Foreign welcome to the Promoted Podcast.

I'm your host, Felicity Fury, CEO and co founder of We Aspire.

And I'm joined by the incredible Renee Tomlin, commercial pilot, engineer and speaker.

Renee, awesome to have you back on the show.

Where are you calling in from today?

So good to be here with everyone.

I'm calling in from Larrak here this morning.

It's incredible as always to be up here.

I am celebrating my birthday today, actually, and spent last night at Mindle beach watching the sunset at the Mindel beach markets.

What a dream.

It's so nice to be up here.

What about you, Felicity?

Where are you calling him?

I'm on Gummy Gummy country today and I'm so grateful that we have the beautiful lands up here on the Sunshine coast that we can meet on and enjoy.

And actually, yeah, we spent the day bike riding yesterday along the beach and then sitting by the water, which was so beautiful.

So very grateful to be up here.

And today we're going to be talking about a topic that is something that Renee and I are both still grappling with as leaders, trying to figure out.

It's a really big topic.

I think it's something that if you are a conscious leader in the workplace today, you'd certainly be aware of it and something that you're grappling with as well.

We hear a lot about things like psychological safety, divers diversity and inclusion and equity and then the reality of how do we make all of these things work in the workplace.

I know personally, for me, I've been on a bit of a journey over the last few months around, you know, regenerative leadership, around trauma, informed leadership.

And I'm thinking about how do I include these things into my practices as a leader.

Renee, I know you've been talking a lot for many years around the inclusive inclusivity side, not just gender, but also cultural diversity, particularly first nations culture.

And so I'm really keen to dive in to this topic with you today.

Where should we start?

I think it's an absolutely monster topic.

You could do like a whole podcast series on this.

Well, first of all, I just want to say thank you for creating the space to have this conversation too, because it's such a tricky one to navigate.

And I feel like time and time again leaders, they don't ignore cultural diversity and inclusion and diversity strategies, but they certainly find it hard to incorporate into the systems and the culture that we have in the workplace in Australia.

And, and we're really referring to the Australian context today when we speak as well, unless we call out otherwise.

But this conversation actually came up in light of National Reconciliation Week.

So National Reconciliation Week is a date, a week of significance for First Nations Australians.

And it's really about understanding, reconciliation, taking the time to reflect on our history as a country and what we're doing today to really embrace first nations culture, not only in the workplace, but within our communities.

How do we think about what our communities need today?

How can we foster aspects of culture like self determination, making decisions for your people, with your people?

Certainly this year's theme is Bridging now to Next.

And that's really a call out to all Australians to reflect on the past and work together for a united Australia into the future.

That's maybe where we start.

Felicity is in the workplace it can be really hard to engage in topics that either don't, you don't either have a cultural identity that aligns or for instance, first nations culture has always been a really tricky discussion point in big organizations, big corporate organizations, where there's generally always low representation of first nations people within first nations business.

It's not really an issue at all.

Everybody walks together hand in hand to talk about topics that are really important to them, them.

It's really open dialogue and certainly where there are dates to celebrate, it's really encouraged.

And everybody really goes out into community and builds relationships and talks about the things that they really need.

So this is just a starting point for us to open up that dialogue.

Because the way I see it, as a First nations woman who has walked in both worlds, that being first nations community culture, but also in non indigenous spaces where, you know, corporate systems and leadership are driven in very different ways, they're measured in very different ways.

And to merge the two worlds has been something that I've had experience in.

It's really tricky to do.

And.

The conversation I really wanted to have today is just reflecting on how interconnected the world really is and the importance for the next generation of leaders to make sure that we're not only valuing commercial value, but we're thinking about people and human centered design in everything that we do today.

And Felicia, I'd love to hear your reflections on this.

I think that we see in major corporates a lack of alignment between what we know is important to humans and their ability to function at a high capacity in their work and KPIs that drive the company to ensure there's shareholder value and commercial value that is prioritized.

I might pause there, but what are your reflections so far, Felicity?

I think it's a really interesting dynamic and it's, I think often it can be that short term thinking versus long term thinking.

And it's, it is tricky because there are commercial realities.

