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On this episode of the dudes and dads podcast,

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we talk with Greg Neumayer about wonder and adventure.

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You're listening to the dudes and dads podcast,

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a show dedicated to helping men be better dudes and dads by building community

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through meaningful conversation and storytelling.

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Now here are your hosts Joel Demott and Andy Lehman.

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Andrew, we are in, we're in studio again together. It's like beautiful.

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It is the friendly confines as we like to call it.

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We're so glad last time you were at a hotel in the, not even in the lobby,

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you were in, I was in a hotel room in Dallas. You were not in the room though.

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That's the thing. You were, you were not even in the room. No,

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you were like outside the birds were chirping or trying to chirp, but, oh,

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that's, that's right. Yeah. Oh no, no. You're saying yes. Last time.

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No last time we recorded. Yes. I was in Toledo. That's where it was.

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That just shows you what life has been handled. Handing me recently.

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I can't remember what city I was in, but I, when I was speaking to you. Yes. Yes.

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Well, Hey everybody, welcome to the dudes and dads podcast.

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Glad to have each and every one of you along looking forward to a great

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conversation. Yeah. Yeah. So we've had,

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we've had our friend Greg on the show before.

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I don't even remember what Greg talked about last time, but it was,

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it was meaningful.

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It was so meaningful that I forgot what it was about.

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I think it was guarding your, your inner, your, your inner life.

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Yeah. It was all about the inner life. Yes. I think it was, yeah.

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Something like that. And in true fashion we were, you know,

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talking about deep, the life. Okay. Right. It was checking the life of the mind.

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No, there was season three, episode 21 Greg Neumayer. Oh,

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had a spiffy picture at the blue background. So, okay. Okay.

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It was winter. I think it was what I remember was it was dark outside by all.

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Greg remembers is that he was depressed when he got here.

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It was dark and yeah. Yeah. Hey, Hey Joel, before we get into it tonight,

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yeah. I know that we're going to have people watching. Yes.

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So I would love to have them comment,

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but dudesanddads.com/ask is going to get you into the zoom

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room. Ask. Ask. Okay. Like you're going to ask a question.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I gotcha. No, no, no. I just,

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I wanted to make sure that I heard you correctly. I am the dude.

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So that's what you call me. Thank you. Okay. Ask slash ask.

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It's going to get you into the zoom room where you can physically be on camera

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with us and answer or ask your question.

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Is this the first time that we're allowing this level of access? We are, we are.

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So we've done it with patron listeners before, but never with a general,

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with the rest of the listeners, the other awesome people. So, so we,

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I mean, we could get a weirdo or two on there and that's possible. We could,

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but that keeps things interesting. It does. It does. But

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more, more, more to the point though. I,

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I just love the way you do it on screen. More to the more to the point. Again,

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just another avenue for people to connect, engage in the conversation. All great.

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That's wonderful. Yes. So, so there, so we,

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we do the das.com/ask. We'll get you into that,

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but ask ask, ask, ask. Greg,

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Greg, how are you, man? Welcome back. I'm good. I'm yeah, I'm very good.

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Glad to be back with you guys. And especially glad to hear of

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Joel's recent travels and we connected with you and your wife. Yeah.

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I had a great time last night too. So this is, yeah, this is a real treat. Yeah.

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So, so we went out to see a movie. Yeah. My wife and Greg and his wife,

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we went to see inside out too, which I actually think is nice. I'm going to say,

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I'm just going to say it, it's a better than the first one. Would you agree,

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Greg? I'm not there yet. I, I, I really love the first one.

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And this one was good too. I just think that they're at different, you know,

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the,

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the first one was about childhood and this one's very much about adolescents and

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they each have a great space. There's the introduction of anxiety, right?

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This is part of the, yeah. It's very interesting. Interesting.

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All I'm going to say is they did a great job. If you've not seen it, go see it.

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10-4 every youth worker and parent will deeply connect with.

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Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, yeah, they do an incredible job.

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Visualizing very, uh, uh, very deep,

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very specific kind of neuroscience, uh,

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concepts and giving you a way of accessing them and saying, Oh wow, that's that,

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that is exactly what that feels like. It's, it's great. Yeah. Yeah.

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So today though, we are, we're going to be talking about, uh,

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adventure and wonder and all of those things because Joel and I are

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actually going to be joining you soon on an adventure, a wonder,

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and we're going to go on an adventure and then I'm going to wonder why I agreed

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to go. No, no, no. I'm really wondering why right now,

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why did I sign up for this adventure? No. Uh, yeah,

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I think, you know, Andy, you and I,

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we have conversations all the time about trips that we go,

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things that we do, things we do with our kids, things, you know, like, um,

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experiences,

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and we talk a lot about the formational power of experiences and the

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intentionality behind that. And obviously we've shared, you know, uh,

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I'm on this mission to do a, a significant special trip, one on one, you know,

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one on one trip with each one of my kids after they turned 13. Uh,

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so there's this trip coming up.

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Josiah is coming along with us on this trip as he just turned 13 this past

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spring. And, um, I, uh, we're,

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we're really, really excited about it. Um, and yeah,

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I know that there are, uh,

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and this is part of the adventure piece. There's stuff about this, like,

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like Greg is Greg is, uh, first of all, he's just going to share with us. I mean,

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I just want him to like lay out what it is that he does and what he's been doing

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and why he does it, why these, these sort of trips and all of this. Yeah.

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But I think the, and then tying in the piece of,

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there's an X factor to all of this stuff that like, you can explain it,

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like you can tell us about the trip and we can talk about,

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we can talk about the logistics and all this sort of stuff.

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We can talk about being a crunchwrap Supreme for a bear, but whatever.

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Yeah. Ooh. Yes. Uh,

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but there's this other part that is really this adventure.

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I think this adventure wonder piece that is, uh,

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kind of like you just gotta do it. Right. So there is, yeah. Dive in with us.

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Well, yeah. You're describing the ideal that, okay, so there's,

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there's so much preparation you can,

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you can have and you can feel very prepared and still not feel ready. Yeah.

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And that I think everybody has that. I mean, I, this will be, I mean,

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I've been, Oh man,

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I don't even know how many nights I've spent out in Northwest Wyoming,

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where we're going and it's not as many as others, but it's still like,

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I'm preparing right now. And even until the day I get there,

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I won't feel totally ready telling you just, you dive, you dive in and you say,

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okay, I'm doing this. Um, and the whole idea with this, uh, the,

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the man up retreats and that's what I kind of just called it eventually at some

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point, uh, was,

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so I worked in the Tetons on a missions kind of a missions internship during

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college that was in 2009 had one of the greatest summers of my life,

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but didn't get to experience the park very much. Uh,

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I worked overnight shift security.

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So, uh,

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my schedule was way crazy and thrown off from the rest of the team that I was

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there with. Um, uh, when I had the chance to, well,

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we needed some in-between space,

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kind of a an intermission time period where after, uh,

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my wife and I had just gotten married,

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we returned to the Tetons and worked there then together. Yes.

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And, uh,

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had a lot more of the park experience that time and just leaned in and was like,

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wow, this is really,

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I can't believe how much I missed out on the first time we were here and even

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spending that another summer and into the fall. I mean,

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we closed the place out, left, you know,

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in late October didn't feel like I had never felt like I got enough.

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Yeah. Um, then I had a good friend who, uh,

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we were turning 30 and said, you know,

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what we need to do is we need to do a road trip and we need to do an adventure.

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We've got to do some of this thing. And I said,

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do you want to go back to the Tetons with me? And he was like,

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if you plan the thing, I'll go.

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Was that the first time for him to go or what?

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He was on that first, uh, that first year internship as well in 2009.

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And, uh, but I had the same experience. It was just like went a hike, you know,

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one or two hikes and otherwise was just feeling dog tired and completely like,

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yeah, yeah. It was, it's a,

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it's a hard thing to live and work and enjoy all at the same. Sure.

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So, uh, we did that and planned out, you know,

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the back country discovered the whole permit system, uh,

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just dove in completely cold, had no, yeah, nobody.

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I mean, we just, okay, I'm going to read a bunch of blogs. I'm gonna,

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we're just going to show up. We're gonna hike in, we're gonna stay the night.

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We're going to do the things.

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And it was amazing and awesome and suddenly like felt like it awakened something

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in me that was just like this, uh, you needed to do this.

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Like you need to do this years ago. Yeah. And man, what,

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this is what I've been missing this. Wow. There's something about this that,

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and it's not this like, Oh, it's primal toxic masculinity or whatever. It's just like,

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no, it was just like the stars were brighter. There was more of them. Yes.

