[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information, myths, and those classic old wives I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 154 of the Science of Motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. Thank you so much for joining me this week. We have got a cracker of an episode. This is actually, I'm going to say it's almost like a little secret mini series that I've been building up.

[00:00:52] Dr Renee White: It's a topic which is generating. A ton of airplay and rightly so. We're going to be talking about menopause and perimenopause today with our guest. And this is, I think I've, this is like one, two, three, definitely three guests in the bank who are going to be talking about different kind of aspects of this topic of perimenopause and menopause for all those playing at home.

[00:01:24] Dr Renee White: I am probably in that kind of a perimenopausal bracket, and so I am very, very interested in this particular topic. And I think it's something that the more I talk about it with friends and family, the more people are kind of, I guess, feeling more confident with discussing the topic, but also I've had some friends who have kind of messaged me or DM'd to me, um, after I've spoken about something on social media about it and gone, Oh my God, I think, I think I am perimenopausal as well, that makes so much sense. I hadn't thought about it like that because I think we all just think menopause, we think sixties, we think we're nowhere near that as, you know, 30, 40 year olds, but we can start to see those symptoms creep up on us.

[00:02:25] Dr Renee White: Um, And many of us don't really understand what those symptoms are and we, we put them in a different basket. So today's guest is going to be sharing a bit of light on that and more from a perspective of nutrition and exercise. But before we jump in to that particular, uh, chat, I just wanted to say a big Merry Christmas.

[00:02:52] Dr Renee White: It's Christmas Eve. You're all probably scrambling around. Hopefully not. Hopefully you are bunkered down with your family and not doing last minute shopping like I typically do. But I just wanted to give a really big shout out and, you know, say to all the new mamas, all the very, very new mamas.

[00:03:18] Dr Renee White: Christmas can be, it can be a show, right? It can be really, really full on. And I just wanted to do a big love shout out to you. It's funny or not funny, actually. We actually get a lot of inquiries around Christmas New Year time for doula support and it's because people are just at their absolute wits end with tons of family around and you would think it would be the opposite because they, you would think, oh they've got family around.

[00:03:52] Dr Renee White: So it's actually easier for some people, it's not for some people. They're just like, Oh man, I've got a newborn and I don't want like a horde of people at my house and or, you know, the lovely, um, judgments and opinions that people have got. So we typically get a lot of inquiries for dual services. If you are one of those people in Tasmania, in Victoria, in New South Wales, and if you need help with your new bubby.

[00:04:24] Dr Renee White: Please feel free to reach out to us, ifillyourcup.com, jump onto the homepage and just scroll down, there's a contact us inquiry form there at the bottom of the page and give us a little shout out. Or if you're really struggling, just send us a DM on Instagram, fillyourcup underscore, and just go this is what I'm dealing with. How do I manage this? And I will definitely, if you haven't listened to the previous episode, which is episode 153, we're sharing some tips about how to manage family and all the overwhelm of Christmas, jump back into that Check in Tuesday episode that could be really, really helpful for you.

[00:05:16] Dr Renee White: All right, without further ado, we are going to start our chat with the lovely Jaymeila Webb. Now I met Jay and I talk about this in the podcast, actual chat. So I'm not going to go too far into it, but I met her at a workshop that was held at my local gym, Art Gym, big shout out. To Eilish and Miscad and Josie out there who just run an amazing, amazing, um, gym.

[00:05:47] Dr Renee White: I absolutely love it, but Jay came out and she was talking about nutrition and essentially, you know, if you are getting to the gym, like how we are to be fueling our bodies correctly so we can get the most out of them. Now, she is just not some random person spouting information, Jay is actually an accredited sports dietitian.

[00:06:13] Dr Renee White: She's also an eating disorder credentialed clinician, and she comes with a ton of experience. She specialises in sports and eating disorders. She works with a variety of clients. She's obviously really, really passionate about everyone developing a safe relationship with food. And even in the chat, um, that she had at the gym, and I talk about this in the podcast interview.

[00:06:39] Dr Renee White: The, this whole thing around carbs, carbs, I think were put into my head as scary things. And just listening to Jay for like an hour, she just like put me at ease. Like it just, it's just changing your mindset. Right. And having someone who has a ton of experience. Um, she's got over eight years of, eight years of experience working with clients.

[00:07:01] Dr Renee White: She also lectures at the University of Tasmania. Um, she's developed infant formulas. She works in public health. She's got it all right. Look, the woman knows what she's talking about. So during her chat at the gym, she kind of touched on, um, perimenopause and menopause and you know, the requirements that we should be having in terms of carbs, protein and the rest of it, and also the type of exercise that we should be doing.

[00:07:30] Dr Renee White: And I found this absolutely fascinating. And I remember sitting there in the crowd going, this woman needs to come on the podcast ASAP. So I'm going to stop blabbing. I am going to introduce Jay, the lovely, accredited sports dietician to talk about menopause and perimenopause. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to the podcast. Jay Webb. How are you today?

[00:07:59] Jaymeila Webb: Hi, I'm good. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

[00:08:02] Dr Renee White: Oh, my pleasure. Now for all those playing at home, uh, Jay and I met, I reckon it's like about a month ago, uh, Jay was invited for a little workshop at my gym. And I'm going to give a big shout out to Art Gym in Hobart, Eilish, Miscad and Josie, especially.

[00:08:24] Dr Renee White: Um, And Jay came in and she was talking to us about nutrition. I think as a biochemist, as someone who is a bit of a gym junkie at the moment, I was very keen to learn more about this because I kind of didn't realise at the time, and I had to have a couple of people say this to me, the way I'm training is very similar to an athlete.

[00:08:46] Dr Renee White: I just thought going to the gym four times a week and pushing my body. I was like, yeah, yeah, same thing. But, um, I was like, oh yeah, I should probably learn how to fuel my body and learn how to recover. And I have to say, Jay, that you, you changed the way I think for a few different reasons. The first one is, um, I actually eat before I go to the gym now, which is amazing.

[00:09:11] Dr Renee White: And I am feeling much, much better. And the second thing, which I love is the fact that you say there's no rules, but if you go with the framework of color, carbs and protein, you are winning. And do you know what? I've started that language at our house and I have a seven year old. And so when we get to the table, we say, what's your color, what's your carb, what's your protein.

