Welcome to the Creative Switch, the podcast inspiring the sensibly successful to switch on their unexpressed creativity for more fulfilled life. As we start to really put the festive season behind us, there's been lots of noise about how best to set ourselves up for the next 12 months. I've touched on the tension between planning and spontaneity in my latest Bold Types post. I think there's reason for both in a creative life, something which is illustrated beautifully by today's guest choir leader and singing teacher Xenia Davis. Her switching story is a perfect example of how making space to say a spontaneous yes to opportunities as they arise, can take you down an unplanned path and bring joy through creativity to many people's lives. And if you're looking to turn your creative inspiration into action, don't forget to listen right to the end of the episode and catch up with my creative adventures. This is where I share the challenges I encounter and how acting on the nuggets of wisdom I've learnt from my guests and applying those learnings is helping me to move forward in my own creative projects. This time I share what happened one year when I planned to do too much and some advice from West End actor turned author, poet and psychotherapist Richard Tyler about a different approach to make space for your creative activities to flourish. Before we get to that, do remember to head to my website nikkivallance.com, where I've gathered even more insights and advice from my guests in your free guide to seven common creative challenges and how to overcome them. And now it's time for some creative news in the Edge. Since today's conversation is rooted in spaciousness and we're exploring creative identity through the lens of community singing, I've been looking at what's been happening across the uk, where people are making room to create in ways that feel supportive and genuinely possible. One story that stood out comes from Bradford. Creative Lives, an initiative I mentioned in the last episode, awarded micro-grants to more than 50 grassroots groups as part of the Bradford City of Culture, Neighbourhood choirs, youth collectives and small community arts organisations among them. What feels great here is the intention behind the funding. Creative Lives describes the programme as 'making culture more available and accessible all across Bradford', and the whole approach centres on creating conditions where people can take part without needing to fill in an application form or meet criteria. If you lead a choir or any kind of community group, you'll recognise the way a space can shift when people feel welcomed rather than needing to tick a box or attend an audition. It changes how they show up and often how they relate to their own creativity. And in the spring last year, Bingley held a three day community arts festival with an expanded programme of participatory music and open access singing sessions. The organisers spoke about wanting the festival to feel welcoming and low pressure, a place where you could simply turn up and take part. This approach feels generous and creates a sense of ease, the kind that helps people settle into themselves and feel part of something from the moment they enter the room. There's also research that helps explain why these kind of spaces and opportunities matter. The British Psychological Society recently highlighted a study exploring how music supports emotional regulation and connection. One line from the piece stayed with me, 'Music reached a part of him that words no longer could.' It captures something many choir leaders often witness, the way singing can soften the internal noise and help someone reconnect with themselves in a way that feels grounding. Spaciousness, in this sense, is something people feel in their bodies when the environment allows them to let the stresses of the day fall away. So as you think about your own creative life or the spaces you hold for others, there's a thread running through all of this. When the atmosphere is gentle and the expectations are light, people often find more of themselves available. They take steps they didn't expect to take. They connect more deeply. They discover possibilities that weren't even visible before. Spaciousness becomes a kind of invitation, a way of making room for creativity to unfold in its own rhythm. For a more in depth exploration on the art and science of creative living, join in with the conversation at the Bold Types on Substack, where you can find and comment on more of my articles. Or why not message me on Instagram nikki_vallance. Whether you're just starting out or already in the thick of pursuing your creative passion, I'd love to hear from you. And listen next to hear how taking small steps toward a creative passion lead to connection, community and joy for choir leader and singing teacher Xenia Davis. Hello Xenia and welcome to the creative switch. It's lovely to have you here.

Thank you very much. It's wonderful to be here.

First of all, before we go any further, could you just tell everyone who you are and what you do?

Yes. So I'm Xenia Davis. I'm a song leader based in South London and at the moment I run four community choirs and my style of teaching is very much about making singing inclusive to everyone and fighting that myth that you have to be a singer to be able to sing. I think that's something everyone can do and I'm really here to encourage people to engage with it.

Fantastic. Okay. And I've been to one of your workshops and it was brilliant. I just wish you lived a bit closer to me, otherwise I'd be joining one of your choirs. Okay, so that's what you do. Now what we're going to do is delve into a little bit about how you ended up doing that. Can you tell me perhaps the turning points that led you to do what you do now?

