I think my experience is a little bit different, clearly, because I am the white guy, um, and With a, uh, a Filipino woman. I think, you know, coming from her culture, you just don't talk about race. It's just something like, she just didn't want to talk about it. And I think coming from the outside, coming from a very sheltered, non diverse background, I became very hypersensitive to every little thing that I thought was some sort of racial slight. Whether it was in a restaurant, not getting served or seated was, um, you know, in a store not being helped or having my wife being watched because she came in and speaking a different language on the phone to her sister or something.

We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor and how we didn't even talk about this topic because we were afraid.

A Black Executive Perspective.

Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective podcast, a safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, Especially race in corporate America. Bra I'm your host, Tony Tidbit. And again, today we're at the University of New Haven in sunny New Haven, Connecticut. We want to thank the University of New Haven for partnering with the Black Executive Perspective Podcast, allowing us to use their fabulous podcast studio. Go Chargers. Also, please check out our partners, Code M Magazine, whose mission is to save the black family by first saving the black man. Check them out at Code M Magazine.

On July 11th, 1958, at 2 a. m., a county sheriff entered the home of Virginia couple Richard and Mildred Loving, forced them out of their bed and placed them under arrest. Their crime, interracial marriage. They were tried and found guilty of violating Virginia's Racial Integrity Act of 1924, a series of laws that made race mixing illegal. On June 12th, 1967, the court unanimously struck down the Virginia Marriage Ban and overturned the Lovings Conviction. The court ruling reverberated across America, invalidating anti miscegenation laws not only in Virginia, but in 16 other states that held them as well. After winning their case, the Lovings were finally free to do what they wanted to do all along. They lived quietly in Virginia as husband and wife until Richard's death in 1975.

So today, we commemorate the anniversary of the Supreme Court case Loving v. Virginia, which legalized interracial marriage here in the United States. We'll dive deeper into complexities 57 years later of interracial relationships. Following our previous discussion of challenges faced by biracial teenagers in our episode Too Black to be White and Too White to be Black, today we shift our focus to their fathers. Who will share their personal experiences regarding their interracial, interracial marriages, as well, as well as tackling public discrimination, navigating their children's identity issues and confronting racial microaggressions. Robert Townsend, Brian Stern, and Shawn Norville, welcome to a Black Executive Perspective Podcast, my brothers. Podcast, my brothers.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you.

Glad to be here.

Well, number one, we want to thank you for investing the time to come on to talk about a very important topic. Um, and as you heard, or excuse me, as you saw the clip. 57 years later, uh, interracial marriage was struck down, the ban against interracial marriage was struck down in 1967. Now we're 57 years later. So it would be great to hear you guys perspective on your relationships, your family, your children. And all the things that you deal with. So everybody's definitely interested to learn more about your experiences. So to kick this off, it'll be great if we can get a little bit background from everyone. So starting with Brian, you go first. Please introduce yourself. Tell us about your current occupation, where you're living and the racial makeup of your spouse.

Sure. Thank you for having me back, Tony. It's great to be with you again on the podcast. I really appreciate the opportunity to, uh, to speak. Um, so giving just a little bit of background, uh, on me, uh, currently I help people become entrepreneurs. That's my job. I coach people in the world of entrepreneur. Um, as far as my marriage, I am coming up on my 16th anniversary. Uh, being married to a very beautiful Filipino woman who was born and raised in a very rural part of the Philippines. She came over here as an adult, um, when we met. And um, we have a beautiful daughter at the age of 13. So a brand new teenager in the household, which is a whole other thing to have fun to talk about as well.

I can imagine, my friend. And where are you residing at, Brian?

I am on the Jersey shore. Okay, great.

So he's in New Jersey. So welcome my brother. And again, for those who, um, probably not aware, Brian Stern came on and talked about interracial, uh, his interracial, um, marriage back in one of our earlier episodes. So I'm so glad you came back, my friend, Shawn,

my brother, um, Shawn Norville, uh, My wife and I have been married for 18 years, but we've known each other since college. So we're coming up on a quarter century at this point. Um, I am from the island of Barbados. Uh, my wife, uh, is from, um, Southeast Asia from India and it's where her family's from. And, uh, you know, we reside currently right now in Los Angeles, but we're formerly, uh, New York residents, uh, New York proud. Um, our kids now are eight. Six, four, and two, um, three boys and one girl. And, uh, yeah, they're, uh, quite the project management nightmare.

Seems like you got your hands full, my brother. So it's all good though. That's all good. So again, thanks, Shawn. Really appreciate you joining a black executive perspective to talk about this topic, Robert towns.

How are you doing? Thank you for having me. And thank you for opening up this dialogue, because I think this is very important to have. You know, our perspective on this, this topic. And I look forward to diving into this conversation more. So Robert Towns, I am a, um, a director of external affairs at a local children's museum in Norwalk, Connecticut. I live in Connecticut, been married to my wife for 19 years. We're coming up on 20 this October. We're looking forward to celebrating that. I have a 16 year old boy and a 14 year old girl. I'm very excited to talk about this for, uh, A lot of reasons, including the fact that we mentioned Loving versus Virginia. My family is from Virginia originally. Um, I grew up in Connecticut, but my family's from Virginia. So I drive past that historical marker on Route 301 in Virginia all the time that marks where they were arrested. And so, um, this is something that I've thought about, you know, Supreme Court decisions and the current climate. And it's like, this is time to talk about this again. So thank you for having me.

Thanks, my brother. I really appreciate that. And, and the racial makeup of your wife, your lovely wife.

Oh, sorry about that. No worries. Yes. Racial makeup of my family. My, my wife is, uh, uh, Italian Irish, you know, from, like I said, here in, uh, Connecticut. And I'm a black American, uh, family from Virginia. And, uh, you know, uh, one of the things about our, our family as well is, uh, that, that whole Virginia thing, you know, we go into the deep South sometimes and it is a different place. And 1967 still exists in certain pockets of Virginia. So, um, again, like I said, you know, the fact that my white wife can go down there, I, I, I'm really looking forward to being able to dive deeper into this.

Okay, brah. Well, let's start with you on this then, right? Um, tell us, why did you want to come on the black executive perspective podcast to talk about this, this topic?

