All right, everyone.

Welcome to another episode of the Mindful Builder podcast.

as always, I'm joined by my good friend, Matthew Carlin.

How are you, mate?

Yo, how are you?

Very well, thank you.

I've got a few statistics.

I'm going to throw out everybody before we get going.

they may seem a little bit confronting, but I'm going to read it anyway, because we feel that's something that needs to be talked about.

42.

9 percent of people aged 16 to 85 years of age have experienced a mental disorder at some point in their lives.

21.

5 percent of people had a 12 month mental disorder with anxiety.

being the most common group.

38.

8 percent of people aged 16 to 24 years of age had a 12 month mental disorder.

Today we are going to be talking about anxiety, but of course Matt and I are in no position to offer advice,

about anxiety, but we have my very good friend Julie Mounter, who is a psychologist, to talk to us about anxiety.

and to maybe help us through, maybe our own personal, issues with mental health, but maybe even give us

some tips, that we can hand on to staff members or people in our life, if we notice a change in behavior.

Julie, thank you so much for joining us again today.

Welcome.

Hi, it's a delight to be here.

What is anxiety?

I think if we kind of take a step back and think about worry and anxiety is a normal experience for.

all of us.

Um, it starts to move into, the realm of anxiety when the worry and and the stress starts to become excessive.

When it sort of feels like it's uncontrollable.

I sometimes talk to people about the experience of it being like whack a mole sort of, I don't know if you remember that game where the mole kind of pops up.

There's a usual stress or anxiety is in response to an actual threat or an actual situation.

And then once that subsides, then in theory, the anxiety and the worry should go away.

When we start to move into generalized anxiety, the worry just continues to shift.

So you whack down one mole, pops up another one, whack down one mole, pops up another one.

We notice things like Intrusive thoughts and what we mean by that is that the thought is really bothersome.

So it comes in all the time It's really regular you want to try and push it out, but you can't do that The thoughts feel hard to control.

They're often very repetitive in nature There's a persistent nature to the thoughts, and it starts to cause distress or impairs you across different, realms in your life.

So it goes across things like health, like work, interpersonal relationships, finances and so on.

So, um, when we start to talk about generalized anxiety disorder, it's that persistent worry.

It's usually future based and it's an ongoing, worry in the absence of, real threat.

And is it something that like, takes a while to recognise?

Or is it something that you might not be aware that you might have it, and you kind of just don't know about it?

absolutely.

there's a lot of what we call, um, and we're going to talk a little bit about sort of, um, the behaviors that you might experience and the thoughts and the feelings, like the sensations that you experience.

Another thing that happens with anxiety or generalized anxiety disorders.

What we call positive beliefs surrounding anxiety.

So for some people, they might think that worry keeps me focused, or if I don't worry about the thing, then I might forget it.

Or worrying means that I care, or there are these positive beliefs around, what worrying might be.

I heard somebody describe it the other day, When they understood that what was happening for them was anxiety, it was actually, they thought they were being polite, so always

worrying about another person, worrying about how things were going, being very overly concerned about somebody else's well being, that can start to move into worry, into anxiety.

So, often I've sat across from someone who has, after taking a thorough history and getting a lot of information and some family history as well, explain

to the person that what they're actually experiencing is, Anxiety as opposed to, you know, regular worry or concern in response to big life events.

So how do we differentiate between those big life events to anxiety?

Like, where do we start looking at that?

So going back to those, elements of it being excessive, feeling uncontrollable.

It's something that tends to be there all of the time or very regularly.

and it goes across a number of domains.

So let's say like if we, if we take your example, the two of you are running, you know, construction companies, you absolutely have real world, real time stressors.

Yep.

And so we would say.

In response to, you know, something goes wrong on a job, absolutely, you would worry about it when that goes away.

So when that problem has been solved, if that worry then sort of switches off to yet another problem across multiple life domains.

That's when we might start to think about, okay, are we, are we moving into that generalized anxiety disorder area?

don't keep it a secret that I've been seeing a psychologist for over 10 years, uh, and my original diagnosis was generalized anxiety, anxiety disorder.