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And I was witnessing and seeing animals that I had,

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you know, just, I mean, when a moose just walks by 10 feet,

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15 feet away and doesn't care that you're there. Right. It was like,

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I know I'm the biggest, baddest thing in this one right now. Right.

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You guys just enjoy your, your little snack right there.

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And I'm going to go down here. I mean, you just sit there and you just go like,

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I am so small. Yeah. Yeah.

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And I think that's a good experience.

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I think that's one of the things that kind of the, uh, I mean,

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it may be a masculine thing, a manly thing,

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or it may just be a human thing in general,

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but sometimes we just need to be reminded of our smallness. Yeah.

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And that's part of the trip then that was like, I should do this again. Yeah.

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So I started it right then was I started planning the next year and invited more

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people. And, uh, that was 2019.

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So since 2019, I've been doing this every year, uh, open invitation.

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Um, first few years were very closed invitations.

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Like had to know somebody who knew somebody the last two years now or three

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years maybe have been, okay, I'm going to broadcast this, bring this out,

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make this available. If this is, you know,

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if you're in for kind of an adventurous retreat space,

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cause it's not about an achievement. It's not about, Oh,

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we're going to do the crest. We're going to do the, uh,

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we're going to summit something now that we build some of that.

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I build some of that in, but it's so much more about, okay.

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Taking our cues from, uh,

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kind of the biblical theme of wilderness being, uh, I mean,

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you can have the chaos factor of wilderness,

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but you can also have the rest factor of wilderness. Sure. Um, and so, uh,

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what I kind of describe it as to say,

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and the purpose of the man up retreat is to, uh, re inspire,

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re inspire men for adventurous lives of faith and deep relationships. And so,

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um, you know, so as you saw on the fire or whatever, we,

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we enjoy the wild space yet tame restless hearts.

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We revel in the isolated expanse, but dig into deep conversation. Uh,

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we embrace opportunity for challenging work yet lean into the gift of rest. Uh,

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these days are meant to be healing,

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encouraging and freeing in all good ways. And it's going to be awesome.

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So I really, I'm so thrilled to have you guys coming along this year.

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It's going to be, it's going to be awesome. I know I'm really super excited.

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I was excited when you just said, or when Clinton frame came and said, Hey,

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we want to do this. And then once we had that first like meeting where you're

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like, Hey, here's what you need to know. Like I went home and I was like,

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this is going to be awesome. Right? Like I was like, I'm, I'm ready for this.

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In fact, I'm wanting, I want to, I mean, I'm not been yet,

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but I want to go back next time.

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The last time, uh, and Greg, I don't think I've said this, uh,

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the last time I've,

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I've been to the Yellowstone Reed, Yellowstone region, but I was, I was, yeah,

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I was going into sixth grade and I remember seeing the Tetons off,

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like in the far distance and my parents being like, this is like, just saying,

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like, this is one of these amazing mountain rate or whatever. And that is,

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that is the only exposure I've had. So it has been living in like a,

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like you don't have to say like, I have this dark spot.

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I need to go. This is just this like postcard picture I have of it and that's,

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and that's it. And I think, Oh, we're going to get you all inside.

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That's the beautiful part of it. And I, I think there is something,

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um, you know, uh, earlier I was,

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I was just thinking about like, what's a funny way that I could ask Greg,

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you know, about this trip. Like, what can I, and it's just like, you know,

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it's like, man, what, what, what is the deal, uh, with,

220
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with people, uh, getting into the mountains? I mean, like what,

221
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like what is so special, uh, about, uh,

222
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can't they just be left alone? Can't they just,

223
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can't the mountains just be off there in the distance and you just accept that,

224
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uh, that they're there and you go, Oh, those that's nice.

225
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Take a photo and be done. No, no. And why not?

226
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Why not though? Seriously? I don't know. I think, and I, and I, I think it could,

227
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I mean, there could be some personality things to it because some people feel

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the same way about like the ocean, you know, and it's like, Oh,

229
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I just want to be on the beach and just look at the vast expanse of the ocean.

230
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And that's what makes them feel small and connected and stuff.

231
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And I don't really love water. Sure. That's just not the thing for me.

232
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But, but, uh, I see a mountain range, you know, like that. I just got,

233
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I want to explore that. Like, I want to know like that right there. I can see that,

234
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,480
that line right there that, that I could tell that, you know,

235
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it's a canyon of some kind. I want to know what's in there. Like how,

236
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how do we get into that? And, and now, I mean, I've been going back. So, I mean,

237
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my first summer was 15 years ago, you know, two summers later,

238
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the whole summer again, and now I've been going back every year for, you know,

239
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,360
a week or two weeks, uh, since 2018. Yeah.

240
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And I don't feel tired of it. Yeah. Um, uh,

241
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I try to build in a different itinerary, a different route for each group.

242
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Some, something that keeps me feeling a little, uh, um, like I'm,

243
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I'm doing something new. Like it's not.

244
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,120
Well, that's amazing too, that you're saying you've been there for 15 years,

245
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,560
right? It's the same place. Like, you know, there are parks that I like, you know,

246
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I've been to different parks, I've in different places, but I think that

247
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like that one in particular is just so vast and there's so much that you can go

248
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and see and do. And yeah.

249
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And it feels like, so I don't have a lot of exposure to many other national

250
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,960
parks, but I have heard and know from experience with,

251
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with Grand Teton that it's just very accessible. Yeah. I mean,

252
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,480
it's a drop fault range, so it's just, it's very dramatic. It's boom. There it is.

253
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,200
You can get right close to it on the lakes, you know, the glacier fed lakes and

254
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,200
these things, and you're right on the trails immediately.

255
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,720
You don't have to drive an hour and a half back in like a Zion or arches or

256
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:08,600
something. You're like, Oh,

257
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,120
now we're going to drive an hour and a half to get to this one trail.

258
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And then we're going to drive an hour and a half back out or Yellowstone,

259
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,520
which is kind of like a, you know, this figure eight. And it's a,

260
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,800
it's essentially, it's a drive through museum, natural history,

261
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,680
kind of exhibit. Now the Tetons are very, very different,

262
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,560
which is what makes it so awesome for this kind of approach of the retreat and

263
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,560
the wilderness and adventure and wonder. And I think that's really the,

264
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,040
the thing. So what, when, when people come on the retreat, so like you guys,

265
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,840
and I hope that this is kind of just the kind of the anticipation that you're

266
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feeling is this, you have this inner question in, in us.

267
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I think all of us do when we look at something and we asked,

268
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,640
do I have what it takes to do that?

269
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,840
So like you both know that part of this particular trip with your, with the,

270
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,360
with the Clinton frame will include,

271
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literally we're going to start on one side of the mountain range.

272
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,600
We're going to hike up a canyon pressed out at about 10,300 feet or so,

273
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,120
10,500 feet, maybe depends on what the,

274
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,040
if the trail particular trail is open there.

275
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,480
Depends if it's Joel or me, cause he's taller than I am.

276
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And then we're going to hike down on the other side of the mountain range.

277
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,480
And so literally you'll look at a mountain range on a topographical map or on,

278
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,560
on Google maps or whatever. You can be like, I,

279
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,080
I walked my own two feet walked me up and over that. That's awesome. And you,

280
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,640
yeah, you instantly are just go like, I can do that. Oh, if I could do,

281
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,720
yeah, let's do that. Like I want to have done that. Yeah.

282
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,960
And just for context, gentlemen, as we sit here this evening, uh,

283
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,560
we're currently at 927 feet.

284
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,760
We're on the third level of this.

285
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,200
And that's just because we're in an upstairs studio

286
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:57,360
in Indiana. So, so it's, it's no, uh, it's no minor.

287
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,400
Um, like I know, I know for this, like this coming month, um,

288
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,880
I am trying to get out, by the way, I was going to send you,

289
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,440
I didn't send you the photo. We did, we were over at Warren dunes.

290
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,240
We did the big dude, the big dude and climb.

291
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,160
How did that go for you? How did you feel about that? So here's what,

292
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,440
oh, here's what we got up. Now mind you, it was a hot day.

293
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,040
And so the other thing to, uh,

294
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,880
to overcome was I wore my sandals up and still my feet were about ready to like,

295
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,600
uh, burn off. It was pretty, it was still pretty warm, but, um,

296
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,360
I did have that feeling. I'm like, once we got to the top, I'm like, okay,

297
00:17:28,360 --> 00:17:32,080
I am. That was, that was tiring. Um,

298
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,320
and I'm breathing good and hard. Uh, but we did that.