The biggest reason is because I'm concerned about the present. I know we talk about 1967 as if that's a long time ago, but so much of what's happening today. May counteract a lot of the progress that's been made over the last few years in last, you know, uh, 50 something years Um, i'm talking about my my mom really quickly. Um, the movie remember the titans that's 1970 in virginia It's about the desegregation of a high school in northern virginia. Well, that was also my mom's senior year I was born in 1975 So I don't have to go back into the history books to talk about what the time was like before All of this happened. I can just talk to my mom about it. I'm blessed that she's still with us to be able to do that. And that's part of the conversation right now is we tend to think that so much of this stuff happened so long ago and it really didn't. And you know, we still have to be vocal about it right now so we can ensure that these rights sustain. We don't want to go backwards.

Exactly. My brother. Thank you for that. Brian, why did you want to come on and BEP to talk about this?

Well, I have the same reasons that Robert mentioned. Number one. You know, the history repeats itself if you don't learn from it. And I think we can be part of helping to educate people a little bit through our experiences. Um, and I think the, the second reason is, and we talked about this a little bit last time, is that this is not a topic that I have spent a lot of time talking about, even with my own wife. And I, you know, I actually appreciate having a safe space to come and talk about these issues, um, and, and learn from, from others that are experiencing a lot of the same things that I may be experiencing.

Thanks, man. Shawn?

Uh, for me, it's about, um, when we talk about Today's world in the youth. Uh, you know, Robert hit it on it. Um, I always talk to all the young kids that I mentor and tell them how much progress we've made in the world. You know, I start with the positive and said, it's been if you really think about the grand scheme of world things, we've made great strides. Black people in a short period of time, but we cannot forget. How much more we have to go. And for some reason, this country, ever since we've had a black president has forgotten that there's racism that exists in this world in this country. And for us, it's rapidly deteriorating the strides that we've made. And for some of us who, you know, grew up a little bit younger, maybe in the 90s, you know, it feels like we fell asleep at the wheel a little bit. And there's a, there's a movement that's sort of shifting. Yeah. Yeah. The fabric, the laws in our country. Um, and if we're not steadfast in terms of how we respond to it, we could lose a lot of different things. And as a person who has biracial kids, there's always a talk about them being black or the one drop rule, or, you know, being of a different ethnicity, um, and not sort of not being either or, um, but for them, I want them to understand their ethnicity on both sides, not just, you know, one or the other. But it's important for me to have this dialogue. Uh, learn, give my experience so that other people out there in the community can understand and learn from that. And also just reach out to say, hey, look, there's somebody else having the same issues. You know, my kids are relatively young, but they face racism at quite a young age from kindergarten down to, you know, 2nd grade. And that's why I wanted to be on here to just talk about those things. So people can be cognizant and aware.

Thank all three of you. I really appreciate that. And you guys totally make sense. And I, I cannot disagree with anything you all said. So let me ask you this question. Are you guys ready to talk about it?

Yeah,

absolutely.

All right, my brothers, let's talk about it. So, Shawn, I'm going to back up to you, my friend. So, you know, you guys been married 19 years. You're originally from the East coast, New York, correct? So just briefly talk a little bit about where you grow up. And then the follow up question I have, did you ever, See yourself when you were young, um, being in an interracial relationship and not that you're not not that you're old today, my brother I'm talking tadpole time. Okay. So so when you were tadpole, did you see yourself being in an interracial relationship?

Honestly, no. Um, from what I know and where, and again, I, and I, I speak to my experience and I, my family's from Barbados, and if you understand how the slave trade worked, you understand there's a lot of people from, um, Southeast Asia and from India who have been, uh, you know, part of that process made it to Africa and some parts of South America and some parts of the Caribbean islands. So when I talk about being an inter interracial marriage. The woman that I've married historically and from where I'm from, where she visually looks like, looks like people that where I'm from, right. And from the islands that I, that I had, you know, that we sort of commerce with. So for me, it wasn't like I was being an interracial marriage or I was marrying somebody outside of my culture because I really married someone that I thought was someone to my culture. Um, but it was everyone else's viewpoint of who I was marrying and also her family as well. So it was interesting dynamic and growing up in New York. Uh, Brooklyn specifically where you're spoiled with the melting pot that you are in. Uh, but once you leave those areas of comfort and safety, everyone looks at you differently. Everyone has different questions and then everyone treats you a little sort of way. So, you know, that's a little bit about, about us.

Oh, thanks buddy. Brian, let me pose the same question to you, my brother.

So I grew up in rural New Jersey, um, out in, you know, horse country. And it was incredibly, incredibly, for lack of a better term, white, right? Very little diversity. Um, so no, I, I really did not conceive of, of being in an interracial relationship when I grew older. Um, so the big difference for me was when I moved to New York and getting exposure. To just an incredible array of different cultures and experiences that really opened my eyes. Um, but you know, from a, from a family standpoint, I think my family was always open to the idea. There wasn't any, any tension or any, um, issue there. It was just never something that was part of our discussion.

Right, right, right. Robert, what about you, my man? I know you, Virginia, and so talk, speak.

So, so I grew up, but I grew up in Southern Connecticut. I grew up in Stanford. So right here in the tri state area. So a lot of diversity in my town. But I talk about those Virginia years because I used to spend my summers in Virginia. So a lot of formative time away from the diversity that I knew existed back at home. But then you go to Virginia and everything was black and white, black and white, black and white. So for me growing up, did I ever think that I would be in an interracial relationship? I grew up with a lot of people from a lot of diverse backgrounds, but never did. I never thought about it at all. Um, and, uh, one of the things with my family is they've always been open to me being able to be with whoever I wanted to be and bring home who I brought home, but, um, didn't have to walk far to hear other things as well. And, uh, you know, I know for instance, uh, within the black community, some people would say, you know, Hey. If she can't use her comb, don't bring her home, you know, so I would hear the stuff like that. But then also, growing up in Stanford, I knew what those town lines meant. So, crossing into certain communities, like a New Canaan or a Darien or a Greenwich. And knowing that me, I'm not welcome. And so, you know, like people, you know, know that they don't want to bring, don't want me to be brought home to daddy, so to speak. Um,

Well, just hold on one second, Robert, just so everybody's on the same page because not everybody's from Connecticut. So when you say Darien and So

Greenwich, Stanford, Darien, they're the southern most towns or cities. In Connecticut, about 30 miles away from New York City, but they call a nickname for Fairfield County, Connecticut is the Gold Coast. And those are three of the wealthiest towns in the United States as well. So Stanford is a very diverse socioeconomic and racially diverse area, town of about 130, 140, 000. But those other surrounding towns are very, very different. Um, you know, and, uh, very wealthy and, um, as a, as, as a matter of course, a lot of times not as welcoming to the diversity, or at least they were back then.

