Mic check, 1, 2, 1, 2.

Okay.

Testing 1212.

From Natchez to Mobile.

I've been missing big time.

I love it.

There you go.

Fantastic.

Well, welcome to the to dad from dad podcast.

This is a podcast where we reflect back on what went well, what didn't, and what we would go back and tell ourselves if we could.

Today's guest is Mr. Randy.

Randy, welcome.

Thank you, Lee.

I'm honored to be here.

This is, this is the sweet spot of my life and so I'm happy to talk about this.

Yeah.

So I'm super excited about today's episode because, Randy, we were just talking about this before we started, but you are the first grandpa that we've got on the show.

You know, before we start, though, I just kind of like to give the folks listening some context about how we know each other.

And so Pete, the guy that was on the first episode of the 2 dad from dad podcast is your son in law.

He married Amanda.

You did.

And so you and I have.

Actually, I think probably the first time we met was at soccer Sunday morning at the ymca.

Indeed.

Probably watching Georgie play soccer.

And then Pete.

And we'll talk about this later, but Randy and Pete and I, we have a, a dry poker game that, that Pete tries to put together once a month that we go and play, which is fantastic.

Randy always takes all of our money, which is amazing.

And we'll, we'll talk some more about that, that poker stuff situation and, and kind of what that looked like for you too.

So.

Yeah.

So I guess just to kind of get us started here, would you run us back?

Well, let's do this.

Tell us about you've got three daughters.

Tell us about your beautiful wife Robin, and tell us just about yourself in that way.

And then what we'll do is we'll go kind of back to the beginning and we'll start.

Okay.

Happy to.

And let me start with the, with the biggest joy of all.

And that is three weeks from today, Robin and I will be celebrating our 50th wedding anniversary.

Wow.

So we, we've been, we've been walking the path together for a long time and I'm, I'm currently just kind of putting the finishing touches on gifts that I'm going to give to her and, and little blessings and things that, and we're planning on taking a trip to, to Italy in April to just to kind of celebrate that time together.

And one of our grandchildren is over there studying in Florence.

Wow.

Study abroad.

So we'll get a chance to pop in on her and see her.

But, yeah, we've been married almost 50 years, and we were married in La Jolla, California.

Beautiful place.

I was working as a youth pastor at a church there, and Robin lived down the street.

And we actually, both, unbeknownst to each other, we both planned to move to La Jolla while we were dating.

So she came to me and she said, well, Randy, I've got to tell you something.

And I said, well, no, I need to tell you something.

And so we kind of battled a little bit as to who was going to go first.

And she said, I'm.

I'm moving to La Jolla to live with a friend and I'm going to go to school down there.

Yeah.

And I said, well, you know, isn't that interesting?

I am moving to La Jolla because I've just accepted a job as a youth pastor at a church in La Jolla.

And so talk about serendipity, that.

I believe that that was a divine act of providence, and it was a wonderful thing.

So we.

We continued to see each other there, decided that we would get married.

We were married about a year and a half or so after we started dating, and unbeknownst to us, we became pregnant within the first few months of our.

Of our marriage.

We spent our first anniversary in our.

In a Lamaze class and so practicing natural childbirth.

And Sarah came along about a year.

A year and a half after we got married.

So it wasn't instantaneously, but.

But shortly after we were married, we.

We had our first child, and Sarah came along, and then two years later, Carrie came along, and two years after that, Amanda came along.

Okay, so I'm blessed with three daughters.

I've checked up on some of these podcasts, and seems like you got dads.

With a lot of daughters, you being.

One of them and me being one and Pete being one.

And was Matt, I think.

Yeah, Matt's.

Matt's all daughters.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Yeah, we're gonna have to find some bo.

Come on.

For sure.

Well, that's a.

That's a little bit of a different story.

It is.

Yeah.

But.

So I'm a. I'm a dad to three daughters.

I actually grew up with four sisters and a brother who was much younger than I.

Eight years younger.

So he really wasn't much use to me when it came to the gender thing, because when it came to voting and activities and stuff, they always.

They always trumped me.

Yeah, my mom was good enough to stand up for me every now and then.

And you grew up in The Los Angeles area.

Well, I was born in Burbank.

Okay.

California.

Okay.

And my dad was.

He joined the service as a.

He was a surgeon and he did some time with the US Navy in the.

They had a branch that was the Public Health Service back then.

I think it's a standalone branch now.

But he was with the U.S. public Health Service.

And so we lived in Southern California, Northern California, Seattle, Boston area, then came back and he wrapped up his service at.

In Fort Defiance, Arizona, which is on the Navajo Indian reservation.

Oh, wow.

So.

And then we moved again to Southern California, where I finished growing up.

And now we live in San Antonio.

And for those that don't know La Jolla, North San Diego, basically.

Yes.

Beautiful.

Lots of.

Is.

Are they seals or sea lions?

They're sea lions.

Sea lions.

Tons of sea lions in La Jolla.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The sea lions just.

They come up and lie around, bask in the sun and.

Yeah.

People go down and bug them sometimes.

I think actually it's illegal too.

That's right.

To disturb the sea lions.

But people run up to them and they get a little irascible sometimes.

Yeah.

And chase people off.

But it is, it is an unusual thing.

And you know, from the balcony where we lived in our first home, I could, I could see the ocean and I saw whales.

Yeah.

Migrating back and forth and.

Wow.

It was just a beautiful place to start.

La Jolla is.

La Jolla is probably the finest beach town in California.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, all right, so you and Robin, you went to La Hoya and then got pregnant shortly after.

At what point did you guys move from La Hoya back?

I guess it'd be north.

We did, We.

We moved north to the LA area within about a year.

A little over a year after we got married, I was a youth pastor.

My experience with, with being in the ministry with kids is that I. I had wonderful times with some wonderful kids and some wonderful families, but there were a lot of kids that were growing up in unusual opulence in La Jolla and they would come to our camps and our Sunday nights and our Wednesday nights and, and they would, they would leave and go back to their home environment and their home milieu would.

Was it completely undid all the stuff that I was trying to do.

So my frustration was that, you know, I would try to infuse and, and help them and, and I think there's still some lasting, lasting impact on kids, but I would work really hard to create goodness and create positive morals and, and self control and stuff, and then go back to their families and there's alcohol and drugs and divorce and abuse and all kinds of stuff and they, they just backslid.

And so I wanted to have more of a lasting impact on, on the kids that I worked with.

And so I thought, I think I'd like to become a professional therapist.

So that's what started it.

And so I decided.

Yep.

And I applied to some graduate schools and was accepted and eventually completed my doctorate degree in the Los Angeles area.

And now I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.

But it, it sprang out of the ministry because I, I just love being involved with people personally and as deeply as possible.

Yeah.

But what I really wanted was I wanted to have a deeper reach into the family system than being a youth pastor afforded me.

So how long have you been doing counseling?

49 years.

Oh, wow.

Wow.

Well, probably should have started with that.

I think we were talking before we hit record here and so not only do we get to dive into your story, but also from the added perspective of a professional counselor.

Marriage.

And what did you say it was again?

Marriage.

Marriage and family.

Marriage family therapist.

That's amazing.

The PhD is in clinical psychology, but my license is marriage and family therapist.

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

So three girls, you guys moved back to la, the greater LA area.

And then so you started being a professional counselor.

And I mean, you guys stayed in LA for 47, 48, 49 years after that?

Yeah, it was quite a few, probably 45 or so.

Okay.

Yeah, we were there and boy, that was a, that was a rough one for me.

Yeah.

Because we moved from La Jolla where, you know, I was just making ends meet.

Moved up to Los Angeles with a child, with a baby.

A newborn.

Yeah.

And she was just a few months old and Robin was, Robin took a job, a part time job to supplement.

And so she got to take Sarah to work with her every day because it was in kind of a unique childcare environment and I was going to school full time and working three jobs and then I'm also a musician and so I was doing music gigs on weekends and things.

So three jobs, music, lots of travel, being a dad, being a husband, paying the rent, paying the bills, and there were a lot of sleepless night nights.

There.

Was, was it.

When you guys started there, comparatively speaking, was California as expensive then as it is now?

Not nearly.

Not nearly.

Not nearly.

I mean we, we moved to the LA area and our rent was $330 a month.

Okay.

In our, in a two bedroom house.

And yeah, now that house would probably be 3, $500 a month.

So it's gone up exponentially.

Yeah.

And the population of LA county has gone up quite a bit too.

And it's, you know, sort of like that all over the place, but, but especially bad there.

You were in LA for the LA riots, you were in LA for the Olympics, you were there for OJ Simpson.

Like you were there for the gamut of all the LA drama, indeed, several.

Wildfires, earthquakes, therefore the 1984 Olympics, therefore the World cup in 1994, which I was pleased to attend.

