>> Charlie: So, after chatting with Tom for the episode, and, spoiler alert, hearing
him talk highly about nitrates and in particular
Beatit sport products, I wanted to get in touch with the
team at Beatit Sports to find out a bit more about the
brand. And so, at the end of this episode, you can listen to me
chat with Jonathan Cartwright from Beet It
Theyve also kindly sponsored this episode of the Cook Eat Run
podcast with X Miles. Listen in for a discount
code to save across the whole of the ex miles range of nutrition
products, including the Beatit Sport range.
Welcome back to the Cook Eat Run podcast with X Miles.
On the podcast today, I'm chatting with Tom Hollis about
nitrates, beetroot and whether they can improve
running performance. Tom Hm is an ICU
dietitian and has worked for the NHS
previously for ten years. Registered sport
dietitian and super fast runner. In fact, he
won the Milton Keys marathon over the
weekend. Tom, how are you doing?
>> Tom Hollis: Hi, Charlie. Yeah, I'm very good, thank you.
obviously, the day after a marathon,
you're not at, tip top condition, but I am buzzing
because I did not go into that, race expecting
it to win it. I knew there was an outside
chance, like one in
ten, one in 20, but, yeah, really pleased.
>> Charlie: So it was quite quiet on social media that you
were even running? The first I saw of it
was a little, hey,
whoops, I won more later. so was that an
intentional keeping it quiet, take the pressure off, or was
it a last minute decision to run?
>> Tom Hollis: Both. So, yes, it was a very
deliberate decision to keep it much
more low key in terms of social media,
even telling family and friends, because what
I think, just to give it some context, I did
London marathon 15 days before that. and, I, would normally
say doing two marathons in the space of 15
days at, 100% effort is
not optimal, because I'm also
a learning coach and it's not necessarily something that I would
advise my runners to do
routinely. but, I have a very specific goal
for London to run 229.
I was quite confident of doing that. Leading into
it, training had gone well, and I
talked a lot on social media about how I
was going for it. All my family and friends knew I was going
through some really specific goals. And because
in the years leading up to it, even if
I have doubts, I pretty much
always ended up with what I wanted from
races. So I think everyone around me just assumed
that every single time I would hit whatever target it was that
I was going for. And I've had so many messages of people
saying, you'll smash it, oh, you'll definitely get it, blah,
blah, blah. and loads on social media. And whilst everyone
means well, and I really do appreciate
the messages, I think it just loaded a
bit more pressure on me that I didn't
need when, actually, I just needed to be a bit more focused on
the goal. And as you well know, on a marathon
day, anything can happen to just slightly knock
you off course. My heart rate was really
high in the day, and I just don't think I was quite at
100% or have been since,
to be totally honest. because marathons hit your
immune system quite hard.
Anyway, I ended up, less
than a minute off my goal. So 2
hours 30 and 54. And I
know everyone says it's an amazing time, I know
it's a good time, and I'm lucky to be able to run those talents, but
it wasn't quite what I set out
for. so then hatched a plan with
my own coach, Chris,
to do Milton Keene's marathon 15
days later, with serious downtime. In
the meantime, we aim to
get an England vest, which is a
concept. Ah, that was new to me. so, basically, once
you get to the masters age categories of
v 35, v 40, and
beyond, all the way up to at least v
70, I believe
you can now, for each race
distance, there are about, three or four
qualifying races that year where if you
get in the top three in your age
category, you then qualify for an
England vest. So you get to wear a vest saying you're
representing England at, that distance at the low
end race later in the year. So London
marathon was one of the qualifying marathons. And obviously, it's
pretty hard to get the top three
there. Milton Keynes was one of the other
ones. And so I never considered it, but
quite a spontaneous decision to just do it.
And, so that was my own, was to get top
three v 35s. Cause I'm
clinging on to the b 35 group for another two months on
v 40 in July. and, I
knew that was a high chance. I knew there was an outside
chance of overall podium looking
at the previous year's results, and I
did not expect to win the whole thing, but, I did,
and it was a lot of fun. it was a very,
very tough course. So times went out
the window. Everyone faded
really, really hard.
But, for me, I was able to fade slightly less hard than
everyone else and pick my way to the front.
So it was really. It was good fun in invert
cons.
>> Charlie: Yeah, I mean, having done back to back marathons
twice, it's not something for the faint hearted.
It's. I found my two weeks post
Boston going for a five k tricky. So how did
you. How did the mindset flip from
or when did you decide after
London. Right, let's go for this. And how did you kind of change your
mindset from like. Right, that was about a gold time.
This is about a placing.
>> Tom Hollis: so yeah, just the whole approach was very different,
like I say, because London have been quite
pressurised and very public. Milton
Keynes, about five people, knew
six people maybe. And I really
enjoyed that aspect. but it was just a little
secret of mine and I felt
much less pressure going into it. personally I was pretty
chilled. I mean, at least from a
running perspective, I felt quite
chilled. Life was really chaotic in the week
leading up to it. We've had. I mean, this stuff
doesn't happen in London, but we had a
two day power cut, where we had no. We have nothing in
the house, no hot water, no
heating, no lighting, blah, blah, blah. And when it
finally came back on, all of our appliances
had blown, like chaos for
about, 300 houses in the surrounding area as well. And
we're still not quite back to normal anyway. But.
So life had been quite chaotic that week. And I got
sick. So that, the first
marathon I
was probably harbouring something or my little
boy had something and normally his
bugs don't affect me. M and my wife got quite good
immune systems. But then
London knocked me off enough
to get sick. In the meantime, I've already booked
Milton Keynes. What have I done?
and For the whole two weeks it's been lingering. Even now it's still
lingering. So anyway, the buildup wasn't
necessarily ideal, but, yeah, I
really enjoyed the fact that it wasn't going to be
time focused, that it was going to be about
places really traditional racing in that
sense, and just Just very
different. but mainly just trying to
just freshen up as much as possible.
I had to keep a couple of runs, hidden on Strava
because there are quite obviously marathon buildup runs. and I didn't
want people to know.
