E01 - We are more than just builders

Hamish: [00:00:00] hello everyone, welcome to the Mindful Builder podcast. I'm Matt like always, I'm joined with my co host Hamish from Sanctum Homes. How you going mate?

Matthew: Good, Matty. How are you, buddy? nice to

Hamish: I am doing very well today. Had some concrete pour yesterday so I'm very, very excited.

Matthew: in the hole. have seen that particular project. It looks like a fucking nightmare.

Hamish: My anxiety today is like so much less than it was yesterday or the day before. So it's nice to just be going at a nice little pace at the moment. but today we're here to have a chat about ourselves. I know we both love to sort of explain what we do and sort of showcase what we do.

But I think for most people, they might know our businesses, but they don't know us. And whilst we sort of, , showcase all the highlights and sometimes the lowlights on our social media or through various platforms. I think it's important that people actually know who we are as people. We're not just builders.

we're both husbands. Hamish has kids. I don't, but we just want people to understand where we come from, , that we are okay people that. Yes, you might hate us at times a bit. , we're just very, very honest people. So, we're going to take you back to the start. So Hamish, what was life like for you before you started to get a job?

Did you know you wanted to be a builder? Did you know what you wanted to do at the time?

Matthew: Not a clue. In fact, being a carpenter or even getting into the [00:02:00] construction industry was. Not even a thought in my mind until I was about 22 or 23. It's interesting. I went to a private school and, during school, it was always, you know, your pathway is university and then a job. That was what you did.

, so I went and did a bachelor of business and marketing and tourism and completed that, but I didn't feel like it was where I should be or needed to be. I mean, prior to that, I was working at Kmart and I worked my way up to being a duty manager there, and then did a number of years in hospitality and customer service based retail, jobs both in Australia and overseas traveling.

, but what I did get from all that experience was, I think, a unique ability to. be able to talk to people, but also critically analyze things as well from my university, degree. And it wasn't actually until I stepped onto a construction site as a laborer during my last year at university. And then when I spent quite a bit of time as a laborer, when I was in Northern America, I realized that this is where I need to be.

I actually had an epiphany where I was like, I need to be a carpenter. I love this. And it makes sense to me. Yeah, and that's where I started my, carpentry journey. Now, I believe that you're quite similar, Matt, me a little bit about how you got into the

trade.

Hamish: Mate, it's almost an identical story. I'm just probably, what, 10 years younger than you. I also went to a private school. I did the whole uni thing. I sort of wanted to be in the medical field when I first finished school and quickly realized I definitely wasn't smart enough to do that.

So I, enrolled to do a degree in science at majoring in nutrition because I liked food at the time. I fucking hated it. , but I did finish it and, it's something that I sort of look back as probably something that's helped me going forward to sort of knowing that you can finish something that you started.

But I also sort of, I was a checkout chick. I hated doing that for seven years, [00:04:00] but I now look back and it's probably helping with my customer relationships and dealing with clients. And then. I was finishing this uni course, I was like, what am I going to do, and I've always enjoyed sort of architecture building, and I said, you know what, I'm going to go be a carpenter.

Dad's an electrician by trade. My brother's a plumber. I thought, hey, we can maybe make something work here. And I found a builder to work with. They're both awesome. And I just sort of work my way as a carpenter. Look, I'm a shit carpenter. I'll honestly tell people that all the time, but for me, I knew I wanted to be somewhere.

I didn't know where I wanted to be in our industry. And I just thought like, rather than going back to school and doing a four year degree again and sort of studying and I just thought, you know, let's go earn some money. Let's go actually do something here and be a bit more hands on. And dad had always said like, you need to be able to understand how to deal with people on the tools and trades and communicate with them.

I thought that was just a better option at the time. And I look back now as one of the best bits of advice I've been given. And now just sort of evolved from there. So I never sort of knew where I wanted to be. But I knew I wanted to be somewhere in this field as well. But what made you make the decision to become a builder?

Like, why did you decide to end up being a builder?

Matthew: I think when I decided to become a carpenter, now full disclosure, never actually did my certificates right. had about a year and a half's worth of laboring behind me before I came home from being overseas for a number of years.

