[00:00:00] Hannah: Hi, and welcome to this episode of the awfully quiet podcast. I have a real treat for you today. I swear this conversation is going to bring equal parts, inspiration, motivation, and is also going to make you feel. Warm, fuzzy, heard, and empowered. At least that's how I feel. Today I have Alisa Jaffa on the podcast.

Alisa is a content writing and communications expert. She works in global communications at Deliveroo and is also a freelance journalist writing for publications like Business Insider, Stylist Magazine. In this episode, we dive into Elisa's journey from being a shy introvert to thriving in an industry that is often seen as an extrovert's domain.

We explore how she built connections, how she built a network, pitched herself to top publications like Albright, all the way to her experience and tips on how to build a personal brand that does the heavy lifting for you and builds a reputation for you. For what you do really well, there are so many ways in which I resonate with Alisa and her story.

I think we're both very similar from a personality point of view and that we're very similar. Introverted and ambitious. And those are traits that often seem at odds with, with each other. But Alisa brings them to life beautifully. She connects them really, really well. Her path is anything but conventional and that's what makes it so inspiring.

It is not about quitting the nine to five to chase freedom, but rather about creating a career that's both interconnected. And multidimensional, something that I actually believe is the future of work. I feel so warm and connected after this interview, and I can't wait for you to dive in and please, please tell us what you liked about it now, without further ado, let's dive into the interview. Alisa, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome to the awful quiet podcast, where we talk about.

[00:02:17] Alyssa: Thank you so much for having me, Hannah. I'm so excited to chat with you.

[00:02:21] Hannah: I'm equally excited. you have an impressive career in global communications at Deliveroo. And as a freelance journalist writing for publications like Business Insider and Stylist Magazine and Albright Post, it's all very impressive. And we've also talked about. You're being an introvert and more of like an introspective personality.

Can we start with you taking us a little bit behind the scenes and onto your journey and what has led you to the roles that you have today?

[00:02:52] Alyssa: Yes, absolutely. So I got my start as an investigative journalist coming out of university. I. Was studying at the University of California at Berkeley, and I was an office assistant during my studies to earn a bit of extra money to pay for my university tuition. And so I was working at the University of California, Berkeley's graduate school of journalism, and then, because I was able to make some connections there, I was able to do quite a lot more than.

And so I was able to get a job working there as an investigative reporter at fact checker as looking into issues and stories that had a really big impact about the sexual harassment of female farm workers and female custodial workers or corruption in gaming and sports. And I felt that. was doing really heavy work so early on in my career, just fresh out of uni, and I really wanted more adventure, more international experience.

So I came over to London to study my masters. So I studied at City University of London and got my master's degree in international journalism, but whilst I was studying. The, the field of journalism from an academic lens, it was really underscored that news is built on controversy, and this was around the time of Brexit and the 2016 general election in the us.

And to be a good journalist, especially a news reporter, you have to be a news junkie. And I was finding that quite overwhelming for myself, so I took a bit of a sideways pivot towards marketing instead. So I started working for a start of doing digital marketing for them and found quite a lot of transferable skills that I had in terms of research, writing, communication.

Audience building and trust building, especially with audiences. And from there, I moved into a content marketing role at a higher education company. I was there for a few years and I was promoted from a social media manager to the head of content strategy. And I was looking after a team of 12 content marketers and 12 content creators.

And that was around the time that the pandemic lockdown happened. And I was really feeling the creative itch to do more writing work, whereas, you know, in my, in my remit, I wasn't able to do as. Creative writing work that I really felt passionate about while I was in California, I did put a lot of freelancing for problem brand and lifestyle publications local to the San Francisco area.

Publications, like, San Francisco magazine, East Bay Express 7 by 7, I was doing a lot of arts, culture and food writing and I really was missing that quite a lot. So when the world went into lockdown, I started thinking, okay. What can I do to go beyond my remit and go beyond what I'm doing in my full time role and.

Have a creative outlet in order to do more writing work. So that's when I reached out to Albright and I started working with them and I had the lovely opportunity to write a lot of really impactful articles about women's careers, covering empathetic leadership and why it's so important or the gender pay gap or the gender pain gap about women's health.

Issues that are impacting women at work, and women's health. you know, what it takes to be a woman founder, and some really interesting deep dives as well. So that was, really, I think what kind of unlocked my side hustle, my freelancing, and I've not felt like that it has been scratched. It's something that I've.

Continue doing so I was at the higher education company for a few years, and then 2. 5 years ago, I moved over to deliver you where I am a senior manager of global communications for the writer fleet at delivery. So, I look after the comms campaigns for 10 global markets for delivery operates.and as you said, it's a really interesting role and team, I think, to be a part of, because there are so many different personalities and they tend to err on the more extroverted side.

Whereas that's not quite in my personality. So that's been really interesting to navigate.

[00:07:02] Hannah: I love that. If I, if I would just hear your story like that, I would never think that you're an introvert because you made some really bold moves, didn't you? In terms of, moving all across the world to London to then study your master's degree. you know, finding your footing in London and then getting into.