Yes, definitely. So it actually started off at a festival one rainy afternoon in West Wales. And I was with a friend of mine who we wanted someone to go inside because it suddenly started raining and there was a singing workshop happening. And I used to sing when I was at school, but all the singing I'd ever encountered until then was off a score and you had to be able to read music and have some kind of musical experience. So we walked into this tent and and there was a singing workshop happening and it sounded amazing and everyone was just singing and the teacher that was leading it at the time was just teaching everything by ear. And it was absolutely amazing. We sounded great within a few moments of going in and it just blew my mind. Cause I'd never seen singing happen in that way in this country at least I'd seen it happen in other countries, but it was just magical for me. It was magical. And I came away from it thinking, oh, maybe that's just like a one off magical thing that's happened at a festival. It's a shame it doesn't happen in the real world as well. Cause that would be great to have more of. And I was talking about it with a friend and she said, oh no, no, there's choirs like that that exist. And it turned out there was one just down the road from where I was living at the time. So I thought, this is amazing. And I went and joined it. You know when something just sort of lights you up and you notice that this is a thing, there's something in here, there's a little glimmer of excitement. And I went absolutely every week. It was a Tuesday evening and I was working at the time for an international development charity and my colleagues knew not to put in late meetings on a Tuesday. They knew if there were any overnight things or training things, I would not be available. And I was really clear, like, Tuesday is when I go and sing. So that went on for about a year and a half. And at the time I loved the singing, but I was really nervous about my voice being heard. I was quite shy about singing out loud in front of people on my own. And I kind of had worked out within the choir that I knew the parts. I'd remembered all the different parts and how they went together. But if anyone ever asked me, oh, how does our part go? I just sort of pretend I didn't know because I didn't want to sing it to demonstrate it to anyone. And then anyway, about a year and a half on from that, a couple of years on from that, my colleagues at work were organizing strategy away residential a couple of days, and it was an international development charity with no budget. And they asked me if I would run a singing workshop on the evening that we were away. And they didn't know that I had this huge hang up about singing in front of people. And so I was kind of in this bit of a dilemma because I thought it would be really fun to do, but felt really scared about doing it and decided just not to tell my colleagues that I was really scared of doing it and did it anyway, which is the best thing to do. Just like pretend, pretend that it's fine. And you've done this loads before. And it was amazing. It went really, really, really well. My colleagues that were there absolutely loved it. And I was just. I was buzzing from it, absolutely buzzing from it. That night, for days afterwards, I just sort of. It just felt amazing. I think possibly partly because I'd overcome that anxiety about singing in front of people, but also just, it was so positively received by people. And there were people in the group that were having this experience of, oh, I've never sung before. But we sounded amazing, a bit like I had in the tent at the festival. And so then the next day we were all in work and they were like, xenia, can you set us up a workplace choir? So I was like, yeah, okay, we'll do that. That sounds great. So I did that for a couple of years and that was wonderful and that was really exciting. And then along that path, a friend of mine had been running a community choir in Streatham and she was leaving London and asked if I would consider taking on her choir.

So I thought, yeah, why not? And that was a Thursday evening and that felt like a bit more of a commitment because with work colleagues you always just say, oh, I've got a meeting that's coming or we can't this week. No one was paying me, so I felt like there was a bit less of a commitment and the idea of having a regular weekly commitment, where you have to be there felt like a bit more of a step. So I started doing that and was getting paid for it and not a lot because it wasn't a big group at the time. But there was suddenly the sense of, oh, this thing that I love doing can actually make me some money. Not enough to live off or pay rent at the time, but you know, it's something that could earn me an income in some way or supplement an income. So I then kind of went away from that and sat with it for a little while and thought about how could I develop that more, but feeling that I would need a little bit more space because I was working full time at the time for it was a different charity by that stage. And I started a process of negotiating with them, cutting to part time. And the process went on for ages. They were quite resistant to it. And in the end we got to a point where I'd asked to go four days a week and they said that wouldn't be possible. And then three days a week and then two days a week and none of this seemed possible. So in the end I said to them, because this was several months on now, I was like, look, I feel like if we can't make this work, I'm going to need to leave and just try it and, and see. And I don't think they quite believed that I would do that. So they said final decision that, we can't afford to lose you. We can't have you down to three days a week, we can't. So we're gonna have to say no to your part time working request. So then I handed in my notice and then I remember getting a bit of a pep talk from a senior member of staff that at the time felt a bit patronizing, like. Oh yeah, yeah. Like lots of people feel like they need to go on, just try their little thing and it doesn't work and you can always come back. So I sort of nodded along politely to this and left anyway and set up a second choir at that point. And then it was really funny. The week that I made that decision to leave, loads of opportunities just sort of arose and a few people put me into workshops and I had a thing happening at Glastonbury and it just suddenly took off in such a strong way that it felt like there wasn't that doubt of whether or not it was the right decision. It just definitely was the right decision. And then I got a part time Job working for music charity as well at the time. And I haven't looked back and since then, that was. That was 2015, so that's 10 years ago now that that happened.

Wow.

And, yeah, it's just. It's amazing. Like, sometimes I sit where I am now and I can't quite believe that this is what I get to do for my job. I feel really, really lucky to have stumbled into it.