You know, even in our own personal life, there's a commercial reality of you need money to pay for your life, to pay for housing, to pay for food, all the things that happen in your life.

So there's a commercial reality personally.

And then with an organization, you know, that's, that applies the same.

And I think on a personal level, if I'm not functioning well, if I don't have, you know, if I don't have sound well being, if I'm not rested, then I'm not going to perform well day to day.

And I think the same applies broadly across a company as well.

If your people, you know, aren't doing well, if they're, if there's, you know, difficulties, etc.

Then the company isn't going to perform well.

And I think from my experience just even in engineering, I remember back to my consulting days, the, I guess reward systems and reward structures that we had in the organization were like, oh, did you produce a report?

Did you win client work?

And that was, they were the things that were measured.

And I remember myself and another colleague in my team were really good at building relationships and so we often really struggled and found it difficult because what was value that it's very intangible and it's often to measure.

But when you look at the, you know, long term success of a company, you do need to build those relationships with clients.

If, you know, you do a project that maybe you don't win the work back or you don't build that relationship, then it's not going to work for you long term.

So I think there's, there's a lot of systems that we've wound up with because of the Industrial revolution, because of certain things in our short term history.

But then if we look at a broader picture, you know, even 500 years ago, how the world worked and then even to indigenous culture tens of thousands of years ago, how did the world work?

I think that we can learn a lot and I think we've also forgotten as well those things that are really important.

And I think even just, you know, culture aside, just from a family perspective, I feel like a lot in today's society we ignore families and children.

It's often about, you know, what are the long daycare hours, Can I get my kids in daycare so I can, you know, work?

And even as a female, I felt like I have like, it's almost like my duty to work and if I'm.

I feel like I should do that rather than spend time with my children.

That's something I've really grappled with and why it's been so great to take a break.

So I think it's really complex and it isn't, you know, as you said earlier before we jumped on the recording, Renee, it is a very individual approach and it can be super challenging to go, yeah, I think the engineering means, like, how do I design a system for the individual?

And even on engineering projects we usually, like often we've gone, what are 90 of people going to do?

We can just design for that because of time, money, resources, energy.

We're just going to design for 90 of people.

And the others, I'm sorry, we just, it's just like too hard to just like at this point in time to design for.

So I often think we do get a broad brush approach.

Like millennials are like this non indigenous people, like this indigenous people are categorized because we like to put things into boxes as humans, which really does a disservice.

So it is very true.

And yeah, I think it comes down to asking the right questions and it's like a moment by moment thoughtfulness of not having assumptions.

But it's genuinely very difficult.

I think.

Yeah, I agree.

And I don't think this conversation is that, you know, we need to forget about commercial value.

I think that we all recognize that commercial value is inherent in a capitalist system and it's something we always need to prioritize because if the business isn't making money, no one's making money.

So it's certainly not a conversation around diminishing the importance of commercial value, but it's certainly a conversation around the importance of importance of people and how do we reward our managers, our leaders across these businesses to really care about the people that they work with, to really put the time aside to listen, to understand their unique perspectives and circumstances so that, you know, parents can make school, pick up and drop off work flexibly so that first nations people can attend dates of significance or go to counseling for support or, you know, get to that second job because they're trying to support family or they want to be future leaders themselves.

How do we think about it from a strengths based position as well?

Like, we want to have diversity and inclusion amplified throughout businesses, but we need pipeline and talent and opportunities for diverse people to step into those roles as well.

We need to also think about hope and the fact that there is opportunity for change and that anybody, irrespective of their diversity, should be able to strive for opportunity equitably amongst other people around them, which we know in this world just does not exist.

So that leads me to the systems that are in place to either unlock that opportunity and create more equity and give people those opportunities.

So for me, if I think about my own personal circumstances, I am a quota hire, as people like to stereotype them.

So when I first stepped into the workplace, I was given my first internship ever at Qantas Airlines, Australia's national carrier.

And I was given that opportunity through an internship program called Career Trackers, where they set up indigenous tertiary qualified interns.

And Qantas at the time partnered with them, which meant I was the first intern ever to have an internship at Qantas through this program.

And I reflect on that because that changed my life.

That changed generational wealth for my family.

It's given me the opportunity now to think about saving for the future.