[00:09:39] Dr Renee White: Because it's a conversation that it just takes the foot off the gas and the anxiety around are you eating your vegetables? Because clearly that's the color, right? Correct. Yep. And so I just want to say thank you for that because my seven year old has got it in her brain already. She's like, I got my colour mum, I got my carb and I got my protein and I feel like we need to start having these conversations super early, particularly with ladies, um, and our girls and setting the standard for good kind of role modeling and healthy eating. So thank you for that.

[00:10:15] Jaymeila Webb: Well, thank you. You're never overwhelmed and you always have a sense of a guide with autonomy because everybody has their own unique preferences and we're not expected. To all eat exactly the same, if we were, we'd be doing it by now and we're not, aren't we?

[00:10:31] Dr Renee White: Exactly. Yeah. And I think it just, as you say, like it, it takes that, um, pressure off. Like, you know, the other morning I was kind of like, I, oh, I always like to have eggs in the morning, but then I was like, oh, I really don't feel like toast. Um, but I had like a leftover, um, salad I'd made the night before, which was like sweet potato, chickpea, and some spinach. I was like, I'm just going to have that with eggs. And I was like, winning covering carbs and the color in one bag.

[00:10:59] Jaymeila Webb: That was a really delicious and satisfying breakfast.

[00:11:02] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:11:03] Jaymeila Webb: You set yourself up with the pressure of either having something that you didn't want to have, which was eggs on toast. Yeah. You might have suffered through it, but this is where we see people fall. Quote unquote, I'm using air fingers at the minute for those who can't see bandwagon. I hate the term because it makes us feel like we are failing. Like, we aren't motivated, like, it's an intrinsic issue. But actually, if we lean in and listen to what the body feels like, we might be really surprised by what's available to us.

[00:11:33] Jaymeila Webb: What's easy. What feels right. What feels satisfying. And then you can keep doing it for a long time. And if it's on a schedule plan and you're told. You have to eat the sweet potato with the chickpea salad for breakfast with eggs. You're going to be resistant within a week. You're not going to want to do that. No.

[00:11:48] Jaymeila Webb: But it feels like your own choice and what felt right at the time. You've got variety, you've got flexibility. And you're listening to what's easy and available and you come up with an amazing breakfast.

[00:11:59] Dr Renee White: Exactly. It was, I was, yeah, it was actually quite delicious and I was like, yeah, and you're clearing your fridge. Like, there's so much wastage in the world at the moment with food and I'm just like, no, we're clearing the fridge. What are we doing? We're just having, we're having sweet potato salad with, uh, with the eggs this morning. Today's episode, we are diving into something, as I said offline, I'm so cheeky. The majority of guests I get on here, are because I want to know personally and, uh, because I want to know personally, my girlfriends want to know personally and friends and family.

[00:12:30] Dr Renee White: So it is about perimenopause and menopause because we are hitting that stage of our lives. I am the youngest in my friendship group. Yeah. And so I am going to hit the big four zero early next year. Um, so my other friends are, you know, a little further down the trail than I am, and they are starting to experience what they think is perimenopause.

[00:12:56] Dr Renee White: Yes. Um, And we are going to talk about that in the respect of exercise and nutrition, and I guess some myths and misconceptions along the way, because there is so much, I call it fluff on the internet, Jay. That is my PC version of it. Um, so yes, we are going to pick your brain. We are going to extract all your wisdom today about this. But first of all, because I'm a, uh, science nerd. I always love definitions. So let's, let's set the bar. Can you talk us through, yes, perimenopause and menopause. Let's talk about what they are and what the differences are as well.

[00:13:39] Jaymeila Webb: Great question because there are a lot of misconceptions. You kindly call it fluff, I call it bullshit. But um, I don't know if I can say that.

[00:13:49] Dr Renee White: You can absolutely say that.

[00:13:50] Jaymeila Webb: Perfect. Great. Cause. While we live in 2024, and it is amazing how resourceful we have all become as individuals. It is also overwhelming, and I feel like there is too much information out there, but sometimes it becomes really hard to define what's right and what's wrong.

[00:14:09] Jaymeila Webb: We're getting 15 second updates through reels and our algorithms, and we're overwhelmed because they all contradict each other. So we start really doubting where to go for information, and so working with people that are accredited. So, for example, I'm a dietitian, so I'm accredited through Dietitians Australia, and that's an association that I have to stick with.

[00:14:35] Jaymeila Webb: That also means that I can't go outside. The realm of science and what we know, um, that's malpractice. That's not me staying within scope. So today I'm gonna draw on a lot of, um, definitions that we do know a lot of pathways that we do know, but there are going to be things where I will say we just don't know. Unfortunately, that's something that we do know, is that there is a big difference between perimenopause and menopause.

[00:15:03] Jaymeila Webb: We've all heard of what Menopause means the stop, the last cycle, the last bleed for a woman and that happens at a variety of different ages for everyone. We're also uniquely independent and our cycle is exactly the same. So, what stops that last cycle is we no longer have any eggs reserved in our ovaries. And that's what we call the ovarian reserve.

[00:15:31] Jaymeila Webb: So for each woman, we are born with a set amount of eggs. We actually start losing those even when we're, um, babies, like when we're in the uterus, we're starting to lose those eggs. So it will cause a variety of different standpoints for different women. Menopause is the end. It's done. No more eggs. And that's where we then move into the next phase of life, where we need to focus on healthy aging.

[00:15:59] Jaymeila Webb: However, a lot of women that are between the age of about 35, perimenopause can start, between 35 and 40 we have this weird time zone that no one cares about. Literally, and I feel like it feeds into that patriarchal narrative of women are just crazy, women are hormonal, women are unhinged, and we've heard it all with our PMS, we've heard it all, um, after menopause too.

[00:16:28] Jaymeila Webb: They just say that we're old women that are now silent and irrelevant, and we're invisible. But in perimenopause, we are experiencing a lot of signs and symptoms that are starting to tell us that that ovarian reserve is getting close to empty and our hormone profile is changing because of that. In particular, the hormone that is starting to change and we're starting to have less of is estrogen.

[00:16:55] Jaymeila Webb: Now, estrogen is important for releasing the egg out of the ovary. Egg then goes into the uterus, we have this nice lining that keeps it nice and safe and it's a good hospitable environment and then you don't fall pregnant. We shed that lining and that's what causes the bleed. So, without the egg, and without the estrogen to tell the egg to go into the uterus.