And I think one of the things that really helped me understand what you were just talking about there, Julie, was if you kind of draw a bell curve.

with, you know, not much anxiety.

and this is probably speaks more for me.

If I don't have pressures or I don't have anxiety, I don't feel super motivated.

So there's this nice kind of sweet spot at the top of the bell curve where I operate quite optimally.

So, you know, there's a bit of stress, there's a bit of anxiety there, but it's when you tip over the other side of it and you're sliding down the other side where, you feel this, overwhelming

sense of not being able to keep on top of all the moles that keep popping up, to use your description before, that I know for me wasn't healthy and I found it actually quite debilitating.

like, I know for me, the signs do tend to manifest themselves physically.

So I do get, some tightness in my arms and in my chest.

what are some of the other symptoms or signs that you may, or we, or others may be experiencing anxiety?

common things that people might experience, so that chronic worries, though the worry is running through their

head and like over and over and over again, like a broken record, it sort of, it's that uncontrollable anxiety.

So sometimes

people,

if situation sort of

yeah, absolutely.

Anxiety is very future based.

So we often talk about it's worrying about what's going to happen in the future.

When we come to talk about depression, very often it's past based worries or past based rumination.

and obviously we don't just take sort of one element.

It's sort of this whole suite of things that we put together in order to come up with this diagnosis.

another thing that, is really commonly experienced is really hating uncertainty.

So we find that, just generally most of us, have some level of discomfort around uncertainty when we're shifting into a generalized anxiety space.

There's a real intense discomfort about what's going to happen in the future.

The experience of not knowing what's going to happen can be really difficult to run with.

, Feeling restless, sort of keyed up on edge.

There can be an edginess, in physicality.

We can actually feel physically tense.

We might feel descriptors like feeling nervy, uptight, having tightness or stiffness in your muscles and your body.

we'll often see sleep disturbance.

a classic, would be having trouble falling asleep, so somebody might lie in bed, the outside stimulation goes down, so it's quiet, and that's when the worries start to really kick in.

That's a really common, scenario.

Sometimes people have trouble maintaining their sleep, so they might get to sleep, and then they might wake up during the night, and start to worry, because their mind's constantly ticking over.

We see things like problems concentrating or focusing on a task at work.

procrastination is another thing that we sometimes see with generalized anxiety disorder.

And avoidance is a really common one.

so sometimes people will start to avoid situations or scenarios where they worry or get anxious or nervous.

So that's kind of, a number of the flavors that we have.

We can talk a bit about physical stuff too.

But, you don't have all of these, it's sort of a combination, everyone's different, everyone has sort of different experiences, is that correct?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I think that's the challenge that that's why it's really important to talk to somebody who's able to take you through a really clear

history and take you through what we would call a diagnostic interview, which sounds like a chat from the person sitting on the other side.

And we're gathering all of this information, to see if somebody fits that what we call the diagnostic criteria for anxiety.

What generalized anxiety disorder, but you're exactly right, Matt.

It can come in various forms and it can shift a little bit depending on where somebody is, uh, how their general health's going, what's going on with other life stressors.

Yeah.

One thing I was just going to jump in and say, I'm happy to speak from my experience on this, because I think it helps.

I've experienced.

every single one of those before, but not at the same time.

So, you know, one period, I might be having trouble getting to sleep.

Another period, I might fall asleep, but then wake up and not be able to get back to sleep.

So it's not one or the other, or all of them at the same time.

They can shift and change, Depending on what the thing is that I'm being anxious about.

Before you ran a business, did you identify yourself as being someone that suffered from anxiety, or has business brought this on?

You know what?

This is something that I've thought about a lot.

And also, you know, with my recent diagnosis of ADHD, because, you know, up until a point it wasn't a quote unquote official.

But if you actually unpack my history.

It's everywhere.

ADHD is everywhere from my earliest memories.

And I think about anxiety, I can probably pinpoint it to a particular point in time.

when I was, I'd say, I'd just changed schools, I was in year four.

And going into a different school.

And I have a very clear memory of, having a feeling of anxiety and worry, does running a business amplify it a hundred percent.

what I do want to say though, and I really do want to lead into, probably the next part of.

This podcast that a lot of the stuff that I experience, I manage now.

