Washington Square On-Air is the audio town square for the Washington Square Review, Lansing Community College's literary journal. Writers, readers, scholars, publishing professionals, citizens of the world, gather here and chat about all things writing.

Hey there. This is Melissa Ford Lucken, editor of the Washington Square Review. I'm here today with Michael Waterson, whose poem Fairy Tale Ending is in our Summer 25 issue. Hey there, Michael.

Hi, Melissa.

I asked you to read the poem, so would you please read it for us?

Absolutely. Fairy Tale Ending by Michael Watterson. She scours her lips but cannot scrub away the disenchantment. Kisses bitter taste. The smooch supposed to break an evil spell was in reality a poison apple. Too late she learned the slights of sorcery. The trick to how a lady sawed in half. She's now a cat stuck up his family tree, A nursemaid to his goggle eyed green brats who leaves her bloody footprints as she trips from room to cavernous room, Always at her back a witch's laughter, A curse she carries with her ever after.

Darkly beautiful. Thank you for reading that. So tell us a little bit about the poem. How did you come to write it?

Sure. Well, a few years back I wrote a short play. I've always been interested in fairy tales and if you go back and look at the originals, you find they're much darker, absolutely more horrific than, than what has come down to us through Walt Disney mainly. And for example, Cinderella's sisters cut off their toes to try and fit into the glass slipper. Sleeping Beauty was discovered by a king who actually raped her while she was unconscious and then left and she was awakened by giving birth to twins. That's. She was not awakened by a kiss. So I was always interested in dark fairy tales. And a few years back I wrote a, I wrote a short play about the princess and the frog prince. The princess turned back into a frog and they, they're seeking marriage counseling. And so this sort of grew out of that whole idea of, you know, we, we think of a fair. A fairy tale ending is a, is, is what we think of as ideal and blissful and everyone lives happily ever after. But that's, that's not real life. And lots of times, especially in the, in the Middle Ages, where these stories grew out of life was life rarely ended happily ever after. So I wanted to load it up with irony.

Do you think that's why the stories were written with the dark way that they were, is because to reflect the current lifestyle?

Well, it was certainly a pretty horrific time to live. I mean life was Pretty short and brutal even. Even if you were fortunate enough to be in the aristocracy, there were, there, you know, there were just challenges in survival that we can hardly imagine today. The Black Plague and all kinds of diseases that they had no, no cures for much less, you know, you're even, even alleviating pain was not something they were very good at. So, yeah, I think that's, I think that's part of it. It was just, you know, life was much more brutal than we're used to or can imagine nowadays.

People have told me that the fairy tales used to be meant more as warnings, like lessons. Do you think that also.

Yeah, I think, I think that's, I think that's true. I think that's very true that they were all cautionary tales, not, not meant to live happily ever after.

So is that what you said you were interested in, in the original fairy tales? Is that what drew you? Was the, the nature of them or was it also how they've changed over time?

Just. Yeah, it was about both. That certain over time was what, what I was more focused on. You know, I grew up on Walt Disney and, and so I, I was very interested in how we've, we've, we've sort of distorted the, the origins of things to, for our own entertainment and edification.

But yeah, so we were talking about lessons that were embedded in the stories. Do you think they're the current versions, the nicer, happier ending ones? Do you think they still hold lessons or not as much?

Well, I think they're just intended for a much narrower audience. You know, they're intended for five year olds. Whereas the originals were really more folktales than, you know, they weren't, they weren't really intended for children. They were more, they, they were more lessons for all ages.

Okay.

You know, grown ups, Grown ups as well especially. So. Yeah, I, I think that's, it's just a, I think it's just a signal of how, you know, our attitudes have changed so much through, throughout history and fortunately, I mean, we've, we've made great strides. You know, diseases like the, the plague and smallpox and tuberculosis, even tuberculosis, which was common 200 years ago, killed millions of people. We, you know, eliminated most of those, those problems.

