1 00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:06,580 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today we learn how to use crowdfunding to collect key customer feedback from a leader who's built 15 2 00:00:06,580 --> 00:00:14,400 Kevin Mako: companies over 15 years. This is the Product Startup Podcast, a show to learn from top leaders in hardware product development, 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:21,480 Kevin Mako: prototyping, manufacturing, product selling, and everything in between. Hosted by Kevin Mako, the leading expert on product 4 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:27,510 Kevin Mako: development for hardware startups. Welcome back, everyone. I'm very excited to introduce Yuri Dvoinos to the show. 5 00:00:27,510 --> 00:00:32,090 Kevin Mako: Yuri is the founder of 15 companies that have done tens of millions of dollars in revenue. 6 00:00:32,550 --> 00:00:40,310 Kevin Mako: One of them is the Jammy portable guitar, which did $250,000 in funding on its first crowdfunding campaign, then $500,000 on the second. 7 00:00:40,770 --> 00:00:53,650 Kevin Mako: Today, Yuri will share valuable knowledge for inventors, startups, and small manufacturers on the value of customer feedback on a crowdfunding campaign, how to use that feedback to do a great second version of your product and other crowdfunding tips for success for your hardware product. 8 00:00:53,650 --> 00:00:54,950 Kevin Mako: Now on to the episode. 9 00:00:54,950 --> 00:01:00,570 Kevin Mako: This show is produced by Mako Design, the original firm providing end-to-end consumer product 10 00:01:00,570 --> 00:01:06,190 Kevin Mako: development services tailored specifically to hardware startups, small manufacturers, and inventors. 11 00:01:06,330 --> 00:01:12,270 Kevin Mako: Take your product from idea to store shelves at MakoDesign.com. Now on to the episode. 12 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:14,980 Kevin Mako: Hey, Yuri, welcome to the show. 13 00:01:14,980 --> 00:01:16,440 Yuri Dvoinos: Hi, thank you for having me. 14 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:22,420 Kevin Mako: We're really excited today to have you on to talk about your experience in scaling through crowdfunding. 15 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,180 Kevin Mako: You did multiple crowdfunding campaigns. 16 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,900 Kevin Mako: with the Jammy product, which is really cool. But you've also been a part of venture funding, 17 00:01:29,260 --> 00:01:33,760 Kevin Mako: millions of dollars in funding, tens of millions of dollars in revenue across your organizations 18 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,360 Kevin Mako: in some years and whatnot. So what better person that knows all of these different startups, 19 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,540 Kevin Mako: both from a venture perspective, but also from a founder perspective, a manager perspective, 20 00:01:42,860 --> 00:01:48,520 Kevin Mako: you've essentially done it all. And really drilling down onto why you took the crowdfunding 21 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:53,820 Kevin Mako: approach with Jammy and then why you chose to scale up doing then multiple crowdfundings with 22 00:01:53,820 --> 00:01:57,620 Kevin Mako: newer, better variants of the product, as you learned from versions before. 23 00:01:58,100 --> 00:02:02,240 Kevin Mako: So before we get into that whole story, just give us a bit of a background on how you became 24 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:03,640 Kevin Mako: the big success story that you are today. 25 00:02:04,060 --> 00:02:10,100 Yuri Dvoinos: Yeah, absolutely. So I launched my first startup in 2009 right after I graduated from 26 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:17,160 Yuri Dvoinos: National Technical University. And this was a cybersecurity consumer offering, which is now 27 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:23,240 Yuri Dvoinos: called Clario. And ironically, it was one of the most successful things I've done. It is the 28 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:29,020 Yuri Dvoinos: company that hit eight figures in annual revenue. And at some point of time, we got 29 00:02:29,020 --> 00:02:35,020 Yuri Dvoinos: 50 million downloads of our security software. And we wanted to explore other businesses and other 30 00:02:35,020 --> 00:02:43,600 Yuri Dvoinos: verticals. So we had almost like a corporate venture arm where we would fund talented teams or high 31 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,820 Yuri Dvoinos: potential individuals and back some of the ideas. Some of those were our ideas. And this is how 32 00:02:48,820 --> 00:02:52,500 Yuri Dvoinos: Jammy Guitar was born. So this was one of those projects. 