Speaker: 00:00:00

I do really find in this story

a sort of warning for me.

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Not not that I know exactly what went down

and how they

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why things happened the way they did.

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But for me, I, I take it as a warning

not to

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embrace an identity

with an earthly kingdom

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or even an ethnic,

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identity too closely

the gospel is is beyond all that

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Well,

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Lucas, welcome back to the Anabaptist

Perspectives podcast.

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We’ve just done a previous episode

with you on the early church in the East,

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or like what

we would think of as Middle East

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Iran, you know, India,

some of these places and like,

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really, really early church history,

you know, right after the, the,

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crucifixion of Jesus on up

through and pulling some lessons

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and some interesting perspectives

from them.

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but one of the questions I have out of

that, is we talk about this,

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it seems like a pretty established,

you know, church.

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or,

Christianity in this part of the world.

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And that's not the case anymore.

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So a lot of what I want to talk through in

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this episode is like,

what happened to these people?

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but before we jump too deep into that,

maybe just a quick overview

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of kind of bring our audience up

to speed of who we're talking about.

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What time in history this is.

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And then, yeah, we could go into, okay,

where did these people go?

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You know, they're not there anymore.

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So yeah, you want to fill us,

fill us in there.

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Yeah. Thanks, Reagan.

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So right from the first days

of the church, it existed,

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of course, in Jerusalem, in Judea

and Samaria, but it started to spread

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to Antioch and from there west,

but also it spread to Edessa,

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which is in kind of northern Syria,

southern Turkey and east.

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and so the first century of the church

we have Christians in Iraq, in Turkey,

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in, probably in India as well.

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they they weren't

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considering themselves

necessarily a separate church from,

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the Roman church, for instance,

because we don't really have

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that's not how people thought about church

back in those days, but they became,

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they're known today

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because of the Syriac language

which which they spoke and wrote in,

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as well as eventually

the historical, path would lead them,

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in a different direction

than the Western church.

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So you mentioned a lot of countries

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that don't really have many Christians

in them at all.

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You know, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Iran etc..

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But what happened to these people?

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Where did they go?

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Yeah, that's a long story.

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So if we would trace the timeline forward,

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starting from, let's say, the year 100,

when we have record of a church

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of churches

in those places in Iraq and Syria,

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those churches continued in fellowship

with the rest

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of the Christian world

for hundreds of years.

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And now as, you may remember,

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there was sporadic persecution

in the Roman Empire during that time.

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So sporadic doesn't

mean insignificant or minor.

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It just means that it might last for

a decade or even just a couple of years,

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which is plenty of time

for people to be killed, to be exiled, to

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be tortured and so on.

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So they're very serious persecutions.

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Meanwhile, Christians started to go over

into the Persian Empire.

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Persia was the other one of the other

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great world

powers at the time, right alongside Rome,

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and they kept fighting

over the borderlands.

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And there were a lot of Christians who

lived on the borders of Rome and Persia.

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in the year 313

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A.D.,

Constantine issued the Edict of Milan,

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which was the edict saying

Christians wouldn't be persecuted anymore.

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In the Roman Empire.

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that actually took a little time to work

its way throughout the Roman Empire.

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But, up until that point, there

hadn't been a significant

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or serious persecutions,

probably in the Persian Empire.

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But around the year 340,

as Christianity is now being proclaimed

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as the favored religion of the Romans,

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there are lots of Christians

living in Persia.

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And the Persian Shah,

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is saying, wait a minute,

I guess these people are fifth column.

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They must be in the in the

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they must be working for the Romans,

or at least they potentially could.

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And I think that Constantine at one point

sends a letter to, the,

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Shah to the leader of the Persian Empire,

saying,

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you know, be nice to these guys,

be nice to the Christians.

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And that actually doesn't help very much.

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So it, was there this sense

that, okay, Christianity is all wrapped up

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with the Roman political system

and Rome being our enemy,

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and then

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Christians get caught in the crossfire

between those two empires, basically.

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That's right.

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And so just for context,

there had been Christians

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who just moved into the Persian Empire

because, well A, it was their home or B,

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they just decided to.

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But then as Rome and Persia fought,

sometimes, Persia would conquer

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territory.

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And in the age old tradition, they would

they would exile people.

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They would remove them from their homeland

and take them back to Persia.

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So there were there were several

batches of Christians who'd come over.

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So now, around the year 340,

there was a very severe persecution

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that started in the Persian Empire.

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Lots of Christians killed.

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It was particularly severe.

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And, you know, historians debate exactly

the ins and outs, but it was particularly

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severe for people who had converted

from Zoroastrianism to Christianity.

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It was one thing to be a Christian

and move to into Persia.

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But it was another thing to be to be

particularly a nobleman who converted

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from, the official Zoroastrian

religion to Christianity.

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Persia and Rome continued to

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be rivals,

right up until the Islamic conquest.

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And, Christianity did achieve

some kind of recognition in Persia.

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It was never

an official religion in Persia.

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So this is one thing we can say

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about Eastern Christianity

or Syriac Christianity.

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It was never

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the state religion, that it was

never the official religion of any state.

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Oh, and that would be pretty different

from what you're seeing

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in the more western

branches of Christianity, right?

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Where it's with Constantine and

and later on,

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you know, it's very tied

in with government, politics and empire.

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Is that, okay?

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it becomes,

first of all, the favored religion.

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In 325, Constantine

sort of sponsored the Council of Nicaea.

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that's that's a

I feel like that's a pretty profound piece

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right there,

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you know,

especially for us as Anabaptists,

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as we kind of point to that as like, oh,

that's when the church got really mixed

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in with world powers,

you know, worldly powers and so forth.