And then that's when I made the decision to, you know, pursue it full time. I started an apprenticeship, I think for about three weeks, and then realized that I thought I was a little bit further on than just say a first year and I thought, you know what? I got this. And I kind of backed myself bought all my tools and.

It's probably a good indication of how I've been all my life, , if, you know, I can just, I can see something, I'll go for it and I'll make it happen, regardless of the barriers that are in my way. And I saw the same thing as becoming a builder. I thought, all right, now I've got this carpentry thing sort of dialed in and that was after three or four years of, working for numerous builders and.

Friends who were in the trade and learning a whole range of different construction ways and a number of different projects, that being a builder [00:06:00] was, was the next logical step. I started my diploma and realized two years into that, because I was doing it at night school, that it was taking two.

Long and it was going to take too long to get my diploma. So I did a intensive two or three week full time certificate for building and construction management. I then think I worked another couple of years after that and then went for my building license and failed. then after that went into a partnership which I'm not going to say fail, but made me realize where my values lined.

from there, it just seemed like the next logical step. What about, What about you,

Matt?

Hamish: I realized probably about when I was 30 , that I probably wasn't going to cut it working on the tools. So I also did a diploma at night. I was on it three nights a week, knew it was going to take two years. And it was the old school diploma where you don't get fed the answers with proper, sort of degree at the time where these, these days it's a bit of sort of spit out government funding tick.

You sort of now got it. Now, I'd actually snapped my arm playing footy in half, and I sort of had the opportunity to work with my bosses at the time in the office, sort of estimating and doing their back end stuff and coming from a uni degree, I knew how to navigate computers pretty well, I was probably a little bit more academic in a sense of that sort of side of things compared to sort of your standard trainee who typically, just better with their hands and I knew computers. So I sort of had the ability to start learning that and I just realized that I was way better at that side of things and then it just sort of snowballed from there and I thought, you know, I need to get my license, if I'm ever to do anything.

with this, needs to be official. And I, and I thought, look, , I'm working towards it. So I went and got my license. I completely immersed myself in there and I knew how to study, so I actually studied my ass off. I knew every standard back to front at the time. I knew what I needed to know, and I, I sort, I've got my license, and then it was like this.

Oh, now what I was able to build these big projects. Let's be honest, I had no idea what I was doing at the time. Like, I was just building. It was a little bit of the fake it till you make it. I remember the first job I had was a bit of a, it was a difficult slab, even if I looked at it now , and I [00:08:00] just had to make it up as I went, and I did.

and that sort of just snowballed from there. I just sort of started a little bit on the tools with a, with a good mate of mine who's also a builder now because we both worked together as our apprentices, during our apprenticeships, and then I just realized that I need to get off the tools I need to make this a company and I need to do, and I need to sort of start marketing myself that way.

And I knew I wanted to be off the tools and be in the back end and then it just, yeah, it started to progress in there. And I just sort of had a few really good opportunities to do some work with my family, And then I was just like, yup, this is what I want to do.

I love this. but it was that, quest for more, I wanted more. I always would like to do more. but for you, like, where did, where did Sanctum Home start? How did

Matthew: So Sanctum Homes for me started, guess after I.

split up with my business partner. it was an amicable split. So we both agreed , that we do, that we're going to go our separate ways. , and I started studying for my builder's license and I think fortunately, it was around the same time as me getting shoulder surgery as well.

So I could really commit to, putting the time into to really focusing on at this time and actually had the experience in running, helping run a construction company for a couple of years. So, got my license second time around. I actually started working for another builder for a little bit after that, for about 8 months.

I guess like a site lead or a site supervisor. And then, yeah, Sanctum Homes, the actual name was born when we were driving home from Canberra one day when me and my wife were kind of spitballing some ideas of, you know, what we thought was a good name to try and, encompass all the things that we valued.

And we're talking about home as a sanctuary and sanctuary is like a connection to nature. And, you know, we didn't want to call it Sanctuary because it was also the same name as a magazine that we both liked, Sanctuary Magazine. , and then Sanctum Homes came from that. , Sanctum, Inner Sanctum, your home is your sanctum.

you know, you can even see in, the coloring of our logo, we've always kind [00:10:00] of had this. Connection with nature, with the coloring, um, I know it's a little bit brainwashing in a way, having it green, but, the little, motif kind of looks like birds sort of flying off the roof of a house, and it's actually a Chinese character, , kind of broken up, There is meaning to the mosaic, which I'll come back to you with, but it's the mostly kind of broken up and it looks like there's birds flying off a rooftop.

