Welcome to the Big Careers Small Children Podcast. My name is Verena Hefti. I believe that no one should have to choose between becoming a CEO and enjoying their young children for much too long. Amazing people like I'm sure you listening right now have found themselves stuck on the career ladder when they have children and that leads to gender inequality in senior leadership because because those people don't progress to senior leadership and the same stale, often male middle class people leading our organizations. We must change this together and I hope that many of you listening right now will progress to the most senior leadership roles that you like where you can make the decisions that make our world a better place. Outside of the podcast, I am the CEO and founder of the Social enterprise Leaders Plus. We exist to help working parents progress their careers to senior leadership in a way that works for you and for your families. We have free events and resources on leadersplus.org where you can download helpful toolkits such as on returning from maternity leave, share parental leave, securing a promotion, dealing with workload challenges, or managing as a dual career couple. We also have an award winning fellowship. Community which is global for working parents who have big dreams for their careers but don't want to sacrifice their family. You'll join an absolutely wonderful group of. People, a very tight knit, supportive group. Of parents who have your back. Together. You'll explore what your career aspirations are. And you'll get advice from senior leaders who are also working parents about how. To achieve those aspirations. You'll get new ideas to combine your. Hopes for your careers with your hope. For your family and you are supported by people who are experiencing what you're experiencing yourself. I'm really delighted that a larger majority. Of our fellows have made tangible changes following the program, be that becoming more senior in their roles, working shorter hours, having better flexible working arrangement. They always impress me so much with the courage that they instill in each. Other to do what is right for. Them without apologizing for having a family. Or apologizing for wanting that top job. Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship. Today I'm chatting to Steph Hind who is co CEO and co founder of the employee wellbeing platform HICA. We talk about how she learned from her really tough experience of first maternity leave where initially she didn't take any leave, and how she changed her approach and started setting boundaries when she had a second child. We talk about managing well, being in a high pressure environment, especially when you have a large team of people dependent on you. And we talk about how she approaches and views being a CEO with children in tow. I really enjoyed the conversation. She was so energizing and I hope you find the same.

Thank you for having me, Verena. I'm really excited to be on the podcast. My name is Steph Hind. I'm one of the co founders of hica, an employee benefit platform that helps support companies and employees so they can perform their best. I run that company with my husband and co founder Alex, and we've got a three year old and a one year old between us. So a young family which is exciting and manic.

So you've definitely chosen to spend your life, you know, in quite an intense way, being a founder and a leader, a CEO of this organization, and then also with very young kids. What did you used to. So you can probably still remember what you thought about being a parent and a CEO that you've changed your mind on. What did you used to believe that you don't believe anymore? Combining a big career with young children.

Yeah, I mean, to be honest, Lili at first was a little surprise, which a brilliant, fantastic surprise. But I kind of, it sounds really naive now, but I went through the whole pregnancy with her obviously running Heka, but not really thinking about what it would be like to have a baby. I was the first in my friendship group to have a baby. It just didn't really ever occur to me what it would actually be like. And I think that was probably because I thought it would just flow normally, like you'd have a kid but you'd be able to carry on working. There'd be lots of juggling, but you'd make it happen. And I think what I probably didn't account for is that your whole mind completely shifts all of a sudden. It's not just like actually the tasks that are required around a newborn and, you know, as they grow, but actually just like your whole outlook on life changes and your priorities. Whereas everybody loves to say, don't they, that your business is your baby, but then when have a baby, your business can't be your baby. So yeah, I think probably not a great deal of thought actually went into what it was going to be like to manage the two.

And how do you manage it now practically, there's this image of entrepreneurs and CEOs working all hours in the day. How do you do it?

So with a lot of logistical planning, I literally have like my calendar, the kids calendar, and we just basically break it up. So there's a mixture of nursery, preschool, but then also we're lucky enough that we've got a nanny who comes to our house and so that that breaks it up nicely. So this morning, for example, she comes 7am to 11am, which is really great for me because I love working that time. You know, fresh in the morning, you've got no distractions, nobody's emailing you or sending you slack messages and you can just kind of get what you need to get done. But then other days we obviously juggle that with a nursery and preschool. And I also now I'm only back to work three days a week. That spread over four days. But yeah, just in terms of the actual amount of hours and I find that that balance actually means that I work better at work because I don't feel like I'm cutting down time with the kids and I haven't got any of that classic mum guilt. So it's not been. It wasn't an instant have kids set this amazing schedule and it works and I'm sure there'll always be tweaks to it, but yeah, I think it's trying to find the times that work for you and balance that with how much time you can spend with your kids.