It's given me the opportunity to think about owning my own home for the first time.

It's given me the opportunity to think about being able to actually finance a family if that's something that ever happens and that was really hard or unachievable just in one generation before me.

So there is a place for diversity hires.

And I know that there is huge contention around that, right?

You can't just put someone in a position because they, if they haven't earned it, then they shouldn't be getting that opportunity.

But we need to think about, you know, the amount of privilege that comes with the opportunity to be the top of the top in most job opportunities, right?

So how do you, how do you change the system?

And no one has a good recommendation around this.

And I think that this is where I'd love to take the conversation is, you know, you've taken some time out recently.

Felicity, I come with a huge amount of experience and knowledge from multiple perspectives around these topics.

What are the systems that are really going to change the game for our next generation?

We've seen these incredible attempts to bring in inclusion and diversity strategies, to start giving budgets to try and amplify and diversify the people that are making decisions at the table.

But we still see huge amounts of backlash.

We still see a lack of traction in a lot of portfolios.

For instance, first nations people come into major corporates and they don't always stay.

We see a huge amount of attrition.

I know, for example, caring responsibilities.

Probably over half the population and some of my previous employers had caring responsibilities.

So if there wasn't that flexibility there, you couldn't stay with these employers.

And then LGBTQ ti, you know, looking at opportunities to come together to form coalitions to make sure that people are more educated and have an understanding around the challenges, the traumas that come with identifying publicly in these sorts of spaces.

There's so much challenge around getting diversity at the leadership table, but we also know that commercially we need to do this.

The Diversity Council of Australia, back in 2021-22, put out a survey to 3,000 Australians and 75% of those employees came back to the survey saying that taking action to create a diverse and inclusive workplace is something they support.

And there are incredible statistics that sit around the commercial value that comes with that.

There's improved effectiveness, innovation, commercial performance that comes with diversity and inclusion.

So why are we so hesitant to give up that spot to somebody that we know has diverse lived experience that could support a whole other generation of people in the workplace?

There's always that short term gain or short term loss, long term gain that continues to kind of be debated around how do we change the system, how do we include more people?

So, Felicity, you work with hundreds upon thousands of leaders across Australia.

What have you learned and where do you think we go to next?

It's a big question.

Yeah, there's so much in that.

I think even just the caring responsibility piece, you know, it's not just people who have children.

It's also, I'm seeing so many people in my life having care and responsibilities for their parents.

We've got an aging population, so that's certainly not new.

So there's.

There is a.

It's a lot.

And I think it's really, it is really challenging system usually covers a lot of people in a really broad range of people.

I think it comes back to designing for the individual.

And I love this concept of we have different seasons in life.

It's a term that I actually heard from Justine Flynn, the co founder of thank you, the thank you hand soaps and formerly thank you and.

And she talks about different seasons in life.

And that's something that's really fit with me because at the moment I feel like I'm in the season of parenting, parenting young children.

And so there's different things that I need in my life right now, like flexibility.

I love being able to do Monday morning ballet class with my daughter, which I did this morning, and have that flexibility.

And so I've been very fortunate to be in my own business, to design my life in that way.

Previous roles, actually when I was shout out to Swinburne University.

I know universities do this really well and they're super flexible and they have amazing parental leave where I got paid basically for the entire year of both of my parental leaves, even though I was in a contract.

Like those things make a huge difference.

So I feel like ultimately, if you had to kind of boil it down, it becomes like being a good human, talking to people and understanding each individual's experience.

Because my experience, a parent is going to be different from someone else's experience as a parent.

Some people love being parents, some people find it super challenging.

There's a whole range kind of in between.

So I think we can never assume someone's experience.

Like someone might look at me and go, oh, you're, you know, I grew up in, in Brisbane in a middle class family making assumptions like that.

And actually I found that growing up I felt like I had really critical parents.

And often I speak with people who come from say an Asian culture where they had a similar experience.

And so there's actually things that are not that different, I think, as well as like fundamental human experiences.

But we also can't assume how an experience has affected somebody.

And even diving into something like birth trauma.

There's a third of women in Australia have birth trauma, which is crazy stats.

And I feel like a huge portion of the population.

If you think about how many women in Australia have babies.