But yeah, that's where sanctum home started. What I mean, what about you? I mean, I know you would have spent a long time on coming up with your name. Tell us a little bit more about

Carlin Construction.

Hamish: so I got my last name through constructions at the end. It was like, there we go. But I kind of play with all these names. I looked at like, oh, sustainable, whatever, sustainable. Trying to put those words into it, goes back, I had no idea, like, I thought, hey, that's where our industry is going.

I wasn't sustainable whatsoever at the time, so I opted not to do it and I was always scared about using my last name in my name, because I sort of wanted to keep it a little bit secret rather than thought, you know what, a little bit more personal, let's just run with it. And then it just sort of started, I remember sitting down with a mate who's studying, law and business or something at the time, and he sort of set up my, business name through ASIC and all those other things.

And then it just changed into a company. Like I just sort of a sudden had my first apprentice. it's just evolved. Like didn't know that I wanted to hire stuff. I was a bit scared of hiring staff that you'd hear all these stories and.

taught me to be a little bit more protective and hire really good people and put really good people around me. And I think that goes back to me being a very average carpenter that I went and got really good carpenters and put them around me. I put the best people around that I could possibly get at the time and they're all still with me.

So just became a journey of like, all right, let's do this. Let's grab this. Let's get another job. You pick another job and it's just purely learning from mistakes. But. I think the question is like, from when we got started, like, specifically with your, with Sancton Homes, to where your business is now, like, how has it changed from day one to where we are today?

I

Matthew: and I've kind of used this little analogy before that I was like a [00:12:00] rudderless ship for a while and not really, having much direction, um, of where I was going. I knew that I wanted to be a sustainable builder. , and I was kind of calling myself a green builder. I went and did the.

HIA green smart professional course, which is a one day course. And you've got to wear that badge for forever and a day now, which sorry, HIA, but that was fucking rubbish. really that was a big motivation from why we sort of started sustainable bills alliance too, because there really wasn't anything out there that was remotely sustainable about anything that MBA, MBPA or HIA was.

Putting together,

but, has it changed? We have direction. Now we have really clear vision for the business. You know, a little tagline is we build beautiful, high performing, energy efficient homes. And , we kind of look to that tagline when we're looking at projects to see whether or not it fulfills meeting , that criteria.

And for us, it's quite simple when we're taking on projects we only want to work with good people, whereas before we, any, anyone that, you know, would pay us money we'd be building their homes. Whereas now we're, we're a lot more considerate With who we want to take on and who we want to work with to make sure that their values align.

I think , from when we started to where we are now, we just have a clearer vision, much clearer vision. We know exactly what we want to do, exactly who we want to work with, and you know, the type of projects we want to take on. So that's the biggest things that's changed. What about you, Matt? How's your business changed , from those early days of, doing some renovations, being a shit carpenter to where you are now?

Hamish: Mate, I reckon we could just change businesses and be the same story. I was always on that hunt for more and yeah, I just would take on any job that I could at the time you build it, you knock it up and off you go. And it kind of be cool if I had the ability to build for my first ever clients again, I'd love to see the difference in how I would actually deal with them and work with them and the processes that would be different.

But for me, it was a few years of I tried that little bit of developing that was quite [00:14:00] successful, but I realized that it was also highly stressful from a sort of cash flow side of things. And then I did the passive house course and I know a number of people sort of, they've been through this themselves.

And again, it's not a passive house. Podcast, but I was like, is a number of things going wrong here. Like, why are we building this way? And it was all the data that it could validate and provide some evidence as why we needed to be better. And what we needed to do was look at other examples around the world and the answers were there.

And it's just this big aha moment. I was like, , I just need to be building better. I needed to man more, , everything else I do in my life, I do it properly. And I felt maybe I wasn't doing this properly and I felt this was the way to, build properly. And then I just went full cold turkey on anything else.