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And unfortunately, unfortunately,

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the picture is actually a little

more complicated than one would would

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maybe wish for from just that statement of

it was never an official religion.

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They, the Christians, were in the courts

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of the Shah during periods

when there wasn't severe persecution.

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They received, official permission

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to have their, their organization

and so on.

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So and in some places like Armenia,

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Christianity became the official religion

before it did in Rome.

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So Rome was not the first

Christian empire, even even in Edessa.

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In the year around 200, we have a king

putting a cross on his coins.

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so we don't know what kind of Christian

or if he was a Christian.

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he may have just sort of been,

a religious, connoisseur.

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And picked up some symbolism

and put it on his coins.

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We don't know why, Edessa didn't

become a Christian city at that time.

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So Christians were comfortable

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speaking to power, being in the presence

of power, working with the state.

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But they were never doing.

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They were never conducting their missions

under the official

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with the official force

of the Persian government.

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And in fact, then as we progressed

further into the four hundreds,

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these churches that are either

in, in the Western Roman or,

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sorry, the Eastern Roman Empire

or the western part of the Persian Empire,

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there arises a controversy

with some of the rest of the church

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over the way

you describe the incarnation of Christ.

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And so a man named Nestorius

is excommunicated, along with

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all the churches that agreed with him,

which is kind of the whole East.

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And so those churches

wound up going their own way.

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They were already going their own way

before this.

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but the church of the East then becomes

separated from the Roman Empire.

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And the churches in the Roman Empire.

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So, so

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there was a a division in the church.

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This happened around

431 of the Council of Ephesus,

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where a large portion

of the eastern church left.

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Then over the same issue,

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the emperor in in Constantinople now

and the

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what would later become called the Greek

Orthodox Church or the Byzantine Church.

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They were trying to heal this rift

and achieve a compromise,

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and what wound up happening was

the church of the East didn't come back,

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and also the people

who had been most energetic about

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resisting the church of the East.

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They also left the Orthodox Church

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because they felt like the Orthodox Church

was compromising too much.

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And when I say Orthodox Church,

they all called themselves Orthodox.

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But what we know today

as the Byzantine Orthodox Church.

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And so you have now kind of three groups,

three major

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groups with small groups within them.

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in the East you have the church of

the East or known as the Nestorian Church.

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You have the Byzantine Orthodox Church,

and you have what we might

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call the Syrian Orthodox Church

or the, miaphysite

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church and miaphysite comes from the way

they talked about the nature of Christ.

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The thing to know about these

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is that the doctrinal differences

really are, not that great.

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They really can come together.

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It's they had different

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ways, different ways of emphasizing

and talking about the nature of Christ

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in the East.

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They talked more about Christ's

relationship with his father,

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like the fact that he was a son,

that he was a mediator,

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that he was a servant of the father,

which is biblical.

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in, the, the miaphysite church,

they tended to talk

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a lot more about the divine nature.

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So the word became

flesh. And so this whole,

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it was, all the

discussion was about the divine nature,

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but they had different ways

of emphasizing aspects of the incarnation.

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and so, of course,

it was also a power struggle.

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It wasn't purely doctrinal,

but they did care about doctrine.

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And they,

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they made it,

it was worth splitting the church

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for those doctrinal definitions for them.

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the miaphysite church

or the Syrian Orthodox

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Church was now also without state power.

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they were at times

persecuting other Christians.

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At times they were persecuted.

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And, again,

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some things about that should trouble us,

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but also should, it's notable

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that in their outcast status,

they were tremendous missionaries.

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They were they were zealous.

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They traveled,

one of their leaders, Jacob Baradaeus

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traveled, hundreds of miles by foot.

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He wouldn't take a donkey

or horse and ordaining,

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church leaders

and strengthening their church.

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And so, they wound up,

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also spreading the gospel

to new areas and new places.

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So the outsider status of the church

of the east or the Nestorian Church

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and the, the Syrian Orthodox Church

or the miaphysite church

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didn't inhibit and maybe even kind

of accelerated their spread.

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So all this is

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going on, we're starting to see the church

in some places, especially in the West,

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getting much more tied to worldly kingdoms

and so forth.

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That doesn't seem like that was happening

as much in the East is what you're

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what you're outlining.

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but then ultimately, yeah,

we go to say somewhere like Syria today

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and there's just not nearly what you were

just describing is not really the case.

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So where where's this story change?

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So I wonder if we should look at the story

as sort of,

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cautionary tale of success.

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the church,

of course, in the four hundreds

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00:12:15,985 --> 00:12:18,988

with the Emperor sanction

in, in the Roman Empire

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was rapidly becoming, if not already,

a majority of the population.

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A similar thing was happening

even without the emperor's

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blessing in Persia and the Persian Empire,

so that in the six hundreds,

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00:12:32,334 --> 00:12:36,797

when the Muslim,

the Muslims invade and overthrow

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the Persian Empire, they're dealing

with a majority Christian population.

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And so,

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we can only imagine how that affected

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church, how it felt to go to church

with a majority of your neighbors

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versus a rather smaller minority

who were really devoted.

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And that's not to say that

there weren't many,

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Christians who really loved the Lord

during that time,

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but the nature of the church

did start to shift.

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And you see, church administration

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00:13:05,409 --> 00:13:08,412

looking a lot more like politics,

more like government.

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but even

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00:13:11,248 --> 00:13:14,710

even after the Muslim invasion

of all these areas,

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there continued to be really a Christian

majority, probably for quite a while.

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We don't have hard numbers.

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00:13:20,591 --> 00:13:24,428

People kind of extrapolate

from the numbers we do have differently.