So like, you know, yeah, you just imagine like you get a room of like three women that have babies.

Like the chances are one of those has birth trauma.

How does that affect their kind of day to day life?

And also I don't think you need to be going and absolutely do not.

This is not a call to go ask people like, hey, what's your trauma?

Spending that at all.

But I think having an understanding that.

And I heard someone say this, which I love, like everyone's got their own invisible backpack, whether that it could be a childhood trauma.

And the more that I've been speaking to people about that, the more it's opening up about people's relationships, their parents and what their upbringing is like.

So I think it really comes down to how do you really give people the benefit of the doubt, bring love and care into a relationship for each single person and it can be something simple like asking the question, help me understand, like help me understand why you do it that way, help me understand this or oh, I noticed this happened.

Can you like, like can you like tell me more about that?

And it's really fascinating when you start to ask questions like that, you get to see people reveal themselves in their answers.

And it might be a completely different way someone did something than you expected them to answer.

So I know there's like, the big system stuff around, like, you know, you can come from a values perspective, but I feel like it is such a Day Today thing.

And I've spoken to some incredible leaders.

I just recalling a lady at John Holland where she said there was no parental leave when she was at John Holland and she had her first baby.

So she went to her boss about it, and together they came up with this plan where they had this kind of like, hodgepodge of like, oh, we can get leave from here, and we can structure this in this way.

So this was like, decades ago.

She was able to actually take a really good amount of parental leave because they'd kind of like, hacked the system.

So I think even if there are systems in place, there are workarounds, but it really starts with those conversations and being really open to it because.

Yeah, and just like, last point on that is I feel like I'm such a, like, advocate, like, change the system, like, do these things differently.

And like, it's a hard fight.

It is, like, so hard advocating for change I've done, I'm still doing it.

And it can be a really, really tough fight.

And so I think sometimes you need to make choices on those battles.

And I think it might seem like, counterintuitive, like, but if you just think about if every single person had a conversation with one other person and had that understanding and brought that genuine care into the conversation, then that would be, like, miraculous, I think.

Yeah, that's your question.

I feel like there was many tangents there.

No, I think, yeah, it's an important step is, you know, leaders role modeling behaviors that we want to see.

So vulnerability, curiosity, and being intentional to really create the space to have conversations to get to know people.

So I don't think there's a right answer.

But certainly I think that leaders at all levels, but most importantly at a board level, shareholder level, need to be demonstrating those behaviors too.

And that's where you and I did a conversation recently, a podcast on ethical leadership and reputation.

And I think that brings in a whole other suede of challenges around navigating commercial pressure.

But certainly the conversations that I've had with first nations women leading first nations businesses or departments within the business, a lot of the time they say it's really simple.

It's about the fact that somebody can walk in and not feel Judged, it's the fact that people really care.

And what that means is they show up for them, they ask them how they're going, they create space to build relationships and they may even change the system to reflect their personal needs.

So whilst, you know, we talk about quotas, KPIs, performance metrics, the system that kind of enables and unlocks diversity inclusion at diverse leadership tables, sometimes it's really up to the just the individual themselves.

And I think sometimes what I see is this expectation that you come in and you do your job only as an employee without there being really any weight on you, fostering a sense of community in the workplace that you go to.

And so how do we incentivise people to take that time to think about not just themselves and their own circumstances, but those around them.

And I think that at times we can feel like it's such an individual role to come to work and to contribute and to make sure you hit your hours and make sure you hit your deliverables.

And I think that that's where people forget to make space for these other things.

So I would really encourage corporates to have a think about what does it look like to bring time, space and active listening and care into the workplace.

Is it monthly catch ups and yarning circles?

Is it, you know, managers carving out an hour to check in someone's wellbeing every week as well as an hour to check in on someone's work?

How do we start balancing commercial value with people centered metrics and well being?

Maybe I'll leave it there City.

It's so good.

You just reminded me when I did actually start work at Swinburne and it was my first day and my manager took me in for a walk.

We had a walking meeting.

First of all, I'd never had a walking meeting before, so I was like, who's this?

And then he said, how are you feeling?

And I was like, what?

And he's like, how are you feeling?

And I was like, good.