33 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:57,480 Yuri Dvoinos: Up until now, I've launched 15 different products. This is probably the one of the most 34 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:03,780 Yuri Dvoinos: emotional products I've ever done because hardware is just a different beast. You can touch it. 35 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,320 Yuri Dvoinos: You can carry it with you. It's just so different from software. 36 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:12,460 Kevin Mako: Looking forward to talking about jammy. Just give us a bit of a high level. What is jammy? 37 00:03:12,620 --> 00:03:15,980 Kevin Mako: And then let's talk about what you did from the crowdfunding angle. 38 00:03:17,190 --> 00:03:22,490 Yuri Dvoinos: Yeah. So when we were, when we started working on jamming, what we wanted to do was, 39 00:03:22,490 --> 00:03:30,010 Yuri Dvoinos: was the most portable electronic guitar. So imagine you want to take your guitar with you on a 40 00:03:30,010 --> 00:03:35,110 Yuri Dvoinos: hiking trip or you just want to jam in a meeting room and you really want to, you know, just 41 00:03:35,110 --> 00:03:41,870 Yuri Dvoinos: put your headphones on and then jam a little bit or maybe record some of the tunes that you have on your 42 00:03:41,870 --> 00:03:47,790 Yuri Dvoinos: mind. Products that were available on the market at that time were really not doing a good job, 43 00:03:47,870 --> 00:03:52,330 Yuri Dvoinos: in my opinion. And we wanted to fill that gap. This is one of those ideas. 44 00:03:52,490 --> 00:03:56,630 Yuri Dvoinos: where you pitch it and you're like, yeah, you can disassemble the guitar, you can put it in 45 00:03:56,630 --> 00:04:01,450 Yuri Dvoinos: your backpack. And everyone was like, really? Like, I want that. Like, that's a really appealing idea. 46 00:04:01,610 --> 00:04:06,610 Yuri Dvoinos: So we almost immediately got this feedback. People were saying, like, do the crowdfunding. I'm going 47 00:04:06,610 --> 00:04:15,450 Yuri Dvoinos: to back you guys. Which we did. And one of the things that, well, of course, we strategized and we wanted 48 00:04:15,450 --> 00:04:19,950 Yuri Dvoinos: to understand, like, what exactly do we want to build, what's going to be the industrial design, the 49 00:04:19,950 --> 00:04:22,530 Yuri Dvoinos: economic, all of those things. We wanted to do a prototype. 50 00:04:22,550 --> 00:04:28,390 Yuri Dvoinos: But at some point of time, when we were know what we were built in exactly, and we had a really 51 00:04:28,390 --> 00:04:32,730 Yuri Dvoinos: good idea, okay, so that's exactly, it's going to work. We know we're going to make it work. 52 00:04:33,270 --> 00:04:39,850 Yuri Dvoinos: Then it's almost like you want to achieve the market fit. And the other part of this, it's the reason 53 00:04:39,850 --> 00:04:45,070 Yuri Dvoinos: it's called product market fit. I think it's not just about your product. It's also about what market 54 00:04:45,070 --> 00:04:51,190 Yuri Dvoinos: will say, how users will react to what you're doing. Of course, we wanted to raise funds. And we did, 55 00:04:51,190 --> 00:04:58,670 Yuri Dvoinos: our first Indiegogo campaign raised a quarter million dollars for us, which was twice as 56 00:04:58,670 --> 00:05:04,890 Yuri Dvoinos: more as we wanted to raise. So we think we've exceeded the goal and this was great. But it's really 57 00:05:04,890 --> 00:05:12,190 Yuri Dvoinos: not the number that will fund the entire venture. The reason we wanted to do the Indiegogo campaign is actually 58 00:05:12,190 --> 00:05:17,630 Yuri Dvoinos: less of the revenue aspect of that, which is, I think, is counterintuitive for a lot of people 59 00:05:17,630 --> 00:05:23,610 Yuri Dvoinos: that I talk who are, you know, exploring the hardware ventures. And the biggest value, 60 00:05:23,730 --> 00:05:29,190 Yuri Dvoinos: the biggest value out of that, of the Indiegogo campaign was the feedback from backers and, 61 00:05:29,190 --> 00:05:33,390 Yuri Dvoinos: you know, the community that we created around them because we had a vehicle to communicate them, 62 00:05:33,490 --> 00:05:40,770 Yuri Dvoinos: provide feedback. And also, what will resonate and what sort of aspects of the product does 63 00:05:40,770 --> 00:05:47,430 Yuri Dvoinos: resonate, what are their wishes for or requests for product fine-tuning? So you get 64 00:05:47,430 --> 00:05:51,410 Yuri Dvoinos: this immediate high-quality product feedback from people who are beckon you with real money. 65 00:05:52,110 --> 00:05:55,330 Yuri Dvoinos: And that that's probably was the most beautiful part of this campaign. 66 00:05:55,710 --> 00:06:01,110 Kevin Mako: That's so powerful. And it's such a big part of crowdfunding. We've talked about it a bunch on the show, 67 00:06:01,110 --> 00:06:05,830 Kevin Mako: and we've done a lot of stuff on tricks and tips around actually building the crowdfunding campaign. 