And that's awesome.

It was quite a thing.

Got to see Whitney Houston sing the National Anthem.

Behind me was the Vice President, United States, Al Gore, and Dustin hoffman was about 10 rows behind me.

I had some primo seats.

Wow, that's incredible.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

So.

So you, that was your, I mean, it still is your profession.

So you did that all the way through your kind of girls growing up and graduating high school and going to college and getting married and starting families.

So I guess let's, let's camp out kind of in that phase of your life and talk about, let's reflect back on that a little bit.

So when you think back to, you know, I guess, you know, being, being a newlywed, shortly pregnant, shortly after, expecting father, you know, like what are in that phase of your life, you know, early kids, young kids, what did you, what do you feel like you got really right?

And what do you feel like you wish you'd done differently back then?

Well, that's a good question.

It's easy for me to look back and, and think what I would have done differently because of the business of it all and, but I have a wife who is so family oriented and I am too, but she was very intense about it and so she created family time.

We had breakfast together every day.

Even if I left at 6:30 in the morning, we would all be up and she would fix a nice breakfast for us.

We often had dinner together and you know, I'd be, I'd come home for dinner, run off to my evening job, and then come home at 10 or 11 at night and study and.

But, but we always, we always had family time and so whatever was available, she would schedule it for us to be together.

So Sarah was born in 77, Carrie was born in 79, and Amanda was born in 81.

And they came along kind of rapid fire.

And the benefit about that, that I'm really happy we did, was that we were younger parents.

How old were you when Sarah was born?

I was 26.

Okay.

Yeah.

Almost 26.

Yeah.

And.

And so then 28 with Carrie and 29 or 30 with.

With Amanda.

Okay.

And so still had lots of energy and lots of enthusiasm.

So those sleepless nights didn't take their toll on me back then like they would have now.

So, in a nutshell, in answer to your question, it's just we did a lot of.

A lot of family time together.

The downside is I was gone an awful lot, but we just made up for it with taking every spare moment that we had to.

To do.

Family.

Yeah.

Just being intentional.

You know, we've talked a lot about being intentional with your time.

Just making most.

Making the most of the time when you do have it, because I think, you know, with a couple of the guys, we've talked about striking that balance of, of being a father and being a provider and a husband.

There are times where you have to go and you have to go and work and do things and provide for your family, and it, it can be hard wrestling with that to, to leave your family, to have to go and provide for them.

So.

Oh, yeah, I. I can remember many a tearful morning when I would drive away.

Yeah.

And we had this big picture window in our, in our home, and I.

And I would see my daughter standing at.

Standing on a window seat.

Yeah.

Waving goodbye to me, like.

And.

And then when, you know, when I would come home, I could remember Sarah saying, oh, Daddy's home now.

Daddy's home.

As if to say.

Oh, right.

That feels good.

So, yeah, it was, it was good, but there was a lot of, A lot of time away.

Yeah.

And I guess it's sort of that way for a lot of young families, you know, as they're just trying to etch out their existence and create their profession and their, you know, their niche in this world.

And you just have to do it and make the best.

Yeah.

Of whatever time you can have, as long as you prioritize it.

Right.

You know, we just.

Yes.

Yes, I guess.

Yeah, it was yesterday.

Well, I guess it was Thursday night, so.

Over the course of my career, I have traveled a lot.

You know, getting up at 3 o' clock in the morning to go to the airport or getting up at 3 o' clock in the morning to drive across the state of Texas to go do something.

And from a very early age, the girls before bed every night, they started asking me, am I going to see you in the morning?

And the job that I'm in now, although it's, you know, with the same company, but I have, I have a much More consistent schedule.

And so there are times where I'm not here.

But it's funny because every night still before the girls go to bed, they ask me, are you going to be here in the morning?

Am I going to see you in the morning?

Wow.

And I just told them, just on Thursday night.

I was like, you know, I think you guys can stop asking me that.

Like, I, I'll.

If I'm not going to be here, I'll tell you.

But there was a point where it was every other day, you know, I was gone for a week.

And it's just funny how that residue kind of sticks with kids.

And I'm.

I'm kind of curious how long they're going to keep asking me that.

But anyways.

Well, as I'm listening to you tell that little story, I'm thinking, I hope they don't stop asking.

Yeah.

Because it's their way of saying, we love you, dad.

We like it when you're here.

Yeah.

We can hardly wait to, to have you join us in the morning.

So.

And I promise you there will be a day when you think, gosh, I didn't hear that question.

That's right.

I didn't even hear their voice.

Why?

Because they live across town or they're out of the state studying at school.

School or something.

So savor it now.

Yeah, savor it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What when you look back to that time, You know, is there especially the perspective that you have now because you've, you're getting to see your children raise their children.

Right.

So when you look back to that, from, you know, newborn to elementary school, you know, younger parents kind of just, it's really, you're in.

You're grind.

You're in the grinder, you know.

You know, what, what is maybe some advice that you would give to dads that are in that phase or what is some really good advice that you got when you were, when you were going through that?

Well, there are a lot of temptations that can.

And good temptations that can draw you away.

Like a friend will call up, especially when you're young, an unmarried friend or a friend without children, and he'll say, hey, listen, we're going shooting.

Or we're, you know, we're going to take a trip fishing.

Why don't you come with us?

For me, it's, it's really that the secret to setting a boundary and just saying no a lot.

Yeah.

Because you're choosing, you're choosing your wife and your children and just, you know, creating that, that special time where everyone knows dad.

Dad is choosing us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And of course, I grind in the guilt, too, with him saying, you know, I could have been fishing today.

Right.

And I could have been out.

Could have been out getting the yellow.

Yellowfin tuna.

Yeah.

No, I wouldn't do that.

But.

Yeah, but it's.

You know, they.

They knew I had opportunities.

Lots of different opportunities, but just the ability to.

To consider your resources, consider your options, and.

And choose family first.

It pays off.

Yeah.

It's funny you mentioned that.

I.

It probably drives Pete crazy because Pete invites me to go do stuff a lot, and I'm.

If I commit to doing something, I'm gonna be there, and I'm gonna be there on time, and we're gonna do the thing.

Like, if.

If I tell you I'm gonna be there, I'm gonna be there.

But when, in having kids, I have gotten to where I really don't like to commit to doing.

To do.

To doing stuff.

If my family's not, you know, Pete might ask me if we want to get together and play poker in three weeks.

Yeah.

And I'm like, oh, yeah.

I mean, maybe.

I don't know, like, it takes a chunk out of your heart.

Yeah.

And so when you say yes, and although we have a great time sitting around the table and, you know, poking at each other and eating M M's and chips and having a lot of fun, it's.

It's.

It's time away.

Yeah.

So you have to meter it out carefully, don't you?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Especially, you know, it can be tough when we've been gone all week and then you get home and.

I mean, shoot, sometimes you're.

You.

You come straight to poker from the airport.

I do.

I do, yeah.

Yeah.

And I show up 20 minutes late to the table because my.

My flight was delayed.

That's right.

Phoenix or something like that.

So.

Yeah.

When you.

So this could kind of segue so we could talk some more about the poker thing, because I think it's a pretty neat deal.

You clearly ended up surrounded with some good men early in your life in California.

How did that come about?

How did you.

How did you meet those guys?

What were you looking for?

And from what I understand, if I understand it correctly, like, you've stayed pretty connected to quite a few of those guys for 40, 50 years.

Would that.

What'd that look like?

How'd that come about?

When I was in college, I met.

I met a couple of guys that sort of took me in as their friend.

Yeah.

And they.

One of them One of the first things he said was, hey, do you know the Lord?

And I thought, whoa.

And of course, I. I didn't want to be knocked off balance.

And so.

Yeah, yeah, of course I do.

But I didn't.

Yeah, I didn't.

And.

And over a period of time, you know, he.

He took me to some meetings and.

And shared things from his heart and his spirit.

And I actually became a Christian when I was 18 as a freshman at San Diego State.

And.

And my friend Denny was like a.

An older brother in the faith.

Well, he and I were just very good friends right up until his death a couple of years ago, unfortunately of Alzheimer's.

And he was one of those guys that.

He would call me.

I would call him, too, because there was a point at which I. I sort of caught up to him in my walk with my walk of faith.

Yeah.

And so we would just check in on each other and say, so how's it going with so and so.

And, you know, how's it.

What's this happening in this situation?

There's another guy that.

That I wound up living with.

Denny was a roommate, and Rich was another roommate.

And Rich and I have been best of friends for 56 years.

As a matter of fact, I got together with him just two nights ago for dinner.

Yeah.

And.

And we just had, you know, several hours just hanging out together, talking over.

Over a basket of French fries and a burger.

Yeah.

And.

And we still get together, but we.

We checked in on each other.

We held each other accountable.

And.