I personally don't take medication, but it's something that I haven't felt that I've needed to.

Now there might be a period of time when I do take medication, but I tend to manage my anxiety with constant talking with my psychologist and what's called CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy.

And I've been doing that for well over 10 years.

and for me, anxiety is a bit of a roller coaster.

Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

but think one of the biggest reasons we wanted to get Julie on here is that you don't actually have to feel like this all the time.

You can actually feel better.

You don't go into a hole and never come out.

and men typically won't talk up and I know we're not being gender biased here but our industry is made up predominantly of men and men really struggle at opening up and

that was sort of a big driver for both of us, Hamish, to get Julie on to hopefully we can get some more men talking about this but you spoke about physical signs, Julie.

There's also feelings and they're different, aren't they?

Yeah, that's right.

So, just a quick.

carry on with a couple of extra physical symptoms that somebody might experience.

So they might feel tightness in their chest, might feel things like a racing heart.

sometimes we might feel shortness of breath, or you might kind of have to take a big deep breath in every now and then.

And that's sometimes a symptom of when we're anxious, we often do upper chest breathing.

So we'll do this sort of fast deep breath in.

heavy or quick breathing and we're not fully filling and emptying our lungs.

And so That's a symptom that's really common.

And sometimes we get some shaking hands, as well.

So it can be quite a physical, sort of experience too.

As you were just saying that, do you know what I just did?

I just did a big breath.

And I think, I actually saw Matt do it as well.

And I know that whenever I'm feeling overwhelmed, I do exactly that.

Breathing for me is such a massive part of just stabilizing myself in the moment because if you short breathe, and I'm going to let you explain the

Yeah, sure.

behind it,

Oh, it's awesome.

I remember the first time someone ever told me to do it.

I was like, My breath's not going to change anything and then you do it and you're like, oh, this feels good.

do it with my three year old, right?

Because he's, He's 100 percent one way or 100 percent the other.

And I really am trying to encourage him to really take ownership of that breath.

Even at three years old, I can see him when I say just breathe right into your tummy and just try and focus on that.

And you can actually see him calm down and come into the moment.

It's pretty incredible.

Do you want a bit of science around this?

Yeah.

Yes, please.

our bodies like homeostasis.

We like to be very even across a whole host of things.

And so when we look at our blood pH, that's affected by so many different things.

So if I'm breathing normally, I'm breathing in oxygen.

and I'm blowing out carbon dioxide at a normal rate.

If I'm exercising, I'm breathing heavily and blowing out carbon dioxide at an even rate.

So oxygen in, carbon dioxide out.

Everything stays even.

If I start to do that upper chest breathing that we tend to do when we're anxious, that, sort of breathing, Quicker breathing.

What's happening there is we're not pulling in oxygen and blowing off carbon dioxide at the same rate.

So our blood pH starts to change slightly and you can actually try it.

It's one of the things that we do when we're treating lungs.

Things are panic disorder.

So we actually do a hyperventilation exercise and you'll start to feel you'll I mean maybe you want to do it you'll if you if you're listening at home and you start

to hyperventilate you'll start to feel shaky your legs will feel weird you'll start to feel wobbly you'll get hot in the head you'll start to sweat your chest will

feel tight all of those things just from the breathing And so the reverse of that is that when we start to do that controlled regular breathing, breathing, sorry, we

start to come back to that homeostatic, so that even balance, and it starts to tell your nervous system that you're safe, tells your nervous system that you're okay.

That upper breathing tells your nervous system that, you know, shit's going to hit the fan if we want to put it like that.

It's a worrying style of breathing.

And sometimes breathing's had a really bad rap, especially if you had a message like when you were younger or at any time

when somebody's just kind of turned around and said, look, just calm down, just breathe or some kind of, you know, negative.

When we start to talk about breathing as an exercise, that's why I explain science because it's really important that you understand why.

You're doing it.

And it's not that somebody's saying, you know, you're being hysterical or overreacting or something like that, and just settle down and brave.

It's actually a really powerful tool to tell your nervous system that I'm okay.

I'm fine.

I'm safe.

and so the more you practice, the more you find that your body starts to go, okay, this is when I start to, to feel more settled.

