[00:00:00] Eric Goranson: It's around the house,

[00:00:06] Stephen Pantano: uh, are huge. So the Inflation Reduction Act has two or three programs, really. I mean, how you count that, that can be used to offset these upfront costs for people who that are income qualified, uh, with less than 150% of the area median income. So it's different everywhere. Yep. Um, there are rebate programs through their, um, Electrification rebates that are up to $14,000 to offset the cost of, uh, of the heat pump equipment, the weatherization insulation and air ceiling work that probably needs to be done alongside that to improve the home, the electrical work, and the panel upgrades that may need to be done.

[00:00:46] Stephen Pantano: Um, and the cost, uh, in some cases, the cost of, of labor, uh, to get that work done. So that's $14,000 for some people right off the top when it comes to remodeling and renovating your home, there is a lot to. [00:01:00] But we've got you covered. This is around the

[00:01:04] Eric Goranson: house. The segment is brought to you by Root Quencher and Root Quencher dotcom.

[00:01:08] Eric Goranson: If you have trees you're trying to water and they're not healthy, you need to get water right to the roots and you know how you do it. Root Quencher. Check out root quencher.com, save some money and have healthier trees. Welcome to the Round the House Show. This is where we help you get the most outta your home through information and education.

[00:01:27] Eric Goranson: Thanks for joining us today. We've got a big show lined up this hour. We've got Steve Pontiano, head of research at Rewiring America. Steve, welcome to Around

[00:01:37] Stephen Pantano: the House. Thank you Eric. Glad to be here. Yeah, this is

[00:01:40] Eric Goranson: such an important topic right now and, and you know, in, in my local area here in Portland, Oregon, and you know, this show goes across the United States on the radio and of course internationally on the podcast.

[00:01:52] Eric Goranson: But you know, this electrification thing is huge and we've gotten a lot warmer in the Portland area for a lot of different [00:02:00] reasons, and probably 30 to 35% of our. Homeowners here, or renters don't have any AC

[00:02:09] Stephen Pantano: let alone a heat pump. Yeah, it's um, it's really so. Where I live, I live in Maryland, and uh, it's hot.

[00:02:16] Stephen Pantano: It's hot and humid here right now. Yeah. Um, and most, most homes have ac um, and have for years. Um, and I think the Pacific Northwest is an interesting story because as you said, it's getting warmer and, you know, people are always looking to upgrade their, their home, whether they're a renter or homeowner, and looking for options to, to have cooling now where they didn't maybe need it before.

[00:02:37] Stephen Pantano: Yeah. And at the there's of interesting new. Products coming out that solve for that, for both renters and, uh, renters and homeowners in a variety of different building types. Um, I'll just a quick anecdote. I was at Costco, uh, few days ago. Mm-hmm. And saw the first portable air conditioner, heat pump, [00:03:00] uh, combo that I've ever seen on sale for $300.

[00:03:03] Stephen Pantano: Wow. Those floor standing ones with the little ducks that run out the window and, yeah. Not, maybe not everybody's like first choice for a heat pump, but certainly an option for people who don't have other ones, um, to bring electric heat, uh, and cooling into their home. You know, if they have a small apartment or something and you have, uh, you know, maybe have steam heat or something and no air conditioning.

[00:03:26] Stephen Pantano: This could be a great way to, um, to, to bring. You know, fairly efficient electric heat and cooling into a place. And for 300 bucks, I mean, that's the lowest, certainly the lowest price, heat pump I've ever laid my eyes on, so.

[00:03:40] Eric Goranson: Right. Yeah. And you think about it, I mean, there's so many houses, especially on the west coast out here, we see a lot of a apartments or homes built in the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties.

[00:03:52] Eric Goranson: Like with the. With the wall cadet heaters or the baseboard heat or something like that. And if you could hook [00:04:00] that up where you're getting heat in the winter time with that, right, in that heat pump technology, you could actually be saving over, you know, what you had traditionally built into the wall because that is such inefficient heat when you're talking those forced air electric, you know, or you know, resistance heat heaters that are mounted on the walls.

[00:04:20] Stephen Pantano: Yeah, I mean it, that's, so there's a lot to talk about here. So resistance, resistance, heat is what a lot of people probably think about when they think about electric heat. And it's, you know, it's, it's a toaster, right? Your toaster oven suck is electric heat. You just have a big toaster all over your house if you have a electric resistance heat mm-hmm.

[00:04:38] Stephen Pantano: Um, that is by definition, a hundred percent efficient. Every, you know, every bit of energy that goes in there turns into a bit of heat. Um, heat pumps can get. Three, four times more efficient than that? Um, easily under most circumstances. So if you have electric resistance, heat, um, you are definitely going to save money.

[00:04:59] Stephen Pantano: Uh, [00:05:00] if you switch over to heat pumps, now you have to, you know, maybe you need to install duct work or install mini split heat pumps that go through the wall. And it's, you know, it's not a, it's not a. Simple transition, uh, necessarily logistically, like you need, you know, you need expert help, um, but you're gonna save a ton of money.

