Worship leader, worship musician, sound tech teacher, mother, father.

These are all titles of a role that we may fill, but it is not the only thing that we are.

Today.

On worship leader Pod, I sit down with a great friend of mine, Brian Cox, and we talk about how we are more than our title.

Brian, who is a very gifted drummer, gives practical and spiritual application from his new book, more than a drummer that will encourage and inspire you to live fully.

And not just your title that you carry, but in the identity you have in Christ.

So come join the conversation.

Open your heart and prepare for God to meet you wherever you are.

Let's dive in.

I have an amazing guest with us here today, and his name is Brian.

Cops.

Welcome.

Hey.

So Brian and I go way back.

Like, way back.

Yeah.

Long time.

I mean, how many years have we been friends?

15.

More than 15?

More than 15.

For sure.

Yeah.

Yep.

15 or so.

Yeah.

But we.

We became friends because we were in a band, a christian band, and we traveled and sang and all kinds of things.

And it was cool.

All the shenanigans go with it.

So many late nights, just laughing into my belly hurt because Brian is hilarious.

You're literally one of the funniest people that I know.

And that was not, like, a knock.

That's actually a good thing.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

That's good.

But.

So I knew Brian before he met his beautiful wife, Chelsea, and when they started dating and they got married.

And it's just really cool to see how God's worked in Brian's life.

And so Brian and his beautiful wife live in Costa Mesa in California.

And I'm excited to dive into the conversation because he's had so many different elements of music, leading, worship, producing, all the different things, and I.

And I'm excited to jump into that, but I just wanna hype him up a little bit more.

So him and his wife, right, they live in Costa Mesa, California, and they serve at dwelling place church, where they get to serve alongside Jeremy Riddle.

And Brian gets to travel.

And I didn't even say anything about him, but he's an incredible drummer.

Like, just great.

Like, literally, probably one.

He's gonna say all but for real.

Thank you.

One of the greatest drummers I know.

And I think, like, and I always tell him, I go, if I ever were to travel, like, full time anywhere, my drummer, like, hands down, let's go.

And if it's not you, then you need to lay hands on somebody else to impart exactly what you have to them.

Baron.

He's an amazing drummer.

Travels and tours and he's done such a wide variety of different elements of music, and so I'm excited to jump into this conversation.

And really, the conversation, the title that I had had to kind of a spin off of the book that he just wrote.

So exciting.

It's so good.

It's called more than a drummer.

Unlocking the more God placed in you.

And so I took that title a little bit just to segue into it, because we're going to talk about basically unlocking the more that God is in you.

Like, you're not just a worship leader.

You're not just a singer, you're not just a mom.

You're not just this.

God has more inside of you, and we're going to chat about that, so I'm excited.

Amazing.

Do you have anything to say?

Do you want to add anything?

I don't know.

I'm just so honored to be here.

You know, like, you asked me to.

Come and talk about this.

It's something that we're both deeply passionate about and have been for a long time, and you and Nate as well, like, we all talk about this stuff.

So the fact that we're here and setting time aside to talk about, like, how do we experience more intimacy with our heavenly father?

What?

Like, there's this thing of worship that we love, and it's great, and it's cool.

Like, how.

What's.

What's going on?

Like, what?

Looking under the hood for those who are actively engaging in it.

Like, what is going on?

Yeah.

So I'm just honored to be here.

Yeah, talk about it.

Well, man, and the honors.

Ours as well.

Cause it's gonna be an amazing conversation.

And we already talked about this, but this is basically, like, when we hang out, this is basically what we do.

So this is just, like, you guys are just hanging out with us, really?

We just have mics this time.

Yeah, we just have mics this time.

Yeah.

And so I'm super excited.

What I want to love to jump into is the book that you wrote.

I kind of want you to give us a little bit of the why, but just the heartbeat behind the book and, like, what made you write it and all of the things.

Yeah.

Amazing.

Yeah.

Well, as you said, it's called more than a drummer.

Unlocking the more God placed in you.

And I wanted to write something that explored.

I, uh.

Heart of worship.

Yeah.

Um, so I want to talk about things like purity.

I want to talk about things like consecration, devotion.

I want to, like, what does that look like?

Yeah.

And then how do I grow in my creative skill set of playing the drums.

Yep.

So this is called more than a drummer, obviously, so it's geared, you know, it does get into the drumming weeds, which I love.

I'm a drum nerd, so I love.

Talking about, you know, all that stuff.

But it could, essentially, you could take the idea of, like, how do we.

Pursue holiness and grow in a creative skill set.

Good.

And so this could.

It's kind of a model.

My dream is that there would be more than a bass player, more than.

A worship leader, more than a chef, more than a pilot, more than whatever.

Yeah.

It could be anything.

Like, how do we pair holiness with growing skill set?

So, yeah.

What I know what I love, my first love is the drums.

Musically, it's.

I feel like that's where I can express myself the most.

Yeah.

So I was like, I want to start here.

You know.

Yeah.

It's been great to do other things, and that's fun.

We can get into all that.

Yeah.

But, you know, my home base is.

I always connect.

Yeah.

Like, my heart.

Yeah.

So that's what this is.

It's just an exploration of how do.

I truly honor God with my gift.

Yeah.

How do I honor God first with my life.

Yeah.

Like, honoring him with our gifts follow.

Yes.

Honoring him with our lives.

That's really good.

It's not.

Honoring him with our gifts leads to honoring.

It has to be in the right order.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, no, and that's really good because it's, like, it can get muddy if we do those out of order.

And it's easy to mix those up, too.

Like, the gifting coming before, the holiness, the purity, the consecration, like, all of those things.

And especially when you're in it for so long, and I know that you've, like, you've played drums.

I mean, since I've known you.

But then also probably beyond that, tell me a little bit about your journey getting into playing drums.