And there were a bunch of other friends, too, that.

That oftentimes, you know, emanated out of our.

Our couples groups at churches and out of our neighborhood, and we just sort of agreed with each other.

We are going to be accountable to each other for being the best men that we can be, the best husbands that we can be, and the best dads that we can be.

Yeah.

And it was a really good covenant that we created, and it still goes on many years later.

Yeah.

So is that.

Is that the group of guys that play poker together, or is it a different group of guys that you've been playing poker?

That's a different group.

There were a couple of the guys.

Peace.

Dad was one of them.

Okay.

Yeah.

That we played poker with.

And he was one of my very best friends, too.

And we just, you know, always, always, no matter where we were, there would always be, how's it going?

You know, and it wasn't just, I'm doing.

I'm doing fine.

Yeah.

What.

What.

How's it going?

Really meant, are you.

Are you practicing the things we've been talking about?

Yeah.

So Pete's dad's name was Harry.

He passed away recently, too.

And I'm looking at my friendships now that I'm in my 70s.

I'm seeing people disappear off the cast of characters.

They live on in my head.

But he and his brother Peter John were part of the poker group, and those two guys were my.

My band of brothers.

Part of my band of brothers.

Yeah.

And we just.

We had this agreement.

We're.

We're not gonna.

We're not gonna put up with nonsense.

If we see you.

If we see you taking a path that we.

We just really disagree with.

Yeah.

Of course, there's plenty of flexibility and.

And latitude, but if you really step off the path, you're going to hear from me.

Yeah.

And so we rarely.

Rarely did that, but those were poker guys, and some of the other guys were just, you know, couple friends, which was a really special thing, too.

Yeah.

So we'd get out.

We'd go out with other couples.

We'd have them over, they'd have us over.

But it was a true fellowship of couples and of.

Of other dads.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, it's funny, the Pete, this poker thing, because you guys.

You guys have basically played together for how long?

40 years?

30.

30 years.

35 years.

But you guys did it the same way that Pete's doing it now, which is.

It's.

I mean, it's a dry game, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that's what we eat.

M M's and guacamole and.

And nobody's drinking at the table.

Yeah.

And I. I consider that to be, first of all, as.

As the old, older statesman at the table.

It's an honor for you younger guys to have me there.

Right.

But.

And I've never said this.

I'm gonna tell you now.

Okay.

And anybody that listens to this that's part of the poker group, you're going to know it.

I take that really seriously as it.

As an older dad.

Yeah.

And a brother.

But I'm there to kind of watch over y'.

All.

Yeah.

And.

And, you know, just make sure that, hey, if I hear something, you're going to hear from me.

Yeah.

If I hear something that.

That really is outside of the.

Outside of the lines.

Yeah.

You're going to hear me.

Every, you know, every now and then, there's a joke that comes up that's a little off color, and there'll be an expletive that happens.

And I just figure you know, that's just.

That's just these guys.

Yeah.

And they're, you know, kind of some roughnecks that come.

Everybody's a professional, though.

Yeah.

But.

But, you know, they're.

They're Texas boys, and I love that.

Yeah.

And.

And so, you know, you all have children.

That's one of the reasons that this group formed is because you, you know, got kids at the same school.

You got kids in soccer.

Yeah.

Or at church.

And.

And so there's a natural proclivity toward each other, but the unspoken agenda is we're all in this together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And.

And we want to make sure that we have fun, because that's a big part of life, too.

Enjoying our brotherhood, but we also watch over each other.

There's that unspoken thing that says, I'm looking out for you and I have your back.

Yeah.

The not drinking thing is.

Is interesting.

I've kind of wrestled with.

This is going to sound.

I. I've wrestled with alcohol a little bit.

Not.

Not like.

Not alcoholism, but just alcohol in my life.

You know, it's funny if I. I look back on some of the things that I said or things that I did that I regretted the most.

Normally alcohol was involved.

You know, it makes you feel terrible the next day.

And I tell you what, the older you get, the harder it is to get over that, you know?

Yeah.

There's a.

There's a country western song out.

I can't remember the.

The Artist, but it's.

It's Old tricks don't work anymore.

That's right.

You know that one.

That's right.

And alcohol takes a bigger.

A bigger impact on you.

Yeah.

Than it used to.

The older you get.

Trust me on that one.

I just think.

And, you know, don't get me wrong, we still, you know, we get together for New Year's Eve or we get together for the super bowl or whatever, and we might have some beers or some margaritas or whatever.

But this poker night, the game that we play, being a dry game is.

I think the not drinking piece of it is.

Is a.

Is a foundational thing for me because it reminds me what it looks like for five or six or seven guys to sit around a table and have fun without the need for alcohol to have fun.

Because I. I feel like in today's culture.

And I'm guilty of this, too.

You associate, man.

I just.

I kind of want to cut loose and have a good time.

You associate that with.

Well, if we're going to party, if we're going to get together, we're going to drink.

And I just.

It's been so healthy for me to.

To sit down at that poker table and play with you guys and just be reminded of, like, hey, we can stay up until 2 o' clock in the morning and be stone cold sober and laugh so hard that my stomach hurts the next day.

It's totally possible.

And alcohol doesn't have anything to do with that, you know?

Well, when you get right down to it, is alcohol really anybody's friend?

It.

It.

You know, who can have.

Who can have a taco and burrito party without.

Without beer and margaritas and it tastes good, and it's just part of the ambiance of the whole thing.

But is it really.

Is it really anybody's friend?

Not really.

You don't.

You wake up and.

And as you said, the older you get, the more.

The more of a bite it takes out of your next day.

And it does, but it's.

Is something that when you have an opportunity not to drink but still be there as brothers, it's still a lot of fun, too.

I can't believe how much we do laugh around the poker table.

Yeah.

Poke at each other.

Yeah.

You know, y. Yeah.

You know, I didn't even.

I don't know, I didn't expect to talk about this much today, but just.

I think one of the things I'm trying to do with this podcast is, and it's extremely uncomfortable just to really, Just to put myself out there in this way, but I think that if putting myself out there could help somebody else, even just a little bit, then it's.

It's all worth it.

And so here's kind of where I'm at just with alcohol in general is we went out for Whitney's birthday yesterday, and we went and had a nice dinner at a steakhouse in downtown San Antonio.

We went to a comedy club and had a couple margaritas and a couple drinks.

Everything was fine.

But leading up to that, you know, I hadn't had anything to drink in two months.

And it was funny because yesterday during the day, I was like, yeah, it's been two months.

I haven't.

And it's not.

I didn't even.

It wasn't dry January.

I started this back in November, you know, and I was just like, you know, I.

It's kind of.

It's messing with my sinuses a little bit.

I. I really don't.

I'm kind of tired of waking up with a headache.

You know, I'm just gonna.

I'm taking a break for a While the next thing I know, I look up and it's been two months, two and a half months, and I haven't.

Haven't drank at all.

And it was funny because yesterday before we went out, I was like, am I gonna.

Am I gonna drink tonight?

I don't know.

You know, and I've said this before, but I. I find myself.

I have kind of an extreme personality.

Meaning moderation with anything is hard for me.

Moderation with hobbies, moderation with working on things around the house, like moderation with alcohol.

Like, it.

It's just.

I like to.

If I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna go all in, you know?

And I feel like yesterday was I drank in moderation.

I feel fine today.

I don't know.

I don't even know where I'm going with this.

Randy.

I'm just saying, like, I guess I just want other guys out there when we talk about this in our men's group a lot.

But it's kind of like just normalize, normalize.

Saying, hey, I don't know how this fits in my life.

I don't know if this is really good for me.

I don't know if.

If drinking is really ever edifying for me.

And I don't know.

I don't know why I'm saying that.

I take it.

I take it as it's.

It's festive to a certain point.

Yeah.

I. I a wine bibber.

I enjoy.

I enjoy food pairing with wine.

Yeah.

And I have a.

A nice wine cellar with.

With good selections.

But I learned a long time ago because there are things that I look back on, and I think, I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't had that.

That third or fourth glass of wine.

And.

And I wish I hadn't said that.

So there.

There were some regrets.

It.

It is festive, and I enjoy a margarita.

I'm kind of a wine or tequila guy myself.

But I. I'm not a. I'm not a tight butt about that either.

That says, you know, you can't do that.

Yeah.

Or, you know, but I do believe that it kind of dulls your senses toward some of the more sensitive things, like, you know, what are the kids doing and what do they need from me?

What kind of an example am I setting?

You know, what kind of tone do I take when I'm impatient?

And it.

It can lead me down a bad pathway too.

And I've had to deal wrestle with the same question that you did, and that is, is it.

Is It a good thing.

Yeah.

And so a long time ago, I, I reined it in, but not that, not that I was struggling with alcoholism, but I.

Right.