>> Charlie: Yes.
>> Tom Hollis: So, yeah, but I mean, aside from all the stuff that
was going on in the background, just trying to be positive and chilled and
sleep well and eat well and look after myself
as much as possible and look forward to the day.
>> Charlie: So was there anything you changed in terms of fueling
wise from London to Milton
Keynes, based on the fact that you were obviously trying to kind of
recover and then did you do another full carb
load and then race day? What did
race day nutrition look like for you?
>> Tom Hollis: Yeah, another form carb load, which
as you know, I take quite seriously. it's
actually not that fun because when you're
really trying to maximise a carb load, it's a
pretty unhealthy diet. it's,
you know, it's a lot of white, beige
carbs, high sugar, low
fibre, low fat, which for a couple
of days you don't feel fantastic, but it's
a means to an end to a good marathon time.
To do that, twice in 15
days was not that, fun, I have to
admit. I'm good at it now. I know
what food take. I know I've got a
fairly good routine with it. So, I didn't actually change
anything. I aimed for about eleven grammes of
carbs per kilogramme of body weight on the.
I'd normally say Friday and Saturday, but this was a Monday marathon
so it was the Saturday and Sunday this time. and
then on the day
itself I kept things pretty similar as well.
So, my morning is
normally either bagels with marmite
or crumpets with marmite, plus,
electrolyte and carb drink that I usually
have on my way to the race.
And I do that for halves and for marathons.
Usually about 80 grammes of carbs in 500
mils. Just kind of sipping that slate over the
last hour and a half of the race.
Hour and a half of the build up towards the race.
>> Charlie: and that's, that's one that you've made yourself, isn't it? Like
ah, Tom Hollis special blend.
>> Tom Hollis: It's not even that. It's not that complicated or special. But yes,
it is one that I make myself and I do that. I make my
own drinks for fueling throughout training. So
it's become second nature now. So to Sunday long
runs in mountain training blocks.
Saturday is always about getting the scales out and making
my own drink for the Sunday morning. a few different
ingredients going in there, but I quite like
being in control of it. and it's cheaper
and it's better for the environment because I get to use my own reusable
bottle each time. So yeah, all things
that are quite appealing to me. and then on the
way round again,
I've converted to using my own liquid carb
mix on the marathon
itself. plus a couple of high
caffeine gels that I take.
First one at halfway, second one about 25
minutes after that. And then for the final
bit of the marathon, I finish whatever of
the drink I should have. Oh, I
didn't have in the first half. It is
not nailed down yet. there are issues with
it. Carrying your own bottle is
annoying. There's no getting around it. so
it's still a work in progress. But I do really like
being in control, absolute control
of having it with me at all times
and being able to just sip regularly rather than
with gels. For example, where you're taking quite large
amounts, then a break, then a large amount, then a
break. The other advantage of drinking
your own carbs is
you can be in control of your hydration at the same time. So
I pretty much don't need to take anything on the
on course
drinks offerings, which again, just helps in terms of
not breaking your momentum and your flow.
but, it's not perfect. Carrying a 500
mil bottle is a lot,
particularly at the start of the race in one hand. So
I'm thinking splitting it into 2250
mil ones, and see how that goes. But
yeah.
>> Charlie: So which gels do
you use? You said you take a high caffeine. Which
ones do you prefer?
>> Tom Hollis: I have always got on well with the SAS products
and I use the sis
beta fuel nootropics ones, so they are
pretty punchy. So they've got 200 milligrammes of caffeine
in? yeah, a lot. And
so, like I said, the first one about halfway,
which for me is about 75 minutes. And then I have
my second one about
25 minutes after that. So around
about 100 minutes in. Yeah.
>> Charlie: Okay. and I guess you've talked about
like, the specifics of, like, it's a bit annoying carrying your own
bottles. You're running for not that, long.
For those of us that are running for an
extra hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, we're going to need
more bottles. So is there,
how would you advise your running clients
or your nutrition clients? Like, what kind of things do you suggest
to them in terms of what people wanting
to bring their own liquid carbs with
them?
>> Tom Hollis: Good question. And I literally just got off a
consultation with a client talking about
exactly that. Ah, because she and I have been exploring her options
for liquid carbs for London
marathon. She's always had, obviously not going
to name her by name. She's always had problems in the park with,
fueling, mid run, particularly marathon
distance. So we try to explore or
making her own? Actually, no, not making her own. She was using
a commercially available, sports product that you
put into water. so lots of them do it again.
Sas do theirs, Morton do theirs.
tailwind do theirs. Loads of them do them
down. So she was using those
and she was using like a hydration pack for
one litres worth and, then carrying
an additional bottle in her hand as
well. So she was
in total going to be having 1250
mils worth of volume on her,
which was two and a half, 80 gramme sachets of carbs.
So about 200 grammes of carbs. she was
aiming to go around about three and a half hours.
but there are other issues which I completely get when
you're out there a bit longer. things get a bit warmer,
which can be a bit grosser. You know, if you're
drinking your own liquid carbs
mix and it's just slowly boiling away
in the sun, that's going to be gross if it's a hot day,
three and a half, 4 hours in. So I do get, that,
but as ever, it's all about
trying these things in training, particularly
on your long weekend runs.
and, not, you really have to try and
replicate all of it. Not just
the amount of carbs, but how it feels sitting
on you, that volume, that weight, how often you need to
drink and so on. And so for some people, they might think,
well, that's definitely, not worth the effort. I will use gels
or I'll use what's on the course. So every person
is slightly different. And obviously some people just do
not get on well with sports nutrition products
at all and are adamant that they need to eat real
foods or something a bit closer to that. I have always
in the past, kind of tried to steer
away from that because I just think if
you can tolerate sports products,
you're going to be far more likely to get closer to
the amount of carbs per hour that would benefit your
performance. But, yes, some people just
really struggle.
>> Charlie: Yeah. Okay, so let's take it
to the main topic of today. I could talk about this all day,
as you and I have talked many times. We
go down a bit of a rabbit hole.