Just music in general, and that journey of realizing, like, hey, like, it's beyond just playing the drums at a church on a Sunday.

It's beyond that.

And kind of, like, walk us through that, man.

Such a good question.

So I started.

My mom is a piano teacher, so she started teaching me piano, and we've talked about this for those who are.

We're just meeting.

So she taught me piano, and then I.

I took piano lessons for a few years.

We went to a church that was only piano in Oregon.

But then when I was, like, ten, we moved to a new church, and it was like, rock band church, and I was like, wait a minute.

What is that?

Hold the phone.

Yeah.

And so we went to this outdoor concert, and it was like the drummer did, like, this trash can drum solo ending, and ten year old me is, like, like, mind blown, and I was like, that's it.

That's what I want to do.

And so from there, I just became a sponge of everything.

I, like, fell in love with the drums.

And then years later, I went to a promise keepers with my.

It was like a group from church in Detroit.

And I remember they did an altar call, and my dad was like, do you want to go?

My dad was standing next to me.

It's like, you want to go up?

I was like, yeah, sure.

You know, I'm like, 1415, you know, so we go up, and I, like, said the prayer, and I accepted Jesus into my heart, and I didn't really know what that meant.

I mean, I knew what it meant, but I didn't.

I didn't know what that meant, you know, in terms of trajectory, where things are gonna go, right?

And then I remember when I was 16, I just.

One night, I just felt like God.

I was laying in my bed, and I just felt like God was like, call out to me, just.

And I was like, okay.

I just knew that it was him.

I was like, lord, you're so good.

You're amazing.

This is weird.

It's such a.

At first, it's just like, you don't really know what you're doing.

You're just like, this is just what I need to be doing.

And so from there, I mean, it took.

Oh, man, it took so long to blend because I was so obsessed with the drums.

I wanted to be a famous drummer.

I read all the magazines.

I wanted to be this and that and whatever, but I always, you know, God always sent people into my life to remind me of, like, hey, you're good, but, you know, it's unto something.

It's not unto me.

It's unto something else.

And so different voices in my life encouraging me along the way was just, you know, that was a lifeline for trajectory for me.

So, yeah, from there, it's just like, okay, lord, I remember I used to ask, like, make me the best drummer ever, you know?

And it's.

You know, in one hand, it's like God probably just smiles.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like, you know, because I do believe we can hear from him, and I do believe musically we can grow in the skill of listening.

Like, we can listen spiritually on an instrument.

Yeah.

Like, we can grow in that.

And I believe when we ask God for that, he does answer that prayer.

Just my motivation was like, I want to be the sickest drummer ever.

I wasn't really thinking of, like, lord, I want to honor you with this.

But it wasn't until I was playing and a pastor came over and just started praying over me, and he said, you're more than a drummer.

And I was like, I don't know what that means.

You're like, cool.

Yeah.

Does that mean I need to start practicing the bass, do something?

Yeah, what do I do?

And so that trajectory took years to discover as well.

I'm trying to give, like, a condensed ish version of everything.

Go for it.

That's good.

So what I did was, I was like, okay, well, I'm in school for psychology.

Let me go.

I finished my degree there, and I was like, well, I'll go and get my master's in counseling.

Because there were.

There were some words around, like, counseling and one on one and this kind of a thing.

So I was like, okay, I'll go get my master's in counseling.

I enrolled in school, and I did a year there, and it was great.

I loved it.

But when Chelsea and I were getting married, we had a meeting with the guy who was gonna make our cupcakes, and we went into his shop, and it was honestly a shop like, the size of this room.

And he had awards and magazine write ups and everything, all around everything.

And I was like, man, you really love this.

Yeah.

I was like, how did you get into this?

And he's like, well, I, um.

You know, I.

I was a therapist, and I had all my patients, and I.

One day I went home, and I turned on a cooking show, and they're just baking, and I was like, that's what I want to do.

Wow.

So he was like, I quit everything.

I sold the practice, and now I run the shop.

So I was in the middle of school for counseling at that time, so I was like, that's what I want to do.

I like that.

I want to play the drums, you know, and so.

Oh, I thought you meant to make cupcakes.

Sorry.

Yeah, I was like, that sounds good, too.

I actually have a baking business on the side, and I'm.

No, it's not true.

It's not true.

Although I did make a chocolate souffle.

Is it good?

Amazing.

And it was one and done.

Now I'm retired because I nailed it, and it's, like, one of the hardest things to make.

It sounds hard.

Yeah, it was hard.

It was a total like, I don't know why it worked, honestly, but it.

Was a God thing.

Yeah, it was.

Anyways, I digress.

That's okay.

I love it.

So now I want to try it.

I know.

So.

Okay, so, yeah, well, I retired, so we'll have to try someone else's.

Okay, well, I'll just have to go and do that.

Yeah.

Um.

So, yeah, that's when I just decided, like, lord, I'm gonna go all in, and I don't know what it's gonna look like.

And I just.

I felt like God was calling me into taking.

I don't.

I don't want.

I don't want to put it in a way that people, like, will put pressure on themselves.

But I guess just where I was, where my journey was, I felt like God was like, I'm calling you into taking what I put on your life seriously.

Yeah.

And, like, what I put in you, I want to draw it out of you.

Yeah.

And one way to do that is by just surrendering it all to him.

Like, that's.

That's the only way it is just surrendering.

And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna pursue just being a musician, playing, but I don't.

I'm not on tour anywhere.

I'm not.

I don't teach right now.

You know?

It was almost like I just went and quit all my classes.

And it's like, now what?

Yeah, you know?

And some days it still feels like that, you know, it's like.

It's not like there's an arrival point that I've experienced.

Maybe some people.

Maybe some people get there, but, I.

Mean, your facebook, like, profile picture is pretty epic.

It looks like you've made it.

Oh, I should change that, then.

I'm just kidding.