Marketing, social media, content marketing, leading a team of 12, pitching yourself to big publications like Albright posts, like all of these seem to be very bold moves. Does that come naturally to you? What kind of fuels you and what does this process look like of, going through that?

[00:07:38] Alyssa: That's such an interesting view to hear from your perspective of what it sounds like from a 3rd party. Because for me. What I remember most is needing to overcome and I'll explain a bit more about that. So I'm not really quite a shy person. I remember when I was young, I would hide in my mom's skirts and I wouldn't want to say hello to anyone who wasn't in my immediate family, you know, aunties pinching your cheeks and I just would get very red in the face and just be very uncomfortable in social settings even as a kid.

But we moved around a lot as a family. I think my parents, changed jobs quite a few times. we moved from California to Texas and then to Florida and then back to California. And then even whilst we were in Texas, we moved.we moved homes or schools every year, a year and a half, just out of economic necessity.

So I had to shed that shy part of my personality really quickly as a young kid in order to make friends and fit in and have. Any semblance of a social life in grade school, so I think naturally, I am still quite a shy person. I have to do quite a lot to psych myself up and do a lot of kind of pep talks and self awareness reflection and filling up my own cup in ways that make me feel good.

In order to get the courage to make those bold moves, but I also fundamentally believe that our life is so precious. We only get 1 chance at this. And so if there's something that you want, something that your heart is telling you, something that you're feeling inside and that you, your gut is telling you.

You have to go for it. and I think there are ways that I've learned to kind of put safety nets in place for myself to make that transition a bit more comfortable. But I've learned just go for it because you never know what's on the other side. It could be something really beautiful.

[00:09:28] Hannah: Yeah. And, I, we, we've talked about this before and I think this is where we're really similar in that. We're both introverted, but also really ambitious. Like, you know, we want to go places. So, that's probably where you've got where you felt that itch for like the bold move or, you know, switching things up.

And it, it sounds like you also built that muscle over time and having to change schools and having to change environment. all the time or very often in your childhood, you just kind of build that muscle of like, as you say, building yourself up, psyching yourself up, motivating yourself to then step into something that was bigger.

[00:10:07] Alyssa: And it probably prepared you for that first big step into then, you know, moving to London and, making these things happen. Exactly. Yeah, I think that that's so true. It is a muscle that you can that you can flex. You can practice like networking or pitching or putting yourself forward, even applying for jobs where the more you do it, the better you get at it. And then you start building a bit of resilience when it comes to rejection and reframing that rejection, not as failure, but just as more fuel to then keep looking for for what's next when I wanted to write for Albright.

I had been. In my own way for a long time before that, and it was the same with stylist and I'm happy to tell you about how how that went. I knew that I wanted to write for the publication. I have a lot of ideas brewing inside. So I for Albright, I just reached out to the editor on LinkedIn saying, hey, here's who I am.

Here's what I love to write about. Here's a story that I think could work really well on Albright. What do you think and I just have radio silence for for months and months and, you know, it was so easy. I think for me to think, oh, that's just because my idea is bad. That's not I'm not I'm not good enough for it.

But actually. A few months went by, but the editor got back to me and said, hey, I love this idea. Would love to hear more of your ideas. What else do you have for me? And then from there, I was able to build a relationship with her picture. A few more ideas, get my 1st commission and then from there editors have changed there, but I still continue to work with that organization because I've been able to build that social proof and I had a similar experience with stylist.

Actually, I had stylist on my list of dream publications to work for for. Years, I think, , since I started working in London, , in 2017, I would pick up a stylist magazine on my way out from the tube station on my way to, to work. And I used to think. This is this would be a dream to write for this publication.

so it wasn't until, a couple of years ago. Well, sometime last year, actually, that I thought, you know, what. I'm setting it as a goal and I'm going to go for it. I'm going to find a way to do it. And then comes the self doubt that same cycle of. I'm not good enough. I, I don't want to do it. Could never do this.

They only pick women who are X, Y, Z, and I'm a B. C. And it's just not, you know, something that that I could do. but then that that same belief in myself, that ambition that you spoke about, it kept speaking to me in the back of my mind of no, you can do it. You've been able to do other things. You've been able to do other hard things.

So that's something that you want. Just put the steps in place to do it. So, I then decided to break down what I thought was quite an intimidating goal to get a commission with them into smaller bite size, more achievable goals. So I thought, okay, 1st, I need to get in contact with an editor. And in order to do that, having an.

Having a direct connection would give me better success. So I reached out to my network and actually my client at Albright. Used to work at stylist. So I asked her for an introduction to someone in the editorial team, which she was happy to do, which was brilliant editor was kind enough after a while to sit down with me and have copy and workshop a few of my pitches with me that I'd sent to an editor at stylist.

I didn't hear back. And I thought, okay, well, that's it. I've pitched. I've tried and clearly my ideas aren't good enough. So, she was kind enough to kind of talk me through here's here's how to update those to make them work for stylists. And here's what we're looking for. Here are the contact details of the editors and who looks after what vertical.