246

00:13:25,513 --> 00:13:29,975

it's it's a common misconception

that the Muslims came in the six hundreds

247

00:13:29,975 --> 00:13:34,104

and the church just crashed down,

and that was all you convert to Islam

248

00:13:34,104 --> 00:13:34,855

at the point of a sword?

249

00:13:34,855 --> 00:13:36,816

Actually, the Muslims initially,

250

00:13:36,816 --> 00:13:40,569

and you know better than about this

than I do, but they initially really

251

00:13:40,569 --> 00:13:44,573

didn't want everybody to become Muslim

because they could use outsiders,

252

00:13:45,282 --> 00:13:47,993

people who weren't Muslim for tax

purposes.

253

00:13:47,993 --> 00:13:52,164

There were benefits,

they could tax them higher and etc., etc..

254

00:13:53,332 --> 00:13:55,042

nonetheless,

the church continued to spread.

255

00:13:55,042 --> 00:13:57,628

So in the year in, in the eight hundreds,

256

00:13:57,628 --> 00:14:00,714

we have the church of the East

known as the Nestorian church.

257

00:14:01,924 --> 00:14:06,345

they're baptizing

what they call Catholicos in Tibet,

258

00:14:06,637 --> 00:14:10,766

and they have their strong presence

in Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, China,

259

00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:14,144

and they're in Sri Lanka.

260

00:14:14,144 --> 00:14:17,147

So they're just right

all all through Asia.

261

00:14:17,481 --> 00:14:20,025

And, They're they're talking

with Buddhists

262

00:14:20,025 --> 00:14:23,487

or talking with Daoists

and engaging in dialog.

263

00:14:23,487 --> 00:14:27,116

So we see something there,

which is, is maybe, the,

264

00:14:27,241 --> 00:14:30,286

the counterpart to in the last episode,

we talked about

265

00:14:30,828 --> 00:14:33,747

how these folks were kind of

they took Christianity really,

266

00:14:33,747 --> 00:14:36,750

really seriously,

and their lives were anything but easy.

267

00:14:36,959 --> 00:14:38,586

Asceticism was a strong trait.

268

00:14:38,586 --> 00:14:41,672

And they

they made the Christian life so hard

269

00:14:42,214 --> 00:14:45,384

for themselves

that it looked attractive to people.

270

00:14:45,384 --> 00:14:47,553

It was

it was something you would want to be.

271

00:14:47,553 --> 00:14:49,263

But along with that, they also.

272

00:14:49,263 --> 00:14:53,183

And these centuries, like we're talking

600, 700 or 800,

273

00:14:53,851 --> 00:14:57,688

they were also translating Christian ideas

274

00:14:57,688 --> 00:15:00,566

not only into the languages

of the people that they were going to,

275

00:15:00,566 --> 00:15:03,152

but what we would call it

today, contextualizing.

276

00:15:03,152 --> 00:15:07,072

They were using Chinese

philosophical language to describe,

277

00:15:07,698 --> 00:15:11,660

what Jesus did

and coming to, in his incarnation,

278

00:15:12,244 --> 00:15:16,373

they,

sometimes used symbols that came from,

279

00:15:16,957 --> 00:15:20,127

the culture that they were going to,

the symbols that we would

280

00:15:20,127 --> 00:15:23,130

maybe associate

with with Daoism, let's say, or Buddhism.

281

00:15:23,339 --> 00:15:26,550

they would use those

as a way to explain Christianity.

282

00:15:26,550 --> 00:15:27,301

And so,

283

00:15:28,969 --> 00:15:30,930

without without being able to,

284

00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:32,848

to know

exactly how that worked out on the ground,

285

00:15:32,848 --> 00:15:36,352

we don't know exactly to what extent they

were faithful to the Christian message,

286

00:15:36,727 --> 00:15:41,941

but they were very happy to accommodate

other cultures in their,

287

00:15:42,608 --> 00:15:44,777

taking the gospel.

288

00:15:44,777 --> 00:15:47,154

So they they spread far and wide.

289

00:15:47,154 --> 00:15:52,534

They can maintain a strong majority in

many areas that were under Muslim rule.

290

00:15:53,077 --> 00:15:56,121

And occasionally there were some problems

and there were some persecution

291

00:15:56,121 --> 00:16:00,584

under Islam,

but not so much until at least,

292

00:16:00,626 --> 00:16:04,213

in Philip Jenkins book

The Lost History of Christianity,

293

00:16:04,755 --> 00:16:07,549

he ascribes a lot of the sort of downfall

294

00:16:07,549 --> 00:16:10,719

of the churches

in these areas to the Mongol invasion.

295

00:16:10,719 --> 00:16:14,556

So the Mongols were they called themselves

the scourge of God.

296

00:16:15,307 --> 00:16:17,643

They came from tribes

that had actually been,

297

00:16:18,852 --> 00:16:20,729

had some evangelism.

298

00:16:20,729 --> 00:16:24,483

And so they had some Christian concepts,

even if they weren't really Christian yet.

299

00:16:25,317 --> 00:16:28,278

And the Mongols came sweeping through Asia

300

00:16:28,278 --> 00:16:33,575

and, just devastating cities

like Edessa, cities like, cities

301

00:16:33,575 --> 00:16:38,622

that were, like Merv,

which is in Central Asia, Cities

302

00:16:38,622 --> 00:16:42,668

that had a strong Christian presence,

but also just lots of people in general.

303

00:16:43,335 --> 00:16:45,212

just massacring people.

304

00:16:45,212 --> 00:16:47,548

But the Mongols were.

305

00:16:47,548 --> 00:16:49,675

Their onslaught was horrific.