[00:05:15] Stephen Pantano: And now there's all these federal incentives coming into play, um, and tax credits through the Inflation reduction Act that can hopefully help to reduce that cost to, uh, a manageable place for, for most people, if not all. And those go along perhaps with other state and local incentives or u utility incentives to switch to heat pumps because even in the electric utilities, best interest to move people off that.

[00:05:37] Stephen Pantano: Electric resistance, heat and into, um, into heat pumps cuz they're that much more efficient. Oh yeah. And yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:44] Eric Goranson: It's, it's amazing. And then there's that common, you know, misconception that, oh, I live in a colder climate, so heat pump isn't gonna work for me.

[00:05:53] Stephen Pantano: Yeah, that's, that's another place where there's a ton of work, uh, being done.

[00:05:56] Stephen Pantano: A ton of innovation in cold climate, heat pumps. There's organizations [00:06:00] like ne, the Northeast Energy Efficiency Partnership, uh, which has been leading the way on a lot of this work. The Department of Energy has a cold climate, heat pump challenges a lot of innovation happening from individual manufacturers, and we now, Have products on the market that can provide or will soon through this, uh, d o e heat pump challenge.

[00:06:20] Stephen Pantano: Mm-hmm. I believe they can provide a hundred percent of their heat output down to five degrees below zero Fahrenheit, which is, um, really remarkable performance. Yeah. And even, even your run of the mill heat pump. I, so where I live, um, We, I have UHS 15, so that's the energy efficiency ratings. 15 single stage heat pumps that are about 10 years old.

[00:06:41] Stephen Pantano: Mm-hmm. Um, on my house right now and I have oil heat for backup, which I hate to use cuz it's super expensive and I try to use it as little as possible and my heat pumps keep my home comfortable down to about. 25 degrees outdoor temperature, which is pretty cold. Yeah. Um, and I could probably push it even a little bit further [00:07:00] before the family starts to complain that they're a little chilly.

[00:07:03] Stephen Pantano: Um, but even that 10 year old sort of entry level, most basic, minimum standard technology today, uh, will work down to 25 degrees. Yeah. Which is, you know, plenty of heat for most parts of the country. Mm-hmm. Um, And, you know, you can get, you can get, obviously get much better performance out of the, the newer products that are available today.

[00:07:22] Eric Goranson: Oh yeah. I've got a friend who's an architect up in Maine and she's using heat pumps and her projects up there even. So yeah,

[00:07:28] Stephen Pantano: Maine is, Maine is a great story. There's um, I think Maine is leading the way in a lot of, a lot of ways around the country and, and heat pump installations. And it gets pretty darn cold in Maine.

[00:07:38] Stephen Pantano: It does. I dunno if you've spent any time up there, but yeah, the winters are brutal.

[00:07:42] Eric Goranson: It's brutal up there, you know, it's, it's. You know, other than places where you have extreme temperatures, like my son that just moved to North Dakota, where, you know, you're getting into the negative 30 fives where clearly you have to have something else's backup.

[00:07:57] Eric Goranson: In most of the US

[00:07:59] Stephen Pantano: a heat pump's gonna [00:08:00] work great for you. Yep. I, I would agree with that. Yeah. You know, and it's,

[00:08:03] Eric Goranson: and it's smart because we all like saving money. Nobody likes paying that huge gas bill. Oil bill, you know, or even electric bill if you've got that electric resistance, heat. And like he said, the rebates that we're seeing out there right now are massive.

[00:08:19] Stephen Pantano: Yep. Yeah, the rebates, uh, are huge. So the Inflation Reduction Act has two or three programs, really depending how you count that, that can be used to offset these upfront costs for people who make. Uh, there that are income qualified, uh, which is by, by the, what the law says, it's less than 150% of the area median income.

[00:08:44] Stephen Pantano: So it's different everywhere. Yep. Um, there are rebate programs through their, um, electrification rebates that are up to $14,000 to offset the cost of, um, of the heat pump equipment. The weatherization, insulation and air [00:09:00] ceiling work that probably needs to be done alongside that to improve the home, the electrical work, and the panel upgrades that may need to be done.

[00:09:07] Stephen Pantano: Um, and the costs, uh, in some cases the cost of, of labor, uh, to get that work done. So that's $14,000 for some people right off the top. Um, wow. And, uh, for others who have, who pay income taxes, there's the, the 25 C tax credit program. Mm-hmm. Which is the energy efficiency tax credits that have been around forever.

[00:09:29] Stephen Pantano: Mm-hmm. Uh, his, historically, these have had a lifetime limit. So you could do a project and then you hit your lifetime cap and you don't get to redeem that again. That lifetime limit's been removed and now people can redeem those year after year. Um, and the list of products that qualify have been expanded substantially to include heat pumps and.

[00:09:46] Stephen Pantano: And other, um, high efficiency equipment

[00:09:49] Eric Goranson: around the house. We'll be right back. Don't go anywhere.

[00:09:54] Stephen Pantano: What's up? This is Stick hand Satchel from Steel Panther and you are listening [00:10:00] too, around the house with Eric G. Yeah. We love Eric G and you should too.