First question, did you take any
like beetroot nitrates in the lead up to either of your two
marathons or have you ever before?
>> Tom Hollis: Yes, and pretty much always
for any race of significance. I have
done, for, I would say the last
at least five years.
>> Charlie: Wow, okay.
>> Tom Hollis: Yeah, pretty much. If I've got them, which is most
of the time, then I will have them
for anything,
a meaningful race where the outcome is really
important to me. You know, if I was doing a summer
series of five k's, for example,
I might not necessarily do it for each
one, because they're not the cheapest
products, necessarily. So
I might be a little bit more sparing in terms of where
I use them. But, yeah, like I say, for any meaningful
race, pretty much always. And yes, that
included London and Milton keys
marathons.
>> Charlie: Okay, so let's go back to kind of basics. Why. Why
are nitrates beneficial? Why do you take them? Someone who's obviously
done a lot of research into sports nutrition and
performance, why are you taking them? And why
should the everyday runner, rather than like
necessarily elite runners, be thinking about taking
them?
>> Tom Hollis: Yeah, and, actually,
before I kind of go into the why,
it's. There's actually, you could say there's more
benefit for the non elite runners than the
elite runners. Interestingly, this
is one, ergogenic, so, performance
enhancing area, or aid,
where it looks a lot of the research
points towards there being more benefit,
potentially, for untrained,
relatively speaking, or recreational
athletes, runners, than towards the
ending end of the spectrum, which is different to a lot of.
>> Charlie: Finally.
>> Tom Hollis: No, finally, for super
shoes, it's often the other way, isn't it? It's thought to be the
fast buyers that you get that, x
percent improvement in performance, but
it's all the other way for Beatru. And
there's, there's some theories as to why that might be,
but just to kind of boil it down to what it is. So
it's all about not the beetroot per
se, but something
called nitrates. So,
dietary nitrates are something that are, ah,
in a few different types of vegetables.
So some dark green,
leafy vegetables, things like
spinach, rocket,
rainbow chard. It's actually in lettuce.
I think it's in kale. I can't remember. When I say
it's in it, I mean in significant amounts to make a
difference. and it's also in Vietroit.
what happens when you eat nitrates
is they're converted to
nitrite in your mouth. I
won't get too technical from a chemistry
perspective, because I think we need to necessarily.
But so the bacteria in your, in
your mouth, so your oral microbiome
converts nitrate to
nitrite, and then the nitrite is
converted to something called nitric oxide. So
nitric oxide or no you sometimes see it, is
known to be a really powerful and useful
molecule that we have naturally in our bodies
anyway. So we, there are two ways to
produce it. One is that, pathway
that I've just talked about, and the other is their
endogenous pathway. So it's naturally done
within the body through a separate
pathway. we know that, nitric
oxide is what's called a
vasodilator. So it
increases the diameter of some blood
vessels to improve, blood flow.
So it can actually be used to treat high blood
pressure, for example, by widening
blood vessels, and can be used therapeutically in
medicine. And is,
But, so that's one role
for it. But it is
thought to have lots of other kind of physiological roles that
we are, we know a bit less about, but, ah, are just starting to
understand. But the important thing of what it
does from a running
perspective, and it's been researched quite
heavily for the last, say,
ten years plus 15 years, even a little
bit longer, is it shown to
improve your running economy or
exercise economy. And what that means is it's,
it's lowering the oxygen
costs of any
exercise that you're doing. In other words,
making you slightly more efficient, at what you're
doing. And that's potentially really
amazing because there are kind of three
markers that are thought to
mainly define your performance at running,
which is your vo two max. So your
maximum oxygen uptake, your
lactate threshold, so the point at which your
lactate starts rising exponentially,
and your running economy or your exercise
economy. And, it was often thought that there's very few
things that can change that third one. but
nitrates is potentially one. So
that's why it's being researched so
heavily. And we're not talking about
massive changes, it's not going to transform
your running, but we're talking
about a percent here or there.
>> Charlie: Yeah. Which, let's face it,
we're all looking for the marginal gains, aren't we?
So.
>> Tom Hollis: Yeah, and I definitely am for
myself as well. So knowing that there is
that potential benefit there, I always
feel like it's something I could do and
therefore something I will do just to kind of try and
tick every box. there's, I
mean, I can talk a little bit more about, the research, if you
like. It just kind of depends. where do you want to go?
>> Charlie: Yeah, I mean, I think. I think
talking more about like how, like, how do
you do it? Like, when we're talking about adding
nitrates into our diet, beetroots in are we talking
about cooking with extra beetroot? So
I know that I saw a lot of people taking shots
of beetroot in the days leading up to the London
marathon, sharing on social media with them, you know, they're
like blood red mouth. So
how do you take the nitrates or take the
beetroot to get the most benefit and, how much?
>> Tom Hollis: Yeah, that's good. Okay. Yeah. So let's keep it really
practical. So, like I mentioned, there are different variations.
Vegetables that naturally have higher nitrate
levels in them. But in order to get
close to the amount of
nitrates, that is evidence based from the
research, to give you the dose effect
needed, you'd need eating really large
amounts of this spinach or
rocket or beetroot or lettuce
and.
>> Charlie: So on, which doesn't go well with a car blade.
>> Tom Hollis: Exactly. Exactly right. So on a day to day
basis, if you've got healthy, fairly balanced diet,
then you might be including some or lots of these things.
Anyway, and I try to, but in
that two day period with low
fibre, particularly advice leading into
a race, particularly a marathon, it doesn't really tell you
well because you're. Yeah, exactly
right. So you're not telling to have a load of dark
green, leafy veggies during that period,
which is where things like beetroot
shots come in because, well,
a, they are the most heavily researched form
of nitrates because it's a way of controlling the amount
that you're taking because it's a commercially available
product. but also they are the most practical
way to get this dose in. So, the
dose that I'm talking about is about 300 to 400
milligrammes of, of nitrate. You can get that, in
about 500 mils of
beetroot juice itself. Now that's
a lot of beetroot juice.