Then I thought, right, I have everything I need. I've got the pieces, I've got the intel, I've got the contact information. Now all I need is to actually sit down and write my pitches. And I blocked myself again for a period of six months or so where I just thought I need to do it. I need to do it. And then I kind of built it up as something so scary that I think my thought was that if I fail at this point, it's no one's fault but my own.

And it's my own failure because everyone else around me has helped me in order to, to get as close as I can to my goal. And then 1 day, I, you know, so I thought, let me just park that for a while because I think the goal, the goal on its own is just becoming a bit too cumbersome mentally to get through.

So I thought, let me just park it for a while. And so I focused instead on building on my network. I was running a dinner series at delivery for the gender equity group. where I was bringing together professional women, both within delivery and outside of delivery from companies like. Zoe and tick tock and Goldman Sachs and bringing them together to talk about a particular issue.

So, that impact women at work. So we were speaking about the importance of self promotion. And so I started looking a bit more into, and I came across this really fascinating research about a technique for self promotion in the workplace, which is about dual promotion. And basically, it's the practice where rather than bragging about yourself at work, you brag about a team achievement and you bring that to the attention of the stakeholders around to say, look, here's what we achieved as a team.

And in that you are positioning yourself as a voice piece for others and promoting others. But then you also are highlighting your own achievement that you and your team enabled that, that success or that achievement. And so, I, I found this research super interesting, so I thought, you know what, this would make a great topic for an article.

So I wrote a pitch. It took me maybe 20, 25 minutes. It was just me in my zones focused and doing what I do really well. All of that's helped out just kind of shut off. I sent the pitch and I didn't think anything more about it. And then the next morning, I had good news in my inbox that the editor commissioned the piece, which was so brilliant.

I think such a important, pivotal moment for me to learn. Actually, I just need to get out of my own way to achieve something that I've wanted for so long. And then from there, I was able to just continue pitching and continue writing for for them where now I have, you know, 5, 6, 7 articles published for them and I would have never been able to.

Happen to that success if I hadn't gotten out of my own way.

[00:16:15] Hannah: You know what, there's also something to be said about there is always a right moment for something to happen or for an idea to come. And I always feel like, especially when it comes to creativity and being creative, sharing ideas, it has to be the right moment. And so it was probably almost meant to be like that.

but obviously you beat yourself up for procrastinating so long, which is, very introverted, but there's so much in there. Where I just want to go back and like dissect some of it and what you've actually done. So you said you had a dream list to begin with. So you almost had a dream of like, these are the publications that I would really like to approach that I would like to pitch to.

So it's almost like finding that clarity of like, this is something that I really, really want. which is the first step that. I think most of us tend to underestimate and like getting anything in our career. So that's really, really important. And then you actually did the work. So you said that you read all the articles that you've got all the magazines and you really dove into one, the topics that you were interested in and that you could write about or speak about, but then also doing the work of like, kind of like you knew what you were doing at this point and you have probably read.

a lot in those magazines and you knew a lot about these publications before you even pitch to them, right? So I think that's another thing that's very admirable and it really lends itself to our introverted audience because I think that is something that we can be super, super strong at. It's kind of like doing the work.

[00:17:49] Alyssa: doing the work exactly and I've always thought of myself as a hard worker. I don't mind working hard. I grew up in an immigrant family. So I know firsthand. What it takes to actually be successful through the hardships that my parents had to base moving from East Africa to the US and UK and building a life.

For themselves, where they knew no 1 and they had no connections. So I think that work ethic was drilled into me at quite a young age and I completely agree with you. I think. That 90 percent of the work is that hard work that we probably underestimate as, as you pointed out, but that 10 percent is actually.

What can unlock your goal and for me, I learned, I think, through this process that the prize is behind the push. You go through the hard bit 1st, and then there's something amazing on the other side. If you can just. Set yourself up to succeed, tap on your network and people who want to help you. Be clear about what it is that you want for yourself in your own goal and.

Write that down, articulate it, think about it, ruminate on it and. Think outside of, you know, if the 1st door that you try. Is closed. What are other doors that you might be able to approach? What are other ways that you could potentially come at it? And I think timing as well about what you said is, is so relevant because so often the stories that we tell ourselves have no basis in truth.

We think, okay, that idea was bad. When actually. It could have been, you know, and I've had loads of other pitches that I've sent to stylists, even though the editor knows me that haven't been accepted. Not because my idea is bad, but, you know, sometimes I'll see it up later on their website already. So they already were working on that story and another writer had already been working on that.

Sorry, so the idea is good. It's just that I was a bit too late with my timing or, you know, there's not enough budget or it's not right now. Not not ever. So, yeah, there's so many different pieces of of what it really takes to. to get out of our own way, but I think hard work is such a big piece of that.

[00:20:01] Hannah: Yeah, yeah, I completely get that. another thing that you kept mentioning was network and connecting. And I think when you first came to London, did you know anyone yet? Did you have that network or did you just kind of build it up over time?

[00:20:14] Alyssa: No, I didn't know anyone. My dad used to live in London for 10 years in the. In the 70s, so that wasn't very useful and I knew the students that I met on my course were also newcomers to London. So we were also. Navigating the city together, so it took me some time, I think, to build up my network. And I think, especially after I finished my, my studies.