Right. Not, not, and it wasn't a very diverse. It's not a very diverse. Not, not

diverse at all. You know, socioeconomically, everybody's pretty wealthy. Got it. So

let me ask you this and I'll start with Brian. So what attracted you? So your wife is Asian. What attracted you to your wife?

What a loaded question, huh? Don't

mess up.

Yeah, I know, right? She's standing right behind me. Um, She was introduced to me through a friend. And I think, you know, the friend thought we had a lot in common and we did. Um, so I think a lot of it wasn't the differences between us. It was just the commonality, similar sense of humor, um, similar passions for, you know, some of our hobbies, like traveling and, um, you know, exploring. Different things culturally that we were both attracted to. I think it was a lot of those commonalities. I mean, it's the same as any relationship, I suppose, right? It's the things that dry together. Aren't going to be the commonalities versus the differences. So I don't know. I don't think that race had any, any factor in what brought us together at all. It certainly has played a factor since we've been together, but not part of the initiation of the relationship at all.

Shawn.

Huh? That's a, that feels like one of those Steve Harvey family. Few questions. When you, if you answer it the wrong way, you might be on the couch for the next week, you

can get no point. So you can get a hundred points.

No, it's, um, really and truly, it was, uh, her values, um, were very, they mimicked a lot of my values, the way she, um, you know, conducted herself with her parents, the way she viewed life, the way she viewed family, um, the way she operated. Yeah. It was very, uh, similar and in line with how I and my family operate, you know, and the way I treated my mother, the way my, I respected my father. And when we, we were really best friends, uh, in the beginning. And it was funny because we met in accounting, which was probably one of my, my, my, one of my best subjects. But like, I was just like, oh, I was just, lemme just really go all in this. And I, and I got to the point where she was like, looking at my notes, I'm like, wait a second. Stereotypically, I might also be looking at your notes, right? And we just formed a bond where we listen to the same music, ate similar foods, like they have curry. We have different curries. They have roti. We have a little bit of variation of roti. Again, we talked about that, that slave trade, uh, similarity or alignment. And funny enough, many people don't even understand or realize that connection that we built that. Baseline connection. And that's what attracted me to her. Um, you know, the shared values, the shared cultural symbolism of what her family life was like. Well, mine was like, it just made like a symbiotic relationship. You know, you joined that with living in similar settings and having similar familiarity, uh, parent parental structures and, you know, your mom being the matriarch and, you know, just things of that nature, but still respecting the family dynamic of The husband and what he does in the relationship and, and, and being the father and what that understands. And as you get older, you're going to appreciate that individual and that person more and more to want to build a family with them. And that's what attracted me to my wife.

Got it. Got it. And Robert, I know your wife, Shannon. So talk to me, my man, and you know, she's going to listen to this. So,

oh, yes. Uh, you know, so we, we met at work. We both worked at a local television station in New Haven, Connecticut. And the first thing that I would say about it is that we would have fun together at work. Lots of times laughing, joking, stuff like that. So since the humor was pretty similar. Um, despite the fact that she'll never admit to that. But, um, the other thing about it, though, is we had a lot of commonality with the things that we like to do. So, um, she worked also at a hip hop station in New York. And so we had a lot of shared interest in the music and the artists that we were listening to. Um, we had a good time when we would hang out together. And from there, it just blossomed. I mean, and then we realized that there were a lot of other commonalities as well. Both of us, the product of divorced households and other things like that, where there was shared experience. Right. And so despite the fact that we grew up in different places and, and, um, you know, we had different, you know, racial backgrounds, you know, we had a lot of similarities and, and, and we have a similar worldview. So things just clicked.

So what I'm hearing, um, is that at the day, and Brian, you said it point blank, that you guys met your spouses, there was, it was really, it had anything to do with the color of their skin or anything like that, it was about commonality, it's about regular things that you would be attracted to in any, with any human being, is that correct? Exactly, right? So at the day, you're walking the earth. And at the end of the day, you run into your future wife, and you guys became friends, and, and a lot of things you guys like to do together, and the next thing you know, the relationship blossomed, and the last thing that came to your mind is like, oh, she's different than me, and looks different than me, right? And you fell in love. So let's jettison a little ahead, a little, uh, ahead now. Now, you're together. Now, you love each other. However, tell us a little bit how the world saw you, or did you guys have certain conversations that you didn't have, that you didn't see internally? Because you just saw each other as the strengths and the love and this and that. But now you got to have conversations about how you look or how she looks. So who wants to kick that conversation off? When did that happen? Was that the first date or was that five years into the marriage? Talk to a talk. Who want to kick that off? I'm gonna throw it out there. You guys do it. I'll do it. Okay. Robert. Okay. Go ahead, buddy. You bite. I see you biting

at the bit. One of the, one of the things that, that from the, from day one and is unspoken with me, but I know that it was there for me is wondering how people thought about it. What people thought, you know, because I've already had experienced it beforehand, um, did not date interracially, but even just being around people at times hearing, you know, hearing comments. So I remember one time, for instance, um, New Year's night and New Year's Eve out with friends, you know, a diverse group, and, um, I'm simply being a gentleman and walking someone to the bathroom and this woman behind me says, leave her, leave the snowflake. I mean, like, you know, you hear stuff like that. So I know and was ready. For comments to come my way. One thing that didn't happen though, is those comments didn't really happen, but I was prepared to, to, to think about that and how it would impact the way that we were. Um, also, um, no, another situation where, um, going to meet family, you know, and just wondering how the family's going to receive, et cetera. And so just trying to make sure, you know, being ready for whatever happened, but being very blessed and very fortunate that nothing really did happen. No comments were really said. That ever shook our foundation.

Did you guys, and just to be back up a second, you said ditch the snowflakes. So just so everybody's clear, like, what does that mean?