So when did you, when did you start getting interested in the dark fairy tales?

I always had them sort of in the back of my mind. But there's a book called the Uses of Enchantment which, it talks about the psychological basis of fairy tales. I think it was Bettelheim. I'm trying to remember the name of the author.

Okay.

That's, you know, these fairy tales, you know, brought up fears that everybody. Everybody has. And there were. You know, there were reasons why these stories were so popular because. Because they. They addressed anxieties and concerns that. That everybody's got in their unconscious.

Right. Kind of a universal appeal.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

So how does this particular poem bit into your other creative works?

Well, it's. I'm led a lot by my ear. I started getting interested in poetry mainly as a teenager. And in those days, Welsh poet Dylan Thomas was like a rock star. And the thing that drew me to him and a lot of people was just the musicality of his. Of his poetry. And then I did a fair amount of acting as a young guy and a lot of Shakespeare. And, of course, Shakespeare's music is just irresistible. Once you start talking Shakespeare, it's just. It's just very addictive.

So the music of the language.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was. That was my original attraction to. To poetry. And I still write formal poetry. I had a couple of sonnets, win contests just this year. You know, good old iambic pentameter, rhyming. Even though rhyme is not, you know, not very fashionable these days, and editors aren't very fond of rhyme for poetry collections.

But I want to come back and talk about that current controversy. But I'm going to take a little side note to ask, what is your favorite character to perform or favorite Shakespeare play?

Oh, boy. Well, it would have to be Hamlet, I guess. I was fortunate enough to play Hamlet here at the local college. I won't tell you how many years ago that was, but.

Okay, and why that? Why Hamlet?

Well, because. For a lot of reasons, because of the breadth, the psychological depth and breadth of the character. And poetry is just unrivaled, the philosophical questionings of the play.

It's very universal.

Very universal. Lawrence Olivier said in one of his biographies, he said, I'll never get to play him again. But I wish I could, because every time. I think every time you approach it, approach the play and the character, you get different insights right into it.

I could imagine if you did it again, because you said it had been years ago, that you would interpret it a little bit differently.

Yeah. And I think that's. And it's so rich. That's why it's. It's. It's probably the most performed play in the world. And. And, you know, there's a reason for that. It's just. It's just so profound and so. And then so much fun, frankly. I mean, you know, if you're an actor, there's. There. There are a few roles that offer you as just as much joy and. And fun to. To perform. So.

All right, so let's go back to the. The poetry controversy. For someone who's not a poet, could you talk a little bit about what you were saying with the rhyming and the. Not rhyming and rhyming. Follow favorite.

Sure. You know, my sense is we've. Modern poetry has. Has. There's a lot of focus on originality. There's a lot of focus on sincerity. Form. Form and technique, I think, have. Have taken on an air of insincerity, of kind of. Its technique is regarded as somewhat dishonest, I think. And. And when you're in a modern environment, I think that the. The real focus is on honest communication, I guess I would say so. And rhyme. And rhyme and. And meter sort of bespeak trickery, you know.

Okay.

Masking. That's. That's just an obstacle to direct communication.

So it sounds like what you're saying is that the formal poetry ends up being more like a template, maybe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's also. But, but as a. As a writer, that's. That can be very freeing.

I've heard people say that also.

Yeah, because, you know, this is. You've got the, the mold now. What can you do within it? You've got. You got the, the canvas now. What. What can you do in this. In this canvas?

Because certainly that's interesting if everyone is using the same canvas. Canvas. How differently each person would approach it and what they would come up with.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, very true, very true. Plus, it's, you know, it's difficult form. It's difficult to be original when you're using the same forms over and over again. And we, we highly prize originality nowadays. We, we, you know, we. Everything has to be new.

Do you think that the current poetry suffers as a result of that?