But so what is now more
practical is in the last few years, plus,
you've been able to get the concentrated beetroot shots
that you've been talking about. And that is what most people
will use. And each one of those shots will
have one kind of evidence based
dose of nitrate that, is
likely to have a
very small impact on
your running economy and therefore potentially
performance. M.
There is some evidence
that taking it, ah, chronically, that is
for a few days, up to six days before the
race, has, some additional
benefit
beyond race, morning or pre
race. But that's,
in my opinion, not
conclusive. So again, if you
want to absolutely tick every box, then you could do
that by taking it regularly in the days leading into
the event. and there's some evidence that your
muscles act as a
nitrate reservoir, so you do store some of
it. But, from my reading, and I've done a literature
review on this when I did my sports nutrition postgrad
a few years ago and I've checked and
I don't believe there's anything to kind of contradict this recently,
really. It's all about your pre, if you have to
prioritise it, it would be your pre race dose
of nitrates and you want that to be
at least an hour and a half before
your race. So somewhere between about 3 hours before
and an hour and a half before, in
order for that pathway that I talked about to have taken
effect. Whilst I think of it, because it
is an important, quite weird thing to mention.
M I mentioned about the oral microbiome having
an impact. So the bacteria being
key to that first, conversion. So
you don't want to have a really clean
mouth when this is happening. So
there were studies to show that if you had
an antibacterial mouthwash, for
example, during or
shortly after, that process of taking the
nitrates, it would disrupt it significantly and your
levels of nitric oxide would not raise to anywhere near the same
extent. So glue is a bit gross, which you
don't have a clean mouth, which unfortunately
isn't necessarily what you want because you, you kind of feel
like you do want to clean your mouth because you've just taken this
bright red thing that's going to stay in your mouth for
hours, or your tongue at least.
But unfortunately you kind of need to link it there. I've
tried to look for how
long you need to not have
cleaned your mouth before and after. And I don't
like clear answer on that, unfortunately.
So I tend to kind of,
me personally brush my teeth,
etcetera, early on marathon
day, maybe 4 hours
out, something like that, depending on time,
and then maybe have breakfast and a cup of tea and
blah, blah, blah. and then maybe an hour after that,
then I would do the beetroot
shot, and in between that
and starting the race, I wouldn't be taking any chewing gum, and
obviously wouldn't be brushing my teeth or mouthwash or anything like
that.
>> Charlie: But is it okay, do you think, to kind of just swill
your mouth out with water so that you get rid of that flood red
teeth look, or are you personally trying to kind of
avoid that and you just don't smile at anyone on the way to the
race and hope that the race photos turn out
okay.
>> Tom Hollis: As far as I'm aware, then I don't think water would
change that at all. I don't think it would make a significant change. Your
bacteria, it's where you're more kind
of aggressively, intentionally
cleaning your. That it makes a difference. That's my
understanding, anyway.
>> Charlie: Interesting. Okay. And so that's pre
race. I've heard of some people using
them during the race, or sterka, have just come out
with a gel that contains 350 milligrammes
of nitrates within their, carb gel. So is
there benefits, especially for maybe people that are running
longer, as in not longer distance, but running for a
longer period of time? Is there a benefit for them
of taking it during the race?
>> Tom Hollis: Possibly. I've not seen anything
conclusive in research to say that
there should be. but it's something that I've
considered myself as well, because, like we talked about at
the start here, because I'll make my own
fuel for marathons, there's the potential
there to add in nitrates in one
form or another. but
I've decided not to. And also, I guess if you're adding in the
beetroot shots in your drink,
if you get spinaches, that could get quite
messy, potentially. anyway, but
I guess if you're a four hour
plus marathon, then it could
make some sense that you're getting the benefit
of that, later in the race. But
the half life. Sorry.
The raised nitric oxide levels
in the blood, and in the
muscles, to my understanding, it's not like it comes
up and then comes down really quickly. It comes
up and stays there for a fair few
hours. So it's.
There's no need for my understanding
to be taking it mid race rather than before. I could be wrong,
but not from whatever it.
>> Charlie: Okay, interesting. So I guess people
could, if they are, you could use it as the
gel if they're doing something like a five k, and then at least
you've got the carbs, but you want it an hour and a half ish
before the race. So
have it as your kind of pre run, five k
snack on the way to the race.
I might have to do some testing with that, but, you mentioned that
you used.
>> Tom Hollis: I just won that. Sorry to interrupt you, but I think.
>> Charlie: No, don't worry.
>> Tom Hollis: They're confused with nitrates as well, because
the, other, I guess, most commonly researched
ergogenic aid from a m nutrition
perspective is caffeine. And you
notice the impact of caffeine rather, right. You feel
stimulated, you feel more alert.
There is a tangible impact on how you feel.
And so some people assume
that nitrates, beetroot shots, whatever,
aren't working in that commerce because they don't
feel anything. But you won't. It's not like caffeine where
you get that kind of stimulated effect. It's a more
subtle effect that hopefully will benefit your
performance but you won't notice why. I just
want to point out.
>> Charlie: Okay, good to know. Because I feel like yeah you kind of,
especially if you're spending some money on it, you want to feel the bang for your
buck. But hopefully it translates
to improved performance times just while I'm on
that. So if anyone does want to
try, beat it. You can save 10% on x
miles with the code cookeatrun ten.
They are the one stop shop for all your fueling
needs including pre, post and mid race nutrition.
So stock up on those essentials and if you want to give
beta a try, this is the place to buy it.
>> Tom Hollis: Just on that note. Actually I'm not filled with beta
at all, but they are products that I've generally used,
in fact exclusively used for nitrates over the
years. And some people don't get on with the
shots because they find it just too
intense from a flavour perspective. too
earthy, just too much so they
have Laura recently brought out like a
crystals option. So they're a
bit more versatile in how you take them. So you could have them with
your porridge or with some yoghurt or
even in a salad or something like that. So it's the same
dose being detected slightly differently.
>> Charlie: Yeah I've seen those actually. They have those, the shot
and a more a ah, bigger like bottle that. Then
if you're doing the kind of build up that you can then use,
pour out your own 70 mils or whatever you need.