[00:17:19] Jaymeila Webb: We don't get the lining. We don't get the bleed, but during perimenopause because those hormone levels are fluctuating, it goes all topsy turvy, so you could go from having an incredibly regular cycle and period to all of a sudden, you've got spotting in between, you might have heavier periods, some women experience them to be heavier, more painful, others see them dwindling, so the cycles might get longer in between, so you might have more days in between the bleeds, but the actual day of bleeding might be shorter. So you might have gone from 7 to 3. A variety of things can happen to the cycle, but that then also causes other symptoms outside of your cycle. So, a lot of women start experiencing things like insomnia.

[00:18:13] Jaymeila Webb: They might be getting hot flushes. They may have brain fog. Brain fog is a really common one that I see with women and 1 that I find that comes through the clinic that women usually suffer from and feel very let down and less than is insulin resistance and, you've probably heard a lot of women in your circles, and I know that the women that I work with and also like my mum's friends, even as a kid, I remember them talking about, you know, oh I'm menopausal. I only look at a bit of lettuce and I've put on weight. I can't even think about eating food without putting on weight. And that's the insulin resistance that women are struggling with during this phase.

[00:18:56] Dr Renee White: Wow. I, yes, 100 percent all the yeses. I was just like, yes, insomnia. I just, you were talking about that brain fog.

[00:19:07] Dr Renee White: It just sparked something in my head because there was a latest research on the changes in brain physiology of women through pregnancy. And so previously, what we knew were, you know, that people were doing like a PET or MRI scans of women in pregnancy and then postpartum, but quite recently, We had a team from the U S and it's the first time they've actually tracked them every two weeks with a single pregnant person. And they did blood work at the same time. And obviously there is this change in physiology and remodeling of the brain and they've captured a few amazing concepts. We're actually going to, um, spoiler alert, uh, we're going to have one of those researchers on the podcast, uh, in the coming weeks, but the brain fog is one of those symptoms of the brain remodeling during matrescence. I wonder if there's something else, if there's another brain remodeling going on. Do you know, like I literally am like, I have no idea about this. Have you heard of any research? Cause that's, I'm going to Google it.

[00:20:16] Jaymeila Webb: Nothing that I've come across. So we've tracked the signs and symptoms of perimenopause and menopause. We know that brain fog is one of the many that is reported by women, but this is one of those places where I need to say we don't know the answer. So we don't know the mechanism. We don't know what's driving and causing it. Yeah, unfortunately, women's health. Oh, our reproductive health is just apparently not worthwhile funding.

[00:20:45] Dr Renee White: It's not it's not sexy science. Someone who has. Um, applied for many, many scientific grants in their lifetime. Um, it's really hard to get it over the line. Like it has to be super, super sexy science. I think when I left and I, it's gone downhill from there, people who were attempting to get. Research funding from government.

[00:21:09] Dr Renee White: I think the strike rate was around 8 to 10%, which is extraordinary. And you know, women's health research is definitely on the, um, outer of that.

[00:21:20] Jaymeila Webb: It's way down, but oh, they'll happily fund for obesity, which I hate the O word. I don't like the O word. But really what we fail to understand quite often is, we don't understand the mechanisms and things that contribute to changes in people's body and their weight and their size. And I get really annoyed at people that are ignorant and say that it's just a choice. Quite often, there's a mechanism working in the back end and that is what I'm experiencing with my perimenopausal clients.

[00:21:51] Jaymeila Webb: These women are at a lack of time. They are desperate by the time they walk into my clinic and they need to be seen and validated. And unfortunately, it's so hard as a clinician to say, I am so sorry, I don't have the science for the answers. But what we can do is what women have been doing for a very bloody long time, looking at the research that is there. And making some jumps, a bit of an assumption, kind of an educated guess, which is where we're sitting with nutrition for perimenopause and menopause. We have an idea based on other hormonal conditions. So, for example, we've got a good understanding of how food and nutrition can support somebody with polycystic ovarian syndrome.

[00:22:35] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:22:36] Jaymeila Webb: What is PCOS and what's pathophysiology. No, estrogen or low estrogen. What happens in perimenopause and menopause? Low estrogen to no estrogen. So really. We can take some of those foundations and those nutrition guidelines and carry them over and we're just trying to see what does work well and what doesn't. But that kind of leads back to your question of, okay, well, what about this brain profiling? I think that's the next step. Absolutely. Because we've always heard baby brain.

[00:23:11] Dr Renee White: Yes,

[00:23:11] Jaymeila Webb: But we've never understood what's actually happening to our neurochemistry and what's occurring. We've all heard of postnatal depression, we know that it's affected by hormone fluctuations. The more that we learn about those pathways and those mechanisms, the more support we can provide, and the less stigma that there is, because there's no explanation. Whereas women that are aging, that are experiencing brain fog and perimenopause, people are quick to jump and just say, oh, you're just getting old, or you're just getting forgetful, or you're just unmotivated.

[00:23:42] Dr Renee White: Oh, like, you know, you chat to people like, it's annoying. Yeah, like, you know, I'm, I'm chatting to my mum about this type of stuff and it's this classic thing of like this misconception over, well, this is just how your life is, you know, from 50 onwards or, or whatever that looks like. So it's, um, it's a really kind of tough, I think, you know, especially the later years of your life, that's a tough gig to kind of just be like, I'll suck eggs on this.

[00:24:14] Dr Renee White: So we've kind of worked out what the definitions are, the common signs and symptoms of those things, and you've kind of alluded to the fact that we don't have enough research, but let's start kind of, you know, spring boarding off stuff that we know about things like PCOS, you know, which I think is a really sensible thing to do until we get all the answers through the research. So based on that, what can you tell us about diet and exercise and how we can, you know, integrate a few useful tips for managing those symptoms?

[00:24:50] Jaymeila Webb: Great question. There are certainly some foods that we can take a look at to help, um, reduce some of those symptoms. Because while these symptoms are common, doesn't mean that they're always normal. We don't always have to suffer through. There's a lot of shame and stigma around hormone replacement therapy. I know that a lot of women are resistant to the idea. Which I fully respect that everybody has their own ideas and beliefs and values when it comes to health care and I'm all about informed choice.

[00:25:21] Jaymeila Webb: So I'm willing to offer as much advice as I can through food and movement. So that maybe we can find some relief in those symptoms, but to help support that, we've also got to look at just keeping you well first. Normally, when I'm working with clients with perimenopause, the drive for the appointment is a fear of their body changing outside of their control.