And how do you deal with that with the rest of your team. Do you all work flexibly?

We don't all work flexibly, albeit we've had a couple of people who've come back from maternity leave and they actually are working flexibly. So in terms of they're working reduced hours, days. But we don't have kind of core. This is when you have to be in from eight to six. We have core hours in that we'd like people to be in between 10 to 3. So obviously if you're trying to plan meetings, but also that's. We work hybrid most of the time, so it's quite flexible in terms of we've got somebody who's working from South Africa, whether she's just going there on a long trip. We are quite flexible ourselves at work and I think that's part of our own experience of obviously having kids, but also like the ethos of Heka, And that employees are people too. And so you need to be able to adapt around their schedules in order for it to work for everyone.

It's really interesting when you talk about, sorry, going completely off track, but it's quite interesting how you talk about well being and often in organizations that are fast growing. And you. Did you take investment as well or you didn't.

Yes, we took three. Done three rounds of investment.

Yeah. So there's a lot of pressure on the people who gave you the money, they want to see an interest. I'm assuming Leaders plus is a social enterprise. We've never taken investment, but I'm hearing some horror stories. Hopefully they're not true for you at all. I'm just thinking how do you know when enough is enough and when you have high expectations of yourself and of the team, but also you want to prioritize that well being like realistically, how do you do that in one of the most high pressure environments that you can find, which is a fast growing investment driven organization?

Yeah, I'm guessing a bit maybe like the kids logistical calendars that you don't get to it overnight. I think people seem to think that well being and I really don't actually like the term wellbeing that much because it's become so washy. But if you say health, the relationship between health, like individuals health and company's growth are so interconnected that it completely makes sense to look after your own health, but your employees health as well. So that if your employees are feeling low, then that company growth is going to struggle. Whereas actually if you could make your employees feel well and that they can live and perform at the best that they can be, then that business is going to be elevated in terms of culture, in terms of output. So I think that sure, it can be hard to say, okay, no, I'm going to shut the laptop and I'm not going to think about that anymore. Like we're not robots, you can't just instantly switch off. But it's about creating time and structure and an outlet for yourself and your team that actually wellbeing can be structured. It might be you do a pottery class or you go for a run or you just know, okay, I've got healthy food in the fridge waiting for me. Well- being health can be drawn up in loads of different ways and outlets like that. And I think we did take investment and we've done three rounds of investment. But actually from a business perspective we made the decision that we'd go for profitability. So we're not that far off definitely this year, maybe this quarter or the next quarter that we hit that profitability. And so although that there is that external pressure, we've actually alleviated that and made that decision ourselves that we didn't want to be on this kind of hockey curve of a growth where we had to give away, keep giving away more and more of the company and ultimately dilute our shares but also dilute how we wanted to run a business. So yeah, wellbeing, is what Heka does, But it's also so integral to how we run on a day to day basis which is a really long winded way. Sorry. Of answering what you said.

I don't know if I'm in awe. Or just absolutely shocked that you talk so eloquently about well being with having a one year old and a three year old. Realistically is it possible to. I mean I know you don't like well being but I guess to feel good and how do you do it? I know it's different for everyone but how do you make sure that you still have some joy in life?

Yeah. With a one year old and a Three year old I think it can be tricky and I don't want to sound like one of these kind of, you know, you can. It's a utopian picture of well being and I've got this one year old and three year old and we only ever eat organic and that it. Because it's not realistic but I think it's about making like healthy choices. For example, last night I got woken up three times. Once by the dog, once by each child and I woke up this morning and I just wasn't. I'm not used to it. Kids never used to sleep well but they have recently been sleeping better and I was really tired and I was like okay, I just want to lay in bed. But I went out for a run, it was only 5k and it was very slippery and cold and it wasn't quick, it wasn't the personal best but I came back and I was instantly refreshed and I felt more awake having done that and set up for the rest of the day which after this, you know, I'm taking the kids for swimming lessons. It's. It's a real dynamic journey of that balance and I think some days you're going to manage it and other days you aren't. We're obviously recording this in January and there's such a big buzz around like New Year resolutions to set yourself up. But actually you can wake up each day and decide okay, I'm going to do that 30 minute cycle or I'm not going to watch TV this morning, I'm going to listen to an audiobook. I think there's little decisions, little things that we can all tweak that tries to prioritize ourself. And yes, some days like it could drive you mad and it all goes to pot, but you can start the next day afresh.