Yeah, fantastic. Yeah. Lots of turning points there. And what was occurring to me as you were talking was that it's always easier to look back and go, what were the turning points? Because you can't necessarily recognize them when you're in them. But what occurred to me was that you don't get where you are by doing just one thing. It's always a sequence of steps of one thing and then a little bit more and then this and then that. And you did have a bit of a cliff edge because you had to make the decision to just go for it because you weren't getting cooperation from the organization you were working for at the time. But even if you did manage to do that, at some point, you still would have had to have gone, okay, I'm going to go for it. But each of those steps, they all play a part in getting you where you are. And I think that's a really good lesson for people because I think often someone sitting on the other side thinking, I'd love to do this, but I can't possibly do it because how can I earn money? Is thinking too far ahead. They're thinking about the bit at the end. You just have to accept that it won't happen like that. And you've just got to do each little bit incrementally.

Yeah, yeah.

Have you recognized that in your own story.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And it did feel quite incremental at the time because I think I would never have gone from, oh, I'm running a workplace choir to, I'm just going to stop and give up this and make it my day job. And I think because I'd had that couple of years of experience at the time, so a lot of it was voluntary, so I wasn't getting paid. But then I was sort of able to dip toes in other things. And by the time I made that decision, I'd got enough of the experience that it felt like I wasn't just starting completely from scratch.

Yeah.

And, yeah, it did feel a bit scary. And I live in London, and obviously living costs in London are quite high. But I was, I think I was also quite lucky at the time because I was in rented accommodation and feeling quite a long way off being able to buy anywhere. So there was no option of there being a mortgage. I think if I'd felt like, oh, but I just need to work another couple of years to have enough money, if I was saving for a deposit, that would have changed the game. But I think I was so far away from that stage of my life that it felt like it was a risk that could be taken. And it also felt like, do you know what? People take a year out for all sorts of things. People can take six months off and go traveling to New Zealand. I can take a year off and just see what happens and plug gaps as they happen in that period. Just sort of see it as a sabbatical and just plug as much as you can into that period and see where it takes you.

I think the word risk there is very important because it's our appetite for that. But also you were able to look and see how much of a risk it actually was. It wasn't really a huge risk because of the circumstances that you were in. That's why you were able to do it at that time. I think effectively you've made a switch from one type of job to another where the second one is very much based around creativity. But when people do make a switch, sometimes it's because something is calling to them which sounds like what was happening with you. And sometimes it's because there's something they've got to leave behind that's just horrendous.

Yeah.

And they go, I can't stay there anymore. That's not working for me. So they might move house or they might not just do that, but they might move half around the world or they might move to a different place in the country where maybe then the financials change because it's less expensive or. So there's all sorts of triggers, I think. Do you actually recognize a specific trigger? Not so much in terms of the events that occurred, but something inside you that made you think, actually there's a bit missing. There's something not working for me in terms of my whole self?

Yes. I think when I was working in international development, it felt like it's a great career to get into. When you're UK based, working in international development, you're quite removed from the projects that are happening. And I knew I didn't want to go and live overseas permanently. I wanted my Life to be in the uk. And it was just feeling a little bit like, this is okay, but I couldn't quite work out where I wanted to land. And I think it was a combination of that feeling like, where is this going? I didn't want to end up in management and feel really removed from what was going on. And I wanted to. I loved the work. I used to do a lot of work training young people and supporting young people and taking them overseas. And it felt like if you end up going up that career route, I don't want to be sat in an office reading reports and not seeing any young people and not seeing any projects. I think I'm much more face to face and hands on than that. So that didn't feel like a path I wanted to go on. Couldn't quite work out whether it was gonna fit. But I think that really sat for me in parallel with that singing really, really, really felt powerful and it felt like a way of connecting people in such a powerful way. The thing that I do is all singing without instruments, it's. Without any backing tracks. It's just voices. And there was some really strong messaging there, I think, in that together we can make a sound that we can't make on our own. And that you can be the most amazing singer in the world, but you can only sing one part at a time and some beautiful harmonies can come out. And just the connection that can happen between communities felt really strong. All the kind of hormonal stuff that happens when you sing as well and you get endorphins and oxytocin and just what that does to your mind and your mental health. And I think all of that felt really, really positive and that it was like people were not recognizing the power that singing can have. And it suddenly felt like, oh, hang on, this is what I want there to be more of. This feels like that felt like a calling. And it still does really, really strongly for me now. It's quite interesting because I feel like I'm now in quite a different phase of life. I've got two small children and I teach three evening choirs a week and have taught three evening choirs a week since my youngest was eight months old. And yes, partly because now I do have the mortgage, but also partly because even when I'm leading singing, you still get all those benefits of you're in the moment. And if I'm in the middle of teaching a song and it's in Four part harmony. My head can't be thinking about, oh my goodness, I forgot to put the laundry on. And we need a school uniform shirt for tomorrow and I need to go to Sainsbury's because we haven't got milk. Because you're in the middle of teaching the song so it's proper release. And then you get all the oxytocin that comes from it and it makes you really feel good. And I get that three evenings a week. So when my singers are like, oh, it's amazing. How can you get out three nights a week with small children? Thank you for coming and running this for us. Not entirely selfless because I feel like I also get all the benefits from that, being in that space.