Entering the working world, I think it was really important to start building roots because London is such a transient city. There are people who come and go people who are here for a very short amount of time and then go back to their home country or are just here for a short time. I also thought I was only here for 3 years.

So, the 1st, 2 years I was in London, I didn't think that it was that important to start establishing routes here and start. Being really intentional about my network. It wasn't until after the pandemic really that I started thinking more carefully about how can I. Add value to others. In the hopes that at some point, maybe that will then come back around to me.

but I think taking that approach to networking has been really transformative for me. I think introverts. I think struggle with networking as it is because it's very intimidating to just. Walk up to someone, approach someone online or in and say, do this for me. Help me. Here's who I am. You're putting yourself out there and it can be quite nerve wracking.

But I think finding there, there's lots of ways that you can make it a bit less intimidating. So, for me, I think what's been really valuable is really investing in a small circle around me. So people who I work with, who have become friends and who are now my friends. Even after we've both left that company, they know me and they know my value and they know what I'm good at and what I can and can't do.

They know my potential really well, and they know how great I am. So, they have been become cheerleaders for me, where, for my freelance business, I've gotten leads from both of them advocating for me with their, with their workplaces, their friends, their connections, who are looking for a content writer or a copywriter, or someone who can write an article or.

Do web content management or social media management and being able to then invest in those your small circle and really go deep instead of going wide. I think is is 1 way that it makes it a bit less intimidating because you're not. It's not transactional. It's not something that you're trying to get out of it.

It's a relationship that you're building a connection that you're building. And then from there, then you have more people advocating for you, which I think is is really valuable. I think another way that can make networking a bit more approachable for introverts is showing up online and, like, investing some time in your personal brand.

So, if you're able then to think about what is the 1 thing that you want people to know you for. What is the 1 thing that you have to say, or that you want people to know you for remember you for for creatives that could be graphic design or writing or. Podcasting or video. Creating videos on tick tock, or whatever that looks like, how can you then share your art share your craft with a wider audience?

And even if you're not. Talking 1 to 1 with people, you're basically just. Doing it for yourself where you're putting it on your own owned channels, your own social media, your own website, your own portfolio in order to get used to it to kind of practice that muscle. I think that, you know, being able to.

Then make 1 to 1 connections also helps for me, it's a lot easier to introduce myself to 1 person than it is to. Stand up on stage and introduce myself to an entire group of people who I am very conscious or staring at me and looking at me and potentially judging what I'm wearing. Is there something in my teeth?

You know, you kind of get into my head a little bit with it. So being able to approach people 1 on 1 I found is a lot less intimidating because it's more like. A casual chat rather than I am networking, which can be intimidating.

[00:24:14] Hannah: Yeah, what I really like about your experience is that it's almost, there is a little bit of upfront effort and like reaching out to that first person, but there is also a trickle effect. Like, once you get the ball rolling, you share that, you know, people just kind of came to you for things. And once you've established yourself, or positioned yourself against a certain topic that you want to be known for, all of a sudden people reach out to you that you've never connected with just because of, you know, You know, people are spreading the word and there is a little bit of word of mouth and it almost becomes Like an organic thing to happen, which I think is the most introvert friendly way of Getting out there as you sell or putting yourself out there online.

[00:24:56] Alyssa: Yeah, and it's such a humbling experience to when I receive a message from someone who's read an article that I've written and they give me their take or tell me that it's resonated with them or a client that's come through on that. I'm now working with on on content for LSE London school of economics who read an article that I wrote and I put up on my linkedin and put a post up thinking.

Even if no one reads this, it's fine. I'm doing it because I think I'm proud of it. I'm proud of what I've produced here and I'm going to share it. And if I don't get a lot of likes or comments, that's for me, not the goal. The goal actually is. Making the post itself and putting myself out there and, being proud that I actually took the time to showcase my work.

but you never know who's out there reading. So I think it's important to, especially in the digital age, where we are now with. Online brand branding and personal branding being so key and core to building social proof. It's it's almost that, if you don't build your own reputation, other people will do it for you.

They'll speak about you. They'll build your personal brand for you. So you may as well be in control of the narrative and come out in front of it and say what it is that you want to say about yourself.

[00:26:10] Hannah: Yeah, I would have initially Assumed that journalism communications the field that industry you're in really lends itself for extroverted personalities, right? It's like, it's like you, you gotta build a lot of connections. You got, you know, need to be visible. You need to be in the spotlight to a certain extent.

But there's this one piece that makes me think there is something in there for introverts. It's like the whole content. Management piece and almost like, you know, producing content for something that you're genuinely interested in. It doesn't put you in the spotlight. It puts whatever you write about in the spotlight, whatever you care about.

And I think that's what content marketing is, isn't it? It's like, almost like placing that spotlight away from you as a person and more so what you can bring the value that you add. and that makes me think. That's actually quite introvert friendly. Would you say that, you know, for anyone interested in communications, in journalism, what are some of the things where you say introversion actually lends itself to do great in this industry?