306

00:16:49,675 --> 00:16:52,219

And so,

307

00:16:52,219 --> 00:16:55,222

but and yet they were

they at least consider themselves

308

00:16:56,390 --> 00:16:59,977

kind of Christian sometimes, or at least

they were influenced by Christian ideas.

309

00:17:00,394 --> 00:17:03,897

And so you have this strange mix

where the most horrific

310

00:17:03,897 --> 00:17:07,067

fighting force on earth is sweeping

through your country,

311

00:17:07,693 --> 00:17:12,322

devastating, you know, whole cities,

ancient cities, and

312

00:17:12,573 --> 00:17:16,869

and the Christians are going, well, maybe

this will be better than the Muslims.

313

00:17:18,037 --> 00:17:19,955

And a few

314

00:17:19,955 --> 00:17:24,001

of the Mongols, at least family members

of the Mongol rulers do go to church.

315

00:17:24,668 --> 00:17:27,671

And so there's at least a perception

316

00:17:27,671 --> 00:17:30,758

in the general population

that the Christians are pro Mongol.

317

00:17:31,425 --> 00:17:36,180

Whoa, okay, I could see that being that

that could cause some problems.

318

00:17:36,472 --> 00:17:38,807

You know, for the Christians for sure.

319

00:17:38,807 --> 00:17:41,602

You know, of course,

we're just generalizing here

320

00:17:41,602 --> 00:17:45,439

that there was no doubt

the people who were whose family members

321

00:17:45,439 --> 00:17:48,442

were slaughtered by the Mongols,

weren't in favor of that.

322

00:17:49,485 --> 00:17:52,488

and many, many Christians

lost their lives to the Mongols.

323

00:17:52,613 --> 00:17:55,324

But that was a bit of a tipping point

324

00:17:55,324 --> 00:17:58,327

when, in response to that,

325

00:17:58,327 --> 00:18:01,789

there was, a concerted effort

by the Muslim authorities,

326

00:18:01,789 --> 00:18:05,084

which hadn't happened before, to eradicate

327

00:18:05,751 --> 00:18:09,171

at least to close down churches,

to tear down monasteries.

328

00:18:09,588 --> 00:18:13,509

Jenkins, mentions

that this is talking about Egypt now, but,

329

00:18:13,926 --> 00:18:18,722

there was there had been a time

when the monasteries in Egypt were so,

330

00:18:19,014 --> 00:18:21,725

so well-established that you could walk

331

00:18:21,725 --> 00:18:25,229

hundreds of miles

from south of Cairo down to,

332

00:18:25,229 --> 00:18:29,233

I think, close to the

the cataract of the Nile.

333

00:18:29,983 --> 00:18:31,819

it was several hundred miles.

334

00:18:31,819 --> 00:18:32,569

You could walk there

335

00:18:32,569 --> 00:18:36,073

the whole way in the shade of the gardens

of the monasteries.

336

00:18:36,949 --> 00:18:40,577

Well, now that that those were all broken

down, those were all destroyed.

337

00:18:41,203 --> 00:18:43,914

and it's just a

338

00:18:43,914 --> 00:18:46,458

it's just a sore story to sit with.

339

00:18:46,458 --> 00:18:48,127

Yeah, it's a sad story.

340

00:18:48,127 --> 00:18:50,963

And, you know, there's not a real,

341

00:18:52,798 --> 00:18:54,758

bright,

342

00:18:54,758 --> 00:18:57,761

resolution to this story because,

343

00:18:58,804 --> 00:19:01,473

yes, no doubt

many of the Christians in these churches

344

00:19:01,473 --> 00:19:04,977

were at this point cultural Christians

or nominal Christians.

345

00:19:06,603 --> 00:19:08,564

it's hard with which we should’nt presume

346

00:19:08,564 --> 00:19:11,567

to judge

that from this historical distance.

347

00:19:11,733 --> 00:19:14,444

But their their traditions,

their monasteries,

348

00:19:14,444 --> 00:19:16,446

their beautiful churches

that are just been wasted

349

00:19:16,446 --> 00:19:20,117

and it's the destruction of,

of a tradition and a culture,

350

00:19:21,910 --> 00:19:26,123

and it that didn't mean the extermination

of Christianity.

351

00:19:26,373 --> 00:19:29,751

Even today, in all these places,

there are some Christians,

352

00:19:30,210 --> 00:19:34,590

with Afghanistan

probably being, almost an exception,

353

00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:38,427

but the churches that are

there have suffered repeated,

354

00:19:38,927 --> 00:19:44,474

Attacks

and repeated campaigns against them,

355

00:19:44,474 --> 00:19:49,313

including by the Ottomans and,

the Turks in the 20th century.

356

00:19:49,855 --> 00:19:53,150

and also other groups as well. So,

357

00:19:54,902 --> 00:19:57,070

what happened to them? I,

358

00:19:57,070 --> 00:20:00,866

I'd be interested in hearing your comments

on what you've seen there today.

359

00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:04,912

Well yeah it's

I mean it's a really hard question

360

00:20:05,746 --> 00:20:06,705

because.

361

00:20:06,705 --> 00:20:08,707

Yeah the amount of Christians across,

362

00:20:08,707 --> 00:20:12,336

I would think more of the Middle East

is how I frame it I guess myself.

363

00:20:12,336 --> 00:20:18,217

But yeah, the numbers have just incredibly

declined even even in the last 50 years.

364

00:20:19,384 --> 00:20:20,802

it was definitely a minority.

365

00:20:20,802 --> 00:20:23,513

But it's become much more so of minority.

366

00:20:23,513 --> 00:20:25,599

You take something like Iraq,

you know that.

