It's not every day that someone just decides to develop something on their own

and create a tool that is useful for the podcasting audience, but that is what

our guest did today. We are excited to talk about it. We are chatting with

Scott Wyden Kibowitz. He is a photo

photographer, community manager, and podcaster. You can learn more about him at

scottwyden.com. Of course, we will have a link in the show notes so you can

easily find him. Scott, thank you so much for joining us here on the show

today. Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome to be here, Matthew. Thanks for

for for connecting, and and I'm looking forward to this. It's

my pleasure. And we were connected by, Greg Wasserman, I believe, and, he's

been on the show before. And, he is very good at making connections with

people, so I'm excited for, this conversation and, this relationship.

So before we get to this tool that you've built for podcasters, which kinda helps

with rankings and and things like that, tell us how did you get started in

the world of podcasting to begin with? Yeah.

So I'll try to keep this brief, I guess, but,

I as as as, as young

as podcasting is, I've been podcasting longer than

podcastings have podcasting has existed. What

that's what I like to say because, when I was younger,

I was, I I would hang out with a friend

on my street, and we would just take a boombox and just record ourselves

talking about whatever it is, record conversations, make up stories,

whatever. You know, sort of like when you you play with your Ninja Turtle toys

or your Star Wars toys, and you make up these stories. We were doing

that on tape. So I've been

doing this for as long as I can remember, but, really,

it it was straight out of college when I,

I originally went to college for music recording. I wanted to own a recording

studio, record bands for a living, and then I shifted

my my, focus in college to photography technology.

And once I was out of college, I sort of combined the

2 of them, and while I was working in the photo industry serving

photographers, I was also hosting podcasts

and educating photographers, having conversations with photographers in a

podcast, and it's evolved over the years, of course. But so, I've

been doing it for for about 20 years at this point.

And that is your The Workflows Photography podcast?

That is one of the, many podcasts that I have right now, but that's the

one I have for work. So I have a few personal ones. Some are experimental,

some are for fun, and then I have one that I have,

with my full time job is, is the Workflows Photography

podcast. Yeah. Gotcha. Alright. Very cool.

You know, it's funny. Photography podcasts, I was so

shocked when I was really getting started in the podcasting space and

talking to people about all the different topics. And, you know, somebody said, oh, I

do a photography podcast. I'm like, really? I mean, this is an audio

medium. Like, what what what good is a photography podcast? And then I was shocked

and and corrected, when I saw their podcast

thing, like, photography was one of the most popular categories

of shoes, that could be out there. There were just hundreds

of photography podcasts in existence. This is, like, way, way,

way back in the day. Why do you think that is? Why are so many

photographers also, in the podcasting

space? Well, I think that it's there's it's twofold.

The one that's existed for a while has always been the

business side of the photo industry. So that's what our show is, for example. It's

it's we're we're helping photographers with their workflows from the business perspective.

There are shows that it talks about the art, and I

think it's it's a little tricky because

it is hard to visualize what you're talking about when you're

talking about the photo, but, I

there are ways that photographers have been able to communicate

the, the feel of when they were making the photo, why they did it,

things like that. And so there's many different types of photography

podcasts, and I and, the more recent one I'm seeing come

up are now this is one that I'm starting to teach photographers that

they should be doing, is the the podcast

for the photography clients. So while they might still show up

for search results for photography, it's more,

for their clients or their vendors that they work with

to find them. So there's a wide range of

different types of photography shows out there. I think that

it's even though it's a very specific niche, it's there's

so many levels to it. Have you found

that having a podcast was helpful in acquiring new

clients or in how you build relationships with the people in your industry that you

were trying to connect with? Yeah. 100%. So during the

pandemic, I started a podcast called Jersey Brand. So I live in New

Jersey, and, there was a there was a

big, big shift. Wait. You said you're in New Jersey too? Yeah. Down

south. Oh, I didn't know that. That's funny. I'm I'm, I'm

in the in Monmouth County. So Ah, we'll talk more about that

offline. Don't wanna give away your exact address, but I'm sure we have a lot

of similar friends. So,

there was a shift where a lot of people a lot of photographers were offering

during the pandemic because they couldn't get up close and personal with

their clients. They were doing, porch family sessions.

So the photographer would go, and, the the

family would go out to their front porch, their front lawn, whatever it might be,

and the photographer from a distance would photograph those families. Very

inexpensive, very fast, fun, but, like, the

best you can do during pandemic times. And so

I said, wait a minute. We could do this for businesses. So I started a

podcast called Jersey Brands where I just

as I was driving around, as I'm walking around, and I see different things, what

local businesses are doing, I would record an episode on my

phone of I noticed x, y, z company is doing

this in this billboard. Here's what I would have done different if

I ran this business. And it caught the attention of a couple local

businesses that went up hiring me to do porch business

sessions. So I wind up photographing the business and their employees

wearing their company shirts and branded masks and stuff in front of their stores.