So we're talking about feelings of anxiety, Julie.

I know in the past I've had a panic attack, right?

and I know that the first time I had a panic attack, I had no idea what was going on.

Like I, had this overwhelming sense of doom and I thought to myself, what the fuck is happening?

can you maybe talk us through what's happening in that moment?

Can you actually die from a panic attack?==

episodes.

and we would call that a panic disorder.

that can be associated with a number of different conditions.

so just because you have general anxiety disorder, you don't necessarily have panic episodes as part of your presentation.

we can see panic across a number of things such as, PTSD depression can happen with a number of things.

Definitely.

I think Matt was talking earlier about things that really link in.

That absolutely does.

So what's happening in a panic episode is that your body and mind is responding to, there's not actually a threat there, but your body is going into full, threat response.

Yeah.

And so what somebody might experience, a really common thought is that I'm going crazy, or I'm losing my mind, or I'm going to die.

They're not going to die.

However, the experience of a panic episode is absolutely terrifying.

you can have panic attacks.

pains in the chest, you can have difficulty breathing, breaking out in sweats, often people have this sense of I'm going crazy, I'm losing my mind, really quite intense, feelings.

And we want to, I want to make it really clear that if there are any heart or chest symptoms and you've

not had something like this before on no planet does anybody want to say oh yes it's just a panic episode.

Yep, you want to make sure that you discuss that with your GP and if you're in a state where you're having chest pain the AMBOs never ever ever ever ever mind if you call them and you get that checked out.

So that was my first experience of a panic attack, and at the time I didn't know I was actually having a panic attack and I was at a project and I was like, gee, my heart's going here.

Something's not right.

Sweating, like, didn't feel great.

And so we had a project, it was literally around the corner from Footscray Hospital, so they dropped me off.

And they're like, Oh, do you suffer from anxiety?

And at that time I didn't know, I had no idea.

I was like, no, I'm fine.

Like, I feel great.

I'm not stressed.

Hindsight, very different story, but I've, I've experienced that and taken myself to hospital.

And yes, I kind of felt like an idiot at the end of it, but I was like, you know, I'd rather go and get it checked.

an escalator.

yeah, absolutely Matt.

it's vital, isn't it?

And, you know, the response from Medicos is that we want you to come in and get tested.

get checked.

because on the odd occasion, it is something else in that we can't just put it down to panic episodes.

Good on you for, heading on in, but they're not fun, are they?

they're not.

And then you look back in the past and I was like, I can now pinpoint multiple times in previous to that.

That was like, Oh, that was one there.

And that was one there.

And I just didn't understand what was happening.

And I was like, oh, maybe I'm just having a shit day.

Maybe I'm just not feeling the greatest.

was a time after that, and when I was actually away with a bunch of friends, and I actually had a panic attack.

And luckily enough, one of them, two of 'em are doctors and one's a nurse.

I'm like, you're having a panic attack.

I'm like, no, I'm not.

I'm fine.

And that's how I then from then learned that yes, I've, I've had it.

So, it took me a long time to work out what was going on and it's something that I think that we all probably have somewhere.

you know, often people feel, or sometimes people feel embarrassed, or ashamed, and they have this concept that perhaps they, should be able to handle it or manage it.

They're very tradable.

Absolutely.

There's some really effective treatment that we can work with.

so it's not something that people need to suffer.

By themselves with,

when you're probably going through that moment of anxiety, then like, what thoughts are people having?

Because for me, I didn't know I was having one.

So, if I had had this conversation prior to that moment, what are some of the things that might have been

going through my head to make me understand, how I'm having a panic attack or I'm suffering from anxiety?

Yeah.

So if we, if we separate, so the panic attack is sort of like, or the panic episode is, it's the more extreme end of the anxiety response.

if we're sitting on the generalized anxiety disorder Thoughts and experiences.

There can be a general sense of feeling overwhelmed.

There can be a sense of dread, the feeling that something bad is going to happen.

you can be feeling fearful, that sense of constantly being tense and on guard, what's coming.

there's a low stress tolerance, so sometimes we find that.

You might notice this in yourselves or in other people where, things that you can normally deal with, that don't normally set you off.