And they've got all of those on xml so go and cheque it out. I'll leave a
link in the description box so that everyone
can have a look. so we've talked a little bit about
kind of dosage when to do it, but
would you ever use these for your
like training runs? Like the ones that
are like these are a key training run or
is it just for race day for you?
>> Tom Hollis: I think if I'm being completely honest, if
money was no object, I might use
them a bit more in training because there is benefit
there. So a lot
of the evidence points towards it
being most effective for kind of
sub maximal training.
So not when you're absolutely,
exhausting yourself to the limit.
which in my interpretation might
be of benefit to the marathon because for a lot
of the marathon you are running out sub maximal
effort. there is
more m recently evidence to
show that it could be beneficial for shorter
interval and higher intensity work.
but yeah, more traditionally it's been associated with that
sub maximal effort. And there is
potential benefit there in terms of using it for training
because if that oxygen cost of that
training session is lower,
then it's going to feel a bit easier. Your
recovery might be slightly improved, which
in turn might be a confidence boost, etcetera. And
also, yet again, practising things
for race day that you wouldn't want to leave for
race day itself. So I
probably would use them a little bit more
regularly in training, if, like I
said, if price wasn't a factor. but
as it is, it tends to be perhaps
once or twice a training block. I will use them for training.
Yeah.
>> Charlie: And so you mentioned sort of the recovery aspect
of like if it feels easier if you're not having to exert yourself so
much to hit the paces necessarily.
And they also beta have a product that's
designed for recovery or they
post it as recovery, which has cherry juice
with it. Is that something you've tried? How does that
work? Is there benefits to taking nitrates for
recovery? Or is it more the cherry juice that they're
using there for the recovery aspect?
>> Tom Hollis: I haven't tried it and, I would love to at some
point. but the tart cherry
juice thing has been around again for a few years
as being powerful in terms
of recovery. But you do need to be quite
clever in terms of what when you use it. Because,
if you're kind of
reducing inflammation, and
oxidation from training
too often, then you can actually be blunting the
adaptation that you want from that
training. But I do know that it's used
quite a lot at elite level and can
be beneficial for sleep as well. So sleep quality, which
is something that we're all striving for.
but no, I've not used that product. And
I also. I'm not
totally. No, I don't really know about
nitrate and its role in recovery or the
composition of the tea, I'm afraid.
>> Charlie: No problem. I just. I'm interested. I keep getting given
the sleepy girl, cocktail on
instagram, TikTok, which is like
tart, cherry juice, magnesium and
I think sparkling water or something. That's supposed to
be the, you know, the key to sleeping well. And I haven't
tried it yet, but I'm actually quite tempted.
Are there any downsides other than we've mentioned
cost to taking the nitrates of the
beetroot shots?
>> Tom Hollis: well, in terms of side effects,
no, not really. So, apart from
the one that most people will have
experienced, which is,
discolouration of
who and we, for once.
>> Charlie: And I was wondering how you're gonna.
>> Tom Hollis: Say here, but let's just go with pooh. And
we're both new parents, so
that's kind of appropriate. And, which can be
pretty alarming, actually, when you
do it for the first time.
Not everyone gets it to the same extent, actually,
but most people do. And, sometimes you
can forget that you've. That you've taken it.
>> Charlie: Yeah. Then you're guilty of
that.
>> Tom Hollis: Okay. That's what's going on here. Yeah, I'm not. I
haven't. I'm not bleeding from
tindamo. It can be
quite alarming. But, it's obviously not, you
know, that's not damaging at all. It's just a sign of your body
processing it. but beyond that, ah,
in a lot of the literature and the literature review
that I did back in the day, there are
basically no side effects or in effects to
be concerned of.
>> Charlie: Great. So basically, if you're
interested, give it a try. Test it in training.
>> Charlie: Yeah.
>> Charlie: And then use it for race day.
>> Tom Hollis: It is very, very low risk.
you know, it may benefit you. You may feel that it doesn't
benefit you. It is 100%
legal. It is. You know,
the beetroots and the vegetables that it's naturally found in
are healthy anyway. So they're good additions to your.
To your diet and to your overall health. and although I
say, you know, price is a potential barrier in terms
of things that you can do,
those small one percenters
to improve your training, it's pretty low cost compared
to some of the other things. Super shoes and so on.
>> Charlie: Yeah. And cook, eat, run, ten
gives you a 10% discount. So if you are interested in trying
it, use that on x miles and, let us know how you
get on. Well, Tom, thanks so
much for joining me today. Where can people find you if they want
to follow you on Instagram, Strava, or work with you
for run or nutrition coaching?
>> Tom Hollis: So, Maury, let's start with my
Instagram, which is plant runner
Rd, which is where I am
moderately active on. trying to go a bit more,
but, could definitely go for improvement there.
Strava is just Tom Horace. and
then my website is
tomhorrishealth.com m
which is probably first pull of cord if you're
interested in coaching and
other nutrition services that I provide.
And actually if you wanted to look at this topic in
particular, I've got a blog on there which if you scroll
back a few pages, I did three separate
consecutive blogs on nitrates for
endurance running.
>> Charlie: I will link to all of that in the show notes so that people can get
directly, direct access to you, including the
Strava with the hidden runs. Are you going to share them now?
>> Tom Hollis: Yeah, maybe.
>> Charlie: So. Jonathan, thank you so much for joining me on the
podcast today. I'm so
excited to learn a little bit more about
Beatit and the company, the products. Can we
start a little bit with how and why beat it was
formed?
>> Charlie: Yeah, of course. So Beetit is part of James white
drinks. So we're based up in Suffolk
and we've been going since 1986,
actually. The company, we've been pressing beetroot
since 2005, so quite a long time.
And really, the whole sort of beat
it in the sense of a sports brand really
came about, from the research. So it was
researchers up in Scandinavia, back in
2006, they found that nitrate
helped to increase nitric oxide production in the
body, that helped to lower high blood
pressure and they were looking to try and find a natural
source of it, basically. So at the time they're using
things like nitrate salts, potassium salts and things like that.