367

00:20:25,599 --> 00:20:28,602

I don't remember the numbers

off the top of my head, but the percentage

368

00:20:28,810 --> 00:20:31,855

of decrease in the last, 30 years

369

00:20:31,855 --> 00:20:34,858

is, is almost hard to believe.

370

00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:37,027

It's like absolutely phenomenal.

371

00:20:37,027 --> 00:20:40,405

How many Christians

have either been driven out

372

00:20:40,405 --> 00:20:43,408

or killed or left as refugees or whatever?

373

00:20:43,408 --> 00:20:45,744

and that,

a lot of that's more current day politics,

374

00:20:45,744 --> 00:20:48,163

but it feels like kind of a continuation

of something

375

00:20:48,163 --> 00:20:49,998

that you're saying

that started a long time ago

376

00:20:49,998 --> 00:20:53,168

and has been just slowly

chipping, chipping, chipping away

377

00:20:53,835 --> 00:20:56,755

at the amount of Christians

or Christian influence, Christian culture,

378

00:20:56,755 --> 00:20:57,631

whatever you want to call it, you know?

379

00:20:57,631 --> 00:20:59,091

Of course,

you have to be careful with that.

380

00:20:59,091 --> 00:21:00,384

Some of it, it's more culture

381

00:21:00,384 --> 00:21:03,845

Christians than real Christians, Sure,

but regardless.

382

00:21:04,346 --> 00:21:07,557

it does feel like it's just been

this steady, like chipping away at it

383

00:21:07,766 --> 00:21:10,227

for a very long time,

which makes me pretty sad.

384

00:21:10,602 --> 00:21:12,938

and this was something when

we were, again, when we were having lunch,

385

00:21:12,938 --> 00:21:15,065

a couple days ago,

we were talking about this some,

386

00:21:15,065 --> 00:21:17,192

and you said, I’m trying to remember,

387

00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,946

that this whole idea that that we have

about Christianity's

388

00:21:20,946 --> 00:21:24,700

steady march forward idea,

but do you want to talk about that

389

00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:27,703

a little bit

and explain what you mean by that phrase?

390

00:21:28,537 --> 00:21:31,373

Well,

a lot of our historical consciousness, I'm

391

00:21:31,373 --> 00:21:36,503

speaking as a Western, as an Anabaptist,

and as a young person, we

392

00:21:37,587 --> 00:21:39,631

we don't have a very rich

393

00:21:39,631 --> 00:21:43,552

historical,

background to our thinking about missions.

394

00:21:43,552 --> 00:21:49,308

And so for us, sometimes we think of

of missions as being born with William

395

00:21:49,308 --> 00:21:52,311

Carey Hudson Taylor, you know, wonderful,

396

00:21:52,769 --> 00:21:55,230

figures of the faith, by the way.

397

00:21:55,230 --> 00:21:58,191

but, and so we see it advancing first

398

00:21:58,191 --> 00:22:01,445

to China, first India,

then to China and throughout Africa.

399

00:22:01,445 --> 00:22:05,407

And it's a steady march forward

in which the gospel gradually overcomes

400

00:22:05,407 --> 00:22:06,241

all obstacles.

401

00:22:06,241 --> 00:22:09,870

And at the end, you know, every tribe

and nation has been evangelized.

402

00:22:11,413 --> 00:22:11,997

the the

403

00:22:11,997 --> 00:22:15,000

reality is that in some of these places,

such as China,

404

00:22:16,084 --> 00:22:18,587

the gospel was there a long time ago.

405

00:22:18,587 --> 00:22:23,258

And so we do tend to forget the

contributions of the churches of the past.

406

00:22:23,258 --> 00:22:26,219

We also tend to forget that,

407

00:22:27,095 --> 00:22:29,014

faith can be lost.

408

00:22:29,014 --> 00:22:32,017

Churches can decline and,

409

00:22:32,434 --> 00:22:35,437

come to a point where they're no longer

vibrant and no longer effective.

410

00:22:36,063 --> 00:22:39,149

And, this is part of our story, too.

411

00:22:39,733 --> 00:22:43,403

And so when I look at the decline

412

00:22:43,403 --> 00:22:46,406

of the churches in the Middle East

and elsewhere in the world,

413

00:22:47,657 --> 00:22:49,117

you know, it wouldn't

414

00:22:49,117 --> 00:22:52,037

be appropriate for me to,

415

00:22:52,037 --> 00:22:54,790

assign blame or to, to analyze that

416

00:22:54,790 --> 00:22:57,793

except to, to realize maybe that

417

00:22:58,794 --> 00:23:00,504

sometimes we do tend to measure

418

00:23:00,504 --> 00:23:03,507

success in rather earthly terms,

even as a church.

419

00:23:03,548 --> 00:23:05,133

You know, we have Christian.

420

00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:07,219

well, we're

421

00:23:07,219 --> 00:23:10,222

as Americans, we look at our,

you know, Christian

422

00:23:10,597 --> 00:23:13,433

founding principles and so on,

and we feel that,

423

00:23:13,433 --> 00:23:16,436

our nation has been friendly

to Christianity and so on.

424

00:23:16,436 --> 00:23:19,147

The fact is that

425

00:23:19,147 --> 00:23:22,150

maybe identifying too closely with the

426

00:23:22,526 --> 00:23:26,196

with the external markers of success,

we have so many churches, so many people

427

00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:28,990

and so on. Maybe that's a mistake.

428

00:23:28,990 --> 00:23:31,993

Maybe we shouldn't even make,

429

00:23:32,285 --> 00:23:35,247

counting noses and counting

churches our goal.

430

00:23:35,247 --> 00:23:38,250

Maybe we should make it our goal

to be faithful to Christ.