But I think I said I do sort of have an alcoholic personality.

Yeah.

And I don't know you well, but I have noticed that you are kind of a quietly intense guy.

There's a lot going in that, going on inside that head and in that heart.

And, and so, yeah.

You say you're an all or nothing guy.

Yeah.

That helps me understand you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I, I kind of intend to just keep talking about that on this show and I think just making sure that other guys know out there that, you know, we've said this before, it's not about perfection.

It's just about direction.

That's, that's, that's the most important thing.

And, you know, early on, one of the reasons I wanted to do this show is because there, there's, you know, outside of the Bible, there's not really a guidebook for being a dad or being a husband.

There's not a guidebook for, you know, how to learn to enjoy alcohol responsibly.

There's not a guidebook for that.

You know, and so I'm just kind of bearing it all out there and saying, you know, I've.

I'm figuring it out and sorry I'm making it sound.

I hope people don't think I have, like, like, like I'm an alcoholic.

I'm not.

I'm just, you know, especially as the kids get older to the point where they're starting to, to notice, you know, it's kind of.

I, I'm starting to think more about, like, they're definitely seeing me in the way that I choose to consume and what kind of example am I setting for them?

It's more about that.

But anyways, I don't know.

No, I, I like the wander down the, the wandering that we're doing down the pathway.

And so I think it's.

It's probably a good thing because you're just expressing your heart.

And I gotta tell you that the question of what to do with alcohol is, Is sort of something that everyone ought to consider.

Going back to my old poker table.

They still play.

Yeah.

Can you believe they're playing without me?

Yeah.

But they still get together to play.

It's no longer late night, Friday night, it's Saturday afternoon.

Yeah.

Because these guys, 70s and several of them are in their 80s, but there's one guy who even, you know, and it.

That.

That's a dry Table, too.

But there's a guy who shows up with his vape, and he's.

I don't know what's in what.

What he's got loaded in that thing, but he's, you know, he's sucking on it.

Yeah.

Every now and then.

And then he's kind of got this dreamy look in his eyes, too.

So we don't.

We don't get on him for that because he's, you know, he's.

He's controlled.

Yeah.

But I. I think, you know, it's more than just alcohol, too, nowadays, because.

That's right.

CBD and the other substances are so readily available.

But you always have to ask yourself, what are my kids watching?

What are they seeing?

Am I setting a good example?

If they.

Because kids have a tendency to take what they've seen with you and go an extra step.

That's right.

And so they'll.

They'll enhance what they've seen you do.

Yeah.

And.

And take it to the next level.

So you have to be really careful to consider all things when you're.

When you're setting your examples.

Yeah, that's a great.

That's a great point.

And I. I think there have been a couple times where, you know, I don't know, we.

We could talk about so much here, but like I said earlier, I have.

I. I don't know, maybe.

Maybe we should just talk about this a little bit with.

I can't remember who it was, but we talked a little bit about regret and shame on the show before.

And I think alcohol as.

I kind of like.

Just think back.

I said earlier, you know, man, I've got some things I said or some things I did that I kind of regret and alcohol was involved.

But it's interesting how shame kind of plays a role in that.

And I don't know if what I'm feeling is shame or if what I'm feeling is regret.

I mean, being as, you know, you do what you do for a living.

What is that?

What's.

What's.

Can you quantify the difference between shame and regret?

And I could make something up here on the spot.

It's probably in the right direction.

Yeah.

One of the things I studied in when I was in graduate school, school was the difference between guilt and shame.

And guilt is sort of a synonym to regret.

Yeah.

And I differentiate the two by, you know, guilt is a feeling of regret that you have over something you've done.

Yeah.

Shame is maybe deeper and more insidious, and it relates to who you are.

Ah.

So Guilt.

Guilt relates to actions or inaction.

Shame is what's percolating in your gut.

Dang.

I have to think about that for a second.

Let me put it this way.

Guilt says I, I've done wrong.

Shame says I am wrong.

And I can again, sometimes make up for things that I've done wrong with contrition, with an apology, seeking forgiveness, changing my ways.

But if you're struggling with I am wrong, there's no amount of confession, seeking grace from somebody that if you got that, and that's really one of the things that we work on in, in therapy when I, When I see people is, okay, you could.

You've done wrong, but are you wrong?

And if you are wrong, then we need to talk about that, because I believe that that may be.

Yeah.

An error on your part to embrace that as.

As your life's situation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow, that's.

That's profound.

So I think.

I'm just trying to think here.

Yeah.

I would say the feeling that I probably feel is probably more guilt than shame.

No, I, as I.

As I think about it, I think it is guilt.

I think it's.

And this is, you know, what's funny is, Like, since we're.

Since we're talking about alcohol a little bit here, you know, The, the headache, the hangover, the.

The feeling, the, the saying things.

That you shouldn't say.

I, I think really, for me, what, what has probably been more the catalyst for change for me is the feeling of guilt, in retrospect more than anything.

And I would say, sorry, I'm just kind of having a revelation here as we're talking.

I think that having kids has magnified that pretty tremendously in my life.

And I, I, I don't know that that's a conscious thing.

I think that actually, I think a lot of that is a subconscious thing, but it's, you know, and, and to.

To.

To depart from alcohol a little bit, I think, in this.

In this conversation.

I think alcohol is just the.

It lowers your.

What do they say?

It lowers your resistance.

It lowers your resistance.

It lowers your.

Oh, shoot.

Yeah.

I, I just think that.

I. I've dealt with some guilt of going on vacation and having, you know, probably having a little too much to drink, and then woke up the next day and thought to myself, did I.

Did I rob my kids of an experience or some time with me?

You know, what do you.

I mean, what do you think?

Yeah, of course.

Because I'm relating to some of that myself.

Yeah.

And, you know, now, and I'm thinking of One particular day.

There's a bit of a story here.

I had this guy that was one of my best friends who was a professional baseball player and a famous professional baseball player, and he moved away and he went from LA to Florida where his spring training was, and I really missed him.

And so it was the first weekend that he was gone, and I was having a barbecue in the backyard.

It was fourth of July, as a matter of fact.

And I was drinking these margaritas and they were just a little too strong.

And I could remember slurring my, Starting to slur my words.

Yeah.

And then we went out to watch fireworks and we went to this busy street and, and Robin, my wife, said to Carrie, our middle daughter, who was the, she was the responsible one.

Carrie, I want you to take care of dad.

Don't let, yeah.

Don't let him get in trouble.

Yeah.

And trouble was, you know, falling down off a curb or something like that, which I didn't do.

And you know, in my mind, I was just as sure, sharp as attack, but I was slurring my words.

And so when you were telling this story about, you know, thinking about, oh, how did I do?

What did I do last night or yesterday, today we can talk about that.

And, and we laugh and we howl about it.

But I did have conversation with her and I just said, you know, Carrie, I drank too much.

I just drank too much.

Yeah.

And I was slurring my words and it was a shameful thing.

And she, and she said, and she was about maybe 10 at the time, and she said, dad, don't even worry about it.

Don't worry about it.

We all had fun.

Yeah.

And so she was a grace giver and I really appreciated that.

But the value of me confessing that to her, I think, was just to say I'm, I'm paying attention.

Yeah.

Paying attention to myself.

And I'm paying attention to the impact that it has on you.

And so will you forgive me for slurring my words so lavishly?

Yeah.

And she said, not a problem, dad.

Yeah.

And I felt free.

Yeah.

Well, guilt is an interesting thing too.

Yeah.

And I'm going to get into some of the roots of clinical psychology here, but guilt is learned by a child at around the age of 3 to 5 years old.

And it really comes from the way you're handled by parents and extended family.

And I, I, I came to learn that, that the ongoing experience of guilt is probably what we should call false guilt, because guilt ought to be a momentary awareness did wrong or I fell short and I want to make a correction.

And so with that in mind, I have a new game plan.

And then guilt ought to go away.

And if it doesn't, it's probably a throwback to how you were treated when you were a child, because false guilt is composed of three elements.

One is the fear of punishment, the fear of dis esteem or loss of self esteem or social rejection.

And which of us really experience punishment or loss of self esteem or social rejection?

Now, if we make a mistake, because everybody makes mistakes, so the experience with guilt ought to be momentary, just as a catch all, or I caught myself and I learned from that, and so I can be released from the ongoing experience of guilt.

Yeah, shame is deeper and more insidious, as I said, but guilt can be released with a turnaround of attitudes and behaviors.

Man.

All right, so you got about six hours.

Yeah, no, let's.

Let's.

Let's talk it.

Let's talk about that a little more because I want to understand here.

Again, I'm the guinea pig here.

It's.

I'm just putting it all out there, but I. I would say when I really mess up, man, I'm trying.

I'm trying to think of something here.

Like, Maybe the way to say it is I feel like I'm.