Yeah, I think you're right. Just thinking about Your approach to switching off as well, I'm quite intrigued. But if your day sounds quite bitty, you know, going to a swimming lesson, coming back, doing some more work in different slots, how do you switch off and stop thinking about work? Are you just very good at mindfulness and therefore are mindful. Engage with your children as they get dressed peacefully and calmly for their swimming lesson? Or realistically, is there something that you've learned that you, you, you're doing now that in terms of switching off?

I, I think there's two parts to that, that. The first is that because I've run Heka with my co founder, we've always had to make it that you have to leave work somewhere because otherwise you're with each other at work and then.

And your husband, your husband runs it.

Yes, my husband runs it with me. So my co founder, who is my husband, we run it together. And so we've all always had to be able to set these boundaries where we have to leave work somewhere. So when we go home, we don't really talk about work. It might be an occasional, oh, this person signed to something positive. But we're never actually delving to anything deep around work when we're at home. And we try to actually, even if we're, we just try to schedule meetings with each other in the time that we are working rather than having those conversations at home. So I think I've made that decision where you don't bring it back. And so because we've been doing that, we've been working together for eight, nine years, so we've actually got quite good at that. But then I think that kids are a beautiful distraction and you mentioned obviously a nice, peaceful getting them dressed for swimming. And that's not at all. And almost that chaos means that there's no room to be thinking about anything else. I don't have emails on my phone, I don't have slack, I don't have my calendar. Talking about those like little decisions that you can make to actually prioritize yourself and be like, okay, is this going to distract me? Is this going to pull me away? Am I actually going to answer that email on my phone whilst I'm getting the kids ready for swimming? No. So what's the point in me seeing it? So I've just removed any of that from my actual phone so that you don't have those little distractions to pull you away from the present. And again, obviously stressful times occur and you can't always actually just switch off from it, but you can choose to try and distract yourself. So if I find myself thinking about something stressful, well, okay, I'll box it. That's when I'm going to think about that. I might actually even make like a calendar notification for the next day of this is the time to think about that. So you're trying to. Maybe that is mindfulness, but I've never put actual terms on it. But just really trying to safeguard your own time so that you can be present in the moment.

Mm. Okay, let's settle off all the inspiration, but let's talk about something more negative. Sorry, that came across very. I didn't mean it badly, so I'm interested. Can you recall some of your lowest moments of combining a big career and a CEO role with young children?