[00:10:09] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to The Round The House Show. This is where we help you get the most outta your home through information and education. Thanks for joining us today. You know, we've been talking about electrification inside your home, and this is something where you can save some serious money with all the rebates and everything else out there.

[00:10:24] Eric Goranson: And we've been talking with electrification America about this exact thing. Now let's get back to Steven here, where we've been talking about heat pumps and heat pump, water heaters and all those things. That can save you a little bit of money around your house. Absolutely. And, and I, I was a early adopter of the heat pump water heater for my house because I had gas and I'm like, you know, wait a minute.

[00:10:46] Eric Goranson: This makes a lot of sense. And I love that we're starting to see heat pumps used in many other places around the home like that because my savings on my, on my heating and my water was massive. That [00:11:00] thing pays for itself really quickly when you put a heat pump heading towards a water heater.

[00:11:05] Stephen Pantano: That's my, so that's my next one.

[00:11:07] Stephen Pantano: That's the next thing I'm doing in my house. I have a resistance water heater. Mm-hmm. Um, I've done, actually done some maintenance on it recently, put new anodes in and I know it's, you know, it's maybe got a couple years left. It's a little small for my house. The, yep. Heat pump water heaters. You can get a bigger storage tanks.

[00:11:23] Stephen Pantano: Yeah. They can run in hybrid mode. So if. Hot water replenish quickly, they can just default back to resistance. Mm-hmm. Um, in many cases and kind of keep up just like any old water heater, uh, can do today. Yeah. And I have three daughters. There's a lot of hot showers and a lot of hot water demand in my house.

[00:11:42] Stephen Pantano: Um, and I'm gonna need a bigger, I already need a bigger tank. Yeah. So, you know, I know that's one of the biggest. Uh, points of energy consumption in my house and I'm really looking forward to, um, to making that switch probably this year.

[00:11:54] Eric Goranson: Yeah. Yeah. I went to, I went with a Bradford White. I went from a 40 gallon gas to an 80 [00:12:00] gallon heat pump water heater.

[00:12:01] Eric Goranson: That's awesome. And um, I think with my energy rates out here, I don't think that's costing me a hundred dollars to heat that Wow. Year round. Yeah, because it uses about 500 watts of energy on heat pump mode. And because I have the bigger tank, it's not having to, rarely does it go into hybrid mode. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:19] Eric Goranson: Uh, because even when I have my 22 year old daughter come over with her friends and crash on the couches and stuff, even when they just blast through hot water, It's always kept in that. So it's pretty rare when it doesn't do that. But I tell you what, yeah, it, uh, that was a game changer on energy, energy savings outside of just a regular heat pump.

[00:12:37] Eric Goranson: It was one that I, I was shocked at how much money that actually saved

[00:12:40] Stephen Pantano: me. Yeah, I know that's gonna be a good one, good one for me too, given the circumstances. The other thing I'm actually looking forward to with the, the heat pump water heater is the dehumidification in the, the basement, right? Mm-hmm. So, um, it'll, I run dehumidifiers in my basement now, and this is, you know, another energy cost that I get to, uh, diminish as a result of.

[00:12:58] Stephen Pantano: Uh, you know, when I get [00:13:00] that heat pump water heater, I'll get sort of free dehumidification in the basement at the same time. Yeah. You

[00:13:04] Eric Goranson: know, that's, that's one of the things, let's talk about this with heat pumps, cuz I think this is an important thing outside of, of course, the, the energy basics that you get with this, you know, that's the obvious thing, but it creates such a healthier home environment as well because when you're running that, um, you know, you're, you're heat pumped, you're taking out humidity, you're, you're filtering out.

[00:13:26] Eric Goranson: You know, um, things that are in the air. So you ha you end up having a much, you know, cleaner, healthier home because of you've got this central system working versus just a, a steam heat. Radiant heat, yeah. Or electric. That's just going through these. It's shocking how much that filter will pick up in the house if you put a diesel one in, when you put that heat

[00:13:44] Stephen Pantano: pump in.

[00:13:45] Stephen Pantano: Yeah, I have, so I have Merv 13 filters, so pretty good filters on mine. Um, I've got these nice big four inch, uh, ones that you don't have to change too often, which is pretty nice. Yeah. But they do, they do a lot of work to clean the air. You're right. When you're mo [00:14:00] moving from, uh, Steam radiators or electric resistance to, uh, to a forced air system with a heat pump, uh, or even a mini split.

[00:14:10] Stephen Pantano: They do have, you do get that air, air filtration benefit. Yep. Even when you move from a furnace, forced air system to a heat pump. Because of the way heat pumps operate, um, they're meant to run. Almost continuously. Yeah. To keep the house versus a furnace, which is going to cycle a lot more frequently and sort of get these blasts of hot air that sort of diminish over time and then it blasts you again.

[00:14:32] Stephen Pantano: Mm-hmm. Heat pumps will do, do a much more gradual heat. They are intended to run, uh, continuously and by doing so, they actually filter and process more air in the house. So, um, compared to that furnace installation, you're gonna have way more runtime, way more air moving through the filters, um, and much. A much higher volume of air filtration than you would otherwise have had.