68 00:06:06,250 --> 00:06:11,230 Kevin Mako: But what I wanted to talk to you today was about more of that feedback loop, because you 69 00:06:11,230 --> 00:06:16,530 Kevin Mako: were one who really took that to heart, focused on feedback as your number one priority, as you 70 00:06:16,530 --> 00:06:21,270 Kevin Mako: mentioned. And as a result of that, you got this incredible feedback from people who 71 00:06:21,270 --> 00:06:25,730 Kevin Mako: had actually pulled out their credit card and pre-purchased your product. So you get to know what 72 00:06:25,730 --> 00:06:29,610 Kevin Mako: they like about your offering, what they don't like about the offering. And then, of course, 73 00:06:29,950 --> 00:06:34,130 Kevin Mako: you've already got these customers lined up. So it's an amazing double-edged sword where you're 74 00:06:34,130 --> 00:06:39,230 Kevin Mako: getting this great feedback. And at the same time, then you're all, you've also had those sales ready to 75 00:06:39,230 --> 00:06:45,150 Kevin Mako: go. What you then did is leverage that to another campaign through that feedback. So, you know, 76 00:06:45,150 --> 00:06:46,510 Kevin Mako: for my notes here, I'm just looking at your 77 00:06:46,530 --> 00:06:53,370 Kevin Mako: campaign, you had almost 700 backers just on your first campaign, $358,000 U.S. 78 00:06:53,370 --> 00:07:00,730 Yuri Dvoinos: in funding. What happened after that? Well, let me just say that what happens right after you 79 00:07:00,730 --> 00:07:05,870 Yuri Dvoinos: close the crowdfunding campaign with that results, you celebrate. You absolutely celebrate because 80 00:07:05,870 --> 00:07:11,530 Yuri Dvoinos: it's an absolute win. You want to acknowledge the mom that you've done something right, for sure. 81 00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:16,700 Yuri Dvoinos: But then what happens next is a lot of hard work and it's your next chapter. 82 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:24,420 Yuri Dvoinos: In our case, we delivered the prototype and part of this was working really 83 00:07:24,420 --> 00:07:31,520 Yuri Dvoinos: hard to fine-tune things, to make sure that everything will work well as we start shipping the 84 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:37,230 Yuri Dvoinos: product. But the other part, which we were doing in parallel, was also evangelizing the product a lot. 85 00:07:37,650 --> 00:07:44,390 Yuri Dvoinos: We were participating in the NAMM Show in Nashville, and we got Best of Show Award. 86 00:07:44,750 --> 00:07:45,090 Yuri Dvoinos: Nice. 87 00:07:45,090 --> 00:07:51,180 Yuri Dvoinos: which was, yeah, it was very, very nice. This was in 2018. So next year after we did 88 00:07:51,180 --> 00:07:58,180 Yuri Dvoinos: the first Indiegogo campaign, that got us a lot of traction and a lot of interest and feedback from 89 00:07:58,180 --> 00:08:05,140 Yuri Dvoinos: folks who were into the music industry. And I guess even before we really start, like, selling 90 00:08:05,140 --> 00:08:13,000 Yuri Dvoinos: the product, we realized that there was a clear signal of what audience, of what segment of our 91 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,300 Yuri Dvoinos: customers, like, really want to get the product. 92 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:21,140 Yuri Dvoinos: play, the most excited. So it seemed to us that the biggest fit was with music professionals. 93 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:27,500 Yuri Dvoinos: This is a relatively niche audience. So it's a smaller audience from a segmentation perspective, 94 00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:33,500 Yuri Dvoinos: but they were, they got it immediately. They wanted it. They were okay with the price. At the time, 95 00:08:33,500 --> 00:08:41,920 Yuri Dvoinos: we were selling like $4,500 MSRP, which is a pretty high price for a music gadget. And we got, 96 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,300 Yuri Dvoinos: we managed to get a lot of feedback. And at a time, I remember that, 97 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:52,640 Yuri Dvoinos: I really like two DJs. I think they are Italian, Giolì & Assia. And I follow them 98 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:59,040 Yuri Dvoinos: on Insta, and one of those days, I wake up, I watch their story, and they're jamming with our product. 99 00:08:59,300 --> 00:09:05,420 Yuri Dvoinos: Like, I literally fall out of the bat. I was like, amazing. No way. It's just up until now, 100 00:09:05,420 --> 00:09:12,590 Yuri Dvoinos: I remember this moment and it gives me such a big kick. Those moments. And then, of course, 101 00:09:12,670 --> 00:09:15,370 Yuri Dvoinos: there were other musicians who tried our product. 102 00:09:15,570 --> 00:09:22,090 Yuri Dvoinos: they gave us this feedback. So this is, I think, was the biggest learning out of all those 103 00:09:22,090 --> 00:09:29,430 Yuri Dvoinos: things within the two years that we really wanted to nail the professional segment. And in order 104 00:09:29,430 --> 00:09:35,070 Yuri Dvoinos: to do that, we felt that we need to launch the second generation of the product. So not only this 105 00:09:35,070 --> 00:09:41,970 Yuri Dvoinos: was a portable guitar, but this was a fully functional media instrument. So you could have played 106 00:09:41,970 --> 00:09:45,250 Yuri Dvoinos: using strings techniques. You could have played 107 00:09:45,250 --> 00:09:49,630 Yuri Dvoinos: would win, you could have played whatever you wanted to, just like with a synthesizer. 