01:44,069 --> 00:01:49,990 starting this podcast was I am very used to creating things for social media. So 23 00:01:49,990 --> 00:01:56,950 60s, 90s, short snippets, carousels, whatever it may be, and breaking down very complex 24 00:01:56,950 --> 00:02:01,899 topics into a super simplified format for you guys to all go and use, and I know that's helpful. 25 00:02:01,940 --> 00:02:07,419 However, there is so much nuance to the world of leadership, to the world of careers development 26 00:02:07,419 --> 00:02:12,659 and our lives that we need to just go deeper on. And so this is an opportunity for me to just go a 27 00:02:12,660 --> 00:02:16,899 bit deeper with you guys, go a bit deeper. I'm kind of seeing this as like therapy. I used to go to 28 00:02:16,899 --> 00:02:21,619 therapy and I stopped recently, so I'm like, maybe this is going to be another opportunity for me to 29 00:02:21,660 --> 00:02:26,099 do therapy with myself, with you. One of the kind of sparks as well. The catalyst for me starting 30 00:02:26,100 --> 00:02:30,979 this podcast was also the fact that I started to listen to a lot of personal development, whether 31 00:02:30,979 --> 00:02:36,259 it's audiobooks, podcasts, media, literature out there. I listened when I tell you a lot, probably 32 00:02:36,259 --> 00:02:41,820 over an hour every single day. I am just learning and ingesting information, and something I've 33 00:02:41,820 --> 00:02:47,939 started to realise more and more recently is all of our favourite podcasts are very much scripted. 34 00:02:47,979 --> 00:02:52,179 They are, I'm sorry to say it. Like very much ChatGPT script and people are reading off a 35 00:02:52,179 --> 00:02:57,300 teleprompter and I started to become very aware of that. And I think AI like I'm not anti AI 36 00:02:57,369 --> 00:03:01,689 necessarily you know we use it in the business. We use it to like drive a lot of automation and 37 00:03:01,689 --> 00:03:07,369 productivity. But something that I am really against AI infecting let's say is the creative 38 00:03:07,369 --> 00:03:13,329 world. I think the creative world, the world of art and literature and production and the media 39 00:03:13,369 --> 00:03:19,129 should be protected as much as possible. Like this for me, is an outlet. It's creative. It's something 40 00:03:19,130 --> 00:03:25,609 that I just need. I need to hear people's raw, unfiltered, honest, unedited thoughts. So that is 41 00:03:25,609 --> 00:03:29,850 exactly this. There is no script. I have a piece of paper in front of me with like six bullet points 42 00:03:29,850 --> 00:03:34,929 on of notes that I want to cover, but other than that, everything is completely unscripted, so it 43 00:03:34,929 --> 00:03:38,689 might even feel weird to you to hear something that's unscripted because you may be so used to 44 00:03:38,729 --> 00:03:43,969 hearing the script of things now. So anyway, that's where we are. The boardroom. Today's topic I was 45 00:03:43,969 --> 00:03:49,770 thinking really hard. Like, what's the best topic to begin this podcast with? Because there is so 46 00:03:49,770 --> 00:03:54,889 much we could talk about and I have so much data on managers, leaders at work on career development. 47 00:03:54,929 --> 00:03:59,960 Okay. And the reason I have this data is because every few weeks or so, you'll see me post on my 48 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:04,440 Instagram story saying, what is everyone struggling with the most in their leadership role 49 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:09,760 right now? And every time we get hundreds and hundreds of responses, and every time we get those 50 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:16,200 responses, we put that into a spreadsheet. So I now have literally thousands and thousands of data 51 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:21,680 points, all anonymous, of course, of what managers are struggling with the most in a leadership role. 52 00:04:21,959 --> 00:04:26,200 We can then, of course, analyse all that data and pull out like the biggest, most important 53 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,440 struggles. I also get it from things just like conversations I have with people. I always make 54 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:35,359 notes on my blog in the making, which a lot of you guys will be subscribed to. And in the making, I 55 00:04:35,359 --> 00:04:38,719 ask people when they join us for the first time, what is one thing you struggle with the most 56 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,639 right now? And they tell us in paragraphs and paragraphs of detail what it is that they're 57 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,800 struggling with. And so if anyone knows a manager at work struggles more than anyone else on the 58 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,999 planet, I promise it is me. And so it's just to unearth a lot of those, because something I want 59 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:57,429 this podcast to be is almost