Amazing. Amazing. I can feel it as you're speaking. I can feel the impact that it has on you. Has that on all the participants as well. Something special, though, I think about the difference between a community choir and a more formal, traditional reading music kind, with auditions and all of that sort of thing. And also what you were saying there about you are a face to face person in your old work. Not wanting to be removed from the action, as it were.

Yeah.

It satisfies that part of you, doesn't it? Because you are absolutely in the middle of the action.

Yes.

And it's not the same, I guess, as running a project to, I don't know, help get sanitized water into a remote village somewhere. It's different than that. But it has an impact on all the people who are at your choir and all the people who they know because just in their lives, it will give them that same feeling you had and they go away. And then in their own lives, it's permeating everywhere. So it's not just the people who attend and it's the people who listen to the choir as well. It has a massive impact on community, doesn't it?

Yeah. And even thinking back to, like me of 15 years ago when I used to go to that Tuesday evening choir and come back into work, people could see on a Wednesday morning that I'd been singing the night before. I mean, it sounds really evangelical, but it does. You feel it in your body. It does lift you. And if you've had a kind of rough day at work or just. Or whatever's happening and you're having a bit of a down day. I've had so many people come to me over the years that have said, oh, I nearly didn't come to choir tonight because I just felt like I'm In a bit of a bad mood tonight, or I'm just a bit grumpy or I'm stressed. And then an hour and a half later they say, I'm so glad I came because it's just cut all that bad bit out of my day and it's moved me into a totally different place.

And addictive, very addictive. So actually, I want to talk a little bit more broadly now about the word creativity, so I ask all my guests this question. So what does creativity mean to you?

Yeah, I think it can mean lots of different things, but I think for me there's something really intrinsically human about creativity and about having a space to express almost like the real you. And I feel like in the world there's so many things that we have to do and hoops that we have to jump through and the shopping and the work and the, whatever else is that we're doing in our lives. And I feel like creativity is a space where we can, in whatever way it is for us, we can be our actual, real selves and we can almost connect back to that. The innocence of childhood and the bit that feels real, the bit that we're not doing because someone's told us we've got to have written a report by Tuesday morning at 11 o' clock for a meeting. And I think there's something about the connection that comes with it. A bit like we were just talking about the ripple effect that creativity can have across communities. I think there's something about the mindfulness. The flow of it being in what you're doing and just properly being able to absorb yourself in that. Whatever the format of that creativity is. It could be singing, but it could be writing or pottery or could be any form, but that you're kind of in the flow of it and it's a chance to block out other stuff and just. Yeah, be yourself. I think in that moment.

Yeah, definitely. It's so important, isn't it? I don't know how much television you get the chance to watch with young family and three evenings out with choirs?

Not very much.

But there's a program that's just been on in the UK and it's actually now on at PBS in the us called Human. And it's an anthropologist who's taking us through the evolution of the human species. And I was always fascinated about that anyway, but I was connecting in the story with all the places where if we weren't creative, we would not exist.

Yeah.

Because it's so fundamental to survival in a harsh environment. Your creativity comes out in different ways, but problem solving and creatively thinking around problems is probably the most fundamental. But what was really interesting was the way artistic expression has existed for so long and as symbols of community and connection and it's just. It manifests itself everywhere in our journey.

Yeah.

I thought it was really fascinating. There's certain points at which if we hadn't had that, we would not be here.

Well, there's something about singing and I'm afraid I can't source this quite accurately, but that when we sing we have all the endorphins that kick off give us this kind of positive biological enforcement for singing. And there's an idea that the group singing that we get and the endorphins that we get are the kind of reward for humans to have been in groups and communities and not to be out on their own sort of back in prehistoric times.

Yes.

So yeah, it's sort of serving as the social glue to keep communities together. And then within that comes the safety and security of being in a tribe.

Yeah. And the tribe aspect. It's interesting actually, I was talking to another guest. I think it's season two, Kevin Chesters, and he lectures on creativity, but creativity for storytelling, for within businesses, because he comes from a advertising background. But he talks about there's a very fine line between being an individual and being in the tribe. And all the instincts that come from needing to be in a tribe sometimes can hinder your creativity because you have to be different enough to show your individuality. And I think you were right earlier on. You were talking about it being ultimately an expression of literally who we are. But if you're too different, then people will shove you out and go, you're weird. We don't want you here. So actually this is interesting because this speaks to the community element of the choir. So anybody's welcome?