He's so nervous.

He actually really hates that.

I'm sorry.

It's such a cool picture, though.

Oh, yes.

I know what you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's my apple contact, too.

So it just.

Whenever I call somebody, it's like, it's too much.

It's too much.

It's, like, really cool.

But it's like.

It's really cool.

I need to dial it back for sure.

But anyways, so, yeah, I guess that's all leading to the point of the only way forward is surrender.

Good.

If you feel like God placed something in your heart, give it to him.

That's so good, because he's the only one who will draw it out of you, like, what he put in you.

And so there's no situation.

There's no band, there's no musician, there's no church, there's no, like, I mean, environments can pull us in different ways and, like, bring things out of us, which is awesome.

But just constantly surrendering, like, our gifts to him and, like, no matter where we go, like, lord, this is yours.

How can I serve what you've given me, what you've given me?

And that's, to me, that's the only way to see fruit with anything.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's very true.

Cause when you withhold that surrender, then it becomes almost like an idol.

Cause it's something that you think you can do.

And those situations can happen without it can slip up.

You're like, whoa, wait a minute.

And I find this, even in my personal life, that I, like today.

I was like, God, I just.

I want to live the life of surrender every single day.

Like, you know, even, like, starting this podcast, it's like, this is awesome.

And God's really, like, put it in the desire in my heart to do it and leading me to do it.

But I'm like, lord, even in the excitement with you, him providing the things I need to get this role, and I'm still surrendering this.

This is not mine.

Right.

And I think sometimes, even in the culture, sometimes with me, even I will just say, like, being a worship leader, you almost forget to, like, re surrender the gift totally.

Because there was one point in your life where, you know, that gift to be a worship leader, a drummer singer, was like, oh, really?

Yeah.

Thanks, lord.

Like, I'm honored.

And maybe, you know, and you can.

You'll probably touch on this just like, even what you said about, like, oh, I guess I love drumming.

I guess I'll just, like, go and do that and then, you know, continue to live that life of surrender and doing that and that really, that is what God longs for because that's how our faith, we rely completely on him to do what he's going to do, to open doors, to close doors, all the things.

But I'm a big advocate of surrendering.

Although it's not easy.

No, in fact, it's the hardest.

It's the hardest.

But when you do it, it's better every time.

It's better every time.

And it's never, it's never obvious.

It's.

We're always so we want to know the next thing.

And it's like, okay, a to b.

You know, it's always a to b.

But God does not work that way.

He's like, I'm actually going to take you a, and then I'm going to take you a sideway to l or m or whatever, and you're trying to get to b.

I'm trying to.

I'm trying to either skip steps or I'm trying to take you back, because that's a.

I don't.

You know, it's tough to talk about in an encouraging way because there's.

It's like, some things are just so hard to walk through.

Some things are so hard to give up.

And I think what you touched on was, like, things can become an idol.

Yeah.

And I would say, like, I think we have to actively, like.

Like, when the Bible says, search my heart and know me, was that psalm 139?

Yeah, 23 and 24.

That's impressive.

I would have just said psalms, fact.

Check me, you know?

Yes, but it's, you know, search my heart, find any offensive way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.

It's like, that's a really hard prayer, and we have desires, and we have things that we want to do and accomplish, and it's like, oh, I want to do this, and I want to do that, and I want to do this and I want to do that.

Um.

It's like, surrender is the only thing that will bring fruit, because we can build things on our own.

We can build things apart from God.

We can get good at things.

Yeah.

It's like getting good at something isn't.

I mean, it's hard to do that, but what we're after is fruit.

What we're after is, I want what I do to have an impact.

Like, I want it to have an impact on the king.

Like, I want.

I want to partner with what God is doing 100%.

And so if I.

I just want to build my empire and say, God, can you bless that?

It's.

It doesn't work that way.

It's like, you know, you have to surrender at every level that you go, and so it's actually a good practice.

Yeah.

Like, okay, where are my idols in my life and actively, like, search them out.

Like, lord, show me where my idols are.

What am I placing in front of you?

Yeah.

And it's like, repentance.

Like, just, man, we could go anywhere, but it's.

It's true, you know?

And some people, you see their life, and it's like, everything works out for them, you know?

Why.

Yeah.

Why is it so hard for me?

Yeah.

Everything works out for them.

Yeah.

But it's.

You just don't know what God has led people through or what people, you know, you just.

You just don't know what God is going to do in their lives or is doing in their life or I, whatever it may be.

So, man, there's so many places, and.

As we move on, but also to touch base on in situations where you say, okay, I thought it was gonna go from a to b to c to d to e, and Lord's, like, going here, here and here.

And I was actually just reading a book about humility, but it was talking about how, like, when we expect the ABCDe route, we almost basically lose the effect to see God in the midst.

Yeah.

Because it's so, like, it's so like, well, I know it's gonna happen like this.

And again, that becomes prideful because you're saying, I know the way God doesn't.

So when.

When God decides to change it up and loosen it up and, you know, oh, I thought I'd be writing music by now, or I thought I'd be x, y and z by now.

And God's like, but I don't want you to miss me.

Right.

In the process, I know what's best, better and best for you.

And even that, it's just like, you become so, like, in awe, like God, you just want to be with us.

You just want a relationship with us.

You don't want us just to go through life just doing the things you want us to intimately and personally be in relationship with you.

And he talks to us because in those moments where it is kind of crazy, you know, and you get to a moment in your life, and I know you've probably experienced this many times where things shifted in your life or, you know, things that look the way that you did.

What are you doing?

Then?

You're God.

Where are you?

I need you.

And that.

That conversation may have not happened if you just had everything together.

Oh, you know?

Yes.

So it's a baptism.

It's like, yeah, baptism by fire.

Like, lord, burn off of me.

Yeah.

What is in the way of me seeing your goodness or your.