I'm always harder on my.

It's always harder for me to get over whatever it is I did than it is for the person that I did it to.

To get over it.

That's a really convoluted way to say it.

It's almost like if I do something that wrongs Whitney and I'll say, hey.

And I'm, you know, with a contrite spirit, I'll come and I'll say, hey.

I'm like, I'm really sorry I messed this up.

And I want you to know that I shouldn't have done that.

I can't imagine the way that that would have made you feel, you know, all of those things.

And Whitney might say, yeah, you're right.

You're.

You're a big doofus, and I still love you and I forgive you, and I really appreciate the apology, but it's.

Everything's okay.

Like, I appreciate the apology.

Man.

I still have a hard time.

And it's funny because I don't know what else I would want her to say, but it's almost like in my internal thought is, it's still not okay?

Is that.

Is that kind of what you're talking about, that false guilt?

Yeah, that's.

That's what I'm Talking about.

Because we have a tendency to surround ourselves in.

In our particular cultural group, we surround ourselves with people that.

That we consider to be good people.

Yeah.

I don't have any.

I don't have anyone who's an active murderer or a, you know, swindler or a liar.

They're just not my friends.

And so I surround myself with people who are grace givers.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, I've said this a lot of times in my office.

One of the most powerful forces in the universe is the.

The force of forgiveness.

Fresh starts.

And oftentimes what goes along with that is, as I said before, contrition, confession, seeking, seeking forgiveness, seeking a fresh start.

And because we surround ourselves with people that are likely to give things like that.

The true issue is that they're letting us off the hook and they're going to give us another chance.

Sometimes it doesn't happen instantly, but generally with people who love you, they're going to say, oh, yeah, of course, Lee, of course, Randy, I'm.

I'm going to forgive you.

Yeah, I don't like that you did that.

It did hurt what you said.

But, yeah, I believe.

I believe that you're.

That you have a contrite spirit.

And of course I'm going to forgive you.

That's just a.

That's a given.

So what has the lasting effect on you is the imprinting that you had.

Probably, and I don't know.

I don't know your background when you were.

When you were small, but at some point, punishment probably went on or, you know, go to your room.

You know, you're.

You're in your room for.

For the next six months.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Actually, when I was a kid, I did something, and my father.

My father grounded me for six months.

Wow.

Six months.

Yeah.

And it really wasn't even that bad, but he was.

He was real serious because it was a threat to my health.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so you.

You're home for six months.

Yeah.

And I think I. I wound up sticking it out for about three, and then he let me off the hook.

But.

But how you're forgiven and how you're restored and how you're treated and received back then has an awful lot to do with how you treat yourself now.

Okay, so I have a. I'm going to give you an example, and again, I could totally be wrong.

And I want you to tell me.

A couple months ago, actually, one of your granddaughters was here, and Kenna and Georgie were upstairs playing with a soccer ball inside, and one of.

I Don't know which one it was, but one of them kicked the soccer ball and broke one of the banister rails on the top of the staircase.

And.

Oh, I was mad.

Like, I was like, now what's funny is I, I heard it.

I came around the corner, I looked up and I saw what happened, and I think I was like, are you serious?

You know, And Kenna knew, like, dad's mad.

Like, Dad's real mad.

And even though I didn't, I didn't really fly off the handle, I was, I wasn't yelling and all that.

And she came down the stairs and she said, do you forgive me?

Right.

And I mean, this is like 45 seconds after the, after it was broken.

The crime.

The crime, Right.

And she starts crying.

And I said, yes, like, but I'm still mad, like.

And I don't know what I was trying to convey in the moment, but I think sometimes I've, I've, I've just noticed with kids, I.

It's like the real world is, I love you unconditionally, I am going to forgive you.

That should not be a question in your mind.

But just because I say I forgive you, like, but I'm not done being.

Mad yet, which is normal human nature.

Right.

It takes me a while to get over it.

Right.

And I, I, I, man, I feel like I really, I didn't know how to convey that to Kenan in that moment, because it's like she immediate.

She wanted reconciliation.

She wanted, she knew this is a big deal.

Like, that's probably the first big thing they've ever broken, you know, and she knew it was a big deal, and she immediately wanted to know that everything was okay with dad.

Right.

And I just had, in the moment, I just had a really hard time because I was like, I don't even want to talk right now.

Like, I'm.

You're going to have to give me some time because I don't know, Emma.

Is that.

How do you, how should you do that?

Well, there are two of the three elements that went on, and maybe even the third.

The, the, the fear of punishment, fear of loss of self esteem or disesteem, and the fear of social rejection.

Yeah.

Because you were upset.

She, she felt that punishment was, you're being, you know, giving her the stink eye.

Yeah.

And.

And because you weren't bouncing back instantly, she felt a certain amount of social rejection or isolation maybe.

Then she struggled with, oh, now I'm, I'm right being less than good.

And so in your mind, you know, I'M I.

My attitude is forgiveness, of course, but my position is, is I'm slower to bounce back.

But she doesn't know what's inside your head, in your heart, and so she takes it as well.

Yeah.

There should be an ongoing consequence, and.

And for some, it can go on for weeks.

Yeah.

I'm giving you the silent treatment kind of thing.

Well, you're not that kind of guy, but it did take you a while to get over because you're thinking about.

Okay, they were doing this, you know, and soccer in the upstairs bedroom is probably not the right thing to do up there.

You know, I suppose they had their cleats on and their pads and things, and.

And kick the ball really hard.

It could have gone through the window.

And what would you have to do?

You'd have to fix the window.

This one, you.

You broke a rail, a part of the railing in the.

In the balcony, and.

And you had to.

You're gonna have to figure out how to fix that or get someone in at cost to fix it.

So you're.

You're working it out.

She takes it as punishment.

Yeah.

And that's how she learns.

This is what you do when there's been.

When there's been a crime.

Yeah.

Or a sin.

Yeah.

And I really don't have an answer for you, because you just got to be yourself.

Yeah.

But you can do some repairs.

Yeah.

You can do some soothing afterwards.

And you can say, you know, I was slow to bounce back, and I wish I had bounced back quicker, because, of course, my love for you is unquestionable.

My forgiveness for you is.

Is implicit.

It's always going to be there.

Yeah.

And sometimes it just takes me a little longer to get all those processes up to speed.

Yeah.

And will you forgive me?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think.

I think that's.

That's something that I've really learned.

You know, Gosh, we're going on, I don't know, five or six weeks now of doing the podcast is.

The more I talk about this, the more I realize that we should.

We should really just talk to our kids more about our relationship with them.

I think sometimes.

And this.

Maybe.

This.

Maybe I'm wrong, but, you know, it's.

It's kind of like we underestimate their ability to understand and give us grace and forgiveness for what we've done.

Right.

Whether, you know, like, because to your.

To your point, I mean, I. I could sit down with Kenna and I could say, hey, man, I'm like, I. I was really mad.

This is like a Major inconvenience for me, you know, I gotta clean this up.

I gotta fix this, you know.

You know, the, the choice that you guys made led to this breaking, and it's not an easy fix right now.

Look, it's going to cost some money.

We're going to get it fixed.

The house is going to be fine.

You know, we're okay.

Like, I should probably sit down with her.

I don't know.

It, it's, it's.

I think it's an unrealistic.

Yeah.

Okay, let me lay on the plane.

I think it's an unrealistic, unrealistic expectation as a dad or a husband or a brother to think that you're going to be able to conquer your emotions in the moment.

I think that's an unrealistic expectation for yourself.

I agree.

Now, I think you can, you can improve.

Right?

You can, you can learn to take a deep breath and de.

Escalate, and I think over time you can get better in your reaction to those things.

But what you absolutely can do and have control over is that reconciliation mechanism after the fact.

That.

Which is.

And I.

For the purpose of, you know, this context with your kids, I would just say I think they can handle more of that conversation than you think they can.

I agree.

And you are right, Lee.

I've.

I find it at this point in my life to be really beneficial to have those conversations.

I try to take my grandchildren out and my, and my children.

I still date my daughters.

Yeah.

You know, I date my wife.

I date my daughters.

I wish I could be more regular.

And I.

And I date my, my grandchildren and we have these kind of conversations.

There's nothing wrong with revealing to them your own thought and feeling process.

Yeah.

And saying, you know, saying, you know, I was thinking back to what, what happened.

And, and here's what I could have done differently because I, you know, what I really care about is your heart.

But I find it really helpful to be able to also add.

And this is important for me anyway, to ask the question, what'd you learn?

Yeah.

I learned not to kick a soccer ball up in my bedroom.

Yeah.

It's probably good learning.

Yeah.

And what did I learn?

I learned that your heart is tender and that I can frighten you.

Yeah.

Or that I can intimidate you.

Yeah.

And I learned that I need to probably control that a little better, too.