[00:25:48] Jaymeila Webb: And I see a very large prevalence of eating disorders relapsing or being triggered for the 1st time in this age group, because eating disorders are a coping mechanism. They offer us a sense of control and women are just desperately trying to maintain a small body weight because we've been told that's what makes us valuable.

[00:26:08] Jaymeila Webb: And I think part of my job is encouraging and reminding people that food has a role outside of just manipulating your weight and we try and reframe and focus on the positives and how we can make food work well for us in menopause. And unfortunately, 1 of the biggest ones is you've got to eat more. And this is a baseline piece of advice that I give to a lot of women, a lot of men, and a lot of athletes in particular.

[00:26:40] Jaymeila Webb: We think that being in a calorie deficit is what we need to do to lose weight. Everybody tells us that. But what we forget is that we are a beautifully refined evolutionary being and despite our best efforts, when we under eat we are telling our evolution brain, I call it the caveman brain, but old mate thinks that we're in a bloody ice age or, you know, we're in a famine and history tells us that that means that we're at risk and we're in danger. And so we need to slow down and preserve. And there's this terminology that we use in science, it's called NEAT, which is Non Exercise Activity Thermogenesis, which is random little movements that you would do in the day. So if you're talking with your hands, if you're fidgeting, if you're playing with your pen, if you happen to go for an extra walk around the block just to stretch your legs because you felt like you needed it.

[00:27:35] Jaymeila Webb: That's all NEAT. Now, when we're in a deficit, that winds down, that switches off because we're trying to preserve and it's too expensive to use our precious calories. And so what ends up happening is we also start changing our body composition. So we slow down, we're doing less, we feel tired, we feel so fatigued and foggy all the time.

[00:28:07] Jaymeila Webb: And our little mate, estrogen, and this is where we can draw from what we know from PCOS, is it plays a really important role in maintaining muscle density for women. That is one of its key roles. Yes, it does help stimulate the egg to leave the ovary to go, you know, create a baby and then have a bleed, but it is also doing other jobs for us. And so one of those is maintaining muscle density. Now, muscle is expensive. We're not supposed to store it because it burns calories when we're at rest. And so if you're in a famine, you are not going to maintain all of your muscle density, especially without estrogen now, because it's not going to be fighting hard to keep it there.

[00:28:57] Jaymeila Webb: And then the muscle density goes away, the NEAT goes away, we're not doing the extra. So, we feel really weak. We don't feel very strong. We don't feel very able. Our mood changes because we're hungry. The brain is trying to tell us we are hungry. Yeah. And then we see other symptoms and behaviors coming out like. I'm craving sweet things in the afternoon because it's the body desperately trying to get a quick hit of energy because it thinks it's in famine. It thinks it needs to be prepared to fight. So it's trying to protect you. But what that does is we start storing it because it wants to squirrel away those excess calories.

[00:29:39] Jaymeila Webb: It wants to slow you down so that you're not burning them unnecessarily. So that when the danger comes, we are ready to go. And then once the danger goes, we can go back, right? But we live in 2024. We've put ourselves in that situation that danger's never gonna come.

[00:29:56] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:29:57] Jaymeila Webb: But danger's also never gonna come and go. We've actually gotta tell the body we're okay, we're safe. So that starts with eating more, because classically, and I hope the women listening that are finding themselves in a perimenopausal state or in a menopause, can see how they may have fallen into this trap. And this absolutely is not designed to make anybody feel like they've missed the boat, they've done damage, that it's too little, too late.

[00:30:27] Jaymeila Webb: Women have been told forever, go run, do cardio, eat less, cut out the carbs and when you've done that for decades, you can't take from an empty cup and the women coming through my clinic are eating less than the daily needs of a toddler. We are quite often told to eat 1500 calories, 1200 calories. Now, the average Australian female needs at least 2000 calories a day. That's our standard. That's us not in famine. That's us not being prepared for a bloody ice age. And so when we sit at those low calorie levels for such a long time, the body's trying to preserve. It's doing the best it can to hold on and that's why when we eat or even look at a bit of lettuce we feel like we've put on 10 kilos

[00:31:14] Dr Renee White: That makes so much sense though. So it does, right? Like when you explain it like that, you're like, yeah, that's, that's exactly right. And everything from the, you know, the social stigmas that we put on ourselves and things like that. I'm, I'm curious to know. So. When you say, you know, and again, are we going back to, let's go to 2000 calories a day and are there certain foods that we should be thinking about putting on our plate or are we going with our classic colour carb protein again?

[00:31:50] Jaymeila Webb: I'm so glad you asked. I am going to blow your mind. Definitely

[00:31:54] Dr Renee White: Get your pens and paper ladies.

[00:31:59] Jaymeila Webb: This is some free advice and it saves you coming to see me, but it will come back to carbs, protein and color, but I'll explain why. For this stage in your life, which is usually my role, it's not always telling you what to eat. It's describing why and how to suit your circumstances. So, for perimenopause and menopause. Classic number one, please stop fasting. Don't fast. It is cripplingly impossible to eat your protein requirements for perimenopause, if you are not eating consistently and regularly throughout the day. You're also going to be making your brain fog worse, your mood regulation, your emotional regulation relies on you having a consistent source of carbohydrate dribbling in.

[00:32:46] Jaymeila Webb: It's how we stay sane and stable. And so when women are fasting to try and reduce their calorie intake, again, we've created the famine mindset. I also say that then triggering things like binge eating. At the end of the day, so quite often we'll skip breakfast. We won't have a snack. It's usually coffee. Then are really good, and we only eat salad with a little bit of chicken or sometimes it might have an egg. That's lunch. And then we don't understand why at 3 o'clock we've gone and opened up a big old bag of biscuits and we can't stop. And then we're too full. We don't have room for dinner and then we're hungry again before we go to bed and we have another little sweet snack. Yes. Classic menopause intake.

[00:33:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:33:34] Jaymeila Webb: Whereas undereating leads to overeating and if we're overeating on those fun foods, and I call them fun foods because we do need them, yeah. I certainly don't cut them out. But if we're eating them in excess and in. And in place of other nutritious foods, that's when we can also find another reason for stacking on the weight and struggling with that insulin resistance.