[00:14:52] Stephen Pantano: Um, and, um, yeah, I think it's just gen. It takes a little bit of education. People don't, you know, people are used to [00:15:00] the blast of hot air out of the air register and typically, like, there's stories out there of folks who have gotten a heat pump and they're like, where's my hot air, my quote unquote hot air.

[00:15:10] Stephen Pantano: Um, and their house is just as warm and comfortable. It just doesn't feel as hot because it's, it's sort of more gradual. Uh, more gradual form of heat. So, and

[00:15:18] Eric Goranson: to me it's less distracting. You don't hear this thing spooling up playing a jet engine, you know? It's not, you know, and especially for me, where I'm recording things, you know, when you have a heat pump going, it's so much quieter.

[00:15:29] Eric Goranson: You're watching television, you can't go up. Furnace is turning on, you know,

[00:15:33] Stephen Pantano: and that kind of thing. Scene in, in home alone, where Kevin goes in the basement and there's the big whatever. Yeah. Stayed in. Uh, Vacation house over the summer, um, a couple years ago that had a really high end Mitsubishi heat pump, uh, system in it.

[00:15:55] Stephen Pantano: Mm-hmm. And it was right on the patio outside the, the house. Right on the deck. Yeah. [00:16:00] And it was almost silent. Like it was, it was much better than the ones that I have on my house, which are 10 years old. Yeah. And the speed, I mean, they're allowed to like a central air conditioner. Yeah. Cause that's essentially the same product.

[00:16:10] Stephen Pantano: Right. Um, but these newer ones are, are. Are really fantastic in terms of, um, sound. Yeah, my,

[00:16:16] Eric Goranson: my AC that I have in my house here sounds like a box fan outside, right? Mm-hmm. Just hear the air movement and that's really all it is. So they've gotten so much better with that. So one of the questions I have, and this is one of the, the pushback that I get for people, cause I talked to a lot of people about smart home tech and that kind of stuff is, is what do we do nationally to get our electric.

[00:16:38] Eric Goranson: You know, cuz the utilities out there are doing a great job of trying to upgrade stuff, but our electric consumption of course is gonna be going up with electric cars and all these new electric things that we're putting in. Are we gonna be able to stay on top of that? Do you think, you know, as far as keeping our, our neighborhoods wired and that kind of stuff with, with as much that we're trying to do electric [00:17:00] with electricity.

[00:17:01] Stephen Pantano: Yeah, I, that's a great question. We get that all the time as well. Um, And I have, I think the, the key point to make here is about the amount of time that this is going to take. Right? We're not going to put electric cars in every garage tomorrow. We're not gonna put heat pumps in every house tomorrow.

[00:17:18] Stephen Pantano: We're just not. We, I wish we could, but we won't. Yeah. Um, it takes time. Right. So we have, uh, we just published a report. That looks out towards the year 2050, um, and says if we want to electrify, uh, everything in the economy by 2050. Um, and typical, typically like different types of equipment like cars or heat pump, HVAC or heat pump water years have different lifetimes.

[00:17:42] Stephen Pantano: So for a heat pump HVAC system, it's typically 15 years. So he said, well, really by 2035, we need to be turning all the sales over. Uh, to heat pump by that date to make sure that ev you know, yeah. More or less everything's electrified by, um, on the heating side by, um, 2050. So even [00:18:00] that like a hundred percent of sales by 2035 is still 12 years down the road.

[00:18:05] Stephen Pantano: If we hit that target, we are talking about a couple decade long transition, which is the timescale on plenty of time on a utility timescale to upgrade infrastructure, right? Sure. So what I think needs to happen is a bit of, um, Integrated planning, right? We need, uh, kind of everybody. To have this in mind as they're planning grid infrastructure upgrades.

[00:18:27] Stephen Pantano: I'm sure that utilities in a lot of places are already doing this, as are the, uh, regulators. Uh, but saying, you know, where is this load growth going to happen? On what timescale? Don't change that.

[00:18:37] Eric Goranson: Dial around the house. I'll be right

[00:18:38] Stephen Pantano: back. Don't go anywhere.

[00:18:55] Stephen Pantano: Hey, this is Ron Keel, the metal cowboy from Keel, the Ron Keel [00:19:00] Band, and Steeler. We are rocking around the house with Eric G. Ray is your best.

[00:19:07] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to Around the House Show. If you wanna find out more about us here and around the house, head over to around the house. online.com and make sure you catch our videos over on our website as well, because I've got my TV show videos over there.

[00:19:20] Eric Goranson: So if you've got a project you're tackling and you need some inspiration, it's all over there at around the house online.com. Now let's get back to Steven with Electrification America

[00:19:30] Stephen Pantano: Planning. Right? We need, uh, kind of everybody. To have this in mind as they're planning grid infrastructure upgrades. I'm sure that utilities in a lot of places are already doing this, as are the, uh, regulators.

[00:19:43] Stephen Pantano: Uh, but saying, you know, where is this load growth going to happen? On what timescale? Um, and how do we plan our upgrades so that we're addressing the places where the load growth is going to be first? Mm-hmm. Um, at the same time there's other like, Countervailing things like electric resistance, heat, which can come off the [00:20:00] grid and be replaced with heat pumps.