And what are some of the pitfalls where you say, you know, this is what you just have to get over in order to succeed?

[00:27:20] Alyssa: Yes, I really love this question because there's so much I have to say. So 1 of them, I think. I think you're completely right in that you would expect communications and journalism to be a very extroverted field and it is a lot of big personalities that don't have. The types of hang ups or setbacks or things that I hold myself back with.

I seen my colleagues. It's not an issue for them approaching people and going loud with it and going big with it. I've found actually that there's a lot of power, though, in the introversion. 1 area is through interviewing so this is particularly relevant for journalism, but I think as well is is really important for communications is listening and interviewing the key to a good interview is building trust and to build trust.

You have to be patient. You have to hold back a little bit. You have to let the speaker. Share and there's a lot of power and silence as well, particularly on a sensitive topic. I remember in my investigative journalism days, I was seeing the pros at work and in my newsroom and I would always think, how are they doing that?

I can never do that asking someone about. Such a traumatic experience in their life or something that's so personal to them. I could never do that. But seeing the way that they. Would make people feel comfortable and almost just allow the forum for the storytelling to happen. That's where the magic is.

And I think what you said about it as a journalist, it's not so much about being the spotlight and being the talker. It's about building the platform and then moving out of the way for the subject matter expertise or the case study, the person to share their story through your words. And I think that that's, there's actually quite a lot of beauty in that of stepping aside and allowing the story to be the center of the focus.

I think, so I think that there's quite a lot of. Valuable attributes that introverts tend to have of being empathetic, being very emotionally intelligent and being, Not being always in a rush to speak and not.

[00:29:24] Hannah: Not listening to respond, but rather listening to understand and to empathize and to digest.

[00:29:30] Alyssa: I think it's all really crucial to be a good and impactful journalist and as well a good communicator. It goes the same for the relationships that you build. Communication is a core skill for every human. We, we can't do this life alone. We need one another to. To succeed, to survive, to thrive, to make it through day to day, and we need one another.

And communication is such a poor part of that. So, introverted qualities I think are absolutely crucial. I think as well, some things that you, you know, have to learn to, to practice and to, to get better at are, there are times when you need to speak up, when you need to say what it is that needs to be said.

When you need to flag something that could be an issue down the line. In my work and delivery, I do a bit of crisis communications work as well. So I think that that's really crucial of sounding the alarm when you need to and getting ahead of, getting ahead of something before it can become a bigger issue is is really important.

But again, I think that also goes back to the trust that you build with your stakeholders. How much can they trust you to. Have good judgment to be correct about things and be accurate about things. And I think that those are all very introverted qualities of building trust. Building deep relationships that then can be relied on when you get in a difficult situation.

So I would say for any introverts out there listening, who are interested in pursuing journalism or communications, don't let your personality type hold you back. You might need to have unscheduled rest time to recover. Particularly after a really interview or a really complicated press release or something like that, but it's so rewarding as well.

And we need jurors in those industries.

[00:31:11] Hannah: I love the case that you're making for introverts with all these qualities and especially the last two that you mentioned, which they are just less visible. I think, is kind of, you know, you're able to anticipate things that are going to happen down the line. It's almost like that strategic insight and that perspective of.

If you spend some time pondering and thinking through things and almost like envisioning how certain things are going to pan out down the line, that's something that's a very introspective quality. And especially in communications and PR and you know, what's going to happen down the line in any corporate setting.

Is going to be super valuable and is always going to put you in a very good light with senior stakeholders in the workplace, I think, and then equally the building trust. And, I think that often gets underestimated too, like the ability to, allow somebody to open up and, you know, building trust report is so important for both your.

You know, in journalism, but also in communications in the workplace, in corporate, like getting people to get back to you on time or like trust you enough to run with certain things. You're also more likely to be given ownership or leadership over certain things. So, I feel like it's. We often talk about this as soft skills, but it's actually so, so powerful.

So I just wanted to underline that again of how much of a powerhouse, skill set that is.

[00:32:39] Alyssa: Yes, it's a core skill. I think I also agree. I don't think it's a soft skill. I think the communication stakeholder management. Trust building, reputation building, they're also core to success and the corporate world that we live in.

[00:32:54] Hannah: Yeah. Where I want to double click is the reputation building, because you mentioned, like, you want to make sure to position yourself against like one topic. You want to be known for one thing. you know, something that people are going to remember you by. How did you do that in your career? Was there a certain topic where you said, this is what I, you know, continuously want to write about or, I want to be known for writing or I want to be known for great communication.

Did you end up doing this, separately for your corporate job and then for when it comes to journalism? How did you go about that?

[00:33:29] Alyssa: I think I'm still navigating it if I'm honest, I think all of us really, when it comes to personal brand, there's no finish. You're always building it even really established, Influencers or authors or speakers, they all are still continuing to build when it comes to their, their personal brand. So I think there's, there's a few things for me.