like a precious realisation for you all that you really are not 60 00:04:57,429 --> 00:05:03,469 alone because I think hearing other people's struggles, obviously I don't like it, but it really 61 00:05:03,470 --> 00:05:08,029 helps me to feel less alone. And I think a lot of the struggles and issues that I had back in the 62 00:05:08,030 --> 00:05:12,309 day when I was managing, you know, managing five different teams, whether it was on a harried shop 63 00:05:12,309 --> 00:05:16,989 floor or whether it was in Big Tech, I thought I was alone. I thought I was the only person on 64 00:05:16,989 --> 00:05:21,829 planet Earth that had these issues. Turns out I wasn't. All of us had the same issues. So the 65 00:05:21,829 --> 00:05:27,509 problem that comes up time and time and time and time and time again for all of us is what do I do 66 00:05:27,510 --> 00:05:33,309 when I'm managing friends? So that could be you joined a business, you are part of a team, and then 67 00:05:33,310 --> 00:05:37,070 you got promoted and you kind of made those friendship bonds with the people on the team. It 68 00:05:37,070 --> 00:05:40,630 could be that you've been hired in as a manager, but you've just got really close to some people 69 00:05:40,670 --> 00:05:45,710 because maybe they're similar to you or you like them or whatever. It could just be that you've 70 00:05:45,710 --> 00:05:49,549 hired friends, you know, that happened to me as well. I hired friends into my business, whether 71 00:05:49,549 --> 00:05:53,939 it's now or like in the old business that I used to work in, I'd hired friends because I knew they 72 00:05:53,939 --> 00:05:58,779 were great at what they did, and they were there and looking for a job. So all of us, at some point 73 00:05:58,780 --> 00:06:04,219 in our career, find ourselves in this situation where we are managing a friend at work. So in this 74 00:06:04,220 --> 00:06:08,459 episode, we're going to go through what that can look like, the struggles that that can bring up. 75 00:06:08,459 --> 00:06:12,700 We've also got an in the making reader that's messaged in with a dilemma about her exact 76 00:06:12,700 --> 00:06:16,459 scenario, about managing her friends and some of the awkwardness around that. So we're going to dig 77 00:06:16,620 --> 00:06:22,099 into all of that today. The first thing I want to tell you is it is okay to be friends with people 78 00:06:22,099 --> 00:06:27,539 at work. I think for a very long time, the corporate world in particular has told us set 79 00:06:27,579 --> 00:06:31,779 fierce boundaries, don't make friends, don't cross any barriers with people at work like you can't 80 00:06:31,779 --> 00:06:38,579 do that. And I'm here to tell you that is bullshit, because ultimately we're human beings. We are 81 00:06:38,579 --> 00:06:42,579 going to make bonds with the people that we spent. We spend more time with these people than our 82 00:06:42,579 --> 00:06:47,578 family, right? Like we spend more time with people at work than we do. Are our actual friends outside 83 00:06:47,579 --> 00:06:52,339 of work? If a lot of us, if we're going into an office every day, you're around these people all 84 00:06:52,339 --> 00:06:57,290 the time, every single day. It would be impossible and kind of like inhumane to not be friends with 85 00:06:57,290 --> 00:07:02,689 them. So that's the first point, is it is okay to be friends with people. That being said, we just 86 00:07:02,689 --> 00:07:08,529 have to be aware of a few different things that can come into play. First of all, bias. Now there is 87 00:07:08,529 --> 00:07:13,729 1,000,001 different biases out there, but you have to be very, very careful of favouritism. So if 88 00:07:13,729 --> 00:07:16,889 there is someone, maybe you've made friends with them because they're very similar to you. That's 89 00:07:16,890 --> 00:07:20,609 just called similarity bias. You've made friends with someone, they're similar to you. Maybe they 90 00:07:20,609 --> 00:07:25,249 have the same interests as you and that's okay. But what you then can't do is favourite them 91 00:07:25,249 --> 00:07:29,729 because favouritism can go a really long way. It can start small with just things like, you know, 92 00:07:29,769 --> 00:07:34,369 giving people more airtime on a meeting or not giving people small bits of work to do because 93 00:07:34,369 --> 00:07:38,088 you know that they're overwhelmed. Maybe. So you give it to someone else, even though that other 94 00:07:38,089 --> 00:07:42,568 person is overwhelmed, and it can start small with lots of things like that, but it can very quickly 95 00:07:42,569 --> 00:07:48,648 develop into toxicity, into other people feeling as though, you know, they see it, like they feel 96 00:07:48,649 --> 00:07:53,999 that favouritism, they feel that bias. They may leave. Or I would say even worse, you end up giving 97 00:07:53,999 --> 00:07:58,519 those people that you like and favour. The promotions, the pay rises, you put them up for 98 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:04,359 opportunities. I remember a situation and this was back in like 