299
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:41,680
And, and this is, and on top of that, dude, it's like,

300
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:47,680
it is climbing that dude. And that's a seven. I think it's a 700.

301
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,520
I think it's like 700 feet, something like that. I have no idea.

302
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,120
I think it's what it is. I really did. I remember,

303
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:57,040
I remember looking it up or whatever, but, um,

304
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,400
yeah, so it's really, ultimately it's a few,

305
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,320
it's a few hundred foot climb is what it is, what it is. And, but I just,

306
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,520
I remember going and thinking to myself, I'm like, I'm like in my brain,

307
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:09,640
I'm like, okay, well,

308
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,400
I'm just going to go ahead and say that climbing like,

309
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,240
like ladder climbing through sand is just going to be a little harder,

310
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,520
but like, I'm not at elevation because we're, we're doing, I mean, we're,

311
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:23,920
we started what? 7,000 feet.

312
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,960
We started at 7,000 feet. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Jackson Lake's about 7,000 feet.

313
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:29,120
So the next month I am,

314
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:33,840
what I'm dedicated to is intentional cardiovascular exercise. And,

315
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,800
um, and I, that was a piece that I wanted to talk about,

316
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,920
like in anticipation for the adventure, the preparation,

317
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:46,000
like the preparation leading and that you can't fully

318
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,040
prepare. Right. Preparing for altitude.

319
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:54,000
And so it's kind of been like, so I've just been like, well,

320
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:59,040
I'm just going to do my best to be able to hike as well as I can.

321
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,920
And then, and we've been out, I mean, again, we've, I've,

322
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,320
I just remember, and this is probably my worst, worst fear.

323
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,560
I remember the first time I went out to Denver to visit,

324
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,320
to visit friends and family. Okay. And Greg,

325
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:13,880
I don't know if I've ever told you this story. Uh,

326
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,800
we had a friend who was, who was, had moved out to Boulder,

327
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,820
year prior that was from this area.

328
00:19:20,820 --> 00:19:25,480
Krista, if you're listening, I just want you to know, I love you dearly,

329
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:26,840
but this was hard for me.

330
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,480
So she had moved out a year, a year prior and she's, she was going to be like,

331
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:34,960
we were outside there just for my wife had a,

332
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,040
had a company trip she was out there for.

333
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,760
And so I had an opportunity to be out there for like a long weekend with them.

334
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,880
And so like, Hey, we're going to cram in a bunch of like the quintessential Denver,

335
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,920
range experiences. I get off. This is my first time.

336
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,280
I get off the airplane. We,

337
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,600
she picks us up at the airport and we go to Pike's peak and,

338
00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,640
and like did the cog, did the car train thing. I was okay.

339
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:05,360
I felt okay to the top. Now what also ticks me off Pike's peak? It's a 14,000.

340
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:07,400
That's a 14,000 footer. Uh,

341
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,760
it was completely fogged over.

342
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,480
I couldn't see a dog on the thing when you get to the top. So it was like,

343
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:14,960
whoop dee doo. Um,

344
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,440
but it was my first time with altitude sickness that I had felt like you're up

345
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,160
there and you're like, my head feels swimming swimming and not in a good,

346
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,160
like not in a good way. Um, and then, and then got like,

347
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:28,440
by the time I got back into the tranx,

348
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,200
you're only up there for like 20 minutes and they come back down down the train.

349
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:36,000
And I just remember like resting my head on the cold window

350
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,040
of the train. And once it got back down to like 8,000,

351
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,840
I started feeling a little better, but man, but man, oh man,

352
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,760
that was my first experience. And what I will have said, what I've said is,

353
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,160
I never want to feel that way again ever, ever, ever in my life.

354
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,040
That is just kind of like the worst because it literally,

355
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,640
it's an interesting thing of it's your surroundings. It's the actual atmosphere,

356
00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,760
the actual place that you are in, in that moment. Not just like, it's like,

357
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,400
the thing that's making you not do well is all around. It's all around you.

358
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:06,640
You are trapped.

359
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,760
Like there's not like a room you can go into that magically makes you feel

360
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,880
better. And, and I just remember this, like, uh,

361
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,600
I think this, I think this feeling of a lack of like how

362
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,560
when you were out of your normal surroundings, this part of adventure,

363
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,400
when you're out of your normal surroundings and there's this,

364
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,040
there's this thing that you cannot control and this thing that's kind of

365
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,960
overcoming you. And you're just like, you do, there's something within you that

366
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:30,520
goes,

367
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,040
I want to make sure I'm better at this next time where it

368
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:39,160
doesn't get me the same way. And what I will say, I call it what you will,

369
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:43,280
every time we've been out ever since I I've, I've had less negative experience,

370
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,280
you know, being out there and, you know,

371
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:50,080
my brother lived in Denver for a long time going to the range, uh, did, uh,

372
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:55,400
Mark men, uh, retreat at 9,500 feet, uh, in the range a few years ago,

373
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,080
acclimated, make sure I acclimated in Denver for two days before I went,

374
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,440
before I went up. Yeah. A lot of ibuprofen water. I was fine.

375
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,320
There is no training for, there's no preparation.

376
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,120
There's no training for altitude. There's just not,

377
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:13,160
your body is used to a certain oxygen saturation at this level.

378
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,000
You, it takes, and everybody's different. I mean,

379
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,880
literally every body is different in its acclimation time. I have found that,

380
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,680
you know, about 48 hours is, uh, will, will be the telltale,

381
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,680
you know, Mark of whether or not, you know, if somebody is, uh, can,

382
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,240
if they're continuing to feel lightheaded, uh, you know,

383
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,160
nauseous or nauseated, um,

384
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,400
any kind of persistent headache and they've been hydrating really,

385
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,520
really well because hydration is so crucial if they've been hydrating really,

386
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,160
really well. And we've only been at 7,000 feet or maybe only gone up, you know,

387
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,640
to a, one of our hikes will go up, you know, eight 82 or 8,400 or so,

388
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:55,440
um, that it might not be for them to go over the 10 Mark.

389
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,560
They may be, they might be one of those bodies that it's like, ah,

390
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,820
this was going to take you a week. But, um, I haven't had that happen yet.

391
00:23:02,820 --> 00:23:04,640
Usually it's been right around two days.

392
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,360
And that's why you know the guys who are coming in, you guys coming in,

393
00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:11,080
we're going to, we're going to stick around in the Valley, um,

394
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,240
for those couple of days. And some of you are driving in,

395
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,640
which is way better too. Cause you kind of just, yeah,

396
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,440
you're just continuously gradually gaining that oxygen or gaining that

397
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,200
acclimation. Now you drop in from fly in and then go up to

398
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,040
14,000 feet within hours. Yeah. That's a recipe for,

399
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,000
I look back and then I was like, what was, I was like, well,

400
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,360
what was she thinking? But inevitably, I don't know.

401
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:39,040
There was another conversation. Yeah. Where do we go do this stuff?

402
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,280
And it's like, Oh my gosh. So yeah. And I think, uh,

403
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:48,600
but the, the whole idea, and I think on any adventure,

404
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:54,320
any adventure thing that we go on the, I mean, we love,

405
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,640
we love the control. We love, we love the preparation. We spend so much time.

406
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,680
We've had these conversations as parents all the time, right.

407
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,840
Around to what,

408
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,560
like to what degree do we eliminate the unknown or the X factors from the lives

409
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,160
of ourselves, our children, our families,

410
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:15,720
is there an, is there a, is there a value,

411
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,080
is there a value of pursuing the unknown in those things?

412
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,080
I Greg, I just, I wonder from your perspective, like,

413
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,600
and maybe this is the fun part where he gets to tell us, like,

414
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,680
what's the worst thing that's ever happened to him.

415
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,880
What's the unexpected things that have happened to you. I mean,

416
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,520
I'm sure there have been things. And, and what were those,

417
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,360
you can share whatever you want to share, but like,

418
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:41,000
what were those things like or what did they maybe produce in you?

419
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,760
Cause I think there's value in that too. Yeah. I, I really,

420
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,480
I think the preparation side of things,

421
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,120
when we ask this question of do I have what it takes or is it, you know,

422
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:52,880
could I do that? Is that something I could do? I mean,

423
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,760
those are those questions that keep us, you know,

424
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,480
we're going to default one way or the other. We're going to say, well,

425
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,120
I need to lean into as much planning and control as I could possibly have until

426
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:06,920
I feel as prepared as I could be. And I minimize that sense of risk.

427
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,760
Or you have the, well, whatever it is, it will be, and let's just go for it.