Where you're leading or like, whatever.

Where that.

Wherever that spiritual fog is.

Yeah.

Like, burn it off, you know, and it's worth it.

And if that means I have to take a couple steps back.

Yeah, it's like a few steps back now might be.

I talk about this a little bit in the book.

It's like, it might be leaps forward in God.

So in the natural, I'm like, oh, I don't want to get rid of that.

I can't give that up right now.

And it's that it's not about, like, what are you giving up?

It's like, I will do anything to gain more of him.

You know?

It's like, it's.

You get to that.

I think that's what repentance is.

Yeah.

It's like you're kind of at that stage of.

What's it called?

It's just like, you're at the point of, like, I can't think of the word that's right.

And I don't want to just start guessing the words, but you just kind of.

I don't want to say no mercy, but you just.

You just.

You.

You're taking it very seriously.

Like, I want that.

I want your life for me.

Sign me up.

Where do I go?

You know?

Yeah.

And how do you, like, maintain that through?

Like, I just think about.

Cause I personally know you.

I know you've gone through, like, you've been in so many different elements, like, music wise, worship wise, but, like, seasons wise.

Like, having, like, you know, as soon as you and Chelsea got married, you guys, like, started a band.

You guys were, like, singing, she was writing music.

And then you guys moved across the country, and there's a.

And even that's a story.

And then you.

You move to a place you don't really love, and it's kind of crazy.

And then you trying to find community and trying to find church, and you're here, and it's like, how do you continue to remain in that, like, surrender or just, like, you know, God, like, trusting, trusting him and just, like, what you're talking about?

That's such a good question.

I don't.

Honestly, I think it's.

For me, it's been seasonal.

Yeah.

There are some seasons where I have a really good pulse on, like, lord, we are.

We're locked in.

Yeah, we're like, we're.

You know, this is awesome.

There are some seasons where it's, like, not that way at all.

And so there were definitely some moments of.

And there still are moments of just, like, lord, this.

This is not working.

Yeah.

I don't know what to do.

I don't hear you.

Yeah, I'm very frustrated.

I don't have any sense, you know?

So it's.

It's.

It's a relationship.

Yeah.

You know, it's.

It's like a marriage.

You know?

It's like there's.

You know, one of the best ways to grow in your marriage is just getting good at communicating to each other.

It doesn't necessarily mean everything's gonna work out.

Right.

You're just figuring out how to talk to each other.

And I think.

I mean, our walk with God is so similar.

It's.

Yeah, some days I.

I have a sense of your nature, and I am so in love with you, and some days I'm just like, yeah, all right.

I'm just going off of past equity of walking with the Lord.

Cause I don't.

It's not working today, you know?

And some people might be different, but just for me, it's just.

It has to be honest.

Yeah.

You know?

So.

Yeah, I don't know.

I hope that.

Yeah, no, it's good.

I just wanted to see where.

Yeah.

Cause I.

You know, every season, like, you're saying it is different and, like, how we continue to remain steadfast in surrendering to the Lord.

And I think it's just all about recognizing that, like, oh, even the moments where, like, God, where are you?

Then you start, like, getting worried, like, okay, God, no, for real, where are you?

But then you press in and you don't, you know, hide or go away.

You just.

You press into to the Lord and his voice and just, like, the relationship aspect of that.

And I know every.

Again, every season does definitely look different.

And especially, like.

Like, when you are kind of, like, busy.

And maybe we'll talk about this.

Because when you get busy with, like, music stuff and, like, rehearsals or, you know, late nights in the studio or, like, different things like that, like, even in those moments, you can still be surrendered in those without, you know, I guess, like, throwing the baby out, just, like, knowing that everything that you're doing is a conversation with the Lord and is surrendering to the Lord as well.

But I thought I was going somewhere else with that, but I can't remember.

So that's okay.

No, it's great.

It's good.

But that's.

Yeah, that's kind of my thought.

Yeah, I think it's.

The through line is like, God, you are faithful.

Lord, you are faithful.

You are kind.

You're so good.

Like, if at the end of the day, if you need to.

If you need anything, it's like, lord, you're good.

I have no words.

We were created to worship, right?

If we.

If it's like, for those who don't cry out, the rocks will cry out, right?

So I don't need a rock crying out on my behalf.

No, not today.

Not today.

And so it's like, lord, you're good.

I love you.

And if.

Even if things don't make sense and there are hard.

There are true hardships, there are true difficulties, that people walk through, we lose loved ones, we get diagnosis.

You know, there are.

There are things that are just so brutal to walk through.

And that's why I think we're so relational as well, because that's when it's like, you know, you have people around that can help you through it.

You know, it is an individual relationship with him, but it's also relationship with each other and just being rooted in a community and just keeping our eyes on him, like, lord, you're faithful.

Lord, you're good.

Yeah.

I don't understand anything that's happening, but you're faithful.

Yeah.

You know, it's gonna be okay.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah.

That's so good.

I love that.

I have another question for you.

Okay.

I have a lot of questions, but I'm trying to figure out which we're gonna go, but I really wanna tap into the how of, like.

And you can touch base on this in the context of your book and your personal experience of, like, what you did or things that you experienced to help you unlock the more of God inside of you.

Because I even think about.

There's this part in the book where you were talking about how you felt like, well, there's tons of other drummers that are way better than me.

Like, just let them do it.

Like, I don't really matter.

It's not, you know, me adding, you know, I can.

And you can say that about anybody, you know, like, worship leader.

Like, if you're new, you want to be a worship leader, and you're like, well, there's enough worship leaders out there.

You know, what would.

What would I add to it?

And I know that a lot of that is just not knowing who you are.

It's just a lack of identity.

But, like, how do we overcome that as creatives and worship leaders and musicians and singers to then?

Because the reason why we kind of go through these patches is to also help other people into that.