[00:33:57] Jaymeila Webb: Because typically women with perimenopause that central weight. We call it central adiposity to be sciency, but you know, that round belly that we get as we age. That is a sign of insulin resistance, and it's really stubborn. It's really hard. Move it. No, you can't do an exercise or eat a particular food to target that specific area, but we can help stabilize your insulin levels.

[00:34:24] Jaymeila Webb: So, as we get older, the pancreas wears out. We can't help it. It's like a car that's been flogged for years. And so we've got to give it a little bit of support and we don't know the mechanism yet, but we also have this feeling that estrogen somehow plays into supporting that insulin strength and its ability to communicate effectively. That's what insulin resistance is. It's basically weakened insulin that just can't respond the way that it once did. And so we've got to give it a little hand up and sprinkling carbohydrate in throughout the day, not in a big load. Allows the body to go, okay, cool. I'm not overwhelmed. I can manage this, get this stored away and. Is insulin resistance. It's a catch 22. When the insulin isn't talking, we then have high blood sugar levels from the carbohydrate and that's not to make you all freak out about having carbs. This is not a low carbohydrate diet. This is actually encouraging you to include them, but just in a way that helps the insulin and when insulin can't talk very well, that sugar stays high.

[00:35:34] Jaymeila Webb: And then the body goes, oh, dear, well, we must have a lot of carbohydrate let's flood it with all this insulin. And so we have this huge response and it goes, oh, well, now we've got all this insulin, but we've only got so much carbohydrate and the insulin's not working and talking very effectively to the muscle cell anymore. So it thinks that the carbohydrates have all been stored into the muscles and that they're full. So whatever's left in the blood then gets stored as extra and excess as fat. That's how it's supposed to work. Yet, the trouble is the muscles are empty, because the insulin is not doing its job of dragging it into that muscle cell. And so. Anybody that knows what it feels like to have a low carbohydrate diet, you feel sluggish, slow, no energy, right?

[00:36:28] Dr Renee White: I did that. I did that. Uh, what was it 12 years ago? I think I spoke to you at the workshop about it. It's not pleasant.

[00:36:37] Jaymeila Webb: No, no. And that's what insulin resistance is doing, which is why women slow down. We're exhausted. We don't have the energy to go and exercise because the muscles are empty because the insulin getting confused and then storing it as that. So my best advice is bring it back to, eating enough so that you can maintain, if not increase your muscle density, we have to eat enough protein to do that.

[00:37:04] Jaymeila Webb: Women typically don't eat a lot of protein. We actually don't. And this is my personal dietitian clinical reasoning with protein. I actually go for a really high protein range. So Genpop is, you know, classic people just walking down the street. We'd normally say you need about 0.8 to 1 gram of protein per kilogram of your body weight every day.

[00:37:31] Jaymeila Webb: So, for example, if you're 70 kilos, you'd need 70 grams of protein every day. That's genpop. We're aging. We're losing our muscle density. So I actually treat PCOS and perimenopause and menopause like my athlete population. And that's got a broad sweeping protein guideline, which is anywhere from 1.2 to 2 grams per kilogram of body weight. And I encourage my women to go further up. The tree and for that 1.8 to 2, so that we can maintain as much of that muscle density as possible. So that 70 kilo client has just gone from 70 grams a day. That they needed up to 140. That is a lot of protein, which gives you the permission to eat because if you don't, you cannot reach that target.

[00:38:26] Jaymeila Webb: If you don't match that with carbohydrate, we're not stabilizing those sugars throughout the day. We're not supporting the insulin resistance. We're dropping those levels really, really low so that when we have carbohydrate, we have a big spike and a big response and worse if we're binging in the afternoon on the biccies and the chocolate and the chippies, because that's what we feel like we need huge insulin spike. Yeah, so we're kind of our own worst enemies by trying to promote diet culture advice.

[00:38:59] Dr Renee White: Yeah, that's so, so interesting. And so with that, with the clients that you support and when you know you see that change in protein and that, I like that, sprinkle your carbs through the day. I like that concept. I'm a visual person, so I'm just like, yeah, sprinkle those through.

[00:39:18] Dr Renee White: What do you see? Do you actually see people maintaining or losing weight, like what's the, I'm just trying to convey to the listeners that, you know, what you're seeing in your clinic, because I can tell you that there are probably some people thinking, holy moly, like the psychological warfare for me to, overcome and to manage this in my brain to eat more, to eat 140 grams of protein. What are the effects that you're seeing with your clients in the clinic?

[00:39:53] Jaymeila Webb: Such a good question. It takes an hour for me to talk them off the ledge.

[00:39:59] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:40:00] Jaymeila Webb: In that first appointment.

[00:40:01] Dr Renee White: That doesn't surprise me at all. No,

[00:40:03] Jaymeila Webb: it's scary. It is bloody terrifying actually and I call it mental gymnastics. Yes, I say you come out of my sessions and it feels like you've been brain f**cked. Like, quite literally everything that you've been told, we're not going to go and put you in the deep end and do the total opposite, right? Yeah, and it's overwhelming. It's a lot. I imagine there is some women listening in right now, and their heart rate is elevated, their breathing heavier, hands are a little bit sweaty, and they think, holy crap, how can I go about this?

[00:40:34] Jaymeila Webb: Yeah, eating more is only one part of it. We also need to exercise. And we know that running miles isn't it anymore. We have got to do resistance exercise that means that we are pushing against resistant weight, whether that's body weight, whether that's external weight. So, reform of Pilates, you're lifting quite literally barbells and weights.

[00:41:00] Jaymeila Webb: Don't be afraid of it. And if you are unsure of how to go about that, go reach out to either an exercise physiologist at physiotherapy, um, like a physiotherapist. They'll also guide you in a credentialed way, but there are some great PTs that are out there too. Yeah, so we've got lots of different, um, avenues that we can go and reach out to, to start switching up the type of exercise because the first question I get is. Well, I'm going to gain weight. I'm eating 1200 calories. You now want me to eat like 2000 calories. I'm going to gain weight. So I do hot girl math with my clients and I ask them how many calories above your everyday intake do you need to eat to put on one kilogram of body fat? It is 7700 calories.

[00:41:48] Jaymeila Webb: Now the average Australian female needs 2000 calories. That's all I'm asking you to maintenance. We're going to start there and we'll tweak and we'll refine and we'll make it specific to you over time. But let's start there. Let's get your body out of caveman brain.