428
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,640
And and, and I think we, you know,

429
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,560
the balance is somewhere in the middle of that with,

430
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,000
and that's where I think wonder comes in, like where we're,

431
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:23,000
we're open to wonder. We're open to saying, I, I don't have it all figured out.

432
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,800
There's going to be something of this that is going to surprise me.

433
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,480
And I'm actually expecting that. You know, when we think about,

434
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,720
okay, we're going to do, you know, the, the up and over will be about 20 miles,

435
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,040
you know, it'll be about a 20 mile hike up and over and come down Teton Canyon

436
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,760
and such. Your body is meant to do that. Like your,

437
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,600
your body's meant to put one foot in front of the other into, I mean,

438
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,360
your body's meant to do that. We're going to give it the energy.

439
00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:52,240
We're going to give it the rest and, and some of that will be disc, you know,

440
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,680
uncomfortable. I think the real, you know,

441
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,120
the preparation there is actually more in mental side than it is.

442
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:02,360
Even when you said 20 miles, it's like, you know, for me,

443
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:05,480
I've hiked not nearly that many miles before.

444
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:10,520
And when you say 20 miles, it just sounds like a lot, even though in reality,

445
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,480
like you said, the 20 most beautiful miles of your life.

446
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,880
I'm looking forward to it, you know, a lot.

447
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,640
And that was one of the things when you said, okay,

448
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,480
if you want to do this overnight thing is where we go up in camp and then go

449
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,680
down or whatever. I was like, yes, like, even though it's a lot,

450
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,720
I want to do it because I want to experience that. And I want to,

451
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,640
I know I can do it even though it sounds like a big, a big task right now,

452
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,800
me being in Indiana and I, for crying out loud the other week,

453
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,240
I just walked around the block from, from my work. It's like, it's just over a mile.

454
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:44,680
And it was, it was kind of hot out,

455
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,560
but I was recording some audio for an audio journal and my wife listened to it

456
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,360
later and she said, I could barely listen to that. Cause you're panting so bad.

457
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:52,760
I'm like, I know, I know I got to, I got to,

458
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:54,480
but it's like I was trying to talk.

459
00:26:54,480 --> 00:27:01,000
I know it's so well, yeah, that's going to boost the confidence for sure. No,

460
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,160
but I mean, but in all reality, like I knew,

461
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,560
like there was a difference because I was talking and trying to walk and,

462
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,520
and it was hot out and all of this stuff.

463
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,560
So I know that there's a difference there. So, yeah. And it'll, I mean, so I,

464
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,920
I have a, I have a bit of a, you know, we,

465
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,960
there's pretty well known hiking formulas out there or whatever, okay.

466
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,440
If you're under load, like we're going to carry backpacks and whatnot,

467
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,120
and it'll just be one night's worth. So really you're talking like, okay,

468
00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:24,680
we're going to carry sleeping systems, shelter, and then, you know,

469
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,520
enough food for the two meals or whatever that we're going to miss or take in the

470
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,400
back country. So around that,

471
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,560
we're going to be hiking around two to two and a quarter miles an hour.

472
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,680
That means, okay, so 10 miles up and over into the,

473
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:45,000
into the wilderness, into Alaska basin, the wilderness. So that's,

474
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,080
you're expecting five hours there, but for every thousand feet of altitude,

475
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,720
you gain expected to add an hour. So for that,

476
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,080
you kind of just go like, okay, this is going to be an eight to nine hour hike.

477
00:27:55,080 --> 00:28:00,000
And if you mentally tell yourself it's going to take that long, it's not a race.

478
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,440
It's not something to, I need to, it's not something to, to like to complete.

479
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,040
It's something to enjoy. Yeah.

480
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,200
And that's really where I think the mental side of it is like, oh, I'm,

481
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:14,400
I'm going to be in a intentionally physically uncomfortable,

482
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,760
but I'm going to be so much more spiritually refreshed.

483
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,360
And that's where the trade-off is, is like, okay,

484
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:24,640
I'm going to put my body through something far more uncomfortable than usual,

485
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,640
but my soul is going to just be giving me these deep, long sighs of,

486
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,880
looking for this. This is exactly what I was waiting for. Right. And I think for,

487
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,520
for me, this trip is going to be great. You know,

488
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,280
I know that Joel's going to be going on it, but quite honestly, for me,

489
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,200
like Joel and I are good friends and I'm hoping to spend some time alone and

490
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,080
with other people. So like for me, I've mentally prepared myself saying,

491
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,000
I'm not going to talk to Joel as much as I normally do just because I want to get

492
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,040
time with God and with other people too. So yeah,

493
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,760
I'm really looking forward, forward to the trip for, for those reasons. Yeah.

494
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,840
Yeah. I love the, what you see come out of people, um, with their different,

495
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,400
different personalities, you know,

496
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,680
different personalities when you get into this space. Cause that,

497
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,720
that's what just my observation over the last five years.

498
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,520
And I think now I've got guys who have come from California and Washington and

499
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,240
Iowa and Indiana and Michigan and Pennsylvania, uh,

500
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,760
and Nebraska. Uh, and I'm sure that I'm missing somebody.

501
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,480
When they get into the same space, no matter where they came from,

502
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:26,680
they get into that space,

503
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,480
something clicks and there's this camaraderie that instantly it forms.

504
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,880
It just like, Oh, we're in the mountains together guys.

505
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:40,040
Like this is, this is the hardcore cool stuff. And, uh,

506
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,320
we're going to sleep outside and we're gonna, you know,

507
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,880
and we're going to cook over the fire and we're gonna, Oh man. And the,

508
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,600
and at any given time, a grizzly bear could just show up and decide,

509
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,360
they want to be part of the adventure too. Crunchwrap supreme.

510
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:56,960
So like, I, I just think it's, uh, I mean, as far as like this,

511
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,400
whether you want to call it the, I think it's an existential thing. I mean,

512
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,440
there's just the adventure side of it. It's like, and, and for somebody listening,

513
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,000
it may not be about, okay,

514
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,200
you're connecting with the wilderness and the mountains.

515
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,600
It's really not about that adventure does not have to be the, I mean,

516
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,720
that's just a context. Yeah. The, the longing for adventure has much more to do

517
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:20,320
with this personally connecting with something outside of ourselves and having

518
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,240
something that feels out of reach and asking, do I have what it takes?

519
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,640
Could I do that? And then, and then do it. Yeah. Doing it. Well, it's,

520
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,480
it's the same time thing is, you know,

521
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,080
you mentioned people along the beach or people that are, you know,

522
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,160
swimming around Mackinac Island and you know, things like that,

523
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,760
just where it's like, it's, it's a big adventure. It's,

524
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,600
it's more than you think that you can do, but that's when you, I think see,

525
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,040
I mean, if we're talking Christian wise,

526
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,640
that's where you see that God helping you and showing up and like, yeah,

527
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,920
those are the times that you realize you can do more than you think you can do.

528
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,040
Yeah. And I think that if we can actually, if we can,

529
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,360
if we can embrace that, like that,

530
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,000
what that part of us that feels a little lost, like the,

531
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,880
the being on an adventure in our life, you know, uh,

532
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,400
then that can even be something we bring into, like, the real question is,

533
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,320
do you feel that, do you have to go somewhere else to grasp that?

534
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,040
And is that what then feels suddenly like, Oh, I'm finally alive.

535
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,880
Or is there something about that that connects with your actual daily life?

536
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:17,840
You know what I mean? You can,

537
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,400
you can have that in physics and engineering and mechanics and coding and, uh,

538
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,120
mean teaching, like all of those things can be adventure. Um,

539
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,880
if we have that perspective or that mental outlook. Right. And I think,

540
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:36,200
I think it helps though, you know, when you get away from your daily grind,

541
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,800
you know, whether or not, you know, we, the three of us have have jobs, right.

542
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,960
And so we have responsibilities for every day. And then we have,

543
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,720
we all have us have kids that are going to and from and all different places.

544
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,440
And so this,

545
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:53,000
something like this allows us to step away for a short amount of time and go,

546
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,880
okay, I'm gonna completely separate myself from the normal, you know,

547
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,200
you've said there's no, no cell phone signal up there really.

548
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,000
And they try to keep increasing the coverage and I keep going, why,

549
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,800
don't do that. Don't do that. And so, and so that allows you to get away.

550
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,040
And, but at the same time, what you said too,

551
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,400
you could be here as long as you plan that out. So you're saying, okay,

552
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:18,960
for the day I'm going to go to, I mean,

553
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,920
there's hundreds of things within 50 to a hundred miles of here

554
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,840
that we could go, maybe not near near as grand and adventurous,

555
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,080
but things that we can do that would allow us to get away for the day or the

556
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:32,920
afternoon too.

