Host: Lolly Daskal, she's an amazing woman. First of all, she
is one of the most popular writers for Inc, and she has
over 1.2 million Twitter followers. It's probably more
than that even by now. She's written for HBr, Fast Company,
Huffington Post Psychology Today. And she writes almost
exclusively pretty much exclusively on leadership, and
she is the CEO of Lead From Within. And her first book, it's
called The Leadership Gap: What Gets Between You and Your
Greatness. She's here with me today by special invite. So
Lolly, welcome to the show.
Lolly Daskal: I have been looking forward to this. And
thank you for inviting me. I'm looking forward to our
conversation.
Host: Yeah, well, and I know you've had some pretty big
honors, I mean, being in the top 50 leadership and management
expert by Inc. I saw it one point that Huffington Post
called you the most inspiring woman in the world, which is
pretty cool. So I was curious about who inspires you.
Lolly Daskal: So I've been inspired by three particular
people. And guess what never met them. The first one is Viktor
Frankl. I read his book, The Man's Search for Meaning. And it
changed my life. I read another book by Joseph Campbell. And it
changed my life. I read a book by Carl Gustav Jung, and it
changed my life. Now these three mentors have shaped who I am,
and what I do in the world, how I coach how I do business
consulting. And actually, because of them, I've taken
their three teachings and implemented into, you know, the
service that I do for others. And this was what inspired my
system. And now I write about my system in the leadership gap.
Host: In terms of the leadership gap, what would you say is
different or new, or what's sort of the unique slant or the angle
or the what's the what is the part that forwards the thinking
of what's been written already on leadership?
Lolly Daskal: So there are two parts very particular parts,
what makes this book different number one is most of you don't
know, maybe none of you know, but I read a book a day, and I
read about leadership, and I read about business, and most of
the books will talk to you about how most of the books will tell
you when, and where. And recently, we had a book will
tell you even why. And what I found is, especially in
philosophy, most of the writings about how to take us to
greatness and how to succeed, talks about who you are being.
And so I decided that I was going to write my book about who
you are being while you are living and while you are living.
So that's one difference. Number two is is that I have found that
there are also books about archetypes and personas and
traits and skills about leadership. Or what I haven't
found anywhere in a leadership book or in a business book, that
will teach you that you're very seen strengths can have a
weakness, and instead of saying, let's not concentrate on the
weakness, I teach you how to leverage that weakness. I call
those weaknesses, the gaps. And so this book teaches you that
you are a whole person in order to succeed in order to stand in
your greatness in order to do the things you want to do in the
world. You need to own all of who you are, in order to be a
whole person. And that's what this book is about. It teaches
you that you have both a light in the dark, the shadows and the
greatness. And once you learn how to leverage it and own it,
and you take responsibility for it, you can get what you want in
life.
Host: So I want to come back to that one here in a second. But
what are some of the things in terms of a leader and who they
are and how they are living? What are some of those kind of
key things you think who you should be being when you're
being a great leader?
Lolly Daskal: Great question. I'm so happy you asked that. But
one of the things that I want to talk about is let's go back a
little deeper than that before I answer that question, great
leaders in order for them to change the world around them,
right? They that's what we call them great leaders, they must
start by changing from within. That's where it starts. I think
that great leaders have the ability to rethink, and I'm
using that word in particular because we think is an acronym,
the seven archetypes of my book because it's all about the WHO
YOU JUST and who you need to be. And because they're able to
rethink util lies that system, there are constantly learning,
changing and growing as leaders. So Vaughn is the secret sauce,
the ability to rethink because this is what it is, in my system
the rethink system, you can be. So take seven archetypes, right.
And if you take the first archetype, you can either stand
in your greatness, or you can lead from your gaps. My
archetypes are different. Because it's situational, we
don't lean into one part of who we are, we lean into all parts
of who we are. And so if you learn the rethink system and the
seven archetypes, let's start with the first one. And people
will recognize themselves in the first one. So the first one is
the rebel in the reefing system. It's someone who wants to make
an impact on the world, but someone who wants to do
something significant, they don't want to follow the status
quo. In order to make that happen, they have to have the
characteristic of having confidence. Now, when I talk
about confidence, I'm not talking about standing in front
of the mirror and saying, I'm the best, I'm the greatest. This
is not about ego. This is not even about affirmations. When I
talk about confidence, I'm talking about capabilities plus
competence, equal confidence. Confidence, is believing you're
able, right, we believe we're able, but competence is knowing
your angle. And that is a game changing. When you know you're
able to do something you feel confident. But every leader,
every person that isn't a rebel, who has confidence, there is
what we call a gap. And the gap is of someone who feels like an
imposter who has self doubt. It's the person that wants to do
amazing things, who wants to take themselves to the next
level. But there were six negative messages in their mind
that say, I don't deserve both. I'm not the smartest if they
only knew, maybe I don't, you know, I want to do that. But I
didn't know how to do that. And I'll never learn how to do that
I'm too scared. It's often these little things that we say to
ourselves, that keeps us from standing in our greatness. And
so when you find that this happens to us, we have the
choice in the moment to say, Where do I stand in my
greatness? Or will I allow my gaps to lead? And that's why
this is so important to know this system, because it's a game
changer. When in the moment, you can ask yourself the question,
because sometimes if you lead from being an imposter and
having self doubt, you don't do the things you want to do in
life. It's the rebel that actually experiences the
imposter. Now, this system created after coaching 1000s and
1000s of people every time I talked about confidence, this
whole thing about self doubt and feeling like an imposter kept
emerging and did happen with the same with all the other
archetypes. Every time I mentioned a certain
characteristic that they needed to be as great leaders, he would
say what if only I didn't feel self doubt, if only I didn't
have this gap that own and that's how the system emerged.