I've been a writer my whole life. It's what I always knew I was, and I used to think everyone is good at writing. I thought that it was, I didn't think it was a skill. I thought it was inherent. I thought that's, that's how to do it. So clearly everyone has that skill. And people have to tell me, no, actually, you're very good at this.

And not everyone is you're different. You're special when it comes to writing. So, I think that having that encouragement from from my upbringing, I think was was really important to help. shape that framing of your talent as a skill. And, I think what I would encourage people to do is tap into that, whatever that is, like, whatever your heart is telling you that this is what you're put on this earth for whatever you're made for, whatever your special secret talent is tap into that because there's a lot of power there.

And so for me, I think, what I want people to know me for, it's not singular. I am a writer, but I'm also. A kind person, I'm also an expat and a child of immigrants. I'm also a woman of color. I have so many different identities that I wear all the time that I like to flex and even. Corporately speaking, I position myself as a communications expert, a copywriter, a content marketer.

A journalist. All of these different, but related titles or hats that I give myself, and I think it's because I have a lot of different interests. So there's not 1 particular topic or area that I only write about, because. I love writing about careers topics and things like the gender investment gap, but I also love to write about women's health and why.

There's a discrepancy when it comes to how we treat women's health issues than health more generally. And I'm also interested in travel, because that's a passion of mine as well. I'm also interested in writing about lifestyle and food and. All of these different interests that I have, I'm continually exploring, which I think is also okay.

I think it's, it's okay to give yourself permission that maybe you don't want to be known for 1 thing or 1 skill or 1 area. But what are other ways then that you can build your reputation? And I think that trust piece that we were speaking about is so important there because. Your reputation effectively is what people say about you when you're not there.

So, can people rely on you to deliver work on time to deliver work to a high quality? If you say you're going to do something, are you actually going to do it? Are you going to show up and so much of that then builds your reputation that I want to be someone who is reliable. I want to be someone who delivers excellent work.

I want to be someone who is seen as a leader and who works hard and who cares about the. Professional development of the people around her. All of these different reputation pieces that I'm wanting to cultivate. So I think authenticity is really important when it comes to that, because faking it, I think, just becomes exhausting really quickly.

So, if what you're wanting to be is a social media influencer, but you hate being on camera, maybe it's time to think about, okay, is this really what I want them? Like, what exactly would be a way that I can do this authentically where I can. Okay. Provide value, but maybe take a different road. Maybe I don't want to be on camera myself, but I want to.

Do box pops and interview other people and have that be the content that I produce or, you know, I want to be a speaker, but only virtually. What does that then look like in a way? That's comfortable. And authentic and accessible to you, because, you know, I think. Putting on a front being really aggressive when that's not in your nature or being stepping on toes.

If that's not what comes naturally to you, it can become really hard to keep that mask on all the time.

[00:37:40] Hannah: Yeah, yeah. What I really like about what you're saying is, I think personal branding is such a buzzword these days, isn't it? And I think what people often envision when they hear personal branding is like, oh, that's something for like, you know, big celebrities or people in the public eye. and it's almost like, you know, building up a website or, you know, fancy banners on LinkedIn and what you say personal branding is, is essentially being known for something, but also showing up as a certain someone and it's not so much just articulating.

And, you know, speaking about this is who I am and this is what I am about, but it's showing other people it's like showing up as, as somebody that is going to leave a certain impression, but not necessarily as somebody who, you know, just kind of sells themselves. And then it's like not walking the talk.

So I think that is really, really important. And that's also going to ease introverts into this whole topic is you don't have to necessarily. You know, articulate yourself in a fancy way or in a super cohesive way or like sell yourself and pitch yourself aggressively, but it can just be showing up a certain way and being intentional in the way that you show up.

I think that's what I'm really getting from what you're saying. Yeah.

[00:38:59] Alyssa: I believe that personal branding happens both online and offline. So. In your offline interactions with your colleagues, when you're putting a doc together, even when you're writing an email or a message on teams or slack to your colleague. All of those are touch points where you're building your personal brand.

People are making an impression of you. And although I think introverts might tend to shy away from the idea of personal branding, because it can seem really intimidating, the reality is, is that it's happening. Anyway, it's happening without you. Your performance review is happening already every year where your manager is assessing your performance or you're being assessed for whether you're ready to be promoted.

Or when you're applying for a job and a recruiter is reviewing your CV. They're making an impression of you based on what you're saying about yourself. So it already exists in all these different ways. So it's not so much about going viral on LinkedIn and posting these. Algorithmic stuff. Posts on LinkedIn about, you know, that are a bit cringy and don't feel very authentic to you.

There's so many different ways that you can do it. And I would say basically treating your personal brand as the mark or the impact that you want to leave people with. How do you want people to feel after they finish talking to you that can make it then a much more accessible way. It then goes back to your small circle of what is a small.

[00:40:19] Hannah: What I also really liked in what you're saying in terms of where you started with your personal brand is you started with the skill that you have writing. And I think at first glance. You know, being a writer, it doesn't really set yourself apart because there are a lot of writers out there. Aren't they?