So, I that was my own

personal win when it comes to a podcast, but I've been working with other

photographers that have, let's say, like, wedding

podcasts for their wedding couples or their vendors to find them that have

also been, successful in in the,

like, accolade of, hey. You must know what you're doing because you've got a podcast

about this. So that in itself, helps

helps them get more business. Because photography

and because, like, right, the work that you're doing is very localized. Right?

You're not driving to Oregon to do a porch photo for a family.

Right? That it just doesn't, you know, make sense. What were you doing to

attract or market your show to the local audience?

Good question. Yeah. So for that for that, Jersey

brand show, all I did was push it out on

social, especially local Facebook groups.

Just just say, hey. I got a a podcast about some of the businesses that

you shop at, and and, those

businesses are in those groups, so they see it. So

when it's a local one, you gotta spend your efforts,

doing what you may hate doing, which is spending more time on Facebook, but

spending time in those local groups interacting with those

people and those businesses, whichever your your

audience is. Gotcha. So let's let's fast forward a

little bit. So the reason why we were introduced is because you came up with

something called the podcast rank report. Tell

us what that is and why you decided to put this together.

Yeah. So the podcast rank report

is, a metadata

search, so to speak, of where your podcast

ranks for a specific keyword on Apple

Podcasts and Spotify. We know that YouTube, right,

is part of Google, and their SEO, so to speak, is

for YouTube is more like Google. So I didn't focus on YouTube at all.

I went specifically to the to the the core,

you know, audio first players that

most people are having their shows listened to listened at

the most. And, what it

does is it actually you put in the name of your of your

show, you put in the keyword that you wanna see how

you rank well for, and it's going to

do a search behind the scenes of that and spit

out a number. I rank 50. I rank 48.

And it breaks it gives you a bullet point of where you rank on Apple,

where you rank on Spotify, and then, actually, we'll give you the

list of 1 to a 100 on Apple and 1 to a 150 on

Spotify so that you can you can see for yourself

in the data, yes. This was correct. I am with

5048, whatever I just said. And it emails you this

within about 2 minutes. The reason why I

made this was very selfish of me,

because Test them just to let me know. Yes. Yes.

I wanna know how my shows are doing

for specific keywords. There are many tools out there that tells

you, in general, how your show is doing, but it's not

specific to what your audience might actually be searching for.

Right? In the case of our show, the Workflows Photography podcast,

I know that our audience are searching for photography

as the keyword or what they what shows they might wanna follow or subscribe

to. So I didn't want a, more generic

tool that just says, oh, you're ranking in the top 100 for

for entrepreneurship or top 100 for arts or visual arts or

whatever. I wanted a specific keyword, not the category

of how well I'm doing. And there was only one

tool that has ever existed that did this, and they went out

of business. And I was very disappointed when they went out of

business. Yeah. I used to use that for, for podcast audits with clients.

It was a great tool for, keywords and and kinda understanding your your

show SEO. Yes. Exactly. So,

I wound up buying a one of those no

code type platforms because I am not a developer,

and I knew that this

once I figure things out, that tool could be the back end for

what for this podcast rank rank report.

And it took me a while, but and it took some help

from the one of the developers of this no code platform,

because I am not a developer, and it worked.

And I so I tested it and tested it and tested it, and then I

built the front end using, Gravity Forms on WordPress

so, that way, like, it I can use my WordPress site to

to to to track what people are are, submitting and also

send the email with the, with the results and things like that.

So it's a combination of of multiple tools

coming together to make this work.

But it works, and it's, it's amazing. And I scratch my own itch.

I'm very happy about it. I'm curious. How

often do you think or or does your, you

know, reports show that people are really

searching the stores for podcasts based on keywords

or I don't know. I I find it the search of

podcast, you know, confusing, annoying,

not super helpful. And so I'm just curious, like, really

how big of a piece of the discoverability

share does this keyword search really play into podcasts, or is there

anything that you've been able to extrapolate from the data thus far?

One thing I have noticed is some people think that the keywords that

they're trying to track is an obscure keyword that no one

would probably search for. So I

think it, you know, it there's there's I think

there's 2 types of of podcasters out there. There's

the podcasters who know,

maybe there's 3 types. There's there's the podcasters who know,

I want like like, in my case, I want my show to rank when

somebody searches for the term photography. Right?

Then there's the podcasters who,

don't really understand how they want their

show to rank, or,

or or, like I said, think that a certain keyword,

is is what is important for them even though it may not be.

And then there's the 3rd type would be the podcaster. They just really

don't care. They're just doing it. There's podcasts, and they're not so concerned

about how they rank and whatnot. And I will say

that, I don't

think anybody truly understands podcast SEO. I don't

think the algorithms are the same

for Apple versus Spotify.

I just, I do a lot of testing for the the show that I

have for work, and I did

a test of workflows hyphen photography

podcast, workflows photography podcast, and

the workflows photography podcast. And I'll tell you, when I added

the word the in front of it, which is a stop word,

our rank got better on Apple and way worse on Spotify.

So something something is very,

very strange about, about podcast SEO

that I hope one day somebody truly figures out,

and and it can really help everybody. Maybe I

mean, I don't really collect any data, so to speak. I I

have the data of what people search for and the name of their

show. But from that, I can pull out

things like, common and I actually put this

on the landing page for the report, common stop words that

shows are using as well as common symbols. High

the two two common ones so far are the and

symbol and the, hyphen symbol.