108 00:09:50,370 --> 00:09:56,690 Yuri Dvoinos: And we've done a lot to focus on those, on that group. And this is why we launched the second 109 00:09:56,690 --> 00:10:02,710 Yuri Dvoinos: crowdfunding campaign, which actually was launched on both Indiegogo and Kickstarter. I was another learning. 110 00:10:02,830 --> 00:10:07,830 Yuri Dvoinos: The audiences are different. When we were launching the first crowdfunding campaign, we had such a heated 111 00:10:07,830 --> 00:10:12,670 Yuri Dvoinos: debate. It's like, no, we have to go Indiegogo. We know there are some guys are saying the results are 112 00:10:12,670 --> 00:10:15,090 Yuri Dvoinos: better. And other was like, no, we have to do Kickstarter. 113 00:10:15,250 --> 00:10:20,010 Yuri Dvoinos: is more credible. Like, do both. What we've learned, the audience, they don't, they don't 114 00:10:20,010 --> 00:10:25,950 Yuri Dvoinos: overlap. We've managed to collect almost half a million dollars from both platforms by running 115 00:10:25,950 --> 00:10:31,130 Yuri Dvoinos: them to relatively same time. There's a couple big things there that I love that you mentioned 116 00:10:31,130 --> 00:10:38,270 Kevin Mako: in your story here. One of them was that you identified in the early days before you ran the campaign 117 00:10:38,270 --> 00:10:41,370 Kevin Mako: a potential customer segment. You say, hey, this would be great. If we could have a super 118 00:10:41,370 --> 00:10:44,770 Kevin Mako: or pull their ball guitar. People would love this. To throw in their backpack, whatever. 119 00:10:45,410 --> 00:10:50,010 Kevin Mako: But what you did with the crowdfunding campaign is you really isolated your best customers, 120 00:10:50,390 --> 00:10:55,270 Kevin Mako: especially for the type of product, A, that you had then, but that also you maybe had vision to 121 00:10:55,270 --> 00:10:59,810 Kevin Mako: grow into at a later stage. And that's the second thing that I thought was so profound about what you're 122 00:10:59,810 --> 00:11:04,310 Kevin Mako: talking about. And something that a lot of hardware startup struggle with is not having too many 123 00:11:04,310 --> 00:11:09,890 Kevin Mako: features or not doing feature creep on their first version. You very carefully put out a first 124 00:11:09,890 --> 00:11:13,490 Kevin Mako: version that didn't have the full suite that you mentioned in your second version. 125 00:11:13,970 --> 00:11:19,490 Kevin Mako: You listen to your customers on selling the first one, which was successful. You isolated a target 126 00:11:19,490 --> 00:11:24,230 Kevin Mako: market that wanted it. People bought it before it was even on the shelves. They bought it on crowdfunding, 127 00:11:24,230 --> 00:11:30,740 Kevin Mako: which is a real testament to the quality of the idea, the fact that they're willing to pull out their 128 00:11:30,740 --> 00:11:35,440 Kevin Mako: credit card before that thing is even able to be tried in a store or any other way, especially 129 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:40,060 Kevin Mako: for a musical instrument. And then you use that feedback from those customers to figure 130 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,760 Kevin Mako: figure out, okay, what are we really going to do to nail the market on a second round? 131 00:11:43,780 --> 00:11:47,220 Kevin Mako: And your second campaign was almost twice the size across Kickstarter and Indiegogo, like you said, 132 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:52,980 Kevin Mako: over a half a million dollar raise now for the version 2.0 or the pro version, you guys called it 133 00:11:52,980 --> 00:11:58,200 Kevin Mako: the Jammy EVO at the time. So that's so important for a hardware startup that's just at the very early stages 134 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,940 Kevin Mako: of product development to think, what am I going to launch with? Even if it's not the vision, 135 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,720 Kevin Mako: what I eventually want to do down the road, know that it's always easier, especially as a limited 136 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,860 Kevin Mako: budget hardware startup to start with your MVP version, but of course, never sacrifice in 137 00:12:11,860 --> 00:12:16,100 Kevin Mako: quality. Make sure you have a great quality product. Listen to your customers on your first campaign 138 00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:19,520 Kevin Mako: or your first sales. It doesn't even have to be crowdfunding. However you're selling it, you'd be 139 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:24,820 Kevin Mako: selling it through retailers, wholesalers, partners, distribution channels, influencers, direct to customers, 140 00:12:24,820 --> 00:12:28,720 Kevin Mako: whatever it might be. The point is to get your first version out to market, listen to those 141 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,620 Kevin Mako: customers, and then use that. As you said, this was more important than the money to you on your 142 00:12:32,620 --> 00:12:37,180 Kevin Mako: first campaign, using that feedback in order to make a great product for your version 2.0. 