I actually pulled out on two or three jobs that were meant to be built. , because I was like, you know, I don't stand for that anymore. I'm going to put a line in the sand and sort of go at this a hundred percent. And then it just evolved. I somehow randomly ended up getting my first passive house and then it was a second and third.

And it was like, well, this isn't actually that hard. Yeah, I know a lot of people struggle to get there first, but it just sort of happened and then it's the process. It's all the mistakes that I've, I've made thousands and thousands mistakes to get to where I am today.

Like that's how I'm, I have better processes. That's how I deal with clients better. That's how I deal with my staff in a better way, like it's all just mistakes in the past. And I think those mistakes have gotten me to where I am today. And I probably look back in five years and say, Hey, like this, I've made a million more mistakes and this is why I'm here where I am now.

Which probably leads me to the question, where do you think you'll be in five years?

Matthew: look, I think in five years time, we've got some pretty big aspirations with, the other organization that we're involved in with Sustainable Builders Alliance. I'd like to be dedicating a little bit more time for that. , From a business point of view, I still just want to be building, high performing, beautiful homes.

We've really switched our mindset now to not just build high performing homes and energy efficient homes, but really focusing on the health of the building as well. , so that's [00:16:00] going to be a bit of a theme that's going to be running through,, a lot of our projects moving forward now and like really focusing on the materials that we're using in the home.

So I'd like to think that in five years time. We've near on eliminated any VOCs in the buildings that a lot of the things that we're doing are prefabricated. Yeah, and I guess this is, one of the things we'd love to explore in this podcast is like getting on people that can, I guess, help us understand a lot more of these ways of building and, new methodologies on how to put things together and all that kind of stuff.

, what about you? Where's Carland in five years?

Hamish: I actually sat down at the start of the year, , once I come back from the Christmas break and sort of try to write down where I might be and it was, it was actually a really hard, , thing to look at because you sort of think the big picture that I'm building multi million dollar homes and you sort of break it down and to me, I like a challenge.

I get bored very easily. So I like to do things that haven't been done before or, I'd like to be really, really stimulated and problem solve as much as I might regret it at the time. I like to think through really tough situations. So I'd like to be doing sort of projects that haven't been done before.

Or pass your houses. I'm currently expanding sort of looking, expanding down the Macedon Ranges area to do some work. So I think we'll hopefully infiltrate that area a little bit in the next 5 years. My wife, Nicole, and myself, currently we just sort of won at VCAT against Maroonong, to build our own house, , which has been two years to get to this point.

So hopefully in five years, we'll be living in that house. , and that will be a passive house. So I'm super excited to get away. My shitty fucking, Telfast consuming house that just gives me, crazy allergies with that sort of stuff, so I'm sort of really excited for that, hopefully I have the same staff, hopefully maybe have one or two more, I'm always big on work life balance with my team, and hopefully I can improve on that and , you As we sort of moved into a sort of an older stage of life where we sort of started in our 40s that we can create some form of work life balance that works really, really well with lifestyle at the time. I've also started a little thing, the Builders Hive, with five other builders who are also starting to become very good friends. [00:18:00] Who knows where that takes us? It's going to be very interesting. We just want to sort of, it's not a sustainability thing. We just want to educate people on building better.

So that, that journey's fun. That's always doing something new is always exciting and interesting. But then there's this podcast, I think we really have the ability to make great change. We're the first to admit when it's our mistake or if I fuck something up, I put my hand up all the time.

And I think it's gonna be really interesting. Just get some really cool guests on and learn from them I just absolutely, I'm a sponge for information. I love reading up on things I don't know, and I just wanna learn from those around me. It makes me better. It makes my team better. makes everyone else around us better.

And I, I feel that like while I'm motivated to do it myself, I think if we can provide an easy opportunity through a podcast like this where we're both approachable to sort of provide that to sort of the marketplace and the building. Like I think this is for clients, architects, engineers, industry professionals, like apprentices, , or just anyone.

Like it's quite a scary. Thing to look at it in our industry and I constantly ask questions to clients when I first meet them. It's like what scares you most about this industry and they have a list of things and I I don't know why I have to ask that. I really want to make inviting.