We see a bigger reactivities.

there's emotional reactivity and agitation or irritability.

So say for example, how would you say that in real life?

somebody might, for example, I don't know, drop a tool or, Not be able to find a particular piece of equipment that they can find.

Now if normally the response is, Oh bugger, I'll go and get the tool.

Or bugger, I'll just have to go and get extra supplies.

And we're starting to see what looks like a bigger reaction to something that's, that's sort of impeding or there's a barrier to you getting what you want done.

That can sometimes be how we sort of see it present.

Am I going crazy?

I can't control myself.

there might be a real fear about people judging me.

we might also say some stuff around difficulty with concentrating, you know, can't kind of stay on task, can't stick with a plan and difficulty with memory.

So,

He's a very similar diagnosis.

What I've got, anxiety and also a DH adhd.

he talks about, this is his emotional flap jacket.

Now, I'm not a computer game person, but you know, if you are playing a computer game where you, you know, you have like a, that energy bar, right?

You might take a couple of bullets to your chest or something and you see that, metaphorical flap jacket sort of energy come down.

he talks about, you know, he's taken a few hits.

And that, uh, he's low on, emotional energy with this flapjacket, which I, I find it quite like a good way to kind of picture it in my head and a good way to verbalize it as well.

Like if I'm sort of feeling like I've taken a few hits as well, like you're right, there might be times when, I don't

know, a staff member might do something, which ordinarily I'd just be like, oh, well, cool, let's just power on.

But then on another day, I might just completely Respond to it in a way that doesn't equal the event.

So I can certainly speak from, from my experience and it probably leads into, I don't know, another question I wanted to ask you, Julie,

is what other types of behaviors might you see with someone or in yourself when you might be experiencing a higher level of anxiety?

things that you might see people perhaps taking, or you might feel the need to take days off, or taking more days off than you might usually, withdrawing is a really interesting one.

We say that across a lot of mental health conditions, um, but withdrawing.

So often when you're not feeling great.

about yourself.

You often withdraw because you don't feel like you want to be perhaps a burden on people or you don't want to trouble them with your thoughts And it's such a circular

way of being, because the more that you withdraw, the more time and space, the worries have, and the less you're connecting socially, which is one of the most important.

Protective factors across any condition.

Those social connections.

You might see people not completing tasks, or avoiding tasks.

So if you think about if there's worry and concern, what if I don't get this, right?

What if I stuff this up?

What if I can't remember how to do it?

That kind of future based worry.

Sometimes people will actually start to avoid an actual task and we might say some low frustration tolerance.

So similar to what we were talking about before where, Something overtly sort of minor or not too big will happen, and it seems like the response is greater than the stimuli.

So, you know, dropping a tool and somebody might start swearing or yelling and that can be.

that anxiety response,

So if I've sort of noticed some of those behaviors and say a friend or a family member or someone in my team, like how do I approach that conversation?

Like, how do I actually go up to talk to someone about that and say, Hey, like, are you okay?

Is that okay to ask?

Or what would you suggest that say, Hamish and I do in that situation?

you know, 100 percent it is okay to go up and ask.

And in fact, I would encourage you to do that, and be really direct, that there's some really clear principles around what to do.

don't hesitate to go up and chat with someone, and be really clear.

So you haven't seen yourself lately.

Is everything okay?

and finding ways that you feel comfortable to, bring these things up is really helpful.

But what we do want to do is be really clear on what you've noticed and that you're worried.

So say for example, Hey mate, I've noticed that, when you're, trying to complete a particular task, you know, I've seen you getting quite frustrated lately.

Are you okay?

So we want to not in a critical way, but identify something that you've seen or you've heard and that you're worried.

And so I probably want to start this section by saying it is 100 percent not your job to diagnose and it's absolutely not your job to fix it.

It is not your job to fix it, but going up and actually approaching someone about it is a really great way to start this conversation.

I feel incredibly fortunate that I have a friend like Julie in my life and, you know, the information that Julie's

talking about now is really valuable and I'm going to give you a real life example of my own personal experience.

I was quite open about a particular period in time last year when I was feeling particularly anxious, I did withdraw socially,

and my very good friend Julie called me up, sent me a text message, and pretty much said exactly what she just said before.