So maybe talk a little bit about, like, what was it for you that helped you unlock that?

And then just, you know, any wisdom you have in that?

So, such a good question.

I think, you know, a couple of things have happened, and I want to be.

I want to be careful here, because I'm not against song arrangements.

I'm not against.

Hey, we're going to do this song this way.

Everybody play it.

This part.

Like, when it comes to unifying a team, parts matter.

It helps.

It's like, hey, I practice this way.

I heard your part this way.

I heard your part this way.

It unifies everybody yes, absolutely.

Which is awesome.

That's great.

The danger with perfection.

I'll say the danger with simply executing is that there's no creativity involved.

And so when there's a situation of, like, oh, I just.

Man, so and so is so amazing.

A lot of times it's because there's an environment where they've been allowed to be creative and make stuff up on the spot.

It's like a playroom where there are no rules and there's paint and there's walls and you can just, you know.

And so I always encourage anybody, drummers, any musicians, whatever you do.

Yeah.

Like, put yourself in an environment where there are no rules, there's no bpM, there's no groove there, you know, whatever, just play your instrument.

It's almost like a form of, like.

Like you're improving by yourself.

Yeah.

And it feels so weird at first because it's like, well, I'm.

I'm better when I'm playing with the song.

Like, we all are.

Yeah.

Like, that's like, it's gonna work.

Like, playing the song is going to work.

Yeah.

But it's not inf.

It's not enforcing, like, the creative muscle.

Yeah.

And I think I.

God has placed a unique sound in everybody, and we can invite him into the process, and I think this is really.

I think this is linked to purity as well.

Good.

I think pursuing holiness, like, just tuning our souls to him is like, that's what we were talking about earlier.

That's step one right now.

Step two.

I want to be an awesome drummer.

That's great.

Just don't flip it.

And so you can just kind of listen spiritually.

There's creativity that happens.

There are things that are like, I would have never thought of this, or I felt like God was playing through me or so many great worship moments where that happens.

And a lot of times it's because you've been able to throw the playbook out a little bit.

Yes.

Not only individually, but the whole team.

Yeah.

And so sometimes it's just in the overall culture, and that's why I said I want to be careful, because some, it's like, it's okay.

Like, if you have.

If.

If you have one acoustic guitar player, a bass player, and a singer and tracks, that's fine.

That's okay.

Yeah.

You know, some environments, it's like, we just don't.

Can't do that.

That's fine.

But what are ways that you can, you know, if you're home by yourself playing, what are ways you can start infusing ideas into your playing and it's.

It's baby steps.

Yeah.

And so when you look at somebody like so and so who's.

Oh, I want to be like that.

There's probably been a lot of opportunity to be creative and just a lot of situations.

Trial by fire.

Yeah.

Which I've had a.

So many of those.

It's like, okay, I need to make a decision right now.

It's gonna fall off a cliff musically if I make the wrong one.

That's a, that's a healthy pressure.

That's okay.

You know, not for everybody.

It's like, work into it.

That's why arranged songs are fine, but when you start getting into, especially in spontaneous land.

Yeah.

It's like when the playbook goes out the window.

Yeah.

We now need a, we now need to all agree on where we're gonna go go and what we're gonna do.

And I think just a general interest in.

Oh, this is such a big question.

I'm sorry.

No, you're doing great.

I'm trying to land it, but for me personally, I just love playing the drums.

I love when a kick pattern is a 16th note over from like another way of doing.

You know what I mean?

It's like, I just love that stuff.

Yeah.

For me, that's driven a lot of just exploration.

And another thought I've been having recently is that excellence is exploration.

When we talk about excellence, what does that mean exactly?

Yeah, I think it's just approaching things with an exploring mindset.

It's like a curious mindset.

So if you come in and it's like, hey, I want to try this, and then someone else is like, no, we're not doing that.

Blah, blah, blah.

I don't know, man, let's try it.

And then if it doesn't work, great, we'll go back to the other, you know, it's like we're not doing brain surgery, right?

We're not landing planes.

My sister's an air traffic controller and so there are like, you know, 3400 people in the sky that she's like responsible for landing safely.

And that, to me.

Yeah, is stressful.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Messing up a drum fill in front of some people, like, that's embarrassing, but nobody, like, there are no, you know, there's no consequences for that.

And so I think just taking the seriousness out of it, it's like, worship isn't a bar to be met.

It's an expression to be made.

Yes.

And that's what we get to do.

Yeah.

You know, and it's almost like that's the freedom of the Lord.

Yeah.

That's like everything you're saying is just like, it was for freedom that we were set free.

Like, that's kind of the whole point.

And so when you can go into a rehearsal, and I've done this many times or so, we're just gonna.

We're just gonna rest here.

Yes.

We're just gonna go, like, I don't know where this is gonna go.

And.

And we get our feet wet, and then all of a sudden, people are like, okay.

And really going off script is my favorite because it's like a.

It heightens your faith.

She's like, okay, God, here we go.

It's on you.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, I'm.

Here we go.

Like, help me out, you know?

Totally.

But then it also creates unity within the team, because then it's like, I'm taking a step to go out into freedom, and I'm calling everyone else to do the same, and it's timid.

And you can tell when people are like, I'm not really sure.

This is not on the court chart, you know, or whatever, but then it's like, then they step into it, and then there's this freedom, and then it overflows to the room, and then all of a sudden, you're in freedom.

Yeah.

And, like, there's.

There's a beautifulness to that when you can cultivate that in rehearsal, and I used to.

I have a keyboard player that used to always say, well, I practice the song, but I also practice the presence in the song.

So it's like you're practicing at home, just like what you said.

Just play.

Just go.

And when you don't create space to just do that, then.

Yeah.

It's easy to get super rigid, and then you're not really stepping into the more that God has.

You're just kind of, like.

You're holding tight to what, you know, instead of just going for it, you know?