2018, whereby the business I was 99 00:08:04,359 --> 00:08:08,319 working in, we were going to a conference and we had the opportunity for someone to stand on stage 100 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:13,399 and do a speaking slot, and quite a few members of the team, like, wanted the opportunity and the bias 101 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:19,279 inside me. I remember feeling it almost physically wanted to give it to my friend, aka the person 102 00:08:19,279 --> 00:08:22,679 that I knew the closest. The person who I knew wanted this just because I'd had the 103 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:27,600 conversations with them about it. Um, but I really had to check myself and be like, does this person 104 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:32,199 actually, like, have they earn it? They deserve it the most. Are they the most qualified or do what 105 00:08:32,239 --> 00:08:36,479 do I need to kind of really take a look and step outside and go, no, there's other people who have 106 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,559 worked harder for this and therefore deserve it. And if you just really make sure that you have 107 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:47,439 that like really strict bias stopper over the decisions that you're making, that goes a really, 108 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,189 really long way. Now I'm going to read out to you the person's dilemma who's messaged in because I 109 00:08:51,190 --> 00:08:56,109 think a lot of us will resonate with this. So this has been messaged in by someone on Substack. I got 110 00:08:56,109 --> 00:09:01,070 promoted to team lead about eight months ago. The team I now manage is the same team that I came up 111 00:09:01,070 --> 00:09:05,789 through, including my closest work friend. We'll call her Sophie. We used to go out for lunch every 112 00:09:05,830 --> 00:09:10,789 day, moan about the same people and cover for each other when things got hard. But since the 113 00:09:10,789 --> 00:09:16,189 promotion, she's been really off with me. Not necessarily horrible, just really distant. But what 114 00:09:16,190 --> 00:09:21,149 I wasn't expecting is how much I feel like I was doing something wrong every time I had to lead 115 00:09:21,150 --> 00:09:26,349 her. Last month, I had to give her feedback in a 1 to 1 about missing a deadline, and it's something 116 00:09:26,349 --> 00:09:30,908 I honestly wanted to let slide, but I had the conversation. I delivered it professionally, but 117 00:09:30,909 --> 00:09:35,189 she didn't take it very well. And the bit that's really messing with my head is this I know things 118 00:09:35,190 --> 00:09:41,069 about her life that me, her new manager, probably shouldn't know. I know why she's distracted. I know 119 00:09:41,070 --> 00:09:45,509 why she's a little off. I know what she's got going on at home. And I'm sat there in this 1 to 1, 120 00:09:45,509 --> 00:09:49,699 using my manager voice to deliver this difficult conversation, to deliver this difficult feedback. 121 00:09:49,699 --> 00:09:55,299 And all I can think is I know you and this is so strange. Nobody told me the promotion would feel 122 00:09:55,299 --> 00:10:01,539 like a loss of a friend as well as a win. Is this normal? And did I just lose my best work friend in 123 00:10:01,539 --> 00:10:06,499 the process of becoming her boss? So much to unpack here. I think the first one is just let's 124 00:10:06,499 --> 00:10:10,619 talk about this. The fact that because I don't think this is just managing friends at work, I 125 00:10:10,620 --> 00:10:15,299 think this is managing anyone. When, you know, people have got things going on at home, what do 126 00:10:15,299 --> 00:10:20,140 you do? Because a lot of us in those moments shy away from then giving difficult conversations. So 127 00:10:20,140 --> 00:10:26,299 let's talk about that one first. If, for example, you ask people, is everything okay? And they offer 128 00:10:26,300 --> 00:10:32,099 up information about things at home that aren't good? Of course, in those moments we want to apply 129 00:10:32,099 --> 00:10:36,139 as much empathy as we possibly can. So I usually will if people have got something really 130 00:10:36,140 --> 00:10:41,339 difficult going on at home, I try not to get too involved with that thing. So what I mean by that 131 00:10:41,340 --> 00:10:47,340 is a lot of managers tend to cross the boundary a little bit between helping someone professionally 132 00:10:47,340 --> 00:10:51,689 and in work and supporting them with their home life. Now there is ways that we can help and get 133 00:10:51,689 --> 00:10:56,689 involved, but there has to be a boundary. So, for example, I remember there was a time back in the 134 00:10:56,690 --> 00:11:00,249 day when I was working in an old business. We had a member of the team who had just been diagnosed 135 00:11:00,250 --> 00:11:04,890 with depression. Okay, so really serious stuff, really difficult stuff to help manage someone 136 00:11:04,890 --> 