143 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:59,300 Yuri Dvoinos: Yeah, I think that's right. I think you hit this on the nail. I think we also, what we've also done, we understood the hardware components much better, so we were able to reduce the MSRP price. We shaved almost 100 bucks, which was easier because, of course, you get this feedback, like, just make it cheaper is too expensive. I think it's universal. 144 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:07,480 Yuri Dvoinos: Price is just, it's such a critical aspect to the hardware business. And this is, I think, part of the things that make it really hard. 145 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,820 Yuri Dvoinos: There is so much that's happening. 146 00:13:09,980 --> 00:13:13,100 Yuri Dvoinos: Cash flow is interesting for the hardware components. 147 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,720 Yuri Dvoinos: But my biggest learning is that definitely do the crowdfunding. 148 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,040 Yuri Dvoinos: You secure the revenue early in. 149 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,080 Yuri Dvoinos: This is probably one of the nicest things that you can do about the hardware business. 150 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,360 Yuri Dvoinos: Because the revenue comes in, almost like pre-sales, pre-waters, good validation, 151 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:31,360 Yuri Dvoinos: early feedback without necessarily hitting the shelves. 152 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:32,680 Yuri Dvoinos: And then, yeah. 153 00:13:33,260 --> 00:13:37,520 Yuri Dvoinos: My only other learning that we've done after lunch in 154 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:45,090 Yuri Dvoinos: crowdfunding campaigns is that it was interesting how direct sales through our own 155 00:13:45,090 --> 00:13:51,740 Yuri Dvoinos: online store were actually lower than Amazon sales. 156 00:13:51,980 --> 00:13:56,600 Yuri Dvoinos: And I've really learned that unless you have a really good brand, unless you have a really good 157 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:01,400 Yuri Dvoinos: credibility, like people, people would rather order your products on Amazon. 158 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:06,020 Yuri Dvoinos: And I initially thought this was just the brand and credibility thing. 159 00:14:06,020 --> 00:14:07,980 Yuri Dvoinos: And then I actually discovered that it's also for. 160 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:13,520 Yuri Dvoinos: convenience because Amazon have prime and expedited deliveries and all of those beautiful 161 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:13,920 Yuri Dvoinos: things. 162 00:14:14,420 --> 00:14:15,980 Yuri Dvoinos: You probably don't have that. 163 00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:20,420 Yuri Dvoinos: So most likely people will expect you to be there. 164 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,660 Yuri Dvoinos: And that's, you know, something else that you need to plan and be diligent about from a 165 00:14:25,660 --> 00:14:27,940 Yuri Dvoinos: cash flow perspective and in a business model perspective. 166 00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:30,020 Kevin Mako: Well, that's a nice thing about crowdfunding too. 167 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,860 Kevin Mako: You can launch via crowdfunding, learn all of these great things, improve your processes, 168 00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:37,980 Kevin Mako: both on the product market fit, but also on the manufacturing side. 169 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,860 Kevin Mako: so that when you're ready to launch on Amazon, you're going to do a great job. 170 00:14:41,980 --> 00:14:42,840 Kevin Mako: You're going to get great reviews. 171 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,220 Kevin Mako: As we all know, Amazon reviews are so important. 172 00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:49,320 Kevin Mako: So make sure that you're developing a product that's great that really is matching that customer. 173 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,340 Kevin Mako: And what better way to learn than through your crowdfunding campaign? 