And then that then stifles the.

Could stifle the team, and then, you know, so on.

There's, like, an effect.

Yeah.

Don't you think?

100%.

Yeah.

Because it's.

It.

You kind of feel that.

Yeah.

You can feel the tenseness of.

I'm trying to nail these parts.

Yeah.

And take it.

Sure.

Take it seriously.

Sure.

Of course.

That's.

That's preparation to me.

That's preparation.

Like, if you're listening to songs on the way to service.

Yeah.

Granted.

Okay.

Sure.

You have some weeks that are.

Sometimes it happens.

It happens.

Totally happens if there's a pattern.

Right?

If it's like, hey, every time you're here.

Yeah.

You don't.

You don't know, like, what the plan is.

You know, you don't know the songs.

You don't.

You know, it's.

You're not really paying attention.

Yeah.

That's like.

Well, maybe we talk about why.

You know, why you're here.

Because it's like, this is such an opportunity.

Yeah.

For us to come into the house of the Lord.

Shoot.

This is like, we get to bring our gifts and actually.

Okay, this is.

It's psalm time.

Psalm time.

I thought.

I thought I might talk about this.

I have not made it through this verse without crying.

Okay.

Do you want me to get some tissues?

No, I'll be fine.

Okay.

I'll be fine.

I might well up.

I'll be all right.

I'll make it.

So this is psalm 84.

Okay, here we go.

Yeah.

Verse ten and eleven.

I'll just do twelve.

It's short, too, right.

For a day in your courts is better than a thousand elsewhere.

I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my goddess than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

For the Lord God is a sun and shield.

The Lord bestows favor and honor.

No good thing does he withhold from those who walk uprightly.

Wow.

O Lord of hosts, blessed is the one who trusts in you, man.

One day I'll get through it.

But the part that really has just been wrecking me is I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my goddess and dwell in the tents of the wicked.

Yeah.

You know, and we talk about, like, worship and just doing the thing, being on stage and how do we be more awesome?

And that's great.

I love all of that.

But it's like, just the posture is like, lord, I would rather be here.

I'd rather just stand at the door.

Yeah.

Like, I just want to.

I just want to be here.

I just want to be in your presence.

Anything beyond that is a bonus.

Yeah.

If I get to play drums here.

Yeah.

Does it get any better if I get to lead worship here in your house?

Me?

You know, it's like that level of humility is like.

I think that's.

That's how we honor him.

It's like, lord, I want to revere your house, and if I get to bring my gifts here, like, how humbling is that?

You know?

Yeah.

And it really ties into this, like, this image of, like, bringing something to God.

Like, we can bring something to goddess that he will smile upon that.

He will welcome, like, I have something to bring to him.

And it, you know, it may even be, you know, me singing and my voice cracking.

But guess what?

Like, I'm bringing an offering to the Lord.

And he looks on that and he said he'll stand and smell the incense.

Like, that aroma, that offering.

Like, I just.

Every time I lead worship, I just get so fired up.

Cause it's like, God, all these people are here to bring you something.

And, like, I would rather be just like, you anywhere, even in my own home.

To be able to worship the Lord, to bring him something, anywhere at any time, is just, like, a mind blowing thing for me.

And he's always, like, excited to get.

He's, like, giddy.

He's like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm going to ride on the praises of my people.

I'm going to show up.

I'm going to show.

I'm going to walk in that room and I'm going to reveal myself to these people.

Like, there are revelations that God just continues to blow on the people of God and people who invite him to just come.

And it just goes back, like, what you're saying, to the purity, to the purity of heart.

Like, I know that when I show up to a rehearsal and I'm coming in, I'm not just bringing this gift, this thing.

It's before that.

It's my heart.

It's the purity of that.

And I know, like, even in the book, you touched on just like, how, like, we are all bringing God this offering, and in rehearsal or practice time, that's really, like, preparing that offering to bring to the Lord.

And I just love that idea.

It just gets me fired up.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a verse in first kings that I talk about.

It's one kings, six and seven.

And the whole premise I wanted to write about was like, yeah, I want to talk about how they built a temple.

It's like, it's going to be great.

And then I read it, and it talks about how they.

No tools.

Nothing was used at the site of the temple.

Wow.

I was like, oh, my entire thing was going to be like, the building at the temple.

It kind of crumbled.

Everything that I wanted to talk about.

Yeah.

So I was like, okay, start over.

But then I read the part that said they dressed the blocks off site at the quarry.

That's where they chiseled.

That's where all the noisy construction took place, where they chiseled and smoothed and rounded blocks so that way they could bring them to the temple, because they considered the temple, like, a reverent place, so they didn't want, like, a noisy construction site.

And now the point of that is not like, okay, I can't make mistakes.

It's not that at all.

It's like practicing off site, preparing, bringing it.

It's like the.

I was like, I can't believe there's a verse on practice.

Like, there it is.

Worship leaders, if you need it, there it is.

First kings, six and seven.

All right.

Boom.

Yeah, boom.

Yeah, yeah.

And it.

I mean, yeah, it.

Because when you can practice offstage, then you can really go anywhere.

When you're leading, too, there's more.

That's where that freedom taps into, because you know, you know, you know where you're going.

And, like, even for me, this is a big thing that I love because as a worship leader, like, my.

Like, one of my main.

My main people that I'm, like, locking with is my drummer.

Yes.

They're usually mD, too, but, like, my drummer, because I know.

And I'll do this where, like, I will tell my MD.

Like, this is what I'm feeling for the morning.

This is where I want to go.

This is the transition, all that stuff.

Yeah.

And then I trust that my drummer and my MDD is practicing that.

Taking the blocks off site, chisel, doing all things.

So when we come together, we're just going in, and there's this, like, sweet banter almost of like, okay, I know where you're going.

Because I.

We had a conversation, and I practiced off stage, and I'm practicing the presence at home and all of that.