557
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,120
And that's where the concept of retreat comes in. I'm just going like, okay,

558
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,760
this is not retreat because you're surrendering. This is retreat to regroup.

559
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,160
And it's more like a regrouping than a retreat. I mean, it's, it's like, okay,

560
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,840
how do I take a step back, rally and breathe? I mean,

561
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:49,840
and then

562
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:55,080
estimate and somehow take a, take a look at what's coming ahead.

563
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,800
And I think that that's always been just one of the more,

564
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,240
that was something that I can almost count on every single year being out there

565
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,760
is that while I'm there, mentally speaking,

566
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,200
I disengage so much from the normal regular day to day.

567
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,680
And while I'm there engaging this other different kind of, you know,

568
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,000
task or problem or adventure or, or, you know, uh, journey,

569
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,560
somehow the things that I was more worried about and concerned about from the

570
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,400
normal things back here, they clarify, you know,

571
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,840
they end up clarifying in that space. I feel a little more rallied,

572
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,480
or at least they end up feeling like these things that feel insurmountable about

573
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,040
things back home or back in, in the, uh, on planet earth, you know,

574
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:38,520
cause you have that reentry experience.

575
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,720
It feels like you've been in a different place. Um, they feel less,

576
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,520
they feel more manageable. The problems feel smaller. Uh,

577
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,680
then you just have a different perspective.

578
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,800
You get up a little higher and you just like, Oh,

579
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,920
I can see a little bigger picture now. Um, so that's, that's,

580
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,760
I think that's part of the wonder component of it too. And what,

581
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,400
what it means to embrace the wilderness side of it.

582
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,600
I think that's a biblical theme. I mean, yeah. Speaking very, very Christianly,

583
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,920
like, uh, Luke says, Jesus often withdrew to lonely places to pray.

584
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,120
And that's a way of saying like, Oh,

585
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,640
Jesus often withdrew to lonely places to connect with his,

586
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,120
to connect with his mother and, uh,

587
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,240
grasp the gravity of the next step or,

588
00:34:19,240 --> 00:34:22,400
or regroup from the work and the output of the,

589
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,760
of what had just been accomplished.

590
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,160
It, it seems to me that, uh,

591
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,640
there is a real power in

592
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,600
being, uh,

593
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:40,920
that letting these foreign places alarm,

594
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,760
alarm us as to our

595
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,320
constant noise constant. Um,

596
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:54,160
it had someone share about a trip that they just took and did a boundary waters

597
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,600
and the individuals said that they, uh, I, they had, they had to use it.

598
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,600
I think, what did he say? He said, he said at night that he had to use either.

599
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,880
It was some sort of like earplugs or something because it was so quiet.

600
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:13,720
Like the, the, the level of the level of the lack, yeah,

601
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:19,800
the lack of noise or whatever it is was, you know, alarming. And it's like,

602
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,720
it's like, we should be alarmed by that. Like,

603
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,080
you know, like that's a good, like, that's a good check in. Right. Like, Oh,

604
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,760
Oh wow. And you know, up there where he is, it is,

605
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,880
it is illegal to have more than nine people per square mile. So, um,

606
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,720
yeah, like it's real. And they, and they enforce the Rangers up there will enforce,

607
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:43,120
like literally if there's more, they,

608
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,120
they enforce that as a noise ordinance violation. Really?

609
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,320
So there's just too many people, too many people that right now,

610
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,760
and that's everything from there. The trees. Yeah. Like the canoe paddle noise.

611
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,760
I don't know. But like that's, I think that that's the,

612
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,680
gosh, it is just, it is really, really good. And I, I'm really,

613
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:08,680
I'm just really intrigued by just the idea of having certain places or

614
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,680
experiences alarm us as to, you know,

615
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,480
these things that are missing in our life and these, these,

616
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,680
these components that are, I mean,

617
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,320
namely silence and solitude and solitude is a, is a, is a big one.

618
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,080
Um, I, and I know, I know from personal experience and I'm,

619
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,520
I'm due for, I'm due for another, probably a small,

620
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,520
like to work up to my experience, but like,

621
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,280
Your time is running short. You gotta get that in quick. Yeah. Yeah.

622
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,880
We gotta, we're running out of times to, uh, the,

623
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,240
I, I,

624
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:52,320
I know folks who say they desire these sort of things and try to run headlong

625
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:57,240
into them. And you begin to realize like, uh,

626
00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:00,720
even on the retreating side, it's like, yeah, that's actually, it's,

627
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:04,480
it's a little bit of a muscle that you have to strengthen.

628
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,480
If you just go in head, head first and be like, Hey,

629
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,120
I'm just going to remove myself from all, all things. And like,

630
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,400
I'll see you in two weeks or whatever they call it, the anechoic chamber.

631
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:22,680
Jump into one of those and it just drives you nuts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

632
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,960
I think you can kind of have that experience. Yeah. Yeah. And people are,

633
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,800
you know, we're just like, no, Hey, try a day. Try two,

634
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,480
then try three. Um, it's essentially like, like fasting, you know,

635
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,960
when you first start fasting, you don't want to go for a whole, you know,

636
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,840
30 days fast. That's a ridiculous thing to do.

637
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:43,940
Even two weeks for your very first time is ridiculous. Right.

638
00:37:43,940 --> 00:37:47,040
Three days, three days fasting. You're going to feel like, why did I,

639
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,640
this is like, you'll be angry.

640
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:55,280
So you start that out by doing a couple hours or a day or half a day,

641
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,120
and then you, you extend that. And so the same thing,

642
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,320
I think you're worth retreat. And I appreciate the fact,

643
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,360
I think one of the things that I really am looking forward to is,

644
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,960
is the fact that you are leading us, like you've been here however many times,

645
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,680
right. You know this and you know what to expect. And so like for me,

646
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,720
that takes out the need for me to, I don't want to say prepare,

647
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:14,560
cause that's not the right word,

648
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:19,000
but like for me to go to start worrying about things and figuring out, well,

649
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,560
okay, how am I going to do this? Cause I know that you and Adam, Adam, right.

650
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:28,160
Yeah. Yeah. Are gonna, are gonna be able to help guide us in those things as,

651
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,680
and so like for me, that's, yeah, that's something.

652
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,960
The value of a guide in all of this there there's a,

653
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,560
that seems to be another good solid biblical theme for sure. Right.

654
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,760
But so can you tell us, so you,

655
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,800
we've talked a little bit about we're going to be doing hiking, right.

656
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,680
And we're going to be doing some,

657
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,240
some camping, like what else? Like w tell me,

658
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:53,520
essentially the quick pitch that you were telling us that night when we were

659
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,600
sitting in the coffee shop and we were all going, yes, this is awesome.

660
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,560
Let's do it. And some of us are going, I don't know that I can do this,

661
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,560
but I'm still gonna go like, what's, what's your pitch there. So really my,

662
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,760
my hope, my goal is it's putting, you know, it's, it's having a,

663
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,000
having a finger on the pulse of what Joel's describing.

664
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,680
They were saying like, we are too busy.

665
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:14,440
We are too future oriented and, and to

666
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:20,280
in our, in our day to day lives. I mean, you could,

667
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,280
you could go any different number of directions. You could have the Tyler Durden,

668
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,840
you know, feel from the, you know, from Fight Club. I mean,

669
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:32,240
like there's something about us that feels like we are alive, but,

670
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:36,920
but not living. And there's a, oh man,

671
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,080
I just heard this not, not just heard it.

672
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,560
There's a beautiful song that's John Foreman sings. He says,

673
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,440
don't let your spirit die before your body does. And it's like this,

674
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,200
wow. It feels very much like, okay, that on my arm,

675
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,880
what is it that we need to have that to keep that from happening? And for me,

676
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,440
it's, I feel like over the last few years, I've really put just kind of like,

677
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,240
the only way I know how to describe it is wonder is to say,

678
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:04,760
what we need is wonder. We can have adventure and lots of people can,

679
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,880
can look into adventure. And then if you only have adventure,

680
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,960
what you can end up with is like an adrenaline junkie experience of, ah,

681
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,200
I just want to have the next trip.

682
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,680
I just want to go and experience something I never had before.

683
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,000
Go somewhere I hadn't seen. And you just have this like next, next, next, next,

684
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,720
next. And so where wonder comes in is to say,

685
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:27,200
oh, what I need is to scale back, step back, slow down and feel small.