So, so I was out like with a diverse group of people. And so one of the, one of the women in the party that we were out with was a white woman. And so, you know, at one point in the evening, she wanted to, you know, go to the restroom or something like that. And nobody was going to go with her. So I was just going to go stand by the door, just be a gentleman. Right. And there were, there was a group of black women there and they thought I was with her. And so one of them said to me, you know, it's New Year's Eve, so people have been drinking. And one of those women said to me, ditch the snowflake, you know, like talking about the white woman. I'm like, that's my coworker. Like I, not, that's not, we're not like that. But, but just knowing that, that, that kind of mentality exists.

Right.

You know, wanted to, you know, like I said, when I was with, you know, Shannon in the beginning, ready to slings and arrows that might come our way. And very blessed that nothing really happened like that. But, you know, we did end up having to have certain conversations just so we were prepared, you know, knew how we would try to react. If something were to happen, but we're blessed that nothing did happen.

Got it. Got it. Who wants to, who wants to go next?

I'll go next. Um, for me, we knew from day one, uh, it would be problematic, um, from both cultures. Um, historically, like, um, uh, she knew her, where her family, uh, they had just certain, um, Things that they traditions, uh, cultural, cultural norms, uh, that they did, um, you know, even down to, um, just where the person is from and, um, you know, uh, what language they spoke or what, uh, dialect. Right. So it's very, you know, it's very specific, uh, within her culture for me, it was around, um, and I'll, you know, I'll speak more to my side of it. Um, because as a black man living in, um, New York city, you are ultimately, if you started dating outside of your race, you are afraid of the black woman, um, and, and, and the, the, the effect that that's going to have on her, but also the response you're going to get right. And there's the, you know, the look or the nod while you're on the train with your significant other or girlfriend or whatever. And, um, it sort of eats away at your. Your soul, because you almost sometimes feel like you're betraying your mother or your sister, because there's this connotation that a few days outside of your race, you don't love black women the same as you do other women, because you've been brainwashed to like certain types of hair or certain types of complexions. And that complexity definitely added to, um, I want to say hesitation, doubt, um, uh, commitment, um, you know, to the whole situation. We, we live in a world where, where. Where, where our bravado and being an over sexualized women is sort of glorified and I wasn't that really kind of guy where I knew when I met my wife, I told her when we were dating that I was going to marry her and she thought I was joking, but she did not know that. A year before I proposed to her, I was actually engaging into a relation, into a relationship with building her mom and speaking to her mother every other day because I understood culturally where she was at. Right. And where she was and what she was, what she had to do, meaning she had to possibly be with me. And if it being with me, that meant she had to walk away from her whole family is what she thought at the time.

Right.

Um, so, so it's on both sides. It was, we were well aware of those factors. Um, you know, so I want to cut it short there, but I'll give Brian a chance as

Thanks Shawn. Brian.

Sure. I think, yeah, thank you. Um, I think my experience is a little bit different clearly because I am the white guy, um, and with a, uh, a Filipino woman. I think, you know, coming from her culture, you just don't talk about race. It's just something like she just didn't want to talk about it. And I think coming from the outside, coming from a very sheltered, Non diverse background. I became very hypersensitive to every little thing that I thought was some sort of racial slight, whether it was in a restaurant, not getting served or seated properly, or it was, um, you know, in a store not being helped or having my wife being watched because she came in and speaking a different language on the phone to her sister or something. Um, and I assumed everything was racial and I wanted to be the guy who stood up for her, that the hero would come in and, you know, defend her honor. Um, and so I became like, I know this is cliche, but like the angry white guy, right? Like I became the guy who was like, everything was racial and I wanted to talk about it and I wanted to fight everybody. I wanted to fight the world and get angry about it. But my wife just didn't want to talk about it. It just wasn't a big deal to her. So it actually festered with me because I didn't have an outlet to talk about it because, you know, it's not something that, that she was ready to talk. Um, but it's something that I've had to, um, develop a callous. You know, over time, when you see these little things, it actually takes more energy to, to, to deal with this nonsense than it does to resolve the issue. And a lot of times it's, I've learned that sometimes you just have to let things go, which still kind of eats at me a little bit, particularly when it comes to my child. Because what kind of example am I setting, right? That's where it becomes a real issue. When we see these little things happen and my wife doesn't want to talk about it, she doesn't want me to address it, but my daughter is right there. How could I let it go? Right. Right.

Let me ask you this, though, Brian, um, because you said something, and, and, well, let me say this first. Um, what I'm hearing is, and let's just, I'm, I'm gonna play back everything that you guys said, right? Hey, I got in this relationship excluding excluding Brian. He said I'm a little bit different, but let me just show on in Robert I got in this relationship. I fell in love with this person But immediately I had a monkey on my back because I had to start thinking about all these other things How the black woman is gonna do? I'm how she how they gonna look at me and treat me how the how My family or her family may deal with certain things. So that's an extra weight You Immediately that you are automatically start carrying just to have a relationship, okay? So I want to get back to that, but I want to go to where Brian said because Brian you said listen You know, I didn't you know, as soon as we came together I started seeing you know I became the angry white dude where I everything became ratio and every little slight Wasn't because of this wasn't because of that blah blah blah. Let me ask you this before You You started dating your wife. Did you see those slights before?

I think I did, but I just wasn't as sensitive to it. And I think that's a gift actually that I've been given is that actually now I am sensitive to it. Um, so on one hand, I'm, I'm very grateful that I have a much greater appreciation for how the world is. Um, but it's also one of those things where it's, you know, it's upsetting to know how the world is on that level too. Um, and then the worst part about it is not knowing what to do and how to behave in those situations.

So let's go. So number one, thanks for sharing that. So Shawn, Robert, did you, so this, let's just go back to what you guys were saying. Hey, look, you know, all of a sudden I had to worry about. You know, what black people or black women specifically would say or look at me, um, because I'm with my spouse, okay? And then you had specifically, Robert, where, you know, ditched the snowflake, alright? So, how did you get over, did you get over that? Okay? What did it take for you to overcome that? Uh, in terms of you feeling confident that you're with who God put in your life to be with. Talk to us a little bit about that.