But there's just something really powerful when you can come into a practice to not even maybe practice sometimes.

Like, I've had.

Where I've just been, like, we just worshiped for a while.

Cause we were just there and we just, like, went for it.

It.

And it was good.

And God just really, like.

And, I mean, we did practice.

Don't skip practice, but we went through the songs and things like that.

But it was, like, the main thing was just to, like, come together.

And there's that unity aspect that comes with practice, too, that, you know, I just.

Yeah, I just, like, love that.

You know, that's actually a great point.

Like, I would even encourage people to incorporate that.

Like, yeah, you know, there are different service order environments.

Yeah.

You know, some places, it's like, at 17 seconds, we hand the mic.

Yeah, okay.

You know, that's your.

Whatever.

But even in, like, a rehearsal, like, hey, we have.

We have five minutes.

Like, let's just float I'm really feeling the bridge of this song.

That's generally.

All those moments are those moments that just take off and it's like, yeah, epic and all this.

It's generally just like when we did the song and when we did verse two, it honestly felt amazing.

Yeah.

Like, let's just go back and see what happens.

We don't have to stick to the arrangement.

Yeah.

Or anything.

Let's just explore.

We're all going to explore together.

Yeah.

And it's.

You know, it allows people worshiping, because generally, God is in the room.

He's not only speaking to people on stage.

Correct.

It's a royal priesthood.

Yeah.

Like, we're all there, and it's not a stage thing of, like, okay, we're gonna watch the band play the karaoke, these songs.

Like, that's not what it is.

It's like, we are the royal priesthood.

We are all lifting our voices to him.

And so the best times is when you don't even need the band anymore.

It's like.

It's like, okay, you guys are singing.

Cool, go ahead.

Yeah.

Like, you know, take it.

And I.

Yeah.

I just think it.

You can't manufacture that moment.

It's so sweet.

It's so beautiful when it happens, but you have to get there sincerely and, like, just follow where God is.

Like, I want to lead you to where I.

Like, where I am.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, let's talk about that a little bit.

Cause I just.

To steward those moments.

And two.

Cause, right.

It's not like, well, I'm carrying the moment.

I'm, like, making it.

That's not it.

It's like, how do we steward those moments?

Or, like, finding the river of God?

I remember you telling me a while ago you were leading or you were playing drums.

Jeremy Riddle was leading.

And he talks a lot about finding the river.

Like, where's the heart of God in the set?

And when and how to identify that.

And I just, like, I think even just to help worship leaders and singers and musicians who may feel like, what do I do when you do feel that God's moving, he's speaking.

We're throwing the clock out the window.

What do we do?

And how do we steward those moments, especially for a drummer?

Yes.

I mean, really all the instruments.

But the drummer does hold a lot of weight in caring and stewarding what God's doing in the room.

Number one, be patient.

Good.

It's gonna take two times longer than you think.

And so, like, thinking, you know, it's always like, okay, for four bars, I'm gonna do this, and then the next four bars, I'm gonna do this.

And, like, just not thinking of.

Because when.

When you feel momentum starting to build.

Yeah.

The temptation is like, okay, now we're gonna arrive.

We're gonna send this thing, and it's just gonna be like, this epic, big arrival.

Yep.

Don't assume that.

Yeah, just, like, you might get to, like, five.

You know, I talk about dynamics a lot.

Like one through ten.

You know, you might start at a one.

Something happens, and, like, see how long you can go before arriving somewhere.

Like, how much can use in.

You know, and there is a such thing as going too far, and it's not always cut and dry, but that's when you're listening.

Yeah.

Spiritually, you're watching.

Yeah.

You're watching the room.

There are so many times I've been playing, and my instinct is, like, I want to do more, but what if I just waited another round?

What if I just.

You know, and there's so many levels you can build in dynamically of, like, some I like to.

Okay, I'm gonna get in the drumming weeds for a second, if that's okay.

Yes.

Okay.

I love it.

So, I think it's really important to create different dynamic levels, and just having a deeper understanding of your drum kit is crucial.

So your kick drum is a sledgehammer, that thing.

If you start busy on the kick, you have nowhere to go.

And so with any build that you are in or any, like, momentum that you feel like can happen.

The longer you wait on the kick, I promise you, it's like, when the kick comes in, it's like, oh, yeah.

If you bring it in too early, everybody feels like.

Everybody starts to feel, like, rushed.

Now we got to get somewhere.

Yeah.

And this, you know, it's not always cut and dry.

It's not always simple.

I've blown a lot of builds, you know, so I've made some, and I've blown some.

You know, it's like, I'm not done.

So it's like, it's never.

It's never easy.

It just takes that sensitivity as a team, too.

Like bass and drums.

Like, if the bass player is following that same kind of rule of, like, okay, let's.

Let's wait.

Yeah.

How long we can stay out of.

Yeah.

Because once the base hits with the gems.

Totally.

And, like, if kick and base are together, that's a drive.

And now, you know, you're just.

You're.

You want to, like, slowly let the water rise.

Right.

And then eventually, you have, you know, in the worship leader is.

Okay, here's another piece.

I guess you have some advice for a worship leader.

Please.

Like, what do I do in this?

Helpless.

Yeah.

You don't have to be able to play all the instruments.

None of this, but an understanding or at least an awareness of, like, let's do an instrumental.

Like, I'm gonna step back.

Like, we're doing this bridge.

Yeah.

I'm just gonna step back because there's, like, the guitarist is kind of just in the zone right now.

Yeah.

And so I'm just gonna let some momentum build.

I don't need to repeat this bridge.

And repeat and repeat and repeat.

And go, like, just do the bridge.

People get it.

Like, step back one time, let people sing it.

Let the instruments take it for a minute and come back in.

When you come back in, it's like, band is sensitive.

Yeah.