431

00:23:39,918 --> 00:23:43,296

And it matters how many people

come to know him that that matters.

432

00:23:43,296 --> 00:23:46,299

But but faithfulness and,

433

00:23:46,341 --> 00:23:49,344

And remembering

434

00:23:49,428 --> 00:23:54,182

not to get caught up in the,

the allure of the powers of this world.

435

00:23:54,641 --> 00:23:59,729

I do I do really find in this story

a sort of warning for me.

436

00:23:59,729 --> 00:24:02,941

Not not that I know exactly what went down

and how they

437

00:24:03,733 --> 00:24:05,110

why things happened the way they did.

438

00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:07,487

But for me,

I, I take it as a warning not to

439

00:24:08,864 --> 00:24:10,574

embrace an identity with

440

00:24:10,574 --> 00:24:14,578

an earthly kingdom or even an ethnic,

441

00:24:15,245 --> 00:24:17,664

identity to closely

442

00:24:17,664 --> 00:24:21,835

the gospel is is beyond all that

and probably,

443

00:24:22,335 --> 00:24:25,005

probably will come back to bite us if we,

444

00:24:25,005 --> 00:24:28,008

if we wave the American flag,

445

00:24:28,717 --> 00:24:31,303

as Christians to too much

446

00:24:31,303 --> 00:24:34,306

and identify too much with.

447

00:24:34,931 --> 00:24:37,100

With an earthly force.

448

00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:40,854

Because the thing about earthly kingdoms

is they win and then they lose.

449

00:24:40,854 --> 00:24:44,733

And, they’re

certainly not a safe place to trust in.

450

00:24:45,108 --> 00:24:48,361

That's a really great point

because, you can imagine

451

00:24:48,361 --> 00:24:52,240

that some of these churches in the East,

you know, way back in the day,

452

00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,994

say feeling very established

like we've been here for a very long time.

453

00:24:55,994 --> 00:24:57,037

This is incredible.

454

00:24:57,037 --> 00:24:59,789

It's growing. It's

you know getting really well established.

455

00:24:59,789 --> 00:25:02,667

And now we look at this place,

you mentioned Afghanistan earlier,

456

00:25:02,667 --> 00:25:05,045

you know, as a place

where there was a lot of,

457

00:25:05,045 --> 00:25:06,838

I guess a lot

it depends how you define all this.

458

00:25:06,838 --> 00:25:09,007

But there was definitely...There

was a thriving church...

459

00:25:09,007 --> 00:25:10,300

Yeah, there was a church there.

460

00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:10,592

Right.

461

00:25:10,592 --> 00:25:13,428

You know, so

who knows how how many, sure, all of that.

462

00:25:13,428 --> 00:25:14,971

But we cannot say that today.

463

00:25:14,971 --> 00:25:17,557

Yeah, that is definitely not the case.

464

00:25:17,557 --> 00:25:19,809

in the same way, at least,

you know, in that

465

00:25:19,809 --> 00:25:22,896

particular country of China,

some of these other regions, Turkmenistan,

466

00:25:24,356 --> 00:25:26,816

where really this is one of the things

467

00:25:26,816 --> 00:25:29,945

we don't like to talk about maybe as much

instead of the steady march forward.

468

00:25:29,945 --> 00:25:34,324

That was a slow falling like a decline,

469

00:25:34,366 --> 00:25:37,744

you know, in the church,

you know, in these places.

470

00:25:38,078 --> 00:25:39,663

And that's really sad.

471

00:25:39,663 --> 00:25:41,831

You know, I'm not entirely sure

what to do with that.

472

00:25:41,831 --> 00:25:43,375

It's kind of painful.

473

00:25:43,375 --> 00:25:46,378

At the risk of, of,

474

00:25:47,963 --> 00:25:50,840

of trying to do an end run around

that issue.

475

00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,050

You mentioned China. Of course.

476

00:25:52,050 --> 00:25:55,053

There's a thriving church in China today.

477

00:25:55,387 --> 00:25:58,431

that's not directly related

to the efforts of those early,

478

00:25:58,723 --> 00:26:02,352

of the Eastern Church, the Syriac

speaking missionaries that came there.

479

00:26:02,811 --> 00:26:05,230

So there are there are resurgences.

480

00:26:05,230 --> 00:26:06,022

There's hope.

481

00:26:06,022 --> 00:26:09,276

some of which we haven't seen yet,

in some of these regions,

482

00:26:10,235 --> 00:26:13,780

but certainly isn't it isn't it

appropriate with some of these stories

483

00:26:13,780 --> 00:26:16,783

to weep with those who weep,

just to acknowledge that,

484

00:26:18,743 --> 00:26:19,911

I was just reading

485

00:26:19,911 --> 00:26:22,914

one of the Syriac authors this morning,

and he was talking about

486

00:26:22,956 --> 00:26:26,668

how we should live together

as, as though our concerns are one

487

00:26:27,168 --> 00:26:30,171

and saying, you know, if somebody sins,

488

00:26:30,297 --> 00:26:32,591

we should we should work together.

489

00:26:32,591 --> 00:26:34,634

We should consider our own problem.

490

00:26:34,634 --> 00:26:38,847

if if if a brother in the church

gets angry,

491

00:26:39,431 --> 00:26:42,100

that that's my problem

and we should consider it.

492

00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:45,103

And so I even historically can we

look at it that way, like

493

00:26:45,979 --> 00:26:48,815

the church of the East, the,

the Syrian Orthodox Church,

494

00:26:48,815 --> 00:26:50,942

we should weep with them for their losses.