Anybody's welcome.

How does that manifest itself in terms of who turns up? People have to self select. They have to kind of want to be there. But they might be feeling really nervous about going into a situation where they are different and they might feel they don't belong. How does that manifest itself in the choir setting?

I love these kind of little challenges and problems. I think I guess the first thing to say is that it is a bit self selecting and there's loads of people that aren't singing because they're not coming into the room. So a lot of that work happens before you're even in a room. I often get contacted at the start of term by people who really like the idea of singing. And perhaps they've had a friend that's talked about it, or they've seen something on television or someone that's kind of switched this idea for them that perhaps they could have a go at singing. But they're really, really, really worried about it, because the last time they did it, there were seven at school, and the teacher told them they had to stand at the back and mouth the words and that they couldn't sing. And so I often get people contacting me saying, could I have a couple of lessons before I come and join your choir? Just to check that I can sing. And again, that's quite a small group of people that are going to reach out then to someone who can give them some lessons with a view to joining a choir. And for every person that does that, there'll be thousands that aren't doing that yet. But a lot of it is just helping people to have that confidence, to give it a go. I say everyone who I've done lessons with or who's then come into a choir feels really empowered. It's like when you take any risk in life, anything that's a little bit scary, it might be a bungee jump, it might be something like that. A lot of the time we can get the sense we've kind of pushed the outer limits of what we thought we were and that we're still there and that we're bigger than we thought we were. And that idea of, I think, personal growth comes into it as well. And especially when you're having to overcome quite a lot of anxiety and fight some of those inner voices from a long, long, long time ago, from teachers or parents or friends that laughed at us. I think there's quite a lot of work around that. I think there's a lot more work that needs to be done, because I would love there to be a lot more people emailing me at the start of the term saying, I'm a bit nervous, but can I come anyway? Or not necessarily just emailing me, but emailing other choir leaders or in whatever format that creativity is just that sense that actually, do I have permission? I think there's a really interesting thing with a lot of expressive arts about permission. Who's allowed to do this thing and what skills do I have to have to start it? And I think there could be a lot more done around trying to bring those barriers down. And it's a really interesting one because it's great that we have world class music happening, but sometimes that can also make it seem that if we're not at that standard that it's not valid.

And also I think another thing that sparked in my brain there when you were talking is that none of those people were born able to do what they do at that level.

Yeah, yeah.

Now they had to learn things, they had to fail, they had to practice, they had to. So there's two things there. There's the recognizing that you're comparing yourself to something or someone who spent hours in their lives getting as good as they are. But the other thing is that if you're not trying to become someone who's going to get onto the stage in the proms, it doesn't actually matter how good you are.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's that self judgment, isn't it? Which as you say, often comes from something somebody said to you. But we're doing that ourselves. We're stopping ourselves from taking that risk.

I think there's something really interesting as well about how as adults we feel about getting things wrong. When you see children and they're learning things, they're getting stuff wrong all the time. And that even from when they start speaking. My youngest, my two year old is starting to sing nursery rhymes and lots of words are wrong and that's okay. It doesn't bother her at all. And you start school and you learn to read, but you get lots of the words wrong. And children are just so unfazed by that. And then as adults we sort of move into a world where we feel like. And the world does expect us to be right a lot of the time. So when we're taking up something new, the idea of being not very good at it and getting a lot of it wrong, quite an uncomfortable idea, I think, for. For quite a lot of people. So one thing I do in almost all my warm ups that I do with my choirs at the start of the session is we'll do something and it might be like a tongue twister or it might be some kind of slightly tricky counting singing game where it's designed that it's not really. You can't really do it properly, but you're going to make mistakes and trip up over it because I think a really big part of it is feeling okay and being able to laugh at ourselves and thinking, oh, that didn't quite go right. But that's okay, you're right. We're not at the proms. We haven't got an audience of millions watching us, nothing's gone wrong. And that's kind of putting us in a place where we can learn stuff a little bit less uncomfortably.

Yeah. I don't know whether you've come across this before, but I've talked about it before on the podcast. When I was training as a coach, there's this model which is the stages of learning. The first one is not knowing that you can't do it. So you think, well, that looks good, I'll do that. And then the next one, which is the one that you're talking about, is you are really aware that you really can't do it.

Yeah.

And the thing is, anybody, including all of those world class musicians, had to go through that stage of learning to get to the other side.

Yeah.

So actually embracing that feeling, I mean, it's hard. You have to, you have to talk to yourself about it and go, I'm going to turn up today and not be able to do this thing. And that's okay.

Yeah.

It's quite, quite difficult to overcome that. As an adult, as you say. What do you think about the question of talent, particularly in terms of creative expression? Do you think people have a talent to do things and some people are better at what you're teaching than others, or do we all have the ability?