[00:42:05] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

[00:42:06] Jaymeila Webb: Bring me back from the ice age. Do a re-feed. See where your body comes to. Quite often, I will see them walk back in the door in 4 weeks time, and they're astounded.

[00:42:17] Dr Renee White: I was going to say, how long does it take to see that effect?

[00:42:21] Jaymeila Webb: They will start feeling better almost immediately. And in a few weeks under their belt, they know it's not just a placebo effect or, you know, Accident by chance. Oh, I happen to start this new supplement as well at the same time. And I feel amazing. Yeah, we'd like to give them about 4 to 6 weeks. And we start to see muscle density starting to increase. They feel stronger. They see after about 8 weeks. Their body composition change, so we start losing the body fat stores. And we start to see the muscle density return.

[00:42:59] Jaymeila Webb: Quite often It's common for women to lose a little bit of weight, but not as much as they thought that they needed to. So they quite often come in with a target and they'll be like, I need to lose 5 kilos, 10 kilos. That's what I was. That was my weight when I was 26. And now we're 56 now. Park that. Park that. That's a nice memory.

[00:43:22] Jaymeila Webb: And it's a reminder that our bodies change throughout life. Yeah, I'm going to get comfortable with that change, but I would say to you too, Renee. If you weighed the exact same weight that you weighed right now, but you had just lean muscle tone and no body fat, would you care about the number on the scale?

[00:43:42] Jaymeila Webb: No, no, so that's not what we're trying to achieve. We're not trying to achieve weight loss with perimenopause and menopause food changes. I could starve you again, drop you down, put your body back into shock. Sure, we could lose weight, but you won't keep it off either.

[00:43:57] Dr Renee White: Yeah, exactly.

[00:43:59] Jaymeila Webb: What we're trying to do is we're trying to restore your muscle density to get that furnace, get your metabolism back, burning energy at rest. But more importantly, shifting that body composition because we know that muscle density is protective. It's good for our heart health. It's good for our brain health. And no brainer, it's perfect leading into aging. We know that a higher body weight as you age is actually protective. We see that a higher BMI actually improves your life expectancy and outcomes when you're an older person, which is 65 years and over.

[00:44:38] Jaymeila Webb: Yeah, so first of all, don't ever listen to the BMI anyway at an individual level. It's only going to be used at a population level, but yeah. We recommend 27 on the BMI up and over for an older person, because that's actually their safety range. But it's not just about being in a large body. It's about having muscle density because with age, it's really common to be frail and weak.

[00:45:01] Jaymeila Webb: Think of your grandma. Think of your friend's grandma, your partner's grandma, all frail and weak. It's common, but it's not normal. And so, as you age, you may as well start working on it now because the recommendation is start doing resistance exercise to build your bone density and your muscle density so that you are stable on your feet so that you've got independence so that you can walk and move, get yourself off the couch so that you don't fall over and then break your hip because you've got brittle bones.

[00:45:37] Jaymeila Webb: And we recommend high energy, high protein diets for older people. What am I recommending my perimenopausal women do? Increase their energy, increase their protein. High energy, high protein. So, you can be resistant now. Fine. That's okay. I understand that. Everybody's at a different stage of change. But at some point, we're going to have to address it and if you start now. Aging will look healthier. You will be independent at home for longer. You'll have a stronger immune system and you're not likely going to end up in a hospital or residential facility. Earlier than necessary, right?

[00:46:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah, that's the thing. Like, I keep coming back to this and I think, you know, I feel like I've come from good stock, you know, my great grandma, she, she survived to 96, you know, and yeah, it was like, I just don't think they built them like they used to, but, you know, that's a conversation, but I, I mean, I am definitely one of those people who's, you know, grappled with physical appearance and fitness and things like that.

[00:46:42] Dr Renee White: But I think as I, as I get older, one of the things that I kind of just keep coming back to is quality of life. Like I can look like whatever, and it's something that I have had to accept. Um, you know, really kind of, as you say, that mental gymnastics of my body changing from maiden to mother, like my body does not look like it used to look like.

[00:47:09] Dr Renee White: And that's okay because now I can put on my CV that I made eyeballs and fingers, right? So that's fine. But I think at the end of the day, I really think we need to take a little bit of a check and go, What is the quality of life that we want for ourselves later on when we're retired and we're supposed to be enjoying ourselves in the later years of our life?

[00:47:33] Dr Renee White: We don't, well, I personally don't, I don't want to be, you know, complaining about not being able to pick stuff up on the ground or, you know, Hopefully I will have grandchildren and I'll be able to enjoy those. I want to be able to like pick them up and run around in a park and things like that. I can't see it being enjoyable, having sore hips, feeling like the only thing I can eat is a salad and half a grapefruit. You know what I mean? Correct. There's nothing appealing about that to me.

[00:48:08] Jaymeila Webb: No, no, no, no. Look, if I can't eat food that I bloody love when I'm 90, Yes. You know, like, because if I can't do it then when can I? Well, exactly. What have I gotten out of life, you know?

[00:48:21] Dr Renee White: My, my great grandma, she is famous for the one who lived to 96. She used to eat dripping on toast for breakfast. Like that was her jam. And she always had a bowl of chocolates or whatever. But that woman, She refused to go to a nursing home, but she lived independently by herself. She walked every single day. She was in the garden, you know, she was doing her own version of resistance training and she was definitely on some high fuel diet with a dripping on toast. I can tell you right now.

[00:49:00] Jaymeila Webb: But you'd be amazed. I work with older people in one of my other roles and our job quite literally is to keep older people at home for longer with quality of life and independence. We are trying to give people that regain back and when you see older people, not living out a quality of life, they've lost all of their independence.

[00:49:21] Jaymeila Webb: And you can say that if you can get some food into them. Bit of gardening as resistance. Then their quality of life turns around. We have this wanky term, it's called re-ablement. So you lost the ability, you weren't able, and now we've supported you to bring that back, and we've re-abled. I see the same as the perimenopause and menopausal women. What are you trying to seek with being in a smaller body? Quite often, it is being validated, feeling relevant, and we think that it's going to lead to happiness. But even when you were in your smallest body, when you were younger, did you feel really happy? The end of the day, the thing that actually makes us happy is quality of life and being independent and being able to make those choices for ourselves.

[00:50:17] Jaymeila Webb: So being in a smaller body right now, in this phase of life, it's going to rob you of that choice later on. And I'd much rather look back when I'm 80 years old and count my memories. Not my calories.