Those are, those are empathy talks.

Yeah.

Is it?

I kind of have a.

This is a, an overly generic statement, but I would almost venture to say that if your kids are still at home.

And it probably that, but if you're, listen, you know, if you're listening to this and you responded in anger to something six months ago or a year ago, and you've got a kid who's 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, you know, 18 years old, it's totally okay to decide today to go back and still have that conversation with them about that time.

Do you feel like that's true?

Like there's, I guess what I'm trying to say is almost like a statute of limitations, you know, because.

Yeah, you know, I, I know even with my own, like with my own dad, we've had some conversations later in life and we're talking 10, 15, 20 years from an incident or a period of life where my dad reflected back and said, I didn't do that.

Right.

I didn't get that quite right.

And, you know, I'm sorry.

And I can speak for myself in the child, as the child in that circumstance, I don't, it, I don't care that it was 20 years ago.

It still meant a lot to me that he said that.

Yeah, I, I, I don't think there's a statute of limitations on any of that stuff.

If it's still working on you.

Yeah.

Best get to it sooner than later.

And if 20 years is the time, better late than never.

Because you as, as an adult man, when you're listening to your dad, you're still a little boy.

Right.

In some, in some ways.

Right.

You know, I can, I remember when that happened.

Or sometimes you won't even remember it.

Yeah.

But he'll try and remind you because it's working on him.

Yeah, but it's still, your heart is still tender.

Yeah.

Just like, like a little child.

Yeah.

And so it matters to you that Daddy says, I could have done that better.

I regret that.

Yeah.

Will you forgive me?

Yeah.

In your experience, One of the things that I wanted to ask you is.

I'm kind of at this phase of life with my kids where.

I really, when they leave the house, I really, really want them to want to come back home.

And this is going to be a little weird, I guess, to say again, it's like this, the story of my life with this podcast, but I've never really thought much about this.

But I never had a home to go back to.

Parents were divorced when I was 20 or when I was 10.

From the time I was 10 to the time I was 18, we probably moved.

Living with my mom, we probably moved 10 to 12 times over the course of eight years.

You know, my mom ended up living in low income housing and there was.

There was no.

And, you know, my.

My dad was always very welcoming.

Like, I could always go to my dad's house, but there was never a home to go home to.

And as a result of that, I look at your family and I look at what you've done and your relationship with your kids.

All three of those girls love you so much.

And I think for them to come home, home, you know, quote, unquote, home creates comfort for them.

It creates peace, rest and relaxation.

But you hear a lot of scenarios where, especially when you're my age, you hear from a lot of other people my age, like, they dread going to see their parents.

They dread going back into that environment, even when you're in college or.

All right, I'm rambling, but I guess I just.

Can you talk to that a little bit?

Like, what is it?

What can we do as dads when our kids are at home with us that.

That will at least set us up for the greatest chance of success to creating an atmosphere where your kids want to come home?

Well, oftentimes, home is more than just a physical structure.

Of course, home is the emotional environment.

And to be able to get around to saying, hey, Lee, you might not remember this, but 20 years ago, such and such happened.

And I've just been thinking about it all this time, and I want you to know that I regret that.

I'm sorry.

What that does is it creates a little more positivity, a little less baggage.

And I think kids have a natural yearning to find and create a home.

Yeah.

Something that we can do as adults in our.

In our lives, in our marriages, with our children, is to kind of redo some things that we wish had happened when we were kids, and hopefully we do a better job.

I'm very committed to trying to do better, and my parents did a pretty decent job.

But.

But I. I want to be a better parent than.

Than they were.

I want to be a better parent than I was 20 years ago, as a matter of fact.

Right.

You create that.

You create that home or that element of home, which now could even be a picnic at a park with your parents or your mother, your father.

Right.

Siblings.

And create something that just feels good.

Yeah.

That you're drawn to.

I like this.

You know, we've never really had that kind of time together, but I liked it and I'd like to do more that.

That may be your best shot at feeling like you have a home.

Yeah.

Someone I was.

I've talked to this.

I've talked about this to a couple people, and one.

One person in particular said.

And Gray mentioned it, I've been thinking about this a lot over the last few weeks, but Gray said he never wanted his kids to feel like a burden.

And as I think about this is kind of gut wrenching for me.

But, you know, the environment where.

Your kids feel like that you're put out every time they ask you to do something.

And one of the things that was mentioned was it's really easy for parents to not stop doing that, even when kids leave their home when they go to college.

And it's.

It's not.

It's not a conscious decision.

I'm gonna make my kids feel terrible about all the things that I do for them, but it happens unintentionally, you know, and that's one of the things that really spoke to me was.

If.

You act like it's a burden to be around your kids, if it's a burden when they ask you to do something with them or for them, and you continue to act that way when they come over for Christmas or Thanksgiving or when you ask them to come to graduation or come to a birthday party, if you still act like put out, then that's probably one of the biggest things that's going to make them not be comfortable being around you.

And I don't know why.

That just really.

In combination with what.

In combination with what Gray said, that really, man, I've caught myself a few times being really put out by the kids asking me to do something.

And even Matt, we talked about it with Matt last week.

Matt said, yeah, you know what that is?

That's selfishness.

That's because they're taking you away from something that you want to be doing for yourself more than you want to do something for them.

It's just.

It's just that's it.

That's the, That's.

That's the stem.

That's what it stems from.

And so.

I don't know.

You have any thoughts about that?

Well, the, The.

The plain truth is children are a disruption.

Yeah.

Aren't they?

Yeah.

I mean, they.

They change everything.

I mean, here you are, you're.

You're 23, 24, 25 years old.

And you're then.

And you're thinking, wow, my life's really clicking.

I'm hitting on all eight cylinders now.

And.

And then you have a baby.

Yeah.

And now you're not sleeping and you're just getting on a.

On a, an airplane with a.

With a child.

You lug in strollers and baby seats and all kinds of stuff.

They are an inconvenient disruption that we choose.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or, or we should remind ourselves.

I made a choice.

I made a choice to, to become a husband and a daddy.

And I have to remind myself.

Now, the practical reality is that you're never going to get around the, you know, you're, you're at the middle watching a football game, and it's late in the fourth quarter and it's a close game and, and your team is behind by a field goal and your daughter comes in and says, hey, daddy, I, I got something stuck in the tree.

Can you come and get it out of the tree?

Yeah.

And she's saying, I was playing with it, I was really having fun, and I, I need to get it back if I'm going to continue to have fun.

And you're thinking, oh, man, the, the game is going.

And, and you know, thankfully nowadays we can press pause.

Yeah.

We can, we can come right back, but it's like the roll of the eyes.

Oh, man, do I, you know, can you wait just a little while?

Or we, we communicate all those subtle things that say, you know, this is an inconvenience for me.

Yep.

I don't want to do that.

And the practical reality is.

Yeah, sometimes we're just, we're just inconvenienced.

And sometimes we will say no, and it will be a bit of a burden.

But to remind oneself, do a little self talk.

It is something that I, I've chosen to take on.

Yeah.

And like, like your girls saying, daddy, you're gonna, are you gonna be up.

We'll see you tomorrow morning.

And you're thinking, you know, it kind of puts a little.

Yeah.

Burden on you to hear that maybe they'll stop saying that.

And I'm saying that.

Yeah, they're going to stop saying it.

Yeah.

And you're not going to hear it ever.

Yeah.

Ever again.

And you're going to miss that.

Remind yourself, I only have this for a while.

Yeah.

And I don't want to squander it.

Yeah.

Well, again, another practical reality is there have been plenty of times I've blown it.

Plenty of times I've shot past that one and screwed up big time.

Yeah.

And that's, that's when, you know, one of those little private talks, just saying, hey, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't on my best behavior or I didn't show you that I loved you very much, did I?

And I'm, I regret that there's some reparation that can be done.

Yeah, some.

Some real soothing that can occur if you take a little time.

But, yeah, kids.

Kids are a burden.

We just don't want them to feel like they're always a burden.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know.

Oh, gosh, The man.

I'm just.

I'm just thinking.

From your perspective.

All right, I want.

Let's talk about the grandfather stage a little bit.

Okay.

It's because.

Do you.

As a grandfather, your perspective is completely different than it was when you were a father?

I mean, is that a.

Is that a true statement?

It is.

You hear a lot.

Like, grandparents get to.

You kind of just get to show up and do the grandparent thing.

And the best part about being a grandparent thing is you get to go home, you know, you get to leave the kids, and you just get to go home and sit in the peace and quiet of your house.

Right.

But.

How is your.

Like, what is your perspective, like, on engaging with your grandkids along the same thread of what we were just talking about?

Like, meaning.

I guess what I'm saying is if.

If you went back, like, if you literally could time travel today, back to when Your girls were 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years old, and you could be dad again.