[00:20:01] Stephen Pantano: Correct. So you sort of have this ability to make trades. Um, uh, so you're adding load in some places and taking it away in other places, and at the same time, planning over 20 years. To make upgrades. If we are doing this work now with two decades to get it done, I'm pretty confident we can figure out this puzzle and not break the grid.

[00:20:23] Stephen Pantano: Right. Yeah, I think that's, it's a bit of a straw person argument if you a ask me. Yeah. Um, and, and it just requires a little bit of foresight in planning and sort of understanding that this is the way the market's. Probably going to go and should go, um, because people are gonna demand this stuff cuz it works better and Yeah.

[00:20:40] Stephen Pantano: Um, you know, gives better outcome. Like this is where we're headed, right? Yeah.

[00:20:44] Eric Goranson: I've had, I've had friends that I've walked into their house, well, I'm thinking about adding a heat pump or I'm thinking about doing this and that, and you go through and start looking at the baseboard heat they have around the house and, you know, they've got six 40 amp circuits of, of baseboard heat around the house.

[00:20:59] Eric Goranson: And I'm [00:21:00] like, ah, okay, so you got enough here to put in a heat pump. And a car charger

[00:21:04] Stephen Pantano: if you just take those out. And neighbors probably as well with all that amperage. Right? Right. This is load reduction. This isn't even just load growth Exactly. Where there's also load reduction to be had. So, so yeah, I think it, you know, and what that means is if you are a.

[00:21:18] Stephen Pantano: The mayor of a town, um, and you want to take on an initiative to electrify where you live or, or you know, if you're a utility program manager looking at efficiency programs and, and deploying heat pumps and electrification programs, you probably want to prioritize those electric resistance. Homes somewhere near the top of your list.

[00:21:40] Stephen Pantano: Yeah. So that you're doing this work with, you know, those people are gonna save the most money. Um, it's gonna be the most beneficial from a load management perspective on the grid. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and generally we'll have better outcomes and happier, like this is, it's. If you start thinking about this as a holistic solution to a bunch of problems, instead of like, Joe [00:22:00] needs a heat pump, let's solve Joe's problem.

[00:22:01] Stephen Pantano: This is like, how do we do this at scale across a community or within, you know, a substation of a, a particular part of the electric grid? Then you start to see that there are ways to do it smartly that aren't going to cause these long-term problems that people are worried about. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:18] Eric Goranson: Uh, where do you see technology going?

[00:22:20] Eric Goranson: I know you guys do a lot of studies on stuff with heat pumps. Do you think that we're gonna get down, I know there's only so much heat in the air when you get down to, you know, minus 15, minus 20 in some of these areas. That it gets harder and you have to, it's work harder to get more heat pulled outta the air.

[00:22:37] Eric Goranson: Do you think we'll get it where, where most areas, when we even get up into, uh, you know, the, the colder Midwest, do we ever see that that's getting closer to, to being, being a way to be able to capture that heat?

[00:22:49] Stephen Pantano: I, I think so. So, yeah, when you think about the heat in the air, you actually have to start from absolute zero, right?

[00:22:55] Stephen Pantano: Yeah. So we're 200 and several hundred degrees above that all the time. Correct. So, [00:23:00] Five or 10 degrees to us, when you're going from minus five to minus 10, whatever, it feels like a dramatic thing. But in the thermodynamic world, it's not as dramatic. Yes. You have to, like, the technology has to work harder to get that heat out.

[00:23:13] Stephen Pantano: You need different refrigerants running in the refrigerant lines of the equipment. Mm-hmm. Um, but I, again, looking over that. 15, 20 year timescale that we're talking about. I have every confidence that manufacturers and innovation will spin up and solve these problems when the problem, when there's a market for them to do so.

[00:23:33] Stephen Pantano: Right. This, we have a long history of solving problems in well under 20 years. Exactly. Think about what your, like, think about your cell phone 20 years ago and what you have today. Um, it's, we're like light years past that. Right. So this is, you know, this is, um, Opportunities for, for small companies and innovators and inventors to come to the market and, and bring new solutions to this.

[00:23:57] Stephen Pantano: I don't even know if we're limited to sort of [00:24:00] compressor thermodynamic cycles, like we don't mm-hmm. Necessarily. There might be solutions that are beyond sort of what we consider an air conditioner or heat pump today that are going to come and help to solve some of these problems as well. Good question.

[00:24:12] Stephen Pantano: Yeah. We've got. Again, we've got time, but we have to start planning and thinking about these things. Now we need organizations to, um, sort of like the Department of Energy does, like here's a cold climate, heat pump challenge. Here's a real big, uh, market opportunity that we think needs to be solved for in the next.

[00:24:28] Stephen Pantano: Five to 10 years, we'll put a challenge out there to manufacturers to hit this specification because we know it'll be useful for this big portion of the market. What comes after that? I'm sure there's, you know, there's xprize like things that could come down the road to solve for new problems and get us that much further down the line.