It was from the feedback of those that I coached and those
that I was working with, that they kept telling me about what
they were struggling with. In my research, I have found that
99.9% high achieving individuals suffer from the imposter
syndrome. So that's the are so what about the E. So the next
one in the rethink is the Explorer. The Explorer is
someone who wants to go into uncharted waters, who wants to
do something different. But in order to be able to do that they
need to be fueled by intuition. Because intuition and science
talks about allowing things to flow. In order to allow things
to flow, you have to let go of something in order to let
something new come in. But for every single explorer who uses
their intuition, there is a gap of the exploiter who manipulates
and you might be sending Wally that's a very harsh shadow.
That's very harsh GAAP, but I'd like to explain how it plays
out. And see when you use your intuition, you let go of
control. And people have a hard time letting go of control. If
you need to control everything you need to have it your way and
only your way. You might not realize it but you might be
exploiting people or weaknesses or just to get your way you
might manipulate someone nobody wants to call themselves an
exploiter or a manipulator. But if people are honest with
themselves, when they need to have control, they might stand
in this gap. And this gap can end up costing partnerships,
relationships and business and especially leadership. So we
have to be very mindful to see can we learn to let go of
control and allow ourselves to let things come in? Or do we
need to control things and end up maybe sounding like an
exploiter for manipulates so that's a very important
archetype to be aware of. Be excited All leaders are ones
that need to manipulate in order to get what they want. But the
Explorer doesn't do that in order to get what they want.
They let go of what they think they need to have, and allow
what they want to come in. Let me just explain something about
intuition that I want to share. I have found over the years,
that intuition I know people talk about intuition as being
like a sixth sense, it's about your gut feeling. But what we
found about intuition is is that in our brains, we have like
chips in our brains, where we store nemaline, your own store
experiences. And intuition means that all those chips are coming
together when we need an answer. And then all the sudden, we're
saying, Wow, that makes sense. And it's not because all of a
sudden, we got it out of the thin air. No, it's all of the
experiences and all the challenges and all the habits
and all the actions that we've taken is in our mind, and when
we need an answer, the computer in our brain goes through all
the chips and says do it this way. Anybody ever notices that?
When you have intuition? It's usually five words or less, it
sounds like follow it to it. Now, the moment you add, because
or thick the word, it's not your intuition, it stops being
intuition. So for me, I know when someone is really speaking
from intuition is when it's short, a short sentence, and
they don't use the word because.
Host: If you realize that you are in need of too much control,
how do you get yourself to come to that place of letting go?
Lolly Daskal: Great question. I love that question. The thing
about it is, it's almost like when you have a bad habit, like
how do you break a bad habit? Right, you have to introduce
something new, that you normally wouldn't try. So for a leader,
who's in needs control, I've seen this hundreds of times,
I've seen this in organizations where a leader is always telling
people what to do. My coaching is Have you tried maybe
listening instead, where leader always thinks they know the
answer. And they're always like, this is how it needs to be, I
suggest to a leader, maybe saying out loud, I don't know,
can you teach me. So it's kind of opening up the path for
trying something new, in order to see if you get the same
return, right? Because a leader that's always constantly when
I've seen this exploiting and manipulating employees to numb
out after a while, they stopped working as hard as they should.
And they tune them out. And most likely, they're looking for
other jobs. Because these days people don't you know, in my
days, people stay 25 years, 30 days in a job these days. If you
have a boss, if you have a leader who's constantly
manipulating and exploiting you, you're leaving that job. And so
the greatest leaders, as I said earlier, have the ability to
rethink right? To go into find out which kind of archetype they
are. And they're open to learning and growing and
changing. That's how you let go of control. nellen Say something
not everybody wants to do that. The knee has to come within the
leader, the leader has to be able to recognize that the need
for control is not getting them the results that they want. And
that's when a leader says can you tweak it? Can you change it?
How can I leverage this? What do I need to do?
Host: So basically, the leader has to take the first step of
admitting, hey, there's a there's a shadow here or there's
a darkness that I have to sort of work through?
Lolly Daskal: Or a leader will never say that out loud. A
leader will say to me more. You know what, I'm not making the
kind of revenue I want. Our business is losing money. Pete
my best people are leaving the top performers are not staying.
What's usually what a leader will come to me and say, it is
only then then I asked them, What responsibility do you play
in that? Most of them will say nothing, it's not my fault. And
then I say leadership starts going work, boom, it starts with
you, you need to set the example. Now let's find out are
you standing in your greatness or your gaps in which one of
these gaps is costing you in the kind of business that you really
want?