00:11:11,048 through, but more difficult for him. And in the moment when he told me the first thing that I did 137 00:11:11,049 --> 00:11:14,968 and this was the biggest mistake, this was one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made. The first 138 00:11:14,969 --> 00:11:20,249 thing I did was try to fix it. Now, as you know, you you cannot fix depression, especially as an 139 00:11:20,250 --> 00:11:24,690 outsider like depression. The only way we can get through it is just supporting someone and then 140 00:11:24,690 --> 00:11:30,209 that person kind of working through it themselves, especially not a manager. What a manager can do in 141 00:11:30,249 --> 00:11:34,729 that situation is give them as much space as they need to come through it to come out the other 142 00:11:34,729 --> 00:11:39,609 side of it. Give them some compassionate leave. Ask. Just ask questions. You know, I think something I 143 00:11:39,610 --> 00:11:43,769 should have done in that moment is set regular sessions with that person to say, like, look, let's 144 00:11:43,770 --> 00:11:48,799 have a session every week on a Friday at the end of the week and see how work could positively 145 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,880 impact you gain through this, as opposed to negatively impact, because that's ultimately what 146 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:58,159 we want to do. We don't want work to be a reason as to why that really difficult mental health 147 00:11:58,159 --> 00:12:02,560 issue could be getting worse for them. So I want to make sure that work is helping. If coming into 148 00:12:02,599 --> 00:12:06,839 work is the thing that's helping them, then let's continue to like let that blossom. The the mistake 149 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:11,559 that I made was trying to jump in and fix it. And so something that I did was offered to pay for 150 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,159 his therapy and was trying to get him to go to therapy was like pushing him, pushing this therapy 151 00:12:16,159 --> 00:12:20,279 on him. And I knew just a month later when it turned out that he hadn't been going to these 152 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:25,119 therapy sessions, I learned the lesson that you actually can't fix problems like that for people. 153 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:30,639 And so there just has to be this line between like empathy, giving people the space they need to 154 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:36,400 get better, to flourish, to grow compassionate leave, compassion, empathy. But that also has to be 155 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,999 a line. And that line, I think, sits at the point where you're no longer helping them. So, for 156 00:12:41,999 --> 00:12:48,670 example, you know, if my empathy goes too far. The person may not hear the thing that they need to 157 00:12:48,670 --> 00:12:53,429 hear in order to grow. So, for example, a month later, once I'd been notified about his depression, 158 00:12:53,430 --> 00:12:57,309 if a whole month had passed and his work was really going downhill, he was really struggling 159 00:12:57,310 --> 00:13:01,549 and I thought, I'm just going to ignore it. I'm not going to say anything. I'm just going to leave him 160 00:13:01,549 --> 00:13:04,669 to it because I know that he's struggling. I know he's got depression and I don't want to make it 161 00:13:04,670 --> 00:13:10,589 harder. I don't actually think that that helps in any way. I think having the conversation as 162 00:13:10,590 --> 00:13:15,389 awkward and difficult as it may be to just say, look, I know you're struggling. I want to help you 163 00:13:15,390 --> 00:13:20,468 through this. I want to help give you some space. But work is really suffering. Like, how can we work 164 00:13:20,469 --> 00:13:25,150 together to get this better? What do you need from us? What do you need from your work to help you 165 00:13:25,150 --> 00:13:29,349 get this better? What do you need from your work to help you get through this? I guess to go back 166 00:13:29,349 --> 00:13:33,429 to the point, which is, you know, if you know someone's got something going on at home, like how 167 00:13:33,430 --> 00:13:37,989 do you help them through it? I think there has to be a point where we give them empathy. We 168 00:13:37,989 --> 00:13:42,750 understand, we give them space, we give them care. There has to be a point where, as a manager, you 169 00:13:42,750 --> 00:13:47,499 recognise that actually the most important thing you can do to help them is still to have the 170 00:13:47,499 --> 00:13:52,899 conversation, is still to show them where their work might be missing, but do it in a way that 171 00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:56,699 allows them to see that you're making space for their mistakes and for their growth, and for their 172 00:13:56,700 --> 00:14:02,019 learning. Where we really get into difficulty with friendship versus manager relationships is 173 