[00:24:46] Stephen Pantano: Um, yeah, and it's helped to organize, you know, organize that innovation and I, I don't see why we can't solve these problems. Yeah. Nice. You know, I mean,

[00:24:54] Eric Goranson: we've got. There's a lot of solutions out there for the power generation side, and that's really come a long ways from [00:25:00] the, from the utility side of things, you know?

[00:25:02] Eric Goranson: Mm-hmm. And I'm not just talking about people putting solar up on their homes, but it just seems that with, you know, wind, uh, solar, you know, all the different ways you're seeing utilities now, we've got a lot of stuff out here on the west coast. Uh, From hydroelectric to nuclear to everything else, but it seems like we're starting to figure out ways to get the power generated.

[00:25:23] Eric Goranson: Really, it's coming down to the public to start making those choices themselves of, Hey, I wanna save some money and put a heat pump in. And yeah, I've got the government rebates to help me put

[00:25:33] Stephen Pantano: it in. And I think, let's, let's also, Ima like, you know, we tend to think of, of technical solutions around what we're familiar with and what.

[00:25:44] Stephen Pantano: Is today. Right? That's sort of most people's framework for saying, well this thing can't get better cuz it's always gonna, car's always gonna look like a car, right? Yeah. Um, it's gonna have four wheels and a combustion engine. Well, no. Like it may still have four wheels, but now it might have electric motors, right?

[00:25:58] Stephen Pantano: Yeah. And there may be future solutions that, [00:26:00] or I'm not even gonna venture into, but yeah. Um, There's ways of, for example, putting batteries into a lot of products that don't traditionally have batteries as a way to manage the grid and improve resilience, which is something we haven't talked about yet.

[00:26:15] Stephen Pantano: Um, there are a couple of induction stoves that coming to market now. Mm-hmm. Um, for example, which fit, you know, sort of you. Pull out your old stove and drop this in and it plugs into 120 volt outlet. Yeah. And the reason it can run that way is because it has a big bank of batteries built into the, what, what, what used to be the warming drawer.

[00:26:36] Stephen Pantano: Nice. Um, and those batteries allow you to, um, lower your overall load because it essentially charges the batteries and those handle the peak load of when you turn your burners on and you wanna boil water real fast. But you also. During a power outage can hypothetically plug your fridge into your stove and power your fridge for several hours.

[00:26:56] Stephen Pantano: Yeah. And cook your food, right. So, um, this idea [00:27:00] of bringing batteries into more types of products, um, and energy storage. So your hot water heater is a form of energy storage as well, the hot water in the tank. Um, battery store, same energy and electric form. This idea of bringing energy storage into the home in different places for different uses helps to also reduce that demand on the grid, improve people's resilience during outages.

[00:27:23] Stephen Pantano: Same way you can plug your Ford F-150 lightning into your house and power everything for eight days or whatever it is. Um, we'll have, I think we'll have, we'll start to see batteries show up in more places to serve those same types of roles. Oh yeah. I

[00:27:35] Eric Goranson: mean, I have one of those, uh, those battery, the, um, it's a universe one, but it's the size of a cooler.

[00:27:42] Eric Goranson: And I had just gotten here a few weeks ago and, uh, we had a windstorm and my, one of my in-laws who lives up the street from me, power was out for a day and I said, Hey, take it. Go plug your fridge in. And that powered their fridge for 16 hours and used, [00:28:00] um, what, 45% of the battery. Wow. It could have gone for another couple days on that.

[00:28:06] Eric Goranson: And they were shocked at how efficient that was. And, It just really shows and I think we're see. Um, Backup power like that is going to be something that's gonna be more important as we go forward. Not because of what we're doing here, but the utility companies, at least on the west coast, having some issues with liability, where if the winds are coming up here, you know, Pacific Power just had a big lawsuit here and don't go anywhere around the house will be right back.

[00:28:44] Stephen Pantano: Right.

[00:28:55] Stephen Pantano: It's end of the show down people.

[00:28:57] Eric Goranson: It's time

[00:28:58] Stephen Pantano: to go. [00:29:00]

[00:29:01] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to Round The House Show now. If you wanna find out more about us on the radio, podcast or television, head over to a roundhouse online com and there's so much information over there. Make sure you're following us on social media and don't forget our close.

[00:29:14] Eric Goranson: News group on Facebook around the House Nation. Now

[00:29:18] Stephen Pantano: let's get back to the show. I was coming from the, from the government, from utilities to help offset some of that cost. So, you know, I think for a lot of people this adds up to. Um, a no-brainer in a lot of circumstances. If you can see how much energy you can save and how much better the quality is, and yeah, I think e even the idea that you have these portable induction cooktops, um, for 70, 70, 80 bucks mm-hmm.

[00:29:44] Stephen Pantano: That you can buy and try for yourself. Maybe you're not convinced that this is gonna be for you and you know, you're, you think you're gonna be cooking on gas for the rest of your life cuz you love cooking on gas. You can buy this thing, try it out, actually use it around your house even after you try it out to.