So at the time we were the only sort of beetroot
pressing company, so in the UK. So they contacted
us. We said, yeah, that's fine. We didn't have much
expectations about, you know, what was going to be useful
or what they find. and yeah, they did find
that helped to lower high blood pressure. In
2009, some researchers down in the University
of ex today sort of thought, well, maybe that might
help in athletic performance. We can help improve blood
flow and oxygen around the body. So that's when
they started to investigate the effects of beetroot juice on
sports and endurance performance. And then, in
2011, we sort of rebranded then, so
from beat it to beat it sport because we kind of followed the
research, really. so yeah, that's kind of where it all started.
And since then, it's sort of snowboard really, with a lot
of new papers that have come out, a lot of new applications
that's been found in different sporting types as well. So,
it's been an interesting journey and it's an interesting one. Now there's
this still lots of research that's coming out today. So.
>> Charlie: So were you just pressing beet for
beetroot juice as a. Just, a drink or to include
in some of your other drinks? Anyway. And then it just so
happens that it is an amazing product for
athletes and general health.
>> Charlie: Yeah, so we. I mean, James White, we've always been pressing fruits and
vegetables. So we do all sorts of natural
juices. We have, a, product called Big Tom, which is
a spice tomato mix. We do.
>> Charlie: I've drunk many of those over the years.
>> Charlie: Yeah. So any sort of fruit and veg, we
try to press it. We make it into a product. So it came
quite naturally to us. and obviously a lot of the beets are, grown in Cambridge, which
is not far away from us in Ipswich. So,
yeah, at the start we just thought it'd be
interesting to press, I guess press a beetroot juice, as
a healthy drink. We also do a carrot juice as well. So we're
a big fan of keeping nature quite simple, you know, not adding
anything else in. so, yeah, we were already kind of
sort of pressing it. So it's quite easy for us to supply
the researchers in the beginning.
>> Charlie: So it's kind of. Yeah, as you say, it's sort of snowboard from there.
So we've talked kind of a
little bit about in this episode about runners
using it. But do you work with a range of athletes to, improve?
Because I guess it's not just running where you can,
you want kind of effort and exertion levels
to be lowered.
>> Charlie: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I
guess the kind of basis of our consumers
are endurance based. So whether that's on the bike or
runners, that's because that's where the research sort of started
from, helping to delay the onset
of exhaustion. So. And then, it
was about 2015, 2016, some
researchers looked at what happens to, improving
things like intermittent sprinting and, reaction time
and strength and force production. So once
they found that out, a lot of
sports nutritionist dietitians that work with these
professional teams, they then contacted us because they were looking
at using the products for a different
basis. So we supply a lot of
teams, in the states, a lot of NFL
teams, NCAA d one teams, NBA
teams. So I guess the products are applicable to
quite a wide range of sports now. and there's a lot of evidence
now it's not only just insurance, but
also how it can help with things like team sports and
independent sprinting and things like that. So
yeah, quite a wide range, but for different, different
outcomes, I suppose. Different, different applications.
>> Charlie: Yeah, I hadn't even thought about it. That side. Obviously,
we're very focused on kind of
nutrition for running and cycling,
with x miles and with myself being a runner. So, yeah,
that's interesting. And do you get to go over and watch any of the
games or are you strictly, send the supplies and hope
for the best?
>> Charlie: I'd love to. yeah, they're usually very, very busy people, so
I, don't get time to go out there. I've been out to the states, but
not to see any sport. But, yeah, I'd love to experience it. I think,
it's a bit of a crate.
>> Charlie: You need a research trip, see how they're putting it into
action.
>> Charlie: Yeah, why not?
>> Charlie: So that's kind of the elite side of it. How
would you, or how does b six sport
suggest that the everyday runner
cyclist trying to improve their own personal performance use
the products?
>> Charlie: Yeah, so I guess the kind of dosing principle remains the
same. what the researchers found is that, the
higher trained you are, the
less effects you'll get from it. and it's usually
down to, I guess, the training status. So if you're an elite
athlete, you might get a one or 2% improvement.
I guess the room for improvement, or the ceiling is a
lot, lower in the sense
that, they're already quite close to their maximum, whereas for
the average person like myself, who's not sort of highly
trained, I guess, the room for improvement is
greater. and I think it's a lot of these elite athletes may already
have a diet that's rich in nitrate already. Perhaps they might
already be quite tuned to producing nitric oxide
already as well. So, yeah, and that's what the research has shown.
So the lower the trains you are, the chances are, the higher
the benefits that you're going to get. but yeah, the dosing is still
the same, so you still use it in the days leading up to the race.
and yeah, like I said before, there's a lot of research
every year that's coming up that increases our understanding of it.
So, yeah, that just helps
for the kind of general public, I guess, just to
understand how, how nitrate can
benefit their performance. And, the other is the same, whether you're
elites or non elites, you know, there's still
been, you know, benefit that can, that can help you so
yeah.
>> Charlie: So how many bottles do you think you need if you've not trained for a
marathon and you need to be performing on race
day?
>> Charlie: Yeah, I mean, I recommend taking it in training
so there aren't any side effects.
>> Charlie: Okay.
>> Tom Hollis: Yeah.
>> Charlie: Yeah.
>> Charlie: It does turn your weeping.
>> Charlie: Yeah.
>> Charlie: Right. So you can't get around that. But, it's just a
juice. You know, we don't have any fibre in there. So people often get a bit
concerned about how it's going to sit in the stomach with the products.
You're taking it in the days before, you can take it any time of the day.
By doing this, you're basically sort of banking up the
nitrate in the muscles. So they found out, a couple of years ago that
nitrate gets stored in the muscle. So similar to how we
carb load before a race, you want to sort of load up
the stores of nitrate. So when you start to run the
marathon, you're not only using what you have in your bloodstream,
but your body will draw it from the stores as well.
>> Charlie: Okay.