495

00:26:50,942 --> 00:26:54,904

And if if some of it has,

if they haven't perfectly followed Christ

496

00:26:54,904 --> 00:26:56,072

at times, that's

497

00:26:57,157 --> 00:26:58,575

we're not denouncing them.

498

00:26:58,575 --> 00:27:02,120

We're, we're we're considering them

in a sense, our brothers.

499

00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:04,205

And we weep with them.

500

00:27:04,205 --> 00:27:08,293

that's that's that's not a resolution,

but it's something I think about.

501

00:27:08,752 --> 00:27:12,547

that feels like a very relevant response

to, you know, because I'm assuming

502

00:27:12,964 --> 00:27:16,051

a lot of people hearing this, these, these

this is the second one.

503

00:27:16,051 --> 00:27:16,509

We're done with you,

504

00:27:16,509 --> 00:27:17,636

but these two episodes

505

00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:20,639

are going to be hearing things that,

oh, I didn't know that part of the

506

00:27:20,639 --> 00:27:21,598

church's story.

507

00:27:21,598 --> 00:27:22,349

I mean, that's been

508

00:27:22,349 --> 00:27:24,934

I mean, I'm learning all kinds of things,

you know, with these conversations,

509

00:27:24,934 --> 00:27:28,897

but also remembering the tragedy,

the sadness,

510

00:27:28,897 --> 00:27:33,026

the how devastating that was, say,

when the Mongols invaded or the,

511

00:27:33,693 --> 00:27:37,572

you know, this empire rose and fell

and the way that affected the church.

512

00:27:37,572 --> 00:27:40,158

And now, you know, the vibrant church

that used to be in Afghanistan.

513

00:27:40,158 --> 00:27:43,453

And that has definitely been, you know,

514

00:27:44,454 --> 00:27:46,206

squashed and persecuted and

515

00:27:46,206 --> 00:27:49,167

all of these really,

really terrible things.

516

00:27:50,085 --> 00:27:54,089

It is easy to try to come up with pat

answers and be like, oh, well, you know,

517

00:27:54,089 --> 00:27:57,926

it's all part of this great plan

and it'll be better in the end, but okay.

518

00:27:57,926 --> 00:28:01,054

And maybe so, but we don't really know

what all God's doing either.

519

00:28:01,054 --> 00:28:02,013

He hasn't.

520

00:28:02,013 --> 00:28:05,433

You know, we can never claim

to have that perfect knowledge,

521

00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:10,939

but it does feel very biblical to mourn

these things, you know, and,

522

00:28:11,731 --> 00:28:15,151

I wish we could have this episode

come to a wonderful conclusion

523

00:28:15,151 --> 00:28:18,363

where it's all better

now, but it's it's not really, at least

524

00:28:18,363 --> 00:28:21,366

at this point, you know, and maybe in 100

years, that will be different.

525

00:28:21,950 --> 00:28:23,993

But we can leave this episode with

526

00:28:24,953 --> 00:28:27,914

mourning the loss and caring about

527

00:28:27,914 --> 00:28:29,791

those brothers and sisters

that do still live in these

528

00:28:29,791 --> 00:28:31,876

some of these places

where it is very difficult,

529

00:28:31,876 --> 00:28:34,796

you know, to be a Christian to,

to follow Jesus and,

530

00:28:34,796 --> 00:28:37,716

and to be in that environment

and have a thriving church.

531

00:28:37,716 --> 00:28:41,803

There are that is happening,

but it is rare in some of these places.

532

00:28:41,803 --> 00:28:42,887

And that and that is sad.

533

00:28:42,887 --> 00:28:45,432

I think that is a tragedy.

534

00:28:45,432 --> 00:28:46,182

yeah. Wow.

535

00:28:46,182 --> 00:28:48,017

Thanks for,

536

00:28:48,017 --> 00:28:48,935

outlining these things.

537

00:28:48,935 --> 00:28:52,856

I think this will give our audience

a lot to think about.

538

00:28:53,064 --> 00:28:54,107

Is there more you want to add?

539

00:28:54,107 --> 00:28:57,986

More things we can learn from these people

or anything you'd like to say?

540

00:28:57,986 --> 00:28:59,279

In conclusion?

541

00:28:59,279 --> 00:29:03,032

maybe the one thing I'd say in conclusion

is that, Jesus said,

542

00:29:03,032 --> 00:29:07,078

if they persecute you, persecute

you in one city, flee to the another.

543

00:29:07,078 --> 00:29:09,956

And that's sort of a principle

that it does demonstrate

544

00:29:09,956 --> 00:29:13,960

that it's not always going to be possible

to to live, have a thriving,

545

00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,756

faithful church

in any particular geographic location

546

00:29:18,673 --> 00:29:22,093

and some of the churches of the East,

point to that verse and say,

547

00:29:22,385 --> 00:29:23,762

that's our story.

548

00:29:23,762 --> 00:29:27,766

and so today you'll find it's thriving.

549

00:29:29,142 --> 00:29:30,351

expatriate or

550

00:29:30,351 --> 00:29:33,772

no longer expatriate,

but churches, a diaspora of the church

551

00:29:33,772 --> 00:29:36,941

of the East and the Syrian Orthodox Church

in other places.

552

00:29:36,941 --> 00:29:39,944

One of the the strongest places,

by the way, is India.

553

00:29:40,236 --> 00:29:43,615

That would be the more

the Syrian Orthodox tradition.

554

00:29:43,615 --> 00:29:44,491

So a lot of them

555

00:29:44,491 --> 00:29:47,619

either fled or or in different ways,

kind of made their way there

556

00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:49,204

in time in the past.