[00:50:30] Dr Renee White: Yeah. 100%. Oh my God. I couldn't have said that better. Jay, I knew we were going to run out of, um, topic of time before topics, but we are going to have you back for a second podcast as well, where we're going to talk about, uh, specifically nutrition for new mums, which is, I'm so excited for that one.

[00:50:49] Jaymeila Webb: Great, good, I'm excited about that too.

[00:50:51] Dr Renee White: Yes, we're going to dive into our rapid fire, um, very, very quickly. Um, and I'm going to mod this. I always mod this based on the topic. So, our first question is, what is your top tip for mothers? And I'm going to throw in who are currently experiencing perimenopause.

[00:51:10] Jaymeila Webb: Love that. It's okay if you feel overwhelmed right now. That's normal with any major change in your life, you are going to experience overwhelm because we've not navigated this before. And that's why I always lean into carb protein color. If you're feeling overwhelmed with life and deciding on food feels like too much.

[00:51:33] Jaymeila Webb: Or there's a pressure to change the way that your body looks or feels because, you know, societal expectations of what a mother should look like or what somebody should look like as they're aging. Put that to the side. We can come back to that if we need to. But right now to help you gather yourself, just pick one food that has a bit of protein, one food that has a bit of carbohydrate, and one food that has a bit of color in it, whether that be fruit or vegetables.

[00:51:59] Jaymeila Webb: They don't have to go together. There are no rules. It's okay if it's a mishmash. Picnic plate, go for it. Literally, literally. We had an eye fillet, with, like, a little ramekin bowl, um, with blueberries and strawberries in it, like, on the main plate the other night. And, um, because I came home, I was overwhelmed.

[00:52:19] Jaymeila Webb: I was completely overstimulated. I have ADHD and food decisions sometimes even wear me down. And I know if I pick 1 thing at a time, even if they don't go together, I can make a meal and I can be happy that that's been nourishing and supported me. It's made sense to me. So. Yeah. And I feel it. I just had this massive overwhelm about do I cook potato?

[00:52:41] Jaymeila Webb: It's going to take too long. Do I do vegetables? I don't feel like steamed, but that's the quick one. I want rice. That doesn't seem right. And I went, Jay, it's okay. Pick one. And I went, alright, eye fillet protein. Done. I ended up going to the fridge and we had this new punnet of blueberries and the new punnet was strawberries. And I was like, shit yeah, that looks so good. And I was like, we have noise. That's color. But in my brain, I was like, I can't put those on the plate with the steak cause it's juicy. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:11] Dr Renee White: So ramekin it up.

[00:53:13] Jaymeila Webb: So we got this big name of like one sad steak. And a bowl of berries anyway, so that's hilarious. And then I was like, shit, I don't have any carb. I don't want to make potato. Rice doesn't go with this. This is weird. What are we going to do? And we had this, we had a bag of like, just bread roll buns for lunch the next day. Oh, yeah. I was like, oh God bread roll but then I was like, I can't just put that on the plate. So I went to this cool effort of cutting up fingers on the bread rolls. I buttered them. I put them in this other bowl, like, like bread sticks, kind of. Shoved it in the middle of the table and handed a steak with a bowl of fruit to my partner, I was like, Dinner is served.

[00:53:56] Dr Renee White: I love that.

[00:53:58] Jaymeila Webb: And look, no one's getting morbidly obese from eating, I fillet steak, some berries, and a couple of pieces of bread.

[00:54:04] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

[00:54:04] Jaymeila Webb: It's not going to happen, right? But we were fed, we were nourished, no one was overwhelmed, no one died. And in fact, it was actually delicious, but we're like, this should become a staple.

[00:54:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah, we're going to put that on the board. Yeah.

[00:54:16] Jaymeila Webb: Yeah, that one's on the board.

[00:54:17] Dr Renee White: I love that. Do you have a go to resource for women experiencing perimenopause or menopause? It could be a book, a workshop, I don't know, anything.

[00:54:31] Jaymeila Webb: There are some great other podcasts that are out. There are some women specific GPs that I would totally recommend and send you to. My go to, I'm based in Tassie, here in Tassie, I love promoting local where I can. We are so incredibly lucky we've got the bubble, which is a women's only health clinic.

[00:54:53] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

[00:54:54] Jaymeila Webb: Those GPs are your go to. Of course, the science is a bit limited and we do have some good research coming out of Australia at the moment and I'm going to butcher it, but it's basically. Come on, brain work, the research center for Women's Health, reproductive Health. I'll find it. I'll find it and we can add

[00:55:17] Dr Renee White: Yeah, put it in the show notes.

[00:55:18] Jaymeila Webb: Yeah. Um, amazing evidence based for what we've got um, so far. But if you are needing to talk to somebody and you want to make sure that it's evidence based, head down to the bubble. There's a clinic in Launceston, there's a clinic in Hobart too.

[00:55:33] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:55:34] Jaymeila Webb: They are your go to guide. Yeah.

[00:55:36] Dr Renee White: I'm going to give another shout out, keeping things local. If you're in Victoria, because I've actually just sent my mum to this place because my mum's in Vic, head to the Juno specialist. They're in Richmond and Dr Lucy Ryan is your go to menopause, perimenopause specialist there. She has done some great training. I'm just looking on their website now. They've got specific training in perimenopause, menopause support, including Australian Menopause Society training and regular education and conference attendance. Back to the whole thing of like, we just need people who know what the hell they're talking about, right? So don't get your information off a reel. Because how are you going to fact check that? Like, the crap that's on the internet is terrifying. Absolutely terrifying.

[00:56:27] Jaymeila Webb: You've you've prompted my brain it's the Australian Menopause Society.

[00:56:31] Dr Renee White: Oh, okay. I was like, where is my brain going? Here we go. We're just working together as the dream team.

[00:56:38] Jaymeila Webb: We are the dream team, but that is a great place. Full of resources, evidence based, fact checked, not dumb reels. And I get the desperation and the want and the need and the hunger for this information. I hate that we're in this gap where we don't have all the answers.

[00:56:58] Jaymeila Webb: And I hope for the generations to come that there isn't. Obviously a need, but that gets recognised and we start closing some of those gaps for womens health, but in the meantime, there will be information out there. From someone who may have found something that worked for them, but that doesn't mean that it's backed by science or backed by evidence.