Okay, we're gonna send it.

Yes.

You know, like, just.

You're exploring.

Yeah.

That's all it is.

And it's not.

It's.

It's.

Yeah, it's like I said, it's not cut and dry, but it's so helpful to have.

Yeah.

That's when the whole team is, like, everybody watching.

Yeah.

What are you doing?

You moved your leg differently.

What does that mean?

Tell me now.

Yeah.

Everyone's eyes are just like, bunch of owls looking at each other.

Exactly.

And, like, you know, you want to be.

Because you're feeling like you want to do a good job.

Yeah.

You know, you want to steward the moment.

Well.

Yeah.

And so it's.

Yeah, it's not taking it too seriously, but having a great music director who is game changer in those moments, a music director who's like, hold off on the snare, like, easy on the kick.

Like, you know, stay warmer.

Keys not there yet.

No, we're not to octaves yet.

Melody, like just.

Yeah.

You know, everybody is kind of doing their instrument dynamically.

Yes.

And that's how.

That's how it's like, I guess from a technical standpoint, that's just how it works.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's like, it's a ride and everybody takes and it's not.

It feels natural and it feels intentional.

Absolutely.

Any song that's longer than six minutes, I promise it was not intentional.

They just fell into a groove and they in record was on.

Yeah, it's awesome.

I'm just.

It's.

That's not true.

I'm sure there are songs probably, for sure.

I mean, couple.

I can name a couple.

Yeah, but.

But.

And really, like, even what you're saying all I can think about, and this is something that I, like, I am always telling my team, is, like, we are all leading worship.

There's not one worship leader.

Like, I put this set together.

Sure.

But guess what?

I need you just as much to help me lead and steward the space, including sound.

This is literally from front to back, front to back.

We are 100% all worship leaders.

Everybody has a role.

So just like, what you're saying, it's like, worship leaders, you have the same temptation to, oh, I've seen that part again.

Or you just have to say something.

You have to keep saying, how about you just step back or just wait?

Like, I'm a big advocate for waiting, even to the point where you feel uncomfortable.

It's like, wait till you even feel awkward.

Not.

I mean, you know, there's some ways to identify when it's like, okay, don't be ridiculous.

Yes, but, like, to the point, like, sometimes I'll just sit there, and I'll just wait, and I'll let the keys just take it.

Drums is kind of like doing stuff, and I'll just wait in the moment that I start feeling like, okay, go.

I'll wait one more time.

Just like what you said, I'm gonna wait one more time.

And then usually that one more time means, oh, no, we're not going anywhere for a while.

Because I then have entrusted the entire band to help me lead.

And that's where that trust and that communication, like, I think, like, and I'm thinking about, as you're talking, when we used to, like, play lead worship together, and I'd be like.

In my head, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna wait.

Then I'll wait a minute, and I'll wait another minute.

And then you came in.

Like, you always come in right when you're supposed to.

It's like, right, that needed to happen.

But because I trusted you and you're also leading worship, it's not the Amber show.

It's not the worship leader show, right?

It's like, we are all together doing this.

Like, same with the keys and electric guitars and base, and literally from front to back, everyone is leading.

And I just, like, want to encourage, too.

Like, worship leaders.

Like, take the time to be okay with waiting.

Like, just take a moment to just.

Even if you don't, if you are like, well, what do I say?

Or what?

Just say, we're just gonna sit here for a minute.

God's doing something.

Just.

And I usually.

Sometimes I'll give him a time.

Just in case people are wondering.

30 seconds.

Yeah.

Right.

You know, worship leaders, we're not actually.

We don't really mean 30 seconds.

We mean a full minute.

Right.

You know, it's like we're gonna sit here and then you really feel the faith in the room.

Cause people are connected.

Cause they're disconnected from what's happening on stage and they're connected to the one that we are here for.

Yes.

And that's like the whole goal.

Yeah.

Right.

100%.

Yeah.

That's so well put.

Yeah.

Like, everybody sharing the responsibility of, like, we are here to listen and lean in and trust each other.

Yep.

And, you know, I think that's.

Honestly, that's one of the biggest things that teams can do.

What do we have to do to trust each other?

Yeah.

If we walk into the building on a Sunday morning, it's like, yeah, right.

I'm not talking to him.

Right.

What?

You know, it's like, okay, have.

Go have the conversation of, like, hey, are we good?

Yeah.

You know, like, what?

And I know that's.

That's very complex thing, but that unity piece is gonna be so felt.

Yeah.

Because the team has walked through that together.

That's gonna overflow.

Yep.

And people are gonna feel that, you know, and it's just.

Yeah, yep.

I mean, and side note, like.

Like, if there's just unity on stage, the people can know.

Can feel that, like, God's gonna move regardless.

He's gonna do his thing.

Cause that's what he does.

But.

And it's not about, like, oh, do they feel that?

It's just like, it creates this culture of, like, inconsistency, too, with, like, okay, is everyone okay on there?

And then it can be distracting.

Totally, too.

So definitely, like, you know, clear the air with people.

You know, get your heart.

It's all about the heart.

Right.

Just going back to purity, just, like, knowing why you're there and everything.

It just makes a big difference.

Unity on the team conversating, doing, you know, even, like, worship leaders talking through the set with people and, like, letting them know so they feel they're on board and, like, all the different things.

But, oh, my gosh, we could talk about that for hours.

Like, we have.

What do you want to do?

Cause I'm just so passionate about unity on stage and creating just the space for God to move in a rehearsal and on, you know, when you're leading and for people to cause.

Again, the whole point of what we do is to lead people to encounter Jesus, to encounter him and without distraction.

That's why we practice so that we're not being a distraction.

And unity so that we can really, like, go where God wants us to go.

And the Bible says unity demands a blessing.

That's where the anointing comes from.

So it's like, let's do that.

Yeah, let's aim for that.