686
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,960
And I need to realize, oh, there's a bigger story happening around me.

687
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,840
And suddenly something I'm going to, I'm playing around with like a,

688
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,960
a kind of a principle I'm going to call the chaos ratio is like,

689
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:45,040
so in scripture, really biblically speaking, the wilderness represented chaos.

690
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,240
It represented like, there is no, like there's no,

691
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:51,440
there's nothing governing this space. It is wild.

692
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,960
You go into the chaos and suddenly the chaos that exists within ourselves,

693
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,320
well, there, if there's more out there,

694
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,160
then maybe I can actually suddenly get a handle on what's happening in me.

695
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:04,920
And the ratio is flipped.

696
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,000
There's more chaos in me than it feels like in the world most of the time,

697
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,360
because it's just such a governed space.

698
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,680
Like everything is like rule of law and someone's telling you where to be,

699
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,720
what to do and has expectations.

700
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:20,320
And so there's more chaos inside than outside. You get into this wilderness and

701
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:25,240
it's a, it's a bonafide designated wilderness. And you go,

702
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:29,680
oh, there's more chaos out there than in the inside right now.

703
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,160
Finally, the ratio flipped. And if I pay attention to this,

704
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:39,280
I slow down and it feels smaller

705
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,520
and suddenly there's this

706
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:48,880
rest happens, you know, where, where,

707
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,840
where rest happens because you have to go,

708
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:55,560
I can't possibly control all of this. And I, I have seen,

709
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,640
observed over, you know, these five, six years now that,

710
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,520
the more control I'm used to, the less comfortable I am in the wilderness.

711
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:09,520
And that has been a really profound, like thing to witness is that the people who

712
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:14,000
will have the hardest time with this with, with really,

713
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,400
I'm going to say leaning into wonder is the,

714
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,080
is we're the same people who are like used to calling the shots,

715
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,640
used to putting the I dotting the I's crossing the T's connecting the details

716
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,440
and, and putting the box together that we live in.

717
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,880
And suddenly we are not doing that anymore. And it's hard.

718
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,880
I remember, I remember a few years ago, again, doing a Northern,

719
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,400
doing a quadico trip up into Canada, you know, we're,

720
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,800
we're out in the wilderness there and we brought along a new,

721
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,440
my dad brought along a friend of his who though my father had done everything he

722
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,320
could to try to prepare him for this trip. The guy did not come prepared.

723
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,800
And my dad, my, who, my dad would call this guy close friend.

724
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,440
Was relationally sideways with him a good portion.

725
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,320
And I really analyzed,

726
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,280
I've really analyzed this over the years and several years back ago,

727
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,200
this happened, I really analyzed it. And it was part of it was like,

728
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:10,960
my dad was connected to this idea of like,

729
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,920
I told you what you needed to be able to do and you haven't done that.

730
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:21,240
And I am massively uncomfortable, like, like, you know, with,

731
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:24,520
with that, with that piece. And, and the part of me goes now, it's like, yeah,

732
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,360
it's like, right. A production engineer,

733
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,280
dad was experiencing somebody who was, yeah.

734
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,760
Who didn't get it. Right. Yeah.

735
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,600
And that's where you're kind of describing the difference between instructions

736
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:42,080
and guidance. And I'll tell you like the first, yeah,

737
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,480
the first time that I went out and so in 2018, just planning this,

738
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,160
like this personal retreat and I, and my, my,

739
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,680
one of my greatest friends ever Ray was with me and he was the one willing to

740
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,960
like, okay, we're going to jump in and let's do this. I trust you.

741
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:59,920
And man it was hard to not pack the day

742
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:04,680
and operate by an agenda of what needed to get done. And he was really good.

743
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,000
I was just of he was, God was teaching him a lot about Sabbath at the time.

744
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,160
It was just like, what if we, what if we just took at least one day?

745
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,800
Like what if we took a day and we didn't have a,

746
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,880
we weren't sure what was going to happen. Yeah. And there was this like,

747
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,960
prepare for the unexpected kind of thing or,

748
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,040
or be ready to be surprised kind of principle. And I,

749
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,320
that was really refreshing to me and ended up being one of the most important

750
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,440
takeaways from that, from that trip. Now,

751
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,880
I had just the greatest experience ever with him and I'm so happy for those core

752
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,400
memories. But he, there was, there was a principle that had to be learned,

753
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,800
especially for the masculine heart, our, our own, you know,

754
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:43,680
brotherhood in that experience of,

755
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,520
of leaning into wonder and realizing, oh,

756
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:51,720
there's something important about the world will move and work without my input.

757
00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:55,280
No. Yeah. And, and I'm really small. Yeah.

758
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,800
And so sometimes you just need to, like,

759
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,160
I'll tell you another experience or another, you know,

760
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,640
way that that principle was kind of reaffirmed for me was one,

761
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:11,080
one year I was out there and so this was 2020,

762
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,080
so I couldn't take a whole bunch of people. The parks were all,

763
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,040
they weren't sure what was happening one day to the next, but one,

764
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,840
one guy was like, I'm still willing to go. Like, I'm, let's, let's make it happen.

765
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,600
I was really looking forward to this. If it's just you and me, that's okay.

766
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,480
Let's do it. And he was one day, he was like,

767
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:31,480
I am okay with you just deciding what to do any given

768
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,840
day. I trust you in this space. Let's just do it.

769
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,440
But I want you to do something for me, for you. And I was like, well, what is,

770
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,800
what does that mean? And he's like, I just, I want you to say,

771
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,480
I don't want you to worry about what I need. I want you to realize and lean into,

772
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,600
is there something here that you've never done that would be good for you?

773
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,240
And don't worry about if I have the capacity or the strength or if I'm going to

774
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:57,520
be up for it, like, I want that for you. Oh. And suddenly it was like,

775
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,120
okay, that's another new principle. Like that's another new thing of like,

776
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,680
of saying, what do I want for somebody else?

777
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,400
So for you guys coming on this group,

778
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:12,080
I want you to be able to have an experience there in this space of, of,

779
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,960
of having the adventure of accomplishing the adventure,

780
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,240
but also of being reintroduced to the importance of wonder,

781
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:21,360
because you can take that back home. Yeah. Like,

782
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,920
and when you have that as a value and you say, oh,

783
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,520
I can live with wonder and I can look at wonder and I can't,

784
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,760
and I don't have to just take it all at face value. Like,

785
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,920
I'll just tell you this today, this afternoon,

786
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,480
I wasn't sure what was going to happen. I've been as a, as a dude and a dad,

787
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:44,680
I've been really struggling recently trying to figure out what does it mean for

788
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:49,600
me as me to connect with my kids at

789
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,360
nine seven tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah.

790
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,720
Five and three. Yeah.

791
00:46:55,720 --> 00:46:59,160
And know that I can't connect with them as my wife does.

792
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,480
And I can't connect with them as their uncle or as their grandparent or as,

793
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,200
you know, I have to connect with them as myself.

794
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:09,840
And what is it that I could do together? And we somehow ended up, I wanted them,

795
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,800
you know, it was great. Like we watched it,

796
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,960
we watched Peter Pan for the afternoons, like just kind of a down afternoon,

797
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,640
down Sunday thing. And then it was, okay, let's everybody go outside.

798
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:20,160
Beautiful day finally.

799
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,240
So we went outside and they were swinging and they were on the back.

800
00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:26,160
The first thing we did after we bought the house was build a tree house,

801
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,600
tree fort kind of thing and give, give reason to be outside and play.

802
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,480
And my three year old was just thrilled. She was so happy. Daddy,

803
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:34,400
come and look at me, daddy,

804
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,200
come and look at me how high I can swing and she's swinging all by herself.

805
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,320
And then suddenly we wandered off a little bit and I, and, uh,

806
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,680
we have a wild patch right behind the, the swing set area.

807
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,760
And in the summertime you'll find berries in there.

808
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,160
And so suddenly we were just all picking wild black raspberries and wild

809
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:54,000
blackberries.

810
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,840
And we were connecting in the kind of way that I always feel like I should be

811
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:03,280
planning for and trying to make happen. It just suddenly it was just happening.

812
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,120
And it was like, I'm picking the blackberry and I'm handing it to her.

813
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,720
And she's just like, these are, I was like, Sophie,

814
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:12,680
you have had some blackberries today. And she just looked at me, she goes,

815
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,480
I love blackberries.

816
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:20,160
And like, we're just, they did not like, they didn't wander away. Yep.

817
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:21,360
We were doing this together.