00:14:02,020 --> 00:14:06,979 something you have to know about. Friendship is it's equal. It should be equal. A friendship should 174 00:14:06,979 --> 00:14:12,139 be both people putting in the same amount of effort to nourish a relationship. A manager 175 00:14:12,140 --> 00:14:18,259 employee, a manager team member relationship is not equal. There is already a power imbalance. You 176 00:14:18,260 --> 00:14:23,658 know, there is already this understanding that as the manager, you have a set of responsibilities 177 00:14:23,659 --> 00:14:27,099 that you have to help them with, and the employee has a set of responsibilities that you help them 178 00:14:27,099 --> 00:14:31,979 with. It's not an equal relationship. You already start off on an equal footing because you're paid 179 00:14:31,979 --> 00:14:35,620 differently. You may have more experience than them. You're coaching them, you're guiding them, 180 00:14:35,620 --> 00:14:42,140 you're mentoring them. And so there has to be this clear distinction between friendship and manager 181 00:14:42,140 --> 00:14:46,330 employee relationship. If you are in a situation right now whereby you have someone in the team 182 00:14:46,330 --> 00:14:51,049 who was once your friend and you're unsure like how to manage them, something I think is really 183 00:14:51,049 --> 00:14:56,409 powerful is having what I call a relationship reset. So have a point in time and it could be the 184 00:14:56,410 --> 00:15:02,289 end of this week. It could be the end of next week where you go after this day we are resetting this 185 00:15:02,290 --> 00:15:07,649 relationship, and all that relationship reset can look like is having a really in-depth 186 00:15:07,650 --> 00:15:12,729 conversation with them about how your roles and responsibilities have changed, and also about how 187 00:15:13,009 --> 00:15:18,009 you now need to show up and the boundaries that you need to set. And, you know, try to get some of 188 00:15:18,049 --> 00:15:22,488 that awkwardness out in the open explaining, I'm going to have to give you feedback. I'm going to 189 00:15:22,489 --> 00:15:28,009 have to hold you accountable. But please know that when I do that, it's all with the intention of you 190 00:15:28,010 --> 00:15:32,449 growing. It's all with the intention of I want us to get better together. You know, I've been 191 00:15:32,449 --> 00:15:36,730 promoted and I'm really proud of it, but I feel as though I'm shrinking a little bit because I'm 192 00:15:36,730 --> 00:15:41,839 acting awkwardly around you. And it may be something that I'm just taking on. You know, it 193 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:47,760 could. And this is the truth. It could be something, as a manager that we have internalised, and the 194 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,999 other person may not even feel it. That other person actually may really respect you, really 195 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:57,879 look up to you, be very ready and willing to take on your mentorship, guidance and coaching. And 196 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:03,199 because we are human, we have internalised this idea that they don't respect me. You know, they 197 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:08,159 don't want to listen to me. It's awkward. And so just by having that reset conversation can really 198 00:16:08,159 --> 00:16:12,679 help to yeah, I guess, like reset that relationship and really take it from a friend friend 199 00:16:12,679 --> 00:16:17,879 relationship to a manager employee relationship a lot of the time as well, when you have those 200 00:16:17,879 --> 00:16:21,399 conversations with people. I've had them a few times throughout my career. Now you will be 201 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,679 shocked by the other person's response because this person was your friend for a reason. This 202 00:16:25,679 --> 00:16:29,959 person was your friend because you saw something great in them. You had a sense of like love and 203 00:16:29,959 --> 00:16:34,919 care for them in some way. And therefore, just by you becoming a manager doesn't undo that. It 204 00:16:34,919 --> 00:16:38,759 doesn't. They're not a bad person. They're not against you. They're not competing with you. It's 205 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:44,749 just that the dynamic has shifted. It really has. And I guess as human beings on planet Earth, we 206 00:16:44,750 --> 00:16:48,549 just have to recognise that and have the conversation with them. Something really important 207 00:16:48,549 --> 00:16:54,309 we have to talk about here, which is that there is a huge difference between being liked and being 208 00:16:54,309 --> 00:17:00,988 respected. And when we aim to be friends with people too much, it's often because we are chasing 209 00:17:00,989 --> 00:17:06,310 that need to be liked. When we want people to be our friend, to see us as a friend. We're all pally, 210 00:17:06,310 --> 00:17:11,229 friendly, blah blah blah. It's because we really want that, you