Host: Does every person have these gaps?
Lolly Daskal: So we have all of these within us. These are the
patterns that I've seen over three decades of working with
leaders around the world. So we have all of them. Do we tend to
lean towards one or another? We tend to but these archetypes are
not about like Myers Briggs or like Strength Finders or the
discs. These archetypes are situational. So if you're having
a meeting with someone, the archetype of the truth teller,
or the archetype of the deceiver, you know comes up and
you could ask yourself, will I be the truth teller in this me
Meanwhile, I tell them the whole truth that maybe things aren't
going okay? Or will I tell them half lies, and they'll catch on
that part parts of me are deceiving them, which will
create suspicion. Or you could be in, you know, you could have
a conversation with someone, and maybe you need to be the hero
instead of the bystander. So they're more situational than
they are, okay? I'm only one archetype. And that's, that's
what I lean into.
Host: So is that the, that's the third, the third archetype is
the truth teller.
Lolly Daskal: The third archetype is the truth teller.
And I think for people that are running businesses and want to
take themselves to the next level, is very important to tell
the truth and to be a truth teller. I'm sure we have
recognize the truth tellers in our lives, because it's almost
like they have a duty to always tell us the truth. They always
love to speak with candor. But as we know that a truth teller
has a gap, when they're scared to tell you the truth. They tend
to tell you hoc truths, and they become deceivers because they
withholding information. And when people withhold
information, people become very suspicious, they become very
paranoid. We know that when you don't tell the whole truth,
people are busy making up stories, oh, I know what's
really going on. And then it gets out of control. So we have
to be very mindful, are we going to tell people the whole truth
and tell them the bad news that we need to tell them and maybe
ask them to be part of the solution, or will be end up
deceiving them and maybe cause suspicion among our teams and
our businesses? And it ends up costing us on what we really
want to create.
Host: Okay, so what's the H?
Lolly Daskal: H is the hero. And I believe that within each of
us, there is a hero, because what is the hero, the hero is
someone who feels fearful, right? Who's scared, who's
frightened, but they're courageous. Anyway, as we know,
there's a great book that says, feel the fear and do it anyway.
So that's the hero. But for every hero that exists, there is
a gap. And the gap is of the bystander, who is fearful. When
you're a bystander, you see something, but you do nothing.
You hear something, and you say nothing. How many times in our
lives? And have we been been standards? How many times in our
lives? Could could we have said something or done something and
we don't do it? So question that I asked everyone is then when
they need to do the hero? Are they courageous? Or are they
allowing their fear to lead them? And then they end up being
the bystander in their lives?
Host: OK, so what's after hero? What's the I?
Lolly Daskal: I is the Inventor. It's about their craft, how do
they create the craft? What do they do with their craft? They
do it with integrity, that means that everything that they do
they do with excellence. That means that if you expect
something from them, it's going to be quality, then inventor has
a bar, and the gap is of a destroyer, who's corrupt? And
you might be saying, Oh, that's very harsh. But I want to
explain what I mean. But a mean by man, is it someone that says,
let's do this faster? Let's do this cheaper, let's cut corners,
nobody will ever know. And the truth is, it does come out, you
end up paying a price, and we come across as a destroyer who
is pull up. So you will always have a choice to ask yourself if
I am going to do anything in the world. Will I do it from
integrity? Or will I do it from the parts of being corrupt? Or
will I do it on the parts of being a destroyer? And we don't
want that. But when we are stressed out when we are
challenged, we tend to live in our gaps. We want to just do
things to get them done. People end up costing us in our success
and in our greatness. It's very important to always be mindful
at everything that you do to ask yourself the greatness or the
gaps.
Host: Well, that is five of them, my friends, which if you
want the other two, the last two, you're gonna have to buy
the book because we are out of time. The leadership gap is the
name of the book. Lolly I do have one other question for you.
Before we do that, where should people go if they want to
connect with you and learn more?
Lolly Daskal: So as of now, theleadershipgapbook.com And you
can always find me at lollydaskal.com. And I really
like to connect people so you can find me on Twitter at Lolly
Daskal blocked me tweet me retweet me and I will do the same.
Host: So my last thing for you Lolly is I mean you you
literally write like 100 articles a month. You're reading
a book a day you got this book coming out. If I'm listening for
the first time, what is the first action that you would
encourage people to take if they're realizing I haven't been
leading from a place of greatness?
Lolly Daskal: Well, the first thing I would like to share with
people that if you are truly looking for the some of your
greatness, stop asking ourselves, what do I want to do?
And instead we should ask ourselves, who do I want to be?
That's number one. Greatness is not only a destiny that is only
granted for you, but it's a choice that's available to
everyone. And this is what I need. A choice is action that we
do. It's a decision that we make. And if we know greatness
is within us, then in every given moment, when we are
challenged, when we have difficulty when we have stress,
or how we show up, we can always be mindful to ask ourselves, are
we standing in our greatness? Or are we leading from our gaps?
Host: Lolly, thank you for your continuous stream of inspiration
and education and gosh, we just wish you the best of luck and
good good things for you in the leadership gap.
Lolly Daskal: Amen.