So I say number one, um, part of the way that, that I dealt with it before and still deal with it today is that we'd navigate that kind of space in the world all the time, including now. So, um, the fact that I've been with my wife for about 25 years, we've been married for almost 20 now, um, it's still a daily occurrence. I'd never know when I walk into a space. How things are going to be accepted. And I say that not just dealing with going into a black community and how black women or black people treat us, but in certain, especially in areas where I'm not as familiar, don't know how white people or others will treat as well. So it's still a top of mind thing for me all along. Um, the one thing I would say about it though, is as far as the confidence is concerned, et cetera. Is that. I just become more comfortable in my own skin and don't care about what other people think as much anymore when I was in my 20s. You know, you still are trying to show out and show up and be around other people, but now I, you know, I'm just living my life and, and reality is what would get me, get my back up a little bit more about this is now seeing the slights and, and dealing with things with my children, you know, now I'm living for them and trying to help them get into a space where they can go out in the world and be the confident people they need to be, et cetera. And I'm trying to help them navigate things. And so, you know, as far as me and my wife is concerned, we're good. But. Don't mess with our kids.

I love it. Shawn, anything you want to add to that, my man?

Um, first and foremost, I want to say, uh, Brian, thanks for your perspective and your transparency in, um, realization in terms of the difficulties and complexities that you've been dealing with. And I think, I think your voice. Is a voice is not heard a lot, uh, but your perspective would be valued. Um, so I just wanted to thank you for sharing that, uh, with us, because I think that I think I appreciate that. That's really, really, um, impactful. So don't, don't, don't think that that's going to be glaze over, uh, for anyone watching this. For me, um, I knew I was ready. Uh, because my wife is my day one, she's my ride or die. Um, I'm a kid from Brooklyn, New York. Right. And we have to keep our head on a swivel, right? I grew up in a time where there was bloods, crips, gangs, land Kings. Um, and I live, you know, my family was middle class. So we had what was considered a little bit of money, which we all know it was not real money in the grand scheme of things. But, you know, I had nice shoes, I had Jordans and things like that. So I, I was always confident in myself as a person, like, you know, like for me, I've always been a confident person. But the one thing that I held. Uh, on my back was I always, always wanted to make my parents proud. Always want to make my community proud. I was gonna make my people proud. I've always been that kind of person. Um, and then you fall in love with your best friend and your best friends from a different culture. Um, but they share the same values. And then when you fall in love with that person, you know, what made me knew I was ready to go forward and doesn't matter what anybody cares when she came to me and said, I need to know what we're doing here. Are we committed to this situation? Because if we can commit a situation, I'm going to let everybody know in my world that I'm doing this and they're either here with me or they're not whoever's here with me or not. So the fact that. She wrote a letter, showed it to me, said, I'm going to send this to my parents, um, cause I need to communicate this cause we are really serious about our relationship. We're going to take this next step forward. That right there is everything. That's when I knew it was me and her against the world, even to this day, and we go through phases and chapters of your life where, um, you put on the armor or you grow the callus and it doesn't bother you. It doesn't matter. But then to Robert's point, Brian's point, when your kids come into this world, it's your heart outside of your body. Hey, you know how to handle it, and you know how to deal with it, but when the slights come their way You get all berserk and you're all, it's like, uh, like the wound is reopened. So now you know how to manage that. And what, and I love my wife even more these days because now she's now seeing it from a different eye, from a different lens, sort of similar to Brian, right? Whereas now it's like, you know what, we may not have, uh, A black affinity group in our school or whatever the case may be is, but I'm going to build one. Right. Even though I'm not because I know my kids need that support system.

Yeah.

And you know, it's these kinds of things that revalidates and reaffirms that that's the person that you rock with. That's the person that you ride with. That's the person that you married and you knew from day one, you made the right choice. It wasn't about the culture. It wasn't about the skin. It wasn't about the hair. It wasn't about any of the physical parts. It was all that feeling, that heart that you. Organically felt in the beginning, um, and that's what makes it easy for probably Brian and Robert and myself and to move forward, um, no matter what the difficulties are.

Thanks, man. I really appreciate that. You know, I'm going to jump in this real quick and tell a quick story because. One of the things with me, my wife is white and my wife is from a small town outside of Boston. She grew up like Brian, not a lot of diversity at all. And the things that we used to go to go through when we started dating, she never saw that before. She never experienced that. Matter of fact, if she, when she was dating her boyfriend prior to me was a white guy. They didn't go through the things that her and I went through. When we go to restaurants or stuff to that nature, right? And then when we had kids and, and so, but it took her a while to see it because prior to our relationship, these things didn't affect her. All right? And sometimes I thought like, wow, she's with me and now she's got to deal with stuff that had she dated somebody else, she would have never dealt with, at least from a racial standpoint. Does that make sense, my brothers? Right. And so that's why it's important that sometimes people, you know, when you come from a certain background and then all of you, you may not see certain things, but then all of a sudden you get a mate that's from a totally different background and it exposes you to things that you've never seen before. So, those are the things that's very important to understand. But I want to go to your kids because, you know, one of the things is, like, you know, Robert, your son was on the episode, too, too black to be white, too white to be black. And he shared his experience. So I want to hear about some of the things that your kids go through. But first, the first question I want to ask you before you had kids, did you and your wife sit down and talk about what was going to come by having kids?

Yes, this is Robert. So yes, we did. But I think to your point that until it became a reality, the conversation didn't land in the same way. Um, you know, because it's very important to know that You know, when we have children, people may consider, people will consider the children black in my, in my situation, um, that, um, various things may happen to them because of the color of their skin. But the real issue is it's an abstract thing until you actually see it, until it actually happens, until your child actually comes home and verbalizes things. So even hearing the earlier podcast episode and hearing from our son about things. provokes a conversation because we're not always talking about it, but it's something that's there. And now our children are able to elaborate on situations that they encounter and it makes it real.

Brian, what about you, buddy?

So prior to my daughter being born, we talked a lot about the fact that my wife's third language is English. So do we want my child to speak other languages? Absolutely. We talked about religion. We came from different religious backgrounds. We talked about. You know, cultural differences and things, but we never talked about it from the, the point of ethnicity, but to Robert's point, it hits pretty hard when you're faced with it in reality, years later, a perfect example is COVID. You know, being like, we're again in a pretty homogenous community and being one of the very few Asian kids in the school during COVID, you can imagine some of the comments that were flying at my child, you know, go back to China. You know, a lot of that, and you know, you just, things you would never conceive of that your kid would have to go through and you don't even realize it until after it's happened. Right. So how do you prepare your kid for something like that? So. You know, we, we deal with it as it comes and we try to deal with it as best as we can. But a lot of times it's such a surprise to us that it happens just because in our minds, like our relationship has been well accepted since it's been for 15, 16 years, but our kids just now developing her identity, developing her relationship. So she's experiencing a whole new set of challenges that, that we may never have faced during our relationship. So it's taking it as it comes.