I think it's really interesting. I think it's a skill. Singing is a skill, but it's not just one skill. There's lots of different skills. So you've got remembering a tune and being able to sing that back. There'll be words in that tune. Probably you've got a rhythm going on in that tune. You've got perhaps some other people singing something a bit different to you. You've got a sense of this is a harmony going on in the room. How is that working out? We might be singing in a different language and there's lots of different things involved in that before we've even got to our own ideas about do I like the sound of my voice? And no one likes the sound of their voice or very few people do. So I think there's not one single skill in singing. There's loads of different things going on in our brains as we're doing it. And naturally, because we're all individual, we're all humans, there'll be different parts of that that different people find easier or harder. So some people find that learning the tune comes really, really easily to them. But the rhythm might be a little bit more complicated or remembering the words might be a bit more complicated. Someone else might see the words and they might go in really, really quickly and another part might be more tricky for them. But all of these things are skills. And with any skill, the more we do it, the better we're going to get. Now there's going to be a limit to that because. So an analogy that I often use is something like football. We could all go and play football. We could go and kick a ball around in a park. We might be playing proper football rules or not, or have the right number of players in a team, or be doing an offside rule or not. And some people in that group are going to have some kind of talent. That might mean that eventually they end up as Premier League footballers, but everyone is doing elements of the game, of football in some kind of level. And I think. I think lots of things work like that. I think singing definitely does and music definitely does. And yes, there will be some people that just find it very, very easy to pick up lots of those elements and can move forward quite quickly, but it doesn't mean that the rest of us can't do it on a slightly different level and that all of those levels are valid. And the same with football. I think it would be a huge loss if football was something that. I mean, I find it really interesting that we have a different way of, as a society of seeing football so singing, but that if football became something that you could only do if you were going to be a professional, or we could just watch on television and everyone else was banned from kicking a football round in the park. And we judged people in the summer.

Why are they playing football? That looks rubbish. That would be a really strange world to live in. So, yes, I think. I think talent does exist, but I don't think it needs to be a barrier to participation.

Why do you think then, that is that something like football is judged differently from the creative arts and creative expression? Because it's. It's interesting, isn't it, that in terms of value. So we value people who are really good actors who entertain us and also maybe stimulate us and make us think and help us grow personally because of something we've watched. But we don't want to pay, you know, necessarily because it costs a fortune for tickets. So there's this, we want it in our lives, but we don't. We think they're very privileged and we don't really understand why they're allowed to do that because, hold on a minute, they're not doing a proper job. So what's going on there, do you think, in terms of creativity and why it's not valued enough.

I think it is really interesting. I think some of it can stem back down to childhood in schools, some of it without wanting to get a big political head on. But I think sometimes what can happen is if you've got six and seven year olds and you tell them that they need to do exams in numeracy and literacy and they're important, and you cancel all other subjects that aren't numeracy and literacy, and then you do that again when Those children are 10 and 11, what you're sort of saying to them is it's important to do reading and writing and it's not important to do the other stuff. So we've got a whole generation of people that have had that message, maybe some more directly than others, kind of enforced. But that is a thing that we've sort of been saying to people for quite a long time. If you look at the state of music education across the country, it's patchy. And there's some areas where it works really, really well. You've got some areas where it doesn't work very well, it's underfunded, you've got situations where. And this isn't just with music, this is with. You can look at other art disciplines and other subjects in school as well. And I think that does send a message out. And then I think you've got parents sometimes that feel that it can be tricky to get a career if you're working in the art sector, so. But I'm not working with people that want careers in the art sector. I'm working with people that are lawyers and doctors and teachers and work in Sainsbury's in the checkout, who come to my choir in the evening. And I think there's a kind of idea that arts and school is leading you to a career in the arts, which it doesn't have to be. It's just about enabling that creativity to continue to flourish alongside the other subjects and to support them. And I think back to some of the stuff we were saying at the beginning about that release from stress. I was talking as an adult, but like the not having to think about your shopping list or the report you've got to send to your boss. But if you're 12 or 16, actually being able to go for a piano lesson or whatever it is that you're doing can be a release from the pressure of exams that you're doing as well, like massively. And I think we could start to see music and other art subjects in that way in schools as something that supports the mental health of young people without it being just a one directional thing to get someone a career in the arts.

Yes, yes, absolutely. And I think that's generally in terms of education, it's actually how we look at education entirely. Because any subject you study could just be because you're interested in it, because that then makes you feel more grounded, more whole.

Yeah.