know, approval, people pleasing us 211 00:17:11,269 --> 00:17:17,188 off other people. Whereas when we shift to respect and by the way, most of the time you can't have 212 00:17:17,229 --> 00:17:23,989 both. You either get the approval or you get the respect. When we shift a respect, it often means 213 00:17:23,990 --> 00:17:28,430 sometimes losing friends, like we always have that friend who is a little bit too honest. And 214 00:17:28,430 --> 00:17:32,110 sometimes in the moment when they're too honest with us, we're a bit pissed off with them. Like we 215 00:17:32,110 --> 00:17:37,229 don't necessarily like them in that moment. It may hurt. However, I guarantee that friend is the one 216 00:17:37,230 --> 00:17:41,859 that you respect the most because you know where you stand with them. They never lie to you. They're 217 00:17:41,859 --> 00:17:48,140 just honest with you. And in a workplace relationship. Be the person who tells people if 218 00:17:48,140 --> 00:17:52,179 they have something in their teeth, like be the person who gives the feedback when it's small, 219 00:17:52,180 --> 00:17:56,379 when it's a small, solvable thing in the moment. No, it's not going to win you the approval from 220 00:17:56,379 --> 00:18:00,859 people because it can feel a bit awkward, like it hurts a little bit. Especially if you tell someone 221 00:18:00,859 --> 00:18:05,020 they've got something in their teeth. Even for five seconds, they feel a bit embarrassed. It feels 222 00:18:05,020 --> 00:18:11,219 a bit awkward, but 10s later it's solved. We move on and that person's very grateful that you told 223 00:18:11,219 --> 00:18:14,818 them. And quite often I've been in this situation so many times. You look around the table and go, 224 00:18:14,859 --> 00:18:20,020 why did no one else tell me? Now I'm suspicious of other people in this room because why did none of 225 00:18:20,020 --> 00:18:23,979 you tell me? And this person has, and they've put themselves in this awkward position to go and 226 00:18:23,979 --> 00:18:28,899 tell me. That's what you have to remember when it comes to these friendships. To be honest, any 227 00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:33,900 dynamic in leadership, um, but specifically these friendship relationships, because not trying to be 228 00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:38,769 liked anymore, when we move into a leadership role, we're not there to make friends ultimately. But we 229 00:18:38,769 --> 00:18:45,050 are there to grow. Help people. Coach people. Move people through. And in order to do that, we have to 230 00:18:45,089 --> 00:18:50,249 sacrifice this idea of being liked to make sure that we can build the respect with others. Now, I 231 00:18:50,250 --> 00:18:54,169 want to end this episode by talking about the best manager that I've ever had. I think it's 232 00:18:54,170 --> 00:18:59,129 something we have to really appreciate here, guys, is that leadership at any level can be a really 233 00:18:59,129 --> 00:19:04,249 lonely place. So if you're a business owner like I am, we know it can be lonely because it's you that 234 00:19:04,249 --> 00:19:08,609 all the decisions fall on. It's a very highest last decision maker. Quite often you can feel as 235 00:19:08,609 --> 00:19:12,968 though you can't build those bonds with your team. So it can feel lonely if you're a middle manager 236 00:19:12,969 --> 00:19:17,569 or in a senior leadership position. I think that's one of the hardest positions to be in, is to be in 237 00:19:17,569 --> 00:19:22,369 the middle, because you have this sense of like you're given things from above that you have to 238 00:19:22,409 --> 00:19:27,009 act on. And quite often we don't dictate what those things are. So we get given, you know, 239 00:19:27,050 --> 00:19:33,489 strategy changes, metrics changes, um, initiative, new initiatives that we have to now send through 240 00:19:33,489 --> 00:19:37,640 to our team. And we have had no say in it. Sometimes we don't even agree with them and that 241 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,959 can be a really hard dynamic to manage. But then we of course have the other side of the coin, 242 00:19:41,959 --> 00:19:46,519 which is like we have our team then pushing back, maybe not taking accountability, not pushing hard 243 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:52,839 enough, and we find ourselves very firmly in the middle. Um, and sometimes we flip either way. Like 244 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,078 sometimes we agree with the SLT, we just wish our team would suck it up and do it. Sometimes it's a 245 00:19:57,079 --> 00:20:01,399 complete other way where we really respect and understand exactly why our team is frustrated 246 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,438 with something, but we ultimately can't do anything about it. We'll talk about change in 247 00:20:05,439 --> 00:20:09,079 another episode because I think managing through change is really important. But I guess what I 248 00:20:09,079 --> 00:20:15,719 want to leave you with here