557

00:29:49,204 --> 00:29:52,207

And this that's kind of, actually India

because of their

558

00:29:52,499 --> 00:29:55,043

their very early beginnings,

they didn't experience

559

00:29:55,043 --> 00:29:58,129

some of the things we were talking about

with, Islamic invasion.

560

00:29:58,129 --> 00:30:01,049

They experienced

lots of their own persecutions and so on,

561

00:30:01,049 --> 00:30:03,676

but they've just grown in those locations.

562

00:30:03,676 --> 00:30:04,219

Yeah.

563

00:30:04,219 --> 00:30:09,140

so in the United States, in Russia

and in other places around the world,

564

00:30:09,140 --> 00:30:13,102

you find communities of Christians maybe

calling themselves Assyrian or something,

565

00:30:13,478 --> 00:30:16,397

but continuing the traditions

that they've received

566

00:30:16,397 --> 00:30:18,983

and singing the songs and so on.

567

00:30:18,983 --> 00:30:23,905

And so they're they're dealing

with a whole mix of,

568

00:30:24,072 --> 00:30:27,075

influences, some positive, possibly,

569

00:30:27,075 --> 00:30:29,994

and some not so positive

as they move into,

570

00:30:29,994 --> 00:30:33,790

you know, the United States, let's say,

where there's a very interesting

571

00:30:33,790 --> 00:30:37,836

religious kaleidoscope, and influences

that their young people are getting.

572

00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:41,172

And again, some of those

might be beneficial and some might not.

573

00:30:41,756 --> 00:30:45,093

But, it's good to see these communities

in the diaspora,

574

00:30:45,176 --> 00:30:50,181

trying to retain and even grow

some things that they've received.

575

00:30:51,391 --> 00:30:52,684

Yeah, I like that.

576

00:30:52,684 --> 00:30:55,311

That's a I feel like that's a good note

to end on.

577

00:30:55,311 --> 00:30:57,814

We've covered a lot of ground

in these last two episodes,

578

00:30:57,814 --> 00:31:01,734

and I thank you for taking the time

to come on this podcast and share

579

00:31:01,734 --> 00:31:03,528

what you've learned. Thank you.

580

00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,616

Thanks for listening to this episode with

Lucas about the early church in the East.

581

00:31:08,658 --> 00:31:11,870

We actually did another episode with him

that went into a lot more of the history

582

00:31:11,870 --> 00:31:12,412

and provides

583

00:31:12,412 --> 00:31:15,915

a lot more context for this episode,

so I encourage you listen to that.

584

00:31:15,915 --> 00:31:17,166

It's linked down below,

585

00:31:17,166 --> 00:31:20,169

as well as other resources

that he mentioned in this episode.

586

00:31:20,545 --> 00:31:21,588

Thanks so much for listening.

587

00:31:21,588 --> 00:31:24,716

As always, you can find all our content

on our website

588

00:31:24,716 --> 00:31:29,304

at anabaptistperspectives.org,

and we'll catch you in the next episode.

589

00:35:27,125 --> 00:35:28,709

What is the mark of the beast?

590

00:35:28,709 --> 00:35:30,878

How shall we read the book of Revelation?

591

00:35:30,878 --> 00:35:33,673

And how is first century

apocalyptic literature

592

00:35:33,673 --> 00:35:36,676

relevant for us today?

593

00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:45,685

Who were the early Christians

of the Middle East.

594

00:35:45,685 --> 00:35:49,897

What did they believe and what are some

lessons that they can give for us today.

595

00:37:47,348 --> 00:37:49,475

In the

early church, there were many Christians

596

00:37:49,475 --> 00:37:52,603

all across the Middle East,

but today there are very few.

597

00:37:52,812 --> 00:37:54,021

What happened to them?

598

00:37:54,021 --> 00:37:56,232

How does this relate with worldly powers?

599

00:37:56,232 --> 00:37:57,942

And what can that teach us today?

600

00:49:02,356 --> 00:49:03,523

As a ship of state power,

601

00:49:03,523 --> 00:49:06,526

New York Times and some of that,

602

00:49:11,198 --> 00:49:11,657

Oh, yeah.

603

00:49:11,657 --> 00:49:13,700

And then this whole question of like,

why should we study this?

604

00:49:13,700 --> 00:49:16,912

And how, yeah, this idea that

605

00:49:17,913 --> 00:49:20,082

this could be much more to Christianity,

but like,

606

00:49:20,082 --> 00:49:23,043

this is a case

where it's actually accountability,

607

00:49:23,669 --> 00:49:25,837

or at least at least as much less.

608

00:49:25,837 --> 00:49:27,673

You think that's very

609

00:49:27,673 --> 00:49:30,676

relevant for us to keep that in mind.

610

00:49:31,593 --> 00:49:34,262

like you mentioned the Mongols

611

00:49:34,262 --> 00:49:36,431

for this

612

00:49:36,431 --> 00:49:37,933

and this are very clear.

613

00:49:37,933 --> 00:49:40,894

I should probably go down

614

00:49:42,062 --> 00:49:43,772

that that's not all doubt.

615

00:49:43,772 --> 00:49:44,606

Right.

616

00:49:44,606 --> 00:49:47,609

Yeah, I think so.

617

00:49:47,609 --> 00:49:49,027

Okay. Good.

618

00:49:49,027 --> 00:49:52,030

And we'll, we'll see where all it goes

with and particularly

619

00:49:52,197 --> 00:49:54,241

what happened to them

and the relationship to state power.

620

00:49:54,241 --> 00:49:56,076

Just like those are things you know.

621

00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,913

pieces I don't have specific questions.

622

00:49:59,913 --> 00:50:03,291

Watch from here. Yeah