He's like, no, no, how are you like really feeling?

And literally shout out to things.

I was like, no one has ever asked me that.

Like, and it was such a simple question.

And I think like, I really like what you said around no judgment, you know, no pressure from the, the person that you're speaking with or from anyone like that.

You have to end like that.

You do have to open up in a workplace context.

Like some things are really private and you know, it's okay to say you're not okay and just like leave it or I just got some like personal stuff I'm dealing with.

And you know, I like your point around that it's important for shareholders, for leaders, for the board to do this.

But also, you know, hey, like you can talk to your mate, you don't have to be in a leadership position or I think often I've relied on leaders gone like, oh well, the leader should ask me these questions.

And I've noticed actually just recently that I'm not very good at communicating my needs.

And for me cating needs needs is a bit of like a safety thing.

Like I find it sometimes unsafe to communicate my needs because of past experiences that I've had.

So I think also too cool thing for individuals to reflect on.

Like what do you actually need and are you actually communicating that?

Because I see a lot of people complaining like, oh, my workplace isn't responding and you have to ask the question, are you actually, have you actually communicated what's important to you?

Because I know for myself I certainly didn't do that in the past and because of that I was put in some situations that didn't work for me.

But of course, how would my managers know?

Because I never actually communicated what I needed in those situations.

Absolutely.

And I think as well from my end there is an expectation in the way that I lead that I have to remain as open minded and curious as, as the people I expect to be led from.

So for instance, you know, having the confidence to go and ask for what I need and not doing that out of a fear based position but out of a, hey, you asked me this question or I really want to give you this insight because it's affecting me in X, Y, Z way.

So again, not only asking that question as a leader from the people I lead or work with and checking in and saying how are you?

But also taking the initiative as an individual to actually answer honestly, I'm not doing that well, I have so much on my plate and here's why.

If I could ask for a day off or take, you know, a flexible morning here and there, that would really help me be able to achieve X, Y, Z outside of work.

So yeah, certainly a challenging one to navigate, but it shouldn't just be placed on leadership.

I think that when I speak about leaders too, I think about leading yourself.

I don't think about a manager or someone that you report to.

I think about you as an individual should be respected and encouraged to kind of step into your own sense of leadership and lead from below, middle and above, whatever your perception of leadership is.

And Just to call it.

Yeah, sorry, you go for it.

I was gonna say.

And you just made me think.

You know, we often talk about diversity and the.

There's different people with different equity in the workplace.

And certainly I think we do need to be giving a voice to those people who are not represented.

But also I feel like there's a bit of a conversation and it's probably a podcast topic for another day, but I do feel like I speak to a lot of white men who feel like they can't put their voice forward.

Not speaking for white men, but speaking, it can be tricky to be an ally.

It kind of feels like damned if they do, they don't.

And so I think at the end of the day, like we're all human beings.

And I do feel like there's.

It's like these people who actually are in these positions of power, a lot of white men feel like they can't talk about certain topics.

And I feel like that is also another challenge in this space because I know a lot.

Not because they want to, but they're deliberately sitting back, which I think is really tricky for actually creating change because they're the ones in power.

So anyway, that's like a whole other dynamic that comes into it as well.

And I think on that point though, like leaders, as we said before, must role model vulnerability, curiosity, and emotional honesty, right?

So if I had, you know, a middle aged man in a leadership role come up to me and be curious and honest about this is how I'm feeling, I would love to engage on this more, but I don't feel comfortable, you know, would you give me permission to enter this conversation or, you know, what do you think is the best way that I can educate myself so that I can engage mindfully in this conversation?

And that's the thing, right?

We live in a world where there is so much information available.

In my opinion, if you have any diverse representation in your team, you need to be speaking to that person about what that means to them and what that means to the way that they work.

So it means leaning into uncomfortable conversations.

And in maybe the older generations, feelings and thoughts and nice to haves weren't really spoken about.

You came to work, you did your job and you kind of sucked it up.

And I feel like that's even more so in men, is this inability to really share emotionally how they're feeling about things.

So I guess this is a call out to the older generation.

If you're listening, please lean into us.

Please, you know, share with us how you feel about these moments.

And please know as well, you're always invited to that table.