[00:29:58] Stephen Pantano: Keep food warm outside or [00:30:00] whatever the case may be. If you're having a party, it's a nice little warming tray at the, at a minimum. But yeah, go try it and see for yourself how much better it's cause I think a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised at the experience. Um, and then, you know, once they realize how little cleaning they have to do, yeah.

[00:30:16] Stephen Pantano: Maybe even more, more pleased at the end of the day.

[00:30:19] Eric Goranson: Yeah. I saw Pellet grill with one installed on the side of it as an accessory. And that was the first that I was like, all right, that's kind of cool. It was a nice big one right there that you could put a, a stock pot on so you could be, uh, you know, doing your surf and turf out there and enjoying yourself.

[00:30:33] Eric Goranson: So I was like, sold. That's the first time I've seen one on a barbecue.

[00:30:37] Stephen Pantano: That'll be my next pellet grill, I guess. See,

[00:30:41] Eric Goranson: well, yeah, I mean, in a nutshell, and, you know, we'll have to wrap up here in a few minutes, but I, I wanna make sure that people understand right now that. That if you are looking to upgrade your H V A C system, and what I mean is, is that you haven't just put one in five years ago, but if you're looking right now, there are some the [00:31:00] money that it's gonna save you.

[00:31:01] Eric Goranson: I have never seen rebates like this before to incentivize people to go out and upgrade their system right now. And I think that's really the best message. For a homeowner out there, even if there's, you know, I've seen stuff here even in my state where if you're a landlord and you've got multiple units, there's some incentives for landlords as well to, to make that conversion.

[00:31:21] Eric Goranson: Now's the time.

[00:31:23] Stephen Pantano: Yeah, we're, we're building tools on our website and rewiring america.org to help people understand what federal incentives, tax credits are available to them. Um, I will note the, the incentives, uh, the incentive, the electrification rebate program, those are not yet out and available in the market, but we expect them in early.

[00:31:42] Stephen Pantano: Late 2023, early 2024 to start to roll out. Mm-hmm. The tax credits are available today. Yep. Um, you gotta sort of do your homework and figure out what's available to you. But yeah, there's, I mean, there's, there's plenty of oppor, there are hundreds of thousands of homes, uh, today in this country that could [00:32:00] vary.

[00:32:01] Stephen Pantano: Uh, Very easily start to save a ton of money on their energy bills and make some of these upgrades and be credited back and have paybacks that are very, very short. Whether those home, they're those homes that are using delivered fuels like oil that are super expensive right now, or those homes that are on electric resistance, where you're gonna get that three or four times efficiency improvement right off the bat, um, or.

[00:32:23] Stephen Pantano: Whatever. Like there's, there's lots of homes that can do this very cost effectively right now. Um, and people just, I think people should just take the time to look at what's in their house and understand what systems they have. I'm sure the people listening to your show are gonna be pretty savvy about what's in their home, but maybe their neighbors aren't and they can talk to their neighbors about this or their family members.

[00:32:44] Stephen Pantano: Um, I use my. My parents' home, uh, often is an example when I talk to people. So I grew up in Rhode Island in a, uh, pretty modest house and there is an oil boiler for heat and an old. [00:33:00] 26 year old at this point. Central air conditioner for air conditioning. Yeah. Uh, that air conditioner, I'm surprised it's still going.

[00:33:07] Stephen Pantano: Must be replaced. Um, so my, my parents pay for inefficient air conditioning. Mm-hmm. Um, their house is poorly insulated as well, which is another story. If they listen to this podcast, they'll probably be upset with me for bringing this up. Uh, their house is poorly insulated. It has inefficient air conditioner that's very old and near the end of its life and it has oil heat, which is super expensive right now.

[00:33:28] Stephen Pantano: Yeah. Um, and it's in New England, so it's also, there's a lot of heating demand. Mm-hmm. So if they were to do some modest insulation, insulation improvements to their home mm-hmm. And. Not even touch their oil furnace, uh, but put in a heat pump instead of their air conditioner. They already have duct work.

[00:33:45] Stephen Pantano: Mm-hmm. Um, that heat pump would offset probably 40, 60, 80% of their oil use. Mm-hmm. Maybe more depending on what quality heat pump they got. Yep. And it would make their air conditioning way more efficient cuz they're air conditioner as old as can [00:34:00] be. Yeah. So they would probably save. Thousands of dollars a year on their energy bills

[00:34:06] Eric Goranson: easily.

[00:34:06] Eric Goranson: Cuz we all know what that old air conditioner that's that old has, you know? Yeah. How many, yeah. How much power that thing's when it's cranking in the summertime, you know, that thing's so inefficient. Yeah.

[00:34:17] Stephen Pantano: And it's super loud. I mean, there, like, there are lots of houses like that in the world. Oh. Um, right now that could save thousands of dollars Right.

[00:34:24] Stephen Pantano: Today on their energy bills with a simple, in this case, a very simple upgrade. Mm-hmm. Which is just switching their central, existing old central air conditioner for a central heat pump, and then using that as the primary source of heat. So all spring, all fall, and most of the winter. You get really efficient electric heat instead of really expensive and inefficient oil heat.