Are you okay?

You don't seem like yourself.

You seem a little bit off.

And it was actually that moment when Julie contacted me.

that really made me think about my behavior at that particular point in time.

And there was a scenario where I, I didn't force myself, but I actively put myself in a situation which I felt a bit uncomfortable about.

And that was in a social.

Environment and off the back of that engagement with my friends, I actually felt so much better.

Now it wasn't fixed.

There wasn't like a silver bullet that made me feel better after engaging with people.

But what it did demonstrate to me was one, I was loved too.

I had the support of my friends around me and B there is a light at the end of the tunnel, you know, and

I, and I know sometimes when I've been in particularly bad ways, there doesn't seem to be an end point.

And it can be really challenging, but, you know, in my experience, with the right help, there is a light at the end of that tunnel.

So then if someone comes to you, like you go to them and say, Hey, you okay?

And they go, no, your first reaction is like, I need to help you.

how do you go with that conversation?

Because you really, value that person.

you want to help them and get better.

But I know from my experience, it's not the greatest thing you need at that time.

let's say, I wonder if we could all kind of picture somebody in our lives that maybe we might have thought about talking

about, and that might be a great way to kind of conceptualize how you might approach this question or this scenario.

You do want to sort of think about your own discomfort in this particular conversation, because absolutely it feels like what you want to do is problem solve for the person.

and that's generally not what they're going to need or want right at that time.

Most of the time in the early phases, people want to know that it's safe to talk to you and to be able to speak and to be heard.

even as a psychologist, I absolutely have to squash my helpful behavior down sometimes, like I have a genuine urge to go, Oh, you know, sort of, how about this?

How about that?

And we learn to kind of set that aside.

But if we think about going into this particular conversation, we want to ask.

We want to be clear.

We want to be listening.

And in this type of conversation, it's really important when we're normally kind of trying to connect, you'll tell a story, I'll tell a story.

You'll talk about mountain biking, I'll talk about hiking, we'll talk about these sorts of things.

In this kind of conversation, we're not trying to do that.

What we are trying to do is say, Hey, I've noticed this, I'm a bit worried about you.

Did you want to talk about it?

Tell me what's going on.

Because if we try and bat back with our own story, that can sometimes really minimize what somebody is experiencing, even though there's a really genuine desire to go, I want to connect with you.

So I'm going to tell you about my stuff.

You're not a bad person, but we want to think about going into these conversations going, I've seen that thing over there.

I want to spend my time.

in that conversation with that person.

But you're not a bad person for going, Oh yeah, I feel like that too.

Or when I did this, this is what I did.

Because what that tends to do is shut that person down.

I've been that person that's probably tried to solve people's problems in that situation before.

You want to help them.

you think you're doing the right thing.

And it's very, very hard sometimes to support someone without trying to help them.

But what are maybe like 2 or 3 tips you could really give us if we're in that situation again, or if I'm in that situation again?

So really keen into trying to temper that response to share your own story.

Because that will often shut somebody down and really trying to temper your response to go, you know, you need to do this You need to do this.

You should do that.

This worked for me that can really shut someone down It's just asking really gentle what we call open ended questions.

So open ended questions are things like what's it been like for you?

Tell me more.

They're really simple questions to try and elicit a little bit more information about what's going on for that person.

okay if you get it wrong.

So let's say you say something and you start to see somebody shut down or shift.

And I do this too.

Like I'm a trained professional.

Absolutely.

And I'll often go, hey, I think I mucked that up.

I got that wrong.

Can I just check?

Can I try that again?

What that actually does is really demonstrate to the person that you're listening.

So you can't get it wrong, because even in the getting it wrong, it tends to help, the communication, flow.

things like telling people that they don't have to do it on their own, you're here to listen.

asking them what they might like for support, asking questions along the lines of what have you tried already?

are there other things that you'd like to try?

And then after listening to them, we might start to move into suggestions of things like heading to their GP or heading to see somebody to talk about things.

and it's okay to ask the question, like, have you spoken to someone?

Or maybe you should go speak to someone more professional, like, that's okay to say?

Yeah.

So I like that.

have you thought about speaking to someone?