You know, I don't know that it suffers. I think it's just it. It just leaves some things out that used to be more emphasized. I think it's just, you know, it's just a different. Different way to go. You can, you know, and you can still write. I asked an editor who he. I was at conference last month down in Arizona and an editor was. Was talking about, you know, what. How to. How to put together a collection. And he mentioned that rhyming was not, you know, was. Was not popular. And I said, well, does this mean you should Just leave out your rhyming poems. And he said, no, he said, you have to be true to yourself. You have to be honest with, you know, to your own voice. And if that's, you know, if you're. If you're a rhymer, then that's who you are, you know, And. And, you know, Bob Dylan won the Nobel Prize for literature not so long ago. Of course, he cheated. He's got. He's got music as well. So that's. That's. That. That. That helps, definitely.

Yep. Well, I know that you have music at some times as well, and they've written some songs and perform them. So tell us a little bit about that. How does that fit into your creative life?

Well, I was on stage. I. I also performed in musicals and did some singing. And years ago, I met a friend who was a beautiful guitar player, had a tremendous voice, and he pulled together a bunch of his friends for an Irish band. This was 35 years ago or so, and we've been performing together ever since. He passed away, unfortunately, a number of years back, but we. The rest of us have carried on and. And we perform, of course, mostly nowadays around the middle of March, but we do holiday Christmas shows on occasion as well. And while I'm not really a musician, it's. You don't necessarily have to be a musician to write songs. If you know some. Some basic music and you write decent lyrics with the help of some good musicians, you can come up with some passable songs. And of course, they're all centered around Irish topics.

Do they rhyme?

Oh, yeah. Oh, sure. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, that's. That's where rhyme is. Is very much expected. So, yeah, that's. That. That fits right in, actually, with my performing past and my literary aspirations.

When you wrote this song lyrics, did it feel like writing poetry or did it feel different?

Well, that's a good question. No, I would say the process of writing, for me is. There's a joy to it that I think is. Is common to both songwriting and poetry writing. I have a cartoon, an old Peanuts cartoon hanging on my wall. And as you may remember, Snoopy. One of Snoopy's identities was as a writer. He would sit on top of his doghouse with his typewriter, and in this particular cartoon, he's typing away and he types. His girlfriend Edith refused to marry him because he was too fat. That's the first panel. The second panel, he types. A friend said, why don't you go on a diet? You can't have your cake. And Edith, too. And the third Panel, he's doing his. His happy dance. And when he sits back down at the typewriter, he's thinking, it's exciting when you've written something you know is good. And that's sort of my whole philosophy of writing. It's, you know, I do it because it's exciting. It's. You know, I think Roger Waters said once, when you write something you like, your initial thought is, this is good. And he said, and then you never quite feel the same way about it again. You get this rush of. Yeah, I like this. But you never. It's. It's like, you know, just the moment of first love. You never quite get back to that. That rush of excitement again. But. But it's very addictive. And so it's. I. I imagine both processes really are the same. You know, it's the process of creation, which is always exciting.

Yeah. It sounds like you're writing for that moment of joy.

Yes, absolutely. Sure. Yeah, sure.

While I was listening to you, I was thinking about when I talk to poets, and they do often talk about the joy of writing poems and, you know, the epiphanies and all of the good stuff. And then when I talk to novelists, which. I'm a novelist, it's. Yeah, you're writing like two or 300 pages, and then you get that brief bit of joy, and then there's still 100 more pages to write.

Right.

So you get that moment of joy, like, once a year.

Yes. Right. It's. It's. It's a much harder slog if you're. If you're. You know, it's. It's a. It's a sprint in a marathon.

Yeah. Yeah.

You get the runners high in the sprint, but, yeah, you know, it takes a lot longer to get in the marathon.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Something to think about for people who are trying to decide, should I be.

Very true. But I don't think you decide. I think you get. I think you get, you know, you get called.

Yep.

I've never had a particular urge to write a novel, and I kind of hope I never do. Just such a. A lot of effort and time that goes.

Yep. It's definitely a different path.