I want to sort of change the narrative of where we are today. , of all the scare tactics that builders are going under and all your house is going to fall over. Like that stuff sells in the media. And I really want to, flip that on its head and try sell it. Like, you know what? There are very good people doing very good things in this industry.

So I'd like this to take off and do something special with this. I think between the two of us, I think we have the capability of doing so, mate.

Matthew: Absolutely. And look, I don't know everything, if we can offer some advice of past learnings that someone else gets something out of that they can then apply to their own business, that's awesome. But like, for me, I'm really motivated like yourself to hear other people's stories and learn from them.

And look, not the first people to bring out podcasts like this, but there is space for a whole different range of insights and, different thought processes around how things can get done or should get done or may, be slightly better, you know, way of doing things that you, how you're [00:20:00] currently doing something.

So, , hopefully this, podcast does help. educate other people, , but we're also going to have a bit of a crack and see where it takes us.

Hamish: I know we're joking before about how we're going to look back in, say, a year or so and listen to our first episodes. Like

Matthew: Oh, they're going to be so shit.

Hamish: and interview, fucking horrible and we'll look back and laugh, but I think that's the part of who we are.

We, we know that. , so you're going to have to take sort of a bit of a leap of faith with us as well and sometimes put up on the tangents we go on, Hamish of, who knows where a conversation can end up. But I think that, if we can sort of create that, that like 1 percent of change each week or each month, like those changes are really compounding.

I don't know where this ends up, like I'd hopefully love to be able to do this as a video episode at some time. But we're relying on every one of our listeners to sort of like feed us information and tell us what you want to listen to, like what we think might not be, might be cool, might not be what

Hamish: you

Matthew: Give us some raw, want to cater to a ride Yeah open and honest feedback too, like, we're grown men, you know, we can take critical feedback. In fact, the more you can give us the better. So if you think something shit or we could, do something better next time, call us out on it, help us.

Hamish: We rely on everyone around us. Like I constantly say with my business, like I'm just a puppet that pulls some strings. Like it's everyone else underneath me that's doing the hard work And they're the ones that are I'm only as good as the team around me. So in this case, the team around us is you guys.

So I really, really hope that you guys can feed us people you want to listen to, we'll reach out to them, I really think this podcast can be something fun. As I said, I have no idea where this ends up in two years. So it could end up as a live event or whatever.

I'd hope that we can get to something like that, like, we're going to make mistakes, But if there's one bit of advice, and I think we've spoken about this in the past Hamish, that if you could go back to, I know, 21 year old Hamish that's, come back from snowboarding North over in and about to embark on his construction journey, what's the one bit of

Matthew: 24 year old Hamish, you don't know a fucking thing. that is my one bit of advice to [00:22:00] 24 year old Hamish. But you know, it's funny, like think about that comment and I think about what I was like back then and I certainly wouldn't be where I am now if I didn't have that confidence in myself. And I think what's changed particularly over the last two or three years is that whereas I felt like I had to prove something, when I was younger, now I kind of feel quite comfortable in my own skin.

And, maybe my advice is that it's all a big journey and that, , you need to listen to people's feedback need to, you need to give people space to offer their opinion and their feedback and not think that you know everything.

Hamish: You see these apprentices finishing their, apprenticeship and they've done their three and a half years and it's like, Oh, I'm going to build a business and I know everything. Tell you what, you know, fucking nothing. , I knew absolutely nothing. And it's not until this point I am now where I've actually started to realize like, I still know absolutely nothing.

I'm just learning every day. , and if you have that attitude, forces you to learn, , and be comfortable with. Harder conversations and, different methods of building and ways of building. I think we just, , keep an open mind to what our industry can offer. But I don't know if there's anything else you want to add to this podcast about ourselves, Haym.

Matthew: No, no, mate,

I'm all good. I think, we'll let them go. And hopefully the next podcast will be more exciting guests other than just listening to a couple of blokes just ramble on about themselves.

Hamish: Hamish and I can talk for hours and we'll end up talking about footy or something, who knows. But, thank you for all sort of listening. , hit that subscribe button, reach out to us, ask us questions. always available to help point people in the right direction, but yeah, just make sure you sort of surround yourself with good people and I look forward to some

Matthew: Well, man, thanks. Thanks, Matty.

Hamish: Cheers, buddy. See ya.