[00:57:21] Jaymeila Webb: And it's not to say that those things can't work. It's just that we don't know. Yeah. And I find it really good advice to protect yourself by asking yourself 1 question is person that's recommending this thing. Are they monetizing it? Usually, they're trying to sell you a pill, a powder, a vitamin mineral, something along the lines.

[00:57:46] Jaymeila Webb: And they say it was game changing. It was perfect for me. It was wonderful. I fixed all my problems with this 1 bloody tablet. Go with curiosity. Follow your instinct and see if there's money at the end of the rainbow, because likely, I don't want you to get caught up in a scam. And I don't want people putting all their hope on something that isn't proven.

[00:58:10] Jaymeila Webb: If you do find something that works for you, that is against the grain, great. I'm so glad that you found that. I'm not against complete woo woo, but I'm against woo woo for making somebody's bank account bigger.

[00:58:23] Dr Renee White: Yes. 100%. 100%. Our last question, which we always ask our guests, and we borrow this one from the lovely Brené Brown.

[00:58:33] Jaymeila Webb: Oh my god, I die. Isn't she wonderful?

[00:58:35] Dr Renee White: What do you keep on your bedside table?

[00:58:38] Jaymeila Webb: Do you know what? This is such a good question. And it is so bloody relevant, which I am so, I'm actually so happy about it. So I, I didn't share this at the start of the podcast, but. Maybe not. I haven't gone into menopause, but I'm one of the very few women in the world that have premature ovarian insufficiency. So, my egg reserve has dried up. I still have estrogen to a degree, but I do sometimes experience some of these perimenopausal um, symptoms and one of mine is vaginal dryness and we do not talk about this enough.

[00:59:19] Dr Renee White: Yes, we need to talk about that because that is a topic that has come up within the friendship group. Yes,

[00:59:25] Jaymeila Webb: yes, yes. And, you know, it's always, it's always, you know, over a coffee. Yeah, like, oh,

[00:59:30] Dr Renee White: oh, it's just, it's just something that you have to deal with. I'm going to call bullshit on that. It's not true at all.

[00:59:37] Jaymeila Webb: Thank you. This is a beautiful plug to the girls at the bubble. They put me onto a lubricant that's completely natural. It has no chemicals, nothing in it, and it's just made them bees wax. And again, I'll send the links, but if anybody else is, um, interested, it's the best lubricant. Yeah, that has not caused any irritation. It doesn't sting, it hasn't been painful. And it's actually just created a really nice environment for me that I can move through the day and yeah, that is on the bedside table. That is because, you know, you need easy access and the right times and lights come off, but yeah, she's, she's consistent. She's a regular.

[01:00:18] Dr Renee White: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that because yes, it is definitely one of those topics where people like, Oh my god, is this something that's only happening to me?

[01:00:29] Dr Renee White: And then once you actually are brave enough to talk about it, because we just don't talk about women's health enough, um, that you kind of realise that you're not the only lady in the room who is experiencing this at all. Um, Okay, Jay, where can we find you? I'm so sure there's going to be people who are listening right now going, okay, I need to know all the information.

[01:00:55] Dr Renee White: Give me everything. How can we book in with you? Um, where do we find you on social media? Tell us all the things.

[01:01:02] Jaymeila Webb: Okay, so my company is called Eat Nutrition. Pretty simple, pretty straightforward. Can't miss me. Um, on Facebook, it is as simple as that. Eat Nutrition, type it in, you'll find me. Um, on Instagram, my handle is eatnutrition, all one word, underscore Tas.

[01:01:20] Jaymeila Webb: Apparently the word Eat Nutrition is quite popular, so you can count some of the bots there. Um, but my website also is www. eatnutrition. com. au. There you can find my online booking calendar. I see clients Australia wide and internationally. So, um, there is a calendar for coming and seeing me in person. If you're local to Tassie, I have people fly down if they're interested and eager. But otherwise, we can totally connect online just on a telehealth call and you can book through either calendar depending on where you're based.

[01:01:56] Dr Renee White: That is amazing. Thank you so much for today. I've learned so much and also I'm so glad that we can give oxygen to this and I'm just so hoping that people have listened and started to take on board perhaps some of the changes they might be curious about experimenting with, and I know it can be scary about, you know, shifting the mindset of what has been shoved down our throats for so long as women here in, you know, on planet earth.

[01:02:30] Dr Renee White: But, you know, please take stock. If you're curious, if you want to know more, if you want a bit of handholding, please feel free to reach out to Jay. She's amazing. As I said, I had one workshop with her. It wasn't even one on one it was in a group and I was just like this woman has just blown my mind and also I think the thing that I really liked is that in that workshop, it was like you were giving me permission to go, actually there's a better way of doing this.

[01:03:01] Dr Renee White: And I'm like, Oh, that actually might make me feel better. And I want to feel better. And it is, it's about wellbeing and mental health and things like that. And so you just need to like be brave and put your I guess preconceptions to the side for a second and go, maybe there's a better way of doing this. So thank you so much for sharing that and being so generous with your time as well.

[01:03:26] Jaymeila Webb: My pleasure. And for anybody that's scared to rip the bandaid off and do the mental gymnastics and give this a go. I always say, you can go back and always just go back to what you're doing, whatever it is that you're doing right now. You can come back to it. We try it. If it works, great, if it didn't, that's fine because we don't put this, we put this as the default, right?

[01:03:47] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[01:03:48] Jaymeila Webb: What's the definition of insanity?

[01:03:50] Dr Renee White: Yes,

[01:03:51] Jaymeila Webb: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Yeah, if you're looking for a different outcome, whatever it is that you're doing right now isn't working and it's worked for you for years, but for some reason right now, it just doesn't seem to stick.

[01:04:05] Jaymeila Webb: It's not a lack of trying, it's not a lack of discipline. It's not a lack of motivation. It's nothing intrinsically that's an issue. Guaranteed. You are working your ass off trying to make this change not happen. Maybe we just gotta try a different approach and

[01:04:20] Dr Renee White: yeah,

[01:04:20] Jaymeila Webb: give it a go.

[01:04:22] Dr Renee White: Amazing. Thank you so much.

[01:04:24] Dr Renee White: Alright everyone. I'll see you next week. Bye. If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well. You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood, proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village.

[01:04:53] Dr Renee White: Head to our website ifillyourcup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings, where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself. Ensuring you feel nurtured, informed and empowered so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence.

[01:05:12] Dr Renee White: Until next time, bye!