818
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,680
And then I was clearing some weeds so that we could get to them a little easier.

819
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,240
And then all of a sudden that's what they're doing.

820
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:29,000
They had sticks and they're like trying to stamp them down and try to,

821
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,480
and I was like, man, that was way easier than I always,

822
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:38,720
like think that it's always like trying to work myself up mentally to

823
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:42,600
manufacture this connection. And they were just ready for it.

824
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,800
If I was open to it, you know, and that was important.

825
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,680
So what I'm hoping for is something very similar to that is what happens

826
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,800
for you all on these, on this trip, on these retreats is that,

827
00:48:54,800 --> 00:49:00,440
you taste that wonder and you go, Oh, my heavenly father, my, my older brother,

828
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:01,920
my, my eternally older brother,

829
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,520
Jesus is waiting to show something to me to reveal something with me,

830
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,280
to lead me into wonder.

831
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:13,720
Introduce me to the grandness of his, of his space of this beautiful area.

832
00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:18,520
Remind me how small I am, but how much he cares about me. And to say,

833
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,600
I'm so glad that we can do this together. Like I'm just, that's,

834
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,400
that's what it's all about for me. So I'm so excited. And I'm just, Greg,

835
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:27,760
I'll just say just real quick,

836
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:33,040
I'm so excited to experience this with you guys and, and my son. Yes.

837
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,840
That, that to me,

838
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,880
is just such a gift. I, I, and we haven't even been,

839
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:45,760
we're not even there yet. And I already, I already feel that sense of just like,

840
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:47,040
Oh man, that's, that's amazing.

841
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,400
So, so as we were talking, I looked up the word wonder,

842
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:55,200
a feeling of surprise mingled with Adam Ray admiration caused by something

843
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,600
beautiful, unexpected, unfamiliar.

844
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,000
Oh, that's so good. That's good.

845
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,080
Way to go. And he is like, man, that's the definition right there.

846
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,120
Of wonder. Oh, that's perfect. The unexpected. I mean,

847
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:15,160
that just power in the unexpected guys in our spiritual lives and our,

848
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:20,280
in our walks, how much unexp, like I, and, and Greg,

849
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,160
I feel like this is maybe,

850
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,360
I feel like you've preached a few sermons on this for sure.

851
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:31,840
The like, we don't, we don't appreciate, excuse me,

852
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,320
we don't approach our relationship with Jesus this way. I, I,

853
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,240
I'm on a, I'm on a dangerous, like I'm on a dangerous,

854
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:42,560
like internal rant right now with my, with just,

855
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:48,000
just religious life in general and my own and my own faith walk and all of this

856
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,840
where I just am being confronted. I don't know if I turned, I don't know,

857
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,440
I may be having a midlife crisis too. I don't know about all this,

858
00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,280
but like just being confronted with like,

859
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,360
everything is packaged. Everything is,

860
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,760
there is so much plug and play, you know, Greg, you, you and I like,

861
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,560
like years,

862
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,720
years of upper level education of which I am in turn,

863
00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:18,760
I am super grateful for at the same time. Like just,

864
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:23,800
there's, there was so much of it that's planned. There's steps you do year one,

865
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:28,600
year two, you get the, and then, you know, and before you know it, you go,

866
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,320
like, none of this was like,

867
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,800
like, Ooh, Ooh, what's going to happen now? Oh, wow. You know,

868
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,520
like none of it was that, I don't feel like much of it was that way.

869
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:40,760
It was kind of like, no, this is what you do. Get it done.

870
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:45,000
Move on to the next thing. You know, as, as it is, you know, obviously,

871
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,520
you know, for all of us in very, in various fears,

872
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:54,760
I just, I, I am just concerned.

873
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,840
I'm more concerned. I'm just, I'm super concerned about,

874
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,080
about that reality for so many and recognize,

875
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:05,240
I think the toll that it has taken on me,

876
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:08,160
I'm sure my friends, brothers and sisters, people that I've, that I've,

877
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:12,160
I've counseled and cared for. And

878
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,480
I mean, Greg, I don't know, guys, do we just,

879
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:19,360
do we need to go and just mess some things up? Is that what needs to happen?

880
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:24,760
Do you just need to, I don't know, sell all you have, go get an RV.

881
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,560
I don't know what, like some people do that, that sort of stuff.

882
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,120
And we watched them on Instagram and go, Oh, like, Oh,

883
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,800
wouldn't that be great. But, but really we have real lives to live here.

884
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,960
I just, I'm, I'm just as in this conversation,

885
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:42,720
I'm just reminded of these realities and something that just has rubbed me

886
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:46,920
wrong or realization I've woken up to is kind of this like,

887
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,480
yeah. How much wonder is there really in our life? How much,

888
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,240
how much unexpected is there really? How much do we, we just go, Oh,

889
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:59,200
didn't see that coming. Oh, it just, it just,

890
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,120
it really is. Whereas,

891
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:07,040
I think in various parts of history and other places,

892
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:11,800
I have to believe that people lived in a daily reality of didn't see that,

893
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:16,720
didn't see that coming. Oh my gosh, here we are. Oh, what next? Well,

894
00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:21,200
Oh, you know, all, all of that sort of thing. And, and man,

895
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,000
and man that there is, I don't know, I haven't fleshed all that out,

896
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:25,280
but there's some weight to that. I think.

897
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:26,840
No, there definitely is. Cause I mean,

898
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,280
what you're describing there is the difference between, okay. So I mean, yeah,

899
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:34,200
if you're living under in, in a sense of oppression and poverty and a sense of,

900
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:38,880
well, what, what cataclysmic catastrophic thing is,

901
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,280
is around the corner is next week is next is the next day. And I mean,

902
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,280
you're talking about a kind of fearful way of living where,

903
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,640
where wonder the sense of the unexpected is not a good thing.

904
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:53,760
We're talking about wonder in a sense of the unexpected and the surprising is

905
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:58,880
something to anticipate and it will be good. But for many people, and I mean,

906
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:03,440
the, this is where the question of faith comes in and the question of joy comes

907
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:08,400
in. If we're joy bounded to, to life, like life is an adventure to live.

908
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,640
We have a sense of peace. We know where peace comes from.

909
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:15,360
We know where belonging is. And so adventure is not

910
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:20,880
adventure is not something that we have to muster to accomplish in,

911
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,080
in order of keeping something bad from happening.

912
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,360
That's war, right?

913
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:30,600
No adventure is something that we can, can, can desire,

914
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:35,760
because there is wonder to, to, to encounter.

915
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,480
But the other side of that is we live. I mean, if we,

916
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,360
if you don't have that joy or that peace,

917
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,720
if you don't have that hope and that stability and that belonging,

918
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:46,160
then wonder could easily probably be replaced by, you know, like,

919
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:51,280
I don't know if you would call it paranoia or terror or, uh, dread really.

920
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,200
I mean, and that's where, that's where, I mean, inside out too,

921
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,400
we're going to come all the way back around to this anxiety.

922
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:01,040
Like the idea of fear has control of your imagination and what I'm,

923
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:05,320
the only thing I can, okay. I see coming in the future is pain or, or,

924
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:10,000
or, uh, difficulty. And I've been there. I've, I've totally,

925
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:14,160
totally been there. Um, they have been there recently. I mean,

926
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,880
so this isn't like a constant state of, of anticipation.

927
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:23,800
I think really what it is is how do we reintroduce wonder into our daily

928
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:28,360
lives? And that will come about, that does have to be an endeavor of faith,

929
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,320
that we look at and say, okay, well, uh,

930
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:37,320
the good shepherd does lead his sheep into abundant life, life upon life. Oh,

931
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:42,320
my, my heavenly father does give good gifts to those who ask him, uh, even,

932
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:46,240
even I, as a, as an earthly father who, uh, don't get everything right,

933
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,880
can muster that amount of love. Um, oh, there is this, uh,

934
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,640
he's working all things for good of those who love him and are called according

935
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:58,720
to his purposes. And okay. So, well, what, in what way will this heartache,

936
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:02,160
this difficulty get worked out for good? I don't know. It hurts right now though.

937
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,880
I'll tell you that. Um, so yeah, I think that's where part of the,

938
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:10,400
the guiding of life does have to have to be part of,

939
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,360
we are not, okay. So let me just,

940
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:18,360
I'll kind of wrap that up thought up with we end up with the,

941
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,240
with the least desire for wonder,

942
00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:24,160
maybe when we have an are used to the most amount of control,

943
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:29,200
but we were not designed to be autonomous independent beings. Yeah. We're,

944
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,400
we're not autonomous. We're not independent.