174 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,480 Kevin Mako: Something that you highlighted there too, we talk a lot about in scaling the business and something 175 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,260 Kevin Mako: is important for a hardware startup to consider is the fact that your first production run is not going 176 00:15:02,260 --> 00:15:03,100 Kevin Mako: to be your cheapest. 177 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:04,940 Kevin Mako: It almost never is going to be your cheapest. 178 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:06,300 Kevin Mako: First of all, it's just low volume. 179 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:07,980 Kevin Mako: So you don't have economies. 180 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:09,600 Kevin Mako: of scale to have the negotiating power. 181 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,820 Kevin Mako: But in addition to that, as you grow, not only are you getting volume, but you're also learning 182 00:15:14,820 --> 00:15:19,160 Kevin Mako: a lot about the design and engineering process and really fine-tuning a lot of those details. 183 00:15:19,740 --> 00:15:24,340 Kevin Mako: Arguably, you should almost over-engineer your product in the beginning, but again, that doesn't 184 00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:25,460 Kevin Mako: mean over-engineer features. 185 00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:28,720 Kevin Mako: Less features, but really well-engineered features. 186 00:15:29,220 --> 00:15:35,180 Kevin Mako: And then as you scale, you can actually figure out how to maybe reduce some of the over-engineering 187 00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:37,980 Kevin Mako: on, let's call it the excessive quality. 188 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,360 Kevin Mako: maybe or maybe not, depending on how your product's going. 189 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,120 Kevin Mako: But you could look at those things, especially with scale, spend some time with your designers, 190 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:48,920 Kevin Mako: your engineers, et cetera, really drilling down on costing down. 191 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,500 Kevin Mako: It's an exercise that does have a cost. 192 00:15:51,580 --> 00:15:52,140 Kevin Mako: It is expensive. 193 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,640 Kevin Mako: It is something that's done both with design engineers and your manufacturing engineers, 194 00:15:55,740 --> 00:15:57,860 Kevin Mako: the manufacturer itself, the supply chain around that. 195 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,840 Kevin Mako: So once you have that volume, you're in a much better position to negotiate, but you're also 196 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,200 Kevin Mako: far more intelligent at the processes. 197 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,980 Kevin Mako: And also you have the money to spend the effort on all. 198 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,700 Kevin Mako: all those tiny little details that really don't make sense for a version 1.0, but may make 199 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:17,040 Kevin Mako: sense when you're moving from hundreds of units to thousands and eventually on to tens of 200 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:17,860 Kevin Mako: thousands of thousands of units. 201 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,720 Yuri Dvoinos: Yeah, I think you got this right. 202 00:16:21,220 --> 00:16:27,160 Yuri Dvoinos: The only other thing I wanted to mention about our crowdfunding campaign is that what worked best 203 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,760 Yuri Dvoinos: for us, and this is like a smaller tactics, I guess, is we've done both. 204 00:16:31,860 --> 00:16:36,340 Yuri Dvoinos: We've done like a professional video, which was recorded in the studio, and we've also done 205 00:16:36,340 --> 00:16:44,010 Yuri Dvoinos: like a semi-professional, almost like indie type of video by one of our most 206 00:16:44,010 --> 00:16:47,650 Yuri Dvoinos: passionate employees, who's also like a stellar guitar player. 207 00:16:48,130 --> 00:16:49,810 Yuri Dvoinos: And I think that resonated much better. 208 00:16:50,660 --> 00:16:58,000 Yuri Dvoinos: The story from your own words, from your own team, showcasing the product, we really just had 209 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,700 Yuri Dvoinos: that person jamming in the car. 210 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:02,640 Yuri Dvoinos: And this was so powerful. 211 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:04,700 Yuri Dvoinos: And he did like a really good job. 212 00:17:04,820 --> 00:17:05,840 Yuri Dvoinos: It was a really good music. 213 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:11,500 Yuri Dvoinos: And every single time I talk to anyone who was, you know, was seeing those campaigns, 214 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,160 Yuri Dvoinos: they're like, oh, no, I remember that guy. 215 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,700 Yuri Dvoinos: I was like, yeah, it's actually one of us. 216 00:17:16,460 --> 00:17:17,300 Kevin Mako: Yeah, that's great. 