is the fact that loneliness in leadership is huge. And like I said, 249 00:20:15,719 --> 00:20:19,800 whether you're a business owner, you're a middle manager, you're in the SLT leader. Loneliness in 250 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:26,520 leadership is really tough, but what you have to find is you can no longer be the person who is 251 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,680 going out to lunch with people at work, gossiping, spreading rumours, sharing lies, getting involved 252 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,550 in the workplace drama, the workplace politics. Because yet that's what most managers do. I'm not 253 00:20:36,550 --> 00:20:40,270 gonna lie. That's what most middle managers are doing all the time. But that will forever keep you 254 00:20:40,270 --> 00:20:45,228 in this zone of manager. It will never move you into the leader, where people want to follow you 255 00:20:45,229 --> 00:20:52,109 and want to like back you and feel supported by you and feel respected. You have to try really 256 00:20:52,110 --> 00:20:58,469 hard to kind of be okay with a bit of sense of loneliness at work, and find those relationships 257 00:20:58,469 --> 00:21:02,909 in other people, like find a really solid group of friends outside of work, even just one friend. I 258 00:21:02,910 --> 00:21:08,150 think just having one close friend is more than enough. Having a really supportive partner like 259 00:21:08,150 --> 00:21:11,509 that's so important. Guys. When you start to move up through the ranks of these leadership roles, 260 00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:16,549 you need someone at home who is in your corner because your days are going to be hard. They're 261 00:21:16,550 --> 00:21:21,670 going to be busy. You're going to have 1000, 20,000, 30,000 decisions to make. I think the stats are 262 00:21:22,229 --> 00:21:28,749 the average person makes 35,000 decisions every single day. For a leader at work, that's three X's. 263 00:21:28,749 --> 00:21:34,149 So almost. Yeah, over 100,000 decisions every single day. If you're then having to come home and 264 00:21:34,150 --> 00:21:39,139 make decisions on things like you know what to have for dinner and your partners disagreeing 265 00:21:39,139 --> 00:21:43,740 with you. And it turns into an argument because you're both like feeling the sense of raw and in 266 00:21:43,780 --> 00:21:48,338 like sort of frustration with one another. And then that blows up. It's going to start to feel 267 00:21:48,339 --> 00:21:52,859 lonelier and lonelier. And so just make sure that you have someone at home and not to get deep here 268 00:21:52,859 --> 00:21:58,179 because I appreciate, you know, we're going into relationships now, but you really need that 269 00:21:58,180 --> 00:22:04,259 support from the network that isn't inside work because it does get lonely. It gets hard having 270 00:22:04,260 --> 00:22:08,379 difficult conversations with people at work, holding people accountable to hitting crazy 271 00:22:08,380 --> 00:22:13,219 targets is not a normal thing for people to be doing. It's not normal for our nervous system. Like 272 00:22:13,259 --> 00:22:18,180 this has only really come about in the last sort of 100 years, I guess, since the Post-Industrial 273 00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:23,339 Revolution, sort of bureaucratic organisational hierarchy kind of thing. That was many, many, many 274 00:22:23,339 --> 00:22:29,020 big words. But since then, only in the last sort of 100, 150 years of human beings started to put so 275 00:22:29,020 --> 00:22:35,929 much pressure on themselves with work and just be aware that it is lonely and you need those 276 00:22:35,930 --> 00:22:41,009 support networks. So really go out of your way to find them. And when work starts to feel too much, 277 00:22:41,050 --> 00:22:45,849 push back on things like most of us aren't saving lives. Some of you may be, but most of us aren't 278 00:22:45,850 --> 00:22:50,609 saving lives out here. And so push back. If the meetings get too much, push back. If the targets 279 00:22:50,650 --> 00:22:55,009 get too much, just advocate for yourself. And if your partner at home is not supportive, send him 280 00:22:55,009 --> 00:23:01,329 to me and I'll beat them up. That's the only advice I've got. They're okay to lack. The producer 281 00:23:01,329 --> 00:23:05,289 has just shouted at me from the other room saying he really liked that bit. So I'm not going to beat 282 00:23:05,290 --> 00:23:10,689 your partners up. But what he said is when you get so focussed on work and you are very like, highly 283 00:23:10,689 --> 00:23:14,809 ambitious, this career driven person like you and I are, you wouldn't be listening to this podcast 284 00:23:14,810 --> 00:23:20,249 if you weren't. It can get lonely. And if you don't have a support system, it doesn't have to be a 285 00:23:20,249 --> 00:23:26,129 partner. It could just be one really great friend or one really supportive family member that you 286 00:23:26,129 --> 00:23:32,999 can sort of talk