945
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,360
We're actually designed for dependence and that dependence is,

946
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:40,040
is beneficial. It's, it's to our good. Um, as,

947
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:45,400
as creative and exciting and adventurous as any of us are, we're not,

948
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,400
we're not a drop in the bucket to God's creativity, to the Lord's, uh,

949
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:54,000
to the Lord's desire for adventure and working restoration and redemption.

950
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:58,920
I mean, we're now on our restoration and redemption story. Um, but the more we,

951
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:04,240
the more we dismiss or re or resist that dependence and crave and claim that

952
00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:09,840
autonomy and independence, I think the more we push wonder out of our life,

953
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:12,840
because it doesn't fit. It doesn't fit now.

954
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:18,400
Yeah. Well, and gosh, that's,

955
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:22,720
that's so true. And I, I think, you know, for those listening, I,

956
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,960
I would encourage you as I, as I will, um,

957
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,960
I'm going to process that out of that idea. I'm going to, um,

958
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:34,280
apply these ideas to our daily life. Now, as we experienced them,

959
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:39,840
take a look, use this as a, use the, the wonder filter,

960
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:44,080
um, by the way, it's the title of the book that we will write about this.

961
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:47,280
We, uh, the wonder filter, uh,

962
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:53,720
the mountains and midlife crises, uh, sometimes, no. Um,

963
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,600
but applying the wonder filter to things and, and,

964
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:01,600
and taking a look at how you're experiencing life daily, um,

965
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:08,120
is wonder a component of it? If not, why is it these controlling,

966
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:12,080
these controlling factors, these, these postures that we've determined that are,

967
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:16,960
that are stealing it from us? Um, I mean,

968
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:21,440
I think you, you, all of us here at this table would agree, like, you know,

969
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:25,120
if God is who he says he is, and we believe that he is like,

970
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:29,400
there's a whole lot more life out there. Like there is, there is,

971
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,600
and it is a veil and by the way, it's not, it's not secret. It's not,

972
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:36,080
it's not hidden. Like, um, the way,

973
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:41,240
the way like a mean person hides something from you to keep it from you. Uh, it is,

974
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:46,440
it is hidden because we are like not aware. Like we are,

975
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,560
we are just like, we are, we are in these places where we were too easily.

976
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,720
Satisfied. Yes. That was the whole mud pie thing. And CS Lewis, this whole like,

977
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:56,120
Oh, we could be, you know,

978
00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:00,040
a vacation at sea and we're just like playing these on the shore,

979
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:04,560
isn't this great? That's like, Oh, well, okay. If that's what you're into, but,

980
00:59:04,580 --> 00:59:09,240
but there is, there is more and just so easily sad. Yes. Easily satisfied,

981
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,840
easily satiated. Um, and, uh, with,

982
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,840
with things that do not, with things that do not last and getting,

983
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:21,480
you know, we're talking here, it's like, we're getting out into God's,

984
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,920
God's country, literally, um,

985
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,600
to, to shake us up a little bit, to put us in a different,

986
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:33,640
to put us in a different setting, but not, but, but not just for that alone.

987
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,220
Like it is, it is a, it is both a,

988
00:59:36,220 --> 00:59:38,900
it's a metaphor wrapped in a, an enigma.

989
00:59:38,900 --> 00:59:43,500
There's, there is this, there's this other, this,

990
00:59:43,500 --> 00:59:47,260
there's other worldliness that goes in beyond the immediate experiences as,

991
00:59:47,260 --> 00:59:50,900
as God uses his creation to do to point us to things that are,

992
00:59:50,900 --> 00:59:52,540
are beyond the beyondness.

993
00:59:52,540 --> 00:59:58,140
I think this has been a super helpful episode and I really appreciate you coming

994
00:59:58,140 --> 01:00:00,540
out and talking to us about this. And I think Joel,

995
01:00:00,540 --> 01:00:02,620
we need to definitely have a followup episode to this.

996
01:00:03,620 --> 01:00:06,220
And I'm, I want to right now, invite anybody who's gone,

997
01:00:06,220 --> 01:00:10,360
going on this trip with us to be on, on the call with us. So we can have,

998
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,640
we can talk about that. Cause I think that that's going to be,

999
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:18,420
it can be helpful because I think we'll be able to talk about our experiences and

1000
01:00:18,420 --> 01:00:21,480
just kind of as best as we can put that into words.

1001
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,120
And I think that that's going to be tough as to put this experience into words.

1002
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,360
And then, I mean, you've been there however many times, I think Greg,

1003
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:32,360
and you've, it seems like there's still that awe and wonder in your eyes.

1004
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:34,960
Every time you come back, it doesn't get old.

1005
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,840
And so like I think I'm going to have a tough time putting things in words,

1006
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:38,680
but we'll try.

1007
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:39,880
Yeah. And, and the,

1008
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:45,800
what I almost guarantee is, as is if, if you're prepared, you're,

1009
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,560
if your heart, your mind, your body, body, great, but,

1010
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:52,520
but mind and heart prepared enough, what's going to happen is you,

1011
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:54,440
you have this experience and then you immediately go,

1012
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:56,900
how do I share this with somebody else? And like, yeah,

1013
01:00:56,900 --> 01:00:59,920
the next year you're taking a family vacation back out there and you want to

1014
01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:04,200
bring that in. And, and I don't want that to be about the context.

1015
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,400
Cause the context is always shifting. It's always changing. It's not about,

1016
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:11,360
there's nothing magical about the Tetons about Northwest Wyoming. I mean,

1017
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,640
I just, it happens to be the place that captured my imagination, right.

1018
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,200
And introduced me to this wonder. And so it makes it easy,

1019
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,720
but that sense of how do I actually, yeah.

1020
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:24,560
How do I embrace this value in my Monday,

1021
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:29,400
every other Monday of the year? Like, uh, how do I embrace this value with my,

1022
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,800
with my child, uh, as they are climbing their own mountains,

1023
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,360
as they are preparing for their own wilderness, uh,

1024
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,240
how do I help them take stock of and, uh,

1025
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:42,840
account for their resources and be satisfied with something called enough

1026
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:44,480
instead of like, Oh, I have to,

1027
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,720
how do I make sure that I have more and more and more than what I, you know,

1028
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:49,520
that kind of thing. I think,

1029
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,260
I think that's what it ends up being all about.

1030
01:01:52,260 --> 01:01:55,560
And that's what I'm hoping for you guys and the other, Oh, let's see,

1031
01:01:55,560 --> 01:02:00,040
how do we have 12, 14, there's 16 total, I think.

1032
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:04,760
So there's two, you two. So the other 13 plus the three of us. So yeah.

1033
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:05,800
Yeah, absolutely.

1034
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:10,360
Going to be a great trip. We're looking forward to it. Um, Greg, thank you.

1035
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,200
We are just always so thrilled to have you here.

1036
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:16,200
Thanks for hanging out with us and talking with us. Um,

1037
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:20,680
hope the conversation has been helpful to others as inspired some potential awe

1038
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,360
and wonder and sense of adventure. Uh, maybe the need,

1039
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:29,400
the need to not just plan another vacation plan, plan something.

1040
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:33,440
I was trying to think of like an awesome and wonderful plan.

1041
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:36,640
Yeah. Something awesome and wonderful plan.

1042
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:42,080
Do something like this, whatever, whatever level you can, but, uh,

1043
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:46,080
Andy's hitting buttons. There we go.

1044
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:52,400
As always, you guys, you can send us, you can send us an email over at tunes,

1045
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,520
and dad's podcast@gmail.com. You can always, always,

1046
01:02:56,520 --> 01:03:00,280
always join us during our live sessions, which happens Sunday evenings,

1047
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,320
every other, roughly every other Sunday evening. And, uh,

1048
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:06,440
we would love to have you on our zoom call where you can listen and join and

1049
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,560
potentially be a guest on the show and ask questions to people.

1050
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:13,560
So join the community, uh, guys get on the socials, like it, follow it,

1051
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:16,120
do all this stuff. It's always helpful to get on that community.

1052
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:18,120
A lot of really great things happen over there.

1053
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:21,880
Would love for you to be part of those things. Uh, thanks for listening.

1054
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:26,400
Thanks for hanging out. You can call our voicemail to 574-213-8702.

1055
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:30,320
Always great guys. We look forward to seeing you next time. And until then,

1056
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:31,960
we wish you grace and peace.

1057
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:36,960
[Inaudible].

1058
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:39,540
(upbeat music)

1059
01:03:39,540 --> 01:03:40,940
(cymbals crash)