>> Charlie: So that, that's, I guess, one reason why. Why
we preload on it. And, yeah, it's also because
the nitrate in the body helps. It's been shown to
cause more. It takes time, I guess, for the adaptations,
to occur rather, than just having it sort of on the day off.
You, do get a benefit taking it on the delve, but
the research has shown. Yeah, there's much, much
more sort, of pronounced benefits, I guess if you take
it over about six days, leading up to the race.
So, yeah, one or two shots a day.
>> Charlie: Yeah. And would you recommend people use it
in training just to text sort of how it
feels and also to get those benefits maybe before their long run or
before a hard workout in the weeks leading up to
the marathon. So that then the pink wee and
the. And the taste, I guess, is not such
a shock on race week.
>> Charlie: Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, like with anything, always trout training
first. We don't get any sort of negative
feedback. like I say, it's been used by over
300 different, studies now as well. So it's
literally thousands of athletes. and the only side effect is it does
to any wheat pink. So. But like with everybody, everyone's
different. You know, they haven't been tested in the lab. So, you know, make sure
you try it yourself. and, yeah, I guess it's
just getting you to something new that's part of a routine. But because you're having
it in the days before, any time of the day, even on the day of
the race, you've taken about 2 hours before. So by the
time you start to run, you would
have fully digested it anyway. And it's only a 70 mil volume, so
it's not like a pint's worth that you've got to choke through,
which is what you would have done if we didn't sort of develop
the product back in 2011, into concentrated
shots. yeah, definitely trout training. like I say, it's
something which you kind of. It's more of a bolt on to what you're
already doing. So some people say, oh, do I still need
to take gels? Do I still need to worry about my hydration? I mean, yes, you
do. Obviously, you need your energy still.
This, beetroot juice just helps you to be more efficient with the energy
that you are consuming. So it sort of lowers
the energy costs of exercise, basically. So still stick to
everything else you're doing. Just an extra bolt
on. That's got a lot of research evidence behind it. Yeah. To help you.
>> Charlie: So it's kind of like the nutrition equivalent of a supershoe.
>> Charlie: Yeah. I mean, the percentage improvements are quite similar, actually.
Yeah. So on average, on endurance,
so time taken to reach exhaustion,
that's usually what they measure on. It varies from around
about five to 7% improvement in the time
taken to reach exhaustion. So, And some
people say, yeah, would I feel it? It's not like
caffeine. It's not like a stimulant where you feel, you know, like elated. It's
something which I guess you'd only kind of feel it
if you know what, you'd usually start to feel
fatigued on a run or a race. You might feel it then that you've
got a bit more gas in the tank to keep going, because that's,
that's effectively what the shots do. They enable you to
run a little bit further into your week's exhaustion because you're
more efficient with the fuel that you've got. so, yeah, it's
no, no caffeine, because a lot of people are sort of ordering
a caffeine thing. So it's not, it's not a stimulant, but,
>> Tom Hollis: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Charlie: That's, that's the nice thing about it, really. It's just all
natural.
>> Charlie: And so you've got the 70 millilitres that are kind of the
pre packaged. You've also got some ones that are mixed with
cherry juice.
So what are those ones. How are they different from the ones that
are just kind of standalone beet
charts?
>> Charlie: Yeah, so the sour cherry, it is a mixture. So we've
got, it's roughly half and half. So sour cherry
is 58% and the beetroot is 42%.
So what we've done is we've mixed the two
concentrates, sour cherry and beetroot. They're
both known to be rich in antioxidants.
and then there's a lot of research that's shown that
antioxidants such as sour cherry can help
lower sort, of muscle soreness or the symptoms of
that after a run. And it does that by
lowering the, the inflammation that you get after
exercise. So,
yeah, it's very different. Obviously, it does have a bit of
nitrate in from the beetroot that's in there. It's not as much as you would
have from the beetroot shop, but it's all really about
the combination of antioxidants that you get, from a
mixture, and it's also ready to drink as well. So you don't have to worry about
pouring out, mixing. You can just quickly shot
it back.
>> Charlie: And still taking that before
or. Because often with the cherry juice, it's
recommended to have that afterwards. So it's kind of like you take it before your
long run or your marathon, and then you're still going to get
the benefits from the cherry juice afterwards.
>> Charlie: Yeah. So we did actually initially recommend having it just
after the, exercise or race, but then we had a lot
of feedback from some professors in the sort of
world of sour cherry, I guess, and they were saying that really at
the moment, the consensus is that there's more benefits if
you were to take it before and
afterwards. So they kind of coined the term, pre
covering, which is, even though it's a recovery product, you have
to start before. So. And the reason being,
they think, is because just, by taking it afterwards, it's kind
of too late, so the damage is done, and you're trying to sort of get it in
once the damage has been caused. Whereas if you can get the antioxidants
in sort of pre, then your
body sort of has it there to use it when it
needs to, I suppose so. So we, we've used a dosing
where we do, sort of two or three days before and
then two or three days afterwards. So it's something which is sort of
dose before and dose afterwards. Initially, we didn't want
to do that because it kind of crosses over the beach,
at sports as well. but we
were kind of always led by the science and, when we are told by
professors what they think it should be done in the area, which
they are, the experts in, we'd be silly to ignore that.
So yeah, we've taken it on board. and yeah, that's the kind of
recommended way to do it.
>> Charlie: So that's one of the other products. You've also got the big
bottles of the concentrate
and then are they crystals? They kind
of the powder, how does that
work?
>> Charlie: Yeah, so the crystals are, 100% beetroot juice.
So they're just vacuum dried
basically, and then it's milled, so it's 100%
natural. The reason why we made that product is
because a lot of people understand the benefits of beetroot,
but they either don't like the taste or they don't like the idea of
what it's going to taste like. It's often the latter. People have an
idea of what it's going to be. so we wanted to have a product
which enabled people to sort of
benefit from beetroot,
but is a bit more palatable.