And if you're not, then that other person isn't demonstrating those same qualities of vulnerability, courage and curiosity as well.

So I think that this is a conversation that needs to go both ways.

It needs to go across generations and everybody needs to be a part of it.

So how do we demonstrate them individually and as leaders?

It means asking those harder, awkward questions.

It means getting comfortable with the uncomfortable.

And I don't think that we can cross these borders and have this appreciation for other cultures until we genuinely sit down and have those conversations.

So I'm also great.

I feel like I'm that person who's like, can I ask a dumb question about, you know, first nations with you?

And it's been so helpful because it's made me feel a lot more comfortable and engaging.

That.

And you know, you're one of my dear friends, so I don't want to offend you of like, oh my gosh, am I going to upset Renee?

Or like, I don't know, something.

And you've always been so generous as well.

So I think, you know, it really does go a long way where I can and actually have that person to say, like, hey, I noticed this, or like, what does this mean?

Or even speaking to other, you know, incredible indigenous people in our community about like, even like grandma around acknowledgement of country.

And I got to co facilitate with him at the Sydney Opera House and I learned so much from him.

And just like, even in the amazing, like grant, like, and then I was like, he said, oh, you can do the acknowledgment of country tomorrow.

And I was like, oh my gosh, I don't want to screw it up in front of him because he wrote the policy for Engineers Australia on it and he was so generous as well.

So I think people do really appreciate just asking, like, hey, what's it like in your world opening up that conversation?

And I think if you are genuine about it and you know, it could even be that framing of like, I don't even know if I'm going to ask this question appropriately, then I think that can go such huge way as.

Well, I couldn't agree more.

And you know, if I think about exactly that, that kind of experience that you've had, you know, authenticity can be messy and it can be challenging to work through those hard conversations or to take the responsibility and not want to mess it up, but that shows that you care.

But I think as well, acknowledgement that authenticity is messy.

But it's necessary as well.

So, you know, giving the acknowledgment of country, again, a lot of people don't even understand why they have to give it, and they feel like it's.

It's almost a mandated thing.

But for me, when I think about it, we're on the lands of the oldest living culture in the world, right?

That's not a weight to carry.

It's a gift to us.

So how do we bring that to light?

How do we show that there is history in this country?

And yes, it's messy, but it is our history.

So how.

How do we own it?

How do we step into it?

How do we learn from it?

Yeah.

100.

So good.

This is a huge topic, as I said right at the start, can go in many different directions.

We are still learning ourselves as leaders, and I think that is, for me, a really helpful mindset of I don't have all the answers.

It's really been an open conversation today.

We'd love to hear your feedback on this topic or if there's a particular element you'd love us to deep dive into more.

Renee, I'm really keen to keep exploring this with you, particularly around including in first nations culture into even our everyday lives.

You know, I think there's so much that we can learn, particularly from a leadership perspective.

I'm really scratching the surface here, like, even around the trauma element of things in, you know, indigenous cultures around the world, not just here in Australia.

They didn't have things like trauma back in the day because of the practices that they had and the ceremony and the support, and we're missing so much of that.

So I think there's a huge amount that we can learn and I love that you integrate that into our podcast.

So thank you, Renee.

Thank you for being such an incredible advocate for first nations culture and.

And for diversity and engineering and inclusion.

It's certainly not easy advocating, so shout out to.

You're doing so awesome.

Thank you.

And can I just say, too, it's not easy being an indigenous person in a lot of respects too.

So whilst, you know, it's hard to engage in conversation at times, it's also hard to be on the recipient on the other kind of side of that table where you're willing to kind of share that story and engage with people, but they're scared too.

So, yeah, I'm always here for a conversation.

Would love to share what I know and my own experience with those that are willing to lean in.

And on that note, happy National Reconciliation Week.

That's what this week is all about.

It's sharing stories, it's learning and educating so we can all learn from each other and grow together for a more united Australia.

And that's certainly an Australia that I hope is well and truly in our future.

Your Felicity, thank you for joining us today.

Thank you so much.

You've been listening to the Promoter podcast, the podcast which helps you get promoted and be great when you get there.

Thanks so much, Renee.

We'll see you on the next one.

See you on the next one.