Although I've worked. I've worked on poems for years, but, you know, and had a couple of poems printed in different versions over, you know, 15 years. But, yeah, not. Not. Not the same processes. Writing War and Peace, for example.

Yeah, for sure. I did want to ask you about another area of your life, working in vineyards. So can you talk a little bit about the work you've done in Northern California?

Well, if. If you hang out in the Napa Valley long enough, you typically wind up working for a winery, because that's really, you know, what goes on here. And I got to work in a couple of tasting rooms. It's a fun job. People come to learn about wine and have a good time. And I like wine and having a good time and, you know, and. And helping people enjoy themselves. So, yeah, it's great fun. It's a great job. And you learn a lot, too. I learned I knew nothing about wine. I grew up in Western Pennsylvania. My grandparents had wine once a year at Christmas, and it was Mogan David, you know, Concord grape. So. So I learned a lot working at a couple of different wineries. And so it's. Yeah, it's. It's a good. It's a good time.

What's something that people don't know about vineyards or wineries?

How hard it is? You know, it's. It's a. It's a very. It's a very laborious process. It's farming here at nature's mercy. Ultimately, you know, so many things can go wrong along the way, and then it's a very tough business. There's. There's. There's. Every distributor carries thousands of wine labels already, and they don't want any more. So I used to tell people, no, don't. Don't go into the winemaking business, make vodka, because it's a lot easier, and you'll have an easier time finding a distributor for it.

Well, there are different trends, right, Where a certain kind will trend, and you can't know how that's going to work, but with vodka, it's always pretty much vodka, right?

That's it, right? Yeah, that's it. You know, you can gussy it up and raise the price. One of the things that people probably don't expect is how much the price of something affects our perception of it. There have been studies done, and this. This study's been done over and over again, where they will pour people. They'll give people blind tastings. They'll pour several different wines. What they tell them are severed. Several different wines, an inexpensive wine, you know, a moderately priced wine and a very expensive wine. And invariably, people will choose the expensive wine, will say the expensive wine is better, when in fact, it's all the same wine. I talked to a guy who studied viticulture at the University of Washington, and he said, yeah, they did that tasting. And out of. I think he said something like 30 students one student said, they all taste the same to me. So we're, we're, you know, very influenced by our perception of quality or what we're told should be our perception of quality.

What about the labels?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, labels, you know, labels are big part of that perception of quality. You know, if a wine is labeled Chateau Lafite 1969, then you expect this to be a fine old wine. And, and wine counterfeiters are very much aware of that. What is, for example, what is a 200 bottle, 200 year old bottle of wine supposed to taste like? Well, nobody knows. So you can, you know, you can make it taste however you like. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a pretty, pretty arcane world once you, you know, delve into. Can get very snooty. And that's the side of it that I don't care for too much. But there are people who have very, very sensitive palates who can distinguish tastes and aromas that certainly are beyond me.

So are you still involved in the wine industry at all?

No, I've, I've left that behind. For one thing, I can't spend eight hours a day on my feet anymore, which is, you know, kind of a requirement if you work in a tasting room. I'm fortunate enough to, to be retired and concentrate on, on writing and with just a little bit of performing a couple of times a year.

Very cool. If people want to find you online, where can they find you?

I do have a website which I neglect quite a bit. Michaelwatersonpoetry.com I'm also on Facebook under my name, Michael Watterson, and on Instagram as well.

Okay.

Michael Waterson, 22 for the year 2022.

Oh, all right. Okay. Well, we'll be sure to include those in the show notes.

Well, thanks.

Yeah, thanks a lot for coming on and talking to us.

Oh, well, thank you for inviting me. It's been a great pleasure.

Beautiful.

Thanks for stopping by the audio town square of the Washington Square Review. Until next time, this has been the Washington Square On-Air from Lansing Community College. To find out more about our writers, community and literary journal, visit lcc.edu/wsl. Writing is messy, but do it anyway.