Allows you to explore, be curious and develop those general skills for life, for dealing with challenges that occur. And none of those things are necessarily a job. All of those, all of those skills are things you just need to live. I wish I could change the education system, but we can't do that as individuals. But I think if there's enough of us saying, and in fact there's plenty of evidence, as you've said, to say how incredible music is for well being, for attainment, even music has been shown to help people because of the structure of it and the way it works. And it doesn't have to be, oh gosh, I can't read music, therefore I can't play the piano. Because no, anybody can play the piano, they can do it by ear. So yeah, I think it's interesting. My other theory is that the reason my parents are concerned about their children maybe going into an arts based career is because art is very subjective. And so you can't guarantee that you're going to be needed in the world if you decide to be a painter. You can pretty much guarantee you're going to be needed in the world if you want to be an accountant or a doctor or a lawyer. But that's because society has structured our world so that those things are needed. If we made the decision that we think it's needed, then we would do it. And if we made the decision that it wasn't because you all had to become an opera singer on the world stage again, it would then be different. But it's very much about subjectivity. So write a brilliant book. People can love the book, other people will hate it.

Yeah. And I think there's something interesting in there as well about being comfortable with rejection as well. I think you get a lot of that in a lot of creative arts is that, yeah, you'll do something and some people will love it and some people will just say that's absolutely not for me. And the same with singing. Here I am like chatting on about singing. There'll be plenty of people that just are not into singing. And don't want to be, and that's okay. Maybe they're into other things as well. And I feel like so long as there's something that is there for you, that's okay. But in the process, it could be that someone comes to a choir and thinks, oh, my God, this is awful, and might even say that to me, and that's okay if they want to go and do something else. So you're kind of putting yourself in that position where you could face criticism over something that feels quite personal to you, which maybe you don't have quite so much in other industry. I mean, it's different, isn't it?

I just find the whole thing fascinating. I am exploring through the podcast and through my substack, which is called the Bold Types, I'm exploring the art and the science of creative living through any lens that is necessary. So it could be neuroscience, it could be anthropology, it could be lived experience, it could be culture, whatever it is, education. And it's just. I'm trying to answer these questions which keep popping up in my head, like, why don't we value it more? Why is it something that isn't valued? Why is it not taught? Why is it not fundamental? It is fundamental. So why do we not recognize it as that? You know, all those questions? So, yeah, I'm always curious to know what people think about those questions, because I'm just gathering the evidence. So, yeah, just talking about what's happening with your business or your plans are for 2026. What's going on?

Yes,that's a really good question. So, as of now, I've got slightly more time on my hands. So until now, I've been kind of shoehorning this slightly creative work of mine into not very many hours a week around a lack of childcare. But now I've got a little bit more. My eldest is in school, my younger one is in a bit more nursery. So I suddenly feel like I've got a bit more time and space to go beyond. I've been running four choirs regimented. Like, you're all doing the same songs. And I feel it's quite an exciting point now because I've got a bit more spare time in the day to start thinking about what could I do? What could be a bit more collaborative, what directions can I take things in? So I've got a couple of singing retreats planned this year, so there's one coming up in April and then one coming up in November. I'll take a group of singers away to a woodland and I mean I think I've just talked about how amazing it is to sing in a choir. But a downside to singing in a choir is you get all this connection and then everyone has to go home and get the last bus or whatever it is to get back home afterwards. So I think a real beauty of doing it over a couple of nights in a woodland retreat center is that all that connection that you get, people can stay there overnight and then stay there the next night and it kind of bubbles into a lot more which is quite exciting. So I'm planning a couple of those things. Hopefully a few performances coming up with choirs over the summer. So we normally do a few summer festival performances and so on. I planning a flash mob with my choirs which is quite exciting. I haven't done one for a while but what I'll do is I'll teach them all a song. Often it's a kind of more well known song that people know and then we'll just kind of find a space somewhere in central London and just start singing it. And it's. I quite like stuff like that because it's for the passersby that are there. You can never quite tell who's in a choir and who's not. And often lots of people just join in with us and then it sort of finished within about three minutes and then everyone just kind of wanders off and then.

Love it.

Yeah, they're really good fun. So hopefully one of those coming up later on in the spring as well.

And you also, you do go to Glastonbury, don't you?

I haven't been for a little while to Glastonbury. Yes, I did used to. That was quite an interesting project. So it was about using singing as a way of connecting people with ideas about the farm a little bit more. So we'd go around and sing songs in sometimes in quite small groups but we'd all be dressed in red and then people at the festival would ask what we're doing and little pop up performances and then it would be a chance to talk to people and say well actually we're here to raise awareness that we're on a farm and. And animals use the farm through the rest of the year. And actually if you're leaving cigarettes in the grass, the toxins in the cigarette are going to pollute the grass and that can have. All cows can swallow them and it's just. Yeah, I think that's another thing we haven't really talked about, but how you can use singing and creativity as a tool to engage people on other social issues.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah.

And what about Stonehenge?