I think that's where we often just kind of shy away from like, no, I, you know, I can't say that I'm a writer or I can't say I'm a speaker, or I'm often very shy to say I'm a podcaster because I've certainly not done enough episodes yet in my life. So I think that this is something that where, where you duck.

I'm a writer, but there are special ways of how I go about writing. There is something that is different in how I do it. That's unconventional. That gives it flavor. That gives it a little bit of a secret sauce. And something that you mentioned, too, is you're a kind person. And I feel like that is where you are.

Add your personality and your flavor to that aspect of I'm a writer. I'm also this type of person. So I'm more inclined to look at things in a certain way and approach people in a certain way. And that then gets me stories. And that exposes me to circles that I probably wouldn't if I wasn't that kind of writer.

So, I think that's where it's so special to bring in your personality and also your introspection and, you know, being kind as I feel like also introverted trait, where, where it almost feels like it doesn't take away from your skill. It doesn't take away from your strengths. It adds to it. It gives it flavor.

And that's how our brand comes to life. Right.

[00:42:02] Alyssa: yes, absolutely. And I think dipping into your authenticity is so important in that, because you're completely right. There are millions of writers out there. There are millions of podcasters, anything that any of us are doing. We're not the only ones doing that because we live in a structure, a society of predefined.

Roles in what we can do. So, to be truly unique is. It's incredibly difficult, but what makes each of us unique is our own life story, our own lived experiences, our own various identities that we wear. And the more that you can bring that to the floor, to the front, that's how you then cut through the noise because that's unique to you and no one can take your life stories away from you, your life experience, your lived experience.

So I think that, being able to dip into your authenticity, I think, especially for introverts, it's almost like a breath of fresh air because you can just be yourself. That's what will be make you different from everyone else is just there's no one else around you like, you

[00:43:03] Hannah: think that's it. That's essentially a spot on it. Just being yourself is what's going to make it different. And I think that's the one thing that we often try not to do very intentionally. So, isn't it, especially in a corporate setting, in the workplace, we try to conform. We try to fit in. There's a certain amount of having to fit in that is actually essential.

But then, I think especially when it comes to you know, you know, getting over a certain ceiling, it's when you're truly yourself. And I feel like that's always the leaders that truly inspire me. They have something that is different that just sets them apart and that makes them special and it's who they are.

[00:43:46] Alyssa: Yeah.

[00:43:47] Hannah: daunting, isn't it? But yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:49] Alyssa: I, I, I completely agree and I think it's, it's tough as well, because the corporate structure, it doesn't always lend itself to exploring. Who are you as a person and what makes you special? What makes you different? It is a lot about conformity and structure and hierarchy and process, and it can be really rigid, especially for creative people.

So 1 thing that I think I've learned over the course of my career as well is. Identifying when is it when is it me? And when is it the environment? That's not allowing me to thrive. If I'm starting to feel maybe boxed in or stop or creatively stifled. Is there something that I'm doing wrong? Something in my communication that I could do differently or feedback that I could take on in order to, Do things differently, take a different approach. How far can that get me versus 1? Is it the environment around me? That's not allowing me to. Why the way I want to, and I think that it's tough as well, because obviously everyone needs to work. You need to find a way to to earn money in order to survive and sustain yourself.

But for me, I've managed to find a way where I can do a lot of creative work outside of my full time remit. In order to satisfy that, that creative outlet that I need in order to feel more like myself and tap more into myself and I'm found as well that by having small wins in that area by. Having a pitch commissioned or reaching out to a connection that I've been admiring for a long time, and I've wanted to have a copy with, or.

Someone recommends me for something or refers me to someone else, small things like that small wins, then motivate me to continue going, even though it's really hard, even though it's takes a lot out of me to basically be doing a job and a half. I'm finding that those small things are motivating me and signaling to me, I'm on the right track and I'm doing the right things and.

I'm not 100 percent successful. No 1 is and no 1 will be and I certainly I'm not and won't be, but it's enough to keep me going.

[00:46:00] Hannah: It's also what I find so refreshing about your career is, you know, there's so much out there in, in, in, in the online space about, you know, quit your nine to five and like, how do you get from your nine to five into, you know, entrepreneurship and starting your own thing and your online business. And you have this beautiful career of.

Both coexisting, you have a smashing, you know, corporate career, I would, I would almost say, and then also a freelance business and they coexist. And I'm pretty sure it's not always easy. And you will probably think, you know, at certain points that it's not so easy for them to coexist, but I feel like that's where we're, that that's what we're going towards as, as a culture and almost like, this is what we're going to end up doing is like lots of different.

Bits and pieces of like things that fuel us and that ultimately fulfill us. What, what do you think about that?

[00:46:55] Alyssa: I love that and again, I really love how you framed it because I think I really needed to see your perspective to view it that way as well. I, I think linear careers are a thing of the past. The future work is flexible and careers are more and more the norm where. You tap into a few different areas, sometimes out of necessity where you need a job and that's what you need to do to get by and pay bills.

But then as well, you might discover or experience. A completely new industry area, subject or subject area that you didn't know you could do, or you could be good at. So I think. Allowing ourselves the space to explore in a lateral way as well, and not constantly be thinking I need to move up. But what can I do sideways?