Have you thought about speaking to somebody more professional?

So the nuance there, Matt, is that, and we're kind of talking around asking questions as opposed to maybe you should.

this is really being fine with the conversation.

we talk about open hand conversations.

So it's a very invitational.

Have you thought about what would you think of this?

Would that be something that you'd consider?

as opposed to being directive and you know, we're all business owners, the three of us, and we're used to solving problems and fixing things quickly.

And so our minds tend to go to, here's the way to solve that.

And so we really want to go into these conversations intentionally going, Oh, I've got to kind of put my arm

around that part of me that wants to solve and go, it's all right, mate, you just sit over here for a little while.

I'm going to have a conversation with

what if you feel they need immediate help?

And you feel like they're at risk and you don't want to break that confidentiality that someone's opened up to you and

told you all about their problems and you've listened, but you're like, Hey, I'm actually really concerned for you.

it's a really good question, Matt.

Can I ask you if you thought they were having a heart attack, what would you do?

Would you be worried about their confidentiality?

No, no, no.

And I'd feel totally confident in seeking help because I think in the future I could always explain to them that I had their interest at heart, that it was, I was just looking out for them.

And I think with a clear mind they'd probably look back and be like, thank you.

I really like to put those two things together.

If you're genuinely worried that somebody is at risk, then it starts to shift out of that idea of confidentiality and just think about it like any other health condition.

And so if somebody is at risk, you know, if you think about, the stereotypical person who's at a barbecue

having chest pain and you go, I'm going to call the ambulance and I'll go, nah, nah, mate, don't worry about it.

I don't want it.

And you're going, no, I am going to, Take some action because there is a health risk.

Yep.

And so if you are worried, if somebody has expressed thoughts of suicide or self harm, once again, not your job to fix, but absolutely, if you're worried about risk, then you call in the services.

It's not even my job to fix.

So if I do a risk assessment and somebody is at immediate risk of suicide or self harm, I call in services.

Thanks.

And I'm the psychologist.

So depending on what that service might be, that might be ambulance to the hospital.

It might be the captain.

It might be calling the GP to get them in to an appointment for an admission.

It might be something like that, but even though I am not on the psych, right, it's not my job to fix the risk.

It's my job to go, you're at risk.

And what are we going to do about that?

And just another point to make, you, asking about suicide will not make somebody consider suicide if they're not already considering it.

You can't plant that thought into somebody's head and in fact it's, it's a, I mean, I asked that question multiple times a day at work when I'm doing a risk assessment.

and even if the answer is yes, once again, that's not your job to fix it.

That will be okay.

Let's call in services.

what an amazing conversation today.

I mean, I could talk for hours on the topic of anxiety.

I feel that's something that I'm pretty well versed at.

, I speak for me and Maddy and so we feel incredibly privileged to have you come on and actually talk through this stuff because we do know that it's something that's pretty

common in our industry particularly at this point in time in the industry that there's a lot of uncertainty, going around at the moment in the construction industry.

So thank you so much for coming on and, you know, we will be getting you on as a regular guest.

I feel you've got a lot to add, and contribute to our listeners when it comes to managing our own mental health.

I know we've spoken about this and you don't have to, but you do.

So.

again, thank you for opening up and sort of explaining your sort of story and backstory and, being confident to give other people the confidence to maybe seek some support.

had people reach out to us.

and I think that's awesome that if you can be open that we might encourage more people to be more open.

I mean, just on that, please, you know, the listeners, please don't think that I do this for pats on the back and, you know, to inflate my ego.

You know, I'm happy to share my story.

Because I know how much me talking to a psychologist and talking to my friends and really understanding the feelings that I'm feeling helped me.

I guess navigate through some of the trickier times.

And I guess I just wanted to say generally I'm pretty good, right?

Like it's not something that, is with me all the time.

I would say that there are most weeks where I will feel some level of anxiety, but for the most part, I'm happy.

I have a beautiful family.

I have a great business.

I have great people around me.

but talking about it is certainly something that helps me.

Thanks to both of you.

I think it's, the more we tell our own stories and the more we just make it part of a, you know, a normal conversation, the better things are going to be.

That's certainly why I'm here to just, normalize this.

See