What about you, Shawn? Thanks, Brian.

Uh, for me, I, uh, we had, we had conversations culturally, uh, from a religious standpoint, but for, for us, we had a lot of similarities in terms of the way we wanted our kids to be raised. We knew we wanted to, them to celebrate both sides of their culture and their backgrounds. Um, there wasn't a question about that. We knew they were going to, you know. You know, where, um, Indian garb closed and then they were going to, um, hear reggae and calypso from my culture and, um, things of that nature. So we knew that we had a very, um, aligned approach. What we did not, um, I think anticipate was how early we would need to have been prepared for the dialogue of them being, um, sort of put into a box. Um, earlier on, uh, and facing certain things that they may not be able to ingest and understand why people say certain things or why people want to touch their hair and that's why their hair is so curly or why my daughter wears braids, um, you know, versus, you know, It being out and them coming to us and asking us questions of, Oh, I want my hair to be yellow and, and down like my friends. Or, um, you know, why do my friends ask me how brown my skin is and does it rub off? And when you get approached with those things in real life and real time, and you're not able to react, it, it. It's a bit shocking, right? When I catch you off guard, you know, you have to deal with it. But to Robert's point, uh, it's like a, it's a theory in your head. You're just like, yeah, we're going to deal with it. We're going to approach it. There's tons of things to read and stuff like that. And we'll go get, we'll understand it very progressively. And then it hits you in the face, like a Mike Tyson punch in the nose. And then you're just like, Whoa, wait a second.

So, so, so back up for a second. You said, so, and I want you all to speak to this because I, you know, one of the things that we dealt with with our kids is that, you know, Uh, some people, you know, would make fun of them and call them. You know, different names because they were mixed. They were biracial. So when you said, um, they're trying to put them in a box, like what do you mean? Specifically,

meaning we've always taught our kids that they're two sides of them. They're fit. They're half and half, but when they go out into the world, the world only sees them as one thing, that part. Right. Right.

And then, so how do you deal with that? So when they, when, you know, because when the kids go out, Right. You only can protect them for so you only can do a little bit, right? Once they walk out in the world, the world will then deal with them. All right. So, so how do you deal with that with your children? And I would like all you guys to jump in this on this as well. And how does it make you feel?

I mean, you know me, Tony. I'm a strategy guy. I come up with a plan, right? So not only am I going to instill that in the home, uh, by repetitively making sure my kids know who they are. We celebrate, you know, cultural days and holidays. We make sure they understand their heritage. We make sure they, they, um, Understand where they're from and music and food and traditions, but we also make sure we share that with the teachers at school. And we also make sure that we invite their friends to the celebrations that are culturally relevant and teach them certain ways to let them know that this is part of their their friends culture. So now. Maybe not the parents so much, but we, their friends will now know their friends will now understand why when my kid shows up with, um, you know, Indian clothes, uh, because, because he's celebrating holy or a different festival or different holiday, uh, that's part of his culture. So, it's things like that. We make sure we instill in them, but also we invite and pull people in, um, as well as the community that they are in on a regular basis to make sure that everyone is aware. So I usually am tired of educating of the people, but it's actually my job to make sure that my kids are in a safe environment and that I'm educating and letting people know about who they are, um, as people.

I think for, for my daughter, what we've done is just make sure that she gets exposure to not just her own heritage, but because she appreciates the fact that she has a mixed heritage, we've just tried to develop that appreciation for other children of other heritage. So there are not a lot of kids. In our school district that are Filipino heritage, but there are kids that are Southeast Indian, or there are kids that are, um, from the Caribbean, or there are kids from South America. So those are the kids that she's tended to gravitate towards and become friendly with. Because we've taught her this just to appreciate, look, she's different. If people are going to view her as different, how do you think all these other children feel that may be exposed to the same things? So she's gravitated towards that, those social groups and those social structures. Um, and we've looked for opportunities to get her more involved in things like that. Originally we had her on a swim team where she was the only non Hispanic kid, because we wanted to give her a different, you know, set of exposure. Then if she had joined the team here, where it would have been all white kids. So for us, it's just about expanding our horizons, make sure that she's very worldly and has just a greater appreciation for other people's cultures and not worry so much whether or not other people have appreciation for hers.

Robert.

So one of the things that, uh, my children are blessed with is that, uh, we, we joke about it, but especially my wife's side of the family, they joke and say that we have like a United Nations kind of feel there, because we not only have the racial Um, you know, uh, diversity in the family, but we also have religious diversity. Um, you know, so we have, uh, Jewish in our family, so celebrate some Jewish holidays. Um, you know, there, there is a sexual orientation change in difference. So we, we, we celebrate everybody. So that's, that's one thing. But one of the things for me, particularly as it relates to black and white, is I really work with my children on educating them about their history first. Because those who don't learn from their history are doomed to repeat it. And then also want to instill a confidence in them that they can carry themselves in this world with their head held high. That they have nothing to be ashamed about, they have nothing to answer to, they are their own people. Um, and so that they have the tools and a toolkit to deal with a lot of situations. As a parent, my job is to kind of help them be ready to go out into the world when I'm no longer standing around them or near them.

Right.

And so I'm trying to work with them to get them to fill up that toolkit with all the tools they need to be able to handle a lot of different situations. So some of it is that street awareness and you understand where you are and the context of your being in the relation to everybody else. Um, trying to get them to understand in their lives, um, how to connect with people, you know, because sometimes you can disarm people, but you connect on a one on one basis with them. Like, just try, like I said, trying to give them many different things in their toolkit To be able to go about dealing with the world because I know at a certain point in their lives, they're going to be on their own, whether they're away at college or beyond, and they're going to have to deal with the world on its terms, but they have to be able to bring themselves to that point and, and, and thrive. And that's what I'm trying to get them to do.

What are some of the, so, so when it comes to your family, it comes to your, your marriage. What is some of the things that you guys, you know, you talked about your kids and specifically you, and you all said it, people try to put them in a box, they only can be one part of their ethnicity versus the entire part. What's some of the outrageous things that you guys deal with when it comes to interracial marriage and family?