But knowing what you know today, is that.

Is that kind of how you.

Graham, is that kind of how you show up as a grandfather?

Like, is it almost.

I'm doing a really terrible job of articulating this.

Is it almost like you get to do it over again?

Is it almost like you get to.

You've really honed your craft.

You've had a lot of time to reflect on what you did well and what you didn't.

And then you get to.

You get to do it again, but you also don't have the responsibility of keeping them alive 24, 7.

Like, I. I don't know, but.

Well, I. I go.

I'll back up just a little bit.

I heard people say, oh, yeah, well, you love your kids when.

When they're growing up, but wait till you have grandchildren.

You're gonna just love them so much more.

And I think, thinking to myself, how could that possibly be true?

How could that possibly be true?

I loved my kids so much, but then I had grandchildren, and I realized it is.

It is.

And you're exactly right, Lee, because you have all of the opportunity without the grave responsibility.

And so, you know, you can.

You can have fun with them.

You can watch them do stupid, dumb stuff.

And you think to yourself, yeah, well, I watched your mother do that.

And, and, and she's, and she turned out okay.

Yeah.

And I, I did that myself and I think, like to think I turned out okay.

Yeah.

And so I'm not going to sweat it.

I'm not going to stress over the fact that, that you're doing it.

Let me give you an example.

Okay.

Jack, my.

He's just a little older than Georgie, the second to the youngest.

We were out in the pool one day in the summer and we were roughhousing in the pool.

You know, it just.

He just climbs all over me and, and, and just, you know, he wants to wrestle.

He wants me to throw him up in the air.

And, you know, I, I can handle a certain amount of that, but at some point I get kind of, I get kind of worn thin.

Yeah.

And so he thought it would really be fun to come up and give me a wedgie.

Yeah.

Huh.

Huh.

Back when I was his age, we called him Melvins.

So.

So he comes up and he grabs my swimming trunks and he just pulls it right up my crack and, and I'm sitting there with a wedgie and I'm, you know, at that point I kind of snapped.

Yeah.

And I said, jack, and, and, you know, he had never heard me snap at him before.

Yeah.

Because stuff, you know, most of the time it's like, it doesn't matter.

Yeah.

You know, what'd you learn?

You know, let's have fun together.

It's, you know, I'm here for, I'm here for fun.

I'm not here to, you know, to chart out the rest of your life.

We'll let your dad and your mom do that.

But, but I didn't like the wedgie.

Yeah.

And so I snapped at him and he just kind of swam away, got out of the pool and he was just sort of wandering around the backyard and, and, and kind of kicking rocks.

Yeah.

And I realized, oh, man, I heard him.

So I did.

I took a moment to, to have that talk with him.

I kind of said, hey, Jack, come here.

And I said, you know, I snapped at you and I shouldn't have done that.

You know, we were having fun and all of a sudden I was mad and I apologize for that.

Will you forgive me?

So most of the time I can just let it go because who cares?

Yeah.

I'm.

I'm not there to, to do much other than, you know, keep him, you know, keep him entertained and have fun with him and, you know, sort of make sure that, that he's growing up.

Well, yeah.

But I don't have the grave responsibility.

Right.

And so I can have lots of.

Lots of opportunity with him.

And that's when it.

I kind of stepped over the line a little bit.

But most of the time I can just say, hey, don't, you know, don't dive over the.

Over the banister in the.

On the balcony.

Yeah.

Because it's.

It's 20ft down to the floor there, and you'll hurt yourself.

Right.

But if you do, you know, it's.

Well, I'll let your parents take you to the hospital.

Yeah, I. I will keep them alive.

Yeah.

Now, you probably shouldn't do that.

Probably shouldn't do that.

No, no, no.

Yeah.

No, don't.

Don't point the.

Don't point the Nerf gun in my face.

Right.

Yeah.

That kind of stuff.

But other than that.

How about it?

Yeah.

And it's.

It.

It is a little.

No, it's a lot easier as a grandparent.

As I said, you have plenty of opportunity without the grave responsibility.

Yeah.

You know, we actually.

I got my first.

I got a couple of emails from some folks that have been listening to the podcast, which was really exciting.

And one of the questions was, how do you handle grandparents who.

Seem to be actively undermining your parenting?

Like, they.

They almost show up in.

In a disruptive way relative to making sure that your kids are listening and obeying and following the rules.

And the person that wrote in said, you know, it's.

It's difficult because they see their.

They see their grandparents a lot, but the grandparents are fairly disruptive, and it's really hard for them to pick up the pieces when they leave.

You know, it's like hard.

Shift back into reality that now that grandparents are gone.

I mean, what would you say to somebody that's.

That's struggling through that?

You mean, what would I say to a parent?

Yeah, like a parent who's.

Who's struggling through that with their.

With ultimately, it's their parents that are the grandparents.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, then I.

Then again, I would say, generally speaking, and, you know, a lot of what we're talking about, Lee, is.

Are the ideals.

Yeah.

You know, living in a.

In a pretty contained and.

And comfortable situation where people care about morals and ethics and standards and boundaries, but most people, I've found, kind of live outside of that.

That comfort zone.

Yeah.

And so I'm.

I'm not fooling myself to think that.

That.

That my life, or maybe your life is typical of most people's lives.

Yeah, maybe in some ways.

Yes.

But some people have real conflicts with parents yeah.

Who've been under.

Involved.

Yeah.

As, you know, as parents and then come in and.

And set a different pace as grandparents.

Yeah.

And, you know, we add things like morals, ethics, standards, boundaries, alcohol.

Yeah.

Sometimes legal issues, setting bad examples.

There have been times when we have talked to our children, and I think that's the key.

You keep your own communication with your kids clear.

So they know how you feel, they know how you think.

So that if.

If grandmother says, oh, you don't have to do what your mother says, you know, you can come and do this, you know, then.

And then the kids, you know, because they've had this conversation with you, they would look over at you as if to say, I know what you're thinking.

I know what you're thinking, Dad.

I know what you're thinking, Mom.

Yeah.

And.

And you give them a nod.

You say, well, go ahead and.

And.

And, you know, do shots with.

With grandma.

I'll make up something.

Yeah.

But this is not what we do.

This is not how.

This is not what we embrace in our homes or, you know, what you heard, you know, when.

When Grandpa.

When Grandpa or.

Or Papa or whatever we call him, when he uses that.

That kind of language.

That's not the way we talk.

Yeah.

He's my father, and I can't control him.

Yeah.

And I. I love having him come over and visit because we don't get to see him that much.

But that's not the way I live, and that's not the way we live, and that's not the way I want you to live.

So just.

Just remember.

Yeah.

There's.

It's different.

I'm letting him get away with it.

Yeah.

Because I don't want to.

I don't want to create a problem.

Yeah.

If there was really something that.

That I totally disagree with, I'd stop him right there in his tracks.

Yeah.

But what I'm getting at is that you create conversation with your kids.

Yeah.

So that, first and foremost, they know your heart.

Yeah.

And they know that.

Yeah.

I'm being patient with your grandmother because she's your grandmother and we don't see her that often, and I love her, but I disagree with her.

I'm being patient.

Yeah.

But that's not the way it is.

That's not the way it really will be with us, since if you create that conversation, then they know how you're thinking and feeling, and they'll tend to reflect that themselves.

Yeah.

You know what?

This could be a. I feel like I'm probably in the minority here.

But.

I have observed so much dysfunction between adult children and their parents because of just conflict avoidance and conflict.

The word conflict kind of gets a bad rap because conflict can be very healthy.

I mean, it can be unhealthy too, but.

And if you really boil it down more than that, it's conflict avoidance typically looks like just communication avoidance.

And so it's my nature, my is.

Is.

We can talk about anything.

Like I'm gonna tell you, hey, when you do this, I feel this way.

Right.

And I don't have a problem doing that.

I, I wouldn't have a problem doing that with my dad.

I wouldn't have a problem doing that with Whitney's parents.

You know, but I've just seen, you know, I will have some adult friends and they'll say, yeah, mom, you know, grandparents are coming into town and it's always such a struggle because when they're here, you know, they let the kids do whatever they want.

And then when they leave, it's so disruptive to our, you know, to our whole rhythm and everything.

And it's like, well, what did your parents say when you told them that?

And they say, oh, I could never tell my parents that.

You know, it's like, well, why not?

You know, you don't have to be a jerk, you know, And I, I understand.

It's weird.

It's.

It can be hard.

And there's a lot of people out there that, that is just like their worst nightmare is to face confrontation like that.

But for me, I would rather take the immediate, uncomfortable, hour long conversation so that we could have years of fruitful relationship than to just both sides kind of live in agony forever.

And so, I don't know, I guess I would just, I don't even know where I'm going with that.

I would just say have the conversation.