Oh, yeah, Stonehenge. Yes. I'm going back to Stonehenge. So I was there Summer Solstice and Winter Solstice last year, and I'm back again for both the solstices this year, too. So what that is, is at the sunrise on Summer Solstice, we will gather in the centre of the Stones and sing some songs. So there's a group of singers, the Shakti Singhs Choir, that I'll have worked with and taught some of the songs to in advance. But the idea is that all the songs are easy for people to pick up. So we had this amazing moment at Summer Solstice last year when the sun had risen and it was a beautiful sunny day that we could see the sunrise really clearly. So there was a lot of energy. Everyone was quite excited. And then I taught a song by the wonderful Katie Rose Bennett, and it was just. It's quite a calm, grounding song and we sang it through for ages. Lots of people in the Stones joined it. I mean, there's a few hundreds and thousands of people actually within the Stones. Not everyone was singing, but a lot of people did. And I think that was really moving, actually. So afterwards, when we came out, there were lots of people that came up to me and said how it felt like having the chance to sing had kind of really grounded them in that experience and that it had given them a focus and just sort of reconnected them to the earth and the land and kind of thinking about the place we were standing in and its significance and that the song had just really stuck with people. I had about two hours after we'd done it, we were nearly back in the car park and someone came running up to me and he was like, oh, my goodness, that song was amazing. And he wanted to sing it back to me and he did. And he'd remembered it all two hours before. But, see, it's really special. Like, again using singing and music in that way, just to connect people to a moment and provide that sense of. Yeah, connection and reflectiveness, I think, is really a privilege.

Fantastic. So, like I said, I wish you lived close to me, because I'd be there every. Join all three choirs. I don't belong to a choir at the moment. This is what it's telling me. It's telling me I need to go and find one.

Yeah, you do.

Thank you so much for your time. It's been brilliant talking to you.

Thank you.

Good luck with everything.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Take care. You too.

Bye.

Gosh, what a great conversation. I loved being reminded about the life affirming, confidence boosting and empowering nature of community singing and how each step forward in Xenia's switch in direction came when she gave herself the space to say yes to opportunities even when she wasn't sure she could do something. By listening to her intuition and giving things a go, she has created a career which was never planned but now makes complete sense. What a great way to find joy for yourself and in the work that you do. To join one of our choirs or events or to get in touch. The links are in the show notes now it's creative adventures time and I promised to share some advice from West End actor turned author, poet and psychotherapist Richard Tyler about a different approach to making space for your creative activities. This time last year I had grand plans for all sorts of creative projects. I mapped everything out almost too well and was convinced that I could fit it all in. I knew I wanted to record, produce and release another season of the podcast, launch the bold types publication, finish the novel and more. On paper and in the plan, it all looked possible, especially as I was working with Supportal and I'm shouting out here to Chloe and the team who helped me to systemise my work and define my portfolio of creative activities. With great intentions, we set out to build a sustainable way of working and communicate everything through the newly designed and easy to follow website. About halfway through the year, I began to get the feeling that I had overestimated my capacity slightly, but the biggest issue was that the work was gradually getting further and further behind the plan. As autumn approached, I realised I hadn't built in any room for the unexpected. Unforeseen successes and challenges came along, both in work and in life, but there just wasn't any time or energy left to tackle everything, especially as the podcast production phase, enjoyable as it is, leaves little or no space for anything else. And as a quick reminder if a podcast is a creative adventure you'd like to begin, check out the links for Alitu, my podcast recording and editing software, and captivate my podcast hosting software. I really couldn't do it without these great, easy to use tools. So back to planning. I had to let some things go and do things differently. But how? That's where Richard's words come in. I remembered he'd said we need to be more like jazz instrumentalists improvising and creating space between the notes. If you listen to my last creative adventure in episode nine, you'll know I still have lots planned for this year too. The difference is this time I'm deliberately leaving space for the unexpected. Also, unusually for me, I actually started thinking about how I wanted this year to feel several months before the arbitrary cutoff when the date ticks around to a new calendar year. I let the ideas for a looser plan sit in the background and guide my choices of what to say yes to. I asked myself what would be the non negotiables? How could I build in the spaciousness I needed while still being ambitious? You can read all about this approach in my latest Bold Types post. If you want to know more, you can also find support by meeting people in the creative community there by subscribing to the Bold Types on Substack. Or of course, say hello and share your thoughts on Instagram. The links are in the show Notes. Tell me all about your plans or stories of what you do when your creative adventures don't quite follow the plan. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Creative Switch. If you enjoyed it, please do leave a review over on podchaser.com and if you've got any questions, please let me know on Instagram nikki_vallance. Tune in next time where I'll be chatting to one of my favourite new writers who until very recently was a specialist pediatric trauma surgeon, Louise Morris. Until then, keep creating and remember why survive when you can thrive.