So for me, I say, especially, you know, especially in this day and age, it's my daughter. And you know, I know hearing the other episode of the podcast, your daughter's kind of deal with the same thing. It's, it's the, it's the dealing with the hair. People wanting to touch the hair, wanting to do a lot of things, trying to get my daughter, particularly, you know, trying to work with her to deal with the world, because I am not a black woman. Um, and I don't have that intersectionality where I can understand what the world is like for a black woman. And I'm very blessed and very thankful that my mom and my sister and others in my family stepped forward to help my daughter when those issues come up where there are things that she needs to deal with outside of things that I can give her and that she has resources there to be able to help her, you know, because It is strange for somebody in my mind because nobody ever does it to me. They just walk up and stop touching my hair. If somebody comes up and starts touching my hair or like they're, Oh, it's time to fight. What are we doing? Touching me like that. Right. But women are supposed to take that and it's supposed to be fine. Right. It's not

for me. That's a difficult question. Okay.

Yeah. No, go ahead, Brian.

You said it's a difficult question. Go ahead.

I do think it's a difficult question because I, it's hard for me to categorize things as, as outrageous after 16 years. Um, but, uh, I, I, I think One of the things that, that has always shocked me a little bit is just the expectation that our relationship must be more challenging than anyone else's relationship. And I don't think it is. Right. You know, we deal with the same things that any couple would deal with. We fight over the same stupid things that people fight over. We agree on, you know, the same goofy things that people agree on. We deal with, you know, a lot of the similar things with children. And I just don't think that it's as, you know, extreme as a lot of people think. And I think this, that expectation, like I know, you know, my parents are very open, they were very accepting of my wife when we were dating, but I think they thought that there was going to be more tension in our relationship. And I think that a lot of people, a lot of my friends thought there would be more tension in the relationship because of the ethnic difference. And I just don't think it lives up to their expectations. It really hasn't been, you know, that challenging for us, one to one relating because of race. It really hasn't been.

Right. Shawn

Uh, for, for, from a marriage standpoint, it's, um, I want to say, I don't know if it's died down or more just I'm now, unaware of it or don't care anymore. And so I'm, I'm less sensitive to it or less cognizant of it where, you know, you would be stared at for long periods of time on a train ride from like the time you get on the train till you get off the train. Um, you know, just don't know what it is, but it's just outraged. Like you're going to stare at me for 20 minutes. That's very weird and awkward. Right. So, you know, those are some of the things that happened earlier on. But as we got older, um, I guess life changes, you put yourself in certain You are, um, more comfortable, I guess. Um, so things like that don't happen as much. But, um, from a kid's perspective, I'm dealing with a family perspective. Um, just the things that kids are saying, because they're curious sometimes, and they're not being exposed to different people or different cultures. So they have these questions, which are obviously really innocent, but they come from a place of just lack of exposure and, um. I wouldn't say they're outrageous. They're just naive, you know, and, uh, but what I do sense is that my kids don't ask the same questions back. Um, and that's the point that I don't, I'm still trying to figure out in real time, to be honest with you.

Right. So I got to say,

Tony, Tony, let me jump in on that.

Go ahead, Robert.

So one of the things is also a basis of comparison. Like what we go through in our lives with our marriages and with our children is kind of our normal. So, the word outrageous is a little bit different because it's just normal for us. Correct. The issue is when you have a basis of comparison to somebody else's experience and then you can see something different. So, for instance, you know, if I were to find out, for instance, that my wife and I are trying to buy a house in a certain neighborhood, and if I'm the person who is the lead on the conversation, I get, you know, mortgage rate at a certain level, exactly. She does it separately, or she takes pictures of me out of the, the, the, the house. Then all of a sudden it's a totally different conversation about how tired exactly those kinds of things would be really outrageous. That hasn't happened to us. In particular, what I'm saying, if we had that basis of comparison, then we could realize how out of whack things may actually be for us. And we're just not aware.

Yeah, so and that's where I was going to because yeah, I mean at the end of the day when I say I'm talking about this stuff That's yes, we deal with but yeah other other people don't so I can give you a million exam Because I was just about to say maybe me and my family are the only ones right because my daughter's told my wife one time You know every time daddy goes to the store. They were like four and five. Uh, they, he gets followed. Okay. And I didn't even know my daughters said this. All right. At four and five, they always follow him in the store. Okay. So I can give you a million examples of stuff that we dealt with, right? That, yeah, we have calluses. My wife, she's When we were on vacation and girls were one and two or two and three and, and white women would come up to her and say, are they your kids? Are they yours? You know, and be very sarcastic and nasty. Okay. So I'm just telling you, maybe because we, I, and again, like I said, we build up calluses. My wife had to build up calluses. My wife now sees things that she never saw before, especially since we had kids. Okay. That people say. Or they say, they say slight, so they do microaggressions that she wouldn't even know what a microaggression was before until we had kids, right? So that's what I mean about outrageous. Some of the things that people do or say, um, that you wouldn't get in a typical, regular, uh, equal racial relationship.

And so when I say like putting, building a toolkit for the kids. Because now that's, like I said, that's, that's my life, they're my world, and trying to get them to be ready to deal with those microaggressions. Get them to be able to deal with, you know, not overt aggression, and how that might happen, and from different people as well. You know, so, you know, I, I know we always, a lot of times we talk about race, you start talking about, um, dealing with police and other, other, you know, uh, other sources of authority, but how to deal with those situations. Like how the idea is to come back home, you know, and not to say something or do something that is going to aggravate, you know, so let's have some deescalation strategies if you need to have those kind of things, you know, I want my Children to understand the world a little bit differently. I tell my son all the time, for instance, and he mentioned this on the podcast that I told him that when he is with a group of a racially diverse group of people and something goes down and it goes a little south. To remove himself from the situation because when the police come, they come to him first,

right?

You know, as a six foot biracial, you know, 16 year old, he is going to be the one they ask first or attack or grab or do whatever first. So I'm trying to tell him to be smart, to be aware of what's happening. And if things are going the wrong way to remove yourself from those situations so that you are not caught up in somebody else's mess,

right?

Uh, you know, so there are a lot of things that are happening, but as I said, it is basically now, I'm moving on to making sure that my kids have the tools to deal with those microaggressions or overt aggressions or whatever because I want them to be able to thrive in this world.

Got it. So guys, final thoughts. I want to get from you. What's your final thoughts? What do you want the audience to know about interracial marriage? 57 years. After Loving v. Virginia, Supreme Court, um, makes interracial marriage legal. Brian, I'll start with you.