So the crystals are great for like sprinkling over things like
breakfast cereals, porridge, oats. I personally have it mixed in with
yoghurt. You just get the natural sweetness of beetroot, which
is great. So you don't get the oathy taste that you get from the liquid form
and yeah, ah, it's just a bit more versatile. We had some ultra
runners who are really keen on it because they're having a
top up dose of nitrate mid, you know,
100k or whatever, they're running these crazy distances.
And rather than carrying a shot, which is obviously a little bit more weight, but
to little bit bulkier, they can just put a little sachet
down in their pocket and they can add it to their drink at
feed station. So, and if people are travelling abroad
as well, it's lightweight, so yeah, I guess it's
the same purpose, but it's just another way of
getting the nitrates in. If the shots are a bit too intense for you.
>> Charlie: Yeah, I guess for travelling, people travelling with hand luggage only,
that's a, you know, if they're trying to take a couple of shots, it's a lot of their
liquid. you know that you're only allowed to take this little bag,
so you don't want to waste the space necessarily, or not
waste it, but you know, use a lot of your space with.
>> Charlie: It's a lot of beetroot to drink all in one go if you don't
have in it.
>> Charlie: Yeah. Or an expensive mistake if you if you get caught.
>> Charlie: Yeah, they should be okay. It's around 100 mil, but like you say, it is still
something you got to try and fit in there, in.
>> Charlie: The bags, but yeah, and there's big debate over
whether gels are liquid or not when you're going through those
sorts of things, so.
>> Charlie: Yeah, true.
>> Charlie: Sounds like travelling, that could be a really
good option for people to use the crystals.
yeah, definitely.
>> Charlie: Most people who are having
maybe breakfast at the hotel, a lot of people have porridge at the hotel
or something. You can just, you know, quickly rip open the
sachet and mix it in or have it with the yoghurt
if that's your thing. So, yeah, it's just a bit more versatile, I
guess, which hopefully gets more people
sort of on board with a brand.
>> Charlie: and so what sets beat it sport apart from
other kind of brands or products that
are boasting the fact that they've contained nitrates for
performance?
>> Charlie: Yeah. So I think the key thing, well there's a number of things
really, but the most important thing with
beetroot or any sort of nitrate related product
is how much nitrate is
in a serving and is it enough to
cause a performance benefit and if it is, is it
consistent batch to batch? So one thing that we found very
early on was that nitrate varies from beets you
get in the garden, in the supermarket to even our regular juice that
we do. So when we gave it to the researchers, they just
found that it fluctuated all over the place and it's really hard for
them to do robust research when you've got
inconsistencies like that. So we
took a lot of time to get it right. we
use sort of high nitrate beetroot, I guess,
and then we standardise every batch. So every
shot has got, at least 400 milligrammes of
nitrate in. So I guess there
are many competitors out there, obviously in the UK,
elsewhere in the world as well. But we actually test
every single competitor product when it is launched, to
see how much nitrate is in there. And does it stack up to what they
claim? We don't release these to the public
because, I think we'll probably get.
>> Charlie: A lot of legal, don't want to.
>> Charlie: Get sued, especially in the states, but, we've been quite
shocked actually. There's some products out there in the states that are claiming
400 milligrammes. they've got less than
ten. So it shows that people
are often misled, which is quite frustrating for
us because that's where a lot of the research and development
came. From our perspective, we wanted to make sure that we
were standardising it. another thing is that we
keep it literally 100% natural. So there's only
two ingredients in our shots. If you look at other nitrate
products, you'll probably see a handful of ingredients.
A lot of them aren't natural, they're
preservatives. so we keep it really clean, really natural. We're
in form sport as well, so any athlete has that
assurance. and we're also the product that's been used
by all the research. So any beetroot related
research that's been done over the last sort of 15
years, about 90% of them have used our
product. So they know that our product has actually been
tested. we haven't funded any research
so we're just the ones
that can provide the researchers with a product that has a standardised
dose. And we do a placebo shot as well
which has no nitrate. So they can do a
crossover, double blind study. So
that's why they use us. they trust us. So
a lot of these dietitians and the nutritionists,
that's why they come to us, because they read about the research, they'll
see that they used our products and they come to us. So
I guess we're the most credible, in
that sense that we are actually tested. I don't
think there's many products out there that's probably tested as much as
us. and yeah we're quite sort of proud of that. I think
it's is something which sets us apart from the rest. Yeah,
for sure.
>> Charlie: Great. And if people want to find out more about the
products, where can they go other than x
miles which have the product? And we have got 10% off
code for listeners with the product, the
code cook, eat, run ten which will save across
xmls including the Beatit sport products.
But yeah, where can people go to find more?
>> Charlie: Yeah, great. I mean xmiles is a great resource, as
well. We have our own website, beatitude.com, where we have
info on there. we have our own Instagram page
where we post infographics, information,
videos, content. If there's something where
if someone has a question that we can't answer online, just drop
us an email, contact us on our website. We've got
things like brochures, booklets we can send out as a
PDF always happy to jump on a call as
well. We often speak to athletes who
have certain events where they want some bespoke
advice. If it's back to back and even how do I
dose? So, yeah, just reach out to us directly
or look on our website. That's probably the best way.
Fab.
>> Charlie: well, thank you so much. It was so interesting. I've actually got a
box here ready in front of me to test
out as part of my training to see
how I get on in training and then hopefully use them for Berlin Marathon
at the end of the summer.
>> Charlie: Oh, brilliant. Brilliant. It's in, is it? September Berlin, isn't it?
Yeah, no, it's been a pleasure.
>> Charlie: Yeah, it'll come around soon, but yeah, yeah.
>> Charlie: It's been, a pleasure chatting with you and hope you go well
with the products that's. Now you get on.
>> Charlie: Will do. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of the
Cook Eat Run podcast with xmls. Don't forget
to get all of your nutrition products from xmls,
the one stop store for your nutritional needs. Try out
some new gels. Try out the beat it sport range. I know that
I've got literally a box sitting right in front of me and I can't
wait to try it out. Next week's
episode is with Jamie. Jamie running
on Instagram and we are doing a deep dive into
Sterka products. I'm talking about his favourites. I've
ordered some products for me to try, so don't forget to join us
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