[00:34:46] Stephen Pantano: And then in the summer your air conditioning bills also go down cuz you've gotten way more efficient on the air conditioning side. Yep. Um, and you do some, you know, you do some, uh, insulation and air ceiling work and get an energy audit and do all those things to improve the, the [00:35:00] building itself. Yeah. Um, and there are plenty of experts out there to do that.

[00:35:02] Stephen Pantano: And you're saving thousands of dollars every year.

[00:35:05] Eric Goranson: Yeah, it's, it's so smart and like you said, everybody knows somebody with this situation. In their home. It's so common and you're not rewiring the house to do this because that AC unit is using so much power, right, that your draw is gonna be, you're not putting in a new circuit for that anywhere, and it's gonna be that much more efficient.

[00:35:26] Eric Goranson: And you're right, it's just gonna keep paying you back as well as healthier air, because it's gonna do a heck of a lot better job of filtering and moving air as well, like you said. Yep. So that, that is so smart. So you think those, uh, bigger rebates, uh, we're, we're expecting end of the year as far as what we're seeing.

[00:35:42] Eric Goranson: I know. We've been waiting for that stuff to roll out

[00:35:44] Stephen Pantano: for people so. Yeah, it's up to, so each, the way these programs, the rebate programs work is that each state energy office Yep. Is responsible for administering these. They get the money from the federal government and they then roll these programs out.

[00:35:57] Stephen Pantano: So some states are more well [00:36:00] prepared than others to do this. Um, and we think that we've seen, you know, some states are starting to put, uh, put their plans together to do this even sort of ahead of the, the federal government guidance, cuz they mm-hmm. Or anticipating what it's going to be. Um, and other states are probably well behind that, so Sure.

[00:36:16] Stephen Pantano: Really it depends where you live. Yep. Um, but yeah, I would say late, later this year, early next year to start seeing those hit the market. So, but the tax credits, again, the tax credits are available today, um, to any, to anybody.

[00:36:28] Eric Goranson: And that just leaves you to save up right now. So, uh, start planning ahead for when those things do hit.

[00:36:33] Eric Goranson: If you don't have the money today, pull little money aside right now so you can get on that and, uh, use that money. I mean, it's free money to you, right? Yeah. And it's, it's tax money that's coming back to you, so, uh, they've already spent it. You might as well take your share and, uh, make your house more comfortable and save energy in the

[00:36:50] Stephen Pantano: long run.

[00:36:51] Stephen Pantano: Yeah, you raised one, one last point, maybe, um, you said planning today. Uh, I think that's a really critical point, right? So, [00:37:00] um, most, like, as we, I said earlier, most people don't really think about the furnace or the boiler. And they, it's like the thing in home alone that you try to stay away from unless you get trapped in the basement.

[00:37:11] Stephen Pantano: Yep. Um, you should think about the way your home is heated and cooled. These are big investments, much like a car. You generally know what kind of car you have and how old it is. I encourage people, and we're trying to encourage people everywhere to do that planning and understand the way their home works and what upgrades are needed and when.

[00:37:27] Stephen Pantano: Right. So, you know, have a plan. You know, your HVAC system might be. Uh, I don't know, 10 years old, so maybe you have five, 10 years left on that. You know, your water heater's 15 years old and already past the end of its life, so maybe that should be your first priority to upgrade. But just doing this assessment of.

[00:37:46] Stephen Pantano: The equipment in your home and how, you know, are you comfortable in your home? Is it performing well? Are you pleased with the way Yeah. Uh, with your air quality, all these things. I get this understanding of the way your house works. Um, and then put that plan together. And [00:38:00] hopefully in the near future we'll have some tools, uh, coming out to help people do that planning as well, and, and put them in touch with qualified contractors and, and all the stuff that needs to happen to make this a bit more, um, bit more of like a, you know, Useful journey for people Yeah.

[00:38:15] Stephen Pantano: To get their electri. Absolutely.

[00:38:17] Eric Goranson: And on one little keynote too, just an asterisk for all the people out there that, oh, my system's 10 years, I got another 10 years out of it. Just keep in mind, uh, this year they made a lot of refrigerant changes for those older units. So some of these older units, it's not gonna make sense to convert over to the new refrigerants, so mm-hmm.

[00:38:34] Eric Goranson: It's gonna be better for you to do the upgrade. So if you've got that 10 year old system, start planning now, cuz you're gonna need to put a new one in and that's gonna save you money in the long run. Yep. All right. Well, Steven, thanks for coming on today, man, you're a wealth of knowledge and I hope uh, our listeners out there have really got some new ideas on how to save some money and, of course, be a little better on the environment around themselves.

[00:38:57] Stephen Pantano: Well, thanks Eric. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks.

[00:38:59] Eric Goranson: Where do [00:39:00] people track you guys down? I mean, you guys have a big website and stuff like that. Where do people find you? We

[00:39:04] Stephen Pantano: are@rewiringamerica.org.

[00:39:08] Eric Goranson: Awesome. Steven Pantera. Thanks for coming on today,

[00:39:11] Stephen Pantano: brother. All right. Thank you, sir. And you've been listening too

[00:39:14] Eric Goranson: around the house.