So, and it's not even that common.

It's, 12.12 percent of the shows that have been

submitted so far have the hyphen. 3.03 have the

and symbol. So it's not many, but

36.36 have the in it.

That I can understand as well. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I'm

not, I'm not I'm not here to track people's data in that sort

of way. I I am interested in seeing what I could find, like, that

kind of cool information from it. But,

but, yeah, I I don't know. It's it's a it's a complicated thing,

and I just know that when I was building this

and I shared it with a bunch of other,

podcasters, and I was like, would you find this valuable? They all were

like, yes. So I'm like, I knew if it would work for me

and and others want it, why not? Why not? So,

yeah. And if you're curious about the report, check out scottwiden.com/podcastdashrankdashreport.

Again, we'll put a link right there in the show notes so you can very

easily find it. Also, while you're there, do me a favor and

click on the upvote button, for product hunt and,

give Scott's platform a little bit of love. And you can check out

everything else he's doing at scottwiden.com. It's

w y d e n, scottwyden.com.

So Scott before we let you go, we have a couple of questions that we'd

like to ask everybody who come on the show. The first one is I mean

obviously, you know, it might be search because that's what you seem to be

working on right now. But having been in the space for a long,

long time, right, recording in your boom box way back in the day,

are there is there a place or are there a few places in the podcasting

world where you'd like to see some big improvements whether that's on

production, discovery, distribution, just anything where you're

like, man, podcasting would be so much better if blank.

So I know that there's a lot of different

individuals plus businesses trying to push for

more standards across podcasting. Right? You've got,

Transistor, which is the host that I use that, really

tries to utilize all those standards in everything they do,

but there's some there's some breaking points that

different platforms don't not supporting, don't

get back. So for example, I would love

to see things like reporting to be more universal

between platforms. There's things

like YouTube, which is really trying to push hard with the

podcasting, but most players don't see the YouTube

stats back in the in the in the

hosting to so you have to look at 2 different places to figure everything out.

So I would love to see more of a of a,

universally adopted system

make their way throughout the whole e the whole ecosystem. Right?

Podcasting's funny, because yes, there's competition between the hosts, yes, there's competition

between the players, but it helps everybody. If they

all if everybody adopts one standard and they just all

utilize it, it helps everybody. So I would love to see

that happen. Alright. Fair enough.

Again, you you probably have a lot of these things, but is there a piece

of tech on your podcasting wish list, whether it's hardware or

software? It could be something that's out there that you just haven't bought yet or

could be something that hasn't been made yet that you'd love to see, created that

would help you as a podcaster.

Yeah. So

I have I use a Rodecaster Pro 2 on my

here with me right now. Right? And

I've been working on a travel kit for when I go to trade shows and

wanna talk with people there, and in the past, I would just use

a DJI Mic 2, clip

clip me and clip the the guest, and and I would record

and have it go right to the camera, plus record in the in the mics

themselves as a backup. I would love to see,

I have a one of the little Zoom,

I don't know. I forgot which model it is, but it's one of those Zoom

portable, Like a h4, h5, something like

that? Yeah. One of those, but it's it's, one of the older

ones, and it's it has the 4 XLR ports in it. It

doesn't have 32 bit float, and I find that when you're at trade shows,

that is needed. So I would love to have

something equally as portable, not doesn't need all the bells and

whistles, but it needs 32 bit float, needs to be lightweight, small,

and have 4 XLR ports,

plus headphone outs.

I'd love the fact that what the 8 the the Zoom has I think it's

4 double a batteries, like, simple, but I could

still plug it in USB and power it that way. So

Zoom's probably working on it already, but Well, actually, there's a Zoom

they they refresh their line. There's the Zoom H6 essentials that

does do 32 bit float. It has the 4 XLR ports. It's only got the

one headphone jack, but, you know, you put a headphone amp in or I don't

know. When I'm when I'm recording in a loud conference, I don't usually make other

people wear headphones. I might put an earbud in just so I can hear if

they're on mic, but, that's probably the closest thing that we have to

it right now. Although, again, more to discuss with

you all fair after this call. So, stick

around. And then lastly, are there podcasts on your

playlist that, you know, no matter what it is you're doing or whatever

else you're listening to when they drop a new episode, you were stopping, you were

listening, you're never gonna let an episode go past you? 100%.

There's one, and it's my,

let me not think about anything important and just enjoy

the conversation, smartless. Funny, always.

Just laid back.

I wanna be a guest one day just because,

you know, it's it's so it's such a good show.

Yeah. And that is if I was to if you said to me,

2,025, you have to subscribe, pay for 1 podcast,

that's the one it would be to have no ads. Fair

enough. Fair enough. Yeah. Well, we've been chatting with Scott

Wyden Kivowitz. You can find him at scottwyden.com while you're there. Make sure

you check out his podcasters rank report and

give it an upvote, while you can, Scott. It is a pleasure. Thank

you for joining me today. Thank you.