Yeah, I think I mentioned previously that I went through my whole pregnancy with my first not really thinking about the fact that I was going to have a baby. I was excited and really, really delighted. But it wasn't the easiest of pregnancy. My eldest, we found out at the 20 week scan that she had like some heart conditions. All fine now, but it was a very stressful second half of the pregnancy. And really she was born three weeks early as well. So I hadn't even had like a moment off work. She had to come by induction. And I remember literally sending emails at 4:00 in the morning before I went into hospital to have that induction. Talk about balance, like just not any at all. I came home from hospital, we were in hospital for about a week after I had her and I came home, I just had the laptop still there. Like, you know, she'd be asleep. As newborns do, they sleep a lot. They sleep on you, they sleep next to you. And really anytime that she was asleep, I was still opening up the laptop. And it was three weeks after I had Lily and I was sat virtually like we were. It was Covid time and I was breastfeeding Lily off site. My oldest daughter doing an interview with the BBC about how you can be a founder and have it all. You know, you can have this family, you can have, have it all. And literally closing off and just crying hysterically because I just could not actually, I'd been saying it and then I was like, how do you actually do this? And for about six months kind of carried on that journey of Lily slept. I worked all hours of the day, didn't sleep really at all, didn't do anything else. And it was really, obviously not great. And it wasn't great for work, like work. I'd created a fantastic team around me, but I still felt like I had to do it all. And ultimately it got to about. Lee was about six months, six, seven months. And it was one of our investors and actually chairman who was like, okay, something's going on here. And I basically made the decision with my, my co founder. At that point I was just going to step down. And at the time I didn't actually have much intention or know about a plan of coming back. In hindsight, it's much easier to say, okay, I probably definitely had some type of postpartum depression. But more than that, I just think I just hadn't ever seen a founder, definitely not a female founder, who'd gone through that journey of having a young baby and been like, this is what happens afterwards. Maybe I didn't look hard enough. But it definitely wasn't a conversation that was being spoken about to feel like that that was normal. I stayed off. I guess I was on some sort of maternity, but I stayed off. We then had our second quite, quite close together. And throughout that journey of pregnancy and not having that kind of okay, this is what is going to happen at work. And that stress, it was just a completely different picture. And when Oslo, our youngest, turned one, I just knew I wanted to come back to work. It was a completely different setup. I came back to work and it was fantastic. I was welcomed with like open arms. I set a much more flexible structure for myself and I eased into that as well. But it was not all sunshine and rainbows. Even the night before, even though I was deciding to come back to work, I literally got into bed and just cried hysterically, like absolutely sobbing my heart out. And Alex, my co founder and husband, kept coming in like, are you okay? I was like, I think I just need to get this out of my system. I think there's probably some kind of like underlining panic here. And as soon as I come back it was, it was a completely different story. And everybody's been so accommodating of new structure and support and the energy and vibe that I've been able to back to Heka because of that experience has been completely, completely different.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience so openly. Do you have any reflections about the structure? You mentioned structure there? And I imagine it's hard to replace a co founder, co CEO of an organization. Did you choose to replace in quotation mark yourself or did you just get your co founder husband to work more or do you. Did you come up with some different arrangement? What was the solution there?

I think as a founder you a co-founder, you always think that you are completely invaluable to the business. And I think definitely early on that's true. But then if you've created the right team around yourself, you can probably look and say, okay, I do this but X could do that or why could do that. And so it was, we did hire some different positions, but they were almost further removed. And actually it was the more of the senior team who got promotions and took on different responsibilities. So we shared that workforce and that workload so it didn't all fall on my co founder's shoulders. And now because of those decisions that we made then to some of our senior team, they are long standing employees and that's because they've been able to grow and develop with us and that they're happy to have that responsibility of, okay, now I've got this and nobody's going to be there to micromanage me on it. So I think if you've created the right team, you can trust them. You can trust, okay, I'm going to take three months, six months, a year off. Specifically talking if it's a female and they're going off a maternity and they want to take a chunk of time, my biggest advice around it would be to try and actually plan that out. Don't just do what I did the first time being ostrich and put your head in the sand and be like it will all be okay because you wouldn't plan like that for any other business decision. And I think that we can almost get like stardom with ourselves of like, you know, we're the main character of this. We set it, we make all the decisions. Actually you can trust your team.

And do you have any things that are now different in terms of how you lead as a result of having had those maternity leaves?

Yeah, I think kids, I think I said it before, but kids can really be a great distraction but they also hyper focus you. Anytime that I'm not with the kids and working, I really want to make the most of that. I know that whatever I do in those three, four hours that I'm working, I need to make the biggest impact I can. So being quite ruthless in okay, delegating this is now your responsibility. You can do it. I trust you to do it. You can make the decisions. I don't want to be a blocker. I think that delegation, but also in how clear cut you have to be. You know that if you're negotiating with a toddler of this is what you're going to have for Lunch, you can't really leave much room for that negotiation. You want to be like, this is what's for lunch. Can you just eat it, please? And I think that you kind of have to take that same mindset with work. I've tried to change my language or not even tried to, I've seen my language change. So in emails, for example, I wouldn't say, I think when, when I know that that's the case, you know, just that slightly more assertive tone of if I know something, then how can I make that come across without, you know, sounding really cocky or demanding? And I think that that is a good approach because, yeah, you just have to be that bit more clear cut, you've got less time and so you need to make the most of it.

Sounds like becoming a mother has made you a more powerful leader, actually, 100%.

I mean, what better incentive is there? You said about earlier about, you know, how do you prioritize well, being in yourself? And I think that's because I want my kids to grow up and know that they can put themselves first, that ultimately they are the ones that are going to have to live with themselves and their body for the rest of their lives. And so if they don't learn to look after it, you're not, you're not going to get a second body. So I want to lead by example in doing that and I think that that's the same with, with work, that I don't want them to remember, you know, their times in childhood as me being some burnt out, stressed beyond compare, working all hours under the sun. I think that I want to show them that balance you can achieve.