Well, I think the first thing is to realize that 57 years is just not a long time. It really isn't. And yes, we've come a long way, and I, um, I worry, you know, just based on what we're seeing today politically and otherwise that, uh, you know, 57 years is going to feel a lot closer than it even is, um, so I'm very worried about that. And I think, you know, people need to talk about it. People need to bring it up, bring it to the forefront. Don't be afraid to have conversations about it. Um, the other thing, my, my parting thought is, my goodness, I have learned so much from Robert and Shawn today. I am just, I'm so thankful that I got to be a part of this, just hearing your perspectives. I'm coming away so much wiser. So I, I, I'm just so thankful I was part of this.

It's awesome, buddy. And, and let's be fair though, too. You brought a lot of wisdom as well. Okay. You, you definitely threw some nuggets out there that we all can learn from. So I really appreciate that. Shawn.

Yeah. Um, appreciate that, Brian. Like I said, I'm, I appreciated your, your, your viewpoint. It's a viewpoint we don't hear too often. Um, we'd love to hear more of that, but for me, ah, what do I want people to know? Uh, You know, the funny thing is, um, relationships, family, um, kids, wives, like, it's all hard, like, life is generally not the easiest thing ever, um, but, um, it's not about being black, white, Asian, you know, uh, Latinx, whatever it is, uh, it's about being a person first. Um, and I think for me, with all the things that are happening in the past few years politically, and you know, what's been happening to divide in the country, what we don't see statistically, or what people keep forgetting is that the integration of culturals and races are exponentially happening as well. Um, so there's going to be, the majority is going to be the minority soon. Um, and I, I want to say that I have a tremendous amount of faith in the children today. You know, uh, Robert's Children and Brian's Children and Tony's Children because your children are older than mine. I have a tremendous amount of faith in how they're moving and maneuvering in the world. I'm so hopeful, right? And I believe that they're going to do the right things and make the right choices. I just don't want them to be impacted by the things that we do today. Um, so what I want to leave here in this conversation is that Robert's There is a lot of hope later, right? Let's just not mess it up for them to not have a runway to take off. Um, you know, and we have to understand that we are people first. We have to love one another, no matter who, what ilk or creed you're from. And always start there.

Love it. I love it, my brother. Thank you, Robert. Close us out, buddy.

All right. So Tony, first of all, thank you for the platform, Shawn and Brian. Thank you for sharing. I really, really do appreciate the conversation. Um, So for me, my parting shot is really around not taking for granted the progress that was made. Um, I know that especially in this political and judicial climate, things are some in some cases rolling backwards and we can't allow that to happen because our Children and our Children's Children and everybody else moving forward, um, will be impacted if we allow progress to roll backwards and we don't want that. As far as our families are concerned, our families are loving units and as, as Shawn is saying, you know, we are certainly a melting pot in this country and there's a lot of diversity and that's a strength and we have to make sure that we uphold that strength for everybody, you know, and make sure that, um, everybody, our children in particular have the tool kits and tools ready so that they can go out and deal with the world and really make sure that they have a choice and a voice in how we do things as we move forward. That they need their platforms to be able to speak on these things, to talk to each other, to recognize our differences, celebrate them, and to also not allow them to be caught up. in this political whirlwind that's happening right now where things are looking backwards, you know, we need them to continue to move forward.

Well, thank you, buddy. And I, I, I, um, really feel, um, by you guys coming on and chatting about this, that it's going to help people move forward. Here's the kicker. Um, and y'all kind of said it too, that yes, it's only been 57 years and Brian, you're 100 percent right, which is not a long time. However, in 1967, um, only 3 percent of the country, um, agreed with interracial marriage. In 2024, 96 percent agree with interracial marriage. So, Just to be fair, going back to what you guys, we have made from a mindset standpoint in terms of people approving interracial, I believe, and I, and Noelle can look this up, but I think if I remember correctly, 20 percent of all new marriages are interracial now. Okay. So there, and back to your point, Shawn, I think you said it, or maybe Robert said it that, you know, the country is becoming way more diverse. It's going to be the minority will be the majority who, if you believe whatever in 30 years, whatever the case may be. So, and back to what everyone said, I do agree. I think the kids, um, we're hopeful we have a bright future with our kids because they're growing up in a more diverse world. They're more accepting, but I think the other thing though, too. They're more empathetic, um, of what other kids go through and they can see individuals versus groups. Okay. Which I think is a great way where we're heading. So number one, Brian Stern, Shawn Norville, Robert Towns. Thank you for coming on a Black Executive Perspective Podcast and providing your perspective on this difficult topic. So now I think it's time for Tony's Tidbit. So today's tidbit. It's by Maya Angelou, and it states, love recognizes no barriers. It jumps hurdles, leap fences, penetrate walls to arrive at his destination, full of hope. And you heard that today from Brian, Shawn, and Robert about their relationships and how Solid they are and how they're building their family, not just for today, but for the future. So more importantly, I want to thank you for joining another episode of Black Executive Perspective Podcast. And I want everyone now to listen and incorporate BEP'S called action, which is called L.E.S.S.. L E S S. Our goal is to decrease racism and all the isms. So we want everyone to incorporate L.E.S.S.. L stands for learn. We want you to learn about other different cultures, other different individuals, history. Because by learning, you're going to enlighten yourself and be more aware. Open to other individuals. E stands for Empathy. Once you've learned, now you should be more empathetic to your fellow human being and what they deal with. S stands for Share. You should share what you learn to your friends and family so they can become enlightened as well. And the other S for stands for Stop. It's all everybody's role is to stop discrimination wherever it walks in your path. So if you're at the thanksgiving table and grandpa says something inappropriate You say grandpa. We don't say that. Okay, so if everybody incorporates L.E.S.S. L E S S will build a fairer A more understanding world and everyone will be able to see the change that you want to see. Follow a a Black Executive Perspective podcast wherever you get your podcast. And you can follow our us on our socials of LinkedIn, X, YouTube, uh, Instagram and Facebook @ablackexec for our fabulous guests, Shawn Norville, Brian Stern, Robert Towns, and our fantastic producer who made all this happen. Noelle Miller. I'm Tony Tidbit. We talked about it. We love you. And guess what? We're out.

A Black Executive Perspective.