217 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,960 Kevin Mako: You can never discount user-generated content, whether it's your staff, whether it's yourself 218 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,700 Kevin Mako: as a founder, whether it's your customers. 219 00:17:23,940 --> 00:17:28,540 Kevin Mako: This stuff goes a long way, especially as you look at more advanced marketing or even just 220 00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:29,700 Kevin Mako: validation down the road. 221 00:17:30,020 --> 00:17:34,700 Kevin Mako: Maybe your primary video is a professionally shot video, but the next video is somebody using 222 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:34,920 Kevin Mako: it. 223 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:35,820 Kevin Mako: And maybe you're doing. 224 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,500 Kevin Mako: retargeting videos after that that are showing different people using it in different ways. 225 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,480 Kevin Mako: There's lots of different things depending on the type of product. But especially today, in 226 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:49,900 Kevin Mako: 24, people love authentic content. One of the big things that we talk about a lot on the show is 227 00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:53,740 Kevin Mako: being the person behind the brand. Don't be afraid to get in front of a camera. It doesn't have to be 228 00:17:53,740 --> 00:17:59,580 Kevin Mako: professional. Use your smartphone and just shoot a video of what you're working on on the product, 229 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,520 Kevin Mako: what you love about the product as the founder, what you're doing. And people will resonate with 230 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,640 Kevin Mako: that because big corporate can't do this. 231 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,520 Kevin Mako: Big corporate doesn't have the ability to, they have to outsource that to somebody who they 232 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:16,300 Kevin Mako: pay. You are doing it authentically and people see that, especially end customers. So it might be 233 00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:22,180 Kevin Mako: the tipping point that gets them to place an order on pre-purchases via crowdfunding as opposed to waiting 234 00:18:22,180 --> 00:18:28,400 Kevin Mako: to see it in the store. You know, that might be the difference, that authenticity, whereas if they were 235 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,440 Kevin Mako: hesitant before, they saw you, they trusted you, they loved your vision, they loved what you loved 236 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:37,080 Kevin Mako: about the product, they felt that connection and therefore they made a purchase decision. 237 00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:44,920 Kevin Mako: So certainly think about that authentic video, which means low cost or even free. That's something 238 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:50,440 Kevin Mako: that's always great for a hardware startup. 100%. You're very much appreciated for all your words of wisdom 239 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,540 Kevin Mako: today and we look forward to talking to you again. Absolutely. 240 00:18:53,540 --> 00:18:55,540 Yuri Dvoinos: Thank you for having me. Thanks and take 241 00:18:55,540 --> 00:19:01,240 Kevin Mako: care. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast. If you found some value in the 242 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:06,080 Kevin Mako: show, please do us a huge favor and hit the like button and subscribe. If you have any 243 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:11,340 Kevin Mako: questions, guest suggestions, or anything else, feel free to reach out to us anytime at our email, 244 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:18,900 Kevin Mako: podcast at MakoDesign.com. This show is hosted by Kevin Mako, North America's leading expert on product 245 00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:24,420 Kevin Mako: development for hardware startups, and the podcast is produced by Mako Design, the original firm 246 00:19:24,420 --> 00:19:29,520 Kevin Mako: providing end-to-end consumer product development services tailored specifically to hardware startups, 247 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:36,060 Kevin Mako: small manufacturers and inventors. Take your product from IDEA to store shelves at MakoDesign.com. 248 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:41,620 Kevin Mako: That's M-A-K-O-Design.com. Thanks for joining and see you again soon.