Well, it's, it's a question of do I take the bull by the horns or do I let the, the bull gourmet.

Yeah.

And you probably, or somebody who avoids that kind of conversation or conflict might have grown up getting gored all the time by the bull.

But not, not in my home.

Yeah.

Not with my children.

Yeah.

Not.

Not with my marriage.

And, you know, there's a different sheriff in town, and the sheriff is, you know, when you come here and you're welcome here, I'd love to have you, but you can't do that.

Yeah, you can't, you know, you can't turn this into the dog and pony show that, that existed when I was growing up.

Yeah.

Come and have a good time.

But I do want you to behave yourself.

Yeah.

I do want you to reign in your tongue.

Yeah.

And, you know, as an adult child, that might seem a little bit challenging.

Yeah.

But it is.

It's taking the bull by the horns.

One of my clients said it this way.

You're either in the ring or you wear it in your nose.

You're either slugging it out or you'll become a slave to it.

So you either.

Either go for the conversation, which I like better than just saying conflict.

I agree with you.

Some of that is just avoiding the hard conflict.

And I love the fact that you're willing to take that.

That time to do it and just, you know, kind of have it.

Have it out a little bit.

Yeah.

Depending on the disposition of the parents attitude, they might say, well, we just won't come over anymore.

Or just, you know, I won't do that, or I. I won't.

I won't say anything.

I mean, that's an overreaction, and it's, you know, at the heart of it is kind of manipulation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm going to trump you here with, With, with, you know, you.

You raised me a.

A confrontation, and I'll raise you an isolation.

Right.

Or rejection.

Yeah.

I'll see your.

I'll see your.

Your conflict and raise you in isolation.

Yeah.

Or rejection.

So it's, you know, they.

They can still be guilty of bad behavior.

Yeah.

And guess what?

I'm a seasoned grandfather, and occasionally I can be guilty of bad behavior, too.

And I. I don't mind it if my kids tell me what you think.

Yeah.

Or ask me to do different.

Yeah.

Again, what did I learn?

Well, I learned that I'm not perfect.

You helped me with that.

Yeah.

And, yeah, I'll do different.

And I'm not always perfect with that either.

But it's a.

It's a good thing.

That might not happen if you don't have that conversation.

Just listening to you talk, I'm.

I'm kind of reminded of this concept that you could say it a couple different ways.

The one way would be the greatest compliment that you could ever receive as a teacher is for your student to outgrow you.

Right.

Said in another way.

You know, I think in the.

In the arc of most, you know, sensei student relationships, there is a point where the student becomes the master.

And I think with parenting and grandparenting, a really healthy place to be as a grandparent is understanding that the greatest success for you is that your kids are doing it better than you did it.

Right.

Exactly.

And that is spot on to where I am in my own process as a man, as an older man, as a grandfather.

My conviction, and I always have, like, a New Year's resolution that I consider to be coming.

This is like the voice of God gives me a word, and my word this year is pass it on.

And what it kind of means is I sometimes have to step aside and let them.

Let them be good because actually they're better than me.

Yeah.

In a lot of ways.

And that.

That makes me proud.

Yeah.

I got to contribute to it.

Yeah.

I sort of pat myself on the back.

But then they've.

They've taken it and they've run with it themselves, and they do so many things so good.

So well.

Yeah.

Like my.

My sons in laws, you know, they're.

They're shepherding their families in ways that outdid me.

Yeah.

Or outdo me.

Yeah.

And I'm proud of that.

I think there's.

I think there's just a lot of wisdom in that philosophy going into being a grandfather because, You know, the un.

The unhealthy relationship side of that is that.

What's the.

What, you know, your.

Your parents rate.

Your parents take care of you so that ultimately someday you can take care of them.

That's kind of the arc of parent child relationship, you know?

And I think just to a healthy place to be as a grandparent is that, like, I.

At some point I'm going to have to yield to the people that I've raised, you know, because there's this.

There's this nothing more song that.

It's called Fade In, Fade Out.

And it's this analogy of a father and son and how the father has.

Has watched the son fade into life, and at some point, the son will start to watch the father fade out of life.

It's a beautiful song.

And I'm.

I'm just kind of just.

I don't know, sorting through this in my head right now.

But, like, I think if you don't do that as a grandparent, you will be seen as incredibly overbearing.

You could be seen as very controlling and condescending.

I know that that's a big thing for grandparents too, is they still treat their children like their children, even though they're grown adults who are very fully functioning human beings who are raising human beings, you know, and so that.

That relationship has to evolve a little bit in order to kind of maintain the balance.

It sure does.

And fade in, fade out.

I'll have to look for the song.

Yeah, it sounds.

It Sounds interesting.

I think, you know, I must decrease and they must increase.

And you know what I'm noticing here, too, this is like.

This is coming from an older man who's in the fourth quarter, well into the fourth quarter of his life.

Yeah.

Younger men like you will oftentimes say to me, here, let me get that for you.

Let me.

Let me carry that to the.

To your car.

Yeah.

And I think, no, no, no.

You don't, you know, grumble and.

Yeah, I can do it.

And then I.

Then I tweaked my back or something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think I should have let Lee do that.

Yeah.

But what I'm learning is just part of life.

Yeah.

It's okay to say.

Sure.

Thank you.

Yeah.

It's not easy.

Yeah.

Because that's a challenge.

Accepting the fade out.

Yeah.

I mean, in some ways, I'll never fade out.

Yeah.

Even if I'm dead and gone, because my voice will be alive, my attitudes will be alive, my heart will be alive in my family, and that's what I've created.

Yeah.

But when it comes to, you know, carrying a heavy burden, isn't it wonderful that they care about me enough that they're looking out for me?

Yeah.

And that's just a phase of life.

Yeah.

I can't do what I used to do.

And I shouldn't have to because after all, their parents, too.

Yeah.

And they're doing a good job.

Yeah.

And I celebrate that.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, we're at about an hour and 45 minutes.

I told.

I told Pete and Amanda after I recorded with Pete.

Pete said to me, hey, you need to have Randy come on.

And I said, man, I'm not ready yet.

I said, I feel a tremendous amount of obligation to be more prepared.

And what's funny is I feel like I wasn't prepared for today.

I feel like we were kind of all over the place.

But I feel like I took a lot away from this conversation and I appreciate you being here and doing that.

I've said this with almost every guest, but with you, it's a little bit different.

I would really love it if you would come back because I have a long list of things that I wanted to talk about with you that we just didn't get to today.

And I mean, you don't.

You don't live very far from here, so.

Yeah, I would be honoredly.

And to tell you the truth, I always ask, so what did you learn?

And I'm asking myself, so what did.

I learned A lot just from having this conversation with You.

Yeah.

And that's.

That's.

I revel in that.

Yeah.

Because you're teaching me.

Just by asking questions and giving me your reflections on things.

I learn.

I learned tremendous amounts of wealth.

Yeah.

From listening to guys like you.

Yeah.

Who are conscientious, who care, who.

Who want to be the best dad, the best husband, and the best man you can be.

Yeah.

And so I stand back and applaud.

Yeah.

Nicely done.

Well, thank you.

I've been struggling a little bit with where we're going with this thing, because I have been absolutely blown away.

I mean, if I'm being honest with myself, when I started the podcast, I thought, I'm doing this for other people.

This is.

But I tell you what this has turned into is like, this is not to get all soft and squishy here, but like, this is changing me way more than I thought it was going to.

And when I started, I had all these.

These questions and I had this framework, and I was going to try to ask everybody the same type of questions, and I always do quite a bit of preparation.

I mean, for you, I had a boatload of questions to ask today, and I don't even think I asked you any.

Any of them, other than the first one, you know, and I.

To this point, I don't know if the people listening are enjoying this type of content or if I need to go back to more structure.

If you're listening to this and you have an opinion on that, let me know, because it is important to me that this is constructive and easy to listen to, for people to continue to listen.

And I can understand how me just getting on the microphone and having these types of conversations may not be for everybody body.

But as I learn and continue to learn how this works and how to settle into it, I've just been totally blown away with how.

How much of an impact this is having on my life.

And so thank you for your kind words.

I. I really hope that this is helping people because like I said when I.

That's why I'm telling.

That's.

I'm telling myself that's why I'm doing it, is because I want to help people.

The.

The massively, I massively underestimated how much this was going to help me, and it's been incredible.

Well, and to that, I would say you're doing it right then.

If you're learning and you're growing.

And I've always said, if.

If you really want to.

If you really want to embrace something deeply, try to teach it.

Yeah.

Or facilitate it, because then you take on the responsibility of it, and you.

You.

You think about it and you learn and you grow so much.

Yeah.

As apparently, you are.

Yeah.

Thank you again.

Until next time.

My pleasure.

All right.

Blessings on you.

Yes, sir.

Sam.