Where else can I look and giving yourself the time and opportunity to pop your head up from the 9 to 5 Brian day after day, week after week to think. What is it that I really want out of my life? What do I really want to contribute? What type of work do I really want to be doing? And then breaking that down into what are the smaller steps that I can take to get there?

Someone who's already doing it who I admire. Can I talk to them and learn more about their journey? Or, can I, read more about it? Or can I, Put myself in a, in a place that would make me more successful to succeed in that area. Or can I actually just articulate this to my manager and say, this is actually what I want.

This is what I want to be doing. How can we work together to find a project or a work stream in which I can fulfill my goals? This type of growth that I want to achieve, because ultimately we're all responsible for our own careers. So if you don't take the time to think about how you want your career fulfillment to look, no, 1 will do it for you.

[00:48:38] Hannah: It is so, so powerful and, it opens up doors, doesn't it? I feel like careers are often like an either, or like either you work a corporate job or you work for yourself. You're an entrepreneur and it can be an end can be like, you know, fractional. And it can be a little bit of both and just kind of thinking along the lines of I can be this and also this

[00:49:05] Alyssa: Yeah,

[00:49:06] Hannah: opens up these doors.

And I find that powerful. And there's actually something that I just want to wrap up with because we started talking about this at the beginning. And I think I just want to underline what you did there in terms of. being very intentional with the environment that you're in. You mentioned at the beginning, you just kind of, you know, sought out moving to London, to, you know, just kind of be in that space where you thought you could really grow, position yourself within the world of communications and journalism.

You could really learn here. And then you reached out to certain publications who made sure that you are. in the remit of certain, people and build a network very intentionally and just kind of put yourself into spaces, but also into the company of other people that would allow you to grow. And that resonates so much with me because I often feel like I'm only as good as my environment.

And I feel it's like a chameleon. I often feel like I can almost like, You know, soak up the energy around me and I can really feel when I'm surrounded by people who want to develop and grow or when I'm like in a city such as London, for example, it just kind of feels like you think bigger just being there.

[00:50:16] Alyssa: is that the way it worked for you? I think, yeah, I think it's a bit more complicated than that for me. I think, you know, it's, it's not been easy by any stretch to come from a U. S. work culture and find a way to navigate and survive and thrive in a U. K. work culture. And

[00:50:36] Hannah: Oh, interesting.

[00:50:37] Alyssa: You know, I think there's quite a lot of differences in terms of the way that people communicate the British sensibility, how things are perceived what's said and not said.

There's so much under the surface. that that's not said where it's American culture is quite a lot more direct. So those are all things that I've learned to navigate just by being, I think, observant, aware. And self aware, and I think being an introvert is such a key part of that, because I'm someone who will rethink a conversation or an interaction for hours afterwards, thinking.

Why didn't I say that, or was there a coded message behind that that I didn't quite pick up on or something that that was there and maybe it was implicit and I didn't quite grasp it. But I think what I've learned as well is. Everyone is kind of thinking about themselves. Most of the time, if not all the time.

So a lot of what I, my, my own stories that I run in my head, sometimes I have to interrupt myself and think, no one cares about this. It's actually really not important, and you're making something out of really nothing. It's no big deal. And I think that that's a lesson I've had, had to reinforce myself a few times because, and I love pointing back to instances where getting outta my own way actually helped me succeed because my inner critic.

Is it always wrong about so much and my inner cheerleader, my inner champion is what's actually allowing me to reach goals, grow, be uncomfortable, but learn something from that discomfort and unlock opportunities that weren't previously available to me. So, I think part of it as well is about, you know, if there are multiple voices in your head, you have your ambition.

You also have your self doubt. It's a choice who you believe.

[00:52:17] Hannah: Yeah, I like that he's, that you're calling them inner voices and you almost, you know, just kind of, you know, the self talk and you choose the one that's going to fuel you. You're probably never going to be able to fully dial down the inner critic. It's always going to be there. We all have it, but it's almost like.

What do you fuel? What do you believe? And at any given moment, I find that very beautiful. Alisa, thank you so much for joining us today. I have so many takeaways. Thank you so much for, for sharing your story. I find that so, so important. I said this to you earlier. I think we need to share more of these stories of introverts in spaces and in industries that, don't at first glance lend themselves.

For our kind of personalities, but you seem to be thriving and you're doing a really good job. And yeah, I can't wait to, to see more of you, to hear more of you, to read more of you and would love for you to share with my audience where they can, potentially connect with you or read your articles, and where they can find you on the Internet.

[00:53:20] Alyssa: Yes, I'm super accessible, so anyone can reach out to me on LinkedIn, Elisa Jaffer, and my website is elisajaffer. com. I've also got a contact page up there. Instagram, Twitter, X, all the social media, some super reachable and wanted to thank you as well. So much kind of for having me. I found this discussion.

So, for both super interesting and really valuable. So thank you so much for having.

[00:53:45] Hannah: We'll have to do this again sometime.

[00:53:47] Alyssa: Absolutely.

[00:53:48] Hannah: Lisa.