Great. Did you battle any stigma from those in your professional network around your abilities or your dedication to your job whilst also being a mother?

I think there wasn't specifically stigma from my network of investors or just generally people, but there was just probably no clear examples and I think I did allude to that before. But it's difficult when you feel like you're a trailblazer in an area that you don't want to be. Something like motherhood and pregnancy as well. And that balancing act of, of being a co founder running a business, you want to be able to look and say, okay, this is how somebody else has managed this before because realistically these are all high stakes things. You don't want to drop any balls here. I think that that's why I'm quite open about talking about it because I do think that there is a way forward. Historically there's been this real push. We want more female founders. We want more female founders. We have female hours, you know, for investment and we do all of this. But I don't think anybody's ever gone the next lane and said, okay, if we are encouraging all of these females to go into and run these businesses, what happens if they want to start a family? Like what guidance and suggestion and who can we point them to? Who's done this before? I think as an industry and a whole of like startups, we can probably sometimes be a bit like, okay, we're going to jump on this kind of, of almost next bandwagon of, yeah, let's get loads more females. And I think that that almost gets lost if you haven't got that support there, because otherwise it's just going to be, going to be a churn. I think the amount of women in general who go back to work after having kids, let alone if you look at those statistics around women who have founded companies, I think the picture now needs to be how can we support women in these roles?

So what do you think needs to happen so that we do have more women CEOs and co CEOs? What would you change if you had a magic wand?

Change the patriarchy? Probably not with just one wave of a magic wand, but it's a big question and I don't think there is actually an easy answer to it. I think more open discussion around actually, if you are early, early days, what can you do? Like, is there somebody else who can take on that role for six? Have you started thinking about what it will be like and what balance you'll be able to create? Are you happy to work one day a week initially? And I think just it sounds such a boring answer to it, but normally like logistics and that kind of planning can help a huge amount. Everybody says that, you know, it takes a village. And I think that's especially true if your attention is being pulled elsewhere. Some companies. Do you share parental leave now as well? And I think that maybe if you still. Obviously I co founded it with my husband and we had that maternity where I was. I was definitely going to take that. But if maybe your other half is in more of a traditional job, are they going to take some of the maternity? I think just a bit more open conversation, which isn't the easiest or straightforward answer, but yeah, it's the honest one.

Absolutely. And I think we also need more people like you and others in CEO roles to just say, here's how I do it. And I think what we're missing is a blueprint for parents, both mums and dads, who want to take the kids to swimming lesson and be a CEO and who don't want to make a choice. And I have people say to me, in fact I've even recorded people for this podcast who said to me, oh, I don't think I can do. I don't think it's possible to be a CEO, not work all 100 hours. I have to say I didn't actually release that episode. It was with someone who, I don't know how we ended up interviewing him. It was a bit of a random one, but yeah. So there are people who believe that it is not possible and I think we need to create those new blueprints urgently. That's what we need to change because things will change. The world of work is going to change for sure. If we don't influence it by acting differently, it's going to change in a direction that might not be what we like.

Yeah, I completely agree. And I think that if, if somebody's saying that they have to work all hours under the sun, then they even need to hire somebody else because you can't. That's not sustainable. Not even just from like a well being perspective. But nobody can be on all of the time. And especially if you have kids, like the amount of, you know, how much they obviously they drain your cup, but how much they fill your cup back up as well. That's what fuels me through everything really now. And I think that's what I was alluding to when I was said that it's not just actually having a baby or a child that changes when you become a mum or a dad. It's your mindset as well and that focus which, yeah, it's a whole new world.

Absolutely. I'm quite struck by your confidence of doing things your way. And I'm interested. Did you have any advice, be that practical or inspirational that really influenced how you combine a C suite career with young children?