about your deepest, darkest fears and worries too. You need to find that 287 00:23:32,999 --> 00:23:38,160 person. Ask for help. Um. You know, even if you feel as though you've lost so much faith and trust in 288 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,559 the people around you. Because I have friends who feel like that as well. Their trust in 289 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,359 relationships has been broken and therefore they put everything into work. But make sure you have 290 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,479 at least one supportive friend who you can share this with, and it feels hard, like it feels so 291 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:57,639 vulnerable. I have truly, only in the last couple of years, started opening up about the fact that I 292 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,479 just struggle sometimes with anxiety, with nervousness, like when we do, when we're kind of on 293 00:24:03,479 --> 00:24:07,280 the verge of something big. So when we launch this podcast for the first time, I guarantee I'll be 294 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:13,359 the same. We launch a new product, we launch Fresh Start, um, when we're kind of on the eve of that, I 295 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:17,919 just cannot sleep. I'm just a nervous wreck. I'm up all night. I'm having to journal all my thoughts, 296 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:22,599 fears and feelings into my notebook. If I've got to have a difficult conversation with the team, if, 297 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:29,079 like, something comes up that I've got to broach with a friend, I don't know, I get this real sense 298 00:24:29,079 --> 00:24:33,870 of like nervousness and fear around it, but I won't let it stop me. I will still make sure that 299 00:24:33,870 --> 00:24:38,189 I have the courage to go and do it, but I need to speak to people about it. And for me, that's my 300 00:24:38,189 --> 00:24:42,709 partner. Um, all my friends. Sometimes I just send my friends, just send the girls group a voice note, 301 00:24:42,709 --> 00:24:47,509 and I'm like, guys, I feel really anxious about this thing. Has anyone done this before? Has anyone 302 00:24:47,550 --> 00:24:53,509 been through this at work? Has anyone been through this at home? Ask for help. And it's not always 303 00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:58,030 asking for the big stuff. Sometimes it's just like the tiny. Can I have a five minute phone call with 304 00:24:58,030 --> 00:25:01,909 you to discuss the situation that I've got going on at work, so I don't know what to do if there's 305 00:25:01,910 --> 00:25:06,069 people in your life that aren't supporting you. And I'm making it harder to do the things that 306 00:25:06,069 --> 00:25:11,469 you love. Please take a good, hard look as to whether they really deserve a place in your life. 307 00:25:11,469 --> 00:25:16,549 If you would like us to go through your dilemma, we've got an email address. Hello at the Boardroom 308 00:25:16,550 --> 00:25:21,030 podcast comm. Please send it in. It can be as short or as long as you need. We will keep everything 309 00:25:21,030 --> 00:25:26,069 anonymous. We will never use names. We will never out you. But we may talk through your dilemma. Live 310 00:25:26,069 --> 00:25:29,819 and we can spend some time going through it together. So if you've got one, please email in 311 00:25:29,819 --> 00:25:34,019 hello at the Boardroom podcast. We'll also put that in the description so you can go copy and 312 00:25:34,019 --> 00:25:37,259 paste it. Well, thank you for listening to this first episode. We're going to do these every 313 00:25:37,260 --> 00:25:42,179 single week. I'm thinking Wednesday morning, 8 a.m. I'm looking at t shirts. That right. Let's say that 314 00:25:42,180 --> 00:25:47,379 for now. Yeah Wednesday morning, 8 a.m.. And the reason I like 8 a.m. is the same why we do in the 315 00:25:47,420 --> 00:25:52,459 making on a Tuesday morning at 759. The reason I like an 8 a.m. is because it means you can listen 316 00:25:52,459 --> 00:25:57,339 to it on your commute into work, because that is the time when I used to always listen to my 317 00:25:57,339 --> 00:26:01,979 podcasts was on the commute into work, whether it was walking on my AirPods, in the car, on the train, 318 00:26:01,980 --> 00:26:07,818 whatever. Um, it just gave me that, like energy boost for the day. So wherever you are in your day, 319 00:26:07,819 --> 00:26:12,219 if you're watching this on YouTube, Spotify, wherever you are, um, I hope you've loved it. Please 320 00:26:12,220 --> 00:26:15,979 give us feedback. You can comment on Spotify, you can comment on YouTube. Give us feedback. What 321 00:26:15,979 --> 00:26:19,979 topic do you want us to cover next? Um, what would you love to see? What did you like? What did you 322 00:26:20,020 --> 00:26:25,059 not like? Please let us know in the comments and we will be back next week with another episode.