No, I probably just learned completely by doing it the wrong way the first time and how that could have been improved the second time. And I do have to give a lot of credit to my co founder and obviously husband because we really are a team. So many people say how do you can't imagine working with my other half. But actually I feel like we can be a Ying to our yang in that and it makes it a lot easier to know that you've got somebody who understands you emotionally but also at home in that work and home environment. So that definitely has helped I think we've been there for each other. When I was pregnant with my second, we found out that Alex has a brain tumor. We thought it was sympathetic side effects initially because, yeah, I was pregnant with our second and all of a sudden his nipple started leaking and we were like, what's going on here? And he obviously had some scans. We found out that he had a brain tumor. He's still on medication for it and might be having surgery at some point in the future. But even going through that and still carrying on running the business together and really that journey, I think that you have to appreciate that life is short and if you're trying to work every hour under the sun, it's not going to work because you're not going to be satisfied with looking back and saying, okay, this is what I've done or this is what I've achieved. Like despite working less hours, my output and where he is is the best it's ever been, you know. Q4 Last year, December was fantastic. Signed a contract with a new company every day and if I'd have said that to myself when I was just had my first baby and I thought I was the B1 end or the company, without me it just wouldn't work. It just isn't the case. You know, you can build fantastic teams, but you just have to have the confidence to trust them.

Fantastic. Well said. Can you share where people can find out more about you, where they can find out more about heka?

Yes. I mean Heka is probably. The website is probably the best place to find out about Hika and how we can support companies and employees. Alex is definitely very vocal on LinkedIn and I try to be and sharing how we run business and how we juggle family. We have a fun little segment that is I married my co founder where we share funny facts about each other and what it's like to work together. I think that it's good to kind of have your finger on the pulse there and just keep things fresh and light hearted because ultimately we're all on this earth to hopefully enjoy ourselves. And so I think that as well. Is that. Is that balancing act of. Yeah. Sharing some stuff?

Absolutely. And just for my curiosity, did you get married first and then found Hika or you founded Hika first and then got married?

Well, we actually met at university, so we did the same course at university, founded Hika and then got married. So yes, it's. We actually. We got married in Covid with about 10 people because our initial wedding was cancelled and so about two not Even two weeks ago, a week and a half ago, we had a wedding party that we never had, so we had about 80 guests. So got to do the whole shebang again. So, yeah, for my sins, we've, yeah, we've been together for a long time now, nearly 12 years.

And we start we've finished every podcast with two or three very practical things that people can implement the next week, which should each take maximum five minutes. So can you think of any practical things someone who wants to improve their well being whilst being in a C suite role could do this week? It's fine if it's just one or two.

I can think of two immediately. So the first thing that I think people could do is to turn off the notifications on your phone. I just think they are constantly there to bleep and distract you. It will really just like alleviate your head. You can still open them up if you feel like you need to check them, but if anything's urgent, I always say people can call you. But I don't think it's useful at all to have slack, to have Calendar, Gmail coming through on your phone. I think it's just a distraction that pulls you away from the present, especially LinkedIn as a notification for everything. So just turn off the notifications on your phone. And now this is going to make me sound like a real tech adverse, but I also don't have a tv and I would say that even if it's just for a week, just to hide your TV remote and in that time that you might have just sat down and be like, okay, I'm just going to relax and watch half an hour, which then turns into two hours of Netflix. I would just say run a bath, go for a run, stretch, listen to an audiobook, just do anything, even if it's just for a week where you haven't got that. That's how we initially started because I was fed up of obviously working all day and looking at a screen and then inevitably watching it in the evening. And yeah, we just, we don't have one anymore and it's amazing what you can do with that time otherwise. And probably the third thing is just trying to put in place easy ways to eat. Well, I think if you think about a car, if you were putting the wrong fuel into that, it's going to not run smoothly. And I am a bit of an addict of Red Bull and so you can't always practice what you preach, but definitely you can try. And I think that if you can order some healthy meals or, or just even having fruit on hand in the office. Little things like that I think make a really, really big difference.

Very well said. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you, Steph. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

I really appreciate you listening. Thank you so much. And I always love to hear from our listeners. If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, just go to FerenaHefti and I'd be delighted to hear your feedback and your suggestions or just have you say hi. Likewise, if you do feel passionately about gender equality and you want to support. A female led podcast, then please do leave a review and share it with a friend. Just because at the moment podcasting is still a very, very male dominated environment. Most of the top charting podcasts are led by men. I really love all the people who've joined from the podcast, our fellowship program. And if you want to do the. Same then please head over to leadersplus.org/Fellowship in order to get access to. A community of support to help you. Combine ambitious career with young children together with people who have your back. See you next week.